0:05

hello, and a very warm welcome back to

0:07

Widowed AF. You're here with your host. That's

0:09

me, Rosie Gilmoss, and joining me

0:11

today from Texas at seven

0:13

o'clock in the morning, so thank you for that, is

0:15

Audrey. Hello, Audrey. How are you?

0:18

Hi Rosie, I'm good. It's a little early

0:20

really nice to see you. Yeah, it's really,

0:22

really nice to meet you. And I,

0:24

uh, I have had a few American guests

0:27

come on and I really love that. Cause

0:29

I love the fact that we're reaching you guys over there.

0:31

And also I think everybody

0:33

we talk to, I mean, every story is different,

0:35

but it's interesting to hear how you guys

0:37

deal with grief and the aftermath.

0:40

And it also expands this wonderful

0:42

network that we've got. So I'm, I'm incredibly

0:44

grateful to you for coming on now.

0:47

Prior to, um, clicking record,

0:49

Audrey and I had a brief chat because, um,

0:52

her story, your story, Audrey, is

0:54

very, very similar to mine. So

0:58

I haven't put a lot of mascara on today because

1:00

I think this might get us both in the feels.

1:02

Um, and Audrey's husband,

1:05

it was your husband, was it Bill? Um, he

1:07

went white, white, white, white

1:09

water kayaking. I can't say that. So white water

1:12

kayaking. Now men and

1:14

their stupid hobbies, right?

1:16

Yeah, totally.

1:18

hmm. Yeah.

1:19

I'm done with the stupid hobbies, that's for sure.

1:21

And with the stupid hobbies, says me. I

1:23

mean, I do some fairly risky stuff. I have done some

1:25

fairly risky stuff myself. But, um, we're

1:29

going to talk about your relationship with

1:31

Bill, if that's okay. I'd like you to tell me a little

1:33

bit about who he was and who you guys were before

1:36

this happened. Um, and then we are

1:38

going to go into this, to your story.

1:40

And there are some horrible, horrible similarities

1:43

and some really horrible things for you. Like,

1:45

um, You didn't, he was missing for 30 days

1:47

and that just sends a chill down my

1:49

spine. You must've been so terrified,

1:52

but I'm not going to tell you a story for you. Um,

1:55

I'm going to let you do that in your own words. So

1:57

would you, when you're ready, um, just kind

1:59

of introduce yourself and, and, and, and

2:02

tell me your story.

2:04

Yeah, I, um, I am calling

2:06

from Texas, but I just arrived here yesterday

2:09

to visit my sister. I normally

2:11

live in Washington State, outside of

2:13

Seattle. Um, most

2:15

people just don't know me. Uh, say we live in Seattle,

2:18

but I actually live about two hours outside of Seattle

2:20

in the middle of the mountains.

2:22

Oh, wow.

2:23

before Bill died, I lived close to the city

2:25

and kind of had, I don't know, there's

2:28

probably a few widows that have done that freak out moment

2:30

where you just leave

2:32

where you

2:32

Mm hmm.

2:33

Although I do live in a house

2:36

that we purchased together. So it's

2:38

a little bit of both. I've never fully lived there

2:40

with him, but we did own the house together. So

2:42

yeah,

2:44

a holiday in let or a

2:46

home?

2:47

Yeah, yeah, in the states we call it a

2:49

cabin. So it's a cabin in the woods. Yeah.

2:52

Another cabins?

2:54

What's that?

2:56

Is it an actual, cause when I think of a cabin, I think

2:58

of like a wood cabin

2:59

Yes.

3:00

what it looks like? I like to be able to pitch these

3:02

things. See, I'm quite, I've got

3:04

a real yearning to go to Texas.

3:06

Um, it's, I'm a big country music

3:08

fan and I'd like to go to, um,

3:11

to the southern states, but you know, one day, one

3:13

day, but anyway, I digress. So you,

3:17

is just where my sister lives. I live in Washington,

3:19

which it took me 46

3:22

hours of driving to get here. So it's quite

3:24

a, quite a

3:25

hours of driving. Surely

3:27

you have airplanes.

3:29

We do, but you know, I just got laid off from

3:31

my job. And so I'm kind of having

3:33

one of those eat, pray, love, like. Let's

3:36

bust out of town

3:37

Not that, not about losing the job, but about

3:39

doing the sort of the eight by eight love, the, the,

3:42

the adventure. That's, that's a good thing, I

3:44

think. All right. So tell me

3:46

about Bill. Tell me how you met and, and,

3:48

and tell me a little bit about your life with him.

3:51

yeah, Bill and I met in our 20s

3:53

or at 20 in

3:56

college class he was really

3:59

opinionated and very

4:01

loud and vocal and that's

4:03

how he lived life and

4:05

It drove me nuts it absolutely

4:08

he But that was his form of

4:10

flirting and then I grew to love that and so

4:12

we, um, started dating at 20

4:15

and we

4:17

got married at 25. So,

4:20

um, and Bill died when I was 41. So we

4:22

were together for more

4:24

than half of our lives together. So,

4:27

um, Yeah,

4:30

that's how we met. We were

4:32

both really hard working, uh,

4:34

dedicated to trying to

4:37

create a life that we could retire

4:39

early. So our plan was to retire at

4:41

50, move to the woods, have

4:44

a farm of rescue dogs, and

4:47

just live life. Um, fun him, uh,

4:50

rafting all the time or mountain

4:52

biking or any kind of extreme sport.

4:54

He was very adventurous and loud

4:57

and boisterous, if you can imagine. Yes, absolutely.

4:59

He had a motto that, uh,

5:02

nothing bad ever happened to him. That

5:04

was, it was kind of a joke that

5:07

was going to end up on his gravestone. Yeah.

5:13

Um, he also joked a lot about,

5:16

uh, someday he, he said he would die

5:18

young. He just was like, Oh, I'm going to burn. I'd rather

5:21

burn out than

5:21

Been bright line past. Yeah.

5:24

Yeah.

5:25

interesting because Ben used to say he would die young.

5:27

His dad died in his 60s and, um,

5:29

Ben used to say, I think I'm going to die in my 60s like my dad.

5:32

And I would be like, God, don't say that. You know, I want you

5:34

around a lot more than that.

5:35

Yeah, yeah, he

5:36

I'd have taken 60s now. They

5:41

a trophy husband and you,

5:44

and it just was like, why do

5:46

these jokes are now they're not funny

5:48

that back then I was like, Oh, ha

5:49

have no meaning then, do they?

5:51

yeah, yeah, yep.

5:54

So it was, it was a good 20 years

5:56

of adventure and travel and. And

5:59

having lots of hobbies, we ended up purchasing

6:02

our cabin in the woods in Washington. It's outside

6:05

of a town called Leavenworth, Washington, which is, if

6:07

you ever Google Leavenworth, it's a very touristy

6:10

Christmas town. Um,

6:12

lots of tourists come from

6:14

all over. Tons of snow in the winter.

6:17

Really beautiful, dry, and warm

6:19

in the summertime, but not too warm.

6:21

It's

6:22

selling this to me.

6:24

Yes. Yes. It's amazing.

6:26

How do you spell the town?

6:28

Leavenworth is L E A V

6:30

E N W O R T

6:32

H.

6:34

Thank you. I am going to Google it

6:36

easy.

6:37

Oh, it's stunning. It's a German

6:39

themed town, so everything

6:41

looks like Germany.

6:44

Yeah,

6:45

And this is where you actually live now.

6:47

that's where I live now. Yes. But I'm

6:49

live in like a Christmas film.

6:51

yes, yes, and the joke is, like,

6:54

my, my new story is going to be,

6:56

uh, a Lifetime movie or like, you

6:58

know, the cheesy widow meets

7:00

the shoemaker in the tourist

7:03

town, or I'm

7:05

the person in the tourist town and some fancy

7:07

lawyer comes into town and then falls in love

7:09

with the

7:10

It's, it's writing itself. It's writing

7:12

itself is. So,

7:18

Bill and I, that's where we ended up,

7:21

or where the story ends up

7:23

starting.

7:24

and, and you've said that he was into

7:26

his, um, you know, high octane

7:28

adrenaline fueled sports. Um,

7:30

was that something that you participated in or did

7:33

you leave him to crack on with that on

7:35

his own?

7:36

Yeah, the main sports

7:38

were river rafting in the summertime

7:41

and snowboarding in the wintertime. And he

7:44

had snowboarded a bit when we first

7:46

met, but really got into the sport once

7:48

we were together. And we actually got married

7:50

in a ski town in Canada called

7:53

Whistler.

7:54

Oh, wow.

7:55

yeah, we snowboarded, got

7:57

married, and then went to the Bahamas after we got married.

7:59

So that was our shared adventures.

8:02

And Not too, he

8:05

was crazy snowboarder going

8:07

super fast and I'm very chill just, you

8:09

know, cruising down the mountain and then in

8:11

the summertime Was a lot of river

8:13

rafting and I actually got him into

8:15

that sport because I grew up river rafting

8:17

with my family So my father my

8:20

siblings all River rafts

8:23

and that was our main hobby as a child

8:26

So he got into that sport through my

8:28

family

8:30

Okay. That's interesting because I, I,

8:32

um, I got Ben into scuba diving.

8:35

I took him, I, I, well, I

8:37

suggested we went and learnt on honeymoon. So,

8:40

uh, it wasn't something, it was something both of us wanted to do.

8:42

I would be quite happy to lie for two weeks by Paul

8:44

reading. He wouldn't have been. So that's why

8:46

we kind of got into, into that particular

8:49

sport. Um, Okay.

8:51

So I'm going to just, I think I'm going to,

8:54

I think I've, I've, I've bought you dinner now. So I'm

8:56

going to get you to take, take me to,

8:58

to that day. Um, now

9:01

you've just put June 22, but I imagine

9:03

that the date is burned into your soul

9:05

on the day that he went missing. Um,

9:08

but there's two dates for you, aren't there? There's two

9:10

dates because you will have the date that he went

9:12

missing and the date that his body

9:14

was found. And both of those must carry

9:17

an enormous significance. And I.

9:21

I am obviously comparing this to my story

9:23

and I'm thinking, in

9:26

fact, no, do you know what, I'm going to stop here because I'm going to give,

9:28

I'm going to let you tell this bit of your story yourself and then

9:30

I'm going to talk to you about it actually because I

9:32

think it's important that I give you the opportunity to tell it yourself.

9:35

So if you, if you, if you don't mind,

9:37

would you just tell me what happened on that day in June

9:39

and kind of how the day started and what,

9:42

what happened going forward?

9:44

Yeah, and I apologize if,

9:46

uh, if I stutter

9:48

or stop a little bit. I haven't told this

9:50

story

9:51

for that

9:51

in a while. Yeah,

9:53

Don't apologize. If you need to stop as well, you

9:55

tell me, okay? I'm not here to be cruel

9:57

to you. You don't have to do anything you don't want to.

10:00

Yeah, no worries. It's interesting, you know,

10:02

about being a widow is that you,

10:04

you're, I feel like the first year I was like, how did

10:06

they die? And then it transitions

10:08

into this beautiful part of what I heard about how

10:10

they lived and I'm into that how they

10:13

lived phase. And so I haven't talked a

10:15

ton about how he died,

10:17

because I don't want that to identify

10:20

all there is about him.

10:21

Yes, yeah. And that was a fear

10:23

at first because I was just all anybody wanted to know.

10:25

Yeah.

10:26

And especially when it's a dramatic death, because

10:29

there is so much interest in it.

10:31

And I, I, I absolutely agree. And

10:34

I have been talking about Ben's death

10:36

a lot more recently, because I don't know whether you guys

10:38

are aware, but there's a, uh, uh, Dr.

10:40

Michael Mosley has died and he's, he was missing.

10:43

And so I've been approached for comments

10:45

on things on this. And It's actually pulled me back

10:47

into almost doing what you guys are doing here.

10:49

I think it's over a year since I sat and recorded

10:51

mine. And I kind of, you

10:54

kind of forget how, cause we've all

10:56

got a, like a script, right? Like

10:58

I've got a script. I can tell you my husband died, how old

11:00

my children were, that it was a really shit time,

11:02

but we're doing okay now. And I can do that with

11:04

a straight face, almost monotone. I look like

11:06

I don't give a shit, but it's not that.

11:09

It's, it's a creative, it's a script that I

11:11

have created or a mask I've created so that I don't

11:13

have to pull myself back into that pain when

11:15

I talk about it. And what you do when you come

11:17

on here is you do go back into it. And it's like a really

11:19

intensive therapy session because

11:21

you are confronting a lot of things that perhaps

11:23

you, you, you don't want to think about all the time.

11:27

And I. I, that's why

11:29

I asked you to talk a little about who Bill was, and I

11:31

think we'll probably end up doing that again. If

11:34

you do struggle or you do find this difficult, you

11:37

can stop at any time. But I think this

11:40

is important to talk about what it was like for you, because

11:43

that sounds harsh, but Bill was dead.

11:45

But you were there and you were still waiting and worrying

11:48

and scared. And I think it's really important

11:50

that we focus, we talk a lot about how we felt

11:52

in the process. So I,

11:55

I do like to think I'm a therapist. I'm not, I have no

11:57

qualifications as you are. So when

11:59

you're ready, if you're comfortable to do so, just,

12:01

just tell me a little bit about what happened that

12:03

day and, um, and we'll sort of jump

12:06

in and out.

12:06

Yeah. And I know what you mean too about

12:09

whenever a story of someone going missing

12:11

or we get a lot of being

12:13

in Washington state, we're right by the water and there's

12:15

a lot of fishermen that go missing

12:17

and I get like, I hear those

12:19

stories. I'm just like, Oh my gosh. I know

12:22

the first thought is, Oh, the poor family

12:24

and the widow and how

12:27

they

12:27

And you know, what's coming.

12:28

Yeah. Especially when. They're

12:31

missing, and they haven't located

12:33

them. That's the most terrifying part

12:35

for me. So, uh,

12:38

Bill went missing

12:40

on June 25th,

12:43

2022. He was

12:45

set out to do a kayaking,

12:48

whitewater kayaking trip in

12:50

my boat, actually. Um,

12:53

the night before was talking about the trip

12:55

with his friend who was going with him.

12:58

And was making comments

13:00

about, uh, Things

13:03

that, in hindsight, it's just like, oh

13:05

my gosh, I can't believe that he was saying

13:07

these things. One of the things being,

13:10

there's no cell service where he went. And

13:12

so, I was saying, you

13:14

need to get a device, bring a device

13:16

with you that is capable

13:19

of sending out an SOS. And so

13:21

when his friend has a device called

13:23

a Garmin inReach, which is a

13:26

GPS device that has pre recorded messages

13:28

that go out to emergency contacts. So he can't just make

13:31

a phone call or a text message, but

13:33

that can send out a message to

13:35

emergency response and the emergency

13:37

contacts for his friend who has the device

13:39

that pays for it. And that was one of the things

13:42

that they, Didn't even think about bringing, and

13:44

my thought was, what if you

13:46

get to a part of the river that you're unfamiliar

13:48

with and you can't get through,

13:50

you can call us and

13:53

we can come pick you up. Because where he was

13:55

going wasn't very far from our cabin.

13:59

The place where he was going was a part of

14:01

the river that he was unfamiliar with.

14:03

And he had just seen in hiking

14:06

trips and so his opinion of the

14:08

spot was that it was a very chill,

14:10

relaxed river where he could raft

14:14

a little bit, pull out,

14:16

assess the areas that maybe

14:18

look a little bit sketchy, walk around

14:20

them if they didn't look like he could, he

14:22

could draft through it. And

14:24

I remember the night before when I asked

14:27

him, what are you going to do if you hit? A

14:29

lot of jam or a spot in there that you can't

14:31

get through and he said, I'm just going to pull over,

14:34

take the boat out of the water and

14:36

go around it and I kept telling him,

14:38

that's just not how it works. You can't always do

14:40

that. And, and those comments

14:43

that I made are just burned into my memory because

14:46

that's exactly what happened. So, Saturday

14:49

morning on the 25th,

14:52

he said, He set out

14:54

to go on this rafting trip with his

14:56

friend. He wanted to raft

14:58

from the spot he put into the river

15:01

through the lake that's near our

15:03

house and then through the second half of the

15:05

river and then pull out right

15:07

by our house. So he just needed someone to drop

15:09

him off at the top and then he would come

15:11

home from from there. Rafting.

15:15

I refuse to take

15:16

I'm just gonna, uh, when you say rafting, sorry,

15:18

just because I'm not familiar with

15:20

it, are we talking like coming down

15:23

like whitewater rafting? So quite,

15:25

um, like, I'm

15:28

going to, what's the correct term? Rough? Like

15:30

quite, it's, it's, it looks quite

15:32

dangerous.

15:33

Yes.

15:34

not kayaking down and okay.

15:37

Yes, but I think in his opinion

15:39

that this was, you know, there's a fine

15:42

line between flat water or relaxed

15:44

kayaking and the whitewater kayaking and

15:47

being that this was a river he was unfamiliar

15:49

with. I think in his mind, he thought it was going to

15:51

be a little bit more relaxed. But he

15:53

was in a boat that was capable

15:56

of the extreme whitewater kayaking.

15:59

He was wearing a life jacket, which

16:01

is one of those questions that early

16:03

on I would get a lot of people who would ask,

16:06

was he wearing a life jacket? Because people just can't

16:08

imagine someone drowning. If

16:10

they were wearing a life jacket and he was

16:12

but he wasn't.

16:13

want reasons as well. They want to know,

16:15

like, it's a horrible thing to say,

16:18

and I don't think people mean it with malice, but I think they almost

16:20

want to know that there was a mistake made,

16:22

because that means that it doesn't mean that the whole

16:25

process is safe. Does that make

16:27

sense to you? You know, because if it's

16:29

just a freak of nature and something

16:31

goes wrong, we can't protect ourselves from that.

16:33

But if you forgot to put your seatbelt on in a car, or

16:35

you forgot to put your life jacket on, there's

16:38

a You can find a reason, perhaps.

16:42

Hypothesising, as always.

16:44

Yeah. And then jumping ahead in the story

16:46

there was there was a period where I had

16:48

after he was found and everything where a

16:50

local newspaper contacted me because they

16:52

were trying to get the police records. Because

16:55

they were writing an article about people dying

16:57

without life jackets on, and they were trying to determine

17:00

if his accident was caused because he wasn't

17:02

wearing a life jacket. And that was a big triggering moment.

17:04

It's like, do I want the media to have access

17:06

to this police report? And

17:09

then if I didn't, I'd have to spend a ton

17:11

of money to hire lawyers to get it all sealed up.

17:14

But the article was just about life

17:16

jackets, and so I didn't want

17:18

to spend the money. I didn't have the money to

17:20

No.

17:20

So, um Yeah,

17:23

he was not,

17:26

he was not wearing a helmet, which

17:28

is something that you should be wearing in those circumstances

17:31

and, you know, it's anybody's guess on

17:33

what actually happened, but that could have

17:35

been one of the contributing

17:37

factors was not wearing a helmet. So,

17:40

the, yeah, the portion of the river he was unfamiliar

17:42

with. He probably

17:44

thought that it was going to be more relaxed than it

17:46

actually was. I, I actually know he thought

17:48

it was more relaxed. I think he went too far

17:51

up river where he, he

17:53

had never done this part of the river before.

17:55

And he also in the whitewater

17:58

realm, he was, He was more

18:01

experienced in whitewater rafting, so with

18:03

a river raft rather than a kayak,

18:06

so he wasn't very experienced in

18:08

whitewater kayaking, which

18:10

he was in a kayak when he died. So,

18:14

um, the, so the morning

18:16

that he left, he

18:18

needed a ride to where

18:20

he was going to put into the river, because

18:23

he was going to come back down to our house. And

18:25

I refused to drive him. I just had

18:27

this bad gut feel about the

18:29

whole situation and I

18:32

said, I'm not taking you up there. I don't condone this.

18:34

I don't, I think this is too risky.

18:36

You don't know the area. And he

18:38

being the nothing bad ever happens to me type

18:41

guy just said, it's fine.

18:43

I'll be fine. We're going to be fine. And

18:45

he got someone else to drive him up

18:47

there with a friend. So the two

18:49

of them were going to do the trip together.

18:53

So you had a, you had like one

18:55

of these, um, really

18:58

spooky gut feelings that he shouldn't go

19:00

and do this. Have you had them

19:02

before?

19:03

Yes. Yeah, definitely.

19:04

Mm. And,

19:06

sense.

19:08

you cross with him that he didn't listen to your gut instinct?

19:11

Well, we had this relationship where we would live

19:13

our lives, and

19:15

No. Same.

19:16

give him my opinion on the situation,

19:18

but then he was ultimately the adult

19:20

and could make the decision himself, and he gave me that

19:22

same respect. Whether it was spending

19:24

money on an expensive dress or

19:27

going whitewater

19:28

kayaking. Yeah,

19:31

it's, it's interesting, isn't it? Because, um,

19:34

I, I, you know, I felt I

19:36

should have said to him, don't go, you know, why

19:38

was he, why did he go on a horrible day in March

19:41

in the UK? You know, there's why, but

19:43

it's much like you, he was an independent

19:45

sentient being and I'm not

19:47

his owner. And actually.

19:50

Where'd you draw the line? I've got, I've got a bad feeling.

19:52

You can't go out in the car today. You know, you have to

19:55

let people live their lives. You can vocalize your concerns,

19:57

but that must have stung

19:59

to know that you had that feeling

20:02

Yeah, I mean, at the time,

20:03

like a warning for you.

20:04

It didn't make sense at the time, but now, in hindsight,

20:06

it's like, oh my gosh, like. I

20:09

haven't really thought, I don't really think in the

20:11

what ifs because I just can't change the

20:13

You can't Kenya, you go mad.

20:15

Yeah, so. I

20:17

couldn't, what if I would have said

20:19

more or really kind of put my foot down,

20:21

but that doesn't bring him back,

20:23

That's not a healthy marriage either. Is it?

20:24

Right, right, totally. Yeah.

20:28

So he's, he goes, he's gone anyway

20:30

and he managed to persuade someone to drive him. I love that you've

20:32

just refused to take him. I like that.

20:33

Yeah, yeah, so I had a very lazy

20:35

morning, um, didn't even put on a bra,

20:38

like you said in your story, you weren't

20:40

wearing a bra, and I remember that part being

20:42

something that was like, oh my gosh, I need to put a bra

20:44

on. But

20:47

I got a phone call from his

20:50

friend's wife, who was the emergency

20:52

contact for the Garmin inReach

20:54

device, and she

20:57

was saying, hey, I just got an SOS.

21:00

When she called me, I knew something was wrong because

21:02

we text. She wouldn't just text, Hey,

21:05

let's go hang out or our husbands are together, let's

21:07

do something. But getting a phone call is

21:09

just like immediately, you know, something's wrong.

21:11

And she says, I just got an SOS

21:14

and a GPS location from

21:17

the inReach device.

21:20

And your heart at this point must have

21:22

just dropped.

21:25

My first thought was just, they

21:28

can't get around the spot that they're at in the river.

21:30

And they just need us to come pick them up. I

21:33

didn't even think the worst. Um,

21:36

and in fact, I didn't even think the worst for

21:38

probably a day, maybe.

21:40

Because I just, you know, thought,

21:43

Bill's this big, burly guy. He's had

21:46

dreams of doing those survival shows

21:48

and watched survival YouTube videos.

21:50

And that was just, you know, He would survive

21:53

anything. So, the first

21:55

thoughts, well, back up.

21:57

We jump into my car and we drive out

21:59

there where the SOS pin was

22:02

hitting. And, we

22:04

get there before emergency services are

22:07

there. But just, like,

22:10

maybe 60 seconds before, we

22:12

find the first search and rescue vehicle

22:14

arrive. And,

22:16

you guys are the first on the scene.

22:18

and we, the pin is pretty

22:20

exact and so that we go to

22:22

where the spot is and walk into the woods and

22:24

see the river and we see her husband

22:27

and it's a raging river,

22:30

a raging waterfall where

22:32

he went missing and not

22:35

raftable. So, if he had been

22:38

familiar with the water, he would have known.

22:40

He went too far upriver. He went to a spot

22:43

that would not have been something

22:45

that they would have been able to walk around or

22:48

go through. So that

22:50

was probably, you know, the first mistake that

22:52

happened is they went too far upriver.

22:55

So as you're, you're getting out the car and you're with

22:57

your friend and you see your friend's husband. Now

22:59

for her, there must have been this enormous

23:02

relief. Um, because.

23:04

He, she can see him, but

23:07

for you, you can't see

23:09

Bill. So what on earth is going through your head

23:11

at this point?

23:12

My thoughts are just he's somewhere

23:15

else on the shores of the river waiting

23:17

for us to find him. And that

23:19

was my thoughts for the entire day. So,

23:23

um, and this is where a lot of the

23:26

memories get a little bit fuzzy,

23:29

but

23:30

Hmm. You're in good company there.

23:32

yeah, and and there's a lot of details

23:34

that. I remember that I don't

23:37

remember, but it

23:39

basically from this point,

23:42

hundreds of people from search and rescue show up

23:44

from my local fire department. And

23:46

then from the sheriff's department,

23:48

the greater county sheriff's department, and then

23:50

the greater counties search and rescue

23:52

department showed up on

23:55

scene. They, um, we

23:57

now are trying to get my

23:59

friend's husband who is in Bill's

24:01

friend, who is. on the shores

24:04

in a spot that's really hard to reach. So they're getting

24:06

him out and

24:08

trying to figure out what happened. And

24:10

all his friend said was, He

24:13

said, Bill said, and

24:15

I, I don't know if I'm quoting these words correctly.

24:18

This is bigger than I thought. We need to get out

24:20

of the river. And that was the last thing Bill

24:22

said. And that was the last time his friends

24:24

saw him and anybody saw him. So,

24:28

we don't know where Bill is. We don't know if he pulled

24:31

off into the shore, if he went

24:33

down the waterfall, where he's, if

24:35

he's stuck at the bottom of the waterfall, if he's,

24:37

He's floated downriver, we

24:40

know he has a lifejacket on, we know

24:42

he's an experienced swimmer and

24:44

he's an experienced river rafter.

24:46

And so the big piece of what Search and

24:48

Rescues did was a ground

24:51

search crew through the shores of the river

24:53

for miles down shore and

24:56

a drone, a couple of drones

24:58

came through and were searching the river.

25:01

With drones and then towards

25:04

the end of the afternoon, and it took

25:06

a while. They finally got a helicopter

25:08

to come in to do a search as well.

25:11

And that was super eerie

25:14

because the helicopter had over a loudspeaker

25:17

flying through the river. describing

25:20

what Bill looked like and said, we have someone missing.

25:22

This is what he was wearing. And

25:25

I remember exactly what he was wearing because he was

25:27

wearing my life jacket. He was wearing,

25:29

um, you know, just equipment that I was familiar

25:32

with. And so just hearing a helicopter

25:34

fly through describing

25:37

what he was wearing was just very

25:39

eerie for me. And I was there

25:41

through all of these situations

25:43

right there, just kind

25:45

of sitting in shock. I didn't participate in

25:47

different school. Not equipped to

25:49

do that. I have never

25:52

been trained.

25:53

equipped in that moment.

25:54

Yeah, so I didn't participate

25:56

in any of that. We just kind of sat there

25:58

and, and the whole time I'm thinking

26:01

he's somewhere down river. There's

26:03

no cell service. He doesn't even have a cell phone.

26:05

It's at home. And here's the

26:07

weird part too. He had the GPS

26:10

device on his boat and his friend

26:13

And climbed

26:15

through some rocks to get it and got the

26:17

Garmin device and was able to trigger the

26:19

SOS. So

26:22

Bill's boat's been located, but Bill

26:24

hasn't.

26:27

my goodness. And

26:31

at what point did I call the search

26:34

off? Um, because for

26:36

you and I. Having

26:39

the search called off is, um,

26:42

or at this, we are no longer looking for life,

26:44

um, signs of life. Like those are words

26:46

that will, they're in

26:49

color in me on like a cellular level. You

26:51

know, we were no longer looking

26:53

for, we're no longer looking

26:55

for a rescue. We're looking for a body and

26:57

words like that, that you suddenly you're hearing

27:00

in connection to your husband. And I'm obviously,

27:03

because there is land around, at

27:05

what point did they say to you, we are no longer looking

27:07

for. Um, to rescue,

27:09

I, I'm, I'm sorry if I'm pushing you through

27:11

the story, but for me, it happened quite quickly because

27:13

he was in the sea. So there's no land

27:16

in, within reach. And I'm just wondering when,

27:18

when this conversation happened for you.

27:20

Yeah, for me, it wasn't until

27:22

there was evidence that he probably

27:24

didn't survive. And that wasn't

27:27

until the next day. And so, the,

27:31

the climate at the time was

27:33

very warm day and a massive

27:36

amount of snow. Melts and

27:38

so the river was raging the river was high

27:41

and the the search

27:43

for the day was called off Towards

27:46

the end of the evening when they kind of

27:48

said hey, like we're not finding

27:50

him We're not finding any evidence of him

27:52

other than his boat and

27:55

we've done the helicopter. We've done these drones.

27:57

We've done people We're gonna stop

27:59

for the day and we're gonna come back tomorrow And

28:03

I was up in that spot where

28:05

he was last seen the entire,

28:08

the entire day. At

28:10

that point, me,

28:12

my friend, whose husband

28:14

was with Bill, and another friend

28:17

decided to head home for the day.

28:19

And I know this is something

28:21

that's common for widow people, and this is where

28:23

it started for me. I

28:25

didn't eat and I love food. I

28:29

had all of my friends going, we're going to find Bill. It's

28:31

fine. He's just stuck in the woods somewhere. He's probably

28:33

trying to find his way to the road. He could

28:35

be on the other side of the river and doesn't

28:37

have a way to get back over. There's no self

28:40

service. He doesn't have a cell phone. He has no

28:42

location devices on him. He'll

28:44

be fine. He's, he's very

28:47

capable of being lost in the woods. And

28:49

lots of bargaining. I can hear lots of bargaining.

28:52

He's gonna be alright. He can do this.

28:53

So we, I go home. After

28:56

they've finished the search for the day, and

28:58

my friends are like, let's get you food, let's feed

29:00

you, I'm like, I'm not going to eat. And that was when it started

29:03

of me not eating, I think for probably a week,

29:05

which is the weird side effect that I didn't even know

29:07

was a stress, stress reaction

29:10

for me. Um, and

29:12

I still do it even to this day when I'm super stressed.

29:14

I don't, I don't eat. So,

29:16

this is so weird. Same. Same.

29:18

I have to make, I make myself like, um,

29:21

shakes with like bone broth and collagen

29:23

and big green powder and stuff, because

29:25

if I don't, it's like my hunger signals

29:28

have gone. And as soon as I'm slightly stressed and

29:30

really I should be like a size eight supermodel by now,

29:32

but for some reason it doesn't seem to work like that.

29:34

I

29:34

But it's that, it's

29:36

like when, when it hits in the stomach, I can't

29:38

eat. People will make you things or

29:40

offer you things and you physically cannot

29:43

Yeah, yeah.

29:44

drink. I manage that, but not eat.

29:46

That's it.

29:47

So, right before dusk,

29:50

uh, my friend who was staying with me.

29:52

And I were like, let's just go

29:55

one more time, like, what if he

29:58

made it downriver and he's made

30:00

it up a bank and he's walking

30:02

down the road? So let's just do one

30:04

quick drive up, call out

30:06

his name a few times, and then we'll come and

30:08

we'll find, I mean, maybe we'll find him and we'll come home. So

30:11

we do that. And

30:14

immediately when we're pulling into the

30:17

part of the road where it kind of transitions

30:20

from where there's some people that live there to

30:22

it's definitely wilderness, we're going A big

30:24

bear runs across the road, like a huge

30:26

bear. And we have bears,

30:29

but you don't see them very

30:31

often, and I had never seen a bear in person

30:33

at my house up until this point.

30:35

And this bear runs across the road, and

30:37

it just creeps us out. But we continue on, and

30:40

we hit a couple spots along the river. We get

30:42

out, and we just yell his name. And

30:45

then there was one spot that looked like a really good spot. But

30:47

we had to hike in a little bit, so we start hiking in,

30:50

and I'm like, we're going to run into a bear,

30:52

we can't do this. And so we actually run

30:55

back to the car and we never find

30:57

Bill, obviously, we never find Bill.

30:59

I mean, sensible move, I think.

31:01

I don't want to go walking with

31:02

No, and I didn't have any

31:04

bear spray on me or anything like that.

31:07

Um,

31:08

I'm not a fan of even bear sprays. I think we don't have bear spray

31:10

in the UK. You know,

31:11

yeah, and

31:12

we have fly spray.

31:14

so we end up going back to the house and

31:17

the weird thing is, It's the

31:19

hardest I've ever slept

31:21

and the best sleep I've ever had was that

31:23

night because I think it was so much

31:26

adrenaline From the day

31:28

that I just passed out and

31:31

I passed out hard and

31:33

here's where the details get

31:34

your body defense, isn't it? Maybe.

31:36

what, I think there is some details that I was forgetting

31:38

too, is that I made

31:41

the conscious decision that that day,

31:43

the day he went missing, to not

31:45

tell too many people, because I

31:48

wanted to be prepared for whatever

31:50

may happen, and one of those things

31:52

being we don't find him, and I didn't.

31:55

I'm very realistic,

31:58

straightforward, don't sugarcoat things,

32:00

and I didn't want people to say, he's

32:02

a big strong man, we're gonna find

32:04

him, he'll be okay. Didn't

32:07

want those comments. Even

32:09

from the beginning because I wanted to

32:11

be prepared for anything that was possible

32:14

and and that being we

32:16

don't find him and he's dead.

32:19

You've just made the hair stand up on my arms

32:21

again because I, um,

32:24

I did a Facebook post because Ben

32:26

was missing. You know, just to say, please

32:29

look out for him at this point. I'm fairly certain

32:31

he's dead, but I didn't use that in

32:33

the, in the wording because, but

32:36

also what I got is

32:38

a lot of people well meaning people. I'm sure

32:40

telling me not to give up hope, you know, maybe he was

32:42

out there and actually I, it's. You

32:46

have to prepare yourself. You have to prepare your

32:48

heart to be broken. And hope

32:51

is very dangerous in a situation like ours,

32:53

because actually, you have to be prepared

32:56

for, you can't blindly hope that they're going

32:58

to turn up on a fishing boat or, you know,

33:00

lost in the woods. It's It's

33:03

really, really tricky, but I'm also thinking

33:05

about how difficult that must have been to be experiencing

33:08

this and then not be telling people because

33:11

you're having to put on, we have to wear a mask

33:13

a lot as a widow, as a woman, you

33:15

know, in life. But, um, I

33:17

think having to sort of put a mask

33:19

on and go about your business must have been very, very

33:22

challenging.

33:24

Yeah. And I think that those,

33:26

those, you know, well meaning

33:28

thoughts of hope or comments of hope.

33:31

Make the heartbreak even harder

33:33

when the realization is that they're not coming

33:35

back and I don't I

33:37

don't think I Knew at that point

33:39

that he wasn't coming back. I still had a little like

33:42

first part of 50 50 Actually,

33:44

it's probably more 75 like he's just

33:46

lost. I didn't

33:48

it didn't That him

33:50

being dead didn't occur to me at that point, but

33:53

I made a phone call to

33:55

One of his family members to say tell your immediate

33:57

family that please don't go beyond that and

33:59

I made a phone call to My

34:02

fam some phone calls to my family immediate

34:04

family to say he's missing. My

34:07

brother was hours and

34:09

hours and hours away and hopped in his car

34:11

that Saturday night and drove overnight

34:14

with one of his friends to my

34:16

house because he

34:18

was going to be a part of the Sunday search

34:20

and rescue and he having

34:22

no experience either at the time on any

34:24

of that but he was going to be a part with

34:27

as many people as we could get that we were going to tell

34:29

like our immediate friend group that lived in the area

34:32

and then um his dad

34:34

and sister ended up driving out on Sunday as well

34:36

so Sunday morning. Everyone

34:39

gets up, meets at my house, and they all decide

34:42

they're going to go do ground search and rescue.

34:44

The local search and rescue was basically like, you

34:46

guys aren't trained in it, but we can't tell you you can't

34:48

do it. And so my friends were like, we're outdoor

34:51

enthusiasts, we're river rafters,

34:54

we know this kind of stuff, we're going to go out there and

34:56

we're going to do this. And

34:58

the interesting part about all of that is that at

35:00

the time, one of those friends was

35:02

a part of the local fire department. But

35:05

now Two

35:07

years later, my brother and

35:10

several of the other people that were a part of that

35:12

ground crew have now joined the fire department,

35:15

have been trained on swift water rescue and

35:17

have done a lot of involvement in search

35:20

and rescue in our area after

35:22

Bill's accident, because one,

35:25

they felt a calling to it and we live in a

35:27

community in an area where this kind of thing

35:29

happens and they wanted to be a part of,

35:31

you know, maybe somebody's rescue story

35:33

instead of somebody's recovery story.

35:37

that's quite powerful. That that's gotten, that's,

35:40

uh, to coin the phrase, it's got me in the fields

35:42

that it has. Um, yeah,

35:45

it's the kind, kindness, actually,

35:47

there's a, just a, that people

35:49

wanted to come to you and they wanted to help and they

35:51

cared enough about you and Bill, um,

35:55

and then they then want to want to

35:57

help other people. I think there's something quite magical

35:59

in there that, and I think that's perhaps a little

36:02

of Bill's legacy that you're seeing coming out here

36:04

and then wanting to do that. And I

36:06

think I often say legacy is

36:08

really important, but this, it's,

36:10

this must've felt almost like, um. Make

36:13

a party. You know, you've got a house full of your favourite

36:15

people, but they're there for such a horrible

36:17

reason.

36:18

yeah, and it was it was a weird

36:21

eerie environment

36:23

because we're not sure if he's alive

36:26

or if he's dead. We're thinking overnight

36:28

maybe if he would have, when we woke up

36:30

in the morning, I was like, maybe he'll show up at the door because

36:32

he's walked all the way down to our house

36:34

or swam or whatever

36:37

it was that he was going to do. So

36:39

the decision was made that a big group of people went

36:41

up and were a part of the search and rescue with.

36:44

All the same people that were involved the day before,

36:46

and I think the helicopter may have come back again.

36:49

In fact, the helicopter did come back on

36:52

Sunday as well to do a search

36:54

of the water and,

36:57

um, And I know this because of a

36:59

detail that comes up in the story. Uh,

37:01

to do a search of the water, the helicopter came through

37:03

as well. So, my brother made some phone calls

37:06

to friends that were in the whitewater community to

37:08

get them to come out as well, because they would be the

37:10

right people to be a part of the search and rescue. The

37:13

decision was made that I would stay home, because

37:15

there's no cell service out where they were going to be.

37:17

And, uh, And I needed to be a

37:19

point person that was available in cell range

37:21

and in a spot where people knew where I

37:23

was if details came up. And

37:26

the sheriff's department or one of the search

37:28

and rescue may have a

37:31

sat phone or something that could communicate

37:33

to me and so I would stay home. That

37:36

was weird. What do you do when you're sitting there waiting

37:39

for someone? Again, news of

37:41

anything, because at the time I still wasn't thinking

37:43

that he was dead. I still was leaning more towards

37:45

the he was out there in the woods somewhere. I

37:48

sat in. Quiet, still

37:51

darkness in my living room. I didn't even turn on

37:53

the TV, and now my go to is trash TV.

37:55

I'm just gonna put on whatever trashy show I can find,

37:57

and that numbs my mind enough

37:59

to take my thoughts off of the worst case scenarios.

38:02

But at the time, I was just sitting there

38:05

in complete silence and darkness and quietness,

38:07

and it didn't take

38:09

long on Sunday for

38:12

news. I was

38:14

sitting in the living room in quiet darkness,

38:18

and I see my dad drive by. And

38:20

he's like, And then I see two sheriff's

38:22

cars drive by, and

38:25

then I see them turn around and drive

38:27

back, and I think my dad is just in this state

38:29

of shock, and to the fact, to the point where he

38:31

drove, completely drove past my house, and the sheriff's

38:34

department didn't know where my house was, and so they were just following

38:36

him to me. So when they

38:38

see my dad turning around, they turn around and they pull into

38:40

my driveway first. And

38:43

I immediately come outside, and I'm

38:45

getting chills just talking about this part.

38:48

I am.

38:49

They come out, I come outside, and

38:52

They're like we're gonna wait for your dad can't

38:57

be good news when they say we're gonna wait for your dad And

38:59

so my dad

39:01

No.

39:02

gets pulls into the driveway and

39:04

then they

39:06

proceed to tell me that Helicopters

39:09

found a blue lifejacket

39:12

and they pull the lifejacket out of the car

39:14

and they said can you identify this lifejacket?

39:17

And they said Yes, that's

39:19

Bill's lifejacket. And

39:22

they said, with

39:26

these types of situations, when you've located

39:28

something like a lifejacket that the person was wearing,

39:30

the odds are that they didn't survive

39:33

whatever accident that it was that they were in.

39:36

And that's the point when I basically

39:38

knew he was dead. And

39:45

in the movies when you see, like, you hear those stories

39:47

about, like, just, you just start, I just started

39:49

sobbing. And my

39:51

dad's sobbing. My dad probably

39:54

blamed himself a little bit because he was

39:56

the catalyst into us getting into river rafting.

39:58

And they

40:00

said, well, you know, maybe

40:03

he took his life jacket off and he's

40:05

wandered off somewhere, but the life

40:07

jacket was zipped up. And Bill was the

40:09

messiest guy. Like, his socks were in

40:11

every place and every crack of the couch

40:13

and everywhere. He didn't take care

40:15

of things. And so there was not a chance

40:18

that he was going to take his life jacket off

40:20

and then zip it up and set it somewhere.

40:24

So I knew, because it was zipped up, that

40:27

he didn't take it off. And so, and

40:29

that, I don't know if they told me this or, or

40:31

what, but basically our, we came to the conclusion

40:34

he was stuck somewhere and

40:36

the swift water ripped the life jacket

40:38

off of his body.

40:40

Yeah. I was going to say,

40:42

how did it come off? But yeah, that makes sense.

40:45

But you're having to do a lot of hypothesizing here, aren't

40:47

you? Um, much like Ben and I, because

40:49

even though, um, I mean, I'll let you

40:51

get to this point in the story, but even though Bill's body was

40:54

found, you still don't know the details.

40:56

And you're having to make stuff up

40:58

and you're like, okay, well, yeah, that sounds

41:00

right. And it's so, it's

41:02

like, it feels, um. It feels

41:05

just really unfair. I'm not saying that I would

41:07

like to know the details of my husband's last moments

41:09

on earth, but I would like, I

41:11

want to know what happened. I want to know what went wrong, what happened.

41:14

And I think, I'm just picturing

41:16

you faced with this zipped up life jacket,

41:19

just feeling the earth beneath your feet go.

41:21

And it's making me cry because

41:23

I'm so sorry that that happened to

41:25

you. I can feel

41:28

it. That

41:30

moment, I, mine was the police officers at

41:32

my door, you know, the second they say

41:34

to you something like, do you want, we need to wait for your dad or do you want,

41:36

you need to sit down? You know, they're not

41:38

going to tell you that you've been, you've missed your recycling

41:40

week, are they? They're there for something pretty horrible.

41:43

Um, you know, I'm, I'm, I,

41:46

I know I said this before, but I am so, so

41:48

sorry. And of course you haven't

41:50

got the closure either at this point. You, you've been

41:52

told that the likelihood is that he's dead,

41:55

but you don't actually know. And that's. We

41:59

both know that's a very confusing time, so what

42:01

on earth did you do next?

42:03

Yeah, the next part of the story is where a

42:05

lot of my memory

42:08

is very foggy. I don't remember

42:10

a ton about the first four

42:12

weeks or, or the four weeks

42:15

between knowing

42:17

he was dead and, and

42:20

then confirming he's dead because we found his body.

42:23

But we

42:25

were at the cabin that I now live in full

42:28

time, but our home was about

42:30

two and a half hours away. So I just needed

42:32

to go there. I had to get away from nature. I was

42:34

mad at nature.

42:37

Oh yeah, I hated the sea for a long time.

42:38

I was just. And

42:41

it's funny because in the healing journey

42:43

people are like go out in nature and be well with nature I

42:45

was like nature took him from you

42:47

I

42:47

Yeah, i'm not I don't want to be

42:49

but I did then.

42:51

so, uh, I made the decision to drive

42:53

home and two and a half

42:55

hours back to my my main home and

42:58

That was a stupid decision. I could hardly

43:00

see halfway through the drive. Part of the

43:02

drive, there's no cell service, and so I had to listen to

43:04

pre downloaded music that was on my phone. And my

43:06

music taste is very, kind of, acoustic

43:10

y, quiet, sad songs. And so that was

43:12

what was pre

43:13

Oh,

43:13

Yeah, that was what was available on my phone.

43:15

And so I'm listening to these songs, and I'm just like, oh my

43:17

god, and crying. And I, like, My

43:20

eyeballs are swollen and I

43:22

can't hardly see and I'm driving. And

43:24

so then I was like, I need to call somebody. So I called my best

43:26

friend who was also in on, I had

43:28

called her the night he went missing to tell

43:31

her because she's my best friend. And

43:33

so I just needed to talk to her while I'm driving

43:35

because I needed.

43:38

To not be alone and,

43:40

uh, and to be safe because

43:42

what if something happened to me? So

43:44

I drove home and also called

43:47

my sister, um, one of my two

43:49

sisters, and she lives two hours

43:51

away from me. And so she's having to tell

43:53

her kids that their uncle, who they're very

43:55

close with, has probably died. But then I'm also asking

43:57

her to come be with me. And

43:59

I felt so terrible about that experience. It's like you need

44:02

to be with the kids who just lost their uncle, but also

44:04

I need you. And so she was like, I'll make the best

44:06

decision that's best for my family. And her

44:08

decision was to come down and be with me. So my. Two

44:11

best friends of my sister came down and

44:13

brought me like puffy eye,

44:17

you know, masks and to help with

44:19

my eyeballs that were swollen and offered

44:22

obviously food which was not of interest

44:24

to me for a long time and

44:26

we just watched, that's when

44:28

I started watching the trashy TV shows to,

44:31

uh, to,

44:32

The office is a, is a popular one with, uh,

44:34

I hear the American office. Yeah. And

44:36

where, where do you stand on a hug? Because if

44:39

you are into, if you like a hug, then

44:41

feeling some, then,

44:43

um, one of the things that you miss so badly

44:46

when your person is missing or, you know,

44:48

you can't reach them is that feeling of, of just

44:50

being held and I really struggled to

44:52

kind of let people hold me to let myself

44:54

go vulnerable and weak in their

44:56

arms. I would do that on my own. But

44:59

to lay my head on somebody else's chest

45:01

and sob is something I've not done very

45:03

Yeah, and I mean just in this hour

45:06

that we've been talking, you can probably tell I'm a little bit stoic

45:08

and and I don't show emotion.

45:10

That's how I was raised. You don't talk

45:12

about you don't talk about your feelings very

45:15

often. You don't hug.

45:16

of the 80s, babies.

45:17

And so it was, I

45:20

deactivated social media. I didn't

45:22

respond to any calls or text messages. I had

45:24

point per people because I didn't want, again,

45:27

the false hope because still we didn't have his body

45:29

and it was just, uh, we thought we were pretty

45:31

sure he was dead at this point but didn't know for sure.

45:34

And again, like he said, I

45:36

didn't want to be touched. I didn't want that,

45:39

you know, to be placated.

45:41

I wanted to just

45:44

mind numb TV shows. See

45:48

how the next, which I didn't

45:50

know how long it was going to last, but it ended

45:52

up being four weeks, was going to play out. So,

45:56

And are you a drinker? Did you have a drink?

45:58

that's something that I didn't, I mean, I do,

46:01

I'm a social drinker, but I didn't,

46:04

But you didn't lean into it.

46:05

not at all.

46:06

Sensible.

46:07

not at all.

46:08

People tend to go one of two ways, don't they? Because

46:10

John, he was the same. He didn't. He

46:12

stopped drinking because he, needed

46:15

to feel in control, whereas I lent

46:17

into my, what already was problematic

46:19

alcohol use, but I

46:21

lent into it because it was my coping strategy.

46:24

Um, and I, I just asked that because I

46:26

know that had I had

46:29

four weeks, I probably would have spent

46:31

it anesthetizing myself with alcohol. Um,

46:35

but I think we all find, we find what works

46:37

for us at the time. And I think shit

46:39

telly that that's probably

46:41

yeah, yeah. I think you're right, though. I think that maybe

46:43

that is a control thing for me, because I'm a bit of a

46:45

control freak. And so that's probably why I didn't.

46:48

Lean into the any alcohol use or anything like

46:50

that. Yeah. So the four

46:52

And when.

46:53

were

46:54

Yeah, I was just going to say, you've got four weeks here,

46:56

and so in this four weeks, what

46:58

are you, what are you doing? Like, what on earth

47:00

is going through your head? Because, have

47:03

you, do you think that you accepted at the point the

47:05

police came, the sheriff came, do

47:07

you think that was the point that you accepted that Bill was

47:09

dead? Or did that take

47:12

until, so you knew that he was gone

47:14

and, yeah. And did you think at this

47:16

point that you may never find his body?

47:18

that was the biggest fear and that was

47:20

why when I heard your story it was

47:22

just like Your outcome

47:25

was different than mine at the end of the day, but

47:27

the start of the story is very similar

47:29

and I was like horrified because

47:31

that was the entire time I was just like, what

47:34

if, what if, what if, what if, what if, what if we don't

47:36

find his body? What, what do I have to go

47:38

through? What, how

47:40

am I going to pay my bills? How am I

47:42

going to sell a house? Because both

47:44

of our names are on a house. And so

47:46

through that four week period. The

47:49

search and rescue was pretty consistent and regular

47:52

and trying to recover his body, but there

47:54

was an understanding that the

47:56

water was really high. So, in my conversations

47:59

with the sheriff's department and search and rescue was,

48:01

we're going to send people out. It's not going to be as

48:03

big of a crew. And we're really going to wait for the water

48:05

to drop because if he's stuck somewhere

48:08

in the water or in a log jam

48:10

or something like that, he probably won't be

48:12

found until the water is low

48:14

enough that we can see him. And so, my

48:16

brother was out. Damn near

48:18

every day, looking for somebody, looking

48:20

for him, not somebody, with somebody else,

48:23

and who was operating a drone,

48:26

and so they ended up locating other parts

48:28

of the drone. pieces of his equipment, they found

48:30

his paddle, they found the shirt he was wearing,

48:33

um, and things like that.

48:35

So I continued to find things

48:37

that he had. And

48:40

for that, for,

48:41

It's like the world's worst, um,

48:44

what's it called? When kids go on the trails,

48:46

um, treasure,

48:50

treasure trail. It's the world's worst treasure trail,

48:52

isn't it? You're like,

48:53

yeah,

48:54

That's the word I was looking for. I

48:58

told you I'd forget some words.

48:59

So, The other

49:01

thing is that my,

49:03

uh, the company that I just left

49:06

was based in New Zealand and my boss is

49:08

in New Zealand and he jumped on a plane

49:10

and he's like, I don't know what I'm going to do when I get there, but I'm just

49:12

going to come. And so he came

49:15

and he helped with my job and

49:17

he, uh, Came over to my house and

49:19

took my dog for a walk and

49:21

just kind of was there and support

49:23

for a week around like right at

49:25

the very beginning. It was, it was really

49:28

amazing. I'm like, who does that? It's a 24 hours

49:31

I've never, I have never heard that.

49:33

Yeah. It was pretty amazing.

49:35

That's incredible.

49:36

um, the other thing is that

49:38

through that period of time I contacted

49:41

his work. Obviously, he wasn't gonna be showing up and this

49:43

is a detail about Bill that I didn't share, which is kind

49:45

of cool, is that Bill was a rocket scientist. So

49:49

Shut up!

49:50

engines for Blue Origin, which is Jeff

49:52

Bezos's company and, and uh,

49:56

Bill was a roc you left that until

49:58

51 minutes into this conversation

50:00

to tell me that Bill was a rocket scientist.

50:03

Oh, what a cool job!

50:05

so I had to get a hold of his work and like,

50:08

Yeah, he's not going to be showing up. I didn't

50:10

have his boss's phone number. I didn't even know who his boss

50:12

was, but I knew one person at his work. And so that's

50:14

who I contacted. And basically

50:17

had to keep them updated on what was going on

50:19

as well because he wasn't there. And so they basically

50:22

just like put a vacation time in

50:24

for him at that period. But they

50:26

did put me in contact with

50:28

their HR department because one of the benefits that

50:30

he had at his work was It's bereavement

50:33

services. And this

50:35

is a service that they offered for people who

50:38

were facing death and people who had died.

50:40

So if you were having cancer treatment, they would help

50:42

you with bereavement planning.

50:45

And so they put me in contact with the bereavement

50:47

services. That was a benefit through his work.

50:49

And they do everything from

50:53

funeral planning, therapy. Anything

50:55

you want. And so the first thing she did

50:58

when she sat down with me was what do

51:00

you want to know? And I was like, why am I acting like how I'm

51:02

acting? Because I'm not emotional. I

51:04

just want to figure things out. How am I

51:06

gonna pay my mortgage? Who, you

51:08

know, where, what do I tell

51:11

his work? And, and, and

51:13

then part of it also was I

51:15

need therapy. Who do I talk to?

51:17

Who would understand someone who is

51:20

a very I call myself a blissfully

51:22

ignorant person in life because I've never

51:24

had anything bad happen to me up until

51:26

that point. I've just had something traumatic

51:29

happen to me. Who can, can cope

51:31

with that? And so, the bereavement services

51:33

first started out with hooking me up with a therapist.

51:36

She explained to me grieving and

51:38

a emotional grief reversal. griever,

51:41

and she said, you're an instrumental griever, so

51:43

your grieving type is you

51:45

want to get things done, check boxes, if that

51:48

makes you feel better. And

51:51

yes, and that was a

51:53

huge weight that was lifted off my shoulders because I felt

51:55

weird up until that point. Like, why

51:57

am I? Not grieving

52:00

him like how I see it in the movies.

52:04

Why am I not breathing right? Yeah. Yeah.

52:07

I did that. A lot of that thinking, is this what people

52:09

do? Should I do this? You know, am

52:11

I behaving right? And it's

52:13

just one of the things you mentioned, um, that first

52:16

night and you, you with your friends and you're

52:18

like, okay, this is where he is. He's not,

52:20

no, there's no way he's dead. And. Yeah. We,

52:23

it was 48 hours after, so we

52:25

knew Ben was dead at this point. And we

52:27

were having, we were drinking in my living room and my

52:29

best friend was there and my brother was there. And,

52:32

you know, we're like, Oh, come out now, Ben, you know,

52:34

jokes over, you can come out because you're

52:36

just running from that grief, however

52:39

that might be, and for some of us, it is that practical

52:41

side of things. I'm just going to deal with all the practicalities. Um,

52:45

I was less, that was less

52:47

my style of grief. I wanted to just pump. a

52:49

blanket over my head and not have to deal with

52:51

it. But thankfully my mum is very practical,

52:53

so she helped. But it's,

52:56

it's interesting how we don't, how

52:58

we question how we are behaving,

53:00

even though we are the ones going through it. Because

53:03

surely there is no right other, there is no other way to

53:05

behave other than the way you are, because you're

53:07

not making it up. Like

53:10

it's, this is how you feel. And sometimes

53:12

those feelings don't look like Well,

53:15

understand why we don't teach

53:18

like in school I learned how to

53:21

Do all of these math equations, but never was

53:23

taught how to deal with real life situations

53:25

like traumatic events and learning

53:27

about grief and That little,

53:29

there was one slide that she showed me that showed

53:31

me, here's what an emotional griever does, here's what an instrumental

53:34

griever does, so basic and it was so eye

53:36

opening and it's something that took five minutes

53:38

of her time to show me and it opened

53:40

up my eyes to, oh my gosh, I'm,

53:42

I'm normal, I'm, I'm not weird,

53:44

I'm not doing this wrong and why can't we teach

53:46

people these things before they're in a situation

53:49

where they've questioned how they're grieving?

53:52

Like these, these should just be every

53:54

I've just written that down. I'm going to have a look and see if

53:56

I can find that diagram because I've not, I've not

53:58

heard those terms actually. And I suspect

54:01

I'm very much in the emotional grieving camp,

54:03

but I would like to have a look at that. But

54:05

it's, um, yeah, I mean, I felt,

54:07

I don't know whether you felt this as well. Please search my

54:09

house and you feel like a criminal by

54:12

association. And you start thinking,

54:14

and even when I started to venture

54:16

back out into the world, you know, go to the pub or

54:18

go to the soft play with the kids

54:20

and things like that, you're like, Oh, well, people will think

54:22

I'm not sad because I'm smiling and it

54:25

doesn't end even in that early bit, it continues

54:27

that. Am I doing this right? Am I doing

54:30

him justice? Am I doing myself? Just it goes

54:32

on and on. Now.

54:37

So four weeks, so four weeks

54:39

and you must have begun

54:41

to think this is going to be it now. Um,

54:44

I'm not going to find him. I, I know

54:46

he's dead. I'm now going to have to tackle

54:48

the, you know, the legal system and see

54:51

where I stand because I have no death certificate,

54:53

you know. When

54:55

did they find

54:56

Yeah, that's exactly how I spent

54:58

that four weeks period. I, um,

55:01

I basically did jump to worst case

55:03

scenario. So I think I had the benefit

55:06

from you in that I had a four week buffer

55:09

of anybody really kind of knowing what was going on

55:11

other than my close tight knit circle. And

55:13

so, by the time it was public

55:16

knowledge, which was, I waited. Until

55:18

I didn't know when I would tell people if

55:20

we didn't find his body, but I

55:23

was holding out Hope that we would

55:25

and so I didn't tell anybody until we found his

55:27

body and that was four weeks in

55:30

and So had

55:32

the opportunity for people to go. Yep

55:34

I've been through this for the past four weeks

55:37

And so I've had a lot of time to process a lot of what's

55:39

going on that four weeks is very

55:41

strange I actually did end up going back

55:43

to work somewhat. I work remote so

55:45

it was You know, doing some things here

55:47

and there. I needed to occupy my time and

55:50

search and rescue was continuous, but

55:52

the sheriff's department was basically We

55:55

don't think we're going to find him

55:59

now, for sure now, but maybe

56:02

we'll find him when the water levels drop enough,

56:04

and we'll probably do a big

56:06

push of a search and rescue to

56:10

on a day where we think the

56:12

environment is safe. And he's ideal for a big

56:14

push and we're going to bring in kind of divers

56:17

and big guns and all that kind of stuff to really

56:19

try to determine if we can, we can locate him.

56:22

And so that was a scheduled day and

56:24

I knew it was happening. But up until that point, I

56:26

was in communication with a lawyer was

56:28

basically, how do I settle in the state

56:30

of somebody who's missing? And,

56:33

um, and with bereavement services and

56:35

to understand where, you know,

56:38

what I need to do if he's not located

56:40

and then with therapy to try to process

56:43

my own emotions. So

56:45

those.

56:46

How self aware of you though, how self aware

56:48

of you within this four weeks to get yourself

56:51

to therapy, to get yourself talking to these people,

56:53

because it takes people a lot longer

56:55

to accept that they might need the support. And I

56:58

think take some credit for that because you went and

57:00

you sought, um, and I, what

57:02

was it? It was an instrumental griever. You, you went

57:04

out and tried to source some problems, source

57:07

some problems, source solutions, um,

57:09

for yourself as well. And I think that's probably

57:11

why you're here talking to me and able to do

57:13

so because you went. And faced

57:16

the scary thing early on.

57:19

So I, yeah, I've just wanted to interject and

57:21

say that you must take some credit

57:23

for doing that for yourself because a lot of

57:24

Yeah, I like to, I'm a run into

57:27

the fire type person now, that's

57:29

definitely like, don't let something

57:31

fester, like really, you know, dive into

57:33

it, it doesn't do anybody any good to

57:35

fester in those things, so. But

57:38

the real reality and the real,

57:41

the whole time was like, what am I

57:43

going to do if we don't find his body? And I.

57:45

I did some research, talked

57:48

to the lawyer, and it was seven years

57:50

of someone being missing, and you know

57:52

this all too well, um,

57:54

before they're declared dead, but you can

57:56

go to court, and that, even in

57:58

itself, is going to take probably years, and

58:00

my thought is, what, how am I going to

58:02

pay my, I have two houses, I have two mortgages,

58:05

I have two incomes, he

58:07

had a life insurance policy, but

58:09

I wouldn't be able to access it if we

58:11

don't have a death certificate, like what am I going

58:13

to do if we don't find him?

58:19

And it's horrible to have to be thinking in such

58:21

mercenary terms and having to think about money

58:23

when all you want to do is lie on the floor and let your heart

58:25

break. But I, I was the same, you

58:27

know, it was 7 years, okay, well, I,

58:30

I won't, I'll just have to wait 7 years, but then you

58:32

call the mortgage people, well we can't, Cancel

58:34

the mortgage because it's in both names,

58:37

650 on a car payment before I drove it off the line,

58:39

left the drive every month. Um,

58:42

you know, yes, he had life insurance. They couldn't even tell

58:44

me whether they'd pay out in the event of, um,

58:46

an extreme sport. So you are staring,

58:48

you stood on this kind of precipice looking, going,

58:51

okay, I don't want to have to worry about money

58:53

because I want to be sad about my dead

58:55

but you have to Yeah,

58:57

I gonna do? Yeah.

59:00

I tried not to I

59:03

tried not to dwell on it too much But

59:05

that was what occupied most of my time and probably

59:07

distracted me more from my actual

59:10

grief and of his death Was

59:12

just the stress of wondering how am I going

59:14

to

59:15

Practical.

59:16

survive? financially

59:18

survive and and then also

59:22

like When do I decide

59:24

that he's dead? Or like, or, not,

59:26

not, I know he's dead. When do I decide

59:28

that it's time to tell people, it's time

59:31

to hold a funeral, it's time,

59:33

you know, because I'm still kind of, they're still searching

59:35

for him, I'm still holding out hope.

59:37

And, and luckily, the

59:39

day that was scheduled, that they were gonna

59:41

send out the divers and, and the big

59:43

guns, was the day that

59:45

he was located. And,

59:49

And by them,

59:50

them, but the irony is that

59:52

they actually did end up calling off the

59:54

search Before

59:56

they found him. Um My

59:59

brother was a part of this again and kind

1:00:01

of my lead point person in the sheriff's department was like we're

1:00:03

gonna tell your brother What's happening? What's going on? And

1:00:05

he'll communicate it to you because you guys have a tight relationship

1:00:08

he knows how to communicate to you and

1:00:11

you'll pick up the phone when he answers and so my

1:00:13

um, just I worked that day.

1:00:16

I was distracted. I knew it was happening.

1:00:18

I didn't want to put too much thought and energy into

1:00:20

it. And my

1:00:23

best friend and my sister came over because

1:00:25

that afternoon we had beers

1:00:28

on ice because we were like, we're going to drink

1:00:30

one way or the other. This was actually a circumstance where

1:00:32

we were going to drink. And

1:00:35

I think well deserved, I think.

1:00:37

I, I got the phone

1:00:39

call late in the afternoon, and

1:00:41

again where he was located, there was no

1:00:44

cell service. So, there

1:00:46

was no way for me to get updates

1:00:48

throughout the day. It wasn't until the end of the day

1:00:51

when my brother called me and said, I

1:00:54

picked up the phone and I go, did you find him? And he

1:00:56

said, we found him. Back,

1:01:00

backstory. They

1:01:02

had spots in the river that they thought he might

1:01:04

be located. They searched all that. They

1:01:06

called off the dive team. They sent him

1:01:08

home. They said they couldn't find

1:01:11

him and they were pretty much

1:01:13

done. And I can't remember who it was, if it was

1:01:15

one of the search and rescue guys or my brother, but somebody

1:01:17

goes, I think I saw something on a drone. Let's

1:01:19

just go down there when, you know, half

1:01:21

the crew is gone. Let's just go down there and check it

1:01:23

out. And that's

1:01:25

when they found him. And so, then

1:01:28

this is where it gets kind of gruesome and grueling,

1:01:30

so I don't know if like, this is too much detail, but

1:01:32

basically his foot was sticking out of a

1:01:34

log jam several miles

1:01:36

downriver from where he went missing. So,

1:01:39

in all likelihood, he probably died and

1:01:42

then just floated downriver. And

1:01:46

he was in, And yeah, and

1:01:48

he was probably already dead at that point, but that's why they couldn't

1:01:50

locate his body for so long was because he was

1:01:52

so far away from where he went missing, but,

1:01:56

um, and where it was was really remote.

1:01:58

They actually had to bring in a helicopter, and

1:02:01

they had to pull him out and helicopter his

1:02:03

body out of

1:02:05

the river and onto the side

1:02:07

of the road and then then the corner had

1:02:09

to come and pick him up. And,

1:02:12

and then from that point on, we

1:02:15

couldn't identify his body. And

1:02:18

that was very traumatic for me, actually.

1:02:21

Um, it's not like the movies

1:02:23

where you have to go and look

1:02:25

at them and say, yep, that's who they are.

1:02:28

It was, um,

1:02:30

do you have dental records? Again, He's an

1:02:32

adult. He took care of his own medical stuff. I

1:02:34

don't know the last time he went to the dentist or who his dentist

1:02:36

was. We had our own dentist. We had our own doctors. And

1:02:40

the coroner was literally like, You're his wife.

1:02:42

You don't know where his dentist is? And just

1:02:44

was shaming me. Yeah.

1:02:47

And I was like, I don't. Like, he's a grown

1:02:49

man. Like, he took care of that stuff himself.

1:02:51

And so, we couldn't identify him from

1:02:53

dental records. Normally, they identify them from

1:02:56

their driver's license picture, but he was not

1:02:58

identified. Identifiable that

1:03:00

way. Um, and so

1:03:02

I was like, well, he's again,

1:03:05

gruesome. He's really hairy. And they're

1:03:07

like, he's not hairy anymore

1:03:09

because he had been in the water for four weeks. Yeah.

1:03:13

Um, but he was

1:03:15

huge. He had size 13 shoes

1:03:18

in the U S 13. I don't know what that is in UK, but it's

1:03:20

big, really big feet. Yeah. And,

1:03:23

um, and he had a lump on a really big lump

1:03:25

on his back and those things,

1:03:27

the corner was like. I can confirm that those

1:03:29

are true. And so then they were, he

1:03:31

was able to make a legal

1:03:34

and identifiable that it was him.

1:03:39

And then did they do, um, DNA after?

1:03:41

Mm-Hmm.

1:03:43

No.

1:03:43

there's no one else missing out in that area

1:03:45

other than him. And, and, yeah.

1:03:48

what are the chances right.

1:03:49

they, he and I'm, and I don't know,

1:03:51

they didn't tell me, but I'm sure that like. He

1:03:54

might have looked a little bit like his picture. I want

1:03:56

to hope he did and it was like that's not enough

1:03:59

But then the other things that I details I gave

1:04:01

them was enough for them to say that it

1:04:03

was him. Yeah.

1:04:05

Yeah Yeah

1:04:07

Yeah, I can remember asking, um,

1:04:09

the search and rescue, you know, will I have to identify

1:04:12

Ben? And this was a few days after it

1:04:14

wasn't very long and they said to me, um,

1:04:16

no, we won't ask you to

1:04:18

do that. Um, and

1:04:20

actually I found out from speaking to my

1:04:22

eldest son, um, whilst we were on holiday,

1:04:25

um, I, I've

1:04:27

never really spoken to my children. About

1:04:30

whether they want that to be found because it feels,

1:04:32

um, I suppose it's just

1:04:34

not something I've thought to do, if I'm honest, and

1:04:37

it kind of came out that he thought he might have to

1:04:39

see his body. And I was like, darling,

1:04:41

that nobody's going to make you look at your dad's body

1:04:43

ever. And especially not after six

1:04:45

years at sea, you know, or however many years. Um,

1:04:49

and I, I can feel myself physically

1:04:51

recoiling and I'm so sorry because I want to

1:04:53

look at you and listen to your story, but when,

1:04:55

um, and I'm not saying that we can't

1:04:57

talk about it. It's just, I, I steer

1:05:00

away from images

1:05:03

of drownings, um, because

1:05:05

of this reason, because it's so, um, because

1:05:08

you feel like they're stripped of who they

1:05:10

are, you know, it's, um, Oh

1:05:14

gosh, I'm so sorry. And Were

1:05:18

you, did you go when he was found? Did you, did you, were

1:05:20

you there? Were you, you didn't, you

1:05:22

know. I don't, I don't think I'd want to be either. I don't

1:05:24

want to see that

1:05:25

I haven't I haven't been out there

1:05:27

where he was went missing since

1:05:29

that day That he went missing and

1:05:32

my family has said some things like,

1:05:34

let's go out there. I want to like my little sister

1:05:36

who I'm visiting in Texas is a police officer

1:05:39

and her first thought was

1:05:42

right into the fire. She's, she's the first

1:05:44

responder and she wanted to fly up and

1:05:46

the first thing she wanted to do was go out there and

1:05:48

I was like, I'm not going out there. So

1:05:51

I haven't been out to where he was found.

1:05:53

and where he went missing or where he

1:05:55

was found. But my brother did show me the video

1:05:58

of the helicopter and I probably

1:06:00

shouldn't have seen that, that of the

1:06:02

body bag and the helicopter being

1:06:04

lifted out.

1:06:05

Oh my gosh,

1:06:07

um,

1:06:09

it's tough, isn't it? Because you don't want to know it, but

1:06:11

you also, because you know, that video is there.

1:06:13

I've not watched videos of Ben at all in six

1:06:16

years. I can't, uh, every

1:06:18

year I'm like, this is the year. And I think for the

1:06:20

sake of my kids, I'm going to this year. My dad has

1:06:22

a, he's created an, like a, um,

1:06:24

I guess like a real, but he won't call

1:06:26

it that, um, of a video for,

1:06:29

for when they're ready, but

1:06:31

I, I went down to Dover. The

1:06:33

first anniversary, we went to the closest land point,

1:06:36

um, and we put a message in a bottle and

1:06:38

sent it out to sea. But I,

1:06:40

there were divers that offered to go and leave me a

1:06:42

memorial note or things down on the shipwreck

1:06:44

where he was diving. But for me, there's an element of,

1:06:47

but what if they die doing

1:06:48

yeah,

1:06:48

Like it's not a particularly dangerous debt wreck,

1:06:51

but you, I can't shake. So I've said no. And

1:06:53

obviously I have no intentions of going out diving.

1:06:56

And that's the thing is I haven't gone kayaking.

1:06:58

I had a lot of trauma around life jackets.

1:07:00

I did EMDR therapy.

1:07:03

uh, wetsuits for me, wetsuits.

1:07:05

It's just

1:07:06

Oh.

1:07:07

Yeah,

1:07:09

I had to zip my son into a wetsuit. We

1:07:11

live near, um, it's a man made

1:07:13

lake, so it's very, very safe. And it's, uh,

1:07:15

you can paddleboard and kayak out there, but it's

1:07:18

like, it's like a mill pond.

1:07:21

Um, and I zipped my son into a wetsuit

1:07:23

and I just broke down, you know, cause

1:07:25

I used to zip into his wetsuits. It's

1:07:27

the things that set you off. Now, did

1:07:29

you have to make some pretty tough phone

1:07:31

calls to Bill's family or, like,

1:07:35

this is, I'm, I'm. I guess

1:07:37

because yours is so different to mine in terms of

1:07:39

you've got this very precise, you've got the day

1:07:41

he went missing, you've got the day they called

1:07:43

off the search and told you that he was unlikely to be alive,

1:07:45

and then you've got the day that his body was found. So you've got

1:07:48

these three really significant dates and

1:07:50

it's, you know, having to kind

1:07:52

of break

1:07:53

Right. It's like it buttons

1:07:55

up some stages in the

1:07:57

story because and that's where

1:08:00

it's not super open ended because now

1:08:04

At this point, and there was this huge

1:08:06

sense of relief. I don't

1:08:08

have to declare

1:08:09

Mm hmm.

1:08:10

I can move forward with all of

1:08:12

the things that I've started the process on

1:08:15

about, you know, he's actually not, the

1:08:18

weird thing is before his body was even found, his work

1:08:20

did hold a memorial for him and I couldn't attend it.

1:08:22

I was like, he's, we don't have a body.

1:08:24

Like, you know, he's

1:08:26

probably dead.

1:08:28

Also an unusual choice for it to not be his

1:08:30

family as well, like that's an unusual

1:08:32

was so well loved and there was a lot of

1:08:34

people at work that I think, uh.

1:08:37

We're struggling,

1:08:39

Do they name a rocket? Can they name a rocket after him? Because

1:08:41

that

1:08:41

you know, I tried to get them to send some of his

1:08:43

ashes in a rocket and it went up the chain.

1:08:46

It went up

1:08:46

Did you?

1:08:47

But then they were like, oh, we're doing something else for him. And

1:08:50

then the very next rocket that launched after that,

1:08:52

after I was declined blew up.

1:08:54

And so it's like, that was still.

1:08:57

Oh, oh

1:09:00

wow! That's,

1:09:03

gosh, there's a lot of spooky

1:09:05

things, hey? So you,

1:09:07

did you hold a funeral after his

1:09:10

yeah. So I had through the 4

1:09:12

week period deactivated social media and really kind

1:09:14

of climbed into a hole, um,

1:09:16

which wasn't, you know. I

1:09:19

have a really close group of friends, and,

1:09:21

and it can, it's not uncommon for me to

1:09:23

go out of communication with other friends

1:09:25

for a long period of time, and so it

1:09:27

didn't seem weird to everybody, but at that point

1:09:29

I reactivated my social media and made a post about

1:09:31

Bill. And, as a part of,

1:09:34

I really wanted to, before, the

1:09:36

only way I was going to make a public post about

1:09:38

it before him

1:09:40

being found was if I could get a fundraiser

1:09:43

up and running for Search and Rescue. Thank

1:09:45

you. Not for me for search and rescue

1:09:47

because the next thing everyone is like, what can I do to help? And

1:09:49

that was what I wanted to put all of my energy into

1:09:52

And so I hadn't gotten the opportunity to get the

1:09:54

fundraising up and running before he was found,

1:09:56

but I did Get

1:09:59

it up and running right when he was found

1:10:01

and so we I put out a

1:10:03

post about him being The

1:10:06

story like in in a nutshell what

1:10:08

happened and that he had died

1:10:10

and that he was found And then

1:10:13

please donate to my local fire department social

1:10:15

rescue, which was instrumental part and not

1:10:17

only Rescuing his friend,

1:10:20

but for weeks looking

1:10:22

for bill and then also part of the initial

1:10:24

recovery or the final recovery

1:10:27

of his body. And we raised a significant

1:10:30

amount of money that was able to find

1:10:32

such water rescue and another

1:10:34

drone for the fire department. Um,

1:10:37

and then. Even since then, my

1:10:39

brother, uh,

1:10:41

joined the fire department and

1:10:43

has been a big part of that as well. And

1:10:46

then I, on a different capacity,

1:10:48

have joined the fire department in

1:10:50

the fundraising arm of the fire department.

1:10:52

Yeah, so it's, um, it's all been,

1:10:55

you know, for me and, and my healing

1:10:57

has been very much driven by

1:11:00

volunteer work. And that

1:11:02

has been a big part of how

1:11:05

I am healing from, um, So

1:11:09

not just that part, but also

1:11:11

just recently volunteered

1:11:13

with Camp Aaron. I don't know if you're familiar with

1:11:15

that organization. So Camp

1:11:17

A. Yeah.

1:11:19

Camp Erin. E R I

1:11:20

Aaron is a camp for grieving kids,

1:11:22

so, uh, they could have lost

1:11:24

a parent, or a sibling,

1:11:26

and it could be in any realm of that. And

1:11:30

they're all over the U. S. I don't know if they're international.

1:11:32

I feel like there might be some international camps,

1:11:34

but it's pretty amazing. And so I, just a

1:11:36

couple of weeks ago, with my boyfriend,

1:11:39

um, volunteered at Camp Aaron

1:11:42

as a teen camp counselor.

1:11:46

and what

1:11:47

It was amazing, um,

1:11:50

Part of my healing journey and

1:11:52

also it was really amazing to share it with

1:11:54

the new guy in my life. He

1:11:57

hasn't lost a partner, but he lost his

1:11:59

dad recently and So

1:12:02

he wanted to be a part of he wanted

1:12:04

to get into volunteering I want to be a part of it and he didn't

1:12:06

even hesitate It's like yep I want to do this and

1:12:09

it was a pretty great experience to share with him

1:12:11

and just amazing to be a part of these

1:12:13

that's amazing.

1:12:15

too, so

1:12:18

Yeah, I do. I mean, it's not quite to

1:12:20

the same extent, but I, I, I do some, um,

1:12:23

some volunteer stuff for a charity. It's called holding

1:12:25

and letting go. And it's a, it's

1:12:27

a two day, um, workshop,

1:12:29

so they don't stay overnight. They go Saturday and then the Sunday

1:12:32

and they offer support for parents or,

1:12:34

you know, carers and these, and, um,

1:12:37

only one of mine has done it so far that my middle

1:12:39

child didn't want to, but he, he got so much

1:12:41

from it. He went in. In two

1:12:43

days, he didn't want to go. Of course,

1:12:46

you know, who wants to go to this stuff? I didn't want to go

1:12:48

either, but he realized that he

1:12:50

wasn't, the universe hadn't picked on him.

1:12:52

You know, he wasn't the only person in the world

1:12:54

to lose a parent and it didn't

1:12:56

fix things. It didn't make it better. But I know

1:12:59

that we look at the community that we have, you

1:13:01

know, look how we create community around our trauma.

1:13:03

And for children to be able to do that as well. What a gift.

1:13:06

Um, I've just actually sent an

1:13:08

email to a young young man

1:13:10

whose dad took his life when he was seven.

1:13:13

Um, and he set up an amazing

1:13:15

charity and I'm talking to him about coming on actually

1:13:17

because I think for So

1:13:20

much of healing can be done by helping others. There's the

1:13:22

wonderful term grief sharper, which one of my,

1:13:24

um, I think it was Canadian Widow actually said grief

1:13:26

sharper. And it's that if you can hold out your hand

1:13:29

and just offer it to somebody else who is suffering,

1:13:32

it doesn't have to be the same suffering as you. And it doesn't mean

1:13:34

that, Your suffering doesn't exist

1:13:36

anymore, but you're, you just, if each

1:13:38

of us just holds out that hand and give somebody a

1:13:40

little bit of a leg up, well, it

1:13:43

doesn't make it better, but it makes it more bearable.

1:13:46

Um, and I, I think volunteering

1:13:48

actually and fundraising, I raised money for,

1:13:50

we have the RNLI over here, which

1:13:52

is staffed entirely by volunteers

1:13:55

and they will be the first port of call in a, at a sea

1:13:57

rescue. So for them,

1:14:00

you know, to. To do that as

1:14:02

your job, to go out. And one of, I went

1:14:04

to met them and thank them. And there was a

1:14:06

young guy that couldn't come and meet me because he'd been so

1:14:08

traumatized by the whole thing. Like, and

1:14:10

they do that for free. I, people,

1:14:13

people are amazing. They really are amazing.

1:14:16

Now tell me about your boyfriend. Just quickly.

1:14:18

Tell me about your

1:14:19

Uh, he's, he's, if,

1:14:21

if the world designed a man that was the

1:14:23

exact opposite of Bill in every

1:14:25

way, this is the guy, and I absolutely

1:14:27

love that about him. Bill

1:14:30

and I's relationship. No,

1:14:32

want to clone. You don't want to clone, do you?

1:14:33

and he was his own person,

1:14:35

and I am not replacing him. I want

1:14:38

him, I want that part of my life to be this,

1:14:40

this really kind of different

1:14:42

part of my life, and this is a new part, and

1:14:45

I am not the same human that I was at 20,

1:14:47

and I'm not the same human today at 43

1:14:49

as I was when I was 40, because

1:14:52

I've had this massive experience happen to

1:14:54

me, and so, um, So

1:14:56

this, the new guy is

1:14:59

just perfect for me right now and it's

1:15:01

very fun and

1:15:04

exciting and, and in a

1:15:06

different way. It's not an exciting in a we're

1:15:08

going whitewater rafting kind of way. It's an exciting

1:15:10

in a we love e

1:15:12

don't do that, no. Does he do,

1:15:14

does he do any big, any sports?

1:15:16

golf,

1:15:17

Good.

1:15:17

is, yes,

1:15:19

golf is fairly safe, he can play golf, we'll allow

1:15:21

golf.

1:15:22

e biking together, which is super fun.

1:15:24

Um, it's a great outlet for me to

1:15:26

get that little bit of, you know, adventurous

1:15:29

spirit that I have still in me,

1:15:31

but it's very safe. And so

1:15:34

that's one of our, uh, activities together

1:15:36

too. And, um, and

1:15:38

he's surrounded by really amazing

1:15:40

I'm really pleased.

1:15:41

I think is so cool. I like. His,

1:15:44

uh, mother and grandmother are both widowed,

1:15:46

and just strong, amazing women,

1:15:49

and I can see that he probably

1:15:52

was put into my life for that reason, and I was

1:15:54

put into his life because he's surrounded by women like that,

1:15:57

so, um, yeah, it's,

1:15:59

it's fun, and exciting, and he,

1:16:01

and

1:16:02

I think that this idea that because

1:16:04

you have lost the love of your life, because you've

1:16:06

lost your husband, that you are then going

1:16:08

to be alone forever. That's

1:16:11

really frightening too. Especially you two have been with him

1:16:13

for half of your life. You know, The idea

1:16:15

of then going, you

1:16:17

probably felt like me, like there's no way I'll ever be with

1:16:19

anybody else. I'll be alone for the rest. I don't

1:16:21

want anybody else. And then somebody came into

1:16:23

my world who made it better and brighter

1:16:26

and safer and happier. And I

1:16:28

battled so much with the moral implications

1:16:31

of does this mean I don't love Ben? Does this mean

1:16:33

I'm betrayed? And actually I'm not, I'm

1:16:36

not because you're right. That he was a part

1:16:38

of my life, an enormous, wonderful, vibrant,

1:16:40

strong part of my life. And I wouldn't change

1:16:42

that for anything. But I'm not the

1:16:44

same person I was at 20 when I met Ben, and

1:16:47

I'm certainly not the same person I was at 37 when

1:16:49

I lost him. So you

1:16:51

are allowed to be happy again. And I think

1:16:53

when I speak to people and they have, they've accepted

1:16:56

that they're allowed to be happy again, that's when

1:16:58

the really, the real healing happens. And I'm

1:17:00

really, really pleased that you've met this guy and

1:17:02

tell him from the widow representative

1:17:06

that, um, thank you. Because when

1:17:08

people treat the tribe with care, it

1:17:10

then he got, he has really great role models

1:17:12

for that, so he was really well equipped

1:17:14

for it too. Yeah,

1:17:16

it's, um, everyone's all happy

1:17:19

for me, which is amazing because, you

1:17:21

know, I don't have to contend with. I didn't

1:17:23

have kids with Bill. I didn't

1:17:25

have to contend with, you know, I can't

1:17:27

imagine dating with children

1:17:29

and having lost their dad. That would be

1:17:32

terrifying. So, my world

1:17:34

and my circumstances were

1:17:35

I'm glad in a way when we're young, I

1:17:38

think if, you know, God forbid if

1:17:40

it were to happen now, trying to explain

1:17:43

to teenagers that mummy might have

1:17:45

a new interest in her life. I

1:17:48

think when they're younger, the innocence is helpful, if

1:17:50

I'm honest. Oh,

1:17:53

well, Audrey, it has been a pleasure. Just glorious

1:17:56

to talk to you and I feel

1:17:58

this real camaraderie with you because

1:18:00

I, you know, what I felt

1:18:02

and know so few people know that feeling

1:18:05

and I can't help but feel connected to

1:18:07

you because of that. And I really am

1:18:09

so grateful that you came on to talk to me because

1:18:11

what you've done for me is given me a gift here. You've

1:18:13

shared your story, which has made

1:18:16

me feel a little bit better. Less alone in

1:18:18

my circumstances, and I am so

1:18:20

glad that Bill was found in the end. Um,

1:18:22

I wish the circumstances had been different, but I

1:18:25

am glad that you got to make peace with

1:18:27

what had happened, and it's,

1:18:30

yeah, there's no way about it. It's still a horrible,

1:18:33

traumatic shit

1:18:35

situation, but I'm, I admire

1:18:37

you so much. I think that you're,

1:18:39

Yeah. And I, I just You

1:18:41

know, I listened to your story when I was on

1:18:43

my way to visit my boyfriend

1:18:46

and it's like when I got to his house

1:18:48

and tried to explain why I was like emotional

1:18:51

and it was like there and then I want

1:18:53

to share with somebody like oh my god this was the same

1:18:55

and this was the same and this was the same but

1:18:57

it's like people don't understand that.

1:19:01

Have you heard Lori episode?

1:19:03

Lori Meeber? So, um, I

1:19:05

will try and remember to send you a link to it because

1:19:07

there's a lot of episodes I know. Um,

1:19:09

and hers is very. Very similar

1:19:12

to yours, very, very similar. So

1:19:14

approach with caution, but she's

1:19:16

an incredible woman and I think that you might

1:19:18

like to hear her story. So it's L O R E, don't

1:19:20

ask me to spell her surname, but I will try and get a link

1:19:22

sent to you so you can

1:19:23

and there was one on

1:19:25

um, for now, I'm

1:19:26

I don't remember what her name was but

1:19:28

her Husband died in a kayaking

1:19:31

on a lake Yeah

1:19:34

Oh my god, it's just If

1:19:38

they could all just stick to playing Snap. Snap

1:19:40

and, you know, going

1:19:41

Yeah, I mean,

1:19:42

that would be helpful,

1:19:43

why I'm in the relationship. I'm in now It's

1:19:45

just nice and safe, but I mean, you

1:19:47

know, I, I do say that, but then

1:19:49

I have so many amazing widowed friends who've

1:19:52

lost a partner from cancer or,

1:19:54

you know, or

1:19:56

Oh, or what, or driving or,

1:19:58

you can't,

1:19:59

it's, there is, we, we

1:20:02

joke, but it doesn't discriminate, it doesn't

1:20:04

discriminate. Well, thank

1:20:07

you so much for taking the time to talk to

1:20:09

me today. And I hope you will stay in touch. You will

1:20:11

hear from me because you'll get your little package

1:20:13

in the post soon. So you'll get your little special

1:20:15

token from, um, little, your

1:20:17

little reward for coming on, but

1:20:19

you might, you know, reference from blue Peter badge. I

1:20:21

should do, I shouldn't use that on Americans that I won't

1:20:24

work, but for now, You take

1:20:26

care of yourself and you keep grabbing all the happiness

1:20:28

life throws your way and I wish you a

1:20:31

peaceful and a happy day. Existence,

1:20:35

at least for a little

1:20:35

to you.

1:20:38

And for everybody else who's listening out there,

1:20:40

um, this has been a tricky one. It's been

1:20:42

an emotional one. Um, I'm here. If

1:20:44

you want me, you know where to find me Instagram or

1:20:46

my email, and I can pass any questions

1:20:49

you might have to Audrey as well. But for

1:20:51

all of you out there who are fighting the

1:20:53

good fight, um, we are with you, we, we,

1:20:55

we see you and, um, I'll

1:20:57

see, I'll be back with you next time. Take care for

1:20:59

now.