0:00

Wine and Crime contains graphic

0:02

and explicit content which may

0:04

not be suitable for some

0:06

listeners. Listener discretion is advised.

0:23

You are listening to Why They Cry

0:25

of The Podcast. Were two friends

0:27

chug sometimes why not

0:29

today chapter crime and

0:31

unleash their worst Minnesota

0:33

accent? Ah yeah, yeah

0:36

yeah. My name is

0:38

Amanda. By name is

0:40

Lucy. Yeah. Well. And this

0:42

week we do have a very

0:44

special fan pick. All though. Our

0:47

friend picker. Wants. To

0:49

remain anonymous Oh so you'll

0:51

just have to trust us.

0:54

Which. Is like asking you to trust the government

0:56

night or it's very easy. That's

0:58

how can you wanna do but we

1:01

swear. That. This was a

1:03

fan pick and are very

1:05

special. Fan picker has chosen

1:07

the topic of academia tourist

1:09

city is a year but

1:11

made very clear that they

1:13

did not want us to

1:15

cover school. Shootings which like thank

1:17

you. Yeah, I know that

1:19

what I'm cover my it is

1:21

much better than that. I.

1:23

Have a case. It's.

1:26

Quite dark. And it's

1:28

technically a school shooting, but

1:30

it doesn't involve children and

1:33

co. Soldiers. Called a

1:35

a workplace shooting Will call it a

1:37

workplace shooting will take in more take

1:39

it. My case is very also very

1:42

dark but unconventional today so were you

1:44

know we're going off for got off

1:46

script a bet. Gone. Off book.

1:48

I'm okay with that. Yeah, I'm okay with

1:51

it. I'm not going to say it'll be

1:53

a fun episode. He didn't

1:55

he didn't but and will be an informative

1:57

episode Bad. I can promise we'll try. The

2:00

darnedest. Yeah, it's.

2:02

Also pretty funny because

2:04

the our are anonymous.

2:06

Fan picker of recommended the

2:08

pairing today be a pint

2:11

glass full of vodka. Look

2:13

up the subways I found

2:15

deeply relate a bullet. Also.

2:18

Hilarious. but it's one pm as

2:20

we record this on a Friday

2:22

as the crow flies. A

2:24

success and body the simply cannot handle

2:26

that but the sick at be thinking

2:29

about like. What's the

2:31

beverage of choice for educators? The

2:33

not. I mean. I

2:35

wondered if there were like statistics about that

2:37

and I started. you know, taken? Little

2:39

ah through the internet to find

2:42

out and while I didn't really

2:44

find. That specific

2:46

answer I did find

2:48

a very. Informative and

2:51

hilarious blog posts on

2:53

board teachers.com. Essa

2:56

outlining quote The Ultimate drink

2:58

pairing list for every stressful

3:00

teaching. Situation. Oh

3:02

okay, I know we have a lot

3:05

of teachers who listen, including in my

3:07

own sister. I actually say astley so

3:09

I get a breeze through. The

3:11

Service These recommendations very

3:14

quickly. Question Yet I'm sure you'll

3:16

get to it. I've sir, I will.

3:18

Is there a distinction between like, Kindergarten.

3:21

First second grade teacher is and like.

3:24

College professors, I'm. Know

3:26

but I think the scenarios

3:29

will make kind of clear.

3:31

What sort of age group?

3:33

Or like the caliber of

3:35

educator? This. These. Fall

3:38

in and cat. So. For

3:40

instance, number one to pair

3:42

with reading parents. Emails They

3:44

recommend White Russian. A

3:46

guy is that you don't want to respond

3:49

very quickly, so drink this slowly and respond

3:51

after you've had some time to settle down.

3:53

Good advice. You

3:55

don't want to slam away resin. You don't'

3:58

You'll get got rot. Diarrhea. Ah, but number

4:01

two: for a new student they recommend a

4:03

rum and Coke that has the entire balance

4:05

of your room is about to change. It

4:07

could be good that you could add a

4:09

little more coke, it could be a disaster

4:11

and then you'll add a little more rum.

4:15

Ah, but number three for the

4:18

first sneeze of the school year

4:20

And rebel, Lemon Drop. Yeah.

4:22

Ah yeah. Yeah,

4:25

you need somethin' top of this. As

4:27

the weather changes, you can't go outside.

4:29

You hear that sound that makes your

4:31

whole body cringe. You know the sick

4:33

this is upon. You are muted out

4:35

with lysol and lemon drops. Lysol

4:38

and lemon. Ah kei ah.

4:40

Instead it's it's medicine. It.

4:43

Is. Ah, Before the moment you get

4:45

home, crack an ice cold beer is what

4:47

they recommend. The days

4:49

could be long and you need something to

4:51

just sit with and zip during your reruns

4:53

on Netflix as you pass out on the

4:55

couch. Honey preach. That.

4:57

Is that's true for any job? It

5:00

really is. There something so satisfying.

5:02

About the occasional ice cold beer.

5:04

The end of a long day. Number. Five

5:06

for the night. You don't

5:09

have degraded margarita as baby

5:11

ssssss that airs perfectly with

5:13

Taco Tuesday at Everyone knows

5:15

we need. Our Mexican take

5:17

out for yourself! Love Than

5:19

vs. Of number Six

5:21

assists. Wednesday's was as I

5:23

guess or has a threat

5:26

se si situations verses smack

5:28

dab in the middle of

5:30

the week. Yeah, for Wednesday's

5:32

they recommend Straight Up Fireball.

5:34

Ah, I also feel like

5:37

all the activities were on

5:39

Wednesdays. Yes, they were fuckin'

5:41

field trips. Yeah. Like

5:43

always on Wednesdays, Sealed. Day.

5:46

So. Annoying. Why sit? there was

5:48

a suffix always something on a Wednesday

5:50

and right in the middle and also

5:53

my grandma highly in that used to

5:55

call this are a little said of

5:57

and drink she loved Fireball that ah

5:59

this. The other get you back of

6:01

the game like some hot cinnamon shots

6:04

it will also and the thought of

6:06

two more days until Saturday for faculty

6:08

meetings. They recommend Bourbon Straight. Sets

6:11

of us. Who

6:14

are you trying to impress your a

6:16

faculty meeting? Yeah, faculty meetings can cause

6:18

any person to drink one flow. Poor.

6:20

Just for their existence. The rest of

6:22

the bottle is there for those people

6:24

that keep raising their hands that ask

6:26

the question. As his successor. Oh no, that would

6:28

be me is that. It was a dollar

6:31

would. I already right raised my hand

6:33

and ask the question. This episode. I.

6:35

Love it! For Friday

6:37

afternoon boss duty, they recommend a

6:39

Long Island Iced Tea. Versatility

6:42

of when I'm driving the bus.

6:44

The know it's like making sure

6:46

the students get on the right

6:48

boss in elementary school. Always

6:51

of the cutest thing on tic tac.

6:53

yesterday. It's a

6:55

fake bus. So. You have like

6:57

a couple of adults like in

6:59

they have like a them and

7:01

yellow ponchos and a bite. They

7:03

have a route around like the

7:05

neighborhood in a bike and then

7:07

kids get on the bus by

7:09

just pull in into their bikes

7:11

parade. Smells like a little a

7:13

bike with the kids to school.

7:15

That's cute. I like Sample. I

7:17

know there was like dozens of

7:19

I'm that's really. Cute than real.

7:21

Cute. Dangerous. Depends He couldn't

7:24

do it everywhere Know? But you know?

7:26

That's a fun idea. To. Commemorate

7:28

a day off from school. They recommend Red Bull

7:31

and vodka. Oh does he need to get up

7:33

off the couch? Be a human. But you need

7:35

a kick start and the coffee is that. Do

7:37

with it. Bring on the party waters! I

7:40

like of On to Red Bull here and

7:42

there. I do too. I did see when

7:44

I went to see Aqua I had a

7:46

double vodka Rebel and I just sifted throughout

7:48

the night and I felt like I was

7:50

on top of the world. I was the

7:52

Barbie girl. That's. What I was drinking

7:55

when he saw American authors. Oh My.

7:57

God. That's hilarious. It was not a thread

7:59

realize it was. Why

8:01

not one son? Is

8:04

that what you know? The one. You. Know

8:06

the one. Before the

8:08

lowest commercial. For

8:12

paper grading they recommend mum Mosley

8:14

or Lighting Refreshing about. Ruin your

8:16

day. You could start drinking them. Early, that

8:18

stack of papers looks way less terrible

8:20

after some bubbly and orange juice. Plus

8:22

there's the added bonus of Vitamin C

8:24

for your health. I. Agree with

8:27

all of this I do to they

8:29

recommend wine for mid terms like a

8:31

fine wine. The papers get better with

8:34

time mostly because you stop reading them

8:36

in. Just handout is like Oprah. To

8:43

ring in Spring Break. they recommend

8:45

Daiquiri. his opinion a lotta love

8:48

that. And. For the end of

8:50

school entirely they recommend Sangria. It reminds you

8:52

of all the good times, the sunshine and

8:54

friends. You don't feel bad about downing a

8:57

whole picture because. There's fruit, Ned, right? And

9:01

salads. Irish coffee is recommended

9:04

for Christmas break. The. When

9:06

the tape, there's a paper jam. In the

9:08

only copy or for the entire school they

9:11

recommend Yeager Barham. Ah,

9:15

Also, the don't know. Also.

9:18

But this little and you know that

9:20

that's the list. but I just thought

9:22

that was very informative. I love that.

9:24

Like I said, I'm not drinking a

9:26

pint glass of vodka, but I do

9:28

have a growth combination. of ah and

9:31

I smoke from Dunkin Donuts and

9:33

a. Sparkling. Blackberry,

9:35

Lemonade water that I can

9:37

rap star little. Is. The

9:39

Waterloo. I. Have a

9:42

simply spiked lie made blackberry

9:44

flavor? Are you kidding me?

9:46

Why are we like. Were.

9:49

Drinking is the same as winning.

9:51

Mine is yours. Have Busan it?

9:53

Yes. Faked? Yes. Site: Contains.

9:55

Alcohol? should we crack on three?

9:58

Yes, Wine. Two.

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thought in Iran. Tracks:

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on sometimes when I felt. Really bad.

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Yes, yes, speaking as like the

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right. Lucy is. What

15:46

is our background and psych and

15:48

your little. Your. Case for today.

15:51

For. Academia atrocities. I'm gonna go ahead

15:53

and say my case is the

15:55

sake because it is. Wild.

15:59

Sake! The epithet are

16:01

I I love it. Okay, So.

16:03

Why does little fool history?

16:06

little background with for like

16:08

academia is. Enroll Young.

16:11

So Academia refers to the life

16:13

community or world of teachers, schools,

16:16

and education. In the word Academia

16:18

is a latin as a son

16:20

of the word academy with the

16:22

I a Sussex suggesting a geographic

16:24

identities as like. A. Location:

16:27

It's like of a centralized

16:29

location. Sure. The. First known use

16:31

of the word was in May feel free later

16:33

than I would have thought had his. Reasons.

16:36

Yeah, Academia goes back to Plato

16:39

School of Philosophy, which was founded

16:41

approximately. Three. Hundred And Eighty

16:43

Five B C. L

16:45

a price even though. Exactly.

16:48

At ah. At a

16:50

place called Academia spelled with a

16:53

K, which was a literal school.

16:55

Oh okay. So. This this

16:57

this building served as a sanctuary

16:59

of Athena, the goddess of wisdom.

17:02

And it was a low key. is

17:04

a little north of Athens cured according

17:06

to my. Life. An Encyclopedia

17:08

Britannica. There had been an Olive

17:10

Grove, a park, and a gymnasium

17:12

sacred to the legendary addict hero

17:15

Academia S or heck, a D

17:17

Miss at the site. So we've

17:19

we've ever been able to escape

17:21

Pd in schools. Now we got

17:23

all of that nature. We got

17:25

exercise. Yup. says. That the

17:28

three away from academia exactly as

17:30

as as a i go read

17:32

and an olive groves. Oh my

17:35

God. Fucking pleasant. It really. Fucking

17:37

does. Find you a warm rock to

17:39

sit on it like a lizard and an olive.

17:41

Grove of I Love Southern myself on a

17:43

warm rock. When.

17:46

He gets to warm. Near. Side

17:48

by ten minutes if you have a long

17:50

island i see to keep cool true or

17:52

if you're loaded. Or to deal with

17:54

both. Duty then. You're. Good to

17:56

go! Yes! You. Are very

17:58

good to go so. That time

18:00

to school was a corporate

18:03

body organized for the worship

18:05

of the muses. Com Ancient

18:07

Greece was fucking ridiculous. My

18:10

Jam assess assess most scholars

18:12

and far from Plato's writing,

18:14

said instruction originally included it's

18:17

mass dialectics, natural science, and

18:19

preparation for statesmanship. And co.

18:22

The S A T's. Yeah.

18:24

The. Academy Clothes and Five Twenty

18:27

Eight see. Prize.

18:29

A man. The. When they haven't

18:31

heard to city and close sit

18:33

along with other pagan schools. Get.

18:36

Into the were religiosity of things

18:38

around the nine am so we

18:40

often hear. The. Words college and

18:43

university when discussing forms of higher

18:45

education. But what is the difference

18:47

between the two? Because there is

18:49

a difference. Okay, Glad you're

18:51

covering this cause I am curious. So

18:54

colleges tend to be smaller and focus

18:56

on a specialized field of study. Like.

19:00

It with a at a university there

19:02

might be different colleges. Oh

19:05

okay. College of Fine

19:07

Arts Colleges is under.

19:09

The umbrella of a broader

19:11

university. So like the University

19:13

of Minnesota College of. The.

19:16

And is this. Exact School

19:18

of Business. Yeah, Galore.

19:20

You could just have our college. Like

19:23

Nctc, just smaller.

19:27

More. Focus on Certain shit. So

19:29

there are also different types of

19:31

policies such as liberal arts colleges,

19:33

vocational colleges, community colleges, and specifically

19:35

designated colleges forces specific student population.

19:38

So that would be what I'm

19:40

referring to under the yes University

19:42

umbrella. Because universities offer

19:44

both undergraduate and graduate degrees,

19:46

most of them also tend

19:48

to serve as research institutions.

19:53

So. yeah colleges to a little

19:55

bigger offer a little more and then

19:57

have different departments and colleges.

20:01

Sure. The oldest existing

20:03

and continually operating education institution

20:05

in the world is

20:08

the University of Carooine.

20:11

Carooine. Not at all what

20:13

I would have guessed because I've never heard of it.

20:16

I was going to assume it was something like Oxford,

20:18

but nope. We'll kind of

20:20

get to, well, we won't get to

20:22

Oxford. But Oxford is pretty fucking old

20:24

too. Is this University

20:27

of Tatooine, whatever you just said, that's

20:30

a planet in Star Wars. Anyway,

20:32

is that like an ancient Roman

20:34

or Greek institution?

20:36

It's Moroccan. Moroccan. Fucking

20:39

cool. So

20:41

it's also known as the University

20:43

of Al Carooine. Okay.

20:47

I can't, I'm sorry about the pronunciation.

20:49

It was founded in 859, Christ Even.

20:54

Wow. That's some year

20:57

one shit. So

21:01

it's located in Fez, Morocco. It's

21:03

a religious school and was founded

21:05

by Fatima Al Firi with an

21:08

associated school. The oldest

21:11

known university in Europe, which you

21:13

might think is Oxford, but

21:16

it's the University of Bologna.

21:19

Oh, Bologna. Bologna. Delicious.

21:22

It's in Italy. It was founded in 1088. Damn.

21:26

The oldest university in the Americas

21:29

is located in the Dominican Republic

21:31

and at a St. Thomas Aquinas

21:33

University. Cool. It's

21:37

one of those words I read more than

21:40

I say. I actually have no idea

21:42

how to say that. Aquinas. I think it's

21:44

Aquinas or Aquinas. I feel like I've heard it

21:46

both ways. Someone's screaming.

21:48

I'm sorry. We are not

21:50

academics. Well, Lucy is way more than me, but

21:53

we're doing our best. Aquinas.

21:56

Aquinas. Aquinas. So

21:59

That school is a sad. Published in Fifteen Thirty

22:01

Eight by Pope. Paul the

22:03

third. Classic. Paul. The.

22:06

Earliest American institutions and I

22:08

will say. Institutions and what

22:10

is now the United States. Ah

22:13

of Higher Learning Or the four

22:15

year colleges of Harvard founded and

22:17

sixteen Thirty Six William and Mary.

22:19

Hundred and sixteen Ninety three, Yale

22:21

found it. And seventy seven and.

22:23

A prince and founded And seventeen Forty

22:25

six. And. Then Kings College,

22:27

which is now known as Columbia and

22:30

Seventeen Fifty Four. I

22:32

think we knew that Harvard was the first. Yeah.

22:35

This one. We. Talked about that

22:37

before for some reason I don't

22:39

remember why, but whatever. Oh. Arriving.

22:42

Oh, you're right. Yes, Okay, those

22:44

are the oldest dorms. Most.

22:48

Of these early American colleges

22:50

were founded by religious dominates

22:52

denominations domination set to oath.

22:55

Yes, I am he betty of

22:57

them at later became universities. And

23:00

American colleges and universities imitated

23:02

German models of education, which

23:04

combined suppression ideal of academic

23:07

freedom with the native tradition

23:09

of educational opportunity for the

23:11

many. It's it's.

23:14

Free. It's free thinking. Ideas are

23:16

free flowing. Also, we want

23:18

as many. White. Men

23:20

as possible to have access

23:22

to these institutions. Fair. It

23:24

is fun. Facts: In Eighteen

23:26

Forty Harvard University only costs

23:28

seventy five dollars a year.

23:30

To attend, Order what that is with. Inflation,

23:33

It's still not nearly as expensive

23:35

as it is now, but. With

23:38

always engines. With. Inflation That

23:40

would be two thousand six hundred

23:42

and Sixty eight dollars and seventy

23:44

seven cents. A year. Call

23:47

saw saw that now I thought

23:49

of like a small house. Per

23:51

year. Yeah. Getting

23:54

in the easy by? yeah. I.

23:56

Say that like I have applied. Oh My.

23:59

God. We have would the issue and

24:01

that Iran I. Don't like

24:03

any of our honorary degree. Yeah, what?

24:05

Like it's hard we're going to Elle Woods

24:07

the fuck out of this assessed. At. The

24:11

growth of schools in the Us was prompted

24:13

okay at it. This is really interesting. was

24:15

prompted by the moral act Moral M O

24:17

R R I L l not like the

24:19

like on name. It's. A name? yeah

24:21

care. Of Eighteen Sixty

24:23

Two. So this Access pass on

24:25

mother say July Second. Eighteen Sixty

24:27

Two. Of making. It

24:29

possible for the states to establish

24:32

public colleges funded by the development

24:34

or sale of associated federal

24:36

land grants. Interesting. Okay, that's how

24:39

they got the money to. Saville.

24:42

Lies. And build these schools.

24:44

Yep, so over ten million acres

24:46

provided by these grants were taken

24:48

from the native American media, which

24:51

is it's own problem or. These.

24:53

You colleges gave opportunities to the

24:55

working class by emphasizing agriculture and

24:57

mechanical arts so I think there

24:59

was is less like private money

25:01

involved. Sure that people could afford

25:03

to go there and then those

25:05

tended to be a more. Rural

25:08

areas More rural. he

25:10

focused educational tracks. Major.

25:13

University such as Nebraska, Clemson

25:16

and Cornell were chartered. Started

25:18

as land grant schools, the

25:20

second of Moral Act of

25:22

eighteen Ninety was aimed at

25:24

former Confederate States and sought

25:27

to rectify. racial discrimination is

25:29

the purpose, but of course

25:31

at this time were separate

25:33

but equal time Yet. Said.

25:36

This adds required states to establish

25:38

separate, separate land grant institutions for

25:40

black students or to demonstrate that

25:43

admissions were not restricted by race.

25:46

So. Is this how.

25:49

some I'm H B C A B

25:51

C use were established yet. Of

25:54

actually yeah because I knew that H

25:56

B C is worse. Actually, born out

25:58

of segregation. But

26:00

I yeah, this is interesting. I

26:02

know I didn't or I had not

26:05

really thought that to like how those

26:07

were darted but that also makes sense

26:09

why you have some a really huge.

26:12

Schools. Like Nebraska that are

26:14

in kind of in the. Middle.

26:17

And or I don't want to say the middle of

26:19

nowhere but sick are the very rural but they're lay

26:21

off. Really well

26:23

established, Excellent! Finally

26:25

unhindered schools yeah so that when

26:27

out of him like Penn State

26:30

is as gives me like similar

26:32

vibe. To that the University in Nebraska.

26:34

Because one say colleges in the middle

26:36

of Amish country like you are not

26:38

close to Philly or Pittsburgh. you're not

26:41

on like a major city in Pennsylvania,

26:43

so I would imagine that this might

26:45

have also been built out of one

26:47

of these land grant. Could. Have

26:49

been about factor of the land grant

26:51

Main yeah. That was

26:53

kind of club. A specific

26:56

question I had was. I

26:58

didn't actually know why didn't know it?

27:00

Tenure was. Do. You know

27:02

it. Tenure is. I mean, I only know it's. Like.

27:04

Through the context of like

27:07

it's a contract essentially. That's.

27:09

Like how I've understood it. Like.

27:11

If you are a tenured perk professor

27:13

your life, you have a contract that

27:15

you can like practice. For.

27:17

X amount of years. Yeah.

27:19

It's got it's like indefinitely. I

27:21

think the yell at some have

27:23

like actual and dates. Okay,

27:26

idol yeah, a better fired as well.

27:29

I've heard of such as if you

27:31

said your, that is exactly. That's exactly

27:33

what it is. Yeah, no academic tenure

27:35

isn't it? Is. This is

27:38

it. An indefinite appointment

27:40

Med can only be

27:42

terminated for cause or

27:44

under extraordinary circumstances such

27:46

as financial difficulty and

27:48

program discontinuation or intense

27:50

scandal. With. So

27:52

you know you have absolutely extraordinary

27:54

circumstance, right? The. Modern concept

27:56

of tenure In the Us Higher education

27:58

originated with the night. 1840

28:00

statement of principles on academic freedom and

28:03

tenure. The principal purpose

28:05

of tenure is to safeguard

28:07

academic freedom. So this

28:09

way tenure provides the conditions for

28:11

faculty to pursue potentially

28:14

controversial research and innovation and

28:16

draw evidence-based conclusions free from

28:19

corporate or political pressure. So

28:21

it makes it so that the school can't be

28:23

like, hey- You're fired because you're looking

28:26

into or supporting XYZ. Yeah,

28:28

or like we get money from Philip

28:30

Morris. You can't you

28:33

know research how cigarettes

28:35

affect lung health or

28:37

something like that. We're seeing cases

28:41

right now coming out in

28:43

regards to like this exact protection

28:45

that you're talking about in regards

28:47

to professors that are

28:49

speaking out like in support of

28:52

Palestine and Palestinians being protected

28:54

by similar laws. Huh.

28:58

Mm-hmm. That makes sense. I mean,

29:00

yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's if

29:02

I'm sure that because that is such a

29:04

large conversation right now that's like

29:07

very much in the news, but I would

29:09

have to imagine that anytime there's like a

29:11

huge political disruption or

29:13

you know like social justice

29:15

issue. I mean, I

29:17

would imagine that there were similar you

29:20

know uses of these laws of protection

29:22

around Black Lives Matter and

29:24

when George Floyd was murdered and all you

29:26

know, like it protects these teachers for their

29:29

individual stances or you know research

29:31

or support of political

29:34

or you know, otherwise academic movements

29:36

outside of their institution so they

29:38

can't just be fucking fired for

29:41

like being aligned with something that maybe the college

29:44

hasn't made a stance on or that the college

29:46

itself isn't aligned with which I think is an

29:48

important protection. Yeah,

29:50

it's it's it's intended to promote

29:53

stability and also academic

29:55

freedom. Well, right. I mean if we're

29:58

encouraging free thinking and,

30:01

you know, intellectual debate

30:03

and conversation, then essentially

30:06

limiting a professor's free speech and saying

30:08

and shutting that shit down would make

30:10

no fucking sense. Mm hmm. Exactly.

30:13

Interesting. Critics say that it can lead to

30:15

a lack of accountability, meaning

30:17

like a professor, if they had tenure, could just

30:19

say whatever the fuck they wanted to say and

30:22

no one can do anything about it. But, you

30:24

know, I think the good outweighs the bad for

30:26

the most part. Well, we're always going

30:28

to exploit free speech, you know,

30:31

human beings who are fucking shitty, which

30:33

is there are many, you know, it's

30:36

like this doesn't give you free

30:38

license to just like go be like

30:41

bigoted and racist and like action and

30:44

cause real harm. Mm hmm. But

30:46

yeah, that could you could get into some

30:48

tough situations, I think,

30:50

because it's like who's to who

30:53

is the deciding factor on like what's protected

30:55

as free speech and what is like, you know,

30:57

harmful rhetoric, you know, it's like pornography, like it

30:59

could be hard to describe it, but like, you

31:02

know, it when you see it, but then you

31:04

have to if you have to defend it or

31:06

prosecute it in like a court, then

31:08

you have to define it. Right. Mm

31:11

hmm. That would be I'm so glad we

31:14

don't work in fucking academia. Yeah. Or

31:16

law. Oh, my God. Can

31:20

you imagine if I were your lawyer?

31:24

Oh, my God. What were Corey and I

31:26

watching the other day? We were

31:29

it was something about like, was it the

31:31

traders that you want to hire Fader as your

31:33

lawyer because same. Yes. We

31:35

were watching Oppenheimer. And it

31:37

was the guy who was going to press

31:39

a button to push the

31:41

the test, the test, just the test bomb.

31:44

Mm hmm. And Corey was

31:46

like, can you imagine like being on this research

31:48

team and living through this and like just juggling

31:50

all the ethics of the whole and the politics

31:52

of the whole situation? And I was like, dude,

31:55

I was on jury duty and

31:57

I almost broke. Yeah. No,

31:59

no, I can't. I can't.

32:02

Not equipped. I can't,

32:04

no. It would be too

32:06

heavy. I would shatter. I would burst

32:08

into dust. Okay,

32:11

about 24% of faculty members in

32:13

U.S. colleges and universities held full-time

32:15

tenured appointments as of fall of

32:17

2021. However, this has gone down

32:19

compared to 39% in the fall of 1987. Mm-hmm.

32:25

Most U.S. colleges, university faculty

32:27

members held part and full-time

32:29

non-tenure track appointments. So, if

32:32

you're employed on a non-tenure track, that

32:34

would make you officially

32:37

like a visiting professor. Right. Or a

32:39

lecturer. You don't have the same protections.

32:42

Or a instructor. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost

32:44

like you're, yeah, you're like a contract

32:47

worker and they could end your contract

32:49

kind of at any time. That

32:52

is my interpretation, yes. Mm-hmm.

32:55

Okay, so that's my background. And now

32:58

I have. Yeah, that was really interesting. I'm glad

33:00

you covered that stuff. Same. And now I'm scared.

33:03

Yeah, you should be. Great. So,

33:06

the fan picker anonymous

33:08

did kind of want this case

33:10

to be covered, but they were like, uh, actually, that

33:12

might be too dark. Mm-hmm. But

33:14

I'm gonna cover it anyway because... All right,

33:16

go off, queen. Kind

33:19

of crazy. Okay. On

33:21

February 12, 2010,

33:23

at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, is

33:26

this ringing a bell? Uh, I

33:28

think so. Is

33:30

this what's-her-face? Well, Biology

33:33

Professor Dr. Amy Bishop

33:36

taught her anatomy and neuroscience,

33:39

neurosciences class. According to

33:41

a student in that class, she seemed,

33:43

quote, perfectly normal during

33:45

the lecture. After

33:48

that class, she attended a biology

33:50

department faculty meeting in room 369,

33:53

nice, on the third floor of

33:55

the Shelby Center for Science and

33:57

Technology, which houses the U.A. Huntsville

34:00

Biology and Mathematics Department. I

34:03

have a picture of the building on the drive but you don't

34:05

have to look at it yet because the other pictures are of

34:07

her and she just looks like a... the hair!

34:10

Just go look at the hair. Okay.

34:16

Her haircut reminds me of that

34:18

short like King in

34:20

Shrek. Farquaad. Yeah.

34:25

Oh my gourd. Of the literal short

34:27

King. We stand

34:30

a short King. Oh yeah

34:32

yikes. This is the

34:35

most Lord Farquaad haircut I've ever fucking

34:37

seen in my life. No! Like...

34:41

No honey. That

34:43

is not it. Well

34:46

she only gets worse from here. A

34:50

what? A fuck-ass Bob. What's

34:52

that? I ended up on

34:55

fuck-ass Bob side of TikTok where people

34:57

are defining what is...

35:00

what becomes... what

35:02

is classified as a fuck-ass Bob and what

35:04

is just a Bob? Just like a shitty Bob?

35:06

Like I would have speak to the manager Bob. Is fuck-ass

35:09

a good qualifier? Or is it

35:11

like... I think it depends. I know...

35:15

from what I understand and you know I

35:17

am... I am whiteness

35:20

personified so I am not the

35:22

one to be reiterating this information.

35:24

I could easily have misunderstood

35:27

this but from what I understand

35:29

a fuck-ass Bob is like boss

35:31

bitch like this Bob will fuck

35:33

you up like sassy like

35:36

amazing curated like

35:40

fuck-ass Bob okay this this Bob

35:42

is like a fucked up Bob

35:44

this is not this is not

35:47

it it would you even call it a but

35:49

it's so wide I know but it's still that's

35:52

a Bob haircut it's just really

35:54

horrifying yeah it's not great

35:56

which is befitting of this person it

35:58

sure is Yeah,

36:01

so okay Everything

36:03

seems perfectly normal According

36:05

to witnesses 12 or 13 people

36:07

attended the meeting which was described

36:09

as an ordinary faculty meeting Everything's

36:12

normal. There was no reason

36:15

to be suspicious of what

36:17

happened next Oh God, Amy

36:19

Bishop sat quietly at the meeting for 30 or 40

36:22

minutes Good

36:24

amount of time That's why

36:26

they recommend bourbon with your faculty meeting. Yeah,

36:29

this happened. Yeah Before

36:33

pulling out a Ruger p95 at

36:35

9 millimeter handgun just before 4

36:37

p.m in

36:40

the faculty meeting according

36:42

to one survivor She

36:44

quote got up suddenly took out

36:47

a gun and started shooting

36:49

at each one of us She

36:51

started with the one closest to her and

36:54

went down the row shooting her targets in

36:56

the head This wasn't

36:58

a random shooting around the room.

37:00

This was execution style. I have

37:02

goosebumps look. Oh my god Yeah,

37:06

well, it's just really Really

37:10

fucking gross After this

37:12

had fired several rounds Deborah

37:15

Moriarty the Dean of the University's grad

37:17

program and a biochemistry professor said

37:20

that Bishop pointed the gun at her and Pulled

37:23

the trigger but heard only

37:25

a click as her gun either jammed

37:28

or ran out of ammunition Oh my

37:30

god, I feel lightheaded She

37:33

described Bishop as initially appearing

37:35

angry and then following the

37:37

apparent weapon malfunction Perplexed

37:39

like she wasn't expecting that

37:42

Yeah, no It was then that

37:44

Moriarty and others in the room were able to

37:47

push Bishop out of the room and barricade the

37:49

door Bishop apparently then went

37:51

downstairs and hid the gun in

37:53

the second floor bathroom She

37:57

didn't have a permit for this gun at all She

38:00

apparently also called her husband and asked him to

38:02

pick her up at that point. Do

38:04

you think she told? Did he know? Unclear.

38:10

He he did not say that

38:12

she told him that she just shot a bunch

38:14

of people. OK, so I think

38:16

whether or not he knew, we don't

38:18

know, because he's not going to willingly give

38:20

that information. So there

38:23

was some testimony from their

38:25

neighbors that they saw Amy

38:28

and her husband like

38:30

leaving that morning with like duffel

38:32

bags. Oh my God. So

38:34

it's possible that he did help her

38:36

prepare for this. He said

38:39

later that she asked him if

38:41

she could borrow. It was his

38:43

gun, I believe. OK. And

38:45

asked him if he could take her to the

38:48

shooting range to learn how to use it. OK,

38:50

yeah. He he had taken her to a

38:52

shooting range in the weeks leading up to

38:54

this. Yeah, but it's not clear.

38:58

And he can't they can't prove that

39:00

he know there's enough plausible reliability, like

39:02

just wanting to go to the shooting

39:05

range and be taught how to shoot a

39:07

gun does not automatically give you full

39:10

insight that this is what she was planning.

39:12

Correct. So as

39:14

far as I know, he wasn't charged

39:16

for any collusion or anything. So

39:19

she was arrested just a few minutes later outside

39:21

the building. Shortly after her

39:23

arrest, Bishop was quoted as saying it

39:25

didn't happen. There's no way when

39:27

asked about the deaths of her colleagues,

39:29

Bishop replied, there's no way they're still

39:31

alive. Oh, she

39:33

also claimed that she didn't remember

39:36

doing it, but they weren't still

39:38

alive. I mean, did she just

39:40

have a complete there's premeditation because

39:42

she brought she went to learn

39:44

how to use the gun. We will

39:47

get to it because I'm just so

39:49

confused. This is not even the craziest

39:51

part of this story. My God. OK.

39:54

So at this point, Bishop

39:56

had killed three of her

39:58

colleagues, Gopi Padilla, chairman of

40:00

the Biology Department, Maria Raglin

40:02

Davis, Biology Professor, and Adriel

40:05

D. Johnson, Senior, a Biology

40:07

Professor. And then three

40:09

others were wounded. These were

40:13

Luis, Rogelio, Cruz Vera,

40:15

Joseph Leahy, and Stephanie

40:17

Monticeolo. Wow. Wow. So

40:21

the second part is- I mean,

40:24

frankly, it's a miracle that the

40:26

gun either jammed or- She

40:29

could have killed every person in that room. Everyone.

40:31

Everyone. Every- Makes

40:35

me fucking sick. It sounds- I mean, it seems

40:37

like that was her intention. Yeah. But like I

40:39

said, all of this is strange, but it gets

40:41

even weirder, and this is from the New York

40:43

Times. Several people

40:45

with connections to the university's Biology

40:47

Department warned that Dr. Bishop, who

40:49

was a neuroscientist with a Harvard

40:52

PhD, might have booby

40:54

trapped the science building with

40:56

some sort of herpes bomb,

40:58

police officials said- What? Designed

41:01

to spread the dangerous virus. Only

41:05

people who had worked with Dr. Bishop

41:07

would know that she had done work

41:09

with the herpes virus as a post-doctoral

41:11

student and had talked about

41:13

how it could cause encephalitis. Like

41:16

if inhaled, like if it had- in this-

41:19

it sounds like in this creation

41:21

that she made, would like vaporize

41:25

the virus so that it's

41:28

like inhalable? Yeah, I guess- And

41:31

then that could cause all of these other health issues?

41:34

Yeah. As well as possibly like expose your mouth

41:36

to herpes? Yeah, I

41:38

mean- So they

41:40

didn't find anything, but okay. So

41:42

the encephalitis, I would imagine, would

41:45

happen to your children? Oh,

41:47

right. Because I don't

41:49

think you can just get encephalitis. But

41:51

if you're carrying the virus and

41:53

then you can pass it

41:56

through like the birth? Yeah, it

41:58

could also- so it says- The

42:00

had also written an unpublished novel

42:02

proceed with also a novelist in

42:04

which a herpes like virus spreads

42:07

throughout the world, causing pregnant women

42:09

to miscarry. What? On Earth.

42:12

Self. Like I said, they didn't find

42:14

any such advice. But the these anxieties

42:16

that prompted these reports. Were.

42:18

Not entirely unfounded. Because.

42:21

It turns out Amy was. Not

42:24

well. So. Over the years

42:26

Doctor Bishop had shown evidence that

42:28

the smallest of sites could set

42:30

off a disproportionate and occasionally violent

42:33

reaction. According to numerous interviews with

42:35

colleagues and others who know her,

42:37

her life seem to the are

42:40

wildly between moments of cold fury

42:42

and scientific brilliance, between rage at

42:44

perceived slights and empathy for her

42:46

students. Yeah. This this

42:49

this individual is. Is

42:51

on well. Like you said, I mean that

42:53

is not an excuse and we are

42:55

now. Obviously we do not. Vilified.

42:57

People who are struggling with their mental health

42:59

but like this island. This is. Shocking.

43:02

There. Were many instances where people

43:04

could have and should have stepped

43:06

in and I'm gonna get to

43:08

sell fuck List Yeah we're like

43:11

we as a society needs as

43:13

fuck and take Bezel health issue

43:15

seriously but mostly because people with

43:17

on diagnosed. Or untreated. mental health issues

43:19

can be. A danger to

43:22

themselves, even. More than two others

43:24

are like it can happen. Oh

43:27

My. God. this is so fucking awful.

43:29

I know it's very dark. So.

43:32

Are these shootings took place? Ask

43:34

your doctor. Best have learned that

43:36

she had lost her long battles

43:38

again. academic tenure at the University.

43:40

Okay, so she was denied tenure

43:42

in March Two Thousand Nine. And.

43:45

Expected not to have her cheating

43:47

contracts renewed after March of Twenty

43:49

Ten and the shootings happened in

43:52

February of Twenty. So that was

43:54

like the triggering events. And

43:57

she had appealed the decision to the universe.

43:59

His administration. but her appeal was

44:01

denied. So she was expecting to lose her

44:03

job at the University of Alabama, like a

44:06

month later. Oh my God,

44:08

oh my God. So

44:10

I'll just kill a bunch of people who had

44:13

nothing to do with that decision. Other

44:15

staff. Yeah. I

44:18

can't. Yeah. But

44:20

these shootings were hardly the first time that she

44:22

had come to the attention of law enforcement because

44:24

of an outburst or a violent act. In

44:27

2002, she was charged with assault

44:29

after punching a woman in the

44:31

head at an international house

44:33

of pancakes in Peabody, Massachusetts. At

44:36

an IHOP? Not even a Waffle

44:38

House? No, a fucking IHOP. The

44:40

woman had taken the last booster

44:42

seat, and according to the police

44:45

report, Dr. Bishop demanded it for

44:47

one of her children, shouting, I

44:49

am Dr. Amy Bishop. Oh

44:52

my God. You don't get to don't you

44:54

know who I am about a booster seat

44:57

at an IHOP, bitch? Yeah. Like what the

44:59

fuck are you doing? Also, nobody

45:02

fucking knows who you are. And if

45:04

they did, nobody cares. And if

45:06

they did, that'd be more of a reason for

45:08

them to kick you out of that IHOP. Oh,

45:11

I didn't realize she had kids, and kids

45:13

young enough to need a booster

45:16

seat. That was in 2002. Yeah,

45:19

I don't know much about her kids. I

45:22

neglected to look into that, but. Oh

45:24

yeah, I guess this was 2002, but still. Bleh,

45:27

bleh. Yeah, in 1986, so this is

45:29

when Amy was 21 years old, and

45:34

her brother Seth was 18 years old. So

45:39

in 1986, she, okay, she was at home. She

45:45

had just gotten in a fight with her dad. Her

45:48

dad left. Her brother was

45:50

outside washing his car. Uh-huh.

45:54

And her mom was like downstairs in the kitchen.

45:57

Amy got pissed at her dad, went

45:59

upstairs. got a shotgun

46:02

out of her parents closet,

46:04

loaded it, fired

46:06

one round, like a

46:08

practice round, in her bedroom,

46:10

and it like hit the wall and she like

46:13

tried to cover it up with, she

46:15

like taped a book cover over it or something. Oh,

46:17

you've got to be kidding me. This is

46:19

so, it's like the poster in the basement

46:22

in the first season of Fargo. That's just

46:24

like he put over a hole in

46:26

the wall. Anyway, there's like three people that

46:28

watch that show that are like, yeah, I thought

46:30

about that too. Anyway, this is fucking stupid. This

46:32

is so stupid. I hate this. I hate this.

46:35

Then she went downstairs with

46:38

this 12 gauge shotgun and shot

46:41

her brother in the chest and

46:43

killed him. What? She

46:46

killed him. She put a gaping

46:48

hole in his left chest and tore

46:51

open his aorta and he

46:53

bled out in their kitchen in

46:56

front of their

46:58

mother. And when

47:00

the cops came, oh, that's not even the

47:02

weirdest part. Okay. So he

47:05

bled out in their kitchen in front of the

47:07

mother. Amy ran

47:09

out of the house with the shotgun, ran

47:12

down the street to a car dealership,

47:14

was walking around the car dealership lot

47:16

with the shotgun. With the gun? Okay.

47:19

This old guy comes out and was like, are

47:23

you okay? And she was like demanding a car.

47:25

I need

47:28

a car. Give me a car. She was

47:30

going to steal a car at gunpoint. She

47:32

said, I just got in a fight with

47:35

my husband. He's after me. I need

47:37

to get away. I need a car. That's what

47:39

she told the car, the guy at the car

47:41

dealership. And then like the cops picked her up,

47:43

brought her back to the house. The

47:45

mother testified that the shooting was accidental.

47:48

Well, she didn't even testify. She told

47:50

the cops that. So the cops

47:52

just took it as an

47:54

accident. They also did not

47:57

tie these two incidents together.

48:00

the car dealership and the shooting

48:02

of her brother. So wait, wait,

48:04

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

48:07

Are you, did she not get

48:09

arrested? She was taken into custody

48:11

and they were questioning her and then her mom

48:13

showed up at the cop shop

48:16

and was like. Cop shop. The cop shop and

48:18

was like, you're not answering any

48:20

more questions. This was an accident. I'm taking

48:22

her home. And so then the

48:24

police took her word for it. I'm

48:27

gonna come back to this. I am going

48:29

to fall the fuck out of my chair. Yeah.

48:32

So Amy Bishop was not charged with the

48:34

crime and the shooting was never fully investigated

48:36

by the police. Like I said, she and

48:39

her family said it was an accident and

48:41

the authorities accepted their version. Also

48:43

important to note, she is a white woman. Yes.

48:46

That tells you all you fucking need to

48:48

know. There's no way. I

48:51

mean, this fucking

48:53

makes my blood boil. A

48:55

black kid can't fucking wear

48:58

his hood up and have skills in his fucking

49:00

pocket, but this white woman can

49:02

kill her brother and then

49:04

go wave a gun

49:06

around at a car dealership and try to

49:08

steal a fucking car and have her white

49:10

mom come and say, no, no, no, no,

49:12

no. This has all been a huge misunderstanding

49:14

and then she's not charged. Yep. And

49:18

the cops came back to help them

49:20

clean up the blood in the kitchen and

49:22

they brought them, they brought the family food.

49:25

I'm gonna fucking throw up. So then in 1994, so this

49:27

is eight years later, she

49:30

and her husband were questioned in

49:32

a mail bomb plot. What?

49:36

They were making pipe bombs and

49:38

they mailed one of them to

49:40

a doctor at Harvard

49:42

where she obtained her PhD and

49:45

remained- She and her husband were doing this? Mm-hmm.

49:48

Okay, so he's also got a

49:51

fucking screw loose. Yeah. Whether

49:53

or not he knew that she

49:55

was going to kill her colleagues

49:57

in that particular situation, they were-

50:00

definitely aligned on

50:02

some of their like, at least political or

50:04

like personal ideation if they were doing this

50:06

shit together. You know, they remind

50:09

me of what, uh, what the fuck

50:11

was that family? And it's not just

50:13

her haircut, although her haircut looks like

50:15

the husband's haircut. I can't

50:18

with you remember on fucking haircut. A couple

50:20

years ago, there was like that family that had like 12

50:22

fucking kids that they kept chained up

50:25

in their house. And there was only

50:27

like one picture together in the pink

50:29

plaid at their wedding or whatever. Yeah.

50:31

And didn't like the one of the

50:33

daughters escape. Yes. Somehow one of

50:35

the daughters escaped and had a cell phone and

50:37

saved the rest of her siblings. Yes. Yes.

50:40

I remember that. So those

50:42

parents kind of remind me of Amy

50:44

and her husband. It's

50:46

a little bit because of the hair,

50:49

but also just because of this like

50:51

shared kind of conspiracy delusion adjacent

50:54

shit. Yes. So,

50:56

um, they were just

50:58

questioned about this plot

51:00

because I don't think that the

51:03

bomb was ever mailed. Don't really

51:05

know for sure. But she was

51:07

not charged with any

51:09

of these things except for the IHOP

51:11

incident where she was charged, but never

51:13

officially found guilty. So on

51:15

paper, none of this ever happened. No,

51:17

why? Because if she was charged, but

51:19

not found guilty, it could have like been taken

51:21

off of her record and then no school when

51:24

they're running background checks would

51:26

know about this. So her employers at the

51:28

University of Alabama did not know about them. I

51:31

want to puke. But

51:33

as for the people who knew

51:35

them, who knew her personally, her

51:38

mood swings and volatility were very

51:40

apparent. So here's another she

51:42

creates on her colleagues along the way. She

51:44

yelled at playing children. According

51:47

to her neighbors. She

51:49

rarely kept her opinions to

51:51

herself. She rejected criticism. She lied

51:53

on her resume. This is

51:56

kind of sounding like me. She

51:58

lied on her resume. Her scientific

52:00

work was not as impressive as

52:02

she made it seem, according to

52:05

independent neurobiologists, some of whom

52:07

said she would have been unlikely to

52:09

even get the opportunity to try for

52:11

tenure at major universities.

52:15

So she was just out of her fucking league

52:17

and she was completely

52:20

oblivious. Or

52:22

maybe she wasn't oblivious if she lied,

52:24

then she knew and just felt

52:27

entitled to access all of these

52:29

privileges. Yeah, oblivious, I guess, isn't

52:31

the right word. She's so far up

52:33

her own ass that she wouldn't take

52:35

no for an answer. That part,

52:38

that part. She was

52:40

known to have cyclical flip outs, as

52:42

one former student described them, that pushed

52:44

one grad student after another out of

52:46

her laboratory. Another incident

52:49

in 1996 caused her to lose her

52:51

job, well, caused her to not

52:53

have her contract renewed, which is basically losing her

52:55

job. When she was

52:57

not listed as the first author on

53:00

a paper, she collaborated on with at

53:02

least one other researcher at

53:04

Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in

53:06

Boston, which is affiliated with Harvard.

53:08

Okay. So this researcher said, quote,

53:11

she was very angry because she was not the

53:13

first author. She broke down.

53:15

She was extremely angry with all of

53:17

us. She exploded into something emotional that

53:19

we had never seen before in our

53:21

careers. So back

53:23

to the, her

53:26

brother's shooting. So

53:29

like I said, on the day she shot and killed

53:31

her brother, she ran out onto the street with a

53:33

shotgun and demanded a car at a local dealership. For

53:36

whatever reason, the cops accepted the mother's story

53:39

that the shooting was an accident. And

53:41

like I said, did not tie

53:44

both of these incidents together, which

53:46

would have resulted in felony charges

53:48

and likely a psychological evaluation. She's

53:51

a murderer. And

53:53

there is, there

53:56

are theories that the parents had

53:59

ties with the law. local police. It's also

54:01

not a big, it's not a

54:03

large area, but like kind of small town. It's

54:05

a small town vibe. Brain tree. I don't

54:09

get that name is disgusting. We all know

54:11

each other. Yeah, they're looking out for each

54:13

other. And then like I said, the cops

54:15

like helped them. And

54:18

Judy, the mom, Judy,

54:21

the mother told the brain tree

54:23

forum and observer a week after

54:25

the shooting, quote, you cannot imagine

54:27

how kind the brain tree police

54:29

were to us. Oh, I fucking

54:32

bet, bitch. I fucking bet. Also

54:35

like years after this

54:37

incident, several like prosecutors,

54:39

lawyers, investigators were like, this

54:41

seems really fucking fishy, especially

54:43

after the pipe bomb thing.

54:46

So they went back to try

54:48

to like reinvestigate the brothers shooting.

54:51

And I'm sure everything is gone. The files are

54:53

gone. Yeah, everything's gone. No way. Yeah. Because it

54:55

wasn't a crime. So why would we keep this?

54:58

Yeah, totally gone. So that

55:00

was that could have

55:02

saved these three people's lives. Yeah.

55:05

Had that in help at this point. So

55:08

in September of 2012, Bishop pleaded

55:11

guilty to one count of capital murder

55:13

involving two or more people and three

55:15

counts of attempted murder and was sentenced

55:17

to life in prison without parole. The

55:20

jury took 20 whole minutes to

55:22

decide her sentence and she

55:24

reportedly, at least they were like, lol,

55:27

bye, bitch. Like, yeah, yeah. She

55:30

reportedly showed no emotion. So that

55:34

is the story of Amy Bishop. There's like,

55:37

more shockingly, but I couldn't, I couldn't

55:39

get in. I couldn't get into all of

55:41

it. But it's I was

55:43

like, familiar. I knew her name. And

55:45

I knew that there had been like,

55:48

a faculty shooting. Yeah.

55:52

I didn't know the details of

55:54

said shooting or anything else

55:56

about this fucking monster. Yeah.

56:00

that fucking wild? Like she's just

56:02

a bad person. I

56:04

mean, yeah, that is, that is

56:07

on top of mental. I mean, if,

56:09

if your behavior points to your character,

56:11

not great. I,

56:14

and she should have been evaluated

56:16

long ago, killed

56:19

her brother in front

56:21

of her mother. She wasn't even

56:24

officially arrested or charged

56:27

for any of that. I'm rarely

56:29

speechless, but holy shit. Mm

56:31

hmm. So yes, it was technically

56:33

a school shooting, but not the kinds that,

56:35

right, that we were. Yep. Yeah.

56:38

Well, um, great

56:40

job. You had that pint glass of

56:42

vodka. Kinda. I feel

56:45

physically ill, like

56:49

lightheaded. So let's

56:51

take a quick sponsor break so I can

56:53

like eat a cookie and get my composure

56:55

and then we can dive

56:57

into some other deeply horrific shit

57:00

for the second half of this

57:02

episode. Can't wait. Wouldn't be mad

57:04

if you tuned away.

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Oh, stay right back. Do you

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well, I wish I could

1:01:46

provide any levity after

1:01:48

that. Me too. But

1:01:52

I can't, so I'm just going to ... This

1:01:54

is a lot, so I'm just going to dive in. This is

1:01:57

an unconventional case of like ... Usually

1:02:00

when we cover a crime, it's got a narrative,

1:02:02

it's got characters, it's got a story that you

1:02:04

can follow through until we like hit motive

1:02:06

means opportunity. It's, you know, a

1:02:09

person hurting another person. But

1:02:12

in this situation, we're kind of all

1:02:14

culprits, like, especially

1:02:17

like American society. Like

1:02:20

we're culpable. In a

1:02:23

way, I mean, the perpetrators are

1:02:25

systemic, the victims are hidden.

1:02:28

There's like, faithless and vilified

1:02:31

individuals here, some actual villains. And

1:02:33

the narrative is serpentine. It's wrestled up. We're

1:02:35

just going to try to like wade into

1:02:38

this how we can. Okay. And we're just

1:02:40

going to read some Department of Justice legal

1:02:42

memos on Friday afternoon, which is totally normal.

1:02:44

I love that. Yep. So

1:02:47

our victim would be human decency.

1:02:53

Our perpetrator would be the

1:02:55

United States government. Yeah. And

1:02:58

there are multiple individuals at

1:03:01

fault here. But for the purpose of today's case,

1:03:03

we're specifically going to be talking about John Yu, who

1:03:05

was the department on me. No,

1:03:09

John Yu. Oh, the

1:03:11

deputy assistant attorney general, the

1:03:14

murder weapon, corrupted self serving

1:03:16

logic loops and utter bullshit, and

1:03:19

the motive xenophobia and post 911 hysteria.

1:03:23

Okay, this is serpentine. Yep.

1:03:26

So we're going to

1:03:28

be talking about what has come to

1:03:30

be known as the torture memos. And

1:03:34

there are a few examples that fit academic

1:03:37

atrocity quite so well.

1:03:40

So for context and why this fits

1:03:42

with today's topic, we're going to give

1:03:44

you a little bit of background on John Yu. And

1:03:47

he is a South Korean born American

1:03:49

legal scholar and former government official

1:03:51

who served as or currently serves,

1:03:53

I believe as the Emmanuel S.

1:03:56

Heller professor of law at the University

1:03:58

of California in Berkeley. You

1:04:00

became known for his legal

1:04:02

opinions concerning executive power, warrantless

1:04:04

wiretapping, and the Geneva Conventions,

1:04:07

while serving in the George W.

1:04:09

Bush administration. Oh, got it. Don't even

1:04:12

need to ask what those opinions were. Yep.

1:04:14

During which he was the author of

1:04:17

the controversial, quote, torture memos in

1:04:19

the War on Terror. So his

1:04:21

status in academia, specifically the study

1:04:23

of law, gave him the power

1:04:26

to change what I guess

1:04:28

you could call the interrogation playbook

1:04:30

of war in like a deep

1:04:33

and terrifying way. Jesus. Yeah.

1:04:37

So for those... Speaking of Oppenheimer. Yeah,

1:04:39

seriously. For those listening

1:04:42

who were like born in 2001,

1:04:44

post 9-11, this country went absolutely

1:04:46

batshit crazy. It

1:04:50

was clear that the cycle of violence

1:04:52

was going to significantly escalate. And

1:04:54

those of us who were

1:04:56

in the streets protesting against this

1:04:58

like death spiral and pending war

1:05:01

were in an embarrassing minority. And

1:05:03

it's just funny how fucking history repeats

1:05:05

itself and how relevant this feels today.

1:05:09

When the US launched its global

1:05:11

war on terror, they found themselves

1:05:14

in uncharted waters with enemies that

1:05:16

were not easy to categorize paranoia

1:05:18

at unprecedented levels. And like we

1:05:20

were just being lied to left

1:05:23

and right by the government

1:05:25

about like who had weapons

1:05:27

of mass destruction, where the

1:05:29

threat was. It was a

1:05:31

fucking mess. It's like such

1:05:34

a patriotism was just crammed down

1:05:36

your throat, but it wasn't... It

1:05:39

wasn't as obviously

1:05:41

propaganda as it is now.

1:05:43

I think it

1:05:46

was a lot easier to kind of swallow because

1:05:48

we had been attacked. Right. Yeah.

1:05:50

It was a really weird fucking time.

1:05:53

Really fucking weird time. And I think

1:05:55

it's safe to say that we suffered post-traumatic stress

1:05:57

as a country and we were not having it.

1:06:00

handling it well at all. And

1:06:03

in our hunt for the enemy, certain

1:06:05

legal questions arose. And that's where John Yu and

1:06:08

folks who, you know, like the assistant district

1:06:10

attorney or whatever at the time also like

1:06:12

signed off on these memos. So like there

1:06:15

were there were teams of people kind of

1:06:17

guided by this renowned

1:06:20

legal mind in

1:06:22

academia who were who were guiding this

1:06:24

narrative and writing these procedures. Yeah,

1:06:26

we had to look to some

1:06:28

people. Uh-huh. And he sounds

1:06:30

smart. Yeah, I mean, and I'm not saying

1:06:33

that this individual isn't smart. But

1:06:35

I'm saying that intellect can be

1:06:37

weaponized and it absolutely was. So

1:06:40

the term torture memos has come to refer

1:06:42

to three documents prepared by the Department of

1:06:44

Justice. These documents advise the Central

1:06:47

Intelligence Agency at the United States Department

1:06:49

of Defense and the President on the

1:06:51

use of enhanced interrogation techniques, including

1:06:54

mental and physical torment and

1:06:56

coercion such as prolonged sleep

1:06:58

deprivation, binding and stress positions

1:07:00

and waterboarding. And stated

1:07:04

that such acts widely regarded as torture

1:07:06

might be legally permissible under an expansive

1:07:08

interpretation of presidential authority during the war

1:07:11

on terror. Quote torture memo standards of

1:07:13

conduct for interrogation under 18 USC sections

1:07:15

2023 40 through 2340 a is the

1:07:17

primary torture

1:07:22

memo which defies the DOJ interpretation of

1:07:24

torture written in response to the president's

1:07:26

reported request for a legal opinion on

1:07:29

the UN Convention against torture. So this

1:07:31

is where like, John use

1:07:33

authority is directly asked for by

1:07:35

the president and 18 USC section

1:07:38

2340 and the interrogation of al Qaeda operatives.

1:07:42

It discusses the language of the

1:07:44

torture statute in detail in order

1:07:46

to derive its definition of torture

1:07:48

and states that cruel, inhumane or

1:07:51

degrading treatment is not torture, according

1:07:53

to the statute and examines quote

1:07:55

possible defenses that would negate any

1:07:57

claim that certain interrogation methods that.

1:08:00

Violate the Thatcher. It concludes that

1:08:02

torture is only extreme acts according

1:08:04

to the United Nations Convention against

1:08:06

torture, that severe pain is a

1:08:08

requisite for this definition of torture

1:08:11

and that the the definition of

1:08:13

severe pain is quote serious physical

1:08:15

injury such as organ failure, impairment

1:08:17

of bodily function, or even death

1:08:19

and that prologue mental harm is

1:08:21

harm that must last four months.

1:08:23

Or even years. So keeping

1:08:26

someone a wait. Or.

1:08:28

And were day light rooms. For

1:08:30

the probably be fine under this

1:08:33

definition. Sick. As if

1:08:35

it is kind of like intentional

1:08:37

leave Z Yeah yeah. You.

1:08:39

Know so that you can

1:08:41

get away with a lot

1:08:43

of shit you think that

1:08:45

a convention against Torture would

1:08:47

have would. Be. Operating with

1:08:49

the a purpose of. Preventing.

1:08:52

Torture you think and not

1:08:54

just. Deciding. It vaguely.

1:08:56

Yep, but also stated that

1:08:59

prosecution under Section Twenty Three

1:09:01

Forty A may be barred

1:09:03

because enforcement of the statue

1:09:05

would represent an unconstitutional infringements

1:09:07

of the President's authority to

1:09:09

adopt war and that other

1:09:11

the current circumstances, necessity or

1:09:13

self defense made justify interrogation

1:09:15

methods that might violate Section

1:09:17

Twenty. Three Forty a. Self.

1:09:19

Defense. Cool.

1:09:23

Places. Don't that? they're all these

1:09:25

loopholes have. To.

1:09:28

Go a little deeper into John Hughes

1:09:30

had a death you know academic definitions

1:09:32

hear for are some or excerpts from

1:09:35

from these memos. Torture Me

1:09:37

than acts committed by a person acting

1:09:39

under the color of law specifically intended

1:09:41

to inflict severe physical or mental pain

1:09:44

or suffering other than pain or suffering

1:09:46

incidental to lawful sanctions upon another person

1:09:48

with his custody or physical control. There's

1:09:51

also a segment in here less as

1:09:53

whoever outside the United States commits or

1:09:55

attempts to commit. Torture shall be fined

1:09:58

under this title or imprisoned not. More

1:10:00

than twenty years or both and if staff

1:10:02

results to. Any person from conduct for him

1:10:04

it it by this subsection shall. Be punished

1:10:06

by death or imprisoned for any term

1:10:08

of yours or for life though those

1:10:10

that are clickable to people outside of

1:10:13

the United States committing these same acts.

1:10:15

But that's besides the Us is

1:10:17

essentially like except ah, The.

1:10:20

Memo also create some pretty questionable cover

1:10:22

for people who participate in these. Extreme

1:10:24

interrogation. So remember it says like you

1:10:26

have to specifically intended to inflict severe

1:10:28

physical or mental pain which is like

1:10:30

The hardest part to prove in court

1:10:32

of law is that they mean to

1:10:35

do it. Did they mean to drown

1:10:37

this man with a wet rag? Exactly

1:10:39

To violate Twenty Three Forty A, the

1:10:41

statute requires that severe pain and suffering

1:10:44

must be inflicted with specific intent. In.

1:10:46

Order for a defendant to have acted

1:10:48

with specific content, he must expressly intend

1:10:51

to achieve the forbidden act. As a

1:10:53

result, that offended had to act with

1:10:55

the express cope purpose that this obey

1:10:57

the law and order for the Mets

1:10:59

mens Rea element to be satisfied. Will

1:11:02

Torture Your intention isn't to kill. Your.

1:11:04

Intention is says. A. Would

1:11:06

ever make sense information? In

1:11:10

theory. So like. What See

1:11:12

what's the a little light. Torture doesn't count

1:11:14

unless you meant it to be bad. unless

1:11:16

you meant to kill them which are meant

1:11:18

to hurt them. Yeah, It It's

1:11:20

this includes. Harm. Like

1:11:23

severe pain. It's.

1:11:26

Wild City. The memorandum memorandum scuse

1:11:28

me concludes with a narrow definition

1:11:30

of torture that it's cause severe

1:11:32

pain must necessarily be pain associated

1:11:34

with seth organ failure or serious

1:11:36

impairment of bodily functions. It also

1:11:39

sets of the statute requires prolonged

1:11:41

mental harm to accompany mental or

1:11:43

physical pain, and that prolonged means.

1:11:45

The duration of months Or years. So again,

1:11:47

just like three. Three and a half? You

1:11:49

know, three or four weeks doesn't count. right?

1:11:52

Oh. Jesus Christ. So.

1:11:55

We use these tactics.

1:11:59

During. The War. on terror. And

1:12:01

these excuses and these loopholes.

1:12:04

Yep. So the interrogation of, I'm

1:12:06

sorry, I'm gonna, it's Abu

1:12:08

Zubaydah, right? I'm pretty sure it's

1:12:10

the beta. Sure. That looks right.

1:12:12

So the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah followed

1:12:14

these ideas and was laid out in

1:12:16

detail in a memo written for John

1:12:19

Rizzo, who was the acting general counsel

1:12:21

of the CIA at the time. The

1:12:23

question was, what can we do and

1:12:25

not wind up in jail while

1:12:27

we're like trying to figure out

1:12:29

where WMDs might be or like

1:12:31

who was behind 9-11, et cetera.

1:12:34

So this memo lays that out and

1:12:36

it is utterly horrifying and we're gonna go

1:12:39

over it because that's what we do on

1:12:41

this show. So

1:12:43

this is the interrogation of Al Qaeda operative

1:12:45

memo for John Rizzo acting general counsel of

1:12:48

the CIA. Great. So the beta is one

1:12:50

of the highest ranking, according to this memo,

1:12:52

is one of the highest ranking members of

1:12:54

the Al Qaeda terrorist organization with which the

1:12:57

United States is currently engaged in an international

1:13:00

armed conflict following the attacks on the World

1:13:02

Trade Center and the Pentagon on September 11,

1:13:04

2001. The interrogation team

1:13:07

is certain that he has additional information that

1:13:09

he refuses to divulge. Specifically,

1:13:11

he is withholding information regarding terrorist networks

1:13:14

in the United States or in Saudi

1:13:16

Arabia and information regarding plans

1:13:18

to conduct attacks within the United

1:13:20

States or against our interests overseas.

1:13:23

Zubaydah has become accustomed to a certain level

1:13:25

of treatment and displays no signs of willingness

1:13:28

to disclose further information. Moreover,

1:13:31

your intelligence indicates that there is currently

1:13:33

a level of chatter equal to that

1:13:35

which preceded the September 11 attack. So

1:13:37

like an indication that other attacks would

1:13:39

be coming. There's like water cooler

1:13:42

gossip. Okay. About

1:13:44

terrorism. Yeah. In

1:13:47

light of the information you believe Zubaydah

1:13:49

has and the high level of threat

1:13:51

you believe now exists, you wish to

1:13:53

move the interrogations into what you have

1:13:55

described as quote, an increased pressure phase.

1:13:57

Who is you? You is Like

1:14:00

the United States government this is like

1:14:02

a memo that went to the like.

1:14:05

Guy. Running the Cia at the time. Okay,

1:14:07

As it got the guy you and now

1:14:09

we have the javelin. The Imperialists: y o

1:14:11

u. Yep! So John You

1:14:13

is the one who caught a

1:14:16

like set up the parameters for

1:14:18

what torture and what isn't and

1:14:20

now it's these parameters are being

1:14:23

specifically apply the or like we're.

1:14:26

About to apply them to

1:14:28

the beta. Which

1:14:30

is this is. this is basically

1:14:33

like Here's why we're. Going to

1:14:35

torture him. Written. In a

1:14:37

memo for the Acting General Counsel

1:14:39

of the Cia. Basically, it's like

1:14:41

years the formal request for us

1:14:43

to up the ante on how

1:14:45

we're getting information out of this

1:14:47

individual and the ways that they

1:14:49

want. To torture him

1:14:51

to get this information. Are.

1:14:54

Available because of John. Use Torture memos.

1:14:56

gotta have it It Just so the

1:14:59

language is a little bit confusing is

1:15:01

in it's all. it's all fucking legal

1:15:03

jargon to make. it like very dry and

1:15:05

confusing but. Then essentially this is like the

1:15:07

formal request that we move into the quote

1:15:10

increased pressure phase and words epsomite and doing

1:15:12

it for them were justified in doing it

1:15:14

for these reasons. In here are the tactics

1:15:16

that you have sanctioned. That we want to

1:15:18

use. So this is the

1:15:21

overview of the increase pressure phase on

1:15:23

the beta Press this. This increase pressure

1:15:25

phase will likely last no more than

1:15:27

several days. That could last up to

1:15:30

thirty days. In this phase you would

1:15:32

like to employ ten technique the you

1:15:34

believe will dislocate his expectations regarding the

1:15:37

treatment he believes he will receive and

1:15:39

encourage him to disclose the crucial information

1:15:41

mentioned above. These techniques would be used

1:15:43

as needed and will not necessarily include

1:15:46

all. And expect to be used

1:15:48

in some sort of escalating fashion. Culminating

1:15:50

with the waterboard, though not necessarily

1:15:52

ending with this technique. The

1:15:55

techniques include attention grasp which

1:15:57

is grasping the. Individual with.

1:16:00

hands, one hand on each side of the

1:16:02

collar opening and a controlled and quick motion.

1:16:04

In the same motion as the grasp, the

1:16:06

individual is drawn toward the interrogator. So it's like

1:16:08

roughing you up. Walling,

1:16:11

a flexible false wall will

1:16:13

be constructed. The individual is placed with

1:16:15

his heels touching the wall. The interrogator

1:16:18

pulls the individual forward and then quickly

1:16:20

and firmly pushes the individual into the

1:16:22

wall. It is the individual's shoulder

1:16:24

blades that hit the wall. In

1:16:27

this motion, the head and neck are

1:16:29

supported with a rolled hood or towel

1:16:31

that provides a C-collar effect to help

1:16:33

prevent whiplash, thank God. To

1:16:35

further reduce the probability of injury, the

1:16:37

individual is allowed to rebound from the

1:16:39

flexible wall. You have orally

1:16:41

informed us that the false wall is

1:16:43

in part constructed to create a loud sound

1:16:45

when the individual hits it, which will further

1:16:48

shock or surprise the individual. In

1:16:50

part, the idea is to create a sound that

1:16:53

will make the impact seem far worse than it

1:16:55

is and that will be far worse than any

1:16:57

injury that might result from the action. So

1:16:59

it's like bark over bite. Slamming against

1:17:01

the wall. Right. A

1:17:03

facial hold. The facial hold is used to

1:17:06

hold the head immobile. One

1:17:08

open palm is placed on either side of

1:17:10

the individual's face. The fingertips are kept well

1:17:12

away from the individual's eyes. A

1:17:14

facial slap, so literally slapping somebody

1:17:16

in the face over and over and over again.

1:17:20

Correct confinement, so they either

1:17:22

build or provide some kind of confined

1:17:24

space that's usually in the dark. Like

1:17:27

a crate. It's like

1:17:29

the choke from fucking Matilda. The

1:17:33

duration of confinement varies based upon the

1:17:35

size of the container that's available. For

1:17:38

the larger confined space, the individual can stand

1:17:40

up or sit down. The

1:17:42

smaller space is large enough for the subject to sit

1:17:44

down. And in the larger space

1:17:46

can last up to 18 hours. For the

1:17:49

smaller space, confinement lasts for no more than

1:17:51

two hours. Sorry, in the confined

1:17:53

space, they cannot sit down. They have to stand.

1:17:55

Yeah. And all that's only if

1:17:57

they can only find a small box.

1:18:00

put them in. Mm hmm. They'll make

1:18:02

them do wall standing, which is

1:18:04

used to induce muscle fatigue. They stand about four

1:18:06

to five feet from a wall with their feet

1:18:09

spread approximately shoulder width apart,

1:18:12

arms stretched out in front of them with their fingers

1:18:14

resting on the wall. Fingers support

1:18:16

all of their body weight and the individual is

1:18:18

not permitted to move or reposition their hands

1:18:20

or feet for hours. Oh

1:18:22

my God. Putting them in

1:18:24

stress positions, a variety of stress

1:18:27

positions may be used. You have informed us

1:18:29

that these positions are not designed to produce

1:18:31

the pain associated with contortions or twisting of

1:18:33

the body. Rather somewhat like

1:18:35

walling, they are designed to produce the

1:18:37

physical discomfort associated with muscle fatigue. Two

1:18:40

particular stress positions are likely to be

1:18:42

used on the beta. One

1:18:44

sitting on the floor with legs extended straight out

1:18:46

in front of him with his arms raised above

1:18:49

his head and two kneeling on the floor while

1:18:51

leaning back at a 45 degree angle.

1:18:54

They have also orally informed us that through

1:18:56

observing the beta in captivity, that's literally

1:18:58

written in here like an

1:19:00

animal. You

1:19:02

have noted that he appears to be quite flexible

1:19:04

despite his wound. So he was already injured at

1:19:07

this time. Oh my God. And

1:19:09

they noted that the wound was

1:19:11

sustained during capture. Now, I'm not,

1:19:13

as a humanist, I understand

1:19:16

that some of the tactics

1:19:19

that like some of the people that we use these

1:19:21

tactics on are not good fucking people. I'm

1:19:23

not saying that like we

1:19:25

should all be simping for

1:19:27

like known terrorists. It's

1:19:31

just the fact

1:19:34

that we can do this

1:19:37

legally and essentially have

1:19:40

carte blanche to operate outside of

1:19:42

the Geneva Convention in like any

1:19:44

capacity is such a slippery slope.

1:19:47

And to know the details of like what

1:19:49

we were doing. That you're just kind of

1:19:51

like clevering your way out of

1:19:54

parameters that have been adopted for

1:19:57

a reason globally. Well, not

1:19:59

globally. they're inhumane.

1:20:01

Yeah. So it's just

1:20:03

I just wanted to make that clear. You

1:20:07

know, because I am I'm sure that I

1:20:09

don't know. I just I need I just

1:20:11

needed to say it. I needed to say it. Yeah.

1:20:14

I don't want to come off as defending this dude. No,

1:20:17

of course not. But yeah, and then the

1:20:19

descriptions of some of these procedures.

1:20:21

I feel it. They're

1:20:25

very scary. Sleep deprivation

1:20:27

is one of them. Insects placed in

1:20:29

a confinement box. So you could put

1:20:31

someone they wanted to put him specifically

1:20:34

in a cramped confinement box full of

1:20:36

insects. It's like some fear factor shit.

1:20:40

And they wanted to get this

1:20:42

cleared because he expressed

1:20:44

a fear of insects like

1:20:47

in particular. Oh, and they

1:20:49

wanted to use stinging insects. Oh,

1:20:53

it's it's really sick that there's like some

1:20:55

creative ingenuity involved in developing. Yeah. Well, yeah,

1:20:58

you get a psychological profile on somebody and

1:21:00

you know what their fears are and then

1:21:02

you use them. Yeah. And even

1:21:04

just like physiologically, the the wall stuff

1:21:06

and the fingertip stuff and the bending

1:21:09

and the like, you got

1:21:11

this. There's somebody

1:21:14

out there who designed these

1:21:16

specifically. Yeah. So

1:21:19

the final escalation would be the water board. In

1:21:21

this procedure, the individual is bound securely

1:21:24

on an inclined bench, which is approximately

1:21:26

four feet by seven feet. The individual's

1:21:28

feet are generally elevated. A cloth is

1:21:30

placed over the forehead and eyes. Water

1:21:33

is applied to the cloth in a

1:21:35

controlled manner. As this is done,

1:21:37

the cloth is lowered until it covers both the

1:21:39

nose and mouth. Once the cloth

1:21:42

is saturated and completely covers the mouth and

1:21:44

nose, airflow is slightly restricted. It's very

1:21:47

fucking restricted. People have definitely died being

1:21:49

waterboarded. You're drowning. Yeah.

1:21:51

For 20 to 40 seconds due to the

1:21:53

presence of the cloth. This causes an increase

1:21:55

in carbon dioxide level in the individual's blood.

1:21:57

This increase in the carbon dioxide level is

1:22:00

carbon dioxide level stimulates increased effort

1:22:02

to breathe. So like while

1:22:04

you can't breathe, your body is fighting to breathe

1:22:06

and you're just sucking in this wet cloth and

1:22:09

it's like you can't control how much you

1:22:11

like escalate your breathing. This

1:22:14

effort plus the cloth

1:22:16

produces the perception of drowning. The

1:22:18

individual does not breathe any water into his

1:22:21

lungs. Let me make that clear. Okay.

1:22:24

Sure. So in 20 to 40 seconds, water

1:22:26

is continuously applied from a height of 12

1:22:28

to 24 inches. So

1:22:31

water is just like falling on your face. After

1:22:33

this period, the cloth is lifted and the individual

1:22:35

is allowed to breathe unimpeded for three to four

1:22:38

full breaths and then they start over again. You

1:22:40

can kind of catch your breath, three or four

1:22:42

breaths and then they repeat

1:22:44

this over and over again. You have already informed us

1:22:46

that it is likely that this procedure would not last

1:22:48

for the 20 minutes in any

1:22:50

one application. Likely. Yeah. It's very

1:22:53

intentionally vague. They then go on

1:22:55

to explain that these should not result in any

1:22:57

prolonged mental harm and as they

1:22:59

use these procedures on their own military

1:23:01

personnel in their training to resist interrogations.

1:23:05

It's like we do this to our own guys

1:23:07

to train them in case they get captured and

1:23:09

interrogated. So it's not that bad. We're

1:23:12

just inflicting trauma on everyone. You

1:23:16

don't get over that. The

1:23:19

Navy specifically continues to use waterboarding

1:23:21

in training and they have not

1:23:23

encountered any significant long-term mental health

1:23:25

consequences from its use according to this memo.

1:23:29

Okay. I feel like

1:23:31

it's disingenuous to claim that training

1:23:33

to experience torture and actually being

1:23:36

tortured is even comparable.

1:23:39

If your body has that panic reaction, that's not

1:23:41

something that can be trained out of you. No.

1:23:44

I'm not saying that there isn't harm in

1:23:46

using that as a training exercise but as

1:23:49

a training exercise, it's in a much more

1:23:51

controlled and ideally

1:23:54

safe environment. You

1:23:57

are prepared. You're like,

1:23:59

okay, I know this is a problem. as part of my training.

1:24:02

You're not going

1:24:04

to be killed by taking this too far,

1:24:06

and most likely God willing.

1:24:08

So I just feel like that's not

1:24:10

a fair comparison to be like, we do it to our

1:24:13

own for training, so it's fine

1:24:15

to do it to a terrorist. Yeah, that's

1:24:17

ridiculous. Because they're not being applied in the

1:24:19

same circumstances. I

1:24:22

don't know. It's not the fucking same. So

1:24:25

this continues to say, your psychological assessment

1:24:27

indicates that it is believed, Zabeta wrote

1:24:29

Al-Qaeda's manual on resistance techniques. You also

1:24:31

believe that his experiences in Al-Qaeda make

1:24:34

him well acquainted with and well versed

1:24:36

in such techniques. So it's like he's

1:24:38

experienced this and administered this himself. It's

1:24:40

not like he's going to be new to

1:24:43

these tactics. Okay.

1:24:47

Yeah, it's just... The same thing on the

1:24:49

other side of the coin. Like, yeah, it's

1:24:52

not the same. And

1:24:54

like I said, so Zabeta stated during

1:24:56

interviews that he thinks of any activity

1:24:58

outside of jihad as silly. He has

1:25:00

indicated that his heart and mind are

1:25:02

devoted to serving Allah. And,

1:25:05

you know, he has been very

1:25:07

clear that he is aligned with

1:25:10

jihad and believes that

1:25:12

the global victory of Islam is inevitable.

1:25:15

And like, he has made clear that

1:25:17

he continues to express his automated

1:25:19

desire to kill specifically Americans

1:25:21

and Jewish people. Like, he

1:25:24

is a very bad man.

1:25:27

And like I said before,

1:25:29

I don't condone a goddamn thing

1:25:32

that this man has done

1:25:34

or incited. And

1:25:37

I also believe that a person's

1:25:39

villainy should not negate our humanity

1:25:41

because that slope is so fucking

1:25:43

slippery. Like, we

1:25:46

have to... Multiple things can be true

1:25:48

at once. And if

1:25:50

we don't hold those truths very

1:25:53

carefully and with intention, we

1:25:55

can do some serious,

1:25:58

irrevocable fucking heart. And

1:26:01

just because no one's gonna lose a wink

1:26:03

of sleep over torturing like this guy Doesn't

1:26:06

mean that it should be allowed

1:26:08

to use these methods on basically

1:26:10

anyone that the government which cannot

1:26:12

be fucking trusted Yeah deems a

1:26:16

threat It's just it's it's the

1:26:18

slope is just too fucking slippery for me

1:26:20

It makes me very very uncomfortable that we

1:26:23

have legal protections to do this kind

1:26:25

of shit to basically anyone that we

1:26:27

deem a threat So did these memos

1:26:30

then create the precedence that this can

1:26:33

continue happening or have

1:26:35

they been shut down since? so

1:26:38

all of this was kind of kept pretty under

1:26:40

wraps by the government for a considerable

1:26:43

amount of time But then

1:26:45

things started getting leaked in 2004

1:26:49

because like leaks gonna leak it's

1:26:51

gonna happen. So in 2004 a now infamous

1:26:53

and disturbing

1:26:56

photo of the torture of about

1:26:58

Hussein Saad Falais made

1:27:00

it onto the cover of the Economist

1:27:03

and CBS News and The

1:27:05

Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse

1:27:07

scandal in Iraq had like officially

1:27:09

broken in the press So

1:27:12

in that press leak it

1:27:15

was revealed that during the early stages of

1:27:17

the Iraq war members of the United States

1:27:19

Army and the CIA committed a series of

1:27:22

Human rights violations and war crimes against detainees

1:27:24

in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq including

1:27:27

physical abuse sexual humiliation both

1:27:29

physical and psychological torture rape

1:27:32

the killing of Manadel

1:27:35

al-jamadi and the desecration of

1:27:37

his body these

1:27:39

abuses came to public attention like

1:27:41

I said with the publication

1:27:43

of photographs of the abuse by CBS

1:27:45

News in April 2004

1:27:48

and the incidents caused shock and outrage

1:27:50

receiving widespread condemnation within the United States

1:27:52

and internationally and the UN just being

1:27:55

like Hey, these are fucking war crimes

1:27:58

Yeah, like We

1:28:01

have rules of war for a

1:28:03

reason. Mm-hmm. Also a

1:28:05

bit of like the Vietnam syndrome. Yes.

1:28:08

People don't... People

1:28:10

can be behind their patriotism,

1:28:12

their nationalism, be

1:28:14

all about a war if you

1:28:16

feel like it's justified. Sure. But

1:28:19

then as soon as you start seeing photographs

1:28:22

of the effect of that

1:28:24

conflict... Yeah, it can change your

1:28:26

mind pretty quick. Yeah. No,

1:28:29

because we as a society, especially in

1:28:31

the West, we glamorize war so much.

1:28:33

Because we don't see it right in

1:28:35

front of us. Yeah. And

1:28:38

then when you are actually seeing the real

1:28:41

fucking on the ground shit, it's why

1:28:44

it's so important that we don't look away. So

1:28:47

obviously there was outrage and people

1:28:49

were calling on the Bush

1:28:51

administration to fucking be accountable for

1:28:53

this shit. And the George W.

1:28:55

Bush administration claimed that these instances

1:28:58

were isolated incidents and

1:29:00

not indicative of US policy. There's

1:29:02

just dozens of isolated incidents. Yeah.

1:29:05

Yeah, this isn't us. That's like that was just...

1:29:07

That was one time. It's one bad apple. Fine.

1:29:11

Of course, humanitarian organizations determined that was

1:29:14

a lie, so like Q. Morry Povich.

1:29:18

But some kind of joke in here because this is so fucking

1:29:20

horrific. People humanitarian organizations

1:29:22

stated that the abuses at Abu Ghraib

1:29:24

were part of a wider pattern of

1:29:27

torture and brutal treatment at American overseas

1:29:29

detention centers, including those in Iraq, Afghanistan,

1:29:31

and at Guantanamo Bay, which like, you know,

1:29:33

we know Guantanamo Bay is a fucking hellscape.

1:29:37

So then the torture memos came

1:29:39

to light a few years after

1:29:41

this initial torture scandal broke.

1:29:45

And those documents issued in

1:29:48

multiple memoranda were prepared in the months

1:29:50

leading up to the 20, 2003

1:29:53

invasion of Iraq by the US State Department of Justice

1:29:55

and like written by John Yoo. And

1:29:58

overall, they authorized certain... enhanced

1:30:00

interrogation techniques, heavy quotes, which

1:30:02

is like torture. The foreign

1:30:04

detainees can't be used on

1:30:07

United States Americans, but we can use

1:30:10

it abroad. Those memos

1:30:12

also argued that international humanitarian

1:30:14

laws such as the Geneva

1:30:16

Conventions did not apply to

1:30:18

American interrogators overseas. So like

1:30:20

when we're doing it, it doesn't count. How did

1:30:22

they come to that conclusion? I mean,

1:30:24

we'd have to be law professors and

1:30:26

pour through all of the memos and

1:30:29

I've already like my brain is crumbled

1:30:31

eggs reading this. I'm reaching

1:30:33

my limits here, but like

1:30:35

that's just the gymnastics. It's

1:30:38

wild. So

1:30:40

John, you concluded that federal laws prohibiting

1:30:42

the use of torture did not apply

1:30:44

to US practices overseas. And that's

1:30:46

like that right there is the like

1:30:49

main crux of the issue. That's

1:30:51

the gist how fucked up that

1:30:54

is by itself. Oh my God.

1:30:56

Several subsequent US Supreme Court decisions

1:30:59

including Hamdan V. Rumsfeld in 2006

1:31:02

have overturned Bush administration policy

1:31:04

ruling that the Geneva Conventions

1:31:07

do apply to us

1:31:09

abroad. Thank God. Yeah. Well, there's

1:31:11

got away with it for quite

1:31:14

a while for

1:31:16

a really fucking long time. I mean, can't

1:31:18

you just feel the fucking freedom? I feel

1:31:20

it coursing through my veins. I

1:31:22

feel it's obviously on my forehead right

1:31:25

here. Yeah, that one vein and my

1:31:27

eye twitching. So

1:31:29

there's obviously so much more to this and

1:31:32

like a lot that I do not have

1:31:34

the intellectual capacity to understand. I did the

1:31:36

best that I could. And we don't have

1:31:39

the show form format to go

1:31:41

much deeper. Like there could be

1:31:43

entire and probably are like huge

1:31:45

documentary length. Oh,

1:31:47

yeah. Shows about these

1:31:50

memos specifically. But what

1:31:52

this really affirms to me is

1:31:54

that like academia and knowledge can be

1:31:56

used for evil as much as it's used

1:31:58

for good. And human beings

1:32:01

can intellectualize ourselves into literally

1:32:03

condoning torture in like if

1:32:05

the right academic is

1:32:07

writing the rules. Yeah. And

1:32:10

like I keep saying, regardless

1:32:13

of the villainy and

1:32:15

horrifying acts of the people that

1:32:17

may or may not have had

1:32:19

this torture inflicted upon them, setting

1:32:23

that precedent that we can do

1:32:25

this abroad is very

1:32:27

fucking dangerous. And we have to pay attention

1:32:29

to shit like that. Yeah.

1:32:32

Because we're gonna fucking keep, you know,

1:32:35

the West is gonna atrocity and

1:32:37

we're gonna keep committing them. Yeah.

1:32:40

Right, Pepperoni? That just made Pepperoni yowl.

1:32:43

Yeah. I don't know if that got picked up

1:32:45

on the mic, but girl, I know, right? Oh.

1:32:49

It's just really scary shit. And like,

1:32:53

again, there's so much that I couldn't include, but

1:32:55

I mean, the shit

1:32:57

we've done and the shit we continue to do

1:32:59

is fucking

1:33:02

depraved. And we

1:33:04

have to be paying attention. And like,

1:33:07

I'm very grateful for whistleblowers and people

1:33:09

who do leak this kind

1:33:11

of information that's typically kept behind closed

1:33:13

doors by the government because otherwise we

1:33:15

just wouldn't really know. Yeah.

1:33:18

And until we get over this idea

1:33:20

of American exceptionalism, yes, we're

1:33:23

not gonna collectively come to

1:33:25

that agreement. People

1:33:28

genuinely believe that they don't apply

1:33:30

to Americans overseas. Yeah, this rules

1:33:32

for thee and none for me

1:33:34

bullshit backed up by like brilliant

1:33:36

legal minds that are brought in

1:33:39

to use their academic

1:33:41

strengths to like essentially

1:33:46

justify and like write this

1:33:48

into the very law of

1:33:51

how we commit war. And

1:33:53

creating those precedences. I'm

1:33:55

sure that's what they wanted. That was the goal. That

1:33:58

was exactly the goal. It's

1:34:00

just like, it's very fucking scary shit. It's

1:34:02

scary shit. And this is like, we don't

1:34:04

know what we see that

1:34:07

the government is doing on a

1:34:09

day-to-day basis is always gonna be

1:34:11

the tip of the iceberg. We

1:34:14

don't have access to these behind

1:34:16

closed doors conversations. And like that

1:34:18

shit makes me uncomfortable because the

1:34:20

shit that's happening behind closed doors is the

1:34:22

most atrocious shit. It's

1:34:24

also the shit that matters the most. Yeah,

1:34:27

so God bless the leakers.

1:34:30

Who are leaking this shit, please keep leaking.

1:34:33

Continue leaking. Continue to leak.

1:34:36

Anyway, that's

1:34:38

my segment. I

1:34:41

loved it. I do

1:34:43

have whistleblowers on the calendar.

1:34:45

You do, you do, I know. I mean,

1:34:47

I probably could have used this in that capacity

1:34:49

as well, but we're gonna do something a little

1:34:52

more fun for that. Just a

1:34:54

lot of fun whistle blowing. I

1:34:56

mean, aliens, come on. Come

1:34:59

on. Come on. Come on. Come

1:35:01

on. Come on. Come on.

1:35:04

God. Why thought this episode would be

1:35:06

a little more fun? Why thought this episode would be

1:35:08

a little more fun? It's always

1:35:11

the ones that we think will

1:35:13

be chill that are the most

1:35:15

horrifying. Yeah. Well,

1:35:17

thanks. No

1:35:20

wonder the fan picker wanted to say anonymous.

1:35:22

Say anonymous, that was four. I

1:35:24

wanna fucking say anonymous. Well, now we

1:35:26

all need a fucking pint of vodka,

1:35:28

so. I'm gonna go have a pint

1:35:30

of vodka and roll a nice fat J.

1:35:33

That sounds really good. Yeah, honey. On

1:35:35

that note, thank you so much for

1:35:38

listening. Thank you anonymous fan picker and

1:35:41

everyone take care of your mental health.

1:35:44

Yep. Everybody

1:35:46

go make a therapy appointment.

1:35:48

Thank your meds. Thank your meds.

1:35:50

Yeah. Okay. We

1:35:53

love you. See you next week. Hmm,

1:35:55

bye bye. Thanks for listening

1:35:57

to Wine and Prime, our cover art is

1:35:59

by. Yip, music by Phil

1:36:01

Young and Corey Wendell, editing by

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1:36:06

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1:36:08

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1:36:11

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