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Try This from The Washington Post wherever

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you listen. Elections

1:03

are the golden thread that bind

1:06

together the fabric of all of the rest

1:08

of our society, whether it's business, the

1:10

arts and sciences, technology, law,

1:13

medicine, all of those things. Those

1:15

fabrics are bound together by this

1:18

communal act of elections, that golden

1:20

thread. If you pull that

1:22

golden thread out, the entire

1:25

fabric disintegrates, especially when

1:27

we operate in the system that

1:29

we do. American democracy is bound

1:31

together by faith, the faith

1:33

that we have in one another. You

1:35

don't always get the result you want. It's one of the

1:37

beauties of this thing. Everyone sometimes

1:40

wins. You

1:42

don't always get to win, but you always get

1:44

to participate. You always get to move forward. And

1:46

we do get to progress as a society because

1:48

of that civic faith. And

2:00

I am joined by my co-host for this

2:02

podcast, Emma Varvalukas, the executive

2:05

director of The Progress Network. And

2:07

this is our weekly deep

2:09

dive into things going on in the

2:11

world that are not quite as grim

2:13

and not quite as dystopian and not

2:16

quite as despairing as

2:18

the general climate would suggest. We

2:21

do not always pay enough attention to

2:23

the things that are going on that

2:25

are going well, or to the people

2:27

who are making sure that the problems

2:29

that we all acknowledge, whether those are

2:31

cultural, political, or economic, are

2:33

being attended to. That there

2:35

are people attempting to solve problems

2:37

that, yes, people have created

2:39

and therefore need solutions of

2:41

our own creation. And there are lots of

2:44

people who are focused on those solutions and

2:46

we think it would be a good thing

2:48

to pay more attention to those solutions. And

2:51

on that note, as we enter a fraught election

2:54

year, fraught is going to be an overused word,

2:56

but it's probably an absolutely

2:58

apt one for 2024. How

3:01

our elections go this year is going to be one

3:04

of the great issues, questions,

3:06

conundrums, and how

3:09

we ensure that people have

3:12

confidence that whatever happens

3:14

at the ballot box towards the end of

3:16

the year is a reflection of how people

3:18

voted is going to be an

3:22

open question until then. Today,

3:24

we're going to talk to Adrian Fontez.

3:27

He is the 21st Secretary of State

3:29

of Arizona, and he's been that since

3:31

2022. He's

3:33

the Chief Elections Officer for Arizona, so he

3:35

is very focused right now on making sure

3:37

that there's going to be a safe, secure,

3:40

and accurate election. Before

3:42

he was Secretary of State, he was the

3:44

County Recorder for the Mayor of the County,

3:46

now the second largest voting county in all

3:48

of the United States. And as

3:50

County Recorder, he was the first Democrat elected there

3:52

in over 50 years. So

3:55

we're going to talk to him today about what

3:57

exactly he and his office are doing looking forward.

4:00

to the 2024 presidential election, as we all

4:02

know. Adrian

4:12

Fontes, it is such a pleasure to have

4:14

you on today. You know, we mix and

4:16

match a bit on this show between culture,

4:18

politics, international, national. We

4:20

have not, over the

4:22

past bunch of episodes, focused so much on

4:24

what's going on in the United States, partly

4:26

because we attended a bit to what's

4:29

going on in the Middle East, which seemed a legit

4:32

focus for the fall and for the

4:34

future. We've talked about what's going

4:36

on culturally on campuses, but we have not

4:39

focused as much on what's going

4:41

on politically and electorally. I

4:44

think partly out of a sense

4:46

of reasonable dread at the degree

4:48

to which everyone's going to be

4:50

over focusing, obsessively focusing, depressively focusing

4:54

on elections in 2024 in the United States. And

4:56

we were pacing ourselves and

4:58

trying to, you know, do things like celebrate

5:00

Christmas and usher in the new year with

5:03

a degree of hope rather than a modicum

5:05

of despair, or maybe it was a modicum of

5:08

hope rather than a degree of despair. But either

5:10

way, we are now turning

5:12

to the delightfully fraught

5:16

subject of politics. And you are

5:18

the Secretary of State of Arizona. I

5:22

think most of us, other than maybe

5:24

a brief moment in 2000 in the hanging Chad election,

5:29

didn't really think about secretaries of states

5:32

as a meaningful public office. I'm

5:34

not saying that in any way to, you

5:37

know, lessen the magnitude of the office you

5:39

now hold. I just mean from a public

5:41

perspective. I think most people didn't even think

5:43

about secretary of states unless you were in

5:46

the weeds of public service and

5:48

state politics. And now

5:50

after 2020, you

5:52

know, you're a rock star. It's

5:54

like everybody wants to be Secretary of

5:56

State and everybody wants to hate the

5:58

Secretary of State for not. somehow

6:01

magically transforming an electric

6:03

result into something they want. So

6:06

why the hell did you run

6:08

for office and do this? I mean it's like

6:10

everybody you're it's like

6:12

walking around with a new and

6:15

sudden bullseye to be in this

6:17

particular role. Well

6:19

first thanks for having me in second it's not

6:21

a new set of crosshairs that we you know

6:24

find ourselves in. I was really mad back in

6:26

the spring of 2016 for

6:28

that presidential preference election in Arizona

6:30

where here in Maricopa County the

6:32

greater Phoenix area we found ourselves

6:35

suffering through four, five, six hour long lines

6:37

and so I decided to run for county

6:39

recorder which in Maricopa County Arizona at

6:42

the time we were the

6:44

third largest voting jurisdiction in the

6:46

United States of America and election

6:48

administration was or I should

6:50

say the lack of it was what failed so many voters

6:52

some estimates say that up to 130,000 people were denied the

6:56

right to vote just because they planned

6:58

it poorly and so that motivated

7:00

me to run for that office. I

7:03

became the Maricopa County recorder we

7:05

put 500,000 more voters

7:07

onto the voter rolls because we actually opened

7:09

up access for traditionally

7:11

underserved communities and people of color and so

7:14

forth and I lost

7:16

my reelection bid in 2020 which

7:19

was really interesting because both of the ballots that I

7:21

was on and shared that space with a certain someone

7:23

I won when he won and I lost when he

7:25

lost but I didn't cry about it when it was

7:27

over for me. I decided to

7:29

move on and I was the chief deputy

7:31

recorder down in Pima County the greater Tucson

7:33

Arizona area for a time and

7:35

then I decided to run for Secretary of State because

7:39

you know we needed someone who had actually

7:41

run elections back in this spot in fact

7:44

Arizona is a bottom-up state the

7:46

counties actually run the elections the

7:48

secretary is really a regulator we

7:50

kind of make sure everybody's doing their jobs well but I

7:53

wanted to run because I felt a real heavy sense

7:55

of duty none of the people that seem to be

7:57

emerging back in early 2021 had

8:00

any experience doing this. And we, you know,

8:02

at the counties in Arizona, we needed somebody

8:04

who actually knew what the hell was going

8:06

on. And so I decided to

8:08

run and, you know, we put forth the effort

8:10

and we beat one of the biggest election denialists

8:12

that has ever existed. And so

8:14

I'm back in the fray. It's been a year now. And

8:17

we've built an amazing team and I'm really, I'm

8:19

really excited to be continuing to push forward and

8:21

helping Arizona have a successful 2024. So

8:24

obviously we're heading, which Zachary

8:27

more than hinted at into a very

8:30

nerve-wracking election. And, you know,

8:32

given your statement just now that Arizona

8:34

needed someone that had election experience, what

8:36

did you learn as county recorder that

8:38

you're bringing into Secretary of State now,

8:40

particularly looking at 2024? Well,

8:44

without getting too much into the weeds,

8:46

what I learned was how Arizona's elections

8:48

work from an actual hands-on perspective. You

8:50

know, we've had a lot of secretaries

8:53

of state here in Arizona and

8:55

across the country, really, who come

8:57

right out of the legislature. They come out

8:59

of some other elected office. There are really

9:01

more policy walks and politicians than actual administrators,

9:04

actually the folks who ran the warehouses, who did

9:06

the HR work, who did the training, who found

9:09

the facilities and made sure that the

9:11

technology was working well, that the facilities

9:13

and the technology were secure. You

9:15

know, there's a whole lot of work that goes into

9:17

election administration that a lot of people don't even think

9:20

about, particularly in a jurisdiction as big

9:22

as Maricopa County, which, by the way, is now

9:24

the second largest voting jurisdiction in the country. And

9:27

so, you know, it's

9:29

fine to have policy experience. That's all well

9:31

and good. But it's a very

9:33

different thing to be able to bring

9:35

to those counties, for example, in

9:37

Arizona, that need the kind

9:39

of leadership at this level that understands what they're

9:42

going through, that are willing to ask

9:44

the questions of other parts of state leadership

9:47

that need to be asked from the county's perspective. At the

9:49

end of the day, they're the ones that do the work.

9:51

So that's really

9:54

the unique perspective, I think, is

9:56

so valuable and really having a technical

9:58

knowledge of how things are going. work. And every

10:01

state is different, of course, but this is

10:03

what Arizona needed. I'm very grateful that the

10:05

voters put me here. And I

10:07

think it's reflecting in the way that the counties

10:09

and this office are now working together. So

10:12

you're clearly going to be, I mean,

10:15

if current trends hold, and there's no reason

10:17

to believe that they will not, the

10:20

2024 presidential election will

10:22

likely come down to maybe

10:25

five states, right? Pennsylvania,

10:29

Michigan, Wisconsin, Georgia,

10:34

and Arizona. Maybe Nevada, maybe

10:36

not Pennsylvania, but almost

10:38

certainly Arizona, no matter

10:40

like what version

10:43

of reality, whether it's Trump and Biden, whether

10:45

it's, you know, Republican A in

10:48

Democrat B, Arizona is currently

10:50

one of the most, I

10:53

suppose, if you're being neutral about it, fascinating.

10:56

And if you're being partisan about it, troubling.

10:58

A mix

11:00

of American democracy right now,

11:03

right? It's basically everything

11:05

in a microcosm and Maricopa is

11:07

probably even more everything in

11:09

a smaller microcosm. I mean, is there

11:11

a way for you in the role that you're in to

11:15

create a somewhat different climate where

11:17

people at least don't go to

11:20

the recourse of if

11:22

my person loses, therefore

11:24

the election was unfair

11:27

or not correctly run or

11:30

some version of that argument? Yeah,

11:34

that's already part of the culture of

11:37

the extreme, right? And, you know, that

11:39

sore loserism that is sort

11:41

of embedded into a small portion

11:44

of the body politic, and it's just something we're going to

11:47

have to deal with. So it would be impossible for me

11:49

to be able to, with a straight face, say that we're

11:51

going to be able to eliminate all of that, right? So

11:53

our losers are going to be sore losers no matter what.

11:57

But I think one of the things that we can

12:00

do and we are doing pretty

12:02

well is starting with

12:04

the basics, right? Starting with working

12:06

across the aisle with the legislature of

12:09

the six pieces of legislation that our

12:11

office is pushing. Five of them are

12:13

being sponsored by Republicans. One

12:15

of them is a Republican who's an election denier

12:18

and has sued me several times. And he's sponsoring

12:20

one of my bills. And that's

12:22

because we're being pragmatic. We're being reasonable.

12:24

We're being realistic. I'm not... What

12:27

is that bill actually? It's a

12:29

bill to allow this office to

12:31

certify elections officials in

12:33

even numbered years. It used to be

12:35

that we could only run our annual

12:38

certification, our biannual certification in even or

12:40

odd numbered years. And

12:42

that was to really avoid kind

12:44

of getting involved during the election year. But

12:46

now, because we've had such a loss

12:48

of election officials, we're going to have to

12:51

do it in the odd and even numbered years. I'm sorry. Have

12:53

you had a loss of election officials? So many people

12:55

are saying, this is too intense

12:58

and I don't want to be in this?

13:01

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Arizona

13:03

is one of the epicenters of this. 92%

13:06

of our voters are going to

13:08

be voting with elections officials that were

13:11

not there in 2020

13:13

during the last presidential cycle. 11,

13:15

12 of our 15 counties lost one of the top

13:17

two senior election officials. The issue

13:20

one report that came out last fall

13:22

put out information about how bad it

13:24

was here. So we've lost a significant

13:26

number of our elections officials

13:29

and that experience really, really

13:31

matters. And so we're

13:33

doing all of the training that we can. And

13:35

in this particular circumstance, getting back

13:37

to the original question, we have one

13:39

of our fiercest election deniers allowing

13:42

us, because it's forbidden in

13:44

statute right now, opening that up so that

13:46

we can actually certify election officials during the

13:48

even numbered major election years, which

13:50

was originally not permitted. So this

13:53

gets back to the notion that we are slowly

13:56

but surely chipping away at

13:58

the rancor. We're doing it

14:01

because we're being reasonable. We're being

14:03

very data driven in our approach

14:06

to legislation. That puts

14:08

us in a space where we are familiar

14:11

with folks on the other side,

14:13

even the election denialists and we're

14:15

working with them. That just makes

14:17

it harder for them to

14:19

continue down that path of conspiracy

14:21

theories and lies especially when

14:23

they're working directly with us on so much.

14:30

We'll be right back after this break. History

14:36

doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.

14:39

That may be a Mark Twain quote, but it's just as true

14:41

today as when he originally said it. My

14:43

History Can Beat Up Your Politics is a podcast

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that compares and contrasts history to the current events

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of today. Host Bruce Carlson has

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recently done deep dives on fascinating topics like

14:52

the fall of the Soviet Union, which sets

14:54

the stage for today's geopolitics, the man who

14:56

was in prison and still won a million

14:59

votes for the presidency, and the mystery behind

15:01

George Washington's involvement, or lack thereof, in the

15:03

Bill of Rights. My History Can Beat

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Up Your Politics offers deep context to all

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these historic stories, especially those that you may

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think you know well and is particularly adept

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at relating them to current events. So don't

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miss out. Listen to My History Can Beat

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Up Your Politics on all platforms. The

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by 2026. The

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Ministry of Health in Uganda is trying to eradicate

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yellow fever. It's ambitious to make

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these kinds of pledges, but it is much harder

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to achieve these lofty goals. Are

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these leaders really delivering on these promises for women

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and girls? Tune into a

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Hidden Economics of Remarkable Women wherever you get

15:51

your podcasts. workers

16:00

and voters being intimidated. Unfortunately there are

16:03

people out there who again think it

16:05

is in their best interest to intimidate

16:07

folks. But if people are going to

16:10

go as our election workers leave after

16:12

16 18-hour days defending

16:14

democracy, counting the votes and have

16:17

their picture taken and their license

16:19

a picture of their license plate

16:21

taken that is unacceptable and it

16:24

has to stop. That

16:27

was Bill Gates, the former chair of

16:29

the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors,

16:31

outlining threats to midterm election workers

16:33

last fall in Arizona. So

16:37

I guess those election officials or the new

16:39

election officials are some brave souls, right? For

16:41

instance you had people showing up in tactical

16:43

gear at the ballot drop boxes in the

16:45

2022 midterms. Do you have a sense that

16:47

that fervor has died down at all outside

16:50

of the legislature, right? Or just ordinary people,

16:52

ordinary Arizonians? Or are you expecting

16:54

something of that same order of magnitude for

16:57

the upcoming election? Are these Arizonians by the way? It's

17:00

Arizonans. Arizonans, forget the I.

17:03

You bought too many vowels on that one. I'm

17:05

grief, we love vowels. Yeah,

17:07

I mean vowels are great when you have just the

17:10

right number. But Arizonans writ large

17:12

are I think getting sick

17:14

of the nonsense I guess is one way of saying it. But

17:17

there are still some of those true believers, some

17:19

of those faithful and they still

17:21

believe very strongly in their Second Amendment right to

17:23

carry firearms wherever they will. And

17:26

sometimes they decide to do it near ballot drop boxes, which

17:28

is what we saw in 2022 just

17:31

as close as the last election cycle. And

17:33

that really is something that I

17:36

think will to some degree

17:38

potentially be dying down. But look, we

17:40

got to be prepared for it. But

17:43

it's not just security at our facilities, which

17:45

we saw in November of 2020. It's

17:47

not just threats against elections officials, which

17:50

we've seen manifest not just on social

17:52

media, emails, phone calls, in board meetings,

17:54

etc. But one of

17:56

our elected officials had her dogs

17:59

poisoned. as a means of

18:01

intimidation here. So what we're

18:03

doing is we're approaching this in the

18:05

multifaceted way that the situation requires where

18:07

we closely with state, federal and local

18:09

law enforcement agencies and some

18:12

of our really important

18:14

partners that are watching the threats, particularly

18:16

via the internet from international spaces

18:19

like Russia and

18:21

China and North Korea and

18:23

Iran, who all want to kind of mess

18:25

around with our information infrastructure.

18:28

We're approaching it from sort of that multifaceted

18:30

angle. And we've also got the new emerging

18:32

threat of generative artificial intelligence and its capacity

18:35

to sort of upset the apple cart in

18:37

a much more quick way. So that really

18:40

is an amplifier for misinformation and disinformation. It's

18:42

not a new threat. It's a new way

18:44

for these other older threats to manifest.

18:47

So we've got our hands full. And one of

18:49

the hard parts for us is

18:52

that in

18:54

2017, Elections Administration

18:56

was designated critical infrastructure by the

18:58

Department of Homeland Security. We

19:01

still don't have sustained federal funding for it. So

19:04

it's as if the dam

19:06

upriver is not funded. The

19:09

village has just got to scrape it together so that it

19:11

doesn't end up bursting. Like the school buses

19:13

are risking going over the bridge every time because

19:16

there's no funding for that critical infrastructure. It's as

19:18

if the airlines got to figure out a way

19:20

to make sure that they're coordinating their

19:25

air traffic well on their own

19:27

because there's no money for it. Elections

19:30

Administration does not have sustained funding

19:32

from the federal government. And in many

19:35

states, it falls short as well. So we're

19:37

doing the best with what we have. And

19:39

I've been ringing this bell for a while to try to

19:41

get folks to understand that if they want to protect and

19:43

preserve our democracy, we got to pay for it. Yeah.

19:46

I mean, this is obviously a greater issue

19:48

than just elections funding. I mean, it's true

19:50

with the electricity grid. It's true with a

19:52

lot of sort of things that Congress says,

19:54

this is absolutely

19:56

vital, and then there's no funds to

19:58

back up its vitality. Well,

20:00

the interesting thing in particular in this one, sorry to

20:02

interrupt you, is that this is the only sector

20:05

of critical infrastructure that has no

20:07

sustained federal funding. The only

20:09

one is election administration. We

20:14

call this show what could go right because we're trying to look

20:16

at things from an eye

20:18

toward what are our problems that

20:20

we're solving and not just what are our problems that

20:22

we're wallowing in. And it's

20:25

certainly true, and you alluded to this earlier,

20:28

that the election that preceded your being

20:30

in office, the 2022

20:32

midterm elections, in

20:35

many ways did not engender the kind

20:37

of conspiracy blowback.

20:41

It was closely contested in many states, and

20:43

many people, for the most part,

20:45

seem to have accepted this as a free and fair

20:47

election and accepted the

20:49

verdict of the voters, both when

20:52

it was in their favor and not. And not, obviously,

20:54

there were the outliers that you're talking about and there were

20:56

the extremes. But for

20:59

us, we're pleasantly surprised that 2022 was

21:01

what we would consider a normal-ish election.

21:06

I mean, outside of Arizona,

21:08

that may be true, but

21:10

Carrie Lake still thinks she's the governor, and

21:12

Abe Holliday still thinks he's the attorney general.

21:15

And so in Arizona, the election

21:17

denialism is still large,

21:19

it is still very present, and

21:22

it is still quite annoying from

21:25

this perspective. I

21:27

do agree with you that nationally,

21:29

the fever, I won't say, has broken, but it

21:31

seems to have peaked,

21:33

and it's very good to see.

21:36

Hopefully that'll seep into Arizona here

21:38

real quickly. And

21:40

an interesting question, and not

21:42

a partisan one as much as we

21:44

don't really have a sense – I mean, unless you're in Arizona, you don't

21:46

have a sense of Carrie Lake,

21:48

who had been the gubernatorial candidate, who

21:50

lost in 2022. She

21:54

challenged the results and

21:56

was forcefully pushed

21:58

back. backed by the

22:00

courts, by Arizona courts in her claims,

22:03

not just politely, right? I mean, it

22:05

was sort of shut down. Like there's

22:07

no merit. Yeah. I

22:09

mean, she was, she was put down by

22:11

the voters and the courts just validated what

22:13

the voters did. I do

22:15

see that movement here in Arizona from

22:18

the voters. Look, my opponent was soundly

22:20

rejected. He was an oathkeeper. He was

22:22

an anti-Semite. He was an absolute

22:24

election denier. He was present at

22:26

January 6th at the insurrection against

22:29

the US constitution in Washington, DC.

22:32

And he was resoundingly rejected by the

22:34

voters. And so it

22:36

particularly, of course, this office was concerned, you

22:38

know, the sort of the keeper of democracy,

22:40

at least in Arizona. And

22:42

so I think that the, I think again

22:44

that there's some positivity on the horizon, but

22:47

it's, it's up to the voters, right? It always

22:49

has been. And thank goodness it continues

22:51

to look that way. So

22:54

coming back to the AI comment

22:56

or mention, you know, AI is

22:58

definitely on everyone's minds these days. And

23:01

we have deep fakes to contend with.

23:04

We have misinformation, disinformation, all kinds of

23:06

stuff going on. How are

23:08

you prepping for that? Like

23:10

what does, what does a deep fake prep look

23:13

like? Because my understanding is that you've been

23:15

training with deep fakes of yourself and other

23:17

people that are well known in the, in

23:19

the landscape in Arizona. Well

23:22

we have seen deep fakes before voice

23:24

deep fakes, audio video deep fakes, but

23:27

you ain't seen nothing yet. The technology is

23:29

advancing very, very quickly. Chat

23:31

GPT 4.0 is going to make way

23:33

to chat GPT 5 before we

23:35

get to next fall. And

23:38

it's going to be a doozy. It is very,

23:40

very capable of producing some really, really amazing things,

23:43

but it is also that and many

23:45

other AI tools are also capable of

23:47

producing some really scary stuff. So what

23:49

we're doing is really sort

23:51

of coming back to basics. At the end of

23:54

the day, that's what this is

23:56

really all about. We have always

23:58

voted on paper ballots. here in Arizona,

24:00

we're going to continue to do that. That

24:02

piece of paper is the

24:04

physical manifestation of the voters intent to

24:06

vote. We can preserve and

24:08

protect that system no matter what AI does.

24:11

And we can preserve and protect those ballots

24:13

no matter what AI does. We can make

24:16

sure that we're working closely

24:18

with our law enforcement and our

24:20

media partners. We had that tabletop

24:22

exercise that you mentioned with

24:24

our election administrators. We're going to

24:26

host another one after our presidential

24:28

preference election in March for

24:30

law enforcement. And then later, we're

24:33

going to host one for the media so that we can

24:35

make sure that everyone is on the same sheet of music.

24:38

And when we do see information pop up,

24:40

we'll know exactly where to go to verify

24:42

that these things are true to get the

24:44

right trusted information out to individuals in

24:47

those communication networks so that we can stave

24:49

off a lot of what AI is

24:51

doing. And there's no playbook for this, right?

24:53

This is going to be the first election cycle that we

24:55

really have to deal with this. And it's going

24:57

to be a heck of a challenge.

25:00

But we are working directly with our

25:02

Arizona Counterterrorism Information Center. We're working directly

25:04

with the Department of Homeland Security at

25:06

the state and the federal level, the

25:09

Critical Infrastructure Security Agency. CISA is a

25:11

great partner for us. And

25:13

we're working with just about everybody else. EOJ

25:16

Law side and the FBI, we're

25:18

working with Arizona Department of Public Safety, all

25:20

of our local law enforcement agencies and sheriffs

25:22

and stuff. The notion here

25:25

is as long as we get

25:27

everyone, A, speaking the

25:29

same vocabulary, B, running

25:32

through the checks and balances, again, just

25:34

the basics, then we will see

25:37

be able to stave off these threats. And

25:39

at the end of the day, with that

25:41

philosophical approach, I think we're going to be

25:43

in good shape. Will we still see

25:45

these little bugaboos pop up here

25:47

and there? You bet. We're expecting it. And

25:49

that's why we're preparing for it. We don't know exactly

25:51

what it's going to look like or sound like, but

25:54

we are doing our level best to make sure

25:56

that every election administrator in the state is prepared

25:58

and supported that we

26:01

can deliver a good election in 2024 for

26:03

the state of Arizona. What

26:05

does the tabletop exercises look like? Like if

26:07

you could just put us into the room

26:09

for one of those really quickly. Yeah,

26:12

that's a great question. So the military

26:14

and law enforcement run tabletop exercises before

26:16

big events. So for example, what we

26:19

did was we did a Friday

26:21

afternoon and a Saturday morning. On Friday afternoon, we

26:23

ran through in about an hour and a half,

26:25

two hours worth of time, several

26:27

months worth of simulation between

26:29

X date and the day

26:32

before election day. And the

26:34

calendar was ticking in a series of minutes. Like

26:36

I think every day was like four minutes long

26:39

or something like that. And

26:41

then every tick of the

26:43

clock, we would inject something that

26:45

happened. So some fire

26:47

went and took out one of

26:50

the bridges in Arizona. While that transportation route

26:52

suddenly goes away for ballots by

26:54

mail, how are we going to make sure that we

26:56

can get things back and forth? Something

26:58

happens on the power grid over here. Something happens. There's

27:00

a fire in a printer warehouse over there. So

27:03

we do these little injects. It's almost like Dungeons

27:06

and Dragons for election administrators,

27:08

right? And we get to play

27:10

the dungeon master and we throw the team into

27:13

certain scenarios. You know, we bring out this monster

27:15

and that monster and we see how they deal

27:17

with it. But what we're doing

27:19

is we're using all of our players.

27:21

So everything from county managers, emergency

27:24

services people, law enforcement or election

27:27

administrators across the board to

27:29

make sure that their lines of communication are really

27:31

solid and then we're throwing these scenarios

27:33

at them so that they can train into

27:35

or at least be familiar with how to

27:37

deal with something that might pop

27:40

up unexpectedly. Look, it's a lot of

27:42

fun. Even though you're

27:44

dealing with really sort of like really harrowing

27:47

real world type of scenarios, the

27:50

gamification of it is

27:52

great training for when folks actually have to

27:54

look at these scenarios, actually have to deal

27:56

with these issues. And it is

27:58

a I'm phenomenally proud. of the work that we did. Like

28:00

I said, we had over 200 participants

28:04

at the TTX from all over the

28:06

whole state of Arizona, and it was

28:08

a really phenomenally well-received exercise, particularly

28:11

the AI portion, which I thought was a lot of fun.

28:14

Now Arizona has had its own

28:16

challenges in terms of how long

28:18

it takes to tabulate the results,

28:21

which has led to

28:23

mainstream media, certainly

28:26

on election nights, trying to figure out

28:28

from the polls, from the exit polls,

28:30

which way Arizona is going to go.

28:32

It's led to a lot of contentious

28:35

moments of the results being called too

28:37

early or in the minds of many

28:39

people not early enough. So

28:41

what do you do about that, frankly,

28:43

problem of the lag time

28:45

between the end of

28:47

the day, of a Tuesday

28:50

election day, and how long it takes

28:52

to actually officially release results? Yeah,

28:55

we've had folks complaining about how

28:57

long it takes us to tabulate as

28:59

soon as the margins got tighter politically. I

29:01

mean, back in the days when John

29:03

McCain was winning his Senate race by

29:05

25 points, nobody cared

29:08

how long it took to tabulate the ballots

29:10

because the math was just so impossible to

29:12

overcome for the opponents. But once

29:14

you get into competitive spaces, like

29:16

the 2016 presidential

29:18

race, which wasn't a huge margin

29:21

of victory, the 2018 US

29:23

Senate race, and you get some

29:25

more competitive races or 2016 US Senate

29:27

race as well, it's

29:30

always taken Arizona several

29:32

days, and sometimes a week or so

29:34

to actually come up with official

29:36

results. It has always taken that long for a

29:39

whole host of reasons that I won't get into

29:41

right now. And it will

29:43

probably always take that long. But

29:45

there's three things that you can have in

29:47

elections. You can only pick two of

29:50

the three. You can have it cheap,

29:52

you can have it fast, or you

29:54

can have it accurate. Pick two of

29:57

those three. And that's what you get in

29:59

Arizona. Arizona, we get it pretty

30:02

inexpensive and super accurate. It

30:05

always has been, but it's not going to

30:07

be quick. And that's okay. From

30:09

an election administrator standpoint, we want to get it right.

30:12

We want to get it right the first time. And

30:14

we do a pretty doggone good job if you

30:17

consider the huge number of votes, particularly

30:19

in Maricopa, which is about 62%

30:22

of Arizona's ballots get tallied right here

30:24

in this one county. So,

30:27

you know, is it a little inconvenient? You

30:30

know, for the news folks, it might be they

30:32

don't get to make their call with the confidence

30:34

that they usually want to make their call quickly.

30:37

But at the end of the day, we get good

30:39

solid results. And that's what really matters. So are

30:42

people, do people get upset about it? You

30:44

know, a little bit. It's a bit of

30:46

an inconvenience. Do

30:49

their concerns bear weight? For

30:51

a lot of them, I'll say no, they don't. Because

30:54

what are the issues we have,

30:56

for example, from like the Kerry Lake crowd? She

30:59

encouraged people to wait and bring

31:01

their early ballot in on election

31:04

day. Well, these are all

31:06

envelopes that have to be signature verified

31:08

before we even open them before

31:11

we can then tabulate them. And we're talking

31:13

about hundreds of thousands of ballots that show

31:15

up that all have to get processed. And

31:18

so you can't tell everybody to

31:20

vote late and then expect quick

31:23

results at the same time and complain if you

31:25

don't get the results as fast as you want.

31:27

It's unrealistic. And it's silly. So

31:30

you know, along with all the rest of this stuff that

31:32

we know is nonsense, we take those criticisms with the grain

31:34

of salt that they deserve. And then

31:36

we just move on and continue to run

31:38

great elections in Arizona as we have done

31:40

for several generations, frankly. So

31:43

I heard you emphasize, you know,

31:45

the paper ballots before, which should

31:47

be comforting to people being people

31:49

are nervous about the digitization of

31:51

that for understandable reasons. You

31:54

are introducing some new

31:57

developments, right? Like I read about tracking votes

31:59

by tax. Like what what are

32:01

things are are coming up for Arizona? Oh

32:05

Yeah, that's actually the most wildly popular

32:07

Bipartisan piece of anything that anybody's done

32:09

in Arizona for elections in a long

32:11

time when I was the Maricopa

32:13

County recorder I introduced a policy

32:16

and a practice there where voters

32:18

could sign up to track their

32:20

ballot via text or email now You

32:22

used to be able to you'd go to the

32:24

website and you would log on and

32:26

you could log into your voter record and find Out

32:28

if the your ballot was being prepared

32:30

for the upcoming election you find out if it

32:33

had been mailed to you You could

32:35

find out if it had been received and

32:38

then you could find out it had been

32:40

signature verified and then set for tabulation These

32:42

eat individual little pieces of data We

32:45

were already collecting and we were already

32:47

letting the voters have access to it

32:49

This system actually pushes that

32:51

information via text and or email

32:54

to the voters So about 60 days

32:56

before an election happens in Arizona the

32:58

voters that are signed up for that service

33:01

We'll get a text message pops up and says

33:03

your ballots being prepared for the upcoming election 27

33:06

days before the election when we put it

33:08

in the mail you get a text

33:11

message that says your ballots been mailed to

33:13

you Which is a really great accountability tool

33:15

and then once it gets received back

33:19

That barcode gets scanned and you

33:21

get a text message automatically that says your

33:23

ballots been received Then

33:26

when your ballot envelope has been signature verified

33:28

you get another text message that says your

33:30

ballots been signature verified. So what we

33:32

introduced was giving the voters

33:34

the Information that they would just kind of naturally

33:36

be curious about many of them went to look

33:38

it up But we just made it easy Just

33:41

sign up for this service and we're

33:43

gonna push the information about your ballot and the

33:45

tracking the status of the ballot now It

33:47

doesn't tell anybody who you voted for because

33:50

once that ballot in the envelope gets separated

33:53

The ballot has been set for tabulation It

33:55

is anonymized by virtue of the fact that it's

33:57

separate from the envelope, which is the only piece

34:00

of that puzzle that has any

34:02

identifying information. So the selections

34:05

on the ballot are anonymous, you don't get that information.

34:08

But pushing this data to voters is wildly

34:10

popular with all partisans, with all voters.

34:12

And I'm really proud to have introduced

34:14

that here in Maricopa County. I took

34:16

that system down to Pima County when

34:18

I was the Chief Deputy Recorder, and

34:21

I'm happy to tell your audience that it looks

34:23

like we very well may be, I'm knocking on

34:25

wood real quick here, we may be

34:27

able to introduce it as a test for

34:30

our March Presidential Preference Election here

34:33

in Arizona. And you know, God

34:35

willing in the creek don't rise, it'll be

34:38

available for all the other counties in Arizona

34:40

by the time we get to the November

34:42

election. It's a really wonderful piece of technology

34:44

and the voters absolutely love it. Well,

34:47

if you can track your Uber Eats order, I guess you should

34:49

be able to track your vote, right? Simple

34:51

as that, simple as that. We'll

34:58

be right back after this break. That's

35:27

shipstation.com with the code P-O-D.

35:57

Thanks for watching. I'll see you next time. Bye.

36:03

Welcome back to Despite

36:07

the disinformation, there's been a lot of disinformation over

36:09

the last several years about how our elections are

36:11

run. Our elections are more secure,

36:13

transparent, and verified than we've ever had in

36:15

American history. And that's objectively true.

36:17

If you just look at all the statistics, we have

36:20

more paper ballots than ever before. 95%

36:22

of all ballots cast in 2020 were

36:24

paper, including all of the ballots in

36:26

all of the battleground states. Paper is

36:28

important because you can go back and

36:30

audit paper and recount paper and make

36:32

sure that the counts the machines might

36:34

have done were accurate. And that was

36:36

done in 2020 to a higher degree than we've

36:38

ever seen before. 43 states

36:41

conducted audits of that, of those paper ballots, including

36:43

all of the battleground states again. You

36:46

know, Emma alluded to the fact that many

36:49

people still believe that

36:52

a paper ballot is a

36:54

more secure. They

36:56

trust it more. It doesn't raise the

36:58

suspicions of, you know, hacking into a program. That

37:02

being said, certainly both generationally

37:05

and behaviorally, more

37:07

and more of us are living appreciable

37:09

portions of our lives digitally. We

37:12

do most of our financial traction digitally, and

37:15

we do those financial transactions because

37:18

we have come to trust the security

37:21

of our data when it

37:23

pertains to money. The question is, A,

37:26

why is that not then extended to

37:28

ballots? And why shouldn't

37:30

we be looking toward an increasingly digital future,

37:33

you know, maybe even in 10, 20

37:35

years, a future where you could vote

37:38

literally with your device and not vote

37:40

in person? Well, first

37:42

of all, I think that's a phenomenally good

37:44

question. And I'm a big proponent of technology.

37:47

I think we can make things

37:49

much more efficient, much more user friendly, and

37:51

really meet voters where they are digitally. But

37:54

the relationship between your ballot and

37:56

the rest of society and

37:58

the relationship between and your money

38:01

are two wholly and completely different

38:03

things. You can do whatever you want

38:05

with your money. It doesn't really have

38:07

that big of an impact on anybody else.

38:09

It's your money. You actually own it.

38:12

Your vote, on the other hand, is a

38:14

piece of a bigger puzzle. You are a member

38:16

of a group, either a precinct, a

38:19

city, a town, a county, a state,

38:21

a nation, and your

38:23

vote counts with those votes of other

38:25

people. It is a cumulative

38:27

decision-making process that we

38:29

are engaged in here.

38:32

It doesn't just belong

38:34

to you. You get to make

38:36

the selection yourself, of course, and in states

38:38

like Arizona that guarantee secrecy, we want to

38:40

maintain that, of course, and we want to

38:43

have the voters have as much autonomy as

38:45

possible. Preserving them on

38:47

paper is the single best physical

38:50

manifestation of that record, of

38:52

your choice, for the whole

38:55

that exists. When you make a choice regarding

38:58

whether or not you're going to subscribe

39:00

to this podcast or whatever other thing, or

39:03

whether you're going to pay more on your

39:05

mortgage this month or next month, that's between

39:07

you and the bank. That's

39:09

an individual sort of a relationship, a

39:11

one-to-one. Your vote matters for

39:13

everyone, and everyone else's vote

39:16

matters for you. And so

39:18

philosophically, it's a very different thing. Now, will

39:20

we get to a place where we

39:22

can have the kinds of systems that engender

39:24

that same sort of trust in

39:26

the future? Perhaps. I've

39:30

looked at those things just to see what they look

39:32

like, but for the time being, you

39:34

can't ignore the very stark sort

39:37

of apple-to-orange comparison between you and

39:39

your bank account and your

39:41

vote and my leadership. It's a very

39:43

different relationship. Let me push back on

39:45

that for a moment. I appreciate what

39:47

you're saying, that there's a communal

39:50

aspect of a vote that's also a

39:52

public performance. I don't mean performance in

39:54

a pejorative sense. I mean a performance

39:56

as you are performing a civic responsibility

39:59

and... part of the performance of

40:01

that is to physically be present in

40:03

conjunction with other people in your community

40:06

doing the same thing at very select

40:08

moments that happen frankly in the greater.

40:11

Warp and wolf of things rarely every couple of

40:13

years and that that that

40:15

that's community important and symbolic important that that

40:17

there be a physicality to that that we

40:19

are there together doing this as well as

40:21

as you just said. The

40:24

ability to demonstrate results tangibly

40:26

physically i mean

40:28

at the same time our tax

40:30

dollars are a collective. Action

40:33

that is not just an individual relationship

40:35

right between me and my bank account

40:38

it's a it's a responsibility that i.

40:41

That i. Both i'm

40:43

obligated to do and probably but would

40:45

defend that obligation with the government we

40:47

do that digitally right we we no

40:50

longer just mail are. No

40:52

no that's that is different it's your tax

40:54

dollars. You

40:57

make less money pay less taxes you make more

40:59

money pay more taxes and then we elect

41:01

people to spend that money that's

41:03

the communal part of it. What your

41:06

relationship with the irs or

41:08

the department of revenue in your state

41:10

is your relationship. That can

41:13

be individualized that can be

41:15

very specifically noted you

41:17

can pay penalties individually for

41:19

not paying your taxes. Those

41:22

don't apply to the rest of the community don't

41:24

apply to everybody else. So

41:26

the act and the impact are very very

41:29

different with all those other things it is

41:31

about the individual in the institution whether it's

41:33

a banking institution whether it's the

41:35

the the the tax man or anything like that. The

41:38

act of voting is a collective

41:40

act by its very nature. The

41:43

reason that we have elections is because

41:45

we have differing points of view and

41:47

we have to come to a common

41:49

decision. It is

41:51

one of the only spaces that we

41:53

have where everyone's voice

41:56

coming together actually produces a

41:58

singular result. that then

42:00

has an impact on everybody else. I mean, unless

42:02

it's like the church choir, right? Then your voice

42:04

and everybody else's work together

42:06

too. So, but from a civic

42:09

responsibility perspective, it's like

42:11

you owe this act to your community. You're making

42:13

a decision for everyone, not just for you. It's

42:15

different with taxes, it's different with mortgages, it's different

42:18

with all of the rest of the things. You're

42:20

making the decision for yourself and only

42:22

you have to suffer the consequences of a bad decision.

42:25

So Adrian, we know we've been talking about elections

42:27

and the election this whole time, but I am

42:29

curious to ask you, is there something that

42:31

you wish people would ask you about other than

42:34

this topic? Yeah,

42:38

there's a lot of stuff that we do in this office.

42:40

We're in charge of the state library and archives. We've got

42:42

a lot of business services that we take care of to

42:44

make sure that prosperity remains

42:46

possible, that opportunities remain pretty

42:49

accessible for all people here

42:51

in Arizona, especially economic opportunities.

42:53

I mean, that's one of the main things. We

42:55

just, we look back at a lot of folks

42:57

and we know that the

42:59

legacy of this country is really

43:01

interesting. It's curious, the business of

43:03

America has always been business. And

43:06

one of the key tenants of the

43:08

civil rights movement was economic capacity. It

43:10

was access to economic

43:12

opportunity, not just the ballot, not

43:14

just rights here and there, but

43:16

all of the whole package was there. So this

43:19

office really does engage in a whole host

43:21

of really fulfilling the American

43:23

dream spaces, right? The freedom of information

43:25

that you get in your libraries and

43:27

the capacity to really process that

43:30

and preserve it for future generations like we

43:32

do in the archives. So that's one of

43:34

the things that I think is great about

43:36

being the Secretary of State in Arizona, not

43:38

to mention I'm also the Lieutenant Governor. So

43:40

every once in a while when our governor is out

43:43

of state, I get to make a

43:45

cool proclamation about this, that, or the other as

43:47

the acting governor, which is a lot of fun.

43:49

So yeah, there's a lot of things

43:51

that this office really works on, but

43:53

this is sort of the gatekeeper to

43:56

democracy space, a lot of our critical

43:58

institutions that help all. All of. You.

44:01

Know this this this fabric of our society

44:03

run right through this office and of always

44:05

described a getting back to the thing that

44:07

we talk about too much I guess. Getting.

44:09

Back To Elections Elections are and I like to

44:11

say this. Elections. Are the

44:13

golden thread. That. Bind together

44:16

the fabric of all of the rest of

44:18

our society again. whether it's business, The

44:20

Arts and Sciences Technology, law,

44:23

Medicine, All. Of Those things, Those.

44:25

Fabrics are bound together by.

44:27

This. Communal act of Elections that

44:30

gold threat. And. If you pull

44:32

that golden thread out, The. Entire

44:34

fabric disintegrates. And.

44:36

That's really, really rude.

44:39

Especially when we operate in the system

44:42

that we do. American democracy. Is

44:44

bound together by face. The.

44:46

Faith that we have in one another. And.

44:49

The authoritarian and and and and and

44:51

sort of. the fascists out there want

44:53

to divide us away from one another

44:56

and destroy that civics face. That.

44:58

We as Americans have specifically

45:00

in that golden thread that

45:02

binds us together as a

45:04

society. As. You don't always get the

45:06

result you what sort of the beauties of this thing?

45:09

Everyone sometimes wins. As

45:11

you don't always get to him, but you

45:14

always get to participate, yours get to move

45:16

forward and we do get to progress as

45:18

a society because of that civic face. Right?

45:21

And so that's one of the great things

45:23

about this office is that it really all

45:25

does tie together philosophically. And. It's exciting

45:27

and and and I'm haven't obviously and this gets

45:29

else. I'm having a great time doing this job.

45:32

I really love it! After

45:34

says a wrap up. In.

45:36

On the one hand there is that

45:38

depressing route of book talked about earlier

45:40

of. The. Preponderance of

45:42

election officials resigned or

45:45

didn't. Mean to run again

45:47

because of the just the dispiriting. Stress.

45:50

And trauma and and drama

45:52

of the past two elections.

45:55

Who knows too much? The

45:57

flipside, of course, is. There's.

45:59

all new set of people who are

46:01

willing to step in and be

46:05

public servants and you included, you

46:07

know, that it

46:10

depends, you know, the optic is very

46:12

different if you look at it from, oh my god,

46:15

the intense

46:18

partisanship and hatred and denialism

46:20

is leading people to step

46:22

aside because it's a much

46:24

more fraught role than

46:27

saying, look at all the new people who are saying

46:29

that they are passionate about

46:31

exactly what you just articulated, that

46:34

elections are the closest thing we have

46:36

to a covenant with

46:38

each other and there

46:40

are plenty of people who are stepping up and

46:42

saying, I'm gonna be a servant

46:44

to make sure that this aspect of

46:46

our society and our democracy continues

46:49

to function, which is a much more hopeful statement,

46:51

right? Than the one of like, everybody went, oh

46:53

my god, I can't do this. Yeah.

46:55

And that's really, that's really what keeps me

46:58

going, right? It's these folks that are coming

47:00

in and they're coming in bright eyed and

47:03

they know exactly what it is that other

47:05

folks have gone through. They see it in

47:07

a lot of the training. You

47:09

know, you never used to have to do

47:11

live shooter drills in elections offices. We

47:14

do now. I'm not laughing, I'm just like,

47:16

oh my god. Yeah. It's a morbid laugh,

47:18

but it's appropriate, right? We never had

47:20

to do a lot of this stuff that

47:23

we have to do now and things

47:25

change and sometimes they change for the better and

47:27

sometimes they change for the worse. But like you

47:29

said, and I think it's critically important for

47:31

folks to understand, I am positive, I

47:34

am uplifted and

47:36

I have a great deal of hope because of the

47:38

people who are coming in, because these

47:40

folks want to be

47:42

a part of American democracy

47:44

in spite

47:46

of the possible downsides, in spite of

47:49

the possible danger and sort of the

47:51

stress and the threats and all that

47:53

stuff. They still want to see

47:55

this move forward and that means that what

47:57

we do is valuable. It's incredibly

47:59

valuable. And and and you really

48:01

want the folks that get it. To. Be

48:03

doing it. And those are the folks

48:05

that were bringing in. and and I'm I'm pretty darn proud

48:07

of it. Well, we we

48:10

wish to us. I mean, like is

48:12

probably not the right word in a

48:14

Godspeed picture. You sleep, well have

48:16

us. Sleep. Now to surveillance

48:18

sleep. The second half of

48:21

the year and you know thank you

48:23

for during. The role

48:25

that you're doing and first stepping into

48:27

the fray in the ring and all those

48:29

cliches. but it's it's. very good to hear

48:31

and I think I have many people realists

48:34

angles will feel the same that it is

48:36

good to hear. And.

48:39

I don't think we heard enough seen others.

48:41

There's a lot of what people pay attention

48:43

to. politics tends to be the horse race

48:45

and the drama. And and we sir, stop

48:47

paying attention to what the waxy doing. And

48:50

I refer a preserve the conversation about that

48:52

and I you know. Again, The

48:54

more you can speak about and the

48:56

more I think you can evangelize for

48:58

hey we were a set of people

49:01

performing road by althouse. We do so

49:03

with eyes wide open, enthusiasm, awareness of

49:05

of the the challenges of that And

49:07

here we are. And I said the

49:09

more people here that's that in and

49:11

of itself. Is.

49:14

It's. Not an antidote to than

49:16

certainly something that Levin's what otherwise

49:18

appears to be a kind of

49:20

depressing picture. We're gonna so better

49:22

myself and. I. Certainly am excited to

49:25

be doing it. Particularly like I said with a with the

49:27

folks who are coming in now I'm at the folks that

49:29

are still around. Of course they. They. Get it,

49:31

They've got it for a long time, but. It's. Exciting.

49:33

It's been. Twenty Twenty Four is going to have

49:35

its challenges. But. At the end of the day

49:37

of you're not doing something challenging. But. You gotta

49:39

consider get not your comfort zone and this certainly

49:41

can be an uncomfortable spot once in awhile. but

49:44

but we'll get through it will be will be

49:46

will be just fine for checking on you after

49:48

the election. A dream But for now thanks so

49:50

much for coming on. Thank you so much for

49:52

having me. I really appreciate it. While.

49:57

the risk of repeating myself i did sign conversation

50:00

quite uplifting. First of all, to just

50:02

have someone who's passionate about public service,

50:05

who has really thought deeply about both

50:08

the wonky stuff and the more

50:11

like who are we as a

50:13

democratic society questions. And I think

50:17

you know we talked about this once that we

50:20

pay only attention to massive

50:22

divisions and name-calling in Congress

50:24

for instance, even though underneath

50:27

the surface there are actually laws being passed

50:29

and bills being written by Democrats

50:31

and Republicans cooperating with

50:33

each other that end up not being

50:36

news because it's not nearly as interesting

50:38

to talk about a bill that was

50:40

passed with overwhelming bipartisan support. And

50:44

Adrian alluded

50:46

to bills that are being sponsored

50:48

by both Republicans and Democrats to

50:50

improve elections in Arizona as

50:53

a indication of there

50:55

are a lot of public servants who are actually trying to

50:57

serve the public and not just themselves and

50:59

not just their own ambition and

51:01

not just news hounds

51:04

and you know trying to get attention for

51:06

the sake of getting attention. And

51:08

it's important to remember that you know that

51:10

there are in fact a lot of people

51:12

who are animated by a spirit of public

51:15

service not just by greed and

51:17

ambition and wanting to be in the

51:19

limelight and much of what a secretary

51:21

of state does at least until 2020 was

51:24

the opposite of the

51:26

limelight. It was simply doing absolutely

51:29

necessary and vital work away from the

51:31

spotlight. The fact that it's become in

51:33

the spotlight is probably

51:35

not a great thing but it's still

51:37

often people who are you know

51:39

you have this with Brad Raffenberg and in Georgia

51:41

of course who really are

51:43

just driven by making sure that elections

51:45

are fair and free and open and

51:47

well-run. Yeah I mean it's overlining of

51:50

a bunch of people suddenly caring about what

51:52

the Secretary of State in Arizona is doing

51:54

is that we all have a better understanding

51:56

of how elections are actually run and as

51:59

you know Adrian pointed out, all

52:02

the logistical details that are involved in that

52:04

and all the preparation. I

52:06

will say my one pushback to the

52:09

bipartisan legislation getting pushed over the finish

52:11

line is that his example that he

52:13

gave, he did also mention that that

52:15

guy was filing lawsuits against him, so

52:17

it seems to be a mix of

52:19

public service sentiment and personal

52:21

ambition or playing to a crowd, let's say.

52:24

But something else I wanted to point

52:26

out too is that with Adrian, it

52:28

reminded me, perhaps surprisingly, of our conversation

52:30

about climate change with Rebecca Solnit and

52:33

Thelma Young, because

52:35

they had the same point that if you

52:37

read what the media has to say about

52:40

these big crises, you get very

52:42

discouraged, very dejected. But if you talk to

52:44

people that are actually in the trenches and

52:46

doing the work, they have a completely opposite

52:48

attitude. And I think Adrian was a perfect example of

52:50

that when it comes to elections in the States. By

52:54

the way, we did ask the Secretary of State

52:57

beforehand what title to use, and he was

52:59

not particularly interested in titles. So for those

53:01

who are listening, we're calling him by his

53:03

first name because that's what he prefers. It's

53:05

not that we're in any way trying

53:07

to be casual about the fact that he holds high

53:10

office in a significant state.

53:12

All states are significant. He holds a high

53:15

office in one of the 50 states of

53:17

the United States. It will be fascinating to

53:19

see what happens this year, of course, and

53:21

whether or not what most

53:23

of us thought about 2022. I

53:26

mean, taking the caveat of there were still

53:28

election deniers in Arizona and elsewhere. And

53:31

by election deniers, it is people who

53:33

simply refused to acknowledge tabulated results that

53:35

both courts and what are supposed to

53:38

be nonpartisan election officials have certified, whether

53:41

it's Republican or Democrat. It

53:43

seemed in 2022 that

53:45

that election was largely

53:47

accepted by enough of the

53:49

preponderance of the electorate and officials

53:52

that it was a normal

53:54

election. And separate from what

53:56

the result might be in 2024, we should be able to

53:59

do that. should certainly hope

54:01

for and demand that

54:04

we all accept a legitimate

54:06

result. That doesn't mean we like the

54:08

result. It means we

54:10

see the process as having

54:12

resulted in a fair election. And

54:14

2022 was,

54:17

I think, an example of no

54:19

matter what happens in the November

54:22

2024 elections, it would certainly

54:24

be better for our democracy if all of us have

54:27

faith that the result is an accurate reflection of

54:29

how people actually voted. I mean, I'm sure a

54:32

lot of people out there wish that. I

54:34

think that Adrian seems to be pointing

54:36

out that the fever around that seems

54:38

to be dissipating somewhat. And

54:41

I think the longer that we go on

54:44

with elections going relatively smoothly,

54:47

the more and more that kind

54:49

of fade into, remember that one

54:51

time that that terrible thing happened,

54:54

we were terribly ill. But

54:57

we shall see. We shall see. I, you know, we

54:59

didn't get to ask him. I think

55:01

it was just obvious by the way that he was answering how

55:04

he feels personally, because we use a lot

55:06

of words like dread and nerve wracking and

55:08

despair and things like that. And he just,

55:10

he was just the opposite of that. So I

55:12

don't know. Maybe he's hiding nerves deep inside of

55:15

him. Maybe he is. And you know, that's his

55:17

role as someone in public office to hide that.

55:20

I'd be curious for kind of like an X-ray into his,

55:22

his soul on that. I

55:24

really feel pretty straightforward about his

55:26

confidence and his ability to create

55:30

a fair election or

55:33

make sure that an election is run

55:35

fairly. So we

55:37

will be back next week with another episode.

55:40

We want to thank you all

55:42

for listening and tuning in again.

55:44

Comments, questions, critiques are all welcome.

55:46

Go to theprogressnetwork.org

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56:12

Though Ray is produced by Andrew Steven, Executive

56:15

produced by Jeff. I'm And Up Like aren't

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Progress network.org Thanks for listening.