0:00

Wine and Crime contains graphic and

0:02

explicit content which may not be

0:04

suitable for some listeners.

0:06

The discussion is advised. You

0:23

are listening to Wine and Crime,

0:25

the podcasts where two friends

0:28

chug wine, chat true crime

0:30

and unleash their worst Minnesota

0:32

accents. You darn tootin' they

0:34

do. Darn tootin'. Mm-hmm.

0:37

And you know what I love about this episode?

0:40

What? That we fuckin' picked

0:42

the topic. We did and you know

0:44

what? It's reminiscent

0:46

of things we've done before. It

0:49

is. But we get to

0:52

explore some really wild

0:55

shit. Mm-hmm. So

0:58

I'm ready. I should say

1:00

before we get too far into this, I'm

1:03

Lucy. Oh, right. I'm Amanda. One

1:05

of these fuckin' days we'll get there. We're gonna get there.

1:08

But yeah, like Amanda mentioned, we've

1:11

covered similar

1:13

things before. But

1:16

this is a little bit different. And

1:19

we are today presenting you

1:21

with Mommy Dearest

1:23

Crimes. Yup. In

1:26

honor of Mother's Day. Correct.

1:28

Happy Mother's Day to all

1:30

you moms out there. All

1:32

you special mams. Ugh. It's

1:36

my first Mother's Day. That's wild. How's

1:38

that feeling? I keep reminding Corey that

1:41

it's my first Mother's Day in

1:43

the hopes of he'll remember.

1:46

Yeah. Yeah. So

1:49

I bet if he door dashed me

1:51

a Egg McMuffin and just present

1:53

it to me in bed and

1:55

then- Your standards are- June downstairs

1:57

for an hour. Yeah. I

2:00

would say quite reasonable. Yeah,

2:03

that's a pretty reasonable request. You

2:05

want breakfast and to be

2:07

left alone. Yes, but isn't

2:09

that what every mother wants? I

2:12

think that's what every person wants. Yeah,

2:15

mmm-hmm. I want that. True. True.

2:18

I don't know. I mean I'm a I'm a mom

2:20

of fur children and

2:23

I want that. You're a fur mom.

2:25

I'm a fur mom. I'm a skin mom.

2:27

Boo. Hate

2:30

that. Really.

2:33

Like skin baby. No, no, no, no.

2:36

Nope. This is not. No.

2:41

Great. As offensive to me as

2:43

the term fur baby. Yeah, no, I hate

2:45

the term fur baby. I only said it as a joke. It

2:48

weirds me out, but I do have an

2:50

unhealthy love for my cat and if

2:53

something happened to her I would need to be put

2:55

into a facility. I mean you're on

2:57

the edge. You're skating on the edge with that one

2:59

anyway. 24-hour surveillance

3:02

would be needed if

3:04

anything happened to

3:06

my baby who is somewhere

3:08

in this room right now probably terrorizing the

3:10

rabbit. A maximum

3:12

security. Yeah. Institution.

3:18

Correct. I love it. Mmm. I

3:20

love it too. Okay, so I'm very excited about

3:22

this episode. Let's kick

3:24

it off with our wine crime

3:26

pairing if you don't mind. Oh,

3:29

I don't mind at all. I wanted to

3:31

take this opportunity to discuss something that might

3:34

be a little controversial. But

3:36

we were open

3:38

to challenging conversations on

3:41

this podcast and we're

3:43

gonna have them and this won't by

3:45

any stretch of the imagination be the

3:47

most challenging conversations that we probably even

3:49

have on this episode. Oh, um,

3:51

but I while

3:53

I was looking for a

3:56

pairing for today, I saw a lot

4:00

of stuff about like

4:03

the wine mom trope.

4:06

Like the culture? Yes.

4:08

And how

4:11

it can be very problematic and

4:14

not only misogynistic, but

4:16

also sort of like waving

4:19

away or undermining

4:24

substance use disorder and kind

4:27

of making like a playful

4:30

joke out of

4:33

overworked, overstressed,

4:36

specifically like woman figures in

4:38

a household having to cope

4:42

by drinking wine, which

4:44

like as much as we love wine,

4:47

if you're, you know, it's

4:49

worth evaluating if alcohol

4:52

is something that's at the top

4:54

of your list of coping mechanisms

4:57

and that can get

4:59

into some unhealthy territory.

5:02

So I just wanted to like look into this

5:04

whole wine mom thing because it felt really new

5:06

as like a culture as

5:08

a trope, but I

5:11

just kind of wanted to get a handle on like where this

5:14

came from and what

5:16

this is all about. So there are

5:18

obviously a lot of articles

5:20

that are very opinionated about this.

5:22

I avoided those. I really, I'm

5:25

starting just like with the

5:27

basics. I'm

5:29

really just going into like the Wikipedia so we

5:31

can figure out like where this came from and

5:34

kind of what it is about.

5:36

And then people can formulate their

5:38

own opinions on the whole wine

5:40

mom thing. But it's been very much

5:42

in the zeitgeist. Like I even

5:44

remember not so long ago, a Saturday

5:47

night live sketch where I think

5:49

it was like Aidy Bryant. They

5:52

were like celebrating her birthday and everybody. It's a

5:54

really funny sketch, but everybody was giving her birthday

5:57

presents and they were all these signs. like

6:00

wooden size that are like,

6:03

not without my wine. And like

6:05

wine, it was just like, whoa,

6:07

this is like a thing. It's

6:09

a total thing. So wine mom

6:11

is a term that is used

6:13

to describe typically an upper

6:15

middle class mother, often with young

6:17

children who turns to alcoholic drinks

6:20

to cope with being overworked or

6:22

fatigued from parenting. Alternatively,

6:24

the term wine mom may also be

6:27

used as a label of self-empowerment. So

6:29

yeah, it is kind of an interesting

6:31

term because like

6:33

some folks find it problematic and offensive and

6:36

I totally understand why that would be. And

6:38

others are like, it's kind

6:40

of like reclaiming it, like making

6:42

it like a funny thing. And

6:44

like whatever helps. Right, I

6:46

also understand that. And like, as long

6:48

as you are okay and you're getting

6:51

support and you're not like harming yourself

6:53

or others. I don't give a shit

6:55

what you call yourself. You

6:58

wanna call yourself a wine mom and you're a mom who likes wine?

7:00

Fucking go off, queen. As

7:02

a label of self-empowerment or as a means of

7:04

finding acceptance by others in a social group, which

7:06

brings up like such, that's such

7:09

an interesting conversation, especially in the West

7:11

and especially in the United States about

7:13

how much of a social crutch alcohol

7:16

is. Oh yes. Alcohol

7:18

in just the baseline social

7:21

structure is

7:24

such a key component across

7:26

so many cultures. It's

7:29

wild. Yeah, it really is when you

7:31

think about it, especially like from a

7:34

global perspective, like

7:36

you go to places in the

7:38

Middle East, they don't drink

7:40

socially. Right. A lot

7:43

of other cultures don't. It's banned in a

7:45

lot of, in some places, but like, yeah,

7:47

particularly in the West, in the US, in

7:49

Europe, it's like,

7:51

ooh, if we're not drinking

7:54

when we go out, what are we doing? What are

7:56

we doing? How do we let our guard down? How do we connect

7:58

with each other? Like what? a common

8:00

threat. While this term is most

8:02

frequently used to describe parents, its usage extends

8:05

to other individuals as well. The term may

8:07

also be used in a self-descriptive manner and

8:09

it is not necessary for a third party

8:11

to label one as a wine mom. The

8:14

term wine mom first came into popular

8:16

use during the COVID-19 pandemic, though the

8:19

term's origins date back to at least

8:21

pre-2016. Factors that

8:23

have been considered relevant by commentators include

8:25

working full-time at home, so I

8:27

could totally see how the pandemic

8:30

would absolutely fuel

8:32

this kind of wine mom movement. And

8:35

your fucking kids are at home. You're homeschooling

8:37

and you're working from

8:40

home. Yeah, child care's closed.

8:42

School is closed. Or remote.

8:44

Work is remote. And

8:46

a lot of the emotional labor and

8:49

the physical and psychological labor of

8:51

running the household does

8:53

disproportionately fall to the

8:55

female figure in the house in

8:57

like nuclear homes. And

8:59

so I kind of get it why

9:02

this would come from

9:04

here. I completely get it. Loneliness

9:06

and lack of social interaction in a

9:08

home or apartment due to COVID-19 restrictions,

9:11

being a single parent, raising one

9:13

or more children, lack of

9:15

personal space or privacy. Oh,

9:17

just lock myself

9:20

in the bathroom, chug a glass

9:22

of wine. Exactly. Social pressures or

9:24

conformity to drink, general feelings of

9:26

overwhelm, the perception that wine is

9:28

a healthy alternative to other alcoholic beverages

9:30

or more socially acceptable, which we have

9:32

talked about that as well. There are

9:34

actually a lot of health benefits to

9:37

like red wine, but obviously

9:39

anything in excess is going

9:41

to have an adverse effect.

9:45

This seems to fall in a

9:47

similar zone as like the

9:49

Karen terminology, the OK Boomer

9:52

terminology. It seems to like

9:54

be a very specific subset

9:57

of like elder millennial into Boomer.

10:01

age group. And obviously that

10:03

just kind of makes sense because we

10:05

are among folks of now like

10:08

pretty common parenting age. But

10:10

yeah, I just think it's really interesting and there are

10:12

a lot of articles out

10:15

there from individuals,

10:17

specifically women who have shared

10:21

their experience. Like there's this one article

10:24

from Amanda Monti that was

10:27

published in 2021 entitled, I became

10:29

a pandemic wine mom, here's what

10:31

I learned. Another from Arena

10:33

Gonzalez, wine mom jokes could be funny, but

10:35

they mask how overwhelmed mothers are right now.

10:38

I just feel like this

10:40

kind of trope or joke

10:43

is rooted in furious

10:46

discrepancies in the like

10:49

distribution of labor, I mean,

10:51

through a like heteronormative lens

10:54

specifically between men and women

10:56

in those kind of nuclear family relationships.

10:59

And how easy it is to reach

11:02

for something that can kind of

11:05

help numb all of

11:07

that overwhelm and that pressure and stress.

11:09

And it just kind of makes you

11:11

feel normal and adult. Right. It's

11:14

like, I have control over so

11:16

little in my life, I'm just gonna,

11:18

I can control pouring myself this glass

11:21

of wine and taking a fucking moment

11:23

for myself. I'm

11:25

not a parent, but I can

11:27

definitely relate to that. I just

11:30

felt like it was an interesting concept that

11:32

fit well in this episode that I wanted

11:34

to bring up and also connects

11:36

with the pairing that I chose for

11:38

today. And also just a

11:40

reminder to folks that we

11:42

do have a lot of recovery resources on

11:45

our webpage. So if you are wondering

11:48

or considering or questioning your

11:50

relationship with alcohol or other

11:53

substances, that is okay. And

11:55

that is totally normal.

11:58

And there are so many incredible resources

12:00

to help you understand

12:02

and get a plan set

12:04

for what is going to be best

12:06

for you and your loved ones moving

12:09

forward so that you can maintain your

12:11

own health both physically and

12:13

mentally. And that's at the end

12:15

of the day, we don't care

12:17

what substances you choose to imbibe

12:21

in. We certainly imbibe in

12:24

plenty. We only

12:26

care about your health and your

12:28

wellness. And we want to support

12:31

all of the spectrum

12:33

of how that looks for people. Recovery

12:35

looks different to everyone. My husband

12:38

does not drink anymore. He quit drinking in

12:40

2020. And we're

12:42

mostly a marijuana household. And that has been

12:44

a very good decision

12:47

for him, both physically and mentally

12:49

with his health. And so there are lots of...

12:51

I feel like it should just be more normalized

12:54

and accepted that not everybody needs to drink alcohol.

12:57

Not everybody needs to buy

12:59

into the American

13:02

pressures to drink socially.

13:05

Your choices are your own and don't let anybody

13:07

judge you for any of them. As long as

13:09

you're not fucking hurting yourself or other people, we

13:12

don't give a shit what you do. We

13:14

just want you to take care of yourself. Yeah. Oh,

13:16

that's the perfect match for today's episode.

13:19

I also saw a headline recently

13:21

that weed moms are the new wine

13:24

moms. I love that. Mm hmm.

13:26

I'm a weed mom. Yeah, you are.

13:29

I'm more a weed mom now than a wine mom.

13:31

I was definitely a wine mom. But

13:35

I also in my search

13:38

found this really cool

13:41

website because I wanted

13:43

to explore some more NA

13:45

alternatives for myself. And I

13:47

found this super rad, non-alcoholic,

13:50

sparkling wine line that looks

13:52

delicious and fun as hell.

13:54

It's called Badass Mom. Oh,

13:57

and you can order it

13:59

on badassmom.com. and

14:01

they do all non-alcoholic

14:03

sparklings. You can do rose, you can

14:05

do more of like a

14:08

champagne style. They have really cute

14:10

merch and tumblers. A

14:12

lot of their websites really cute. A

14:15

lot of their marketing is for people

14:18

who are pregnant, which is awesome, but

14:20

like you don't have to be pregnant

14:22

to choose an

14:24

NA alternative when that suits you.

14:27

So these just looked really fun and then

14:29

they also have these bundles that you can buy.

14:32

They have wine party

14:35

packs. So like if

14:37

you're putting together a baby shower or just

14:39

a hangout. A baby

14:42

shower, that's such a good idea. Yeah, I mean,

14:44

I helped a friend with a baby shower and

14:46

I did a mimosa bar and it was

14:48

hard for me. Mimosas. Mimosa, it was

14:50

hard for me to find good NA

14:54

sparkling in a liquor store. I did find

14:56

some so that there would be a selection,

14:59

but this stuff looks awesome and

15:01

could be an easy, delicious

15:04

alternative if you still want to like

15:06

celebrate and have your bubbles, but

15:08

you want to avoid some of the alcohol. Badass

15:11

Mom is an incredible brand.

15:13

It looks so delicious. So

15:15

check them out at badassmom.com.

15:18

Fantastic. What a weird

15:20

wine segment, but you know what? I'm just exploring

15:24

things, you know? I'm trying things that are

15:26

new. I think it's perfect. And I think

15:28

the wine mom thing can be

15:30

a damaging trope. Yeah.

15:34

And like you said, it doesn't, it just

15:36

puts like a happy sheen on something that

15:38

could very easily escalate

15:41

into a serious problem.

15:44

Yeah. So yeah, I think it's

15:46

important to talk about not just

15:49

have it be a punchline. But

15:52

if it's your punchline, great. That's,

15:54

you do you boo. Yeah. Well,

15:59

it's like new. So I'm drinking

16:01

sparkling water right now personally.

16:03

blasts. My yeah, Huge Stanley.

16:06

But. I am sick gets bigger as

16:08

it's a little earlier. The fucking

16:10

growing something that will assess, assess,

16:12

scroll something notes that I was

16:14

at all the time. I'll definitely

16:16

be getting. My wine mama tonight

16:18

because board me and I

16:20

are. Definitely. Going to

16:23

see Tom Sandoval should be

16:25

banned. So so that it's worth doing

16:27

one of those like we're going to check.

16:29

It out so you don't have. To set

16:31

an Omen and I have my

16:33

Ariana Maddox one eight Hundred Boys

16:35

Y T shirts or. Ah

16:38

so. Ah yeah I'm I'm

16:40

saving myself for like the to

16:42

cocktails and the joint that I'm

16:45

gonna have to ninety. Really?

16:47

To cope with the sound of has. Ever

16:49

more us he's going to get so sweaty

16:52

it's how it's gonna be vial I

16:54

am not getting So as that says, I

16:56

want to keep us safe distance. I

16:59

and Blast isn't assays looks like a

17:01

trumpet. I don't want to get trumpet

17:03

blast said. I don't want to see

17:06

his nipples to clearly. I oughta experience

17:08

any droplets of any kind. Oh, Yes,

17:11

No, no spray. Know spray know missed.

17:13

So yeah of you're gonna tell me

17:15

about the murder table though because I'll

17:17

send you pics. You know I love

17:19

March or not. Get Up! By.

17:22

Any of it because I'm not giving

17:24

him. More. Mana me a picture

17:26

of. I'll send you a picture if you

17:28

want. To send him money you can venmo

17:30

me and then I'll pay. I'll get you

17:32

the merchants. London that you monster. Okay,

17:34

assess you take him you're going to

17:36

is so so I said. I don't

17:39

want to pay him more money. Oh

17:41

okay. I'm doing this as a sacrifice.

17:44

For our by Cpr.

17:46

Hobbies, It's. Like. Death.

17:49

Like.on safari are taking one for

17:51

the team. I have to

17:53

experience this moment in the cultural like guys.

17:56

And I would regret it if I didn't say

17:58

yes when asked. If I wanted to go. Well,

18:00

you're also balancing it out with seeing Phaedra on

18:02

Sunday. I am seeing Phaedra on Sunday. Oh,

18:04

God bless. It's going to be a good weekend.

18:08

All right, well, let's get to our break

18:10

so we can get to Sandoval sooner. Let's

18:12

do it. Let's hear a quick word from

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21:07

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most things. And that convenience

21:14

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21:16

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21:19

I love the laundry

21:21

tab sensation, but did you know

21:23

that like detergent pods for laundry

21:26

or even dishwashers are

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wrapped in plastic? Like that

21:31

film around the pod that

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dissolves is

21:35

plastic and it's ending

21:37

up in our oceans, rivers, soil, our

21:40

bodies. We're

21:42

eating and drinking about a credit card's

21:44

worth of plastic a week, babe. I

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can't. That's my Roman Empire. I can't

21:48

deal. I never thought thinking about

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it. So what I love about Blue Land

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is they combined that convenience of what's tossing

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a tab in the laundry, tossing a tab

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in the dishwasher, but they set out to

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treat your spending. Great. Welcome

26:53

back, and I'm

26:55

very excited for what you've cooked

26:57

up for us this week, Lucy. So,

26:59

Lucy, what is the background,

27:02

and I hope to God, psych

27:04

for mom and dearest crimes? I've

27:07

got psych because... Very

27:10

psych. Mm-hmm. So, like

27:12

we said at the top

27:14

of the episode, we have done

27:16

similar topics before. We've done mom

27:19

crimes for episode 195, and

27:21

we also did daddy crimes for 185. Yeah,

27:25

and we've done like case updates on

27:27

some like mommy dearest stuff, but we

27:29

haven't done any of... We

27:32

haven't done the case that I'm covering today. That's

27:34

for God damn sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So,

27:38

I did cover like some psychology

27:40

and some kind of mommy stuff in both

27:42

of those episodes, but

27:44

I am trying to avoid repeating. So, if

27:47

you want more of this content, check out

27:49

195 and 185. Perfect.

27:52

According to medical news today,

27:54

mommy issues often refer to,

27:57

quote, problems forming or

27:59

maintaining. healthy adult relationships due

28:01

to a person's insecure or

28:03

unhealthy relationship with their mother

28:05

or another female figure in

28:07

their childhood. This

28:10

does not necessarily mean that the mom was

28:12

the bad parent. In

28:16

fact, an overprotective or overly

28:18

permissive mother-child dynamic can have

28:20

its own kind of toxicity.

28:23

Abusive or absent or best-friendly

28:26

or super-doting or whatever the

28:28

parenting style might be can

28:31

be on either end of the spectrum

28:33

or anywhere in between. The

28:35

parent's behavior impacts how the child sees

28:37

themselves and their place in the world

28:40

as an adult. Was

28:42

this weird for

28:44

you to research as

28:47

a new parent? Like did this

28:49

thing kind of think about when

28:51

Junie gets older? I

28:54

would have to imagine it would. It's

28:57

fucking stressful. I mean parents are

28:59

incredible. I'm

29:01

not cut out for that shit. I

29:03

think so far I'm

29:06

a good mom. You're doing fucking great. You're

29:09

crushing it. But doing this

29:11

research, especially, I was just

29:14

like, I'll set her down in her

29:16

chair so I can go poop. I

29:18

don't feel like I'm abandoning her. You're

29:20

not. You're crying. It's not the same.

29:23

But like, you know, she naps on me

29:26

all the time. I'm being overly permissive. I

29:29

don't think that I'm falling into any

29:33

kind of cycle where she's going to have fucking

29:36

issues when she gets older. I

29:38

also think right now it's a little too

29:40

early to ascribe these things

29:42

because an infant's needs

29:46

are so different from a toddler and then

29:48

a preteen and then a teenager. Everything

29:51

evolves as the child gets older too. It's

29:54

definitely too early to be spoiling her. Thousand

30:00

Two percent. It's not possible to

30:02

spoil an infant. Know. Seven

30:05

every night for yeah. Like thinking about

30:07

like. The. Next few years

30:10

and ran for the next eighteen

30:12

years like until see season Adult

30:14

Senate will be really interesting to

30:16

see. Because I feel like I

30:18

am. Exactly like my mom.

30:21

So. As soon as you enter the

30:23

late relationship. With your mother to I

30:25

really do You really do? I

30:28

think I'm up. I think I'm a pretty

30:30

pretty well functioning adult. Yeah, you're doing great.

30:32

I mean, I would trust you as my emergency. Contact

30:34

I'll be emergency contact sir I my sister's

30:36

my emerged to god that and my husband

30:38

said the best and only my think I

30:41

have like your mom cell phone number of.

30:44

Us Ff, Ff, Ff. That's

30:46

fine. By. A I can name. Ten

30:50

way worse. Mom's the My

30:52

Mom oh forces or ss

30:54

admit that my Mom. But

30:57

like as a child, you look

30:59

at your mom. Your. Parents

31:01

And you're lying. Oh that. That's

31:04

how adults behave. Like,

31:06

that's how that's how I'm going to

31:08

behave. That's how I will be as

31:10

an adult. So even if it's subconscious,

31:12

even if they're very young, they're not

31:14

like actively seeking these things. That that

31:17

is what they are. They're learning by

31:19

example. Exactly. So

31:21

I'm certain that that

31:24

parenting behavior. If.

31:26

It's not great. It can

31:28

lead to that child as

31:30

an adult having a negative

31:32

self image. Low levels

31:34

of trust and other like

31:36

psychologically based issues. It's also

31:38

worth noting that mommy issues

31:41

can be affected by either

31:43

parent. So. Many times

31:45

daddy issues are seen as like a

31:47

different set of problems. And. Often

31:49

it's a girl children described as

31:51

having daddy issues and boy children

31:54

as having mommy issues. I think

31:56

daddy issues also kind of comes

31:58

across frequently as like. sexual

32:02

manifestations, whereas

32:05

mommy issues are more like dependents

32:07

and attachment

32:09

styles. Yeah. First

32:12

of all, people tend to use these terms

32:14

very casually and apply them very broadly because

32:17

they themselves are not clinical terms.

32:19

Right. Also, I know we've

32:21

talked before, it's often the opposite sex parent

32:23

that has the biggest social impact on children

32:26

and yes, we will get to Sigmund Freud,

32:28

don't worry. Oh, God. I think

32:30

that the two concepts like mommy issues

32:32

and daddy issues are sort of kept

32:35

separate because your mother arguably is the

32:37

more important parent early in a child's

32:39

life. Sure. And

32:41

so the way that

32:44

their behaviors manifest

32:46

and are reflected in the children's

32:49

psychology can be

32:52

different. Like

32:54

you were saying, attachment styles

32:56

versus how women are

32:58

taught to be respected by

33:01

men, by their dad. And

33:03

I think it's also obviously worth

33:05

noting that this conversation that

33:07

we're having is based

33:10

in research that

33:12

is more widely available and we

33:14

understand that that research really does

33:17

focus on heteronormative families. Oh, yeah. And

33:20

this is by no means a

33:22

reflection on same-sex couples

33:24

or gender-fluid couples, queer couples

33:27

and their ability to

33:29

parent or like what role they

33:31

step into for their child. Just

33:34

for the sake of this episode, things

33:37

will likely be more on the binary for

33:39

this segment because of the research that's available,

33:41

which is like problematic in and of itself,

33:45

obviously. But we only have what

33:47

we can find to work with. And

33:49

a lot of this research took place in like

33:51

the first half of the 20th century. Right. So

33:54

same-sex couples having kids was

33:57

like unheard of. Yeah. And

33:59

besides that, they were not studying

34:01

those types of relationships. Because they

34:03

were illegal. Yeah. Too

34:06

many out and proud in the open. Good

34:08

God. In 1944, psychologist

34:11

and psychotherapist John Bowlby

34:13

wrote about how the

34:15

different forms of attachments

34:18

developed with a mother in infancy

34:21

directly correlate with how adults behave.

34:23

He worked closely with developmental psychologist

34:26

Mary Ainsworth and found that specific

34:28

aspects of how a mother interacts

34:30

with their child can lead to

34:32

different attachment styles in children later

34:34

on. They found that

34:36

there are four attachment styles that can

34:39

occur in a mother-child relationship. So tag

34:41

yourself. Oh God, here we

34:43

go. We have... Take this

34:45

fun quiz. Mostly bees. We

34:48

have a secure relationship. So people

34:50

with this attachment style are able

34:52

to form secure and loving relationships

34:55

with other people. They were

34:57

shown love as a child and felt safe

34:59

and secure with their caregiver. Then

35:02

we have anxious insecure. There's mine.

35:05

People with this attachment style have

35:07

a deeply rooted fear of abandonment. They

35:12

are often insecure in their relationships and

35:14

worried that their partner will leave them.

35:17

I'm not worried that your partner is going to leave you.

35:20

I'm not necessarily either, but I definitely

35:22

have... This is

35:24

definitely my attachment style. I've

35:26

been in therapy for a long time. It's

35:29

not an abandonment issue that comes

35:31

from my parents. My parents were

35:34

wonderful, loving parents that provided for me and made

35:36

me feel loved and safe in my home. Most

35:39

of it honestly comes from medical trauma

35:41

that my dad went through when I

35:43

was a young teenager. Losing

35:46

his leg. Yeah,

35:48

losing his leg and potentially losing his life and

35:50

then eventually he did lose his life. That's

35:53

more where it came from. My

35:56

role in the household at that

35:58

time... of became

36:00

by default as sort of like an

36:02

emotional regulator because things were really intense

36:04

at our house. And like, you know,

36:06

there was depression and anxiety. Like we

36:08

had a lot going on. And

36:11

so I know that as a result of

36:13

that, something that I've worked through is like,

36:16

I am very anxious about

36:18

other people's emotions in a room.

36:20

And that definitely comes up in my marriage where I

36:22

like ask my husband all the time, like, are you mad at

36:24

me? Or like, did I do

36:27

something wrong? Like, because I'm, that's just like,

36:29

that's childhood shit that I just developed.

36:31

So it's, you know, it's worth noting

36:33

that like these attachment styles can come

36:36

from all kinds of different life

36:38

experiences and trauma that you

36:40

may experience that aren't just from, you

36:43

know, a parent. Your mother holding you when you

36:45

were in an instance. Exactly, putting you down to

36:47

shit for too long. So,

36:50

you know, it's just, these are interesting concepts,

36:52

but like, oh my God, the amount

36:54

of deep diving I've done into my attachment style of

36:57

where it comes from is bottomless.

37:00

Very self-aware. Very good that you

37:02

know this already. I'm not not

37:04

a mess. Oh, no.

37:06

But you also need a lot of validation

37:09

and tend to be clingy as is the

37:11

end of this anxious, insecure description. There it

37:13

is. I don't know that I'd call you

37:16

clingy. I'm less on the clingy end,

37:18

but I definitely need validation. And I need

37:20

like verbal communication.

37:23

And, you know, my husband has been really great

37:25

about like meeting me where I'm at and vice

37:27

versa for him. But yeah, the validation

37:29

thing, absolutely I fucking need it.

37:32

Same side. Well, you give it

37:34

too, so. I do give it. You do. You

37:38

do give validation. And

37:41

I love you for it. I

37:44

love you too. I feel so secure with you. I

37:47

know. We might have

37:49

a lot of trauma, but didn't come from

37:51

each other. No, we're good. Okay,

37:53

so the next one is avoidant

37:55

insecure. So people with this

37:58

attachment style have a fear of intimacy. usually

38:00

because they were ignored or had their

38:02

feelings invalidated by their parents. Like,

38:06

I'll give you something to cry about. Yeah,

38:08

yeah, I mean, this can come up a

38:10

lot if some parent or

38:12

both parents have kind of a short fuse or a

38:14

temper. You want to

38:16

avoid conflict, you're scared of, you know,

38:19

creating drama or getting up an adverse

38:21

reaction in your house. That's a very

38:24

real thing. And leads

38:26

to that fear of intimacy.

38:28

They tend to have difficulty

38:30

developing trusting relationships and prefer

38:32

to rely on themselves for

38:34

emotional support. Then

38:37

last but not least, we

38:39

have the disorganized insecure people.

38:43

So people sounds like me on

38:45

the surface. You were definitely that second one. I

38:48

love you. So

38:54

people with a disorganized insecure attachment style

38:56

have a combination of both anxious and

38:58

avoidant attachment styles. They can be clingy

39:00

for affection and for their partner's time,

39:02

but they also tend to push their

39:05

partners away and feel like they can't

39:07

trust them. Yeah, that's not me. They

39:09

crave love, but they're afraid to give

39:11

it and also to receive it. Do

39:14

you feel like you

39:16

know where you fall on that scale? Or do

39:18

you identify with any of those? I mean, I

39:20

feel like I'm a pretty I think I'm a

39:23

secure. I would 100% agree having been

39:25

friends with you for a very fucking long time.

39:27

Yeah, I feel like I don't have

39:29

issues trusting people.

39:32

If anything, I trust people a little

39:34

too much. As

39:36

far as like the relying on

39:39

people who prefer to rely on themselves for

39:42

emotional support, I would more

39:44

closely identify with that which would

39:46

be the avoidant insecure just because

39:50

I don't know. I just I mean,

39:52

it's also sort of like an introvert quality

39:55

characteristic, I think too. 1000%.

39:58

I think you and I both have that. Similar

40:00

quality. Of when that like worse really

40:02

stress or overwhelmed we kind of wanted

40:04

like revert in word. And

40:07

like isolate and just like take

40:09

a be. But I don't think

40:11

that's coming from a place of

40:13

insecurity and necessarily. It's is how we

40:15

process and maybe sometimes it's not healthy because

40:17

we should be asking for help. but it's

40:19

just you need a fucking. Break.

40:22

Yeah yeah. Yeah. This

40:25

is. A fucking

40:27

break. Up stuff such as

40:29

my. Mother's

40:34

day of fatigue bright. Make

40:38

Muffins! Thank you for joining us

40:40

as we process through a lot

40:43

and this episode of us were

40:45

laid it all out. Oh.

40:48

My. God. It. As should have gotten wind.

40:51

Up! Ah. Not

40:54

a regular mom and the line mom? I'm a lie.

40:56

Bob. I think for the most part you

40:58

and I are both fairly secure because the. Definitely.

41:01

Had trusting, loving, caring, safe relationships with

41:03

their parents. Yep, Growing that we're we're

41:06

very lucky. We are very lucky in

41:08

that way. Okay, so

41:10

there are five main signs of

41:12

having what we might call mommy

41:14

issues. And again,

41:16

while each case is dependent on

41:18

multiple factors specific to ones childhood

41:20

experience. Mommy. Issues can

41:23

be characterized by the

41:25

inability to experience deep

41:27

connections clinging s. The.

41:29

Inability to be affectionate, Being.

41:32

Overly critical and

41:34

also dependencies. Because

41:37

mommy issues also manifest differently

41:39

in. Men: Versus Women again

41:41

talking on the binary here. In

41:44

men, seven signs can include always

41:46

needing to say in contact with

41:48

their mother or never wanting anything

41:50

to do with their mother. Could

41:54

see I have a

41:56

good disrespectful attitude towards

41:58

women insecurity, cheating, and

42:01

or a sense of entitlement. In

42:04

women some signs can include low

42:07

self-esteem, difficulty trusting

42:09

others, having very

42:11

few female friends, and

42:15

having difficulty setting boundaries.

42:18

Interesting. So

42:21

yeah it can

42:23

manifest differently again. There's a lot of

42:25

overlap between so-called mommy issues

42:27

and daddy issues. Right. But

42:30

at the end it's just about it's

42:32

about attachment styles. Mm-hmm. So usually when

42:34

we think about mommy issues we often

42:37

think about Sigmund Freud and the infamous

42:39

Oedipus complex. Damn it.

42:41

I'm such a Freud hater. I know.

42:44

I can't. It's so

42:46

gross. Everything is just about

42:48

dicks and sex and yeah.

42:51

God. I know. So. It's

42:53

too much. According to my love

42:56

our encyclopedia of Atonica, the

42:58

Oedipus complex was proposed by Sigmund Freud as

43:00

part of his theory that

43:03

childhood can be divided

43:05

into psychosexual stages. Everyone

43:08

wants to fuck their mom. Or

43:10

their dad. So these

43:13

stages are differentiated by the child's

43:16

supposed sexual fixation on different parts

43:18

of the body. Mm-hmm. The psychoanalytic

43:20

theory refers to a desire for

43:23

sexual involvement with the parent of

43:25

the opposite sex and

43:27

a sense of rivalry with the parent of

43:29

the same sex. Okay. I

43:31

find that so disturbing. I

43:33

know. And unrealistic.

43:36

And like what fascinating, I

43:38

mean a child comes out

43:40

of your cooch, feeds

43:42

off your titty, you got to hold them a

43:44

bunch. Mm-hmm. I mean a body's

43:47

just a body. Sex is only one

43:50

part of your whole body. I mean Freud's

43:53

theories were more about him

43:55

than they were about other people. Oh yeah. I

43:57

think he got super close.

44:00

on a lot of shit and

44:02

to the point where it's like

44:04

everyone wants to have sex with their

44:06

mom and their dad like okay no

44:08

but your parental figures are often like

44:11

we talked about earlier the

44:13

example of how

44:15

adults treat each other how adults

44:17

in a romantic relationship interact with

44:19

each other like how it's you

44:21

know what the expectation is that

44:25

is completely true and makes sense yeah

44:27

I just feel like Freud takes it to

44:29

a such a gross place kids aren't

44:32

thinking about sex little

44:34

children are not thinking about sex no

44:36

and they shouldn't be they

44:38

shouldn't have anything to do with it nothing's

44:40

probably gone wrong and because like

44:43

everyone wants to explore

44:45

their body and like see what

44:47

can fit in their nature's pocket or like see

44:49

how hard they can tug their ding dong

44:52

doesn't mean they're sexual yeah

44:54

we all experience exploration figuring out

44:57

what we've got how many

44:59

how many Barbie legs you can fit

45:01

up your butt exactly four

45:05

just get it yeah

45:07

minimum minimum gross okay

45:12

so he attributed the

45:14

complex to children aged

45:16

three to five mm-hmm

45:19

the Oedipus complex and said that the stage

45:21

ended when the child started to identify with

45:23

the parent of the same sex and

45:25

repressed their sexual desires for the parent

45:28

of the opposite sex so apparently between

45:30

the ages of three and five you

45:32

start to change your if it's

45:34

a girl child you're gonna hate your mom and want

45:36

to fuck your dad oh

45:39

but when you turn five that goes away because

45:41

you identify more with your mom great

45:44

thanks Freud yeah if

45:46

the child has a decently loving and non-traumatic

45:48

relationship with their parents they will pass the

45:50

stage quickly but if they

45:52

have a traumatic relationship with their parents then

45:55

they will experience what he called

45:57

infantile neurosis which

45:59

is characterized by internalized conflict that leads

46:01

to anxiety and

46:04

adult neurosis. Okay.

46:06

Sure. This term was originally used

46:09

to apply the concept to boys,

46:11

hence Oedipus. The

46:14

equivalent in girls is called the Electra

46:16

Complex. So the Oedipus

46:18

Complex, if you weren't in

46:20

the same English class as me in

46:22

high school. And me. It's

46:25

originally named after the Greek myth of

46:27

Oedipus, the Theban king who unknowingly kills

46:30

his father and marries his mother. They

46:32

had children together. After he's been blinded.

46:34

No, he blinds himself at the end.

46:36

Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right.

46:39

He had, they had children together, but Oedipus eventually finds out the

46:41

truth about his marriage. Once he and

46:43

his mother realize they are, they are

46:46

married and their relationship to each other,

46:48

she hangs herself and he takes

46:50

off her, her broaches from her

46:53

regal dress and gouges out his

46:55

eyes. So

46:58

yeah. High school English was a

47:00

trip. A trip. So there

47:02

are some famous examples of mommy issues

47:04

in media. We

47:07

have Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho, which is a movie

47:09

that came out in 1960. In

47:12

this movie, Norman Bates of the

47:14

Bates Motel develops a split personality

47:16

after killing his controlling mother and

47:18

her lover out of jealousy. Out

47:23

of guilt and grief, he stashes his

47:25

mother's corpse and assumes her personality. When

47:28

he commits crimes against women, he becomes

47:30

attracted to. Oh, it's

47:32

such a great movie. Ari

47:35

Aster's Bow is Afraid that came out

47:37

last year. My God.

47:40

Have you seen that? Yeah, I,

47:42

I don't think I was really

47:44

following it very well. It's a

47:47

very challenging movie with a lot

47:49

of like cultural references from the

47:52

Jewish community that we may not

47:54

understand, but it's really

47:57

fucking good and it's fascinating.

48:00

I think I'm a Nookin Phoenix is badass,

48:02

but like, isn't Patti LuPone

48:05

who plays his mom? Yeah, I think so. She,

48:08

her performance. I've

48:11

never seen fucking anything like it. I'm

48:13

gonna have to watch it again. I'm gonna have

48:15

to read a review that just like thoroughly

48:17

explains it and then watch it again. Read

48:20

more about this movie and then watch it

48:22

again, but it's a challenging movie. It's a

48:24

commitment. Yeah, it's like three

48:26

hours long. It's three hours long. It's like

48:29

pretty wildly surrealist

48:31

slash realist. It's

48:36

confusing. It's very confusing. But it's

48:38

beautiful and the performances are incredible.

48:40

And if you can like take

48:43

in, yeah, the

48:46

some of the message that he's

48:48

trying to convey. It's

48:50

a fascinating movie. I loved

48:52

it. I also really like, I mean,

48:54

R.E.S. like

48:56

Midsummer and Hereditary. There

48:59

was so much

49:02

deeper into it. That's

49:04

why I can watch those movies over and

49:07

over. Correct. There's

49:09

just so much. Think Bo is Afraid

49:12

didn't do quite as well because people

49:14

were expecting something like that. Something

49:16

linear with a story that made

49:19

a lot of sense. That was easy to follow.

49:22

And this definitely falls like in

49:24

the realm of psychological horror, but

49:26

it is definitely more of

49:28

like you're getting his view

49:31

of childhood trauma and

49:33

how that affected his life. And like, you

49:35

don't know what's real that he's experiencing and

49:37

what isn't. And then she, Patti

49:40

LuPone is like actually a mastermind behind like

49:42

manipulating him and doing all this wild shit.

49:44

It's so unhinged. I love it.

49:47

It's really fucking cool. That's what I'm saying. If

49:49

I have like read something about it and can

49:51

like kind of know what to look for, what

49:53

it's just packed with

49:56

like hidden threads and thousand.

50:00

It's a cool movie. Well, in this movie,

50:02

the main character, Bo, Joaquin Phoenix, deals

50:05

with a lot of anxiety, guilt,

50:07

and sexual repression that stems from

50:09

a particularly over-involved mother-son relationship. Another

50:13

one, we have Greta Gerwig's Lady Bird. I

50:15

like that movie. Came out in 2017. Such

50:17

a sweet movie. But

50:20

in this movie, the main character, Christine, goes

50:22

through a coming-of-age situation in

50:24

which we learn more about the emotional

50:26

abuse she's experienced from her mother and

50:28

how it's impacted her. And

50:31

at the end of the movie, when she's getting

50:33

on her plane to move to, I forget, where

50:35

she moves to New York, maybe. And

50:38

the mom just keeps, she just

50:40

gets, kicks her out of the car

50:42

and the mom kind of just drives around and,

50:44

oh, it's sad. It is sad. It's

50:47

really sad. And it shows a good perspective

50:49

of not only how that affects her

50:52

daughter, but then what the mom

50:54

is losing by behaving

50:57

that way. It's

50:59

a good movie. Yeah. Yeah.

51:01

And it's also a movie that's not only about

51:03

that. No. I mean, it's

51:06

about so much. Yeah. But yeah, that's

51:08

an important part of it. And it really makes

51:10

the ending a lot more heartbreaking than it

51:14

would be without it. And

51:16

of course, I had to put in a bit

51:19

about the 1981 biographical psychological drama

51:21

American cinematic masterpiece that this episode

51:23

is named after, Mommy

51:26

Dearest. Oh my

51:28

God. I was waiting for this. This

51:31

movie is wild. And

51:34

the fact that it is

51:36

biographical. Yeah. Well, I'm

51:38

going to get to all that.

51:42

So directed by Frank Perry,

51:44

this film stars Faye Dunaway

51:46

as actress

51:48

Joan Crawford. It is

51:50

one of Faye Dunaway's most unhinged

51:53

and incredible performances of

51:56

all fucking time. It's

51:58

iconic. So I just. doing

52:00

this with my eyebrows like

52:02

subconsciously. Yes. Her brows. I

52:05

know. They're so at attention. They're

52:07

so sharp. So amazing. So

52:10

Faye Dunaway plays Joan Crawford

52:12

whose abuse was described by

52:15

her adult daughter, Christina Crawford,

52:17

in Christina's 1978 autobiography of

52:19

the same name, Mommy Dearest.

52:22

Yep. So Christina, her actual daughter wrote

52:24

a book about

52:26

how fucked up her household

52:28

was and how it was made into this

52:31

movie. Yeah. Also,

52:33

I had no idea

52:35

that this movie is often considered to

52:37

be one of the worst films of

52:40

all time. That's not true. It is

52:42

true. I don't care who said

52:44

no. I don't believe that. At the

52:46

second- I mean, I believe you that people say that.

52:48

This movie is fucking incredible and everyone who

52:50

says that can eat a pile of

52:52

shit. At the second annual Golden

52:54

Raspberry Awards, it was

52:57

nominated for nine categories. And

53:00

it won two, including worst

53:02

picture and worst actress. That's

53:05

bullshit. I have to

53:08

wonder if the subject

53:10

matter because Joan Crawford was

53:12

someone who was so revered

53:14

and protected in Hollywood. And

53:17

there's, I'm certain

53:19

controversy over these

53:21

allegations from Christine- We'll get

53:23

to it. That the

53:25

movie got panned more than it

53:27

deserved because of that. One

53:30

thing that I read

53:32

was that audiences thought

53:35

it was supposed to be a comedy. What?

53:39

Audiences were laughing because her

53:41

performance was so

53:44

outrageous and some of those

53:46

scenes were pretty ridiculous. Strap yourself in. I love

53:48

it. I mean, to me,

53:52

I've seen that movie a lot of fucking

53:54

times. I have never taken

53:56

it in as comedy. I

53:58

take it in as horror. Yeah,

54:01

it is a horror movie to me.

54:04

It's this creepy Yeah

54:08

Okay. So here's a little bit of the

54:10

background if you've not seen mommy dearest What

54:13

the fuck we'll just frame for frame

54:15

recreate it for you right now. Here we go

54:20

Okay, so Joan Crawford was a

54:22

very successful dancer and actress in the early

54:24

20th century She was

54:27

under contract at MGM and then

54:29

later She

54:31

broke that contract and went to one of the other big

54:33

production movie houses. I forgot which one.

54:35

Mm-hmm She was married to the

54:38

president of Pepsi for a while and served

54:41

on its board of directors until 1973

54:44

when she was forcibly retired after her

54:46

husband died because she was a Real

54:50

for a woman and a woman. Yeah.

54:52

Yeah She had been married

54:54

and divorced three times before the

54:56

Pepsi guy. Mm-hmm and she had

54:58

five adopted children

55:02

The oldest of these children was a girl

55:04

who was adopted in June of 1940 This

55:07

is a this is taken from

55:10

Wikipedia quote the child was temporarily

55:12

called Joan I think

55:14

while she was being adopted, but then she was

55:16

adopted by Joan Crawford So we can't have that.

55:19

Yeah, so there can only be one. So

55:21

Joan Crawford changed the girl's name

55:23

to Christina Christina's

55:26

mother was a 19 year

55:28

old unmarried girl who had

55:30

moved who had moved to LA with

55:32

her family Christina's birth

55:34

mother Contracted

55:37

with a baby broker For

55:40

Joan Crawford to adopt her

55:42

after her birth.

55:44

There was something about She

55:47

had to go through some like weird

55:49

loopholes because you can't adopt a child

55:51

from LA if you live in LA

55:53

at the time For some reason or

55:55

something like that. So they had to

55:58

like go through some weird maybe not

56:00

super legal, a baby broker. While

56:03

married to Philip Terry, who was not the Pepsi

56:05

guy, it was a different guy, the couple

56:08

adopted a son whom they named Christopher,

56:10

but his birth mother learned that the child

56:13

had been adopted by a celebrity and attempted

56:16

to blackmail Joan Crawford for money,

56:18

which resulted in Crawford

56:20

giving the child back to

56:22

his birth mother, who in

56:24

turn placed him back for

56:26

adoption. Oh, these poor kids.

56:29

The couple adopted another boy who

56:31

they named Philip Terry Jr. and

56:35

then after their marriage ended in 1946, Crawford

56:37

changed that child's name to

56:39

Christopher. Stop. So

56:42

she didn't want this, technically

56:44

the third adopted child because the second

56:46

one, she returned.

56:50

Wow. She didn't

56:52

want that boy to have her

56:54

ex-husband's name, so she changed that

56:56

child's name like into his

56:59

life. These kids. So that's Christopher.

57:01

Poor fucking kids. Who's the other

57:04

boy in the movie. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

57:07

So Joan dies on May 10, 1977 from a heart attack and

57:09

in 1978, the next year, Tina publishes a

57:16

memoir depicting her mother as a, quote,

57:18

cruel, unbalanced alcoholic mother

57:21

with Crawford's other twin daughters, all

57:25

of their household staff and

57:27

their family friends denouncing Christina's

57:29

book as sensationalized fiction. So

57:33

nobody else is backing her on her

57:35

claims that she makes in this book.

57:38

Not even Christopher? Mm-hmm. Christopher

57:41

maybe. Mm-hmm. Actually,

57:44

yes, Christopher did side with

57:48

Christina and I'll get to that. But

57:50

the other two children

57:52

who were twins, because remember,

57:54

she adopted five kids, she returned one of

57:57

them. Jesus Christ, yeah. The oldest two are

57:59

Christina and Christopher and then there's

58:01

two girls who are younger. So again

58:03

more from Wikipedia.

58:06

In the book, Christina alleges that

58:08

Joan Crawford placed far more importance

58:10

on her cinematic career than her

58:12

family life and that Joan later

58:14

was an alcoholic in the 1960s.

58:17

She also claims that Joan had sexual

58:19

affairs with various men

58:22

whom Christina was required to call

58:24

uncle. Isn't that gross? I

58:27

hate that. Christina claimed that Joan's

58:29

controlling behavior continued throughout Christina's adulthood

58:32

asserting that Joan was jealous of

58:34

Christina's acting career in the 1960s

58:36

because Christina was on a soap

58:39

opera. Yeah like a pretty

58:41

prominent one I think. It's called the

58:43

Secret Storm. Mm-hmm. And so

58:46

Joan was jealous to the point

58:48

of taking over Christina's role in

58:50

the Secret Storm while Christina was

58:52

in the hospital recovering from an

58:54

operation to remove an ovarian cyst.

58:57

That part of the movie is wild.

58:59

I know. It's wild. I

59:02

mean holy shit. I'm

59:05

definitely, I tried to be

59:07

a reasonable person and I

59:10

believe Christina

59:15

and, not but, and the truth

59:18

always lies somewhere in the middle.

59:20

This was an expression of Christina's

59:23

experience which comes

59:25

with how her memory

59:27

or her processing has been affected

59:30

by the trauma of her childhood.

59:33

And so it may not have

59:35

looked to other people in the household

59:37

the exact same way that it looked

59:39

and felt to Christina but that doesn't

59:41

invalidate her experience. That's how I feel

59:43

about it. There are also some

59:46

parts of the movie that were not in the

59:48

book and were never claimed to have happened by

59:52

Christina. They sensationalized some stuff for the movie for

59:54

sure. So like the chopping down of the

59:57

rose bush at the tree. I

59:59

did. In my house, we

1:00:02

had these hideous shrubs and I could not

1:00:04

fucking look at them anymore and I got

1:00:06

like an ADHD manic episode at like 11.30pm

1:00:09

and put on a headlamp and just went

1:00:12

outside and started digging these hideous shrubs out

1:00:14

of my front yard. Yup.

1:00:18

Your current house? Yeah. Oh my

1:00:20

god. They needed to fucking go. And

1:00:22

you know, when I get the desire

1:00:24

to do something, if I don't capitalize on

1:00:26

it then I may never get that motivation

1:00:28

again. So of course not. I fucking rolled

1:00:30

with it. But it was unhinged and

1:00:33

we were the new neighbors with the

1:00:35

headlamp holding the plants out in the

1:00:38

shroud of darkness of night. You're so

1:00:40

creepy. I love that. Yeah, I know.

1:00:43

Also the infamous wire hanger scene. Not

1:00:46

in the book. It wasn't in the book and

1:00:48

it never, it didn't happen. So

1:00:52

the book culminates with

1:00:54

Christina learning that she

1:00:56

and her brother Christopher

1:00:58

were intentionally disinherited upon

1:01:01

the death of their mother for quote

1:01:03

reasons known to them. So

1:01:06

basically she cut them out of her will right

1:01:08

before she died. Possibly

1:01:10

because she knew that Christina was writing this book. Also

1:01:14

possibly just because a lot of

1:01:16

those allegations might have been true. It could have

1:01:18

been true. Yeah, exactly. She's a

1:01:20

horrible person. Yeah. So

1:01:24

yeah, we may never know. But

1:01:27

again, if you've never seen mommy

1:01:29

dearest, please do yourself a favor.

1:01:32

Yeah. And you know,

1:01:34

Joan Crawford and whatever abuse

1:01:36

she is alleged to have

1:01:39

inflicted on her adopted children was like

1:01:41

not created in a vacuum. She's also

1:01:43

a product of a lot of trauma and

1:01:46

a lot of fucked up shit both in

1:01:48

and outside of Hollywood. And

1:01:52

so being an adopted child by

1:01:54

itself can have a lot of challenges.

1:01:57

And trauma. Yeah. So and I

1:01:59

think that the this was just not

1:02:01

just but that there's

1:02:03

obvious generational

1:02:05

cycles perpetuated here

1:02:08

on unwilling and

1:02:10

unsuspecting children that were adopted into

1:02:12

her home. I didn't know about

1:02:15

the second adoption and that

1:02:17

boy essentially being used as

1:02:19

blackmail by his birth mother

1:02:21

and then adopted

1:02:23

out again. Yeah. I

1:02:26

mean, that's fucking horrifying, horrifying.

1:02:29

And then that second boy getting his

1:02:31

name changed because she hated

1:02:33

her ex husband. I don't know. The whole thing

1:02:35

is very messy, very

1:02:37

fucking messy. So messy, good,

1:02:40

classic examples of mommy issues

1:02:42

there and extreme

1:02:45

examples. Yeah. I'm glad that you

1:02:47

and I got to dig into

1:02:50

our own, our own upbringing

1:02:53

a little bit. Oh, I

1:02:55

have absolutely loved this. So

1:02:57

thank you so much. Thank

1:03:00

you. That was pretty fun.

1:03:02

And my case is

1:03:06

horrifying. So well

1:03:11

let's get to it. I would

1:03:13

recommend bracing yourselves during

1:03:16

our quick break and

1:03:18

coming back ready for

1:03:21

more traumatic. Let's

1:03:25

do it. I'm totally ready

1:03:27

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1:03:30

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1:10:43

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and use as directed. Okay,

1:13:01

so this is

1:13:04

a brutal and heartbreaking story.

1:13:06

Okay. I know that

1:13:08

many folks have heard this. It's

1:13:10

quite famous specifically because of

1:13:13

a viral photo that we will get to. But

1:13:17

you know, in the event you're listening and you

1:13:19

have not heard this story and possibly

1:13:21

have seen the photo but don't know the

1:13:23

truth behind it, we'll break

1:13:25

it down. I don't know what you're getting

1:13:27

at. When you see

1:13:30

the photo, you'll know exactly what I'm talking

1:13:32

about. So I'm just going to dive in here. Married

1:13:35

couple Jennifer Jean Hart and

1:13:37

Sarah Margaret Hart. Sarah's maiden

1:13:39

name is Gangler, but they

1:13:41

end up married. So Gangler. Gangler

1:13:44

began their relationship at Northern

1:13:46

State University while both majoring

1:13:48

in elementary education. This

1:13:51

is in North Dakota. When they

1:13:53

read this. Well, they

1:13:55

were together but not married yet.

1:13:57

They met at college in the early.

1:14:00

Sarah graduated in 2002. Jen left school without

1:14:02

graduating. Okay. Jen

1:14:05

was the bigger personality of the two

1:14:07

women. She was confident, funny, a bit

1:14:09

in your face. Jen

1:14:12

is the Amanda if we were

1:14:14

tagging ourselves, but we shouldn't because...

1:14:16

She's the anxious, insecure attachment,

1:14:18

whatever it was. These women

1:14:21

did unspeakable things, so we shouldn't be tagging

1:14:23

ourselves. But if I were tagging myself, I'd

1:14:25

be the Jen. Okay. And the other one?

1:14:28

Yup. Sarah was more sensitive. She'd

1:14:30

be nearly in tears during high-pressure

1:14:33

days when they'd count inventory at

1:14:35

work. And I literally wrote

1:14:37

the Lucy, but we still

1:14:39

definitely are not tagging ourselves.

1:14:41

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've cried

1:14:43

doing inventory before. Who hasn't?

1:14:45

Inventory is a nightmare. It really

1:14:47

is. It's awful. It's awful.

1:14:49

Go in this dark room and count shit, and

1:14:52

if you get it off or get it wrong,

1:14:54

you have to start over again. Watch

1:14:57

me into the sun.

1:14:59

Anyway, okay. In

1:15:01

2004, the couple moved to Alexandria,

1:15:04

Minnesota, and both took jobs at

1:15:06

the now-defunct Herberger's department store. I

1:15:08

remember Herberger's. I do too. Good

1:15:11

shit. Their move to

1:15:13

Minnesota brought freedom to their relationship. They

1:15:15

had been closeted in South Dakota, calling

1:15:17

each other friends or roommates, but

1:15:19

they felt safe to come out and be open about the

1:15:22

nature of their relationship in Minnesota. But we're not allowed

1:15:24

to like them. No.

1:15:27

Okay. And these are like gays

1:15:29

on the surface that you would really

1:15:31

want to like based on their presence

1:15:33

online, and they posture—we'll get

1:15:35

to it—but they posture themselves as like

1:15:38

woke white women who like

1:15:40

to love Bernie Sanders and cared

1:15:42

about the environment. And it

1:15:44

was— I just wanted to

1:15:47

cheer for them getting to live their

1:15:49

lives openly now in Minnesota. Sure, that's

1:15:51

great. And they also are

1:15:54

not good people. Okay. Because

1:15:56

monsters come in every Gender.

1:16:00

The gender of the

1:16:02

Fowler: Political Affiliation: Religious

1:16:04

affiliation. There's always. Both.

1:16:06

Sides of the burning of I had. A. Thousand

1:16:08

percent of thousand percent it's There's

1:16:10

lots of like one set of

1:16:12

criteria. That can make people do

1:16:15

heinous shit. Same sex marriage

1:16:17

was still not legal in the state. Of Minnesota

1:16:19

in two thousand and four. Ah. At

1:16:22

that time, but they committed to each other

1:16:24

and started making plans to expand their family

1:16:26

in the summer of Two Thousand Four, they

1:16:28

temporarily fostered. A fifteen year old girl will

1:16:30

panic. Get back to her a little later.

1:16:33

Oh My. God. I know A Cases. Yeah.

1:16:37

This was a on the surface,

1:16:39

a joyful and exciting experience for

1:16:41

them. And solidified that they

1:16:44

wanted. To adopt children. So

1:16:47

Thera continued working had Harbors while

1:16:49

Jan works miscellaneous odd jobs before

1:16:51

becoming a stay at home mom

1:16:53

and two Thousand and Six and

1:16:55

preparation for the adoption of three

1:16:57

siblings and two thousand and six.

1:16:59

The children were named Marquees Hannah

1:17:01

and Abigail. Ah markets are. Marcus

1:17:03

I'm sorry Susie Marcus. In two

1:17:05

thousand and eight, they adopted three

1:17:07

more children also siblings divots age

1:17:09

Jeremiah. And Sierra. These. Are

1:17:12

all young black children ranging in age from

1:17:14

two to six. Years old at the time of

1:17:16

their adoption. And it is relevant

1:17:18

to. Acknowledge of the children that the

1:17:20

children were black and the adoptive mother's

1:17:22

white because racism is very much involved

1:17:24

in this case, Is. Also insidious

1:17:27

and. Ever presence and. Will

1:17:30

get the how it pertains here. So the

1:17:32

now family of. Eight move

1:17:34

to Woodland Washington. Where

1:17:36

Sarah takes a job as manager.

1:17:38

At the local polls. There's eight

1:17:40

of them because the child that they

1:17:42

were fostering was not adopted. By

1:17:45

them which will get to So they adopted six. Children.

1:17:47

As the two of them, the eight

1:17:49

of them moved to Woodland Washington. So

1:17:51

one of the siblings. Know.

1:17:54

That the first. Child: The sixteen

1:17:56

year old girl that they were a

1:17:58

loss rain with.a sibling? Okay, And.

1:18:00

They did not adopt her other. But.

1:18:02

They adopted two sets of siblings three

1:18:04

and three from two separate family that

1:18:06

it okay still devoted to becoming legally

1:18:08

married, but not able to do so

1:18:10

in Washington at that time. The entire

1:18:13

family traveled together to Connecticut for Sarah

1:18:15

and Jan to wed and two thousand

1:18:17

and nine at that point they have

1:18:19

been together for ten years. They then

1:18:21

returned home to Washington and life continues

1:18:23

on. But folks in their community. Started.

1:18:25

To notice some red flags in their parenting

1:18:28

style? According to a child welfare report

1:18:30

from Oregon, Jen is strange

1:18:32

yourself. From those who criticize or commented

1:18:34

on her parenting and Sarah followed suit.

1:18:37

Quote. Jen wouldn't have anything to do with

1:18:39

you if you disagreed with her said one relative.

1:18:41

But to get a clear picture of what exactly

1:18:43

these red flags were, we need to back up.

1:18:46

And start with their foster child. So.

1:18:49

Prior to adopting. The. Hearts

1:18:51

had fostered a fifteen year old girl in the

1:18:53

summer of two thousand for the foster that had

1:18:55

brought so much joy and confirmed they wanted to

1:18:58

adopt a family. Well, according to a

1:19:00

coworkers last friend. They. Immediately started

1:19:02

complaining about this child. A fifteen year

1:19:04

old foster child. Like things are not

1:19:06

going well for that kid. Ah, If.

1:19:09

You are in the system at all but

1:19:11

like. Imagine the trauma that

1:19:13

that poor child brought into their household

1:19:15

and these parents. Are foster

1:19:17

parents are just bitching about her?

1:19:19

Say things like quote sees the

1:19:21

worse. And. Saying that she would

1:19:23

eat food out of the garbage which is

1:19:26

something that this little girl who is our

1:19:28

a woman denied ever happening. She was still

1:19:30

being fostered by the Hearts when they were

1:19:32

planning to adopt the first set of siblings.

1:19:35

And. According to her, the hearts had told her

1:19:37

that they would foster her until she aged.

1:19:39

Out at eighteen. And. Showed her

1:19:42

pictures of the children they were planning on

1:19:44

adopting talking about how she would be a

1:19:46

big sister and she would need to said

1:19:48

a good example for them She and it

1:19:51

was not excited. Yeah it was very exciting

1:19:53

for this child who is looking forward to

1:19:55

having allies in her home and having family

1:19:57

in the form of siblings. And

1:20:00

a week before their first three children

1:20:02

were due to arrive, the heart dropped

1:20:04

this girl off at a therapist appointment

1:20:07

and never picked her up. Oh My.

1:20:09

God are they left her there! That

1:20:12

is. So. Cruel.

1:20:15

That. They had the therapists

1:20:17

tell her that. The. Hearts

1:20:19

would not be coming back for her and

1:20:21

when she was transferred to another foster home,

1:20:23

her belongings were already there, making clear that.

1:20:26

The. Hearts had planned this out and

1:20:28

just not told her oh my god

1:20:31

that is So Sox. It's so cruel.

1:20:33

It's so cruel. Oh My. God. She

1:20:36

would later tell the Seattle Times about

1:20:38

feeling abandoned and devastated. She had lived

1:20:40

with the hearts for less than a

1:20:42

year and was told that she'd be

1:20:44

saying and getting siblings and they that

1:20:47

within her last stop before she aged

1:20:49

out. Yep! This is this,

1:20:51

is fucking heartbreaking and bubbles. Up like

1:20:53

a rage in made I. Can't.

1:20:56

Put. Into words how. Some.

1:20:59

People just treat children like they're

1:21:02

disposable. And these are the most vulnerable.

1:21:04

Children among us and need to

1:21:06

be taken. It was so much

1:21:08

care and of competence. And

1:21:10

commitment and not be further victimized like

1:21:13

that. Yeah, and you dumped her out

1:21:15

a therapists office? And transferred up.

1:21:17

Sent Oliver sit to a new foster home. That's.

1:21:19

A little off all it is Macys a system.

1:21:22

I fucking some. It's. The.

1:21:24

First three siblings adopted were marked as

1:21:26

who is eight, Hannah who was for

1:21:28

and Abigail who was two and two

1:21:31

thousand six from Colorado County in Texas.

1:21:34

Their. Placement came on March four, two

1:21:36

thousand and Six and they were adopted

1:21:38

that same September. So September of Two

1:21:40

Thousand Six, they were legally adopted. The

1:21:43

second three siblings to be adopted were

1:21:45

Us Sierra, Jeremiah, and of Aontais. Sierra

1:21:47

was three. Jeremiah was for advance A

1:21:49

was six and they were from Houston,

1:21:52

Texas. So their biological mother, the biological

1:21:54

mother of the second set of siblings

1:21:56

had lost custody due to substance abuse

1:21:58

issues in August. The two Thousand Six. The.

1:22:01

Children were initially place with

1:22:03

their aunts, Priscilla Celeste, seen

1:22:05

under the condition that they

1:22:07

not have contact with their

1:22:09

biological mother, Priscilla. Loved. These.

1:22:12

Children. She Wanted. These children. She moved

1:22:14

into a five bedroom apartment in Houston

1:22:16

to accommodate them all. But

1:22:19

she was also. Taking on

1:22:21

the role of a single mother as she was. Had

1:22:23

to work full time to. Support.

1:22:26

These kids. As. You that a

1:22:28

desperate situation? And got called into work.

1:22:31

As she found herself in a

1:22:33

bind for childcare and have their

1:22:35

biological mother who was in recovery

1:22:37

and not using Come In and

1:22:39

Baber babysit. but this coincided with

1:22:41

a visit from a case worker.

1:22:43

It was just like totally random

1:22:45

that a caseworker showed. Up while the

1:22:47

biological mother was there. That. So

1:22:49

sad when shit like that happens and it's

1:22:52

like walking tragic. I. It and

1:22:54

so I understand and appreciate that there

1:22:56

are caseworkers involved and stuff like that,

1:22:58

but it's like she's as the wrong

1:23:00

place wrong time that really set it

1:23:03

really sucked set up in they've really

1:23:05

fuck shit up. And I

1:23:07

obviously it at that Children's

1:23:10

best interests will always be

1:23:12

is. Always needs to be

1:23:14

the priority. And I think

1:23:16

it can be argued that the children

1:23:19

having contact with their biological mother. Who

1:23:21

is actively in recovery and

1:23:24

working on you know, sweaty

1:23:26

never her substance use disorder.

1:23:29

Is. In the children's best interests

1:23:31

I think sometimes. The courts as

1:23:33

don't. Have the capacity for

1:23:35

nuance in these situations.

1:23:38

And now because. They

1:23:40

are biological mother came to baby

1:23:42

sit. For. A few hours.

1:23:45

And. Yelling knowing what we

1:23:47

know happens in this case

1:23:49

I'll is it's just sit.

1:23:51

It's fucking sad. It's a

1:23:54

fucking sad So. Because

1:23:56

of this visit. That. Shoulder

1:23:58

or removed from. Mccullough.

1:24:00

Scenes Care. And. This

1:24:03

prevented Priscilla so a scene from

1:24:05

obtaining permanent custody of the children.

1:24:07

They couldn't even be adopted. By.

1:24:10

A sable member of their family who

1:24:12

wanted them. And they

1:24:14

had been with her for only six months. And

1:24:17

then in another six months they would be

1:24:19

moved across the country to start living in

1:24:21

Minnesota with the hearts strangers white women. Would.

1:24:23

Have never met. Yeah Priscilla continue to

1:24:25

fight for the children for three and

1:24:28

a half years but with stymied at

1:24:30

every turn. She thought the help of

1:24:32

attorney Saw the Jones who after reviewing

1:24:34

and taking her case felt strongly that

1:24:36

racism in the foster system was playing

1:24:38

a role here. with the Powers that

1:24:40

be ultimately decided that to progressive white

1:24:42

mothers in Minnesota Us would give these

1:24:44

kids have better life than any of

1:24:46

their black family members. Quote. I

1:24:48

don't believe that Missile A Scene had ever

1:24:50

had as much as a traffic ticket. She

1:24:52

went to work, home, and church. She says.

1:24:55

The. Court seem to have had a complete

1:24:57

disregard for her. Sherry David, the children's

1:24:59

birth mother who had been cleaned from

1:25:02

her cocaine addiction for eight years said

1:25:04

quote there so quick to sas children

1:25:06

from people like us She said, but

1:25:08

once they're adopted, they don't even check

1:25:10

on the children and this case highlights

1:25:12

serious problems in the child welfare system

1:25:14

with the sammich racism playing a huge

1:25:16

role and lack of ongoing care playing

1:25:18

another. So posts in our system. Once

1:25:20

a child is adopted, we equate it

1:25:23

with success and there's very little follow

1:25:25

up. Said University. Of Michigan Law professor

1:25:27

of Civics on Peron who advocates

1:25:29

for children's rights. Quote. We

1:25:31

actually know very little about the

1:25:34

well of how kids from foster

1:25:36

care do after their adoptive. That

1:25:38

is to true. And. Release

1:25:40

Theory. So. Couple that

1:25:42

lack of follow up with like white

1:25:44

privilege and things that are bound to

1:25:47

fall through the cracks. And.

1:25:50

We. Get. Into a situation

1:25:52

like this. Quote for the

1:25:54

hearts: It seems likely that their

1:25:56

whiteness netted them multiple passes despite

1:25:58

all the warnings. Rob Michigan.

1:26:00

State University professor Cc Patton in The

1:26:03

Washington Post another an issue in this

1:26:05

case, And my god, there are so

1:26:07

many. Was. The agency that

1:26:09

shoulder were adopted through. Some

1:26:11

months after the adoptions are finalized,

1:26:13

september of two thousand and nine

1:26:15

a private adoption agency was has

1:26:17

called Permanent Family Resource Center located

1:26:19

Fergus Falls, Minnesota. With. Cited

1:26:21

for dozens of violations including failures

1:26:23

to conduct adequate Home studies in

1:26:26

September of two thousand and nine

1:26:28

the split the state put P

1:26:30

F R C is operating license

1:26:32

on the to your conditional status

1:26:34

and action. That quote indicates repeated

1:26:36

and serious violations of licensing. Sanders.

1:26:38

According to a spokeswoman for the Minnesota Department of Human.

1:26:40

Services. And then and twenty

1:26:43

twelve p Frc was shut down entirely.

1:26:45

For dozens more such violations.

1:26:47

Jesus and this is the agency

1:26:49

that the Heart family was working

1:26:51

with. So.

1:26:53

So much stuff just got overlooked. They

1:26:55

just didn't care now. If you

1:26:57

haven't already been thinking this, You

1:27:00

might be wondering how did this family afford six

1:27:02

children with Sarah being the only one with a

1:27:04

job. Working now and polls. As.

1:27:07

An assistant manager and. Or. In Iran forty five

1:27:09

grand a year while Jan was a stay

1:27:11

at home, parent allegedly home schooling the children.

1:27:14

Will Sarah and then appeared to bring

1:27:16

in as much as forty one thousand

1:27:18

additional dollars a year from various payments intended

1:27:20

for the children's. Well being through

1:27:22

various programs. The family received

1:27:24

two thousand dollars a month in

1:27:26

unspecified quote adoption assistance. Had.

1:27:28

Collected approximately two hundred and seventy

1:27:30

thousand dollars from the state of

1:27:32

Texas. And. To of the children yielded

1:27:35

about eleven thousand a year from the. Children's.

1:27:37

Quote stepfather who is still paying

1:27:39

child support so Texas allegedly early

1:27:41

said this time holds parents responsible

1:27:43

for children in foster care, but

1:27:45

it's unclear why these payments continued

1:27:48

after adoption. There. Seem to be

1:27:50

endless systemic missteps in this case that.

1:27:52

Just a loud. The.

1:27:54

Hearts to continue. Not only.

1:27:57

Profiting. Off of the children it seemed.

1:28:00

It seems very clear to me. That.

1:28:03

The money was an incentive

1:28:05

and they continuously sought. Adoption.

1:28:08

Through this sketchy agency

1:28:10

in Minnesota that with

1:28:12

source children essentially through

1:28:15

Texas has had these

1:28:17

lucrative kickbacks. That. Is

1:28:19

so creepy. Like I underlined why

1:28:21

there are incentives to foster and

1:28:23

adopt a dead horse of cares

1:28:25

that support is is necessary. But

1:28:27

ah, there are a lot a

1:28:30

lot of people who just use

1:28:32

it as like of Saucer Farm.

1:28:34

Will. right? And it's just

1:28:36

another points of. Frustration

1:28:39

and anger that

1:28:41

we have this

1:28:43

trope created. About the

1:28:45

quote: unquote Welfare Queen. About

1:28:48

specifically black and brown people

1:28:51

abusing state and federal support

1:28:53

systems and cheating the system.

1:28:55

While the hearts to what

1:28:57

you know affluent nice white

1:28:59

ladies are fucking doing this

1:29:01

in a really damaging way.

1:29:03

Yeah, right under the noses

1:29:06

of all of these systems

1:29:08

and no one even fast

1:29:10

and I about it it

1:29:12

says that the that this

1:29:14

disparity is. So obvious

1:29:16

in this case. And highlights

1:29:19

so many issues. It's

1:29:21

hard to a fuckin' clock all of them and

1:29:23

I know that I will miss them because. I'm.

1:29:27

Also. A white woman. But it's it's

1:29:29

like it's important to look at this shit.

1:29:31

Most families who adopt children how to foster

1:29:33

care from Texas get monthly payments that ranged

1:29:36

from four hundred five hundred, Forty five dollars

1:29:38

per child to help cover care costs until

1:29:40

the tell turns eighteen, which is likely why

1:29:42

all six or a doctor from. Texas. They

1:29:44

weren't exactly raking in cash from these

1:29:47

adoptions, but the hearts did have debts

1:29:49

and some financial troubles and these financial

1:29:51

incentive kept. Them afloat so.

1:29:54

The systemic red flags have been glaring.

1:29:56

But. Alongside all this

1:29:58

so worthy per. Red flags

1:30:00

with the hearts specifically Jen. In

1:30:03

a two thousand C was like be obsessed

1:30:05

with social media and a two thousand six

1:30:07

am. and that. The Ass. and

1:30:09

yeah, and it's you. The other

1:30:11

six Facebook posts. Jan dramatically described

1:30:13

her first night as a mother

1:30:16

of three. Saying. Abigail urinated

1:30:18

everywhere and gas search and

1:30:20

falling down the stairs. Hannah

1:30:22

smeared feces on the walls

1:30:24

and gorge yourself with food

1:30:26

until she needed the heimlich,

1:30:28

resulting in episodes of projectile

1:30:30

vomiting. Market. She said hit

1:30:32

his head on a closet wall and

1:30:35

in multiple voices claim to be possessed

1:30:37

by demons. Yes, see and Sarah, We're

1:30:39

committed to healing the kids over time.

1:30:42

Quote: if not us who she wow

1:30:44

my god over the years and we

1:30:46

have no way of knowing if fucking

1:30:49

any of that happens like sure. Maybe

1:30:51

they had a rough night the first

1:30:53

like not burn and and your first

1:30:55

night as a mother. Of. Six.

1:30:59

Yeah. He. To.

1:31:01

How easy to do. Think

1:31:03

it was gonna be right,

1:31:05

but like it's pretty well

1:31:07

understood that see fabricated. A lot

1:31:10

of sit on Facebook to pay to

1:31:12

a very specific. Picture.

1:31:14

Of a white savior couple who

1:31:16

had taken in these black children.

1:31:19

If and they were so

1:31:21

rumbles. Yup. And. Their.

1:31:23

Overcoming and ceiling them it's at I

1:31:26

want to fuck unwra my hero. It's

1:31:28

so gross. Over the

1:31:30

years, Jen and cultivated a

1:31:32

carefully curated social media presence

1:31:34

that portrayed her family as

1:31:36

socially conscious and most importantly,

1:31:38

Happy and healthy. quote a

1:31:40

try. But yeah, that wouldn't

1:31:42

be broken apart by an

1:31:44

uncaring world filled with prejudice.

1:31:47

Her. Social media posts were filled with

1:31:49

photos and videos of the family on

1:31:51

cross country adventures and at the various

1:31:53

festivals they attended as a cohesive unit.

1:31:56

One. Person referred to as and

1:31:58

hard as it yeah they like

1:32:01

took them the music festivals and

1:32:03

chef.parading around here legally older and

1:32:05

literally that's what these women are.

1:32:08

Do I hate it, is sick,

1:32:10

It's a city, is fucking racism.

1:32:13

Just the sort of or commodities to

1:32:15

them. One person referred to Jenn Heart

1:32:17

as a cult master poster her long

1:32:20

all mind diatribes filled with her thoughts

1:32:22

and feelings about raising a happy family

1:32:24

and the challenges of modern day society.

1:32:26

So now we've arrived at the famous.

1:32:28

Photo that I referred to at the top of the case as

1:32:30

in the is on the drives and I believe it will be

1:32:33

on the blog. And Twenty fourteen during

1:32:35

the protests in Portland. from the

1:32:37

Ferguson decision, which was following a

1:32:39

grand jury's decision, not. To indict the

1:32:41

white officer who killed Michael Brown and unarmed.

1:32:43

Black Man and Ferguson Missouri This

1:32:46

photo were. A. Photo of

1:32:48

the volunteers and twelve. Years old hogging

1:32:50

a white pop went viral and was labeled.

1:32:52

The hog felt around the world in

1:32:54

the photo advance. A is crying and

1:32:56

everyone assumed it was because of the

1:32:58

emotion of the protests and the impact

1:33:01

of this hug. And in

1:33:03

reality he was crying because. His

1:33:05

adoptive mother forced him to take

1:33:08

the photo against his will. He

1:33:10

didn't wanna do it. So.

1:33:12

That she could use per black children

1:33:14

for social media cloud. but she got

1:33:17

more than she bargained for. And

1:33:19

the children had our had are already being

1:33:21

abused at this point, so like that's already

1:33:23

going on behind the fucking scenes. Then she forces

1:33:25

him to take this. Photo and it's like. Imagine

1:33:28

that child. Who's.

1:33:31

In. Forced to embrace

1:33:33

someone that in a perfect. World.

1:33:36

He could tell what's happening.

1:33:39

And they could help him. Knowing.

1:33:42

Because. There had already been visits

1:33:44

and reports that. Came. To

1:33:46

nothing knowing that even if

1:33:48

he did, Try. To get

1:33:50

help from that officer in that moment, he

1:33:52

wouldn't fuck and done anything any didn't want

1:33:54

to take the fucking photo anyway. and the

1:33:56

context of just As Ferguson Riots and all

1:33:59

of that. Child and old enough

1:34:01

to know what the fuck is

1:34:03

going on. For. Us: It's

1:34:05

it's it's. The. Sell side.

1:34:07

My like, don't have, I don't have words for it.

1:34:09

It's horrifying. So Jen got more

1:34:12

than she bargained for Jen. She

1:34:14

had this like inner conflict with.

1:34:16

Wanting. To posts all the time but not wanted

1:34:18

to get too much attention so she didn't actually

1:34:20

likes the attention that this photo brought to her

1:34:22

family. And my theory is she. Doesn't want some

1:34:25

of eyes on her that the cracks will

1:34:27

show and the abuse of the children will

1:34:29

be revealed. Idea that's why had one all

1:34:31

the attention. Else would it be once

1:34:33

she wants to keep that social

1:34:35

media presence right on that line

1:34:37

so they can maintain the facade

1:34:39

without having too many people looking

1:34:41

at the family. Wow. So.

1:34:43

After this, he actually went on a social media

1:34:45

hiatus for about six months, and this prompted their.

1:34:48

Move from Minnesota to Washington. To

1:34:50

they were like to well known around here

1:34:52

in their community. After that photo the social

1:34:55

media shit so fucking cringe at service level

1:34:57

on it's own. But like knowing the abuse

1:34:59

of these shows were suffering behind closed doors

1:35:01

makes it that much slicker. There was. Like

1:35:04

I said before, there was a very strange

1:35:06

juxtaposition. Were. Jan. Seem to crave the

1:35:08

attention perhaps due to social media as

1:35:10

ability to curated to say exactly what.

1:35:12

She wanted and and put out this

1:35:15

image of her family mix with a

1:35:17

dislike of the spotlight. Like I said

1:35:19

breaths due to the public scrutiny. Tearing.

1:35:21

Apart. Social. Media lies.

1:35:24

As she kept putting them in the spotlight.

1:35:26

Like sickly. A house that

1:35:29

student fucking and they they possess holder

1:35:31

so much in the six black children.

1:35:33

And then I mean the third Sas

1:35:36

with maintaining this image of like white

1:35:38

Savior as a yeah, these white savior

1:35:40

isn't it. It

1:35:42

has taken over. Their

1:35:45

entire fucking. Life.

1:35:47

So they they appeared in the hugged

1:35:49

around the world they are in like

1:35:51

music, festival, photography there and local newspapers.

1:35:54

They were in the background of Bernie

1:35:56

Sanders speech when the bird. Sat.

1:35:59

On the pie. Yeah.

1:36:01

Oh My. God. A and the other all

1:36:03

in their Bernie t shirts and like he's

1:36:05

meeting them. And one of the photos. Oh

1:36:08

My. God. And he obviously had no

1:36:10

fucking idea for yeah, You

1:36:12

know, but like that this was the

1:36:14

image that they were putting out there.

1:36:16

All that blameless says little hair. Yeah

1:36:19

also Jen was one of

1:36:21

those fucking annoying online vegetarian

1:36:23

proselytizer that like would share

1:36:25

anecdotes about the families vegetarian.

1:36:27

Lifestyle online that yourself got

1:36:30

in there. Were right, it's like

1:36:32

you do you. But. I don't

1:36:34

don't force me to for to read about

1:36:36

it but in their woodland home. Ah so

1:36:38

like. Investigators had found

1:36:40

this after the fact. chicken Beef

1:36:42

pork filled a bunch of the

1:36:45

families for his. Part. County

1:36:47

investigators found the families. Fridge. Stocked with

1:36:49

hot dogs, ham, Large packs a ticket

1:36:51

breath. large roles of ground beef like

1:36:53

the freezer. had corn dogs frozen to

1:36:56

lobby a pizza sacral all the good

1:36:58

shit yell good shit. This is like

1:37:00

I know that this doesn't fucking matter

1:37:02

but it's just. One more layer of

1:37:04

house full of fucking shit. These women

1:37:06

were. Yeah. Like. You couldn't

1:37:08

believe that god damn word they said. Anzus.

1:37:11

The image that they're trying so hard

1:37:14

to put out there. Is

1:37:16

devastatingly predictable, Everything

1:37:19

she was posting with utter bullshit

1:37:21

including this gag inducing posts from

1:37:23

May Twenty thirteen. When the family relocated

1:37:25

from Washington to Oregon, And

1:37:27

see posted an announcement saying traded

1:37:29

in the television for the best

1:37:31

big screen available planet Earth. Ah,

1:37:35

Don't. Suck my

1:37:37

but. I know, but they had multiple Tv

1:37:39

that were recovered from their home so it's like

1:37:41

okay this. Whatever. I.

1:37:44

Is insufferable I can. She also wrote

1:37:47

more than once about the abuse of

1:37:49

world. That are children had left behind.

1:37:51

She. Described avant his birth. In early

1:37:54

childhood and twenty twelve. Same quote.

1:37:56

Born into a world of drug

1:37:58

pumping through his newly born. body,

1:38:00

weapons, and extreme poverty, one

1:38:02

would assume his future was

1:38:05

bleak. By the time

1:38:07

he was four, he had smoked,

1:38:09

consumed alcohol, handled guns, been shot

1:38:11

at, and suffered severe abuse and

1:38:13

neglect." Devontae's birth

1:38:15

family has since come forward and

1:38:18

denied all of these allegations. She

1:38:20

probably doesn't know jack shit about

1:38:22

what this- No! She fucking made it up!

1:38:25

Yes. She made it up! Attorney

1:38:28

Shonda Jones, again, who represented

1:38:30

their aunt Priscilla, said Hart's

1:38:32

account was completely false. False.

1:38:34

Quote, those are all lies that did

1:38:37

not happen. Devontae was not born on

1:38:39

drugs. I've never heard anything about him

1:38:41

being shot at or anything like that.

1:38:43

The adoptive mother fed a lie to

1:38:46

the public. She fed into a stereotype

1:38:48

that reinforced other people's racism. Yeah. Actually,

1:38:51

when you were reading her post, I was

1:38:53

thinking of that Elvis Presley song. In

1:38:55

the ghetto. Mm-hmm. It's a

1:38:57

beautiful song. Race is fucking shit. But the

1:38:59

lyrics are so gross. So fucking

1:39:01

racist! Yeah. Which, like, we've

1:39:04

talked about Elvis. I don't need to

1:39:06

read this Elvis. Many of

1:39:08

her posts touched on race, politics, and trips

1:39:11

that the family went on. Many felt that

1:39:13

the children were forced to perform for the

1:39:15

camera and had questions about what was happening

1:39:17

behind the scenes. One allegation

1:39:19

of child abuse from 2013 touched upon

1:39:21

Jennifer's use of Facebook, saying that,

1:39:24

quote, the kids pose and are

1:39:26

made to look like one big happy family. But

1:39:28

after the photo event, they go back to looking

1:39:30

lifeless. No. Which is so

1:39:33

awful. Lifeless. I mean, imagine

1:39:35

seeing that play out in a public space or

1:39:37

in any space. Yeah. Those kids

1:39:40

know. They know they're being

1:39:42

used as props. They absolutely knew. And that

1:39:45

compounds and is part of the abuse. Yeah.

1:39:47

Oh, yeah. Another person who

1:39:49

knew the family reported that Jennifer Hart liked

1:39:51

to, quote, parade the children around at music

1:39:54

festivals and staged them for photographs, but then

1:39:56

gave them little attention otherwise. Sarah

1:39:58

Hart also was described. In the document as

1:40:01

being quote very cold to the children. One.

1:40:03

Coworker of Sarah's told deputies that she

1:40:05

caused spoke very fondly of Jennifer by

1:40:08

another calls employee. Recalled how Sarah said

1:40:10

that the hard shoulder and her wife

1:40:12

emotional stress. And. That Jennifer Hussein

1:40:14

at home. While Thera works were often. Paul.

1:40:17

About the kids making her crazy and

1:40:19

arguing with them lose All these different