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Find us every Thursday wherever you get

1:00

your podcasts. Are

1:04

one of the exciting things. About

1:06

the car moment is that there are there are

1:08

more ways by far to be generous than simply

1:10

giving money. Because. We can

1:12

share with an indefinite number of people.

1:15

Anything. But you could package and and share

1:18

on line. Which is why the

1:20

way most things that people actually care about. The

1:22

Peace. And pieces video

1:24

or beautiful art, recipes,

1:27

software and the no

1:29

material. Thing. That

1:31

can be shared online can be given

1:34

away in unlimited numbers. What

1:39

could go right? I'm

1:41

zachary Care about the founder of the

1:43

Progress Network and I'm joined as always

1:46

by my co, the Executive Director of

1:48

the Progress Network, Emma Far Valukas. Coming.

1:51

To us, I think from Amsterdam August,

1:53

Emma in her endless peripatetic life can't

1:55

be in one city or one continent

1:57

or one culture at any given time.

2:00

We're. Hoping for Asia some point in the not

2:02

too distant future. But for now. Answer.

2:05

And will have to do. This. Podcast

2:07

for those of unless they regularly

2:09

you know is animated by a

2:11

desire to cut through the noise.

2:13

The negativity. We are

2:16

attempting to. Take. A

2:18

different tone about what's going on in

2:20

the world. Thought: animated by outrage.animated by

2:22

beer, but animated instead by a more

2:24

measured. What are we doing That

2:27

may in fact lead to a future

2:29

of our dreams and hopes and not

2:31

teacher of our fears? So what are

2:33

we all do collectively to try to.

2:36

Navigate ourselves in a better direction

2:38

and some of that stuff. The

2:40

sensibility are you have heart conversations.

2:42

It's hard not having our conversation.

2:45

As a you deal with legit ears,

2:47

it's not pretending that those fears have

2:50

no legitimacy. And the

2:52

question of her one talks and what

2:54

stories we tell and how we tell

2:56

their stories and film. I

2:58

think has an outsized role in shaping.

3:01

What? That Arc is gonna be so on that

3:03

were of roads. Li says this conversation today with

3:06

someone who has been at the forefront of how

3:08

we tell stories and how we tell stories online.

3:11

And how we shape. The.

3:13

Narratives about the world in

3:15

the most effective and cochin

3:17

and powerful and entertaining. Interesting

3:19

when. Said say we're gonna talk

3:22

to the head as can Chris Anderson.

3:24

He had a long career and journals

3:26

and and publishing before he became the

3:28

curator at Ted Conference Is in two

3:30

thousand to add a can't Watch a

3:32

Ted Talk and last twenty or so

3:35

years. I don't believe that you've been

3:37

living on internet tag. Global reach has

3:39

large part due to Critters leadership. And

3:41

so are we talking ten today about

3:44

heads rolling as very porous and device

3:46

and internet culture as well as his

3:48

new book which is caught infectious generosity.

3:51

And it's a it's. A manual

3:53

a guy a pass for

3:55

turning the internet into a

3:57

self replicating world changing place.

4:00

Or. A positive impact around and negative impact

4:02

that many people see coming from the

4:04

internet today. Chris.

4:10

Anderson. It's a pleasure to have you on

4:12

what could go right to day I know

4:14

for you is a little bit of a.

4:17

Of. Of switching of chairs given that

4:19

you're usually the one. Asking

4:21

the questions and conducting the interview. So I

4:23

hope you'll. Take. Your years

4:25

of of being on this side of of

4:28

the fence and and on are now. I

4:30

mean we'll see our goes. I guess we'll

4:32

see how it goes if is very nice

4:34

to be here and hello I am I

4:37

guess your new book and sexist generosity. What?

4:39

What was the the genesis of writing

4:42

about that some and I know in

4:44

in many ways you've been trying to.

4:47

In various forums, various Ted forums

4:49

and your own speaking and voice,

4:51

you have been articulating many the

4:53

themes in this book. From.

4:56

Many, many many many many years.

4:58

So what? Like why now? What

5:00

was the Genesis? So.

5:03

The if this is was. Outset:

5:07

The crucial few years

5:09

of Ted happened. Carson.

5:12

Said long time ago as two thousand six

5:14

to. In. The two years following the.

5:17

When. We. Had

5:19

this dilemma? Pay his. Which.

5:21

Was that you know we had a conference.

5:23

He was. seems like it we were non

5:26

profit we were to, we were supposed to

5:28

running for the public good and suddenly we

5:30

have this opportunity to share the content of

5:32

the conference. With. The World. On

5:34

to this in a curious new. Technology.

5:37

Called online videos that for the time as

5:39

a silver saiki you know excels in the

5:41

corner of your laptop. But. That

5:43

was making progress and we thought we could

5:45

do this. but should we? We were wide

5:47

that it would kill the conference that why

5:50

would people come to conference they thought they

5:52

could see. The. Talks for free or. But.

5:55

Because we are non profit and I had

5:57

a. good risk taking team around we

5:59

thought we should go for it. We went

6:01

for it and something kind of

6:03

amazing happened. Instead of demand for

6:05

the conference being killed, it

6:08

rocketed. The reason it rocketed was because these

6:10

talks went viral and suddenly people around the

6:12

world knew what Ted was. It

6:15

really got me thinking. I'd heard Ted talks

6:17

about how in this internet age, the

6:20

rules around what you give and

6:22

what you hold on to had

6:25

changed. I hadn't really felt that. After

6:27

this experience, I felt

6:30

that, wow, this is really radically

6:32

different. We started at Ted adapting

6:34

this as a strategy, give away the biggest

6:36

thing you could think of and be amazed

6:38

at what happens next. We did

6:41

the same thing by giving away our brand, Ted,

6:43

and allowed people around the world to

6:45

organize these Ted events with an X

6:47

added in TedX. A

6:49

free license, they control the content

6:51

we didn't. It was high risk and it

6:53

screwed up horribly in some cases. But

6:56

net, net, it was incredible. It allowed

6:58

our little org to suddenly be doing

7:00

3,000 events around the

7:02

world and many of the best Ted

7:05

speakers came through these events, not

7:07

through our own curation. That

7:09

experience of saying the rules

7:12

have changed in this connected age.

7:15

We can be much, much, much,

7:17

much bolder about how we think

7:19

about generosity. Actually, it's

7:22

in our own long-term

7:24

interest to do that.

7:27

That was where I started. It was

7:29

also like a return to the good old days of

7:31

the internet. It's like we're in this, the

7:34

history of the internet goes, everyone was so excited about it.

7:36

It was a way to connect, it was a way to

7:38

share. Then we got into the

7:40

second phase, which was the internet as

7:43

an amplifier of hatred and outrage and

7:45

negativity. Is this like we're trying

7:47

to enter a new phase or is it

7:50

you're trying to balance out that image of the internet

7:52

with something else? You're

7:56

exactly right. The Back

7:58

End, the Autism, There

8:00

are lots of people who are pretty optimistic about. What?

8:03

Be into that could do. I was certainly

8:05

one of them. And. They're adding.

8:07

Truth is that for a lot of the

8:09

last ten years that the story then set

8:11

so technology generally. Has been one of.

8:14

Crushing. Disappointment. I.

8:16

Think it's correct to say that

8:18

Net Net. Social. Media, for

8:20

example, has caused more division.

8:23

And benefit to humanity. And

8:26

that's that's such a crying shame. See.

8:28

A sense of the most vicious pressurising this book.

8:30

Is. To say I can't stand giving in

8:33

to the. Nurses, I

8:35

don't think. Humans have to given

8:37

to that narrative. I don't think it's written and

8:39

you were in stone. That. Social media

8:42

and the inset will for always be

8:44

a destructive force. I think he sings

8:46

are always changing and what I've noticed

8:48

is that there's enough going on under

8:50

the radar. To give me

8:53

hope and believe that we actually could

8:55

turn the tide here. Censored.

8:57

That that is the much they spend On one

8:59

hand. it says intellects conviction that are connected aids

9:01

changed the rules of the game. But.

9:03

Then the observation that dead and

9:05

unintended consequences of that and that.

9:08

Often. What was being spread

9:10

was not kindness. All. Knowledge

9:13

of the good kind, but rather reasons

9:15

to be fearful of each other. That

9:17

was awful. What could we do about

9:19

it? And south. So. Yeah, so the

9:22

in many ways that the riddle at the heart of the

9:24

book is, how do we make. Good. Compelling.

9:27

As things stand, evil is compelling. Good is

9:29

boring. We'd. Need to do something about

9:31

that. Yeah. In I once

9:33

wrote a book called peace be upon You about

9:36

Muslim, Christian and Jewish coexistence and. I

9:38

mention the title to my friends and. They.

9:40

Said oh my god them Us Bureau short book

9:43

because you know as and I actually sat in

9:45

the bucket. The reason why there's no history pieces

9:47

pieces born. With. There's no, there's

9:49

no kinetic movement in peace. The story pieces

9:51

like two people wake up one morning and.

9:55

Talk. About. The weather over breakfast to

9:57

go about their days in that than they say

9:59

goodnight and fargo. The Report in Southern California.

10:02

And. I want

10:04

to push back a little. Trusted Harris is a member

10:06

of the Progress That worker you've talked tune of talk

10:08

to over the years and I've. You. Know he

10:10

has been one of the people. Who has

10:12

really raised the at the clock sons

10:14

of alarm about the negative and deleterious

10:16

effects of social media and the whole

10:19

way in which. Least. The

10:21

past ten years has seen him in the his

10:23

the array of a pernicious. Rise.

10:25

Of of the worst of human instincts fueled

10:28

by the algorithms of. And and

10:30

the economic incentives. Are. In

10:32

I wonder though whether or not. You

10:34

know, to one degree were in a cup

10:37

half empty cultural moment both in the United

10:39

States and globally. And so. We're. Much

10:41

more predisposed to see all the downsides.

10:44

And. And I do wonder. If it's more

10:46

like. If. You have a

10:48

a glass of clear crystal clear water.

10:52

And you add one drop of black

10:54

dye. The. Entire.

10:57

Glass becomes clouded even though

10:59

the preponderance of it remains

11:01

clear. Water. And

11:03

I and I wonder to what degree we're. We're.

11:06

Kind of overdoing it with the. He.

11:08

Knows Emma talked about as you've just reflected on

11:10

all the negative things that have. Been.

11:13

Born out of social media. And.

11:15

Then kind of forgotten the daily at a million

11:18

one that one of the jokes that one could

11:20

make about. Twitter.

11:22

An accent elon musk is. Everybody's

11:25

bitching about how bad that platform

11:27

is on the platform. Actually

11:31

of late last people on the platform seem

11:34

to be seem to me to be quite

11:36

excited about his and finding. In.

11:38

A lots of great content on that. So much

11:40

depends on what you actually look for. I mean

11:42

look. I think this whole conversation has to start.

11:44

With. An understanding of why is is

11:47

that so often the stories. We.

11:49

Hear that we tell each other are making us.

11:52

Blue. And upset And I think this

11:54

to. Super powerful distortions

11:57

that had causing that. one of them

11:59

is. Reasonably well, which is

12:01

just the sort. The psychological. Tendency.

12:04

In propensity, we have to latch on to

12:06

the dramatic. If it bleeds, it leads, you

12:08

know there's a reason why. As stories. Of

12:10

destruction and violence and threat. Ah,

12:13

what leads the news? It's because that's

12:16

what sells wire tapping into deep biological

12:18

instincts that we have to a instant

12:20

attention to a danger. Oh. My. God.

12:22

With. Outlook, outlook out and and the good stuff can

12:25

can wait. So there is that and I think

12:27

that's one. Very. Real issue that terrific

12:29

Met up to get out early on

12:31

how to exploit and and social media

12:33

algorithms have. Discovered. That in a

12:35

rhythm at odds and attending the people

12:37

who have very good at. communicating.

12:40

The lot in the threatening way have made them

12:42

social media saws, That's. Half of it,

12:44

the other half is almost a more fundamental

12:46

fact about the universe itself that you alluded

12:48

to as Aca wishes. The. Fact that

12:50

in a sentence. Could

12:53

happen slowly. That happens quickly.

12:55

In. A Most of the good things in

12:57

the world happen because they are built

12:59

over a long period of time. Someone.

13:02

Dreams of an idea of the future. They.

13:04

Think about it for a year. They then start

13:06

talking to others about a persuade the people get

13:08

excited. They're able to raise money over money as

13:10

they build it. And. Sunday Have this in

13:13

was built. And. Then boom

13:15

in one second, something

13:17

can destroy something that's

13:19

incredibly complex. So. That.

13:21

The relevance of that is this. Most

13:23

news media are asking this question: What

13:26

is the most dramatic thing that happened

13:28

in the last few hours? The

13:31

most dramatic things that happen are

13:33

by nature, almost always bad. Because.

13:35

Good doesn't happen dramatically in Quincy.

13:37

Good has to be socially constructed.

13:40

So. You had this. Crazy. Paradox

13:42

were so much of what we tell

13:44

each other has just happened and is

13:46

the news. Is. Nasty. And

13:48

there's a big problem with this, which is that.

13:51

We. Are storytelling creatures. The stories

13:53

we tell each other sake

13:55

who we become. And. to

13:57

an extent become self fulfilling so this is this

13:59

It terrifies me. We are in

14:01

a situation where we are telling

14:03

ourselves stories that are

14:06

needlessly driving us all

14:08

to a darker place. You know this. I

14:11

mean, in a way, that's what this whole podcast stands for. But

14:14

in general, people don't know

14:16

this. And the tragedy is

14:18

that just under the radar, there actually

14:20

is a lot of really amazing and

14:22

wonderful stuff happening that if we

14:24

were to pay more attention to it and if

14:26

the people who were doing it understood

14:29

better the playbook of how you make

14:31

good things go viral, how you

14:33

make generosity go viral, for example,

14:36

we would hear those stories instead and

14:38

we would think about each other and

14:40

about the human race and about our

14:42

future very, very differently.

14:47

We'll be right back after this break. The

14:52

government of Kenya pledged to end gender-based violence

14:54

by 2026. The

14:56

Ministry of Health in Uganda is trying to eradicate

14:58

yellow fever. It's ambitious to make these

15:00

kinds of pledges, but it is much harder to

15:03

achieve these lofty goals. Are these

15:05

leaders really delivering on these promises for women and

15:07

girls? Tune into a new

15:09

season of the Hidden Economics of

15:11

Remarkable Women, a podcast from Foreign

15:13

Policy, as reporters across Africa meet

15:15

courageous women holding leaders accountable in

15:17

various sectors, including healthcare, startups, and

15:19

the government. Listen to Hidden Economics

15:21

of Remarkable Women wherever you get your

15:23

podcasts. History doesn't repeat

15:26

itself, but it often rhymes. That

15:28

may be a Mark Twain quote, but it's just as true today

15:30

as when he originally said it. My

15:32

History Can Beat Up Your Politics is a podcast

15:34

that compares and contrasts history to the current events

15:37

of today. Host Bruce Carlson has

15:39

recently done deep dives on fascinating topics like

15:41

the fall of the Soviet Union, which sets

15:43

the stage for today's geopolitics, the man who

15:46

was in prison and still won a million

15:48

votes for the presidency, and the mystery behind

15:50

George Washington's involvement, or lack thereof, in the

15:52

Bill of Rights. My History Can

15:55

Beat Up Your Politics offers deep context to

15:57

all these historic stories, Especially those that

15:59

you may think of. you know wealth and is

16:01

particularly adept every leading them to current events, so

16:03

don't miss out. Listen to my history. Can beat

16:05

up your Paul Sex on. All platforms. Welcome.

16:12

Back to Mexico right? I

16:14

have gone i'm a you

16:16

rubbish you can see the

16:18

camera so I'm just so

16:20

series largest ya of the

16:22

nice and as if people

16:25

from health so are you

16:27

on a tiger about ten

16:29

thousand dollars I'm not joking.

16:32

Israel So ah yeah so

16:34

live about a million discover

16:37

side. gonna do some good.

16:41

If I give you the choice either by

16:43

thirty Lamborghinis or help save the lives of

16:45

ten thousand people in one year. which is

16:47

your. Wednesday.

16:52

She didn't. people like. Supers.

16:57

I'm very interested to hear your

16:59

take on someone like Mr. Beast

17:01

who might be as sick as

17:03

examples on let's figure out how

17:05

to make philanthropic efforts serve good.

17:09

Good actions go viral and his his videos are

17:11

fun in a way that a lot as. says.

17:13

Good news content or generosity content

17:16

is. Not finally get goose. I

17:18

can be was on the street one day. In some way

17:20

someone comes up in size. Been to Paris and gives me

17:22

a thousand bucks. Whatever. But. He also gets

17:24

a lot of pushback, right? I think, particularly

17:26

because. The. Generous acts that he

17:29

is putting up on his youtube channel

17:31

and on social said Sen as it

17:33

is for downing upon himself rights and

17:35

we're hardwired to view that suspiciously. so.

17:38

Yeah. Really curious your thoughts on him and any

17:40

others like him when I didn't even aware of many

17:42

others like him. There. Are

17:45

many like him? Amazon. Amazon.

17:47

A masterpiece and his wife look. One

17:49

of the key things to winning this

17:52

battle of allowing good things to come

17:54

in sexes is to tap into human

17:56

emotion. The. Reason the bad things

17:58

go viral is not because. That is

18:00

because they evoke. Strong.

18:03

Emotions Quickly. And it's emotions which fundamentally

18:05

cause me to say well, I want

18:07

to share this. Or. I want to pay

18:09

more attention to it. So. She has to

18:11

get out the playbook to make amazing

18:13

things. Connect with people, make the

18:15

makes I said move them and in in

18:17

some cases. And out that as

18:20

an incredible skill. Know. To

18:22

do that. He's tapped into. You

18:24

know, some sort of pretty basic human

18:26

emotions. You know she has a blind

18:28

person has recently been given the site

18:30

that they're setting a tear. How does

18:33

that make you feel. That. Makes

18:35

you feel inspired so you share

18:37

it. But to someone who's. Sophisticated.

18:42

They look at that may go yeah,

18:44

but they're exploiting that poor blind. Person

18:47

You know that they're using that

18:49

tear to manipulate an Amtrak views

18:52

for video. So. I

18:54

think what you have to do it's

18:56

it's It is absolutely true that are

18:58

there's a class of video the is

19:00

exploitative west some and dashes out you

19:02

know does something that's apparently good and

19:04

the person seals exclusive. And so

19:06

far the most of the subjects who must be Cydia

19:09

I do not believe. Feel. That I think

19:11

they are excited at what happened. That great

19:13

for the happy and that lease And I

19:15

think Mister Beasts himself. A Having

19:18

spent. A while talking for example

19:20

to the man who runs his. Flat.

19:22

To be. Dharma. Goalless. He's

19:25

convinced that he he's for real.

19:27

She's committed for his life to.

19:30

using. The pardons it to do good

19:32

in the world, the money he makes he

19:34

is going to or simply contribute back. Except

19:37

for. And I was stuck

19:39

with People have been inspired by Mr

19:41

Beast to do videos that also has

19:43

sort of turn the tide on said

19:45

a certain social media trends. I

19:48

think he's to sweating a whole generation of kids

19:50

coming through. That generosity could be cool and I

19:52

think there's a lot of people coming through who

19:54

are sick of the mean this of the into

19:56

that in the precisely the reason they love these

19:58

videos. Is. Because they. The offer

20:00

an alternative to a solicit

20:03

cynical gray, older. Well.

20:05

You know? here is how you could use Inset the right

20:07

way. So. One of the issues. I.

20:09

Think we have to do with more broadly. Is

20:12

to let go of our

20:14

perception filter on generosity. Traditionally

20:17

you are right. Amount you

20:19

iraq at someone and if you can

20:21

find some additional motivation other than the

20:23

purity of the heart of giving something

20:26

away just because they are being generous,

20:28

then we could quickly get cynical. But.

20:31

Every act of generosity. Ever.

20:33

In history has always had some

20:36

additional motivation. Even if it's silly

20:38

to solve a consensual, we do

20:40

things always for. A reason.

20:43

I. Think. In the era

20:45

where in especially. Because.

20:48

Generosity can have. So. Many

20:50

additional. Effects that actually

20:52

accrue to the benefit of the

20:55

person giving. They basically enhance reputation.

20:57

Precisely. Because they can scale we

20:59

snacks embrace them as not be cynical

21:01

about this. And that suddenly

21:04

kids this freedom to welcome so

21:06

many more acts as being contributors

21:08

to the public. Good. And

21:11

by the way, the mental state of doing

21:13

that is itself an act of generosity instead

21:15

of. Taking a cynical view of

21:17

people's actions. Give. Them the benefit

21:19

of the doubt. You. Know and we all

21:22

start to feel better about each other. Some

21:24

of that fundamental belief is that we're in

21:26

an era where. It's in your

21:28

own interests to be generous. It will

21:30

boost your reputation when actually boost your

21:32

lungs and happiness. The. Fact that

21:34

that is part of your motivation is

21:36

one hundred percent okay. and if we

21:38

spread that knowledge more people against do

21:40

that the world gets better. So that's

21:42

why I said. That. It

21:45

had such a theory. You mention the. That.

21:47

Tendency put her in real time

21:49

to discount and he acts of

21:52

generosity if. There's. evidence

21:54

of self interest and that certainly

21:56

true with. Very wealthy

21:59

people giving. Lots of money today in

22:01

the United States which has engendered of. Really?

22:04

A cacophony of criticism and

22:06

yet. A few generations removed.

22:09

People. Tend to forget all that and.

22:11

Subway. Enjoy the the of the largest

22:14

many people go to Carnegie Hall it's

22:16

of listen to a concert music and.

22:18

I. You know, I don't think many of them are. Sitting.

22:21

Back in their seats. Guy off, You know, Andrew

22:24

Carnegie did this whole thing and mano know whether

22:26

we should be here and whether this is good

22:28

or. People. Gotta the universe is

22:30

Chicago and I don't think are spending Daves

22:32

walking across campus Really deeply worried about John

22:34

the Rock of Hours. Legacy.

22:37

As the. I. Get the irritation. Honestly,

22:39

Like I get that people are irritated

22:42

that billion as for example, With.

22:44

Us for why should that will that money?

22:46

Secondly, Why? Should it be they

22:48

who decide how to make the world

22:50

a better place in it all seems

22:52

unfair and annoying. And yet.

22:55

If. That is our only position. Nuts will be

22:57

stop. We stop slits and we stop and

22:59

saying. That. Should be billionaires. Let's

23:01

just change the tax most tax it

23:03

away. And do that. Will

23:06

find. Do that, but good luck with it.

23:08

It's gonna. you know that there are many reasons

23:10

for that is an incredibly hard thing to pull

23:12

off. They'll probably take cute decades. Meanwhile.

23:15

There is thirteen trillion dollars a

23:17

private capital sitting there. You

23:20

want that just sitting there accumulating a

23:22

making the billionaires who hate even richer

23:24

for about a difference to us wishes

23:26

to say. Your. Philanthropy may not

23:28

be perfect, but bring his own. You are.

23:31

we want more of it, not less. And

23:33

by the way, It should be

23:35

a public conversation. About. How.

23:38

Billionaires, Can spend their money but

23:40

let's let's such to embrace it. Not

23:43

shy away from it. And. I

23:45

think that would be a much

23:47

healthier situation. I think many of

23:49

the ultra rich. Would.

23:51

Welcome. Input and the

23:53

chance to be involved in a broader

23:56

conversation about. how they should spend their

23:58

money i think many recognize that they've been incredibly lucky

24:00

to have it and that they do

24:02

have an obligation to give back. But

24:04

the current cultural moment

24:06

makes it incredibly hard to do that.

24:09

And so the unintended consequence of this

24:11

level of cynicism is that

24:13

we're just letting the rich get richer instead

24:15

of actually engaging with them to do some

24:18

good in the world. And the amount that

24:20

could be achieved with that philanthropy is mind-boggling,

24:22

I think. Well, I think the

24:24

billionaire pushback too is a bit some

24:27

of its transparency, right? And some of

24:29

its accountability. It's curious to hear you say that

24:31

you think that they would love to hear, you know,

24:33

a crowd consensus about what to do with their money.

24:35

I would love to hear more about that because I

24:37

think what

24:39

people kind of coalesce around with someone like Mr. Beese, for instance,

24:41

I mean, first of all, he was just like a regular

24:44

dude before he started out, right? But

24:46

also, at the end of the day, he is accountable

24:48

to his audience. I mean, I guess he could get

24:50

rich enough to a point where he doesn't really need

24:52

anyone anymore. He's investing the money, let's

24:54

say, but, you know, if he loses his audience, he

24:56

loses everything basically.

24:58

And that kind of accountability doesn't really exist

25:01

when it comes to people that are independently

25:03

wealthy. Yeah, I

25:05

think one reason why I said what

25:07

I said about the rich welcoming input

25:10

has been my experience running a thing called

25:12

the audacious project, where we

25:15

specifically go out and try

25:18

to identify truly amazing philanthropic

25:21

projects. Like we try to find the

25:23

world's best change makers and challenge them

25:25

to dream bigger than they've ever dreamed

25:27

before. What could you do if money

25:29

was no object? And then select from

25:32

hundreds of sort of applications, if

25:34

you like, a small number

25:36

of imaginable, credible

25:39

plans that can be turned into,

25:41

say, like a five-year project. Now,

25:44

we take those two groups of

25:47

high net worth individuals. And

25:50

so these are projects that donors themselves

25:52

have not sourced. We've sourced them. But

25:55

when we put them to those groups of

25:58

people, they get really excited. embrace

26:00

the idea of supporting someone that

26:03

is big and bold and has

26:05

been independently due diligence. They

26:08

give to it anonymously. I

26:10

mean, in terms of the public,

26:12

as a group, they see what their peers are doing.

26:15

But in the conversations that

26:17

go into making those decisions, they

26:20

are all about, will this

26:22

work? Will it be effective? Will

26:25

the world get benefit as a result in

26:27

some way? Whether it's millions

26:29

of children avoiding worm

26:31

disease or the elimination of trachoma, the

26:34

eye disease, or the creation of a

26:36

new branch of science that could have

26:38

incredible future potential. It's

26:41

those conversations. It's not what's in it for me.

26:43

Not for one moment is it that. I think

26:45

big philanthropy is really hard to do right. I

26:48

think it's incredibly hard to do right. And I

26:50

think people would be

26:52

shocked at how much not

26:56

every wealthy person, but certain wealthy

26:58

people are determined to try

27:00

to play a role in doing it the

27:02

right way. We should not give up

27:05

on big philanthropy. We should try and have

27:07

a much, much, much better conversation about

27:09

what it could achieve. And I think we've

27:12

only scratched the surface of what it could

27:14

achieve. And for those

27:16

who are listening, in Chris's book, Infectious Generosity,

27:18

you do have a whole chapter about this

27:20

and these questions about philanthropy

27:22

and the challenges of it. And you do address some

27:24

of these, I think you

27:27

preemptively address some of these critiques about the

27:29

nature of wealth and philanthropy. But you also

27:31

have insights into what

27:34

we can all do to foster a community

27:38

of philanthropy and instinct of philanthropy. In

27:42

many ways, you're simply enhancing what has been

27:44

true in religious communities historically.

27:46

That was one aspect of at

27:48

least, I think

27:50

all Eastern and Western religious traditions have

27:52

had a philanthropic giving

27:55

all, giving back. That's

27:57

been ingrained in human culture, which I think is

27:59

really important. We tend to forget in the modern

28:01

age in a meaning. Human.

28:04

Beings try to deal with

28:06

wealth, generosity, community, Private.

28:08

And public is not. A.

28:11

A A conundrum that's endemic to

28:13

our particular moment in time. It's

28:15

it's. Human beings have

28:17

been bouncing around these needs and instincts forever.

28:20

And. One of the exciting things. About

28:23

the car moment is that they're up. There

28:25

are more ways and oh by far to

28:27

be generous than simply giving money. Cause.

28:29

We can share with an indefinite number

28:31

of people. And the same, but

28:34

you could package and and share on line. Which.

28:36

Is. By. The way most things that

28:39

people actually care about. Peace and knowledge

28:41

to pieces. Video or

28:43

beautiful art or. Recipes.

28:46

Software in A and the Is. No

28:48

material. Thing. That.

28:50

Can be said on line can be given away

28:53

in unlimited numbers like at the Plaza. Mind that

28:55

that can be done and I think. More.

28:57

People and sent them or organizations than

29:00

currently and tub think about it. Could

29:02

really benefit by thinking about how they

29:04

might give away something spectacular. they might

29:07

be some surprised and amazed at what

29:09

comes back. As a result I I

29:11

think it could be Transformers it to.

29:14

Someone's. Life that me to and

29:16

organizations like to ask that. Question.

29:19

Because people have incredible assets and they

29:21

don't. The. In of the the surprise

29:23

of what can happen I think can

29:25

easily be endlessly. And

29:27

as they get the gift of our attention

29:30

to lay I think gets forgotten about a

29:32

lot. Nice partitions about social media. Here.

29:34

Used to be a. Call

29:37

From Aware Speeches. Expensive and listening

29:39

is t that. Now it's Rivers said

29:41

speeches everywhere because the murders publish them

29:43

or something put out. Onto the

29:45

inner everyday. But listening is expensive and getting

29:47

someone's attention of engagement is really the most

29:49

powerful thing. And. it

29:51

sounds so fluffy to say that a

29:53

really is true that as users we

29:55

hold a lot of power in a

29:58

system as not often acknowledged It's

30:01

absolutely true. And where we give our

30:03

attention to really matters, I mean, the fix of

30:06

the internet, if you like, will come about,

30:09

I think, partly from the companies,

30:12

social media companies making certain changes.

30:14

My own view is that the

30:16

mess that was created was not intended.

30:19

There are commercial reasons why it's hard to extract

30:22

from it. But I don't think it was intended,

30:24

and I think there's lots of people in the companies who are

30:26

working on trying to solve the problems.

30:28

But a big part of the problem can be done

30:30

by all of us, just by who

30:33

we choose to follow, the kind

30:35

of language we use when we

30:37

respond to things online. If the

30:40

pendulum can swing a bit and

30:42

people can find joy

30:44

and excitement in seeing and bringing

30:47

out the good side of the internet, I

30:49

think things can change really quickly.

30:52

It's not like we have to go from black

30:54

to white. There's already so much happening

30:57

under the radar there that just needs

31:00

that better amplification. Social

31:03

media, it is rightly, we rightly blame it for

31:05

so many things, but look under the surface.

31:07

And there are amazing people out there sharing with

31:09

the world dozens of examples of

31:11

the awesomeness of the universe, like

31:14

Giving Tuesday. How awesome is it that

31:16

a single hashtag spread around the world

31:18

and persuaded millions of people

31:20

to donate literally billions of dollars

31:22

to hundreds of thousands of organizations

31:24

and is now going beyond that

31:26

to spread a global movement of kindness,

31:29

I mean, or of what they've

31:31

achieved. We'll

31:37

be right back after this break. This

31:42

episode is brought to you by Shopify. Forget

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32:43

Welcome back to Mexico, right? In.

32:46

Your book you do have a. Or.

32:49

You to a manifesto for yourself of. A

32:51

pathway. For. A.

32:54

Reformed Internet. Of course, at this

32:56

point, the Internet is simply a

32:58

digital. Variant of.

33:01

All. Of us, right? And it's here

33:03

we have. So much of our lives

33:05

are now being lived digitally. And

33:08

that's only going to increase both. And

33:10

I'm a Our world and a A

33:12

I world right where. I

33:14

don't I don't see that trend changing it

33:16

on the next twenty years. But the the

33:18

question. the news. Is. That change

33:20

really gonna happen from. Facebook.

33:24

Google Accent or a suddenly radically changing their

33:26

business models are going to be much more

33:28

productive. What we would think of in political

33:31

terms as grassroots activism getting it's just human

33:33

being said you. their behavior. Yeah.

33:36

I think is. Gonna. Be a mix of of both.

33:38

Minute to me that the key things. Not

33:41

forgotten. His. I

33:43

think that the holidays that was built on a very naive

33:45

you. Human. Nature that. People.

33:48

Are people. They'll make choices. If we go

33:50

along with their choices. What can go wrong?

33:52

You. Know. People. Aren't people?

33:55

People are confused. Mixes of

33:57

all kinds of different ingredients.

33:59

Does. lots of us inside each

34:01

of us. And specifically,

34:04

I think we've built

34:06

an internet that empowers our lizard

34:08

brains over our reflective cells. That's

34:11

the piece we need to flip. And

34:13

that is doable through careful design decisions

34:15

and it's doable on an individual level

34:18

by us each paying more attention to

34:20

how we actually plan. Daddy

34:22

Kahneman has written very clearly about System One,

34:24

System Two thinking. And I think so much

34:26

of life is about giving, empowering

34:29

your System Two self over your System One

34:31

self. It's like whether you

34:33

look at diet, exercise, how you plan your

34:35

day, but definitely social media.

34:37

It's our lizard brains that get angered

34:40

and irritated and respond in a resentful

34:42

and all the rest of it. Our

34:45

reflective cells are well capable

34:47

of overcoming that, but we have to give them

34:49

a chance. Funny enough,

34:52

the same idea carries over when

34:54

we start thinking about AI. Often,

34:57

the best way to get a good

34:59

response out of chat GPT-4 is

35:01

to say, stop, think, think

35:04

carefully, count to 10 and then answer.

35:06

And it will actually direct it to

35:08

a different part of the language model

35:11

and you get reflective thinking out instead

35:13

of just instinctive thinking. One

35:15

reason why I feel urgency around this book

35:17

is that how we

35:19

train AIs right now is

35:22

going to impact the entire future of

35:24

humanity. And I think we're in

35:26

danger of teaching them to

35:29

think that humans are level one

35:31

beings and to just watch human

35:33

behavior. You see how they get

35:35

irritated with each other? This is

35:37

who we need to optimize for. No, no, we're more

35:41

sophisticated than that. We need

35:43

to find a way

35:45

to train AIs on

35:47

our best selves and our ourselves. I

35:51

love that as a way of thinking

35:53

about it because so much of the current debate

35:55

around AI is binary

35:58

in black and white. gonna

36:01

be a tool that will. Enhance

36:03

humanity are going to be a tool will

36:06

destroy humanity and. Often

36:10

the debates were down into a

36:12

not just cup half full cup

36:14

empty but depending on your individual

36:16

predilection. That then

36:18

shapes the entire conversation right if you're if

36:20

you're pretty disposed to seeing the downsides you're

36:22

gonna think that i is. Is

36:25

protect potentially the final tool of our

36:27

destruction and if you're. Tend

36:31

to see the best and things you know you

36:33

might see it is this is gonna unlock amazing

36:35

human potential but your way of

36:38

articulating that which is. How

36:40

we enter

36:42

into literally the structuring of this

36:45

environment and what what

36:47

the raw materials that we're putting in and

36:49

what what assumptions were making. Will

36:52

become its own sets of self-fulfilling prophecies

36:54

rather than there being one you know

36:56

one pathway or another. I

36:58

do think part of this is a cultural moment. 1999

37:03

we've been having this conversation about

37:05

a theoretical other universe. We

37:07

would have been talking about the endless

37:10

potential of unlocking humanity solving disease genetically

37:13

mapping all of us down

37:15

to the last

37:17

strand of dna so that we can.

37:20

Perfect individualized medicine you know all the things

37:22

that we were talking about a potential and

37:24

now we're talking about terminator and

37:26

the rise of machines and you know

37:28

we're on the verge of the apocalypse.

37:31

And probably untrue

37:35

there will be an end to the world at some

37:37

point but i really do like that

37:39

framing of it you know that there is a. What

37:43

assumptions we make about human nature will in

37:46

many ways dictate what these

37:48

tools are there they are of

37:50

us they're not external to us.

37:54

You think that's happening. I

37:56

think you can actually see in a lot

37:58

of responses of. eyes that they

38:01

are crying to find

38:03

that reflective response. In fact, they've been

38:05

fine-tuned to do that to some extent.

38:07

If you poke one and say, say

38:11

something rude about identity X or

38:14

whatever, they'll come back and say, well, I

38:16

mean, come on, there's actually very good things to be

38:18

said about that. They

38:20

get accused of being work or whatever. But

38:22

I think what they're trying to do is to find that

38:26

step-back way of not falling

38:28

into the classic human biases,

38:32

if you like. Are they

38:34

being successful? Not all the time, but it's an

38:36

important effort that's going on there. I think we're

38:38

going to have to continue with that. You could

38:41

picture the hopeful version of the future is this.

38:43

It's that AIs are not subject

38:45

to the kinds of emotions

38:47

that I referred to earlier that drive

38:49

our obsession with all

38:52

this narrative around threats, and anger, and disgust

38:54

with each other, and tribalism, and so forth.

38:56

They're not driven by that. They don't feel

38:58

any of that at all. There

39:00

is every reason to think that

39:02

we could build a world that

39:04

is based on more reflective values.

39:06

Wow, if we could do that,

39:09

that. You could

39:12

genuinely picture a world where AIs are

39:14

helping us to be our best selves. Like

39:17

how they've trained Alexa not to answer questions about the

39:19

Holocaust, right? It's like, we're not going to go there.

39:21

We don't want to help you go down that direction.

39:25

Christmas is shift gears a little bit to

39:27

talk about TED. It doesn't relate to this

39:30

conversation that we're having about the

39:32

good sides and the bad sides of the Internet.

39:34

I feel like has a pretty

39:37

universal, amazing brand

39:39

reputation as far as the stuff that

39:41

you guys put out. There

39:43

was, I think, a relatively rare

39:45

brouhaha towards the end of 2023 about

39:48

Coleman Hughes' talk. People

39:52

weren't aware what happened is basically that he

39:54

gave a talk for TED about colorblindness.

39:56

There was a lot of internal dissent

39:58

from inside TED about. publishing it and

40:01

there's a sort of chain of

40:03

events after that. There was

40:05

a lot of criticism around Ted and

40:07

around you with that, but you

40:09

also gave in a soundly, gracious response that I

40:12

think earned a lot of respect. But

40:14

now that you've had some space to reflect

40:17

from that and probably having seen all the

40:19

different sides of the internet during that,

40:21

how do you see Ted's role

40:24

in an internet space that does

40:26

seem to many people increasingly less

40:29

comfortable and flexible with views,

40:32

right? With the complexity of views and

40:34

perspectives. Yeah, I think Ted's

40:37

been through what many organizations or

40:39

companies in America, Europe have

40:42

been through, which is trying to figure out how

40:45

you navigate divisive

40:47

political waters. Like

40:49

it or not, most of the world has

40:51

become much more tribal in the last seven

40:54

years, especially some of it

40:56

driven by social media, some of it driven by lots of

41:00

subjects that are taught at university

41:03

and so forth. So any

41:05

organization that recruits

41:08

college graduates and then tries to

41:10

build things has wrestled with different

41:12

versions of this issue, which is

41:15

that a lot

41:17

of people can't see the world

41:19

in a way that just

41:21

says that there's a wide array of views there.

41:24

There is a right view and a wrong view.

41:26

The stakes have got really high and

41:28

a lot of people want to view the

41:31

world. The cup of take us before you'd have

41:33

caught of a political lens. Ted

41:36

has traditionally been non-political. We've taken the view that

41:38

politicians come and go, ideas are

41:40

forever, but it's been impossible in the last

41:43

decade to be non-political. Some

41:45

people have accused Ted

41:47

over the last 10 years of

41:49

swinging to the left a bit,

41:51

becoming quote, quote. There's

41:53

probably some truth to

41:56

that if you look at the

41:58

relatively small. talks that

42:01

can be placed on a political spectrum,

42:04

those talks, more

42:06

of those use the language of the

42:09

left, if you like, than of the

42:11

right and are devoted to things like

42:14

different kinds of social justice type causes

42:16

and so forth. And so

42:19

that has caused criticism from some quarters.

42:21

For other people, that is absolutely the

42:23

most essential ideas we're spreading that Ted

42:25

should be focused on. Internally,

42:28

we've had, I think, a really healthy debate

42:30

in the last years. We recognize and we

42:32

want as a nonprofit org, we're a nonpartisan

42:35

org, we want to be open to and

42:37

we want to appeal to a broad

42:40

audience. And what that means

42:42

is often the very language that we

42:44

live in or some of our employees

42:47

live in, we have to pay a

42:49

special attention to, all

42:51

of which meant that I for

42:53

a while was trying to find

42:55

voices who would be

42:57

clearly centrist or right of center.

43:00

So that if we were to cover political issues,

43:02

it wasn't just from that sort of progressive side.

43:05

Common Hughes, I'm a fan of,

43:07

I think he's a brilliant person,

43:09

I've supported him on Patreon and

43:11

I think even though some of

43:13

his thinking is controversial, he's incredibly

43:16

insightful. Whenever I

43:18

hear his podcasts on anything

43:20

that is outside the

43:23

politics of race, for example, and in

43:25

scientific areas, I think, wow, he's absolutely

43:27

got a good insight there. His

43:30

talk was the case for

43:33

colorblindness and he was arguing how that

43:35

we need to adopt that stance instead

43:38

of the more recent trend

43:40

towards very specifically

43:42

looking at racial identity in terms

43:44

of addressing whether it's who you

43:46

employ or who you recruit to

43:48

a university, etc. But

43:52

the thing is this issue is really

43:54

complex and people who Have

43:56

lived with it and worked with it over

43:58

a couple of decades. Many people

44:00

have come to a very different conclusion

44:03

that color blindness has sailed and that

44:05

yeah, actually, we do need to pay

44:07

attention to race and to be more

44:09

proactive. In. How

44:12

it is across the board and in in

44:14

policies that we make in the area. And

44:17

so there was a big debate on what should we do

44:19

with this. A. Mantra for a long

44:21

time as been ideas were spreading. We. Have

44:23

to accept that their ideas we weren't

44:25

always know which had the ideas were

44:27

spreading. What we know is some ideas

44:29

worth debating. And that there is a

44:32

lot of person on this topic and it's important

44:34

that we. Open. To a broader

44:36

audience and I think that the ideas worth

44:38

spreading and that is worth debating as a

44:40

really. It's. Not a

44:42

coffee. It's an enhanced and on that. Many organizations

44:44

have been struggling of us. The results. In.

44:46

Intense device of moment in the New York Times

44:49

as years ago and. Gems. Better the

44:51

Up at at around the Tom

44:53

Cotton editor about issues in insurrection

44:55

active suppress protesters. And. That may

44:57

not have been an idea. Worth spreading

44:59

but it was clear and idea that

45:02

was being debated and and sat. The

45:04

challenge is. Not. All ideas

45:06

that one spread are you endorsing a You

45:08

are acknowledging as you did before, whether it's

45:10

whether you call level one level to as

45:12

you just described, Whether it's acknowledging. That.

45:15

Human beings are, I think that

45:17

he said the messy mix of

45:19

internal impulses. The we all contain

45:21

multitudes. And. Funny

45:24

way to honor that in a way that. Yes,

45:26

To bargain, have judgments and they have same and

45:28

they have. That. The fear that

45:31

idea once unleashed can lead to

45:33

all sorts of bad things and

45:35

action. or true i it. Is.

45:37

But one of the ways in

45:39

which we collectively. Figure.

45:42

Out our direction. Is

45:44

usually in the clear light of day and

45:46

not in the hidden corners of the dark.

45:49

So. I hope

45:51

you keep doing that. I hope you find a way.

45:54

That. No one has really sounded good Way to

45:56

square the circle of. broadening

45:58

out the spec of ideas

46:01

that need debating, particularly

46:03

in a world where people are, as

46:05

Emma talked about, more people than ever have the

46:07

ability to have a voice, but that

46:09

means there's also a lot more voices and a lot more

46:12

noise and a lot more division back to that part of

46:14

human nature. I actually think that one of

46:16

the big acts

46:18

of generosity in the age that we're in is

46:21

from people who are willing to try

46:23

and bridge. If the

46:26

actual truth is that the

46:28

majority of people in

46:31

America and in Europe are

46:33

not extremist, politically. They

46:36

see wisdom from all quarters.

46:39

They just don't have a chance to

46:41

have their voices heard because the louder

46:43

voices, because of this dynamic of if

46:46

you can use the language of fear

46:48

and threat and disgust and

46:50

anger, that is what gets you the

46:52

followers and the votes. That has led

46:55

to this completely artificial and horrible situation

46:57

where the conversation is being led by

46:59

the more extreme viewpoints. Courage

47:01

is needed for what

47:03

is an incredibly important act of

47:05

generosity, which is to seek to

47:08

bridge, to listen to each other

47:10

with respect and to give

47:12

people the benefit of the doubt. This

47:14

is so important. It is so important that

47:16

more people try and do this.

47:20

It's hard to do. We've tried occasionally and got

47:22

it wrong to some extent. We're

47:24

not stopping. I think Ted is obviously

47:26

determined to be one of the media orgs,

47:28

if you like, that is determined to carve

47:30

out a sort of centrist space

47:34

and to have the conversation even

47:36

if it's painful. Well, on that,

47:38

I guess we'll say thank you

47:41

for the conversation and it is

47:43

one that I hope we continue. Thank

47:46

you, thank you, Dr. Nirman. Thank you for

47:48

what you're doing. I think it's

47:53

this question of looking for the

47:55

possibility space of things that Could

47:58

be good in this world. It in English

48:01

you can see those things. No one has

48:03

the energy of motivation to work towards them.

48:05

And so that's how humans what? Now you

48:07

you you stop by. Exploring

48:09

that possible she says looking for something

48:12

that can excite a group of people.

48:14

And. Put them in that direction. Industry

48:16

tell those stories to ourselves. We.

48:19

Ain't got, I hope so. I

48:21

guess What if they. Thank. You so much Chris!

48:23

Thanks so much Press night taker. Well,

48:32

that was a conversation that I

48:34

simultaneously don't have a lot more

48:36

to say about and could also

48:39

have had. Another two hours

48:41

of this is over. That's it

48:43

for us this week. We want

48:45

to thank you again for listening.

48:47

We want comments, questions, go to

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a more constructive direction. So. Thank

49:07

you Emma thank you all and will talk

49:09

to say. Thank you! See

49:11

next it. Like

49:20

It array is produced by and you see then

49:22

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49:24

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