0:03

What you're about to here is a

0:05

conversation between Esther Perel and Trevor Noah.

0:07

It was recorded in front of a

0:09

live audience at South By Southwest on

0:12

the Backstage. Good.

0:16

Morning everyone Hello! Hi

0:20

Trevor. Highest a whole you. We're

0:24

going to be talking about states raid leader, but

0:26

I have a lot of states right now. I.

0:29

Think we're gonna come adjust your microphone and a

0:31

second? Yeah, See,

0:34

I'm sitting Read: a pro. Easy

0:37

use. You hear how I sound?

0:40

A new I mean A. This is

0:43

what I do all the time. so

0:45

I have an intimate relationship with microphones

0:47

and speakers. Okay, nine

0:50

hundred people have intimate relationships with

0:52

people. You

0:55

should try it out. This

0:59

episode of Where Should We

1:01

Begin is very different for

1:03

me because you are. A.

1:06

Guess we are going to be in

1:08

conversation. And. I thought

1:10

why talk we the comedian.

1:13

I nailed. Fun thing that

1:15

comedians are profits. Who. To

1:18

speak, the unspoken skewered the prejudices,

1:20

highlight the hypocrisies and particularly at

1:23

this moment in time To talk

1:25

about the use of Uma, the

1:27

role of humor is like conversation

1:30

that I was very much looking

1:32

forward to. Why did you accept

1:34

to talk to me. I'm

1:37

because I wanted a free

1:39

therapy session. And

1:43

I want it Stood in front of strangers. That's

1:47

Hots. Up. To

1:59

board for. Should we begin com some

2:01

at last ship had activity is a

2:03

word with tend to obsess over and

2:06

I being productive enough is my team

2:08

be productive enough? But how do we

2:10

even measure productivity when our team might

2:12

be distributed across the globe with eleven

2:14

thousand plus employees around the world at

2:17

less? In those a thing or two

2:19

about distributed work, the matter if you

2:21

a team of to or two million

2:23

or issue around the corner or on

2:25

another continent at lesson software said gee

2:28

Wrath, confluence and gloom keep everyone connected.

2:30

And move in together as one

2:32

Sewage Shared goals. Learn how to

2:34

unleashed a potential of your team

2:36

at a lesson That com that's

2:38

A T L A S S

2:40

I A and.com A lesson. Of

2:47

was loved learning from you. you know?

2:49

we always have wonderful conversations whenever we

2:51

speak and. I. I I

2:53

was feel. That. Every discipline,

2:56

whether it's an arts or otherwise, can

2:58

contribute or touches of a distance in

3:00

some way, shape or form. So when

3:02

I, when I speak to an art

3:04

historian, yacht or conversation earlier, I learn

3:06

something about comedy from it's If I

3:08

speak to you know, a linguist a

3:10

learn something about comedy from it's and

3:12

it doesn't even have to apply to

3:14

comedy. but I just find anyone who

3:16

spends a lot of time in their

3:18

fields. Has. Learned certain things that

3:21

are clickable to almost any field and

3:23

any space. And so you know. I

3:25

don't think you can talk about comedy

3:27

without. Talking. About Psychology I don't

3:29

think you can talk about comedy or the

3:32

relationship comedians have with an audience without thinking

3:34

like a therapist. And so I thought, what

3:36

better conversation to have them with somebody who

3:38

I think is is you know at the

3:41

top of their fields. About.

3:43

Comedy and then everything that's not comedy him

3:45

and with the to overlap with of of

3:47

why not. So you

3:50

know: comedy? luster humor?

3:54

Is always been a part of

3:56

the cultural and political landscape right

3:58

to the gladiators. Rome. Before

4:00

they went to their last

4:02

sites they did receive with

4:05

funny stories. That blows my

4:07

mind. That. There is

4:09

another one like. The they do this on the walls we

4:11

were some the worse as they. Would it's they

4:13

would s It was nets

4:15

imagery and and and statements

4:18

that basically. A.

4:20

Highlights: It's what I think is one of the

4:22

things that we don't awesome think about when we

4:24

talk about humor which is that is it is

4:26

our ultimate freedom. Have read

4:28

decides the perspective that we

4:31

will take on some. On.

4:34

It's a defense philosopher. Beck's and who

4:36

really roads a lot about Schumer spoke

4:38

about it as the ultimate freedom and

4:40

book. Katsu roses examine wondering the black

4:43

Plague ahead. He has already storytellers at

4:45

stake In the midst of darkness in

4:47

the midst of the hell did his

4:49

last two years So I wanted to

4:51

ask you is the how does that

4:53

sense and speaks you and what do

4:55

you see is the rule of Uma.

4:57

We have wars right now. we have

5:00

is that palace and we have Ukraine.

5:02

We have Sudan. We have the prime

5:04

of crisis. I mean, we have a

5:06

lot of things to cry about. seven

5:08

and you'll make the laugh. About. Them

5:10

What? I think? You know it's It's interesting

5:12

that you say you can create your reality

5:14

because. I think lost

5:16

A is strange in that's.

5:19

It if we think of all the

5:21

emotions of that were able to express

5:23

will feel. One of

5:25

the things about last others particularly interesting

5:27

to me is it's one of the

5:30

few emotions that robs your pain of

5:32

it's power. Yes,

5:34

Germans. yeah so if if somebody is doing

5:36

something terrible to you and you cry. In

5:39

many ways of gives them power if you

5:41

get angry. in many ways of gives them

5:43

power if you get whatever it is. It

5:45

was a wide range of reactions of emotions

5:48

if gives them power at issue. Last say

5:50

Syrians are. I remember watching movies when I

5:52

was a child and. I would

5:54

see Lego. You know the villain in a in

5:56

a movie gets caught some and getting punched for

5:59

something. Then they would always be

6:01

that seen that you know would be joke or

6:03

someone did stop laughing at Batman Batman punching them

6:05

in. The joke is that Assess assess assess. And

6:09

prisons getting punched and all of a sudden

6:11

the punching almost seems meaningless. Why? Why? why

6:13

bother if this person can laugh while you

6:15

doing that to them? Than

6:17

and don't have to be afraid. It's it's

6:20

and as you has the power. Yes then

6:22

you're doing to them about assists as them

6:24

doing to us. You know it reminds me

6:26

a Use that guy works in a tear

6:29

to projects and we were doing witnessing theater

6:31

of a Theater Arts against but it's good

6:33

but it's We were working with a group

6:35

of she lives who had been in solitary

6:38

confinement sources resisting the penises him. And

6:40

we were trying to be very solemn and

6:43

sanctimonious and humbling really make sure that receptors

6:45

what's the ones who had the horrors of

6:47

their captivity. Then it comes to watch to

6:50

play and it looked at us and said

6:52

but you miss the most important thing and

6:54

we were. Done with it.

6:56

It's. User Uma, You think we survived

6:58

in six solitary confinement by doing some?

7:00

you know we were scratching on the

7:03

was. we were having more, We were

7:05

laughing with the torturers and we had

7:07

the last words. Half. I'm

7:10

not Singapore and of people scratching one wolves

7:12

when things are really bad. Somebody

7:15

to fry. Judges are different and

7:17

in my home. I

7:19

will say I've never been so truck stop with the

7:22

on it sings on the was so. Maybe

7:25

this is an ancient wisdom we

7:27

have, like, it's it's interesting that

7:29

initiative and a spaceman now went

7:31

when they said that. Did

7:33

you? How did you process that? When somebody

7:35

says when solitary confinement we were struggling, we

7:37

would. We went through a lot of pain

7:39

and then you reenact their experience and they

7:41

say you didn't You didn't remember the humor

7:43

or you didn't include the humor. How did

7:46

you process seven? How to change? How useless

7:48

For. As I said we missed

7:50

it read thought we were being

7:52

respectful. By. Been very

7:54

serious in the Texans Tested

7:56

the experience. And activists

7:59

tragic accident. That means

8:01

that you get to decide you

8:03

reactions to the events which you

8:05

can not control. And. That's

8:07

what humor often does it. Yes,

8:09

you, you know, confront the uncontrollable.

8:11

Guess I think you don't treat your

8:14

previous question. I've. Often

8:16

found that she went. You know when people

8:18

say what is you must purpose. I

8:20

go. it's it's like saying what is waters purpose.

8:23

Schumer is as broad as water is. You

8:26

not cycle you can use it's to cook

8:28

or dilute you can use it's too wet

8:30

something you can use it to. I think

8:32

that's that's what Schumer is to deliver as

8:34

your that the you can to the first

8:37

something. There were some parts there's some times

8:39

and some moments where. Schumer. Is

8:41

used as a tool. To.

8:43

You know, like and him in the case of Charlie

8:46

Chaplin for instance, I. Think what

8:48

was amazing about what Charlie Chaplin did as

8:50

he used humor. To bring Hitler

8:52

down to the size that he deserves to be.

8:54

he used humor to remind people that this person

8:56

wasn't a god and this person wasn't impenetrable. That's

8:59

what he used to. It's too because what Hitler

9:01

wanted was for. Want to look at him seriously

9:03

and go. I'm look at me. This is why

9:05

Amps and Solid have more like know let's look

9:08

at him as how we wish to see him.

9:10

That. Was one one use of humor.

9:12

Another type of humor is not as

9:15

the Gallows humor. People laughing at

9:17

the end and in a weird way controlling their

9:19

own destiny and their own as feeling that. Said

9:21

the ultimately the executives Yes

9:24

sometimes. Use humor to connect people. Use

9:26

humans are love to get some of

9:28

the some of the best last I've

9:30

experienced. Have been at funerals and that

9:32

weeks and didn't moments when everybody's is

9:34

sharing a collective grief. And

9:37

someone with punctuate? that's. You.

9:39

Know want to. One of my favorites I'm My favorite

9:41

moments was I'm. Or. My best friends

9:43

in South Africa, his uncle. Was.

9:45

Diagnosed with with cancer was states for

9:48

and he was in the the hospital

9:50

bed and his whole family at Come

9:52

In. And. Essentially, the

9:54

doctor said there's nothing they can do and the

9:56

guy had a few months to live and the

9:59

whole family is gathered. They with him. And.

10:03

His brother leaves the room. Comes

10:06

back after fifteen minutes. With

10:08

an animated face and says guys guys I just spoke

10:10

to the doctor he says the something we can do

10:12

is of the something we can do and and everyone's

10:14

like what any trusted his brother was in the bed

10:16

I mean this man is dying and he looks at

10:18

him. And he says but doctor says

10:20

you you have to see how for you can

10:22

bend and you can use to bend your your

10:24

your rib cage can you bend your head how

10:26

far for can you bend senses I have an

10:29

i i can try to says he says if

10:31

you've been been far forward go all the way

10:33

down and tissue as could buy. And

10:36

everyone lost every one of the men in

10:38

the bed. the family, the Iraq people have

10:40

been crying the whole time. And

10:43

school. This day it is one of the biggest

10:45

loss that a shared in and amongst the families

10:47

and I was some that magical that. The

10:50

story of this man. Dying.

10:53

And he did die. unfortunately. The happy stories

10:55

that that story. When you asked them

10:57

your uncle had cancer or your father

10:59

had cancel, your brother had cancer, single

11:01

me down Man and his ass. Exactly

11:03

exactly. I think that that's what makes

11:06

humor magical is that is it has.

11:08

it serves many purposes. So I

11:10

thought of another one because when

11:12

you look on line, Awesome! What

11:14

she sees, all the physiological benefits

11:16

of last year say that it

11:19

distresses you. It's really reduces cortisone

11:21

levels. It increases endorphins. It's as

11:23

we said, That

11:25

I said and this is resumed. Linked

11:27

to my work is when it that

11:29

you know is the closest you can

11:31

get to a person without touching them.

11:34

Home. How.

11:36

Does that sound to you? While.

11:40

Ah, As

11:43

I would say the system sit with. This. For.

11:46

Us. As

11:49

profound. I think it's

11:52

profound because. Touch.

11:56

Depending on how you hear it, Can.

11:58

Be positive or negative, So I agree

12:00

with you. Because. In many

12:02

ways, Schumer is a perform a way

12:05

that you can touch somebody else. I

12:08

mean look at to sit the

12:10

scenario around the dying men vs.

12:12

years of unity you have said

12:14

he dairy to yes you you

12:16

are consuming vanity you know did

12:18

you steal? been some in the

12:20

house on it really was a

12:22

way to getting very very close.

12:25

To each other. So.

12:29

The reason. I think you're

12:31

you're You're so right as well is

12:33

because. Humor.

12:37

Relies on sharing a reality yes, even

12:39

if it is for a moment in

12:41

time, even if it is just for

12:43

a sentence. That's. What's Uma is

12:45

one of my favorite things about humor

12:48

is. You. Can often tell a

12:50

joke. And. People will laugh before

12:52

they can think about the joke and then

12:54

sometimes. oh god no I don't find that

12:56

funny. And I

12:58

got you've lost. You lost already too

13:00

late. You wanted to go look know

13:02

I shouldn't have, I did. I don't think

13:04

that that's funny is ignore you Loftus.

13:06

Finish the scar it and I find that

13:09

that's what I you know to that point

13:11

of touching somebody without we're getting close

13:13

to them without touching them is. That's what

13:15

Schumer is is your finding a moment

13:17

where you connect with someone. In.

13:20

A said moment of truth. And

13:22

humor by the way required for that's

13:24

maybe with. that's maybe why I find

13:26

it so intimate. it it always requires.

13:29

Proof. I'm if you experience

13:31

because you you use humor and in therapy as

13:33

well. But. Like do

13:35

you find. Would you

13:38

agree? If I was to say that humor

13:40

always has truth? Connected to it

13:42

whereas maybe sex do not. You know

13:44

when someone just tells you a story.

13:47

You. Often find they can. they can fabricate the can

13:49

move This the can put it the with but humor

13:51

especially when other people join him. It means that people

13:53

have actually agreed. I mean

13:56

you can only last together at something

13:58

that you relates to. Together Yes! So

14:00

and when it through. On.

14:03

It's on top of it, more powerful

14:05

because it is subversives as yesterday when

14:07

it's something you soon be laughing at.

14:09

Yes, Yes, Yes. I so I have

14:11

actually visited like this: This is an

14:14

American recorded American multiple. Choice of

14:16

us. A know

14:19

finity exposes hypocricy. Build.

14:22

Bridges. Tells

14:24

the truth like no other, Speak

14:27

the unmentionable. Fences

14:30

Unity. Son. And

14:32

just thought: hood and

14:34

skewers prejudices, Creates.

14:36

Unity and solidarity. What does

14:38

your comedy do? I.

14:41

Think my comedy does

14:44

as many of those

14:46

things as possible. But.

14:53

When. Asked performing comedy. You.

14:56

Know before us on the Daily Show before people

14:58

really knew me. One. Of

15:00

my favorite moments. When. Stepping on

15:02

stage was the fact that

15:04

the audience have no concepts.

15:07

Oh. Perspective.

15:09

Of why was I was a stranger stepping

15:12

up in front of an audience? About.

15:15

To engage in a really intimate experience with

15:17

them and a comedy club is oftentimes one

15:19

hundred hundred and fifty people. And that's it's.

15:23

And. I remember one day because I would you know

15:25

I would always have. This was some this awkward feeling

15:27

at the beginning of a comedy show. In many ways

15:29

you know you will talk about the with therapy or

15:32

we should. We begins to the back of a where

15:34

do we begin and and I remember one this as

15:36

it's of the audience. And. And it

15:38

stuck with me for a shows I said comedy.

15:41

Is a lot like six. Know

15:43

the seduction exercise. It really is because

15:45

as as the performer, I'm playing the

15:47

role of one person where my role

15:50

is. My job in this moment is

15:52

to satisfy us, the audience. And

15:54

then. You know, the audience essentially

15:56

telling me how. Well, I'm doing or

15:59

not by how much. When they make. And

16:03

this become the zebra. Thought it really is.

16:05

and it's It becomes a real back and

16:07

forth into relationships and there are times when

16:09

the audience might get uncomfortable. and my job

16:11

I think as a good comedian is to

16:13

try and provide the context for them to

16:15

understand why they should be comfortable with me,

16:18

but also understand why they aren't comfortable and

16:20

be able to move and and and play

16:22

in that dance. And that's why. Think I

16:24

think it's exactly like six in that. Sometimes.

16:27

You think the audience has come to the

16:29

show going, We want you to do what

16:31

you do and then midway through go Bomb

16:34

Adam If I'm comfortable with that says my

16:36

my into my mind I'm not uncomfortable with

16:38

that. Let's let's go back to missionary jokes

16:40

and that's fine. That's. Fine. And

16:43

and and it's interesting because then sometimes an

16:45

audience becomes more comfortable. Him and you do

16:47

engage. and it's it's a constant. Went on.

16:49

Who sex in this scenario jokes to you

16:51

Ever lose interest? I.

16:56

Don't. I

16:59

don't because because what I what

17:01

I've learned over time is. All.

17:04

Comedy. The. Entire

17:07

relationship. Just like six. Is.

17:10

All about contexts. And

17:12

context. Is. About communicating

17:14

with somebody else we you are in

17:17

relation to them and then hopefully them

17:19

understanding with they are in relation to

17:21

you. You know it

17:23

does. The very interesting distinction in

17:25

latin in friends to about sensex

17:27

as he is He. Too.

17:29

Easy to loans, Mccain does.

17:32

He does. He. Is. To the roads.

17:35

Has. A to Humiliate makes it

17:37

ces. Two. Letters that make the

17:39

whole distance. Changes. It's. It. Seems

17:41

is it because it says that

17:43

you can't love with somebody who

17:45

is ceiling vulnerable. About the thing

17:47

is trying to poke sun which

17:49

is really different from your uncle's

17:51

story just so. Nice.

17:54

I sneeze. Do you find that it's

17:56

harder these days to make fun of

17:58

certain things? The are we

18:00

more vulnerable to do or every more.

18:03

Though it. Is so

18:05

I honestly I don't think we'll. I

18:08

might be, I might be. The.

18:11

Outlier in this feeling, but I don't

18:13

think the people have become more sensitive.

18:15

I don't think that people have become

18:18

more easily offended. I don't I honestly

18:20

don't think that's what I do think.

18:23

Is that's. The.

18:25

Way we share content or the

18:27

way we connect with people. Has

18:30

lost. The context that

18:32

is necessary for people to feel comfortable.

18:35

When. Telling or not telling a joke. You.

18:37

Know to use use the same analogy of six.

18:41

When. You have sex with somebody. It is

18:43

an intimate moment when you get to know

18:45

them, you both become one more comfortable with

18:48

each other, and as the layers of closer

18:50

being removed you're both consenting to each moment

18:52

that then leads to another and then you

18:54

wind gulf in each other and then you

18:56

go where you wish to go to together.

18:58

But now. What with the internet

19:00

and social media has done is. It.

19:03

Has teleported us to sex with people that we

19:05

weren't even having sex with. You

19:08

know, sort of course you'd be offended. You

19:10

know if is. Some. Random

19:12

person was teleported into your bedroom and then

19:14

said, let's have sex I think you'd be

19:16

offended. Because there's no

19:18

backstory, there's no journey. Who are they? How are

19:21

they? Do You know this story, Everything we do

19:23

and is a terrible, disgusting thing if you don't

19:25

have the context for the other person. I could.

19:28

Write as as I call it.

19:30

The Plots: Yes, thank you yes,

19:32

Effects of the plots And so.

19:35

And so I think comedy itself is that

19:37

You you you you have social media which

19:39

has been amazing for many things. But.

19:42

Now. I. Can have a

19:44

conversation with Esta online. We. Can

19:46

be last thing. We. Can be tweeting

19:48

at each other. We can be sending sick, toxic, what does

19:50

it might be? With somebody who

19:52

has no context for the plot or

19:55

the conversation can step in. And.

19:57

Find a sense in that because they were

19:59

not. The conversation Or the plots. You

20:02

know and I think there's a reason the no

20:04

no comedy clubs have windows that are open to

20:06

the to the to the sidewalk because with you

20:08

walking by you would you would you be offended

20:10

at every comedy club if you walked in. There

20:13

are people in comedy clubs were in wheelchairs,

20:15

people who have loved ones that to see

20:17

people who are dying, people who was that

20:19

you know you name is your name of

20:21

people in comedy clubs are just living life.

20:23

The humans and comedians are are exploring this

20:25

with them and in the comedy club in

20:27

the confines you'll find magic and connection like

20:29

you've never experienced before. but if you opened

20:31

the windows people would walk places. To produce

20:33

it, it's pretty to do this. We

20:41

have to take a Bruce Read. Stay

20:43

with us. Support

20:50

for Wizard we begin comes from a

20:52

blessing. In an age of distributed work

20:54

with teams and I be spread across

20:56

time zones, it's time to stop measuring

20:58

for the festivities, withstand it's and the

21:00

the seen and what Are you? a

21:02

team of to two hundred or two

21:05

million or whether you team is around

21:07

the corner or another continent all. Together

21:09

with. Insist: where is this to

21:11

help keep. You old and the same

21:14

page and start to finish. With.

21:16

At listen to him since he

21:18

a team has not seen as

21:20

so systems to document and sir

21:22

non it at Lesson Gina have

21:24

six a functional teams plan sat

21:27

and release new work and lesson

21:29

learned how to replace meetings and

21:31

provide context with a synchronicity Deal

21:33

of this had lessons helps power

21:36

global collaboration for all teams so

21:38

they can accomplish everything that's impossible

21:40

alone because individually the great the

21:42

together with so much better learn

21:45

how to. A nice the potential

21:47

of youth team at at lesean.com

21:49

that's a T L a s

21:51

as I A and that com

21:53

at less. So.

21:59

In Masses. When the doors

22:01

are closed, I often help people

22:03

cry. You. Help People! Last

22:05

I have people cry. I love with

22:08

them as they're crying but I also.

22:10

Get off with them or at them. Busy day. Who

22:17

is. That

22:19

I don't get to decide what

22:21

they crying about wherever you do

22:24

that to decide what you want

22:26

them to laugh at or with.

22:28

Yes, but you don't decide what they will

22:31

laugh about or with And that's where comedy

22:33

is magical. Sometimes you can

22:35

say something that you think is funny.

22:38

No response. You.

22:41

May say something afterwards or before

22:43

it. That's. You was nothing and

22:45

the audience goes. That is what we

22:47

find funny. Correct. You

22:49

know? So again, going back to sex forgive

22:52

me. Insects

22:54

It's like there was what you think is going to

22:56

pleasure the person and there is what pleasures the person

22:58

and so you might think this is what I'm doing.

23:00

this is going to be great and then all of

23:03

a sudden legal fc nominal. I like that's and I

23:05

think if you in concert with them and you wish

23:07

for that. To. Be the a pleasure

23:09

as a comedian. I'm not saying this because I

23:11

want you to laugh at this. I wish to

23:13

come. I wish I was to bring on a

23:15

journey with me. So it is an

23:17

exercise in seduction. This isn't over completely

23:19

and sonos. So when I asked you

23:21

what is something that you would like

23:23

to learn from me and it's you

23:25

vs it says yes I do like

23:27

to learn from each other. I am

23:30

about to go on tour and I

23:32

have some to learn from. the pros

23:34

and you said that you wanted to

23:36

learn from me how to be a

23:38

better lists. Yes, I.

23:42

Think. There.

23:45

Are few tools to parts one. There

23:47

are few tools that are more important

23:49

in our society than learning how. To.

23:51

Listen, Metropolis not living up to

23:54

here. I. Think we'll hear. But.

23:56

We don't know how to listen. And

23:59

the reason. The to learned from you

24:01

and to understand. If. You

24:03

can give us a few

24:05

tips on how to listen

24:07

is because I think a

24:09

fantastic therapist, especially in couples

24:11

therapy has. To listen.

24:15

The. Partner says. She.

24:17

Always does this the other partner says

24:19

of that's because he always wants best.

24:23

And. An amazing therapist goes. What?

24:25

I'm hearing her say is.

24:28

And. What he might be expressing

24:31

his. But. Neither party has

24:33

said that's you've listened to something that

24:35

was never said. You've. Listened

24:37

to something that may not have come out

24:39

of their mouths. It might have been a

24:41

body just months I I'm constantly fascinated by

24:43

that for Life for comedy for everything Because

24:46

I say i think it's It is A

24:48

It is It's A It's A It's Want

24:50

the priceless tools that we oftentimes forget about

24:52

in society is listening much as hearing. So.

24:55

I thought of two things he

24:57

says subversive, other is worse as

25:00

we begin with some me I

25:02

always imagined is you listen. Carefully.

25:05

To the stories of others. The more

25:07

you listen to them and the more

25:09

you will see cells. Oh,

25:11

and I hope that when people listen

25:13

to wish we the didn't they also

25:15

listen to how I listen. The

25:18

To One thing that you can't know

25:21

from listening on a podcast ones doing

25:23

when you zones. The one that you

25:25

can't know is that you don't listen

25:27

with. Your ears. You

25:30

listen. With. Your voice. He.

25:33

Listen with your eyes unison with

25:35

you smile. You listen with the

25:37

hands to listen as you walk

25:39

closer to the person hands in.

25:41

therapy. In person and not

25:44

just on line series. The

25:46

whole body listens and the

25:48

more and you listened like

25:50

that. The quality of you

25:52

listening is what will say.

25:55

What? The speaker will tell how

25:57

much, how open, how deep.

26:00

Meaning listening is not as

26:02

the pisses me see the

26:05

zebra listening shapes the speaker.

26:08

Who so. That's one thing

26:10

I thought for you in in listening

26:13

and you do that because you are

26:15

constantly will as soon too hot people

26:17

are listening to you and same seeing

26:19

what you're doing in the Mormons. In

26:22

response to how they listen. And

26:25

then listening room listening is

26:28

curiosity. It's a few listens

26:30

with expectations in advance of what

26:32

you should hear. You're not listening

26:34

is you're listening with a confirmation

26:36

bias. To get evidence for that

26:38

which you've already made up your

26:40

mind. The bed you're not really

26:42

listening. Listening is a certain kind

26:44

of engagement with the unknown. It's

26:46

curiosity. It's been completely available to

26:49

what the other person is telling

26:51

you, and I think that that

26:53

also happens in your shows. That.

26:56

Happens in my So's. But I realize.

26:59

Why? An

27:01

ex of mine hated that I would look at

27:04

my phone when she was speaking. At

27:06

know and I just have a realization how much.

27:08

Ha! I. Never thought about that. Genuinely honest

27:10

because in my hello go there is no object.

27:15

In my head. Are put your

27:18

was of empathy of a therapist's esa. Like

27:21

wow and how does that make you

27:23

feel? What are you serious are not

27:25

because it's because it might have realised.

27:27

Now know of any why. I'll tell

27:29

you why. I'll tell you why because

27:31

you see funny, not because of the

27:33

way you articulate with outside you. What.

27:36

I would always be hearing.

27:39

What she would say. Ah, What?

27:41

Would you just said was so. So

27:44

details the idea. Of

27:47

same thing the speaker or

27:49

the communication. By.

27:51

Your full listening is something that I

27:53

don't think I've fully. I wouldn't have

27:55

that onstage. I'm I'm a fully understand.

27:58

But. When speaking to people, sometimes I think that. That

28:00

for granted because I think of

28:02

it as information. Sometimes I go

28:04

like aha us Information Download Download

28:06

Download Download Okay thank you Done!

28:09

so this awesome. What

28:13

we call today ambiguous loss.

28:15

Ambiguous. last. Yes it's to

28:17

sensation that you are with somebody

28:19

who is there but not presence

28:22

and biggest loss is offensive that

28:24

we borrow from for limbers who

28:26

talks about Greece when the person's

28:28

is sitting as timer and the

28:30

Us is sickly presence but psychologically

28:32

are emotionally down which is what

28:34

happens when you doing this while

28:37

or on the other side when

28:39

they are deployed or when they

28:41

disappeared or window hostage or when

28:43

they're at war and you know

28:45

that they are physically. Dogs but

28:47

psychologically and emotionally very presence

28:49

and so you can't resolve

28:51

the dilemma right? ambiguous. Love

28:53

it Today Many people in

28:55

their interactions experience and big

28:57

useless. I'm talking about something

29:00

super importance and yeah just

29:02

like taking away and it

29:04

makes me feel like. Anything.

29:06

I'm sending you has no value,

29:08

no importance. Yeah no I I

29:10

I mean I can understand it's you

29:13

don't in comedy clubs. We would always

29:15

say that the the moment every comedian

29:17

the hates his when oh. They're.

29:19

Collecting the check. So.

29:21

You never want to be onstage during that

29:23

moments with the weights as walk through the

29:25

room and they'll start giving people they checked

29:27

and then you're trying to tell jokes and

29:29

people are trying to calculate the tip on

29:31

the bill. Is the worst

29:34

moments been a comedy club? You

29:36

can literally feel the audience disappear

29:38

from you. And essentially they're going

29:40

ah ah ah ah ah ah

29:42

yea nom listening. I'm listening. What's

29:44

twenty percent of as ah for

29:46

us? We

29:53

have to take a brief break

29:55

stay with us. Support

30:06

for where should we begin comes from

30:08

at last year in an age has

30:11

distributed work with teams night be spread

30:13

across times and each time to stop

30:15

measuring productivity to withstand. It's from the

30:17

industrial era where are are a team

30:19

of to two hundred or two million

30:21

or whether you team is around the

30:23

corner or on another continent all together

30:26

At last Incest Where is built to

30:28

help keep your old on the same

30:30

page. From start to finish. We

30:32

that lesson confidence your team has

30:35

one single source of truth to

30:37

document and share knowledge At Lesson

30:39

Zero helps cross functional teams plan,

30:42

track and release new work and

30:44

that Lesson Lord helps me please

30:47

meetings and provide context with asynchronous

30:49

video of this at Lesson help

30:51

our global collaboration for all teams

30:54

so they can accomplish everything that's

30:56

impossible and then because individually were

30:58

great. The together with so much

31:01

Better learn how. To a nice

31:03

the potential of youth team at

31:05

a lesson.com that's a T L

31:08

A s as I am.com at

31:10

last year. So.

31:16

This just reminded me. So

31:18

I'm going on sore right? N N N O

31:20

know why? By the way, By I'm going. On

31:23

So yeah, for the very reason that you

31:25

talked about. Why in first and such

31:27

as bottle. Ah,

31:33

Said I think more more more specifically

31:36

for me is I'm going like you

31:38

already do therapy with people. One on

31:40

what I'm saying why the keeps us.

31:45

From: i'm from a guy thought. Of it

31:47

as a first date with

31:49

three thousand people have not

31:51

have not said there because

31:53

I do things that breeding

31:55

together, sitting together, talking about

31:57

love, sex, design, breakups in

31:59

a collective actually is the

32:02

most important way to take

32:04

us out of the loneliness

32:06

that we often see in

32:08

those experiences as think that

32:10

we've become plates. Socially.

32:12

Atrophied this after this time and I

32:14

think that we living more and more

32:16

the contactless world when this addresses I'm

32:18

in. This is what's happened here People

32:21

that I'd wouldn't let you know like

32:23

you. We talk for two years by

32:25

looking at a green.on the screen yes

32:27

we never heard of person last. We

32:30

had no idea how they responded

32:32

to us, we spoke, and we

32:34

had no notion of who was

32:36

listening and how we feel everything

32:38

here. And. That experience

32:40

is not just submit for me the

32:43

expensive, the expense of the people in

32:45

the rooms. You are aware of the

32:47

other people's responses to what's happening. You

32:49

identify with others who are serving the

32:51

same experience even if they don't say

32:53

a word to see, see the to

32:55

the whole thing and for that I

32:58

am going back in the world a

33:00

want to have that experience and I

33:02

want people to have that experience with

33:04

each other. Do. Have a get nervous when you

33:06

when you're. Doing. Those shows. So

33:08

this is exactly it's he know your day

33:10

and lost in the in and you talk

33:13

about the the, the, the build in the

33:15

slum families of i actually need lights when

33:17

I talk. I need to see the

33:19

people is I have had that fit in front

33:21

of me. That's really hot. I

33:23

have a lot of fear. I stage fright.

33:26

I need to see I need to see

33:28

the eyes of the people who are looking

33:30

at me because otherwise that's where my talking

33:32

to. And. I

33:34

have serious about. You know. Yet, But you

33:37

know what's interesting about about comedy is where

33:39

where comedy some comedians have that has works.

33:41

But oftentimes I find. Audiences. Are

33:43

less likely to laugh if he didn't Well,

33:45

it's because there's a civil busy I'm

33:47

There's a freedom in knowing that other

33:49

people can't see you laugh and then you

33:51

forget that other people and I think

33:53

it's It's important sometimes to not feel

33:55

like we're watched in order to give almost

33:58

honest response. Oh, that's interesting from. Your

34:00

side you need another them ignore. Nice

34:02

on enough. now I I don't amounts certain

34:04

things and that some enough for other. Oh

34:07

wow. Like when

34:09

you to them on in. it's. Just

34:11

like off the someone said something,

34:13

very awkward. Assess assess so you

34:15

spend my time. You.

34:22

Think to the sure. What

34:25

to do, sisters? What is that? What

34:27

you do succeed says what you do

34:29

when your. Job. With it me okay for

34:31

using stage fright voicing nerves because I think the

34:33

to a different oats and me. So.

34:36

It. In In the way I

34:38

interpreted, stage fright means an inability to

34:40

perform. Because you are, You might forget

34:42

what you want to say. You might

34:44

if you're a deer in the headlights.

34:46

Best stage fright to me. nerves is

34:49

difference. Nerves. Is having a

34:51

fear? It's the Ceo of the

34:53

uncertain. It's the. it's the moments.

34:55

A you know, a base jumper.

34:57

Breathes, And and and you see them.

35:00

You. Know closing their eyes and pumping the chest

35:02

just before they jump off a high bridge.

35:04

It's the moment before that you know a

35:06

soccer player walks out of the tunnel onto

35:08

a field and you see them look up

35:10

and they say little prince That's nerves. I

35:13

think the to a very difference. That's. Why I'm

35:15

asking which one you actually have is of nerves are

35:17

the stage fright. I have both. Wow,

35:20

I can't imagine having states rights. And his

35:22

states faith. And I

35:24

see like days ago you're so close

35:27

this is and then as moment setting

35:29

a a siblings like i can't remember

35:31

things and that minutes I talked to

35:33

someone like we came on. yeah I

35:36

had said said before but the moment

35:38

even here yes what the moon is

35:40

I'm in conversation. I get grounded by

35:43

the presence of the other. It's when

35:45

I'm talking. You know yes this

35:47

is applied that is more and is that

35:49

as soon as you things that would like

35:51

to see before that and it's done. Some.

35:55

And knows I'm sign because

35:57

nurse turn into Uma. Yes,

36:00

Yes. Like for you probably. So,

36:02

and once people have laughed with me

36:04

and I feel like they're with me,

36:06

you know. It's true. The first laugh is

36:08

always the most important, I find. Yes.

36:10

But with stage fright, I... I

36:13

feel like I'm outside of myself. Like

36:15

I'm looking at myself from the outside

36:17

in sometimes and thinking, I'm

36:19

going to see blank. But

36:22

I know people don't see it, but I feel...

36:25

No, I understand that. I understand that. What

36:27

I'm trying to understand is... So

36:31

whenever I'm thinking of nerves or stage fright,

36:33

I try to understand what the

36:36

underlying feeling actually is. I can't

36:38

think in those moments. Yes. Yes,

36:41

but I'm saying, I try to get to...

36:43

You're just rationalizing. Yes, but I'm trying to get to why

36:45

can't you think? By the way, it is very rational. Sometimes

36:49

it's overstimulation. You know, there's

36:51

too many faces, too many eyes, too many things

36:53

that could be you, you're a perfectionist, which I

36:55

know you are by the way. It could be

36:57

you in that moment thinking about all the things

36:59

that you've prepared up until that point. I

37:01

often find people who have stage fright

37:03

are often the people who also over-prepare. I

37:05

am an over-prepare. Yeah. Yeah,

37:08

because when you over-prepare, you have

37:10

so many things that you've inundated

37:12

your brain with that when

37:14

the moment comes, you go, wait, do I remember

37:16

all of it? It's almost too much pressure in

37:19

a strange way. And it's why I

37:21

remember when I was in school, there's a teacher

37:23

who taught us, said, hey, the

37:25

last thing you should do is study the day of the

37:27

exam. The last thing you should do is talk about the

37:30

exam before the exam. Everything

37:32

up until that point. She used to say to her, she'd go, if you

37:34

don't know it by the day, you don't know it, trust me. She'd

37:36

be like, just move on with your life. And

37:40

I think that stuck with me. It's, you

37:42

know, so for stage fright itself, I

37:44

find that there's, and

37:47

maybe that's where small talk comes in,

37:49

which is another thing I don't think you're great at, a

37:51

small talk. Neither are you. Neither

37:53

am I? No. I'm better

37:55

than you at small talk. I'll

37:57

say this. I can, I can, I can. create

38:00

the veneer of enjoying small talk. You

38:02

do not have small talk at all. That

38:05

is true, but you pretend it's small talk

38:07

but it's anything else. No,

38:09

but I'm engaging in small talk but I'm

38:12

getting something deeper from it. There's a

38:15

difference. You are not even into small talk

38:17

land at all, at all, at all. Right,

38:19

you've listened to Where Should We? When was

38:21

the last time you said to somebody, this

38:24

weather? So

38:28

I will tell you where I do my

38:30

best small talk. I've made some of my

38:32

best friends on airplanes. I

38:35

met so many people on

38:37

the plane exchanging newspapers. I was

38:39

reading Le Monde, they were reading

38:41

the Parisian, we knew exactly our

38:43

political affiliations. And I

38:46

think when you sit up suspended in the

38:48

air, like in the

38:50

movie, you start these incredible conversations

38:52

and they can start with small

38:54

talk like, do you travel this

38:56

airline frequently? Or where are you

39:00

flying to? Or is it work or pleasure?

39:02

Or any of this? And then it's amazing

39:05

what people tell me when I wrote the

39:07

state of affairs. It's

39:09

about infidelity. Yes. Do you

39:11

know what people told me on airplanes? It's

39:14

just unbelievable. It's a living

39:16

confessional. I think there's

39:21

just like there is no small talk because people

39:23

come to me and start telling me very

39:27

important, these secretive,

39:29

deep things very quickly. No, but

39:31

I think it's... And I respect it. No,

39:33

but I think, okay, I think it's two things. So

39:36

one, I'll actually get to that part second. But the

39:38

first part is the thing about

39:40

airplanes. Number one, I think

39:42

there is something that we have learned. And that is

39:44

if you have

39:46

a little less oxygen, you're a little more

39:48

free. No,

39:50

I'm serious. And that's why people breathe into paper

39:52

bags before they go on stage or they... No, really

39:55

it is that sometimes it's just like letting your body's

39:57

stress response go down a little. Do

40:00

you do any breathing before you walk on

40:02

stage? Yeah. Yeah. So that, that,

40:04

if you, if you get the right breathing, that might help. But

40:06

the other thing about planes might be to your small talk is

40:09

you have inherently agreed

40:12

with somebody that you are going through or doing the

40:14

same thing. The fact that you are in a plane

40:16

with somebody means that you have both made the same

40:18

decision to head to the same place in life, even

40:20

if it is just for that moment in time. And

40:23

so now you can say to somebody,

40:25

huh, do you often fly this airline?

40:27

Huh? Which is one of the most important

40:29

things that people are afraid of. You don't seem like a crazy

40:31

person, you know? If you walk

40:33

down the street and you say to somebody, do you walk

40:36

down the street often? You

40:39

could look like a psychopath, but on

40:41

a plane, because we've made this decision.

40:43

We have a shared reality. Exactly. There it

40:45

is. And so I think,

40:47

I find that that is the key to good

40:49

small talk. The key to good small

40:51

talk is to acknowledge the environment that

40:53

both of you are sharing. That's why whether

40:55

it is the most widely used

40:57

small talk possible, because it is the one

41:00

thing that we all have to experience, whether

41:02

we like it or not. I

41:04

don't care what newspaper you've read. I don't care where

41:06

you're from in the world. I don't care how you

41:08

see the world. It's

41:11

raining. It's

41:14

raining. Wow, this rain. Yeah,

41:16

man, this rain. Oh,

41:19

this rain. And now we're in. And

41:21

now we're in an elevator and we don't

41:23

even do this kind of small talk anymore,

41:25

because that small talk would have been accompanied

41:27

with the second line. So where do you

41:29

get lunch when it rains? And

41:31

then where do you get lunch when it rains could have

41:34

become, oh, let me take you and show you a place

41:36

right around the corner that you don't know. And

41:38

we would have begun a whole relationship with

41:40

this one little line of small talk and

41:43

we don't have it. Why? Why

41:45

do you think that that's gone away? Because exactly what you

41:47

just said. No, I agree. I agree. The

41:51

fact that we have a means to contact

41:54

the people who we already contact all

41:56

the time means we are less

41:59

inclined to contact. new people to share experiences

42:01

and life with them. So

42:03

if you eat an amazing meal... That is extremely well

42:05

said. You know, if you enjoy

42:08

an amazing meal, the thing

42:10

you can do now is tell someone you know

42:12

immediately about it. You can text your friends and

42:14

go, oh my god guys, I just ate

42:16

at this phenomenal restaurant. And a picture of the whole thing.

42:18

There you go. Whereas before, there

42:20

was a time when you literally just had

42:22

to talk to somebody on the train, the

42:24

bus, wherever you are and just turn and

42:26

say, yeah, have you eaten at this place?

42:30

That was amazing. Because you

42:32

have... There's a wonderful feeling

42:34

in your body when you have to share something.

42:37

That's the second place where I've met people. Is

42:40

a restaurant? Yes, yes. You start

42:42

talking with the people next to you at the table. Next thing

42:44

you're in a bar to get the next thing you walk in. Oh yeah,

42:46

you see? So there. So I

42:48

have a question for you because you know me a little bit.

42:51

What advice do you have for me as

42:54

I go out on this tour? You're touring all

42:56

the time. Of the

42:58

record, you're going out in the world right now.

43:00

That's the name of your tour. Mine

43:03

is just called an evening with a stairporel. Which

43:06

I think is beautiful. I like that a lot. But

43:09

what do you do? I mean, one thing I

43:11

thought of with you, what does he do when

43:13

he bombs? Like I say a sentence, people laugh.

43:16

The next day I come, I say the same

43:18

sentence, nobody reacts. And I don't

43:20

know how one recovers from these things so fast. But

43:22

that's just one piece. Like what should

43:24

one know? I've never done ten

43:26

in a row like this. So

43:29

okay, knowing you, this is what I

43:31

would say. So

43:35

it's interesting, every time I go out and do shows or

43:37

anything that I do in the world, I try and

43:39

think about what I'm going to give and then

43:41

I try and think about what I would hope to get. And

43:45

the get always changes. The give varies but

43:47

not that much. But the get always changes.

43:50

For me on this tour, I think you

43:52

have a wonderful opportunity to delve into the

43:54

stage fright, understand it, tame it

43:56

or even use it to your advantage. I think

43:58

that's a wonderful thing. to learn to do.

44:02

I'll bring a little Trevor Noah. You

44:04

should, you should. But you

44:06

see that that's the amazing thing. The

44:09

second thing I think to remember is it's

44:12

all about expectation. So you

44:14

know when you say something as a

44:17

comedian and it doesn't land, the crowd

44:19

doesn't laugh. The

44:21

only reason you can feel bad about it

44:24

is because you expected them to laugh.

44:27

And if you do not expect them to

44:29

laugh, all of a sudden everything changes. It

44:32

completely changes. Going back to what

44:34

you said, if you are curious, you

44:37

don't have a preconceived notion. Instead

44:40

of going out and saying to an audience,

44:42

this is funny, you're saying to an audience,

44:44

do you think this is funny? All of

44:46

a sudden it changes because when they go no, you

44:49

don't take it as a personal affront anymore. Now you're

44:51

like, huh, why don't you think this is funny?

44:54

And now you go down that rabbit hole. Would it be funny if

44:56

I said it this way? Would it be funny if I said it that

44:58

way? Huh, this is really interesting

45:01

to me. And all of a sudden you find

45:03

yourself winding down a road that you never would have otherwise because

45:07

you had assumed something that was supposed to happen and

45:09

then didn't and now you're in your head going, why

45:11

didn't they laugh? Oh,

45:13

what am I doing? What's going on here? Oh,

45:15

this is terrible. I don't know what's going to...

45:17

And then it's over for you. So I think

45:19

that's something that you can let go of. Also,

45:22

when people are coming to Esther Pirell, I

45:24

think the primary reason they're

45:26

coming is because they want to grow, they want

45:28

to learn, they want to explore

45:31

conversations that they maybe aren't able to

45:33

have by themselves. They want

45:35

to be in community in these intimate spaces.

45:38

So the one thing for you that you should

45:40

also take with you is no one's expecting you

45:42

to be funny. So that's a bonus.

45:45

You get what I'm saying? Like,

45:47

if you are of the profession and you do

45:50

not deliver it, people are disappointed. So

45:53

if I'm a stripper and I do not turn

45:55

you on, I have failed. But

45:58

if I'm a bus driver... And

46:00

I start taking my clothes off and

46:02

you get turned on. That's a bonus. Mr.

46:08

Trevor, I'm going to thank you because

46:10

I want us to actually bring this

46:12

community that is here with us.

46:16

So first of all, your tour is called. Off

46:20

the record. And the reason I called it

46:22

funny enough that is because, you know, it's

46:24

funny, you and I often are in the

46:26

similar zeitgeist or we experiencing a similar zeitgeist

46:29

in time. I call it that because I

46:31

wish for more of those moments. I

46:34

wish for more moments where we are

46:36

off the record. I wish

46:38

for more moments where we exist from

46:40

here to here, nowhere else. Just

46:43

in that moment, I think that's how we

46:45

build communication. That's how we build understanding. That's

46:47

how we build context. But now, even in

46:49

politics, we live in a world where one

46:52

politician will not even

46:54

engage with another politician because they're afraid

46:56

that the outside world sees them and

46:59

then questions their validity within their political

47:01

sphere. And then that means no

47:03

talks can ever happen. And I think we need

47:05

to do more things off the record. You

47:07

know, love can be off the record. Your relationship can

47:10

be off the record. A conversation, a room like this.

47:12

Let's do it off the record sometimes. You know, where

47:14

it's like there's no phones and you have to just

47:16

remember everything. And then you have to go and recount

47:18

it to somebody else and you have to go and

47:20

try and share it with them. I want to I

47:22

genuinely want to get back to that. I want to

47:25

be in a place and a space in time where

47:27

I say this happened there. You

47:29

had to be there. And if you

47:31

weren't, you won't fully understand it. And that's fine. Privacy,

47:36

intimacy. That

47:38

is also other words for

47:40

what happens off the record. But your podcast is

47:42

called Now What? What Now? What Now?

47:44

Yes. Because

47:47

it goes well, it took us a long time to decide

47:49

that it is because they are very different. Yes. Tell

47:51

me. So what now is because

47:54

I wanted to have conversations about the

47:56

conversations that invade our lives. And I

47:58

love that thing of. I would

48:00

always say that to friends. You know, we'd be having a conversation,

48:02

someone go, did you see what's happening

48:04

with TikTok? And then I would say, oh, what now? You

48:07

know, and it's just like everything in life. I always feel that

48:09

there's a what now. And I

48:11

think the double entendre of it is, what

48:13

now? Where do we go from here?

48:16

Okay, this has happened. There

48:18

are many things in the world that are going to happen. But

48:21

what now? I don't think we

48:23

spend enough time in society asking the what

48:25

now. We've gotten really good at reacting, but

48:28

we haven't gotten good at saying, okay, it

48:30

has happened. What now?

48:33

As in a session that starts

48:36

with where should we begin. Exactly. So

48:40

listen to his podcast, go to his

48:42

tour, and let's- Listen

48:45

to her podcast, go to her tour. Oh,

48:47

oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,

48:49

oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, If

48:56

you wanna hear more from Trevor

48:59

and myself, we asked the audience

49:01

to share some questions with us

49:03

as a second part of our

49:05

conversation. And if you're curious, just

49:08

join us on my episode on

49:11

Apple subscription later this week. This is

49:13

my favorite part of watching your shows, by the way. I

49:15

watch the videos and then I'll always, I love this part, really.

49:22

Where should we begin with Esther Perel is

49:24

produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part

49:26

of the Vox Media Podcast Network in

49:29

partnership with New York Magazine and the Con. Our

49:32

production staff includes Eric Newsom,

49:34

Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin

49:36

Muller, and Julian Hahn. Original

49:39

music and additional production, Paul Paul

49:41

Schneider, and the executive producers

49:43

of Where Should We Begin. We'd

49:46

also like to thank Courtney

49:49

Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and

49:51

Jack Wolf. Support

50:02

for this show comes from Atlassian.

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