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10th, 2024 at the O Theatre.

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show is at eight. We will have

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you might recall the last time we

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did a live show in Denver. I

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hope you do recall, because I barely do.

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I recall. You

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might not recall. I barely recall. The

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last time we were in Denver, we... We

1:00

flew too close to the sun. We

1:02

activated fully. So

1:05

that was a trip. Literally. So

1:08

this one is bound to be

1:10

just as wild, but maybe slightly

1:12

less messy because our tolerance is

1:14

much higher these days. I'm high

1:17

right now, so get your tickets

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baby! Whining

1:32

Crime contains graphic and explicit content

1:34

which may not be suitable for

1:36

some listeners. Other discretion

1:39

is advised. and

2:00

unleash our their worst Minnesota

2:02

accent. You darn tootin' we

2:04

do. Darn tootin', this

2:06

is a big week for us.

2:09

Oh my gosh, as the crawl

2:11

flies, we're heading into Hot Girl

2:13

Weekend. We've got, we've been busy

2:15

this week. Very busy, we got

2:18

our happy hour tonight. Not that

2:20

anyone listening to this now cares.

2:22

Because that, this is like a

2:24

month ahead, but whatever, it's fine.

2:27

Whatever. We're pumped. We're jazzed. We're

2:29

crawlsin'. We're fuckin' on

2:31

the ball. Yeah. It's got a

2:33

cool episode for you today. But

2:35

first, I'm Lucy. Oh, I'm Amanda.

2:39

And today we have... It's

2:42

a very special fan pick. It's a very special

2:44

fan pick from a very special fan. This

2:50

one was chosen by MJ, who

2:53

is our very talented, one of

2:55

our very talented researchers and writers,

2:57

who helps me with my cases.

3:01

Yeah, MJ started like a

3:04

year ago. Yeah, she's a badass.

3:06

She's a badass. We met her

3:08

in New York City. That

3:10

was so sweet. She met my

3:12

mom. Oh, the cutest. And

3:14

she recently graduated college with

3:17

like, I don't know,

3:19

she's so fuckin' smart. Yeah. And

3:21

this episode is sort of an extension

3:24

of that because the topic

3:26

is banned books. Oh man,

3:28

such a, such a hat

3:31

applicable topic. Not just now, but

3:34

it feels like always. Yeah.

3:37

Folks are always trying to ban literature. This

3:39

is, these are some especially trying times.

3:41

And we're gonna learn a lot about

3:44

it today because according to MJ, quote,

3:46

this topic has literally taken a year

3:48

and a half away from my life.

3:50

I published a paper and then

3:52

wrote my thesis on this. Damn

3:55

girl. And I will put a

3:57

link to MJ's published paper. in

4:00

the notes, which will be on the blog in case you

4:02

want to go read it. It is

4:05

very in depth. Yeah. She's

4:07

just, she says she's there. We're just

4:09

gonna spend like four hours today reading

4:12

MJ's paper. Just

4:14

kidding. No. Well,

4:17

kind of. Okay, two

4:19

hours, calm down. Well,

4:24

before we get to banned books,

4:26

which I know we're gonna have

4:28

a lot to say about,

4:30

I'm sure we will. Amanda, what's

4:32

our wine crime pairing? I

4:35

have paired today's episode with tooth

4:37

and nail Destinata Serra. Look

4:39

how gorgeous this bottle is. Oh

4:41

my. She's a beaut, she's a

4:43

beaut, beautiful color. Like look at

4:46

that, that pinky red.

4:49

I'm a big fan. I picked this because

4:51

I was really inspired by my case

4:53

today and how folks throughout history and

4:56

currently have fought tooth

4:58

and nail to preserve

5:01

their histories and their culture and

5:03

how incredibly important the written word

5:05

is to that preservation, which

5:07

I know we're gonna get to. It's book

5:10

banning is fucking wild and the resistance

5:13

to work against that is

5:16

so fucking inspiring and cool. But

5:19

before we dive in to all of

5:21

that, a little bit about this gorgeous

5:24

wine. This is a 100% Serra from Santa

5:26

Barbara County. You're

5:29

gonna get fresh fruity aromas

5:31

of boysenberry, plum, cranberry, dark

5:33

red, wild berries. You can

5:35

really see that like red

5:37

berry in the color, which

5:40

I'm excited about. It's very

5:42

red. But it's balanced

5:44

out with some herbaceous

5:46

notes like anise, anise, peppercorn.

5:50

The website boasts that the

5:53

palette is loaded with tension

5:55

and energy, delivering blue fruit

5:57

flavors, interlaced with white pepper,

5:59

exotic coffee. bean and earthy notes.

6:01

This is a rounded mouth feel that

6:03

gains lift with juicy acidity on the

6:06

finish. I am super pumped about

6:08

it. It also uses a

6:10

pretty cool, like

6:12

old school wine making

6:14

technique. So every

6:16

effort in the making of this wine

6:18

was made to stay true to the

6:20

source and nature's intent. So like sustainability

6:22

in their wine

6:25

making is very important. We will

6:27

get back to that theme in my

6:29

section for sure. Oh dear. Okay. I

6:31

was wondering why. Yeah.

6:34

The true meaning of things. Yeah. Yeah. I

6:36

was wondering why you gave an evil giggle

6:38

to that, but yeah, I like it. The

6:41

grapes were hand harvested in the cool morning hours

6:43

of October 3rd, 2022. So she's fairly young. The

6:47

fruit was de-stemmed and fermented with

6:50

native yeast in concrete over a

6:52

period of 10 days. So that

6:54

concrete fermentation is similar

6:57

to stainless steel where it like won't mess

6:59

with the flavor profile of

7:02

the actual grapes. It spent

7:04

10 days on the skins and then was

7:06

filtered out. The wine was then pressed off

7:08

into neutral French oak to finish it with

7:11

a secondary fermentation, to let it mature a

7:13

little bit for eight months. And then it

7:15

was bottled, un-find and unfiltered in June of 2023. Do

7:19

you have any insight as to why one

7:21

would use cement versus stainless steel if

7:24

it does the same thing, which is

7:26

to have no added

7:28

flavor? I would imagine

7:30

that cement is much more porous

7:32

and maybe that was like an

7:34

old school way to do it,

7:37

but that stainless steel is likely

7:39

easier to maintain rather

7:41

than cement. I don't know

7:43

if that's the answer to that question, but

7:45

I can look into that. That's a good

7:47

question. It sounds official. You said it confidently,

7:50

so I'm going to take it. That's

7:52

what just what would come to me. I mean,

7:54

I imagine that a lot of like

7:56

old world wine makers just

7:58

had to use... what materials

8:00

they had access to, and there might

8:03

not have been much access to stainless steel. I think that's a

8:05

fairly modern, you know,

8:07

in the grand scheme of things, material.

8:10

So that would be my guess, and

8:12

this, especially because they're talking about like

8:15

intentional, kind of like true to the

8:17

roots of wine

8:19

making, I could see that being

8:21

why they have that option. But

8:24

anyway, she is a popper. Let's

8:26

see what she clocks in at. 14.1% ABV,

8:28

honey. I

8:32

like that. She gon' getcha. So

8:34

I'm gonna use my iridescent

8:36

wine key to get this open, and you

8:39

can get yours at

8:41

wineandcrimepodcast.com I'm

8:45

not stalling or anything at all.

8:49

Here we go. Oh.

8:53

Real nice pop. Very

8:56

good pop. Ooh, she smells good.

8:58

Look how gorgeous. That

9:01

color is just magnificent. It

9:03

really is. Oh God,

9:05

don't spill on yourself. Don't spill on yourself. Get

9:08

every last drop. Okay, cheers.

9:10

Oh, I gotta open my climbing

9:12

kites. Oh, get it, get it.

9:14

I got a THC seltzer here.

9:16

You have a marijuana beverage. Yep,

9:20

sure do. Kim Reynolds sucking. A

9:22

marijuana cigarette. Oh, God bless. Cheers.

9:29

Cheers. Well, before we fully dive in,

9:32

should we take a quick break to hear a word

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12:21

Lucy, I am very

12:23

excited for your robust

12:26

segment this week. Uh, yeah,

12:29

this is...we're going deep. We're going

12:31

deep. And I feel like if

12:33

you have questions, if I can't

12:35

answer it, you ask MJ. Okay,

12:37

I will not ask. So, without...

12:39

You might, I might know. You

12:41

can ask. I'll try. I love

12:43

an inquisitive mind. That's true, you

12:45

do. I'll try to delight you.

12:47

It's easy to do. Without further

12:49

ado, what is our

12:51

background and psych for banned books?

12:54

Okay, so according to Emily

12:56

J. Knox's research, which is

12:59

according to MJ's research, book

13:01

challengers often cite a potential

13:03

decline in society as reason

13:06

for challenging books. Books

13:09

challenged through this defense are

13:11

often seen as out to,

13:13

quote, destroy our great nation,

13:16

very nationalist lingo, and

13:18

actively working to put an end

13:21

to American society. According

13:24

to Butler University, there are various specific

13:26

reasons why a book is banned or

13:28

censored, and so these include racial

13:31

issues, if they are

13:33

about and or, quote, encouraging racism.

13:36

Mm-hmm. I mean, okay. Which

13:39

book banners love to be like,

13:41

critical race theory is racist. Yeah.

13:43

Because it makes white people feel

13:45

bad. It's the dumbest argument ever.

13:49

It's so fucking unserious. I

13:52

cannot. I can't. Anyway, yes.

13:55

Another reason to be the encouragement

13:58

of quote, damaging lifestyles. So

14:00

this is the majority of what we're going to

14:02

be talking about today. So this

14:04

encourages lifestyles that are deemed outside the

14:06

norm or are considered dangerous

14:08

or damaging. And specifically

14:11

these refer to queerness or...

14:13

I was just saying, this book has gays

14:15

in it. Yep.

14:17

Queerness or inter-class

14:20

relationships. How will

14:22

I explain poor people to my children?

14:24

Well, in the early 20th century and

14:26

also like, you know, stemming from like

14:29

the late Victorian era, that's exactly

14:31

what it... It was a much bigger

14:33

deal. Also

14:36

like drug use, et

14:38

cetera. Honestly, these are all the

14:40

most exciting topics. Honestly, the best parts

14:42

of books. Right. Gay

14:44

sex, drugs, and

14:48

anti-racism. Let's go. And,

14:51

you know, banging rich people, I

14:53

guess. Bonk bustin'. Okay,

14:59

another reason. Blasphemous dialogue. So

15:01

if the author uses God

15:03

or like Jesus as profanity

15:05

or uses swear words in

15:07

a way that a reader

15:10

can find offensive. Also

15:13

sexual situations or sexual

15:15

dialogue. Violence or

15:17

quote, too much negativity.

15:20

LOL, what? We're

15:23

going to get banned. Yeah.

15:27

Witchcraft. Not

15:29

a witch. Religious affiliations, but

15:31

not like Christian

15:33

religion, but like less

15:35

popular. Less

15:37

mainstream. Muslim.

15:42

Yeah. Which is

15:44

not to say that Islam is

15:46

less popular than Christianity. Right, it's

15:48

widely popular. In this

15:50

country. Stigmatized

15:53

for sure. Yep. Political

15:55

bias and age and appropriateness. So these

15:58

books, the book. age-inappropriate

16:00

books are censored due to their

16:02

content and the age level at

16:04

which they are aimed. So

16:07

right now that is the main reason

16:09

why most books are being banned in

16:11

schools and certain libraries. I feel

16:13

like this keeps happening to us and I swear to

16:15

God we are not like following

16:20

John Oliver's Last Week Tonight

16:22

show schedule, but he recently

16:25

did an episode on libraries

16:28

and they talk a lot about this

16:30

specific issue and how

16:32

frustrating it is because libraries

16:34

are already designed and sectioned

16:36

to not have material like

16:39

this in the children's area

16:41

of the library. But

16:44

people it's like that's not enough for

16:46

people. People are like, well, if I'm

16:48

not watching my child, they could get

16:50

access to this pornography. Then watch your

16:52

fucking kid. Yeah, that's not

16:54

my goddamn problem. Give me my

16:56

library porn. That's insane. Yeah, it's

16:58

wild. Well, they could wander off

17:00

and pick up a random book

17:02

in the erotica section. Pretty much.

17:04

There's no erotica section. No, not

17:06

at the library. I would know

17:08

if there was. I've asked. I've

17:11

sent a lot of emails. They

17:14

keep as of now. I'm banned

17:16

from the library because I keep

17:18

demanding and increasing erotica. I am

17:22

age inappropriate. Yes, my

17:25

I have been banned. So in the

17:27

21st century, like we've been talking

17:29

about, we are seeing a rise in

17:31

school book bands. One of the most

17:33

banned books right now in libraries, specifically

17:36

school libraries, is a

17:38

book called Gender Queer, a

17:40

memoir by Maya Cobabe. It's

17:42

a beautiful book. It's

17:45

a graphic novel slash memoir, and

17:47

it recounts Cobabe's journey from adolescence

17:50

to adulthood and their exploration of

17:52

gender identity and sexuality. According

17:55

to a publisher's weekly article, this book has

17:57

been banned in 41 school

17:59

districts. across the United States. I

18:01

feel like a lot of people in

18:03

this book banning camp get really caught

18:05

up in the fact that this book

18:07

in particular and other books with strong

18:11

and true human

18:13

messaging are packaged as graphic

18:17

novels, and then they're pissed that it's like,

18:20

this is made

18:23

to be appealing to children. And

18:26

it's like cartoon. Because it's a cartoon,

18:28

and it's like, okay, well, the fucking

18:30

The Simpsons and Rick and Morty are

18:32

also cartoons, but they're made for adults.

18:35

Two things can be true. I

18:38

don't know what's going on. It's like this

18:40

is a weak argument. Young kids aren't reading

18:43

graphic novels like that because they're illustrated.

18:48

I mean, they might be, who cares if they are or

18:50

aren't. But kids are also

18:52

curious and interested in the content, and

18:54

the content is totally lovely. Yeah, yeah.

18:56

I read just a little part of

18:58

the book, but it's like so

19:01

honest and so sweet and so

19:03

vulnerable. I just really, it's a

19:05

nice book. If

19:07

your kid joins

19:09

the queer revolution after reading gender

19:11

queer, I don't know what to

19:14

tell you. They were already queer.

19:16

Yeah. It wasn't because

19:18

of the book. It's not a choice.

19:23

Sorry, mom. Oh my

19:25

God. But

19:27

I'm not really talking about school book bands

19:29

this week, but more about

19:32

government encouraged book bands. So

19:34

here are some fun facts about

19:36

book bands in the US according

19:39

to the American Library Association. The

19:41

ALA's Office for Intellectual Freedom documented

19:44

1,247 demands to censor library books

19:49

and resources in 2023. Dang.

19:52

The number of targeted titles surged by

19:54

65% in 2023 compared to 2022. Well.

20:02

With 4,240 unique

20:04

book titles being targeted for removal

20:07

from schools and libraries. That's wild.

20:09

That's so crazy. Get

20:11

a hobby that isn't this, Karen. Fucking

20:14

seriously. Take up

20:16

crochet. It is so much

20:19

more useful for

20:21

your role in society. Go

20:23

outside. Touch grass, baby.

20:26

Touch grass. Take your meds. Drinks

20:29

of water. Look at the sky. There

20:32

are more important things in life. The

20:35

top five most challenged books of 2023

20:37

were Gender Queer, the one I've already

20:39

referenced. A book called All

20:42

Boys Aren't Blue by George M. Johnson.

20:45

This book is Gay by Juno Dawson.

20:47

Love the cover. It's just a big rainbow

20:49

flag. This book is

20:52

gay. Incredible. Also,

20:54

The Perks of Being a Wallflower

20:56

by Stephen Chbosky. Interesting. It

20:59

was a fan. I remember reading that book in like

21:01

sixth grade. So good. I

21:04

don't remember a single sexual thing.

21:08

It was like three friends that didn't have

21:10

any other friends. Yeah. Deeply

21:12

relatable. So much is subjective

21:14

about like what is considered

21:16

wholesome content for teens and

21:18

tweens and everything in between.

21:20

Yeah. That I just

21:23

find this absurd. Because your life is

21:25

becoming less wholesome. Yeah. Like

21:27

you are encountering real life adult

21:30

situations as you become an adult.

21:34

Heaven forbid there be literature about

21:36

other people's similar experiences to create

21:39

community and relatability and share each

21:41

other's histories. Heaven forbid. Reading

21:44

a book about these things before you

21:46

encounter them in real life is like

21:48

honestly necessary. Mm hmm. Like

21:50

drugs and sex and stuff like that. Gotta try

21:52

it. You at least have a concept of it.

21:55

Safer. Yeah. And

21:57

Flamer by Mike Curato. much

22:00

queer targeting. Yes.

22:05

According to their titles challenged in

22:07

public schools and libraries during 2023

22:10

map. I love that they

22:12

have a map for this. Two

22:15

states that challenged the most

22:17

titles were Texas and Florida.

22:19

Who would guess. OK,

22:23

so the first government or

22:25

a band book case

22:27

that I'm going to tell you about is

22:30

that of Lady Chatterley's lover. When

22:32

you said these words to me

22:34

yesterday so that I made sure

22:36

we weren't covering the same stuff.

22:40

I changed. I

22:43

was like ready to binge every episode

22:45

of Bridgerton. I'm

22:48

so excited about this. Lady

22:50

Chatterley. It's devastatingly

22:53

boring. I'm sure. It's

22:56

not a it's not a fun

22:58

read, which kind of makes this whole case

23:01

so outrageous. OK, I can't wait. One

23:03

of the elements of the outrageousness. OK.

23:06

On March 3rd, 1873, this fucking

23:09

wet blanket of a dude named

23:12

Anthony Comstock, who

23:14

was the founder of Comstock, Anthony

23:17

Comstock. He wishes. He

23:21

wishes he had a sock. He

23:24

wishes he ever came in his

23:26

life. Fair, fair. We'll get

23:28

to it. Oh, God. He was

23:30

the founder of the New York Society

23:32

for the Suppression of Vice. Wow.

23:35

Which was an institution dedicated to

23:37

supervising the morality of the public.

23:39

He fucking made up this. Supervising

23:43

the morality of the

23:45

public. He got a

23:48

loser. Pissy that

23:50

there were like nude

23:53

paintings in art galleries or

23:55

put panties on the David.

23:57

This is absolutely foul.

24:00

One time he pitched a

24:02

fit and like

24:05

filed a lawsuit

24:07

against a store because they had

24:10

naked mannequins in the window because

24:12

the shop window shop

24:15

was being swapped out, like being

24:17

changed. They were dressing the mannequins,

24:19

but for some amount of time

24:21

while he walked by they were

24:23

naked mannequins. How dare you show

24:25

these soft plastic

24:28

non-genitals to me? Genitalists.

24:32

These unique plastic

24:34

creatures. These unnaturally

24:37

smooth shapes. What

24:42

a nut. This guy was

24:44

such a fucking cum

24:46

sock. So in

24:49

1873 he successfully petitioned for

24:51

the US Congress to pass

24:53

an act regarding obscenity in

24:55

literature. So

24:57

this was called the, try

25:00

to follow along, the act

25:02

for the suppression of trade

25:04

in and circulation of obscene

25:06

literature and articles of immoral

25:08

use. What a quippy act.

25:10

Or the A-S-T-C-O-L-A-I-U. Or

25:14

the A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-I-J-K-L-I-M-E-O-P. Ask

25:17

for la-u. Ask for la-u. No. No.

25:21

So this prohibited the possession and

25:23

circulation of any obscene material

25:26

or a subject of immoral influence

25:29

in literature, image, or of

25:31

any other material and manifestation.

25:33

Dude, the internet would... It

25:36

was completely subjective. Yeah. The

25:38

internet would make this guy die on the

25:41

spot. It's like those memes about like, this

25:43

would kill a Victorian child.

25:45

This would put Gwyneth Paltrow in a

25:47

coma. If

25:49

this man ever saw the

25:52

internet, his brain

25:55

would melt out of his head.

25:57

My favorite one of those is, it's

25:59

like a scene. from like Creed playing like

26:01

a halftime at a football game and

26:03

there's like an eagle on fireworks. And

26:07

like some guy comes in on like a zip line with

26:10

like a cape and it said the

26:12

European mind could never. That would put

26:14

a Victorian child in a coma. Seeing

26:18

Scott Stapp perform at a Super Bowl

26:20

halftime show. Yeah. Okay,

26:22

so this ridiculous thing known

26:25

as the little bitch act, just kidding,

26:27

it's called the Comstock act. The

26:29

Comstock act. The Comstock act is

26:32

still showing up in these book band discussions

26:34

today. Get over it. He

26:38

sucked. If

26:41

like the bastion of your pursuit

26:44

is an old washed

26:46

up Puritan Comstock, you

26:48

need to evaluate your

26:50

life. Yeah. So

26:53

he was like super duper Protestant.

26:55

He like visited New York and

26:57

was offended by the

26:59

lifestyle. Fair. That's fair,

27:01

but like he

27:04

took it upon himself to make sure

27:06

that nothing pornographic was being sent through

27:08

the mail is what

27:11

this act basically did. My

27:13

mail is private. Yeah.

27:16

So it criminalized the use of

27:18

the U.S. Postal Service to send materials

27:21

considered obscenities. And this included contraceptives,

27:24

abortifacients, sex toys, personal

27:26

letters with any sexual

27:28

content or information or

27:32

any information regarding the above. Well,

27:34

I, as you

27:36

recall, was getting like spam

27:39

mail from that fucking quote

27:42

unquote church that was like

27:44

selling talismans to bring you

27:46

blessed wealth. Yep.

27:48

And I was just responding with

27:50

their prepaid envelope by stuffing it

27:53

with porn and sending it back.

27:56

So arrest me, daddy. I've

28:00

been a bad girl. You've

28:02

been mailing porn. I've been mailing porn

28:04

to my church friend. Your

28:08

porn voice is so disgusting. They

28:12

stopped sending me those fucking letters. We

28:15

sure did. It worked. They

28:17

only needed like four envelopes full of cut, meticulously cut

28:19

out, no context, just flaky. Someone

28:27

kept those. Yeah. And

28:31

I have a lot left, so come at me, church. Great. Come

28:35

at me, Pope. Come at me,

28:37

Pope. Porn with your

28:39

name on it. So this guy, again, sucked so

28:41

much that he would like set traps for people

28:43

by like, he catfished in the late 1800s. What

28:53

a dick. He

28:55

would send out for contraceptives or

28:57

information about sex and contraceptives to

28:59

like, you know, different organizations. He

29:03

would like make up names. He would make

29:05

up whole relationships with other fictional people. And

29:08

then when they mailed him what he had asked for,

29:10

he would have them arrested. And

29:14

he got a cut of the fines. Oh,

29:17

that's a good question. He would

29:19

have them arrested and he got

29:21

a cut of the fines. Always

29:23

follow the fucking money. Yep. This

29:26

guy found a grift

29:28

that lined his fucking pockets that

29:30

maybe started with him being like,

29:33

Pearl clutching about some shit. But he didn't

29:35

actually care about this nearly as much as

29:37

he cared about getting paid. I fucking guarantee

29:39

it. Oh, absolutely.

29:41

Pathetic. He's a hardcore

29:44

religious man. He

29:46

needs to get his cut. Religious

29:49

capitalism. Yeah. So

29:51

he was gross and I hate

29:54

him. But there's the groundwork for

29:56

the Comstock Act. The Comstock.

30:00

go forward like 80 years. On April 30th,

30:02

1959, New York

30:05

Postmaster Robert K. Christenberry evoked

30:07

the use of a Comstock

30:09

era law to confiscate 24

30:12

copies of Lady

30:14

Chatterley's Lover by D.H. Lawrence

30:16

and these were published

30:19

by the Grove Press,

30:22

which was a very, it

30:25

was a popular, renowned, very

30:27

respective publishing company. So

30:30

the novel Lady Chatterley's Lover follows

30:32

the story of Constance Chatterley and

30:34

her sexual awakening with her groundskeeper

30:36

while her husband is like off

30:39

with his writing career in the

30:42

aftermath of World War I. Do we

30:44

need to do this for passages? It's

30:46

so boring. Oh, that's fair. These are

30:48

the early bonk busters were not that

30:51

great. No. And the

30:53

first one like that's regarded as

30:55

the first ever written is called

30:58

like Pamela and it's just a

31:00

series of letters. And

31:02

it's like this 15 year old handmade

31:06

who's basically being like

31:08

Stockholm syndromeed by the

31:12

master of the house. Oh.

31:14

Into being his little

31:16

wife, but she resists him.

31:18

And the whole

31:20

thing is about how like holding onto

31:22

your virtue until after you're married, even

31:25

when it's so hard to resist is

31:28

so sensual. It's like, she

31:30

was 15. Yeah. But that

31:33

book's not fucking banned. Well, because

31:35

it's because the moral of the

31:37

story is that of moral

31:40

Christian's virtues, trace, chaste

31:42

virtues. Yep, exactly. So

31:45

the husband's away. She's fucking

31:47

bored. She starts fucking

31:49

the gardener. Love it. Essentially. It was banned

31:52

in the US when it was originally published

31:54

in 1928 because

31:56

it was considered to be too pornographic

31:59

and explicit. Even named

36:00

Charles Rembarr. Along

36:02

with their complaint, the company also submitted

36:04

an affidavit by Barney Rossett, who was

36:07

the president of Grove Press, as

36:09

sworn evidence. Rossett emphasized

36:11

that the company saw the

36:14

novel as an important cultural

36:16

contribution and the novel underscored

36:18

Lawrence's exploration of social,

36:20

moral, and aesthetic themes. It's

36:23

like flowery, it's very much like

36:25

a classic, like a boring ass

36:27

classic book. He

36:29

even went as far as stating that

36:31

the inclusion of explicit language and sexual

36:33

content was integral to the author's artistic

36:35

vision. Of course. On

36:38

June 30th, 1959, all parties

36:41

had a court appearance before

36:43

District Judge Frederick Van Pilt

36:45

Bryan, Judge Bryan. So Rembarr,

36:47

the Grove lawyer, took

36:50

a similar approach to Rossett when

36:52

defending the novel. He stated that

36:54

the novel did indeed have literary

36:56

merit and was not, quote, commercial

36:58

pornography, therefore affording the novel protections

37:00

under the First Amendment. Rembarr

37:03

explained that Lawrence, the author,

37:05

had denounced sex without love

37:07

in the novel. So again,

37:09

it's like. Yeah, it's still

37:11

pure-ish. Yeah, pure-ish, yeah.

37:14

And preached against the effects

37:17

increasing industrialization had on

37:19

an early 20th century

37:21

Britain. So

37:23

they basically English majored their argument.

37:25

They were like. This is important.

37:27

Yes, there is one scene where

37:30

she touches his boner, kind of,

37:32

but it's written so boringly. That's

37:35

not really the point. The point

37:37

is that sex without love is

37:39

not the real deal and

37:43

a more overarching theme

37:45

of industrialized Britain. Sure.

37:51

You need a little sex to sell, so

37:54

I get it. So again, this novel is not

37:57

arousing in any way. Lucy.

40:02

Please, Postmaster General. So

40:05

crap. Lady

40:08

Chatterley, please. Please, I need

40:10

my Lady Chatterley. You

40:17

don't though. I really fucking don't. I

40:19

do not like this book. No, I'm

40:21

good. I'm good. I'm

40:23

good. Okay, so Rembar saw that comment

40:25

as an opportunity to say that Summerfield's

40:27

finding had no meaning and it was

40:29

up to the court to find the

40:31

novel obscene or not. So

40:34

on the other side of things, the Postmaster's

40:36

attorney whose name was

40:39

S. Hazard Gillespie. No,

40:41

it wasn't. Hazard. That,

40:44

you put three names

40:48

in among a bunch of

40:50

like bingo balls. S

40:52

Hazard Gillespie. And Drew, I, Hazard

40:56

is my middle name. Is

41:00

there a Mrs. Hazard? There's

41:04

about to be. Okay,

41:07

so Hazard Gillespie didn't agree with Rembar

41:09

and said that the that the court's

41:11

job was just to decide whether or

41:14

not there was substantial evidence to support

41:16

the decision of the Postmaster General. Oh,

41:18

for God's sake. These are semantics and

41:20

this is so stupid. Depends on what

41:23

your definition of the word is, is.

41:26

Yep. He argued that the

41:28

Postmaster did have a foundation for his argument

41:30

and stated that the main message of the

41:32

novel is if one

41:34

party to a marriage is unable to

41:36

secure sexual fulfillment within the marriage, he

41:38

or she is justified in seeking it

41:41

outside the marriage. Mm.

41:43

Okay, and. How does that affect

41:45

me? First of all, no. And second of

41:47

all, so? Yeah. Both

41:50

no and so. No, and

41:52

so. Okay. First of

41:54

all, how dare you? Yeah,

41:57

I do have a lot of questions. First of all,

41:59

how dare you? I

50:00

want to fucking read that. Yeah, I think

50:02

I do. I want to read the $100 what scandal? Misunderstanding.

50:08

Misunderstand. Story

50:11

by fucking life. Honestly,

50:14

every time someone with ADHD has

50:16

a misunderstanding, they lose $100. ADHD

50:18

is expensive. We forget

50:21

shit. You lose stuff. We

50:23

lose stuff. You buy stuff. Replacements,

50:26

renewals. My

50:29

whole life is $100 misunderstanding. You

50:32

need rocket money. I have it.

50:34

Thank God. So

50:37

the lady Chatterley's lover's case was

50:40

far from a singular pursuit of making

50:42

certain books for sale. It was a

50:45

pivotal effort to quote shrink the scope

50:47

of anti obscenity laws and to advance

50:49

literary freedom of speech. Rossett's

50:52

insistence on publishing controversial works reflected not

50:54

only a commitment to free expression, but

50:57

also a strategic push to challenge

50:59

and reshape societal norms regarding licentious

51:01

literature. Get it, King.

51:03

So this last part, I think, is my

51:05

favorite part because it kind of puts everything

51:08

into perspective and like shows the lasting effects.

51:11

So this case also eliminated

51:13

the legal risks associated with

51:15

distribution for bookstores and publishing

51:17

houses because obviously that

51:19

could have been a very sticky,

51:22

slippery slope before before these.

51:26

Precedents were established. In

51:29

addition, the press coverage of the

51:31

insanity proceedings along with Grove Press's

51:33

advertising campaigns has resulted in a

51:35

massive public interest in buying the

51:37

book. Yeah, it's like

51:40

it's like this mailman had the Streisand effect. He's

51:42

like, I don't want anyone to see this and

51:44

that it got publicized because it

51:46

was in the fucking court. And

51:48

now it's like everybody wants to check this out now.

51:51

You tried to make it go away. Now

51:55

it's more prevalent than ever. Seriously.

51:57

So while Grove Press had resulted

51:59

in the But

1:12:01

it's what we had at the time. Mid-50s, this is

1:12:03

where, yeah. Bakeless further supported the

1:12:06

publishing and dispersal of the book

1:12:08

by stating how many of the

1:12:10

great classics, quote, have required reading

1:12:12

for schoolboys, meaning that

1:12:14

books often include entertainment for men.

1:12:16

Therefore, why should there be pushback

1:12:18

on entertainment for women? He

1:12:21

demonstrated this by noting that Macbeth and

1:12:23

Hamlet also drew upon the themes of

1:12:25

murder and adultery, and how

1:12:28

Hamlet goes even further by depicting

1:12:30

instances of incest. Yeah,

1:12:32

dude, Oedipus. Yeah.

1:12:34

We had to read that in school. Yeah.

1:12:37

Like, fuck off. Really enjoyed that

1:12:39

book. The picking and choosing of

1:12:41

what is considered,

1:12:43

you know, egregious and

1:12:46

unacceptable is fucking bullshit. Well,

1:12:50

it's a female author. It's about all women.

1:12:53

Lady Chatterley's lover was from

1:12:55

a female perspective. They

1:12:58

just have a problem with women's sexuality.

1:13:01

Yeah. And queerness. Which

1:13:03

is pervasive even now in, you

1:13:06

know, people's pushback on literature,

1:13:08

especially like salacious literature. There

1:13:10

are lots of people who,

1:13:13

I mean, in the

1:13:15

context of Twilight, which obviously I've been really

1:13:17

obsessed with recently because we're covering that for

1:13:19

passages, there's, this is so

1:13:21

recurring where it's like, women shouldn't

1:13:23

be reading slash writing

1:13:25

this because it's going to promote

1:13:28

women doing on ladylike things.

1:13:30

Like they shouldn't like this. They shouldn't, you

1:13:32

know, they shouldn't be entertaining them. It's going

1:13:34

to give them bad ideas. Like, all right,

1:13:36

well, I already had a lot of really

1:13:38

bad ideas and the books are not making

1:13:40

that. It's actually giving me better ideas. Yeah.

1:13:43

You know what I mean? Yeah. It's

1:13:45

annoying. He also states that the lesbian

1:13:47

scenes in women's barracks are less descriptive

1:13:50

than those found in Plato's symposium and

1:13:52

as graphic as those found in The

1:13:54

Iliad. By bringing

1:13:56

into the conversation, classic pieces of

1:13:58

literature, Bakelist puts into perspective. perspective,

1:14:00

the frequency with which books with

1:14:02

obscene and morally degrading themes are

1:14:04

praised by the general public and

1:14:06

intellectuals alike. And since the classics

1:14:09

do not face backlash for depicting

1:14:11

such scenes, argued Bakeless, neither should

1:14:13

women's barracks, which dealt with real

1:14:15

life happenings rather than fantasy. So

1:14:18

Day further pushed back against the

1:14:21

committee by stating that quote, homosexual

1:14:23

inquiries into the State Department and

1:14:25

other government agencies sparked curiosity in

1:14:27

the public. He claimed

1:14:29

that the investigation and repression actually

1:14:31

drove interest in homoerotic literature. So

1:14:34

people were probably like, oh, that exists.

1:14:37

I have to check that out. Wait

1:14:39

a minute. For this reason, he elaborates

1:14:42

the public should have access to women's

1:14:44

barracks and other books that touch on

1:14:46

such themes, for it would be immoral

1:14:49

not to satisfy the public's interest in

1:14:51

knowledge of such topics. That's what's fucking

1:14:53

immoral here. Give the people what they

1:14:55

want. Satisfy me. Please.

1:14:59

Please. Please. Furthermore,

1:15:04

it was an opportunity to expand readership

1:15:06

and publish stories that appealed to the

1:15:08

LGBTQ plus community. They're realizing that that

1:15:11

is a huge audience. Yeah.

1:15:14

Day continued to emphasize that the scenes

1:15:16

in the book were comparable to heterosexual

1:15:18

sex scenes in popular books such as

1:15:20

Gone with the Wind and

1:15:23

that sex relations will have good sales

1:15:25

no matter what audience it's intended for.

1:15:28

Sex sells, baby. He knew what he

1:15:30

was fucking talking about. Get him reading.

1:15:33

Unfortunately, these counter arguments failed to

1:15:35

sway the conservative committee, which decided

1:15:38

that the contents of the book

1:15:40

were in fact pornographic material that

1:15:42

was too obscene and morally disruptive

1:15:44

for the general public's consumption. In

1:15:47

order to prevent the book from being

1:15:49

banned nationwide, the publisher agreed to add

1:15:51

a narrator.

1:15:55

They wrote in a narrator to the

1:15:57

book. In the margin notes.

1:16:00

like a fucking school

1:16:02

marm, scoldy voice about

1:16:05

what was happening in the book. This

1:16:08

is written in here, but we don't approve of

1:16:10

this. Exactly. This is bad,

1:16:12

but we're gonna tell you everything about

1:16:14

it. Yeah. So they wrote

1:16:17

in a narrator that disapproved of the

1:16:20

interactions between the characters. This newly added

1:16:22

voice was used as a method to

1:16:24

deter people from committing the same so-called

1:16:26

mistakes as the characters in the book.

1:16:30

It was meant to teach the

1:16:32

reader that homoeroticism was immoral and

1:16:34

problematic. But despite

1:16:36

that, multiple states pulled the book off

1:16:38

the shelves and banned it for containing

1:16:40

obscene material. This book

1:16:43

was considered as propaganda, glorifying

1:16:45

lesbian relationships. Hell yeah.

1:16:48

Yeah. Therefore, it was not

1:16:50

an acceptable moral influence on its

1:16:52

consumers. While the

1:16:54

committee's verdict denounced women's barracks, the

1:16:56

book continued to sell despite or

1:16:59

perhaps because of its negative connotations.

1:17:01

Stryzand effect, I'm telling you. What

1:17:03

is the Stryzand effect? Barbra

1:17:06

Stryzand, I don't know if she still lives there,

1:17:08

but she had a house like on the coast

1:17:10

in. The Hamptons? No,

1:17:13

California. Malibu? Malibu,

1:17:17

Malibu. Why do I read your mind

1:17:19

sometimes? You're so good at this. And

1:17:22

there was like a research

1:17:25

article about coastal

1:17:27

erosion and that included

1:17:30

drone, like aerial shots, drone

1:17:32

shots of all these properties

1:17:34

along the coast. And one of those

1:17:36

properties was Barbra Stryzand's house. And

1:17:38

she wanted that taken down, even though

1:17:41

this was in like a really small

1:17:43

publication, like it wasn't like a viral

1:17:45

photo of Barbra Stryzand's house. It was

1:17:48

like included in like a

1:17:50

state run investigation,

1:17:54

from some climate fucking. Yeah,

1:17:56

yeah, yeah. It was like a paper publication.

1:17:59

So it was like not a big deal,

1:18:01

but she pitched a fit about the fact

1:18:03

that her house was pictured in one of

1:18:05

the many coastal photos

1:18:07

that were included and then

1:18:10

that the fact that she was pitching a fit Gained

1:18:13

all this attention and then so many

1:18:15

fucking more people saw the photo of her

1:18:17

home Ever would have

1:18:19

if she had just let it go Even

1:18:22

if the people who originally saw it, there's

1:18:24

nothing that like indicates its Barbra Streisand's house

1:18:27

Like no people wouldn't have known yeah, don't

1:18:29

fucking just recognize your house girl. I'm an

1:18:31

aerial view calm down Calm

1:18:34

down. I love that. Yeah, then it

1:18:36

went viral and now it's Referred

1:18:39

to as the Streisand effect when somebody is

1:18:41

trying so desperately to like get rid of

1:18:43

something that they don't want associated with them

1:18:45

Or they don't want the scene and all

1:18:48

it does is have the opposite effect It

1:18:50

just tell it just spreads it like wildfire

1:18:52

and then everybody fucking sees it It's like

1:18:54

despite what you've heard. I did not make

1:18:56

a paintbrush out of your hair. I swear

1:18:59

It's the same thing. I didn't yeah,

1:19:02

that's baby Streisand effect right there Okay,

1:19:06

so instead of deterring the public from

1:19:08

the book as originally intended the trial

1:19:10

drew more attention to a book that

1:19:13

otherwise would Have gone largely unnoticed literally,

1:19:15

yes Pulp fiction books like

1:19:17

women's barracks were supposed to be a cheap read

1:19:19

only costing 25 to 35 cents and for Reference

1:19:24

a carton of eggs at the time

1:19:26

went for 50 cents. Mm-hmm Women's barracks

1:19:28

was never expected to become as popular

1:19:30

as it did There you go It

1:19:32

drew attention to the new subgenre of

1:19:34

lesbian pulp fiction and became a trailblazer

1:19:36

in books with overtly lesbian themes Yeah,

1:19:39

I mean Statistically

1:19:41

a lot of women

1:19:43

read. Yeah and women like erotica

1:19:45

just as much as the next

1:19:48

guy Patient enough to

1:19:50

read it instead of downloading it off of the

1:19:53

internet. Yeah, really less bandwidth more

1:19:55

analog Yep. Anyway,

1:19:57

so that is my very

1:19:59

robust segment Wow. This

1:20:01

stuff is just it blows the

1:20:03

mind how much people care about

1:20:05

the dumbest shit.

1:20:07

Well, you know, I really it

1:20:10

seems some of this seems small,

1:20:12

but I I really,

1:20:14

truly believe that it's all

1:20:16

part of a broader scale

1:20:20

of control of what

1:20:22

we consume, what,

1:20:24

you know, what ideas we share.

1:20:28

Yeah, you know, that's that's what it

1:20:30

fucking comes down to. Yeah, totally. Definitely.

1:20:32

Get to it. It's fear and it's

1:20:34

control and it's yeah,

1:20:36

it's a

1:20:39

religiosity. Just a little

1:20:41

bit on the fascist side. Truly,

1:20:43

truly. Christo Fash. Keep

1:20:47

your eye on that. Anyway, shall we

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take a quick break to

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1:23:34

right before I start your segment reminded me

1:23:36

that I want to recommend this awesome

1:23:41

Brilliant trans content creator.

1:23:43

She's on YouTube. She has a It's

1:23:46

a time sink, but you can put it on in the background

1:23:49

Her channel is called contra points. See

1:23:51

Oh and TRA points on

1:23:53

Instagram. No, I watch your stuff on

1:23:55

YouTube. Oh And she

1:23:58

did a three-hour video on

1:24:01

Twilight. And that sound,

1:24:03

no, this sounds not

1:24:05

up your alley at all, but

1:24:07

she goes so deep into like

1:24:10

the origins of romance novels,

1:24:13

their cultural impact,

1:24:16

feminism, queer rights. It's

1:24:19

like, it's so fucking good. It's so

1:24:21

fucking good. Is this her?

1:24:23

Yes. Cool. Yeah,

1:24:26

she's phenomenal. So I do highly

1:24:28

recommend. Take an afternoon, clean your

1:24:30

house, pour some wine, listen

1:24:33

to the ContraPoints, Twilight video essay.

1:24:35

It's really informative, especially if you're like a

1:24:37

book nerd or you love romance novels, it'll

1:24:40

teach you a lot. Amazing. All right. So

1:24:42

my case has nothing

1:24:45

to do with romance novels really, but maybe

1:24:47

some stuck in there, but it's fine. In

1:24:49

my segment today, we're going back in history

1:24:52

to Lithuania and its rule

1:24:54

for a time by Imperial

1:24:57

Russia. Wow. We haven't been

1:24:59

to Russia in a while. It's been a minute.

1:25:02

I'm not going to pretend to be super knowledgeable in

1:25:04

this area, but I did learn a ton from

1:25:06

this research. So I'm excited.

1:25:09

So in the late 1700s, what

1:25:11

was once the like Polish, Lithuanian

1:25:13

Commonwealth was essentially split off and

1:25:15

divvied up with the majority

1:25:17

of this land controlled by Russia. By

1:25:21

the mid 1800s, Polish and

1:25:23

Lithuanian uprisings and insurrection attempts

1:25:25

had Russia fucking biting their

1:25:27

nails over this threat to their

1:25:29

occupation. People were like, fuck

1:25:31

this. Fuck

1:25:34

off, basically. And they were really

1:25:37

organizing and rising up against

1:25:40

Russian imperialist government. I

1:25:42

know that like some of my ancestors

1:25:45

were like Polish, Russian,

1:25:47

and they left because

1:25:50

of this stuff. They're probably occupied. In

1:25:54

an attempt to shut down this resistance,

1:25:56

the Russian imperial government doubled down on,

1:25:59

quote, Russia. the

1:26:01

Lithuanian population under their rule.

1:26:05

The intention was to strip them

1:26:07

of their historic roots, especially rooting

1:26:09

out their Roman Catholic religious practices

1:26:11

in favor of Imperial Russia's official

1:26:13

Eastern Orthodox religion. And the Roman

1:26:15

Catholic religious practice became

1:26:17

like such a target because we

1:26:20

have to remember that in these

1:26:22

times, the church was so foundational

1:26:24

to communities. People were educated within

1:26:26

the church. People were fed. People

1:26:30

communed together. So

1:26:32

much happened in the church

1:26:34

that like isn't as prevalent today

1:26:36

and so they were- It was like a

1:26:38

full identity. Yeah, and a

1:26:40

full community. And if that

1:26:42

community didn't align with what

1:26:44

the government wanted, then the

1:26:47

government wanted to shut that shit down. Okay.

1:26:49

From Atlas Obscura, quote, Zars tried

1:26:52

early on to enforce loyalty, finding

1:26:54

a particular target in the Roman Catholic

1:26:57

church. An historic Lithuanian institution that Russia

1:26:59

saw as a threat to its power.

1:27:02

Russian authorities demolished numerous chapels

1:27:04

and prohibited the construction of

1:27:06

wayside shrines, which were essentially

1:27:09

omnipresent throughout Lithuania. There were

1:27:11

roughly two shrines, Roman Catholic

1:27:13

shrines per kilometer, but

1:27:15

not prepared to give up their culture.

1:27:17

Lithuanians would build new shrines anyway, which I

1:27:20

fucking love. Build the shrines, babe.

1:27:22

Knock our shrines down. We're going to have another one

1:27:24

up in fucking 15 minutes. So, Sars,

1:27:26

Russia. Sars, Sars. Yeah, Peter's

1:27:29

already on his way down with a

1:27:31

new shrine. He's

1:27:33

balls deep in a new shrine. Just fucking move

1:27:36

on. Part of

1:27:38

this strategy of Russification included

1:27:40

Tsar Alexander II's laws allowing

1:27:42

only Russian language materials in

1:27:44

occupied Lithuania, imposing what is

1:27:46

referred to as, quote, the

1:27:48

Lithuanian press ban. So,

1:27:51

from Lucy's lover, Britannica, the

1:27:54

Tsarist government treated the Northwest region,

1:27:56

which as historic Lithuania,

1:27:58

apart from the Southeast, Eastern lands was

1:28:00

called after 1832 as an integral part of Russia.

1:28:05

And they're like, we need to

1:28:07

assimilate this populated

1:28:10

area of Lithuania because

1:28:12

we occupy them, they're

1:28:14

Russian. And for

1:28:16

us to like have Russian expansion, they

1:28:18

need to be fucking on board. So

1:28:20

they were like real concerned with the

1:28:22

specific, fairly high density,

1:28:25

formerly Lithuanian area. Got

1:28:29

it. In 1832, the University of Vinius, founded in 1579, was closed.

1:28:36

So they're shutting down universities. In

1:28:38

1840, the Lithuanian legal code, which

1:28:40

dated back to the 16th century,

1:28:42

was abolished, like their own little

1:28:45

insular constitution.

1:28:48

Constitution out the

1:28:50

door. Dang. After the

1:28:52

revolt of 1863, because obviously people

1:28:55

are like, fuck this, they're uprising. The

1:28:57

policy of Russification was extended to

1:28:59

all areas of public life. Russian

1:29:02

was the only language sanctioned for public

1:29:04

use, including education. Books

1:29:06

and magazines in the Lithuanian language could

1:29:08

be printed only in the Cyrillic or

1:29:11

Russian alphabet. By 1865,

1:29:13

all Lithuanian language use of the Latin alphabet

1:29:15

was banned. This is exactly, I mean, this

1:29:17

is what they did to the Native

1:29:19

Americans in the US and more

1:29:22

recently than this. Mm-hmm.

1:29:25

Yep. In 1956, any printing or

1:29:27

importing of printed items in Lithuanian was

1:29:29

banned. Only about

1:29:31

55 printings of Lithuanian books

1:29:33

that had been translated into

1:29:35

the required Cyrillic alphabet were

1:29:37

in circulation. So of like

1:29:40

all, there was like a scourge. Wow.

1:29:43

I'm not saying that there were only 55 books

1:29:46

left, but like 55

1:29:48

historic pieces of literature

1:29:51

had been translated to the alphabet and were

1:29:53

like the only ones still

1:29:55

surviving at this point. This

1:29:58

created fucking obviously a low

1:30:01

black market economy for the

1:30:03

printing, smuggling, and distribution of

1:30:05

Lithuanian language materials and books.

1:30:08

Ooh. Being caught with such

1:30:10

materials was faced with a range

1:30:12

of punishments from fines to exile

1:30:14

to Siberia. Oh my god. No

1:30:16

thank you. To death. For

1:30:20

printing books? Yup. Wow.

1:30:23

Or just having one? Both.

1:30:26

Jesus. Smuggling, having...

1:30:29

It was bad. Now I spent

1:30:31

a lot of time listening to pronunciations

1:30:33

and now I've been drinking wine so

1:30:36

I'm going to do my absolute best.

1:30:39

Enter Motiayus

1:30:43

Volentius. A

1:30:46

Catholic bishop of Samagisha,

1:30:49

one of the five cultural regions of Lithuania.

1:30:52

This guy was a well-known historian and one of

1:30:54

the most prolific Lithuanian writers of the 19th century.

1:30:58

He had some cash on hand and was

1:31:00

like, you know what? I'm going to quietly

1:31:02

finance and organize printing of Lithuanian materials abroad

1:31:04

and help smuggle and distribute them to the

1:31:06

public. You know what? You

1:31:09

know what? I got

1:31:11

some free time. Yeah. He helped

1:31:13

usher in the movement of the

1:31:15

kenignishai, which means

1:31:17

book carriers in Lithuanian.

1:31:20

Kenignishai. That's a

1:31:22

cool word. That's very cool. Y'all, this was

1:31:24

like intense. This

1:31:26

was like cartel drug

1:31:28

smuggling operation for written

1:31:31

materials. Dang. The

1:31:33

kenignishai had been at work before

1:31:37

Motiayus, I'm so sorry, came into assist. They

1:31:43

were not really an organized network.

1:31:46

They sort of worked together, but they were

1:31:49

mostly operating as individuals, working alone

1:31:51

to sneak over the border with

1:31:53

goods, printed works. I'm

1:31:56

having flashbacks to your last or

1:31:58

to the beyond stupid robbery. with

1:32:00

those huge books I couldn't even

1:32:02

carry. For real. I know, if

1:32:04

I hadn't used that case for

1:32:06

Beyond Stupid, it might've fit

1:32:08

here, but yeah. A lot of these were

1:32:10

small books. They're

1:32:13

not like rare historical books.

1:32:15

It was a lot of periodicals,

1:32:18

newspapers. I mean, this was just

1:32:20

their, this is their internet. This

1:32:23

is just their access to their information,

1:32:25

their stories, their histories. That's it. Anything

1:32:27

you read. Anything you read. Quote, they

1:32:29

carried books and sacks or covered wagons,

1:32:32

delivering them to stations set up throughout

1:32:34

Lithuania. They performed most of their

1:32:36

operations at night when the fewest guards were

1:32:38

stationed along the border. Winter

1:32:40

months, especially during blizzards, were popular crossing

1:32:43

times, because they were like, covered by

1:32:45

snow. And

1:32:48

the fucking Russian

1:32:50

soldiers that are just standing out there at

1:32:52

the border, which we'll fucking get to, were

1:32:54

so fucking cold and distracted that they could

1:32:56

just sneak by in a covered wagon full

1:32:58

of books. Paint it white, you're fine. Pretty

1:33:01

much. Lithuanians went to

1:33:03

great lengths to conceal their illegal

1:33:05

books. The 40 Years of Darkness

1:33:07

by Yozas Vaisnora reports of

1:33:10

female smugglers who dressed as beggars and

1:33:12

hid books in sacks of cheese, eggs,

1:33:14

or bread. Some even stapled

1:33:16

tool belts to their waists and

1:33:18

pretended to be craftsmen, disguising newspapers

1:33:20

under their thick clothes. Ooh. This

1:33:22

was the only way at the time to

1:33:25

access information that wasn't under Russian imperial control.

1:33:27

So of course it was super fucking dangerous.

1:33:29

And like, honestly, I'm seeing

1:33:31

so much early TikTok band

1:33:34

bullshit in this story. History

1:33:36

always repeats itself. For governments to control

1:33:38

a population, they have to control the

1:33:40

flow of accessible information so they can

1:33:42

then control the narrative about what's happening

1:33:44

in the world. And when folks

1:33:46

find ways to share their stories and truths,

1:33:49

that's a threat to an imperialist system. That's

1:33:51

exactly what was happening then. It's

1:33:54

consistently happening. So like,

1:33:56

keep sharing your stories. So while this grassroots

1:33:58

smuggling ring was already operational, Motius

1:34:02

came in with the funds to organize it on

1:34:05

a larger scale. Now, he's

1:34:07

a bishop, so he deaf had

1:34:10

ulterior motives. Oh. Well,

1:34:12

I mean, with the Imperial

1:34:14

Russian crackdown on Roman Catholicism, he really wanted

1:34:17

to be able to print and distribute more

1:34:19

prayer books in Lithuanian. Like, that was his

1:34:21

first priority. Just because

1:34:24

most of his people could

1:34:26

only read and speak Lithuanian. Correct. Correct.

1:34:30

Correct. And part of this,

1:34:32

quote unquote, Russia-fication, they

1:34:36

scourged the Lithuanian

1:34:38

language prayer books and they were

1:34:40

targeting the Roman Catholic Church, which

1:34:42

was the main religion of the Lithuanians.

1:34:44

And so the Russians are fucking getting

1:34:47

rid of all of that shit. And

1:34:49

so this guy's like, I need to reprep

1:34:52

my shit in Lithuanian. Yeah.

1:34:55

So he's like, hey, Prussia, Russia

1:34:57

with a P, but you're not

1:34:59

associated with them. You're

1:35:01

right next door. Let's make a

1:35:03

deal. So he started sending funds

1:35:06

to neighboring Prussia to literally build his

1:35:08

own printing press so that he could

1:35:10

build religious or write and

1:35:12

print religious materials. Little Gutenberg. Yeah.

1:35:16

So by 1867, he had a network

1:35:18

of priests smuggling the prayer books back into

1:35:21

Lithuania to distribute. I love that. But

1:35:24

as moments do movements do it

1:35:26

grew. The operation grew beyond religious

1:35:28

texts. Mo Mo Che

1:35:30

who's like now I've lost

1:35:33

Mo Mo Teus started commissioning

1:35:35

original Lithuanian works as well

1:35:38

as writing his own with

1:35:40

the expansion of the operation and

1:35:42

moved to become more secular, focusing

1:35:45

on writing and distributing Lithuanian history

1:35:47

and culture and an act of

1:35:49

direct defiance of Russia-vocation. So it's

1:35:51

like, this is our culture. This

1:35:53

is our history. We got to

1:35:55

preserve it. So Mo Teus in

1:35:57

this little Prussian operation of like

1:35:59

a single. fucking printing press printed

1:36:02

upwards of 20,000 works. Holy

1:36:05

shit. Yeah. Oh

1:36:08

my God. They printed a lot of shit. Wow.

1:36:11

So to distribute a growing

1:36:13

volume of these texts, Kenignashai

1:36:15

fucking organized together. They formed

1:36:17

smuggling societies with fun names

1:36:20

like The Morning Star, Simulus,

1:36:22

Rebirth, Afterbirth,

1:36:27

The Truth, The Ray of Light,

1:36:30

I love this. They were fucking

1:36:32

organizing without the internet. This

1:36:35

was like covert letters, word of

1:36:37

mouth. And these folks were able

1:36:39

to make contacts overseas, including as

1:36:41

far as the United States, to

1:36:43

get assistance in printing their texts and importing

1:36:45

them. Oh my God.

1:36:48

Often through Prussia. They distributed

1:36:50

textbooks, yearbooks, science books, fiction,

1:36:53

folklore, religious texts, and more.

1:36:55

Newspapers, Erotica. And those pamphlets,

1:36:58

hopefully Erotica. I didn't see that

1:37:00

explicitly. Twilight. Twilight. The first

1:37:03

edition of Twilight. As

1:37:06

the smuggling operation grew, so did Russia's

1:37:08

security at the border. They

1:37:11

arranged three lines of security. The first

1:37:13

consisting of soldiers lined up so densely

1:37:15

that they could like see

1:37:17

and chat with each other, which

1:37:20

might not sound that impressive, but Russia

1:37:22

is fucking huge. And they were covering

1:37:25

miles of their borders with a fuck ton of

1:37:27

soldiers. So they weren't like shoulder to shoulder, but

1:37:30

they were within like a few hundred yards of

1:37:32

each other. You could like holler at your next body

1:37:35

down the line. God. So

1:37:37

it was like, it was dense. The

1:37:39

second line of defense was another line

1:37:41

of soldiers, but less densely populated. The

1:37:44

third were Russian empire police who focused

1:37:46

on riding into Lithuanian towns and villages,

1:37:48

trying to suss out smuggled materials and

1:37:50

work with local informants, because every resistance

1:37:53

has to be wary of fucking rats.

1:37:57

So if a smuggler was caught by any of

1:37:59

these lines of defense. they would often

1:38:01

be tied to a post and

1:38:03

whipped, then often imprisoned or exiled

1:38:05

to Siberia, or if they tried

1:38:07

to run, they would just be shot and killed right

1:38:10

there on this book for

1:38:12

having books. Extra judiciously. Materials

1:38:15

confiscated from captured smugglers were piled

1:38:18

up and burned. The

1:38:20

burning. The burning. For

1:38:23

years, the movement continued despite death, exile,

1:38:25

and imprisonment. In 1875, Mutius died and

1:38:27

left the burden of leadership on

1:38:32

his successor, a Lithuanian

1:38:34

nationalist named Jurgis Bialenis.

1:38:37

He was pretty fresh out of university and ready

1:38:39

to fuck shit up for the Russian imperialist.

1:38:42

He was over it. He carried

1:38:44

on the operation for over a

1:38:46

decade, creating the Garsvii... Knygnyshay.

1:38:51

Knygnyshay society in 1885.

1:38:55

I'm sorry, I've been drinking. This is hard. This

1:38:58

grew even larger than his predecessor's

1:39:00

operation with members in the thousands

1:39:03

and earned him the nickname King of

1:39:05

the Book Carriers. That's

1:39:07

sweet. Yeah. Nearly

1:39:09

half of all the books brought

1:39:12

into Lithuania through East Prussia can

1:39:14

be attributed to Jurgis. Despite

1:39:16

man hunts and rewards offered for his capture

1:39:18

by the Russians, he was a slippery minx

1:39:21

and managed to evade capture. He was never

1:39:23

caught. Dang. He

1:39:25

was deemed a fugitive by the late 1890s. Quote,

1:39:28

by the late 1800s, the Knygnyshay were

1:39:30

getting creative. Some managed to enlist the

1:39:32

help of Russian police, for example. In

1:39:37

1895, the head officer

1:39:39

of the Ariogala in

1:39:41

central Lithuania joined the

1:39:43

smuggling conspiracy. Others

1:39:45

exploited loopholes in the press ban. In

1:39:48

one instance, Lithuanians printed texts on

1:39:50

slabs of clay as the Babylonians

1:39:52

had once done. Holy shit. To

1:39:55

the chagrin of authorities, clay tablets

1:39:57

weren't considered books, so they technically

1:40:00

illegal. I love that. I

1:40:04

love that they just followed that rule too.

1:40:06

The authorities are like, Oh, shucks. Well fuck.

1:40:08

Well yeah. All right. You can keep your

1:40:11

tablets. Locals

1:40:13

also set up secret schools that

1:40:15

taught Lithuanian children their language using

1:40:17

illegal books because they, the Russia,

1:40:20

Imperial Russia at this time had outlawed any

1:40:23

other education other than yeah,

1:40:26

like Russian sanctioned education. So

1:40:28

any schools that existed were

1:40:30

either destroyed or overtaken by

1:40:32

these new rules.

1:40:34

And so they set up secret schools where

1:40:36

they would like send their kids to the,

1:40:38

to the state sanctioned Russian school. But

1:40:41

then after school, they're

1:40:43

going to Lithuanian school. So to

1:40:45

avoid attention, Lithuanian children still attended

1:40:47

Russia operated state schools, but it

1:40:49

was in the Lithuanian schools. They

1:40:51

were told where their real education

1:40:53

happened. Wow. It's also

1:40:55

important to note that like all

1:40:57

of this was operated by

1:41:00

basically peasants. Like these

1:41:02

folks doing this work were not in

1:41:04

high level positions. Some of the leadership

1:41:06

of this org, like this underground shit

1:41:08

was, but the day to day

1:41:11

carrying out the smugglers, the educators in

1:41:13

these towns, the people creating these schools

1:41:16

were just your neighbors.

1:41:18

They were totally common folk working together

1:41:20

to preserve their histories and share their

1:41:22

truths and teach that to the next

1:41:24

generation. So like it's just a reminder

1:41:26

that the power has always been with the

1:41:28

fucking people. Like any, it doesn't

1:41:30

matter what position you hold,

1:41:32

like you could always contribute to

1:41:36

resistance. It also shows

1:41:38

like how deeply entrenched our identities

1:41:41

are in our culture, our

1:41:44

language, our history, our stories, like

1:41:46

just reading the types of things that they were

1:41:48

able to smuggle in like science

1:41:51

books, folklore, yearbooks, religious

1:41:53

stuff. Like all

1:41:56

of that makes you think about what, how

1:41:58

all of these things come together. and create

1:42:00

the identity of your community and how

1:42:03

much is lost if you

1:42:05

lose your language and your written texts.

1:42:08

Yeah, I mean Russia was working

1:42:11

overtime to wipe out their

1:42:13

history to assimilate them as

1:42:15

Russian. Very intentionally targeting these

1:42:17

things. Mm-hmm. So like

1:42:19

the that when you get rid of

1:42:22

books or literature like this, you're

1:42:24

erasing people histories

1:42:28

of real fucking people.

1:42:30

Mm-hmm that are

1:42:34

Deeply important culturally and societally it's

1:42:37

fucking wild and this directly ties

1:42:39

to the shit that's going on

1:42:41

today Thousand percent. This

1:42:43

is absolutely an imperialist tactic to

1:42:46

like fucking again create

1:42:48

a race communities Erase

1:42:50

communities that are not deemed

1:42:52

worthy and take

1:42:54

over bad Toxic unhealthy bad

1:42:57

for the country and the nation

1:43:00

Right. It's estimated that around this

1:43:02

time the influx of literature between

1:43:05

1891 and 1901 while like Jorgis

1:43:08

was in charge of this operation

1:43:10

Russian officials confiscated nearly 200,000

1:43:14

smuggled publications by 1901 and as

1:43:17

the Lithuanians pressed lol get it

1:43:19

on 1901

1:43:21

to 1904 The

1:43:24

Russians would confiscate nearly 400,000 more

1:43:26

publications. So they're get they're catching

1:43:29

up They're getting they're catching these

1:43:31

people. Well, they're catching Some

1:43:34

of these people but what some

1:43:36

historians believe based on the estimated

1:43:38

number of books Confiscated by Russian

1:43:41

authorities is that Lithuanians were smuggling

1:43:43

in works by the millions Which

1:43:46

I actually completely believed because again,

1:43:48

so percentage-wise is not that much. It's

1:43:50

not that much again. They are

1:43:54

bringing in Underground newspapers some

1:43:56

of which were illegally printed in

1:43:59

a hidden shops right in Lithuanian

1:44:01

villages. Like, this

1:44:03

isn't just millions of

1:44:06

books, it's paper. It's

1:44:09

essentially like anything, a pamphlet in

1:44:11

Lithuanian was banned. So that being

1:44:13

confiscated would have been part of

1:44:15

that 200 to 400,000 number. And

1:44:20

so imagine how much was actually being

1:44:23

printed and circulated if that's how much

1:44:25

they confiscated. Because there's no way they

1:44:27

confiscated all of it. They definitely didn't.

1:44:30

No, definitely not. So I

1:44:32

completely believe that. By the end of

1:44:34

the ban, nearly every Lithuanian town and

1:44:36

village had their own stockpile of illegal

1:44:38

books and a secret Lithuanian school. Like

1:44:41

they were not fucking around. And a

1:44:43

secret Lithuanian school. They were done with

1:44:45

this Russian imperialist bullshit. Oh my God,

1:44:47

I love it. They're just all set.

1:44:50

They laid the groundwork for decades. They

1:44:52

were fine. We're good. Sure,

1:44:55

send us to Siberia, fuck you.

1:44:57

Yeah, we'll bring our

1:45:00

books. Lithuanian peasants were organizing

1:45:02

local board meetings and working together

1:45:04

to petition the Russian government to

1:45:06

overturn the ban. And this was

1:45:08

working. And even Russians

1:45:11

were realizing that the ban was not

1:45:13

fucking cool, especially Russian students and intellectuals

1:45:15

are like, wait, maybe we should let

1:45:17

them read in their own language. Yeah,

1:45:20

maybe. This is gonna sound really radical

1:45:22

you guys, but I don't feel comfy

1:45:24

with this. It makes

1:45:27

me feel squeaky. Makes me feel

1:45:29

so uncomfy. So declared a failure

1:45:31

in 1897, the ban

1:45:33

was finally lifted in 1904. Also

1:45:36

like the resources alone to

1:45:38

enforce this stupid shit. Can

1:45:40

you ima... They deployed so

1:45:43

many resources to crack down

1:45:47

on essentially the written

1:45:49

language. Yeah, yeah. It's a waste.

1:45:51

It's such a fucking waste. Just

1:45:53

let these people fucking live. I

1:45:57

can't. While Russia

1:45:59

thought that... lifting the ban might chill

1:46:01

the Lithuanian resistance out a little bit.

1:46:03

Be like, okay, you can have your

1:46:06

books. Now stop

1:46:08

resisting. Yeah. Nope.

1:46:10

It only gave them more of a voice. So

1:46:13

Jorgis remained steadfast and public in

1:46:15

his defiance of Russia, working to

1:46:18

mobilize Lithuanians toward their independence. And

1:46:20

his leadership helped usher in the

1:46:22

February 1918 act

1:46:24

of independence of Lithuania. So

1:46:27

yes, Lithuania regained their independence

1:46:29

when my grandmother was one.

1:46:34

So like history is just the

1:46:37

present, y'all. Let's not fucking pretend.

1:46:39

The Helen like baseline for all

1:46:41

these historical events. It gets me

1:46:44

every time. It gets

1:46:46

me every time. It's shocking every time.

1:46:48

It's fucking shocking. But

1:46:50

unfortunately, Jorgis would not

1:46:52

live to see it. He died a

1:46:55

month before their independence was formalized. I

1:46:57

believe a word is illness,

1:46:59

like natural causes. He wasn't like taken

1:47:02

out as far as like. Yeah, as

1:47:04

far as I could see. But you know, it's

1:47:07

enough. I mean, that sucks, but he

1:47:09

made it almost till the end. Sad.

1:47:11

Yeah. I mean, he he he did

1:47:14

so much of the organizing to get

1:47:17

to that point and then not to be able to see

1:47:19

it in his lifetime is really

1:47:21

fucking devastating. But I mean,

1:47:23

he certainly died knowing that he was fighting

1:47:25

for his people. And so regardless,

1:47:30

he's a very important historical

1:47:32

and cultural figure, especially to the

1:47:34

Lithuanian people. And he remains to

1:47:36

this day a symbol of culture,

1:47:39

pride and independence in Lithuania with

1:47:41

statues and stamps and a national

1:47:43

holiday the day of the condition

1:47:46

in his honor. Oh,

1:47:49

stamps. And that's my

1:47:51

little case today about book

1:47:53

banning. That was really uplifting.

1:47:55

It's interesting, right? All

1:47:57

this shit is very interesting. There are so many. There's

1:48:00

so many ways to resist babes. Start

1:48:02

your own fucking school. Let's go. Yeah, I'm just

1:48:04

gonna start a school quick. Yeah,

1:48:07

why not? Community school, let's do it.

1:48:09

Well, thank you so much MJ. Yes

1:48:12

MJ, this was fascinating. This was so

1:48:14

fascinating. I feel like I could talk

1:48:16

about this for another week, but I'm

1:48:18

not going to, but I could. Creep

1:48:20

it up on two hours so we

1:48:22

gave you what we promised. We did,

1:48:24

yes. Okay, thank you MJ, thank you

1:48:27

listeners. Thank you so much for listening

1:48:29

and we will see you next week.

1:48:31

Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to Wine and

1:48:33

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1:48:35

Silvan, music by Phil Young and Corey

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Wendell, editing by Jonathan Camp.

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