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quince.com/upgrade. Hello

1:06

and welcome to the Forbidden Door

1:08

Review. We are

1:10

the Dadly Boys of WhatCulture. I'm

1:12

Adam Wilborne, joined by Michael Hanflow and Michael Zudric

1:14

here to review everything that happened on this weekend's

1:16

Forbidden Door Pay-Per-View. But before we get into it,

1:19

if you're a fan of this sort of thing,

1:21

make sure you subscribe to WhatCulture, I see on

1:23

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music and YouTube, where

1:26

we do daily wrestling podcasts, where we not only

1:28

review AW Dynamite and AW Collision, but also Raw

1:30

Smack and the show formerly known as NXT 2.0.

1:34

Paper views, premium live events, we have interviews, roundtable

1:36

discussions and a round of the week complete. It's

1:38

a very good quiz, of course, on

1:40

WrestleCulture. As I said, they're joined by Hanflow and

1:42

Zudric to join live on YouTube our review of

1:45

Forbidden Door. Sidge, let's dive straight into the whole

1:47

show. What did you make of it? I

1:50

thought Forbidden Door was very,

1:52

very, very, very good. It

1:55

never reached great for me. What

2:00

does that mean? Does it mean I should

2:02

be disappointed? Has it not

2:04

met a standard? Did I have a

2:06

great time watching it? No,

2:09

no. There's a bad news, good news here. I

2:12

expressed concerns ahead of the show with

2:15

its, did it have 15

2:18

matches in the end? Think so, yeah.

2:20

Yes, including the kickoff. 15 match card.

2:22

I know where it's called. A 15

2:24

match card, I thought, well the

2:26

bad news is that at some

2:28

point this up for

2:30

a crowd is going to die

2:33

and we'll get the lull in the middle. Good

2:36

news is that they were never really that up for it. So

2:40

there wasn't much of a lull because there

2:42

wasn't a great deal of atmosphere throughout, but

2:46

Swerve Strickland under big pressure became

2:48

the diamond and that

2:50

crowd felt like a proper AEW

2:52

crowd at last for

2:55

the main match. Again,

2:57

this increased pay-per-view schedule

2:59

is starting to feel the weight

3:01

of itself now. It no longer

3:03

feels quite as special. You

3:07

know, you got 60% of TV, not

3:09

meaning much, and you're doing near

3:11

monthly big egg wrestling universe shows it, you

3:14

know, it reaches a point of, oh,

3:17

another one. Yeah. Yeah,

3:20

this was like, this was all right as

3:22

a show and really, really good

3:24

in places. Some high peaks to talk about

3:27

here, but ultimately the things

3:29

that stood to work against Forbidden

3:31

Door, worked against Forbidden Door, like that's

3:33

the reality of it. The stuff that we, and

3:35

not just us, but people like in good faith

3:37

previewed as things that could work against this event

3:40

did, the, I don't

3:42

wanna, I simply cannot get into the conversation about length

3:44

of shows because I just think at this point there's

3:46

willful ignorance on both sides, which I know I will

3:48

have contributed to at one point, but I feel like

3:51

everybody, like it's way more subjective than anyone

3:53

ever gave it credit for. So much more

3:55

rooted in your feeling. What works, works as

3:57

well. Yeah, like the things.

3:59

such as you got into it on the

4:02

X over the weekend, didn't you? Not really.

4:04

Somebody tried to. I won't

4:06

respond to grasses. No

4:08

people that want to go like looking for bad.

4:10

I like to have chats with people on X,

4:13

but I won't. I won't have fights with people.

4:15

It's I'm not really into that. But like the

4:17

this like New Japan has gone pretty cold. So

4:19

what was once a bit of a dreamscape of

4:22

a pro and pay-per-view is no longer that because

4:24

like New Japan doesn't really feel like

4:26

it's currently got the crop of main event as

4:28

you want to see. You are dealing with the

4:30

prior crop of main eventers who have already mostly

4:32

wrestled the dream matches you want to watch. So

4:34

that's gone. E.W. itself is not that

4:36

hot. So you're not seeing this too hot companies on

4:39

our collision course, which, as I say, by 20, 20,

4:41

see was still something you could imagine, even if that

4:43

wasn't the case in New Japan, and

4:46

the format has been abandoned enough that the

4:48

main event was an all AW well title

4:50

match. So the format itself doesn't really feel

4:53

as supported as it once did. All of

4:55

these like were already conspiring to sort of

4:57

undermine it before you get to something like

4:59

the monthly pay-per-view cycle or the fact that

5:01

it's just for been door and name rather

5:04

than in nature. The fact that the TV

5:06

bill to some of these matches wasn't that

5:08

strong. And whereas that used to

5:10

be a feature, increasingly, it's becoming a bug when

5:12

we're super excited about when we were super excited

5:14

about the O in a lot of stuff that

5:17

kind of has nothing to do with the Bindo.

5:19

I think all of that stuff did ultimately kind

5:21

of do what

5:23

it threatened to do, which was just work

5:25

against the vibe of this event. And that's

5:27

ignoring the stuff that Sidge pointed out well

5:29

in advance, the things like Long Island, like

5:31

and the potential threat of that crowd. The

5:36

company that has the potential to put on

5:38

match of the year candidates every

5:41

week with the quality of this roster

5:45

did so in some cases. That's

5:47

that's the nicest thing I can say about

5:49

it. But again, we get onto this usual

5:51

existential thing of is it enough? What is

5:54

enough? So many people want so many different

5:56

things from all elite wrestling. You can't get

5:58

one hive mind. take you can't get one

6:00

sort of like group think on AW anymore

6:02

and what you're left with is everybody having

6:04

their own their own scatter shot thoughts on

6:06

it. I got one more take on this

6:09

how many matches on a show thing. I

6:12

thought they actually sequenced this one quite well and

6:14

in front of a hotter market maybe they would

6:16

have cracked it but it's always going to be

6:18

a problem. I just

6:20

simply do not get the idea of I

6:23

want as many matches as I can for

6:25

my $50. I want

6:27

as many matches that are going to

6:29

get sustained consistent heat throughout one show

6:31

throughout one experience like do

6:33

you not you're

6:36

not getting like these

6:38

matches you're not going to sell

6:40

them on for a better

6:42

price for you. Not Walmart you

6:45

know what I mean like it's a value for

6:47

money and you're not selling these on for you

6:49

know a more premium cost they're

6:51

matches in succession in one sitting

6:54

that ideally you want each of them to

6:56

reach their ceiling and that gets increasingly more

6:58

difficult the more matches they're on that are

7:00

on a show. People are saying in the

7:02

chat that you nailed it on the preview

7:05

the chats to Jesse and Diamond Jim and

7:07

Vic Strike chatting thank you everyone for joining

7:09

us. Thank you. Saying yeah seven to eight

7:11

matches at the sweet spot. Of course it

7:14

is. You're not calling for Triple HPLEs in

7:16

comparison this is this is this

7:18

is a happy medium and there often is.

7:20

It's not really a fair comparison because obviously

7:23

you prefer the output from AW to WWE

7:25

but people who might think yeah well that's

7:27

because you're Mr Bean Looking Ass is sat

7:29

there with matchsticks in your eyes at 2am

7:32

in the morning going I want this to be over as fast

7:34

as possible. No. We went to WrestleMania 35. If that show had

7:36

ended with Kofi

7:40

winning the title you wouldn't have gone. Not enough

7:42

matches on this for me. Yeah no no we

7:44

we've talked about it's at length on podcast the

7:46

point that people are probably bored of it. There

7:48

is a note by watching wrestling in Las Vegas

7:50

because you've got all your night left when it

7:53

finishes. Like that gets going so goddamn early. It's

7:55

a dream for us Mr Bean Looking Ass is.

7:57

And Double or Nothing felt baggy and overlong because

7:59

it was a bagging over long short. It has

8:01

nothing to do with the time of watching it

8:03

and I see that a lot and I resent

8:05

it a little bit because it's like well if

8:07

anything like I've done this for like nine on

8:09

thirty years actually makes me a bit more discerning

8:11

dickhead because I am putting the sacrifice and the

8:13

effort to watch this so that like I don't

8:16

think it's a lazy take but I personally see it

8:19

as a bad one. Do you know the only thing

8:21

I'd compare it to this just I've actually said this

8:23

I don't think before is

8:25

when people say when then

8:28

you stay up and you pay your money

8:30

for like a big UFC pay-per-view and people

8:32

go I bet

8:35

you're happy spending all that money just for

8:37

Connor to knock out Josie Alda in 13

8:39

seconds. Well if you can get it done

8:42

in 13 seconds in that spectacular fashion I'd

8:44

rather that than 25 minutes of just them

8:46

going out like that's the different version of

8:49

you paid fifty dollars to go and jump

8:51

up in there one moment and nobody ever

8:53

there's like it's a football thing for us

8:55

is that late winter whatever boring like well

8:58

the England gave me the perfect example if

9:00

you're in the building you don't regret whatever

9:02

it cost you would be there in that

9:04

stadium last night for that one moment if

9:06

you leave but like that is actually what

9:09

that feeling is worth more than quantity 15

9:11

matches in our opinion and I know the

9:13

main card was nine then

9:15

maybe ten but people are now doing that

9:17

thing where you're supposed to divide each match

9:19

up into a dollar figure and have it

9:21

ever but people can think that this is

9:24

my point like I think there is willful

9:26

ignorance at play but I'm trying to believe

9:28

the people actually mean that and say fine

9:30

if that's how you value your wrestling more

9:32

power to you it's not how I value

9:34

mine the hundred dollar ticket is paid off

9:36

in one second of it ah if you

9:38

feel that yes it's one and you will

9:40

buy again uh let's

9:42

not begin in the night though uh hometown

9:45

hero mjf versus hetches sarah yeah I was

9:47

underwhelmed by this I was underwhelmed by this

9:50

and it's weird like this is one of those are

9:52

you never happy correct I mean

9:54

this is what I want

9:56

out of a pay-per-view opener in terms of

9:58

the toner set the

10:01

length of time. This was

10:03

pitched as a

10:06

nice little back and forth that

10:08

exists to unglue the crowd. Our

10:11

hometown guy comes out he has

10:13

this unique striking match

10:17

that doesn't outstay its welcome and it

10:20

serves to unglue the crowd. This

10:22

crowd just for a lot of it

10:24

didn't want to come unglued. The work

10:26

was there I guess it didn't really

10:28

do much for me. I don't I

10:30

really endorse the idea of AEW learning

10:33

one lesson from this and that is

10:36

let's have 10 minutes. 10 brisk

10:38

fat free minutes with a nice little

10:41

feel-good ending and then write the crowd

10:43

up for it. But in terms of

10:45

execution I mean this match just

10:48

wasn't particularly great. It was solid, it

10:50

wasn't actively bad, it just felt incredibly

10:52

inessential, incredibly inessential and on the crowd

10:55

as well I was gonna make a

10:57

broad take on this because I don't

10:59

want to talk about it every single

11:01

match even though it was a recurring

11:04

theme throughout. It was

11:06

like watching a tennis

11:08

crowd where they will quietly

11:11

observe quite a lot of it.

11:13

If there's a rally going they'll go well

11:16

crazier than you expect them to go.

11:18

When there's a good rally they're

11:21

up for it. Virtually every other point

11:23

it's like just sitting there quietly observing

11:25

it and it was so weird in

11:27

terms of the rhythm. It's not like

11:29

the the Japanese crowds were

11:32

the best crowds of all time when they're at the

11:34

hottest where they quietly

11:36

observe, they pay attention, they're polite and

11:38

then they get unglued and then they

11:41

make this just glorious cacophony. It

11:43

was like it was so weirdly patchy.

11:47

A lot of matches this one included really

11:49

struggle to just escalate into something wonderful. Knowing

11:51

what you, sorry before I get your thoughts

11:53

on it, knowing what you know now would

11:56

you have rather they put the ruche match on

11:58

paper? Yes. Yeah,

12:01

it was impossible. Like you couldn't hate this match, but

12:03

it was impossible to love it. Yeah. You know what

12:05

I mean? Like it didn't ask you to love it.

12:08

It asked you to just watch it. Like, and MJF

12:10

sort of told us that with that, how throw

12:13

away the name drop was on Wednesday's

12:15

dynamite. And that it's that off, like

12:17

that is a strange way

12:19

to sell a guy coming into his hometown venue. One

12:21

of the biggest stars you've got in your company. Having

12:23

made the type of return, having made

12:25

the type of comeback, you've made it double or

12:27

nothing. And to do this and

12:29

like almost like hell of MJF.

12:31

And I think very little he

12:33

does is by accident. And

12:35

I felt like I was watching him wrestle this with

12:38

a kind of knowing it's a

12:40

shaking off the cobwebs pay match for me this

12:42

because like, it's not going to take away from

12:44

the fact that he's going to do something massive

12:47

at Wembley because he's a massive homegrown star that

12:49

should do something massive. You kind of still have

12:51

to stay massive.

12:54

And you almost allowed his presence

12:56

to be minimized here. Like

12:58

this was forgettable

13:00

by design. It was just, but

13:02

competently worked. Like not, not nobody

13:05

put a foot wrong in this.

13:07

And yet what was I watching really

13:09

on a, on a pay-per-view of a guy that's

13:12

a massive star in his hometown. Yeah. Very. It

13:14

just struck me as very odd. This very odd.

13:16

I tell you what, the good people

13:18

not happy with all of this. You know what I mean?

13:20

The others there because it was, there was something gone wrong

13:22

with Ruth, perhaps it, how

13:24

did we arrive at this? I dunno. I have

13:26

no idea. Um, the good news is if you

13:28

want to look at this positively is that nights

13:31

like this, which really

13:33

only serve to normalize MJF and potentially

13:36

draw not unfair

13:38

accusations that he didn't really care

13:41

that much about making

13:43

head Cesaro and defeat or whatever, or making

13:45

sure the last memory you get of him

13:47

is better than the last one you saw, you

13:49

know, um, nights

13:53

like this will draw him closer to a heel

13:55

turn and he is far better in a heel

13:57

rule. Yeah. Not chasing

13:59

the acclaim. that he was accused of last

14:01

year at the expense of that heel character.

14:03

Yeah, it was just like a formality of

14:05

a result, a formality of a match. Let's

14:07

get out of that. I'd note that you're

14:09

not going to be this babyface

14:13

who has AEW tattooed on his

14:15

calf to then do this at the

14:17

first time you get a chance to do an AEW

14:19

pay-up review match knowing what a cachet that has with

14:21

the audience. It just felt like... It's just a question,

14:23

didn't it? The guy who

14:25

returned a double or nothing was a different guy to who

14:27

wrestled this match and I don't know what the story was

14:30

if there is one. I've got no idea. I was just

14:32

left a little bit underwhelmed and quite

14:34

baffled by all of this. Didn't

14:36

feel like the guy who's just got an AEW

14:38

tattooed on his calf. Yeah.

14:41

Next up was the trios match, the elites,

14:44

Matthew Jackson, Nicholas Jackson and Kazuchiko

14:46

Okada versus the acclaimed and Hiroshi

14:49

Tanahashi. Along with this,

14:51

I want to factor in an element of

14:53

this, a question from Mark Lee Willis. The

14:55

Cole references, is he back soon?

14:58

What do you reckon? With Kenny. Adam

15:00

Cole, I think. Or maybe, maybe Kenny.

15:02

Well... Kenny

15:04

Omega was teased. Yeah. I like the pixelate in

15:06

the face and the thing. I mean, that's really

15:09

good. That was nice, yeah. Slash hangman page was

15:11

teased along with the collision review.

15:13

It's all happening. What were the Cole teasers?

15:15

The kiss, the unbook's kiss, I suppose. Oh,

15:17

yeah. I guess. I've

15:20

never actually put that together. I didn't put that together to be honest.

15:22

It's so nice that they hit. Well, MJF.

15:24

Sorry, I'm taking the sunrise, yeah. Potentially.

15:27

I don't know. I've just... All

15:29

the reports I've heard about Adam

15:31

Cole or that, that ankle is

15:35

healing very slowly. I don't know. I

15:38

popped on Twitter, as I always do,

15:40

sadly, after this PPV

15:42

and people were pissed at this match. I

15:44

thought it was a nice bit of knockabout fun that

15:46

worked perfectly as the second match on the show. Slightly

15:50

frivolous. Worked for laughs.

15:53

We got a bit out of a car to

15:55

Ta-Nehisi. I told you on the

15:57

preview that I'm so bored of the... the

16:00

two people you want to see interact in this trios

16:02

match or delaying that interaction until we're finished. And

16:04

I thought, I mean, I don't care. They're going

16:06

to do it. And I'm going to enjoy doing it. They did it.

16:08

I enjoyed it. This is like, I don't know if I'm

16:12

trying to rewire people's brains about how

16:15

the pay-per-view format should go. Brief opener

16:17

just serves to unglue the crowd. Don't

16:19

have a main event match masquerading. An

16:21

opening match masquerading is a main event

16:23

one. And then the second

16:25

match traditionally is just more knockabout fun. You

16:27

don't get too serious with the stakes yet.

16:30

That's the thing. Like I think they sequenced

16:32

this card. I agree. In

16:34

a really astute way that

16:37

had it played out in front of a hotter

16:39

crowd would have worked to

16:41

sort of like pace them that bit better. I

16:44

thought this was fine. I had fun with it. I

16:46

don't disagree. Like it was, I didn't

16:49

go into the particularly high expectations and the medium

16:51

ones were met. I will say, the

16:54

daddy ass thing annoyed us immensely. Well, yeah,

16:57

Billy Gun's in now so he can get Ocada. He'll

16:59

solve this mess. Is there, when

17:01

you say there was always like negative feedback, has

17:03

the, like the worm has turned a

17:05

little bit on Ocada and he's become like, who

17:08

is AW4 at this point as well? The t-shirt

17:10

says it's for the sickos. Tony Khan says sicko,

17:12

sicko, sicko. Well, sickos would want Ocada to just

17:14

wrestle five star Ocada matches every week and they're

17:16

not getting that. They're getting him saying bitch and

17:18

it's a bit of a boy popper. And if

17:20

anything, you're holding back. I have a theory talked

17:22

about as a bit over the desk this morning

17:24

because Morrie doesn't particularly like this version of Ocada.

17:26

I would say, and I think they have tried

17:28

that in the same thing with both Osprey and

17:30

Ocada, which is almost delaying the gratification of the

17:32

best in the world, the best in the world

17:34

status for Will Osprey is winning that world title.

17:36

The best in the world status for Ocada is

17:38

just being the rainmaker again. And then the same

17:40

thing, just different delays. Why bring them in and

17:42

immediately inadvertently other one of them? You get both

17:45

here. There will come a day where Ocada will

17:47

be the rainmaker and they've, they can

17:49

buy themselves however long they want in this run.

17:51

But are people already a bit sick

17:54

of like Ocada the mean guy

17:56

or Ocada the guy that turns up to say,

17:58

he brings me joy. that love it.

18:01

I love it but I think maybe here's

18:03

where the sickos that feel so serviced by

18:05

something like collision for the matches for the

18:08

15 like I'm getting my money's worth of

18:10

15 matches they want Kazucho Okada to give

18:12

you a 35 minute New Japan epic and

18:15

they're not they're getting this and that's that's

18:18

not hitting right by them you know. I get it

18:20

I get it. I don't personally feel

18:22

it I'm with you I think there's a place. I

18:24

just find them very very entertaining. I think it's I

18:26

think it helps AW as a product I think you

18:29

want a bit of range there is a time for

18:31

Okada to be the wrestler Okada this is actually new

18:33

this feels interesting to me. It's interesting it's

18:35

funny in a year's time he'll be her

18:37

angle. But there's already people loudly talking about

18:40

Fed writers in the room killing AW again

18:43

and Okada's one of the characters at the

18:45

link into that. I get it but I

18:47

think it's just funny he obviously enjoys doing

18:50

it immensely and I'm going anywhere is he?

18:52

He's not going anywhere. At least a three-year

18:54

contract I'd be amazed if it's less than

18:56

three minimum. Yeah this time next

18:59

year I'll be doing serious business.

19:01

This served the card nicely. I'm

19:04

not injured right now. Yeah I'm

19:06

not even big

19:08

on the storyline in which

19:10

Okada is performing but

19:12

as individual performances I find funny and look this

19:15

is a guy right what people need to remember

19:17

about Kazucho Okada is that he's got that Kenny

19:19

Omega where he can just switch on like a

19:21

light switch. We talked about that big time entrance.

19:24

Kenny's wearing t-shirts a lot on Dynamite and he's

19:26

in the tag team division. Then he does that

19:29

the dancing broom girls and the three faces

19:31

of the entrance music and he looks like

19:33

the star and he does

19:36

that face. Kazucho Okada drew

19:39

sort of similar accusations

19:41

of what's he doing? 2018 balloon

19:44

Okada right what does he

19:46

do at Wrestle Kingdom 2019 just puts

19:48

the trunks back on and goes like

19:50

that and everyone's like Okada's back. He'll

19:53

wear that old color scheme like

19:57

the purple and gold. Yeah one

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34:00

of defending themselves and if I... Every limb

34:02

was taken down. Exactly. If I let this

34:04

go any longer, I'm being negligent and I'm

34:06

not looking after the safety of the wrestler.

34:09

This was the technical

34:11

wrestling submission version of

34:13

someone knocked

34:15

unconscious, getting repeatedly punched in the

34:18

head. This person can't defend themselves.

34:20

They haven't submitted. They haven't been

34:22

pinned to the map, but this can't go on. It's

34:24

over. This is the submission version of that.

34:27

Every single limb, you cannot get out

34:29

of it. Sorry, it's done.

34:31

You know what? This is probably now

34:34

that I talk myself into it, the

34:36

best political reality

34:38

finish of these

34:41

collaborations. Even before you talk

34:44

about the respective fortunes of the

34:46

company, interpromotional stuff

34:48

is already inherently flawed. Even if they're

34:50

the most white hot companies on either

34:53

side of the Pacific, because they're not

34:55

by half, by four, because

34:58

you have to play political games. Otherwise, no

35:00

one wins. Not

35:02

for disguise, 50-50 booking. As not

35:04

50-50. Yeah, exactly. This is

35:06

the perfect, perfect finish now that I

35:08

talk myself into it for the show,

35:11

the concept, the wrestlers involved and

35:13

the actual execution of the finish was out of this world.

35:16

Again, it just had that tennis quality at

35:18

certain points of, why aren't

35:20

you making no noise? I

35:23

really, really like ZSJ, because

35:25

he's someone who ever

35:27

since like, I was,

35:29

full disclosure, I was really properly

35:31

introduced to regular ZSJ matches when

35:34

we had him in WCPW, because I just got to

35:36

see them very luckily being a part of the show.

35:39

And I think if you'd have said to me, I think

35:41

you'd have said to me, if

35:44

you'd have said to

35:46

me prior to that, do

35:48

you want to see a wrestler who makes a

35:50

wrestling match seem like a game of chess? I

35:53

said, not really, but it's a really

35:56

funny voices. Like you say,

35:58

you're right. man

1:00:00

working quite frankly, methodical matches. Um,

1:00:03

it's a bit of this match where like, you know, when you just

1:00:05

get woken up, I didn't expect you would do something that cool. When

1:00:08

night oat and it inside out

1:00:10

imploding bump from a lariat and

1:00:12

Moxie put some sauce behind it.

1:00:15

It's like, you did something. You did something there. Like

1:00:18

you got, I would

1:00:20

say that spot. And

1:00:22

then these two, and then one of the glimmer of,

1:00:25

I'll give you that. And a smile

1:00:27

slowly crept on my face

1:00:30

when night. Oh, hit him with like,

1:00:33

well, what looked like a pool noodle.

1:00:35

Yes. We just started hitting him with it. Like

1:00:37

he had a bit of a smile on his face barricade protect. Yeah.

1:00:40

Otherwise this was so drab

1:00:42

tepid, like they

1:00:45

could not work together to maneuver

1:00:48

night o into that Destino towards the finish for

1:00:51

love, no money. It felt like it was falling

1:00:53

apart. It was like,

1:00:55

oh, it's endless now for God's sake. And

1:00:58

then and Hanford's got the take on this on

1:01:00

this finish. It

1:01:03

was very rubbish. I

1:01:05

you couldn't you could not get away from the

1:01:07

transparent politics at play. And we're not even talking.

1:01:09

Well, there's the opposite. Isn't it? Orange

1:01:12

Cassidy and Zach Sabre, such an elegant solution. Like

1:01:14

I don't know if this is new Japan, a W politics or

1:01:16

speculation. I put all of this. I don't know if this is

1:01:19

John Moxie politics because I feel like I've seen

1:01:21

evidence of that elsewhere beyond forbidden door. This

1:01:24

this was like, honestly, if this was a

1:01:26

Chris Jericho match, people would

1:01:29

be burying him six foot deep and again

1:01:31

begging from not to pay for you not

1:01:33

to be on a dynamite. So typical Jericho

1:01:35

there like an ultimately it's the

1:01:37

sorts of boxes. We don't

1:01:40

know these people know, but it

1:01:42

seems like a nice sound up look. Yeah, he's beloved

1:01:44

and deservedly so understandably so and all these good things.

1:01:46

I know like I've not been on him for a

1:01:48

while, but I couldn't love the rest of them or

1:01:50

various points in his career. And

1:01:53

like on as a grown ass adult as well. Yeah, like you love

1:01:55

Moxie as much as you loved your favorite wrestler as a kid in

1:01:57

2020. There

1:02:00

are certain wrestlers that if they'd have performed here

1:02:02

or played out in their match we'd have never

1:02:04

heard the end of it as criticism towards them.

1:02:06

There they are again, typical this, typical that. Because

1:02:09

from the very beginning the announcers were laying it on

1:02:11

thick about the DQ and you're like, what's going on

1:02:13

here? Like they're fair enough that it's going to be

1:02:15

fought on the New Japan rules but that's taken as

1:02:18

red, right? It's for the IWGP title. Why are we,

1:02:20

they were like, oh he's not going to job by

1:02:22

DQ is he? And it's like no he's not but

1:02:24

they're going to fly as close to the sun as

1:02:26

they can on that one in order to make it

1:02:28

look like if it wasn't that bloody red shoes, John

1:02:30

Moxley would be allowed to what? Losed

1:02:32

about by DQ by using a chair you f***ing idiot.

1:02:34

Like he's actually trying to save you from yourself here

1:02:37

but it's being presented instead as this mishmash of get

1:02:39

out of the bloody way ref I'm trying to just

1:02:41

be the hardest guy in the world as usual. And

1:02:43

then I, and that leads to, like

1:02:45

not indirectly leads to that mess

1:02:48

of a counter reversal sequence because

1:02:50

like the Destino can't put him away until it

1:02:52

does and you know they're like they're, it's

1:02:56

giving him a finish, a kick out kind of but

1:02:58

not really. Like this was a

1:03:00

political minefield playing out in front of us whether

1:03:03

or not it was just company politics or wrestler

1:03:05

politics, I don't know. They had

1:03:08

woeful chemistry when they've had far better matches in the

1:03:10

past which makes you think there was something more to

1:03:12

this one because they've shown that they can do stuff

1:03:14

together. The night though has looked

1:03:16

as finished as he did here more

1:03:18

than once this year. Yeah. And

1:03:21

last year actually so it might be, it might be a night

1:03:23

will think to be completely honest. Absolutely.

1:03:25

And it does but it finds the

1:03:27

Moxley character at the least interesting it's

1:03:29

ever been to. So it was a

1:03:31

like confluence of factors here realistically. Like

1:03:34

everyone's saying it now. Like we were kind of

1:03:36

the first guys to say maybe the BCC are

1:03:38

terrible actually. Yeah. And like I've been kind

1:03:40

of on Jon Moxley's case as a character for a while.

1:03:43

I feel like this was the night that a lot

1:03:45

of people woke up to that and I

1:03:48

don't get a lot of joy. Some people are saying this similar in the

1:03:50

chat. I don't get a lot of joy out of it but I do

1:03:52

feel like if you listen you watch your nose. You've been on this one

1:03:54

for a bit and there was going to be a reckoning of sorts and

1:03:56

it was here. You know, before we get to

1:03:58

the main event, I've got one more take on this. right. And

1:04:02

I want to say that I'm like some

1:04:04

kind of Oracle who foresaw the events of

1:04:06

Brawl out, but I looked

1:04:08

at the sort of punks demeanor

1:04:11

up to that press conference where I was like, well,

1:04:14

he's been a good heel here because he's just

1:04:17

so mischievous. He's got

1:04:19

this sort of vile attitude. It's not

1:04:22

something's happening here. I sense at the

1:04:24

time, like there's something

1:04:26

about the CM Punk character at the minute and

1:04:28

you know, lo and behold, Moxley's

1:04:31

booking and

1:04:34

demeanor throughout

1:04:37

the past 12 months. Put

1:04:39

it this way, right? And it could be happy as Larry

1:04:41

and just wants to do this, that

1:04:43

dour hard man, which is so boring to

1:04:45

me at the minute. This

1:04:48

is one of those deals where if you

1:04:50

look at his demeanor and you factor in

1:04:52

also the booking, if there's a story that

1:04:54

drops the next two weeks of our Moxley

1:04:56

is not happy in AEW.

1:04:59

He hasn't been happy in quite

1:05:02

some time. There's talk of him

1:05:04

potentially reassessing his future and bar,

1:05:07

bar, and it's this big, long, I'd be like, of

1:05:09

course, of course that's feels

1:05:12

like there's some kind of story

1:05:15

lurking underneath all of this because I mean,

1:05:17

it's just so odd. Like, I know what

1:05:19

he wants to be protected and I know

1:05:21

I as a good wrestler should, but

1:05:24

like this,

1:05:28

why did he, why did the BCC be

1:05:30

FTR revolution?

1:05:33

Remember the crack when Brian and

1:05:35

Dave had that famous argument about

1:05:38

all wrestling logic is stupid and Alvarez was

1:05:40

like apoplectic and all the rest of it

1:05:42

and Meltzer's point at the time was,

1:05:44

well, they're going to get a title shot down the

1:05:47

line, but you build two matches and affect the tournament

1:05:49

and then the winner of that phase of the BCC.

1:05:51

No, I think Moxley just wanted to win. You

1:05:54

know what I mean? Whether it's deserved or

1:05:56

otherwise, the booking patterns would indicate that Jon

1:05:58

Moxley doesn't really want to to do jobs

1:06:01

and that is not

1:06:03

as engaged. He doesn't feel as dialed in.

1:06:06

Remember the, give me the ball promo. Can

1:06:08

you imagine him cutting that now? It

1:06:10

doesn't feel like a man who wants the ball. It

1:06:13

feels like a man who just wants a series

1:06:15

of small victories when he can get them and with

1:06:18

AW everyone seems to get what they want. So he

1:06:20

gets them when he wants. And

1:06:22

who is the IWGP heavyweight champion? So it

1:06:25

doesn't really work, but he just seems

1:06:29

to want to get a lot of small

1:06:31

wins just to

1:06:33

like tie himself over. It doesn't

1:06:35

feel like it's a happy relationship between

1:06:37

Mox and AW one bit. The match

1:06:39

was fabulous, but

1:06:42

he beat Orange Cassidy and

1:06:44

obviously things went a bit awry because of injuries and the like,

1:06:47

but the goal ultimately was just to get the belt

1:06:49

back on Orange Cassidy and like that international title ring

1:06:51

really meant something. It was like, in

1:06:54

hindsight, Orange Cassidy possibly should have

1:06:56

gone over there and instead it was just another

1:06:58

night where Moxie kind of is indestructible.

1:07:01

And I don't know. I don't think he's, I

1:07:03

used to say about Cody, I

1:07:05

think when people were calling for him to do more

1:07:07

jobs and it was like, no, you have to understand

1:07:09

the jobs have got to have value. You've got to

1:07:12

win a lot more than you lose when you're someone

1:07:14

like a Cody Rhodes. Moxley is in that position, but

1:07:17

there have been multiple times where everybody has called for

1:07:19

defeat and in a lot of cases it's tagged. So

1:07:21

he doesn't even need to be on the losing. You

1:07:23

can just be on the losing side and

1:07:26

it doesn't happen. The medium is flawed. Very quickly

1:07:28

before the main event, which we're going to be

1:07:30

really happy about, right? Consider

1:07:33

John Moxley and Chris Jericho. As I understand

1:07:35

it, they're actually mates, but you can't see

1:07:37

that. They got those like nice

1:07:39

deals when the company was a bit disarray and it

1:07:41

was like, we need leaders. Yeah, we'll do it. Yeah.

1:07:44

Very clever. Very, very clever. You look at

1:07:46

John Moxley and Chris Jericho and despite apparently

1:07:48

being a bit disarray, you

1:07:51

know, you can't get two different characters, what

1:07:53

they want to do with pro wrestling. I

1:07:55

mean, you've got the death jitsu guy versus

1:07:58

the, it should all be sports. and

1:08:00

you know all the rest of it Chris

1:08:04

Jericho pretty much loses I

1:08:06

know it's there's losing and

1:08:10

then there's two different kinds of losing but

1:08:12

you know ostensibly you'll do a job job

1:08:15

oxley doesn't want to do that people actually seem

1:08:17

to like and appreciate John

1:08:19

Moxley people don't Chris

1:08:21

Jericho for you know the

1:08:23

rumors and the reports and the in

1:08:25

the illusions about what he's done and

1:08:28

the fact that he's just seems like a

1:08:31

transparent carney and all the rest of it you never

1:08:33

get that out of John Moxley and

1:08:36

one wins all the time one loses one seems

1:08:38

sound one doesn't but they've both been around for

1:08:40

too long and one promotion mmm isn't

1:08:43

the element of that with the books I find the

1:08:45

books more entertaining than these two but it's a it's

1:08:48

a diminished return of the 2021 run that's what it is for

1:08:52

wrestling as a medium episodic TV

1:08:55

thank you Moxley is one

1:08:57

of the bigger names that would be like

1:09:00

a significant of the times jump wouldn't

1:09:02

he like the guy that did that

1:09:04

Jericho podcast and then returns and

1:09:06

you get the shield and it's like you you

1:09:08

really didn't think you would ever see my his

1:09:10

but he loves his life in rest yeah too

1:09:12

much to do it his if he comes back

1:09:14

now like his credibility won't get harmed because it's

1:09:16

like how many times did he name drop

1:09:18

the back on my podcast he said like he basically

1:09:21

alluded I did this but that's triple H3

1:09:23

it's all Vince all Vince all

1:09:25

Vince all Vince and Vince has gone gone so

1:09:27

mox can go back if you would ever do

1:09:29

it with his head held I'd say alien dollar

1:09:32

shield matches and I came back to a different

1:09:34

time it just doesn't the vibes

1:09:36

are off between mox and a w right now and

1:09:38

this match just sort of crystallized it for me and

1:09:41

my theory about agent Ambrose would

1:09:43

be completely vindicated it's been five

1:09:45

years when a

1:09:47

long game by yeah when all game right that's

1:09:50

it I want five more years of John Moxley straight singles

1:09:52

wins no feeds let's talk

1:09:54

main event siege swerve versus osprey obviously

1:09:56

by follow along his match on the

1:09:58

cards and just Every second of it.

1:10:01

Yeah. And every single second of it.

1:10:03

Um, where very few do

1:10:05

increasingly, this felt like the

1:10:07

main event. It felt like

1:10:11

Swerve Strickland has become the diamond. Swerve

1:10:13

Strickland, I think the cynicism,

1:10:17

apprehension and criticism

1:10:20

of Swerve in the very early

1:10:22

part of his reign remains

1:10:24

wanted. This is not one of those situations

1:10:26

where it's like AEW and Swerve got it

1:10:28

right from day one and you just didn't

1:10:31

notice it. Like he's

1:10:33

done what a world champion should do.

1:10:35

He did last night and he's done

1:10:37

with his funny promos and his good

1:10:39

personal promos over the

1:10:41

past few weeks. He's done what a world champion

1:10:43

needs to do. And it's so hard to

1:10:46

do as well. Give me the ball. Yeah, it's give me the

1:10:48

ball. So I will be better this week than I was the

1:10:50

last. It's like the anti-John Moxley

1:10:53

Moxes. I know we're piling on him, but

1:10:55

there's been a regression there with Moxley. There's

1:10:57

been a, does he, how much is he still want it? How good are

1:10:59

you still really Swerve is the new Moxley

1:11:01

and the respective. I'll be better every single

1:11:03

week last week, but we better

1:11:05

the next week. He's doing that world champion thing.

1:11:08

And this match was very much that I thought,

1:11:10

like I just didn't want Osprey to win.

1:11:12

I thought Swerve was equally as good in

1:11:14

this match. Um, he

1:11:17

just carried himself like a true main

1:11:19

event that he's been legitimized now. He's

1:11:21

earned it at long last. There

1:11:23

was spots in here that were absolutely

1:11:25

out of this world. Believable. Um, as

1:11:28

you'd expect, um, like

1:11:30

the double

1:11:32

knees. When if

1:11:34

you just notice Osprey just jumps,

1:11:37

I wish they hadn't replayed it quite so often. I

1:11:40

was going to flag it for the same reason. Cause when

1:11:42

you, it's all kind of all you look at is a

1:11:44

little hop. Yeah, he does that little hop, but it's, that's

1:11:46

the art of it in the morning. That's the art. Compare

1:11:49

that hop to Austin theory, jumping

1:11:51

up from the stunner into

1:11:53

the RKO. I mean, levels

1:11:55

levels, bruv. Um, this was

1:11:57

electrifying. I

1:12:00

thought selling in here was really, really good. It was a little

1:12:02

bit slower and a little bit less flashy than I thought, but

1:12:04

that's true substantial main

1:12:07

event drama. I

1:12:09

could have done without the Don Callas carry

1:12:11

on, but I think I'd made my piece

1:12:13

with it before the finish. Does that drive

1:12:15

generous hand wave criticism

1:12:17

potentially? But

1:12:20

even with the machinations of the finish,

1:12:23

I didn't leave that match thinking that Swerve

1:12:25

was some paper champion. I just thought, that's

1:12:27

just an AW thing. Can Swerve appear

1:12:30

to be the man in spite of that

1:12:32

kind of corny stuff in the last three,

1:12:34

five minutes? Yes, and he did. This

1:12:37

was a necessary,

1:12:39

worthy main event. I

1:12:42

don't know if I even have it in my top five matches

1:12:44

of the year, but certainly top 10. And

1:12:47

I just love Swerve. He's really, really

1:12:49

become the champ. He's my champion now.

1:12:52

Oh my god. I feel like I should have. Yes, of

1:12:54

course. Yeah, I thought this

1:12:56

was like, stunningly worked an agent. This

1:12:59

was the match that both of

1:13:01

them needed. Like we've

1:13:03

used, I think the Ray Phoenix one, but there's another

1:13:05

example that's just getting my mind at this point. One

1:13:07

of the collision ones. Kyle

1:13:09

O'Reilly. Yeah. Oh.

1:13:13

Just fall. Is this, is this, is that

1:13:15

thing we were initially predicted was improved completely

1:13:17

wrong, but was it turned out we weren't

1:13:19

as wrong as we thought? And is the

1:13:21

Osprey thing like everything else going to get

1:13:23

swallowed up by formula, by episodic television, by

1:13:26

the repetitiveness, all that sort of stuff? Was

1:13:28

this worry starting to creep in right

1:13:31

at the time? Fortuitously, for that

1:13:33

Swerve is just, again, give me the ball.

1:13:35

He's found himself. He's sensed that he's forced

1:13:37

so much more of himself onto this product,

1:13:39

perhaps as a result of getting kind of

1:13:41

pied in that first dynamite after he won

1:13:43

the belt. Maybe he heard the criticism, slash

1:13:46

felt it himself, and thought, I'm not going

1:13:48

to stand for this. And he's fought for

1:13:50

it, maybe. He's notoriously a recede keeper. I

1:13:53

think it is too much like on Twitter. Is that, oh, you

1:13:55

didn't believe me? Well, you should have this person. I think it

1:13:57

does that too much. Yeah. But it's, he's got that chance. He's

1:14:00

got that champion mentality. We sort

1:14:02

with you Bellingham last night. Keep

1:14:06

talking. Who else? Keep talking.

1:14:09

Keep chapping. I'll prove you wrong.

1:14:11

I hate the cliche because wrestlers regurgitate so often. He's

1:14:13

got the chip on his shoulder. No, I'm better than...

1:14:16

Don't doubt me. How dare you. I

1:14:19

love that about him. I'm very much relieved

1:14:21

with the finish, with the screwdriver spot and

1:14:23

then subsequently the finish. It felt

1:14:25

like there was sufficient gap that it wasn't too... Because

1:14:27

my big concern the moment it started happening, I was

1:14:30

like, uh oh. And I was immediately thinking of you

1:14:32

and how you get like, is the melodrama going to

1:14:35

overshadow this? But it

1:14:37

felt self contained enough to not... If they had to

1:14:39

do it, there's worse ways they could have done it.

1:14:42

Yeah. Like, the real Will Osprey though, just the

1:14:45

nearest opportunity. Tell

1:14:47

Don Carlos, obviously we're not mates anymore.

1:14:49

I'm barely any stable. Let's just end this and then

1:14:51

he can get his ass kicked or whatever. Do

1:14:54

not do the carry on. If I'm unstable or not, bruv,

1:14:56

I don't know what to think. Stop

1:14:59

it. Stop doing that. They are not

1:15:01

together. Don't insult me

1:15:03

with the notion that there might be some

1:15:06

kind of relationship between Carlos and Osprey that

1:15:08

could be saved. Get on

1:15:10

with this story now. Keep Osprey. I

1:15:13

can't believe I'm going to say this. Keep Osprey as the intelligent

1:15:15

babyface. But keep... He's a good guy, so he

1:15:17

should at least not be... He should be protected by his booking

1:15:19

as to not be so stupid as to not see this turn

1:15:22

coming. I mean, having been part of the Carlos family

1:15:24

and been in Carlos's orbit for such a long time.

1:15:27

Like, the match just from the

1:15:29

way it was worked, I think Osprey needed

1:15:32

one with a little bit less Ospreyness

1:15:35

and this had it. Yeah. Like,

1:15:37

it didn't... It's quite an

1:15:39

elegant performance from him. Yeah, it's the family

1:15:42

guy thing that you were saying a little

1:15:44

while ago. It didn't insist upon itself with

1:15:46

all the Osprey tropes towards the end. It

1:15:48

was more... And I think he realised Swerve

1:15:50

needs to be the guy. Dial

1:15:52

it back, let Swerve shine and it

1:15:54

can still benefit you. And I say let Swerve shine like

1:15:56

he couldn't do it himself. But you know what I mean?

1:15:59

Like, stop this from... accidentally becoming a big Osprey

1:16:01

bombs match by the end. And because they never

1:16:03

did that, it was 10 times

1:16:05

better for it. There's a class night

1:16:08

in the future where Osprey becomes world champion or

1:16:10

an even better rematch than this one. But I

1:16:12

think this was like the exact right match at

1:16:14

the exact right time for these exact wrestlers where

1:16:16

they're at in it. They will no longer be

1:16:18

the swerve is a

1:16:21

paper champion as long as it's in the same company

1:16:23

as well Osprey. And where the fiction or reality, this

1:16:26

match helps kind of complete that

1:16:28

little puzzle. I

1:16:31

wanted same message. I wanted swerve to

1:16:33

win here. I still think the booking knack

1:16:35

this a little bit because I would have loved to

1:16:37

go in this genuinely if Osprey was gonna win. And

1:16:39

I didn't, but I was rooting for swerve and I'm

1:16:41

rooting for McWembley. I don't care who

1:16:43

he faces. I don't really want this title ring

1:16:46

to end. So they've potentially got a bit of

1:16:48

a hot hand here because- Unless it's Jeff Jarrett.

1:16:50

Well, obviously if he wins a tournament, different story.

1:16:52

But like they've got a hot hand here because

1:16:54

if it is, let's say a hangman page or

1:16:57

if a heel figure that could potentially take this

1:16:59

belt at Wembley, I don't want to see it

1:17:01

happen. I'm rooting for swerve, the baby face to

1:17:03

hold on as baby face champion. So they've done

1:17:05

away with that worry about their two consecutive transitional

1:17:08

champions thing as well. Like a real success story

1:17:10

in 2024 is Swerve Strickland. I doubt with Swerve

1:17:12

and I shouldn't have. He's got

1:17:14

the ball. Yeah. Give me the ball. He's

1:17:17

got it. He's completely proved me wrong. He's been

1:17:19

great. That's answered some questions from the chat as

1:17:21

we wrap things up here. Mark Lee Willis says,

1:17:23

Hey guys, is there a chance it's a four

1:17:25

way at all in Swerve Osprey, MJF and Garcia

1:17:27

all linked? And is it fair to

1:17:30

highlight AW's roster size when WWE have a similar one?

1:17:32

So two different questions there, but. AW

1:17:34

seems miles bigger and they rely, or

1:17:37

they don't need to, but they use

1:17:39

imports a lot. I think

1:17:41

that's how you manage the size of the roster. And I

1:17:43

think Lovek's done a better job quite frankly, in recent to

1:17:46

anyone in WWE who has that Takeshita feeling.

1:17:49

The minute, not really. Brand split

1:17:52

obviously helps a lot more. Yes. Perception

1:17:56

is reality a lot in wrestling as well. And like,

1:17:59

it's not a, it's not. not a bad faith take to say

1:18:01

the rest is too big. It's how it feels. My

1:18:03

worry Mark is I think the world title

1:18:06

match will be kept between Swerve and Danielson

1:18:08

at this point. My

1:18:10

worry is that Osprey, Garcia, MGF

1:18:13

is a three way. Nah,

1:18:16

come on. We've just been there with

1:18:18

Wembley and you've just had a significantly

1:18:20

smaller gate. That's not piss about it's,

1:18:23

it's Wembley. It's give us your best singles matches.

1:18:25

And guess what? It's huge. I don't want Garcia

1:18:28

in there. No, no, no. I'm saying that that's

1:18:30

a singles match. But he's a brand Garcia's like,

1:18:33

and he's not going away in this narrative. Do

1:18:36

you obviously I know there's a week apart but it's

1:18:38

still basically the same problem. You've got to pay for

1:18:40

you pretty much straight afterwards. You

1:18:42

having Garcia the kind of hot years right now with

1:18:44

it maybe all in is not his night, but all

1:18:46

out is. It's not really hot at all. No,

1:18:48

but you've got time. You've got the summer

1:18:50

to get hot. I guess. And then Wembley isn't

1:18:52

quite right but Chicago's right there to give him

1:18:55

his like massive night. Like Orange Cassidy, I guess,

1:18:57

and Moxley. Yeah. I mean, I

1:18:59

hope that's, I do not want to see a three

1:19:01

or a four way. It's another compromise and they'll compromise

1:19:03

way too much at Wembley. And I could give

1:19:05

a toss about all out. Chicago

1:19:08

gets enough shows. Guess what they've got a

1:19:11

show this week. Yeah. Dynamite and

1:19:13

the tickets on being so lucky. Give a toss about Chicago.

1:19:16

Sailor Herman says happy Canada day, happy Canada day.

1:19:18

So you say sailor, I'm taking my 30 year

1:19:21

old brother to his first live wrestling event

1:19:23

this Saturday. Hopefully he doesn't fall asleep. Like I

1:19:25

did try to watch forbidden door. Steve

1:19:29

Nicola Kapoulis, AKA, Edward Shiraz, and

1:19:31

says, good eye prickly Maffins. I

1:19:34

know you're reviewing the show, but

1:19:36

it feels like Danny Garcia, Swerve, Osprey, thanks

1:19:38

Edge, and MJF will be team AEW for

1:19:40

war games. Who will be the fifth and

1:19:42

who wins? Can't see a Garcia is

1:19:45

that. I hope whatever

1:19:47

happens, whatever happens, they need to shift some

1:19:49

goddamn tickets. So I think we'll see some

1:19:51

heat angles coming up. And I think the

1:19:53

identity of those men in the

1:19:55

match will be revealed shortly. I

1:19:58

used to, the elite lose. Some

1:20:01

kind of stipulation where it's like your powers are

1:20:03

revoked and then they can just be

1:20:05

annoying, prelim, heel, dickheads for

1:20:07

a while. They're

1:20:09

entertaining but when they're tethered to

1:20:12

this illogical storyline it will always

1:20:14

undermine my investment in the actual

1:20:17

act. They just want to

1:20:19

be goofballs and then this

1:20:21

idea that they want power and they

1:20:24

have a little bit but then it's immediately taken

1:20:26

away. It's been a mess since day one of

1:20:28

the angle. If they can

1:20:31

just free themselves of the plot hole

1:20:33

and just allow them to swim into

1:20:35

these beautiful ocean waters of daft bollocks I'll be

1:20:37

happy. There's yeah there's more to get out of

1:20:39

so the babyface is winning and as you say

1:20:41

that's like you don't even need to slip it

1:20:43

up overtly just to say it's powers on the

1:20:45

line here either all goes back to Tony Carn

1:20:48

on none of it does and they lose and

1:20:50

that's that. Like it goes

1:20:52

I'm with you said blood and guts just has never really

1:20:54

quite delivered but the one I always think of where it's

1:20:56

like I have tried really hard to tell a couple of

1:20:58

stories here is the one with the big finish on the

1:21:00

roof with the Claudio and Kingston

1:21:03

thing yeah with the babyfaces

1:21:05

you can bring it together for one night but

1:21:07

it doesn't mean that they can't be rivals heading

1:21:09

into the web. I'm not even pitching Can they

1:21:11

coexist I'm just saying you're supposed to be fighting

1:21:13

for AWV you were allowed this one night. Swerve

1:21:15

theoretically could be partnering with four of his top

1:21:17

contenders but for this one night you get it

1:21:20

done as a team. You can tell some stories

1:21:22

inside the cage and if Paige's hang on Paige

1:21:24

is involved on one team or the

1:21:26

other which does feel like if

1:21:28

not the wild card that's the direction. Which

1:21:31

is really exciting by the way this

1:21:33

hang on Paige video. That's on collision

1:21:35

wasn't it yeah yeah like I think

1:21:37

it's really exciting like they're straight away

1:21:39

yeah they've not they've shown you so

1:21:41

much without revealing exactly which

1:21:43

side he's going to be on and that's the perfect way

1:21:45

to book hang on page right now I think. So for

1:21:47

blood and guts I think you're gonna get loads of cool

1:21:49

stories out of it but just bring it bring the power

1:21:51

one to the end. July

1:21:54

24th blood and guts I'll just double check in

1:21:56

there and yes we're far

1:21:58

away we can oh we can You

1:22:00

can all agree that this pay for you is better than watching

1:22:02

England at the Auros. Karthik

1:22:05

says, I can't

1:22:08

believe the feds become the home of the

1:22:10

best main event promos and wrestling angles in

1:22:12

2024. I was hoping to mention

1:22:14

that on the Raw Preview. Obviously we're doing

1:22:16

a different. What annoys me about this is

1:22:18

that, AW

1:22:21

is like, it's

1:22:23

roster of promos man. They need

1:22:26

to do more of them. I agree. They

1:22:28

need to do way more of them. It's John Moxie

1:22:30

doesn't even want to open his mouth.

1:22:33

Yeah, it's half the time. It'll change

1:22:35

as well. Like talent shift and people

1:22:37

get more and less over and things

1:22:40

click and things spark. And like

1:22:43

the thing, the difference, the difference in, like there's a lot

1:22:45

of talk and I said eventually before about the rising tide

1:22:47

rates all shift. We talked a bit. It's

1:22:49

good. That's a good phrase. It's

1:22:52

just like it says a lot about situations.

1:22:55

I've got one that I thought of when I

1:22:57

was making dinner the other night. I was like,

1:22:59

I can't

1:23:01

make an omelet without bringing some eggs. You can't.

1:23:04

It's really smart. So it says

1:23:06

quite a lot about like the creative process

1:23:09

and how we try to get shell everywhere.

1:23:11

Indeed. Then it's like, it's just

1:23:13

talks about the perseverance. I

1:23:15

like that. It's really poetic. Just

1:23:19

go back slightly. That's

1:23:21

really good. When WWE gets hot,

1:23:23

everything else dies, right? It's

1:23:26

when it's this like it's provable fact, right?

1:23:28

When WWE gets really, really hot, everything around

1:23:30

it dies and it's able to put everything

1:23:32

else out of business and leave nothing. That's

1:23:35

not going to happen this time. Yeah, that is not going to be this

1:23:37

is going to be different, right? You could suffer

1:23:39

and suffer and suffer. They're going to get a really great

1:23:41

TV deal. Tony Khan's as good as said it without being

1:23:43

able to reveal the nature of the deal, but they're going

1:23:45

to get a great deal. And even if they're great and

1:23:47

even if they didn't, they'd be fine. They're not going anywhere.

1:23:49

A very stubborn wrestling fan with loads of money is not

1:23:51

going to allow it. So

1:23:53

this is different. Like WWE when

1:23:56

ECW when it's been period all

1:23:58

the textures when It's

1:24:00

different this time around. WWE's boom will come to

1:24:02

an end and AEW will still exist. So we

1:24:04

are entering sort of uncharted territory in that regard.

1:24:07

And there will come a time where Triple

1:24:09

H can't, he's kind of run through

1:24:11

all of his things or there's just not quite the talent coming.

1:24:13

Whatever it is, think about it like NXT. You

1:24:16

just hit the end here. And then a

1:24:18

product is clearly better, objectively better in every

1:24:20

single respect. There is nothing else left for

1:24:22

you to do with this. That

1:24:24

will come a day where that happens with

1:24:26

this version of WWE. And then AEW becomes

1:24:28

the promo company again. You

1:24:31

know what I mean? It's just, it is WWE now.

1:24:33

It is WWE right now. What's

1:24:35

been on the level like Punk and Cody and AEW

1:24:37

this year? Has there been anything promo

1:24:39

wise? Nope.

1:24:42

And that was like unthinkable. Even in 2023, divisive as it was,

1:24:46

calling MJF when it was good was

1:24:49

great. Yeah. It's gonna turn on

1:24:51

him. You still felt something, but it's just not been there yet.

1:24:54

Mr. Phoenix says, not ideal for the optics,

1:24:57

the men's match makes the card, the women's

1:24:59

owners match gets shunted to the very crowded

1:25:01

kickoff and the midcard title is held up

1:25:03

while their main is being used for dated

1:25:05

HLA. That

1:25:07

fair? No, he doesn't say anything

1:25:09

fair at all. So not answering the question. I

1:25:12

feel like even I'd say, I don't think

1:25:14

you can just reduce Mina and Tony and

1:25:16

Marais are just. No, it's not just titillation.

1:25:18

There's an element of that, but it's not

1:25:20

just rooted in that. The point about the,

1:25:24

I mean, I'm not gonna mourn the fact that a Saraya match

1:25:27

wasn't on the main card. No. What are

1:25:29

we doing here? What are we doing

1:25:31

here? If

1:25:33

the argument is, I hate getting drawn into

1:25:35

this cause I know what he does and

1:25:37

he does it on purpose. The argument here on

1:25:39

merit just of selling a pay-per-view, the

1:25:42

business model with even on board of it, but

1:25:44

it's still a business model of AW is, it's

1:25:46

where the best wrestler includes in the tagline,

1:25:49

right? Who's the

1:25:51

best? Shingo Takagi or Saraya. All

1:25:53

right, but then don't put Saraya and put Serena Deeben. Don't

1:25:56

put it in it. I don't get it, but

1:25:58

we can defend him. him. I'm just

1:26:00

saying like the torn. I agree that match isn't strong

1:26:03

enough to go on the pay-per-view. Make a stronger match.

1:26:06

I get it but like invested in it. But also

1:26:08

Matt Rains does say shout out to Matt Rains. Zero

1:26:11

RB nothing but matches is criminal too.

1:26:14

You're wearing out your crowd for dark

1:26:16

elevation ass matches. Lucha Bros and Mystico

1:26:18

aside. I love you brothers. It's coming.

1:26:21

Yeah I agree completely. Hope you're well Matt. It's not

1:26:23

coming on. I don't agree with that at all but

1:26:25

we're absolutely hopeless. Four matches was it? That

1:26:27

was five. Five. Kyle Fletcher

1:26:30

beats Sir Pentagon three minutes. I

1:26:33

don't know if that made the actual zero hour

1:26:35

but what's the point in that? It's a two

1:26:37

hour pre-show so five matches over two hours is

1:26:39

virtually an entire takeover and then the pay-per-view starts.

1:26:41

I'm telling you now AEW

1:26:44

will never get hot with this

1:26:46

model. Like the pay-per-views

1:26:48

are like no

1:26:51

one's asking them. People like Warner are saying you

1:26:53

have to do five hours of TV. That's clearly

1:26:55

what's happened here. Like 60%

1:26:57

of which was kind of

1:26:59

meaningless. If

1:27:01

you're doing 60% of inessential optional

1:27:05

weekly TV in Big Egg Wrestling Universe

1:27:07

on a near monthly basis you will

1:27:09

never make people want to properly see

1:27:12

it in the same way. You're just

1:27:14

overwhelming people completely. I agree with Matt

1:27:16

Rains completely. What's the

1:27:18

point in doing four,

1:27:21

five pre-show? It's a joke.

1:27:23

That's a dynamite. People

1:27:26

want their 60 bucks worth though.

1:27:29

Well increasingly they don't. They increasingly don't. Look at

1:27:31

the ratings. Look at the look at the look

1:27:33

at the gates. Less should

1:27:35

be more. Tony carnal never get it. Oh

1:27:38

well a lot of people that think we're

1:27:40

just tired Brits. Not enough, not enough, not enough,

1:27:42

not enough, not enough. Look at the look at

1:27:44

the business metrics. I am right on this. Final

1:27:47

cut. Not right about everything. Look I've just said I

1:27:49

was wrong about Swerve and his ability to truly be

1:27:51

the guy. I was wrong about that. I am right

1:27:53

about this. Yeah. Final couple of questions.

1:27:56

Kaz says, hey lads with the rankings on and off do

1:27:58

you think a league system would work? work or is the

1:28:00

roster too big? You can use

1:28:03

win-loss streaks for storylines. Top seven qualify for

1:28:05

the CC promotion relegation to and from the

1:28:07

Ring of Honor as well. The

1:28:09

promotion to and from Ring of Honor earnestly

1:28:12

isn't the worst idea. A relegation

1:28:14

six-pointer is what I'm kind of into

1:28:16

something like that. Like the rankings, all

1:28:18

of it should exist in a very

1:28:20

unspoken way. Like you should, if

1:28:23

things aren't going great. I don't mean results KFA

1:28:25

wise, I just mean performance level, quarter hours, all

1:28:27

the data they use. If things aren't really going

1:28:29

your way at the moment Ring of Honor is

1:28:31

the best place to go, hide, refine, come back

1:28:33

with something hot. Just do whatever. I'm certainly hiding

1:28:35

Ring of Honor. Yeah, likewise if

1:28:38

the point at which an act gets so hot that they

1:28:40

feel too big for Ring of Honor then they move up.

1:28:43

But you don't outright say it. Like relegation is

1:28:45

the sort of a disastrous term in pro wrestling.

1:28:49

Imagine losing that match, right off you go to

1:28:51

Warner Club. Anyway pay more for honor club.

1:28:54

It doesn't really work does it? But the

1:28:56

rankings has always been the good faith argument

1:28:58

on rankings just as this pitch

1:29:02

is. It should exist without saying so. It

1:29:05

used to be something that really helped the

1:29:07

booking instead of becoming this thing that they wanted

1:29:09

to do away with because it was stopping

1:29:11

them. Too much hard work. And

1:29:16

be fair with it as well because you were saying like when

1:29:18

people like go see us on a

1:29:20

run. No offense but is he?

1:29:23

It should only ever have been

1:29:25

interpreted as a guide. I do

1:29:27

like the league idea right but

1:29:29

let's use a real sports analogy

1:29:31

for the sports oriented aspiring company

1:29:33

right. If you look at tennis,

1:29:37

right, Wimbledon, Wimbledon.

1:29:41

There are world tennis

1:29:44

rankings, right, that

1:29:46

no one pays attention to. It's all about the tournaments

1:29:48

and the grand slams. In

1:29:51

soccer, football. If

1:29:54

you look at the Nations

1:29:56

League, no one cares about who

1:29:58

wins that. Who wins the most matches over an accumulated

1:30:00

amount of time. And if wrestling's

1:30:03

entertainment as well, like if someone gets hot,

1:30:05

oh, you can't be in a title match

1:30:07

because you're 17th in a 50

1:30:09

person league and it's November. So we'll have to

1:30:11

wait for it to reset. If someone comes the

1:30:13

biggest star in the world over two weeks, I'd

1:30:17

love it. It's the logical extreme that

1:30:19

can it work. It just can't work.

1:30:22

Um, final question. Um, whilst

1:30:24

we did really enjoy this pay for you, I'm not

1:30:26

trying to put a damp run at the end, but

1:30:28

it's a good question from also love you. He says,

1:30:30

uh, GZ peeps. I had to turn it down with

1:30:32

the intro. Yeah. Sorry. I was always for that. Uh,

1:30:35

the boys are back on my screen. Do you

1:30:37

think the flair of forbidden door is gone? Yes.

1:30:39

Yeah. I mean, it's got a

1:30:41

new Japan is as cold as ice. It only worked in

1:30:43

2022 and I've made this

1:30:45

point before it only worked in

1:30:48

2022 because people wanted it to

1:30:50

work and people know sold the

1:30:52

reality of the situation. Like

1:30:55

suspending disbelief is how wrestling works to make it

1:30:57

work in their own heads. Cause it was such

1:30:59

a cool thing to happen. I said

1:31:01

it like Clark Connors was received as a

1:31:03

breakthrough star. Has anyone cared about them since

1:31:05

I'm not being harsh, but that's the reality

1:31:07

of the situation. People wanted it to work.

1:31:09

It was untenable all along. It came around

1:31:11

a little bit too late. The pandemic obviously

1:31:14

didn't help. Um, the relations between

1:31:17

new Japan and AEW, the promotion,

1:31:19

which announced

1:31:22

its launch outside of the Tokyo dome that

1:31:26

was going to piss them off. I mean,

1:31:28

the optics that were horrendous. They made some

1:31:30

really political mistakes early. The relationship got repaired.

1:31:32

I'm glad it did. If nothing else, it

1:31:34

gives, you know, orange casting will offspring that

1:31:36

great night. It's all,

1:31:38

it's just, I would, well,

1:31:41

not doing away with it. The doubling up. That's

1:31:43

the, that's the, that is the AEW way. But

1:31:45

yeah, I mean, as a concept, it's just once

1:31:49

the novelty wore off and it was

1:31:51

always going to, and it now has

1:31:53

you've revealed two cool promotions, not

1:31:55

sharpening one another's iron. The way to buy

1:31:57

a forbidden door 2025. to

1:32:00

make New Japan hard. Well, would be to make New Japan their

1:32:02

own team for the night and do it like

1:32:05

in Japan somewhere. They're kind of doing that. But they're doubling

1:32:07

up as such as. And it's like, you get that? You

1:32:09

get the egg on January 5th and there'll still be forbidden

1:32:11

doors and cargo or somewhere. I think both of those shows

1:32:13

sound great. Like

1:32:15

that's how you could have done it. I would take it

1:32:17

quite some first time. It was stark this year. It was

1:32:19

stark this year. No one really cared about Naito. No one

1:32:21

really cared about Shingo. Oh

1:32:23

God. They're all guard as well.

1:32:25

I then knew in an AW world and they still

1:32:27

do care. They still do not care. Sad,

1:32:29

but it's reality. Reality

1:32:32

is sad. It

1:32:35

is honestly the f***ing feds on top and I'm miserable. Well,

1:32:38

that is now your thoughts on forbidden door,

1:32:40

either in the comment section or on X

1:32:42

at what culture WWE. Watch, take a follow

1:32:44

all three of us. You can follow Michael

1:32:46

Hanford at Michael Hanford or Michael Sidgwick at

1:32:48

Serena D was magically died on the last

1:32:50

pay-per-view. M Sidgwick, you follow me at Adam

1:32:52

Wilboulton. Follow us all at what culture WWE

1:32:55

and make sure you subscribe to what culture wrestling, wherever you get your

1:32:57

podcasts from for daily wrestling podcast, the rule

1:32:59

preview and smackdown review is available right now as a

1:33:01

podcast. You want to go and listen to it. Thanks

1:33:03

to everyone who joined us live on YouTube, by the

1:33:05

way. Thank you for your comments

1:33:07

and your questions. Your donations always much appreciated, but

1:33:10

for now, this has been the forbidden door review.

1:33:12

My thanks to Hamlet Sidgwick. Thank you for joining

1:33:14

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