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1:57

Hi, I'm Ana Marie Cox. And welcome to with friends like these this week.

2:01

I am talking to two people who are, as they say, friendship goals, a relationship they've maintained despite, or perhaps because they've been in the same band for over 30 years.

2:12

Rhett Miller and Marie Hammond are the old 90 sevens and alt rock slash alt country band that survived about 20 different musical trends and is still going strong.

2:24

Their latest album 12th was released last year as we bring our music month and this podcast to a close, I wanted to end with a conversation with friends, exactly like these Rhett and Marie, welcome to the show.

2:42

I'm

2:42

super

2:42

excited

2:42

to

2:42

have

2:42

y'all

2:42

on

2:42

this

2:42

month

2:42

has

2:42

been

2:42

music

2:42

month,

2:42

but

2:42

a

2:42

little

2:42

bit

2:42

of,

2:42

I

2:42

think

2:42

we're

2:42

approaching

2:42

music

2:42

in

2:42

a

2:42

way

2:42

that

2:42

is

2:42

a

2:42

little

2:42

bit

2:42

from

2:42

the

2:42

side,

2:42

which

2:42

is

2:42

talking

2:42

about

2:42

music

2:42

and

2:42

relationships,

2:42

but

2:42

not

2:42

necessarily

2:42

the

2:42

relationships

2:42

that

2:42

are

2:42

sung

2:42

about,

2:42

right,

2:42

but

2:42

how

2:42

relationships

2:42

onstage

2:42

between

2:42

band

2:42

members

2:42

and

2:42

backstage,

2:42

you

2:42

know,

2:42

the

2:42

business

2:42

of

3:10

music. We talked to someone who's like an up-and-coming musician in Nashville to talk about like how that works and y'all are our long-term relationship actually.

3:23

So where the stones were were the glamor twins.

3:27

Okay. And you're also, you've outlasted two of my marriages.

3:30

So I feel like maybe I should get some advice.

3:34

I am actually not entirely kidding about getting advice.

3:37

So

3:37

you

3:37

you've

3:37

been

3:37

in

3:37

band

3:37

together

3:37

for

3:41

2030.

3:41

How

3:44

many? 20 some, Oh, Rick Renton.

3:46

I've been in a band together.

3:49

Quote unquote, since the eighties.

3:51

It's just, it just how it is is the 97 were just like the longest and most recent chapter of all of it.

3:58

But yeah, we, we really, you know, we were in a band in 1990 together and we worked together in 88, 89 and, and we just worked together nearly since the beginning of rec giving of RET doing his thing, Rhett

4:13

doing his thing. Well, do you have a cute meat story?

4:16

How did Yeah,

4:18

we were both dating girls named Jennifer's.

4:21

So we had, we had Jennifer's and our Jennifer's were friends with each other.

4:27

And my Jennifer said to his Jennifer, Hey, I think you'd like my new boyfriend.

4:31

And his Jennifer said, well, he should meet Marie and brought me over to Murray's house.

4:35

And Marie set up a little recorder and I was 15.

4:38

Right. And you recorded my first demos.

4:40

Actually. It was a, you were rehearsing with your Kingston trio folk trio in the maid's quarters of your mom's house.

4:49

Oh, that's right. But, but sorry. Yeah.

4:50

That's a weird, weird, that's a weird thing to call it, by the way it was a There's

4:56

so many stories like that.

4:58

Just in that sentence.

5:00

There's a lot of, It was a garage apartment behind a humble little house that my mom lived in and we did not have a maid, but there was a little tiny gross one-room garage apartment with cockroaches.

5:12

And that's where the musicians got.

5:16

Yeah. It was the teenage basement, but attached to the garage is what it was.

5:21

It was the dumb, the dumb teammate, teenager.

5:25

And Maid's

5:28

quarter.

5:30

He always called it.

5:32

We did call it the quarters. Oh my God. I'd forgotten that.

5:35

We called it the quarters. The Quarters.

5:37

Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

5:40

And you probably played quarters in it.

5:42

Oh yeah.

5:45

It was your den of iniquity.

5:46

So over this past month because of the shit I'd be going through, I've been thinking a lot about relationships in terms of relationships, that last friendships, that last and how they are in art, like, you know, romantic relationships.

5:59

Some people might think that's a facile, you know, comparison is to sort of obvious that platonic relationships are more durable.

6:06

But I do think there's a falling in love moment for friendships.

6:11

Right. It may be less obvious, but do y'all have a falling in love moment, like a time when you were like, oh, this is gonna be, this is gonna be different.

6:19

Yeah. Well, I, I think so.

6:22

I mean, I, I can speak for myself.

6:25

I fell in love with him as his spirit and as a musician, nearly from that moment, it, it was really, for me, we went down to see the Ramones together Within, it was within a few weeks of us meeting and maybe even been within a couple of weeks of us, me and I said, Hey, we're, you know, I can't remember who got the tickets.

6:50

Maybe in those days in rose Ramones might not have even sold out.

6:56

It was 86. And the Longhorn ballroom where the sex pistols played had just started having shows again.

7:02

And yeah.

7:04

Anyway, but I got him in the van and, and he was just this little fresh face, little child with big red cheeks and on the leather jacket.

7:13

And, you know, and I, I simultaneously admired him and felt sorry for him because he was so fragile looking.

7:23

I just thought, like he must've got picked on a lot at school because he was cool and nobody likes cool.

7:31

Nobody likes different.

7:33

Nobody likes rosy cheeks.

7:34

And yeah.

7:36

And I was just like, you know what? I really like him.

7:39

And, and we had a great time last night or that night, you know, you remember right.

7:45

We hung out with chicken George.

7:48

Yeah. Was that the same for you, Brett?

7:50

Did you have the same moment?

7:53

Yeah. Well, you know, our relationship early on was very mentor.

7:56

Like Murray was older and he was wiser and he was the singer of a band.

8:01

I really loved the payoti Cowboys and I'd seen them play at the theater gallery and they were great.

8:07

And he was so great. And it was this three piece.

8:10

He played a 12 string electric guitar and, and, and then so going to see the Ramones whom I loved, but it's one thing to like, love the Ramones and know about the Ramones, but to like be in the Longhorn ballroom with this really cool, like actually successful rock and roller that's, you know, five years, seven years older than me or whatever.

8:30

And, and it was, yeah, it was mind blowing.

8:33

I was, I felt like I had been accepted into a club that I'd always wanted to be in.

8:37

And Marie was my, my, my den mothers slash you know, whatever fraternity brother or whatever.

8:44

It was some, we were somehow family from that day on.

8:49

I just had to do some serious massaging on the term success and successful there.

8:54

So I appreciate that right now.

8:59

It was true. We, we, his first two gigs were with my band and, and yeah, I, I, the first time I saw him, I said, Hey, are you, this is great.

9:09

I adore what you're doing.

9:11

Are you, do you want to come open for us?

9:15

And red said, no, no, I'm not ready. I was like, yes, you are.

9:17

We're playing in two weeks. You're you're opening for a band.

9:21

Yeah. And that was, was it red cross or the Pandora's Cross?

9:25

You had me play in between you guys and red cross did a little, Oh,

9:31

you did. Okay. Yeah. I can remember.

9:33

This is the beginning of it. Y'all I'm not gonna, yeah, that was a, that was a great night too.

9:38

Like April eight, April 87.

9:43

No, this would have been 86 fall of 86.

9:45

So we, we played, it was the second time we played with red cross and oh, no, that was the first time it was the first time was November.

9:54

It was, it was November. I do remember the October 3rd was the day I went over to see you play.

10:02

I still remember that for some reason.

10:04

So it may have even been by the, by, by the end of October of 86, 19 86, crazy 16 year old boy.

10:14

And he had only been 16 for a month.

10:20

I have to say red still could pass for 16.

10:22

I think it's still a fresh faced apple cheat young boy.

10:27

So the music part of this, the, the musical attraction let's stay.

10:33

What was that?

10:34

You said you loved what, what Ray was doing, Marie, what was it?

10:39

What was it that called you?

10:41

Oh, well, he, he was riding, he was riding like, in my mind, like, like classically simple songs.

10:49

He was writing, writing classic songs.

10:52

They were, you know, verse chorus, verse, chorus, middle break there's course out.

10:57

You know, they were, they were like, I want to hold your hand.

11:01

And, you know, in the Yardbirds and they were, they were like 60 songs.

11:05

And, and in the eighties, there was just a lot of large S with songwriting.

11:10

You know, there was a lot of more Grande, you know, everything was the alarm and U2 and NXS and all that.

11:17

And, and, and rep while he was like a huge Bowie guy and all that, but at the beginning, he was very much riding inside this sort of earlier folk tradition that were pre British invasion, folk tradition with the lamplighters in Kingston, trio, and Peter Paul and Mary, and that kind of thing, Pete Seeger and all that.

11:41

And he, and he wrote like that in deal.

11:43

And so, yeah.

11:45

And so I was like, oh, civilization.

11:48

And

11:48

I

11:48

was

11:48

really

11:48

happy

11:48

to

11:48

see

11:48

that

11:48

nobody

11:48

was

11:48

riding

11:48

like

11:53

that. I was trying to like, like that.

11:55

And so, and also saw that like, oh, we could probably actually be in a band together.

12:03

I bet you rent.

12:07

W well, Marie was such a rockstar in those days.

12:10

Like the way he moved around on stage, he had hair down to like the middle of his Babel, his shoulder blade length hair.

12:16

And it was always like naughty and crazy.

12:18

And, and, and of course he taught me that he and his roommates taught me to smoke weed.

12:23

You know, they told me what to be scared of about acid.

12:26

You know, if you're on it, if you're too high, the cure is to take another hit.

12:32

That's what they used to tell me. I'm like, this isn't a bad, and I liked it.

12:38

But yeah, there was, I just felt like, I felt like I had so much to learn about all the things like, obviously there's music, there's the, you know, the, the, just setting up on a stage, how do you deal with the headliner?

12:50

And then there was just the, how do you function in a scene where they're all the bands are different and, and you, you know, like me, I was a teen foci and I was like, like Marie said, opening for red cross.

13:03

And later I'm opening for Lords of the new church.

13:05

And like, in there, I am playing a little folk songs.

13:09

So, but if you are kugel, which, which Murray was, and I was, and I was watching and learning and taking notes, you can fit in.

13:18

So Murray's psychedelic band was able to open for like pretty heavy punk rock bands.

13:23

And, you know, it's, it's all about, it's not about your music sounding the same.

13:28

It's about having like this, you know, playing nice, be cool, be one of the, you know, the friends at the table.

13:35

And it was, it was sweet.

13:37

It was a great lesson and, and joining, joining up and, and it's, that's what music is.

13:43

It's just like collaboration, not just musically, but just day after day, you know, getting into a van and making an environment with a group of human beings and making it pleasant.

13:53

And Murray taught me that I'm

13:56

really interested in, in sort of the musical giant jiving part of this, especially since it's true, you were both playing music that wasn't quite in the same scene as it wasn't quite a part of the scene that you were in.

14:11

And also wasn't necessarily obviously related to each other.

14:16

Right. So what was the chemistry of putting the altogether?

14:22

Like what, what changed for both of you musically when you brought the two great tastes that tastes great, The

14:31

eighties in Dallas, like you would not think that the things would all mix, but it was just, there was only like two clubs, you know, there's theater gallery and profit bar basically.

14:40

And so it had to be in Dover, in and three, on a hill and pale to Cowboys and flaming lips would come through and the butthole surfers would come through and then you'd have a touring act from the west coast, like red cross through.

14:51

And, and then you'd have like, all the weirdos had to stick together, basically.

14:57

Yeah. Or you'd have like a folky like me, or you'd have like Leroy Shakespeare and the ship of vibes, playing reggae music.

15:02

And that eventually you had ed and the new Bohemians when they were just the new Bohemians and they were playing like that barefoot hippie kind of music.

15:09

And, and so like you nowadays, I feel like nobody could imagine like, oh wait, what are these bands?

15:17

I'll do it together. That's crazy. But, you know, we were just doing music and we only had like a couple of clubs to do it.

15:22

And there Russell Hobbs, the guy that ran the clubs put on a savior, we all called it with the savior life festival, but it was, the list was so crazy because it was just the most schizophrenia band list you've ever seen, but it, nobody thought twice about it.

15:39

So it wasn't as weird maybe now as that sounds, Ray

15:43

and I, we were a little bit on the outs.

15:47

I mean, Rhett red had a funny experience that he could tell you about a lot better, but he was a real critics darling there for a time.

15:56

And, but then there was a moment where we were all kind of on the outs with the sane and, and we, and I think it kind of glued retina together in some way.

16:09

We believed in each other when maybe the rest of the same, didn't believe in our, our brand of things so much.

16:17

And this is about, I would say, this is about 19 90, 91, that kind of thing.

16:23

And, and retina were a little, a drift for awhile, sorta create creatively.

16:29

We, we had our loyalties to each other and we had, we, we believed in what each other was doing.

16:38

And, and the rest of the scene, it was really dominated by very artsy jam based music.

16:46

Everything was very kind of, you know, sort of funky and jazzy, new Bohemians.

16:52

They came, they came out of that, that scene.

16:54

It didn't produce big punk rock bands where we were at.

16:58

It was, it was all very artsy.

17:00

And we were still hugging to that kind of sixties, seventies and fifties con yeah.

17:09

A lot of power pop and, you know, things like the Everly brothers, you know, like, like em, beetles and things like that.

17:16

And yeah, and, and that, that was a glue for us.

17:19

And yeah, it's really not bad to be, be an outsider in a sane.

17:24

It really does get, it really does quite nice things, but yeah, but, but relation relationship wise, you know, we, we had a community around us, but the community that really understood what we were doing was rent and me and a community of two.

17:47

And probably more than that.

17:49

But in, for me, it was, it was red.

17:54

Yeah. It was funny because right around that time, it did start to harden.

17:57

And I think part of it was the new bows exploded.

18:00

Like I remember island records did the sounds of deep Ellum the buck pets got signed.

18:07

Like there was all this, there was all this success, all of the sudden.

18:11

And then there was more than two clubs.

18:13

Now there was like five or six clubs.

18:15

There was bands every night.

18:17

And then that was when we felt this really strongly in around 92 when 93, when the grunge explosion happened.

18:30

And all of a sudden the labels really did start getting applied and they would look at us and go, whoa, what are you?

18:35

And I'm like, I don't know, I'm wearing converse with duct tape on them.

18:38

I'm playing a shitty electric guitar. So I guess we're growing.

18:42

And then we, we stood on it.

18:45

We stood up on a stage long enough w you know, trying to wearing this ill-fitting suit.

18:50

And th this is to say like, maybe three gigs where we were like, so what do we fit into this scene?

18:55

And then we were like, oh, I remember the night Maria.

18:58

And I lived together in Markita courts and SNL had a Nirvana on, and we looked at each other and we're like, that was incredible.

19:05

We can't do this anymore because we're not that we're not even close to that.

19:11

Right. Do you remember like that, Marie? Yeah.

19:13

Yeah. I, you know, when you and I basically started this band, it was when you had gone to work or something.

19:22

I was at home and I had just stayed up the night before listening to the Everly brothers and Hank Williams and, and, and living with the singer of flight, one of the Primo quote, grunge bands in Dallas, which was Funland, they were called Funland and Peter singer was, was my roommate.

19:43

And I was just like, it just hit me.

19:46

I was like, this is ridiculous, Ray.

19:48

And I are just, we are, I wandered so far from home, you know, from where we had kind of like when we were really true believers of our own thing.

19:58

And we were, I think we're just so happy to get gigs and just kind of be able to be loud and the sort of surface fun of all that.

20:09

But there was nothing deeper than that.

20:12

And it was so, and it was a, it was a real moment.

20:16

He had, he had played, he was feeling the blues too.

20:20

And when we were down there and a little coffee shop called the Chumley's and he had played me this little song, he wrote as a little country song.

20:28

Cause he was already writing, writing that direction anyway.

20:32

And, and it was called St.

20:35

Ignatius. And, and later it would open up the first old 97 records that we recorded, but I couldn't get the song out of my head, but more than that, I couldn't get the spirit of it.

20:47

It had absolutely went back to the days when we really believed in ourselves, you know, plea in the face of all in the face of everybody telling us that like, no, no, no, you need to kind of go bigger than this.

21:05

And, and it was such a mustard seed.

21:08

And I was like, eh, and then, so I called red up or I wrote him an older son.

21:12

I said, I went to guitar center today.

21:15

I got rid of my electric bass.

21:17

I bought an acoustic bass.

21:20

Here's what we're going to do.

21:22

You and I are going to like break up this grunge band quote unquote, and let's just go back to what we used to do.

21:30

Let's just not give a flip about record deals or trying to play at the big clubs, the big clubs, meaning like club Clearview, these clubs, they were like 300 capacity clubs, huge, you know, and, and let's go back to like how we were, we didn't care about that stuff.

21:50

Let's just play coffee houses and Cisco back, you know, that's the portal forward, you know?

21:58

So I was going to say like, all right, I was going to ask you, if you could point at a song where you, you knew that you clicked, that you were like, this is, this is what we're going to do.

22:09

Is that the song right?

22:11

Was that the song for you?

22:13

Well, Murray produced a record I made in high school.

22:17

And there were some moments on that because Murray at the time was making an album that you released on cassette only, I think called the water Ling wheel and his album, the water link wheel was very much like a Syd Barrett.

22:32

I don't, I mean, Marie, I don't mean to, Oh

22:35

yeah. I was sitting there. It was a, a massive earth shaking thing.

22:40

So yeah, so I did this cassette, So

22:42

it was like a lot of 12 string guitar.

22:44

And a lot of like this really beautiful to call it psychedelic is, is a misleading a little bit, but it was this really beautiful stuff.

22:52

And then Marie came in and did produced my solo records when I was like 17 years old.

22:58

And, and a lot of what we did was the real kind of folky.

23:03

We had the, the drummer from the new Bohemians come in and do like T you know, whatever hand drums.

23:09

And it was very that kind of vibe, but there were some moments where Marie would play electric guitar that would get kind of like this waterline wheel sound.

23:19

And we, we would do things where all of a sudden it felt like we were making music together.

23:24

Like he was producing me, but we were also like really collaborating.

23:27

And it was feeling like we felt like a band, like the beginning of a band.

23:32

And so then we did, he convinced me to drop out of Sarah Lawrence, give up my full scholarship, which now that I have an 18 year old, who's waiting to hear back from colleges, just stomach turned to even think about that.

23:45

So,

23:45

so

23:49

yeah. So w we came back to Dallas and started our band sleepy heroes, which was like a power pop three piece band.

23:57

And that was so fun, but that was, that was so that was me and Marie staying up every night until three or four in the morning, you know, eating Reese's and smoking pot and drinking strawberry milk and, and like writing these power pop songs.

24:11

And, and that was so collaborative in fact, right, right now, Marie and I, I I'd had this idea for the next old 90 sevens record.

24:20

I really wanted to, and it actually goes well with the theme of your podcast right now, I really wanted to fly out to LA and just be with Marie and write songs.

24:29

Like we used to just sit in a room and go, Hey, what about, what if we did this?

24:33

And just try to sit down and write a song.

24:35

Cause now mostly it's, he'll say I've got this piece and he'll send me a recording of it, or I'll bring in a complete song.

24:41

Or, you know, it's, it's a very rarely strawberry milk in the solitude of night, as I said, in 17 magazine in 1989 or whatever.

24:49

But that's what I'd like to do again, because that's, that's an incredible feeling to just sit down with your friend and where there was nothing suddenly there is something beautiful, But

24:59

if we had to play something for people to hear what you might think of as that first spark, what can we play out to an ad right now?

25:10

So St. Ignatius I think would be as good as any, because we had done all of these things that hinted at what we could do together.

25:17

And, and they were all interesting, certainly and useful, but none of them was successful by which, I mean, none of them really succeeded as its own piece of art maybe.

25:27

And until St.

25:30

Ignatius and Saint Ignatius kind of has it all because it's Marie and I, with our weird, you know, folk slash psychedelic slash Carter family song structure, it's, it's me singing about Play-Doh and a country song, you know, and we'd finally found the, you know, the foils to our Everly brothers duo and Ken and Phillip, and I think yeah, of, of all of our songs that the, the, the opening track on the first old 90 sevens albums St.

26:01

Ignatius probably best represented Outside

26:12

of the bus.

26:17

So Greg's just stand in your way and our skin, we don't drown, just drag With

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That's stamps.com, enter code friends So

31:51

you thought that song would make a good bookend to St.

31:56

Ignatius. I mean, to me, yeah, that song is such a time saving may shift.

32:02

I wrote in a, a large closet under the stairs that led to the apartment above mine in Markita courts.

32:09

I was living with Ivy at the time we had just started we Marie and I had just sort of come up with the idea to do whatever this thing.

32:18

Or as he explained, like this was the very earliest days of, of old 90 sevens.

32:22

So when I was writing the dropouts, I was traveling in my mind back to that same apartment complex.

32:29

And you know, it's, that's, you know, everybody's flying in a harmony rocket, that's the kind of guitar that kin kin, but they moved in across the hall from Marie and we'll leave his door open and you could see he had this cool hollow body, like rockabilly guitar, this harmony rocket, and it's a cheap guitar, but it was so cool again.

32:47

And then we heard him playing accordion and we're like, maybe that guy could be in our band with us.

32:53

But

32:53

yeah,

32:53

that's,

32:53

to

32:53

me,

32:53

that's

32:53

that

32:53

song

32:53

is,

32:53

it's

32:53

so

32:58

fun. You were the dropouts, like we all had dropped out of school to, to some degree we had all were, we were all attending the school of hard knocks and we were getting this education working at restaurants or at answering services, doing these horrible jobs.

33:14

And the only light at the end of the tunnel was this possibility that our bands could be more than just free drinks, you know?

33:24

And, and I, but I do think we believed that even in the darkest days, I, I thought we knew that we were, we had value beyond just being, you know, sad guys that could talk about the dreams we had once had and had now given up, Where

33:39

is he romanticizing that at all?

33:42

Well, you know, as soon as he, as soon as he said the drop, I was like, oh, wait a minute.

33:46

Yeah, the dropouts, we dropped down in our twenties and here we are.

33:51

Yeah, yeah. That's the dropout he's talking about.

33:53

Yeah. Yeah. The one that last year, entire life and happily, we found this music world in our twenties.

34:00

So we could like take, take several bites out of it, you know, 10 year blinds.

34:07

So

34:07

yeah,

34:07

he's

34:07

romanticizing

34:07

it

34:07

and

34:07

he

34:07

should,

34:07

he

34:07

should

34:07

romanticize

34:13

it. Cause that's at the end of the day, that's how I experienced it.

34:18

It was really interesting talking to Kathy Valentine about her experience with the Go-Go's because, you know, they made it big immediately basically.

34:26

Right? Like it, they didn't have a super long time of being the struggling band, you know, playing for tips and whatnot.

34:33

But you, what you were saying reminded me of what she said, because she does romanticize it.

34:41

It's just, she had missed, like, that was the best time of her life.

34:43

I mean, just objectively, like why would you romanticize it?

34:48

Right.

34:48

So

34:48

what's

34:48

the

34:48

best

34:48

time

34:48

of

34:48

your

34:48

life

34:48

right

34:48

now,

34:48

writing

34:48

songs,

34:48

the

34:48

fact

34:48

that

34:48

you

34:48

wrote

34:48

a

34:48

song

34:48

about

34:48

when

34:48

you

34:48

got

34:48

together,

34:48

I

34:48

mean,

34:48

that's

34:48

just

34:48

algia

34:48

but

34:48

what's

34:48

the

34:48

best

34:48

part

34:48

of

34:48

being

34:48

together

34:48

now,

35:05

Man, I, I have a hard time with nostalgia and I feel like whenever I do the thing where I, you know, comparison is the death of joy and I look at someone's life and I think, why do they get to have $150,000 guaranteed?

35:20

Why do they get the headline Carnegie hall, whatever the thing you can think when you, when you begrudge someone else their success, which what a shitty thing to do anyway.

35:28

But you know, I've been, I feel like I've been pretty good about not going too far down that rabbit hole.

35:36

The, one of the things I come back to is the idea that I have lots of friends who had a hit, maybe it was in the nineties and it's, it, it, it calcifies you during a moment in time and then the rest of your life.

35:51

It's funny for, for Cathy, you know, talking to her about the Go-Go's, it was five years of her life and it's been over for decades.

36:01

They

36:01

do

36:01

every

36:03

unions. I know. Right.

36:06

But

36:08

When she talks about the greatest time of her life though, it's not like the 88 reunion.

36:12

Right. I did see that. And it was a great tour.

36:19

I was there, We were there, but There

36:21

was a war between red cross and the audience that night.

36:24

Do you remember that?

36:26

Yes. The band was at war with the audience.

36:28

They nearly just got chairs thrown at them by the end of Roll rock and roll.

36:40

I think you were making a good point, right. About having how having a hit calcifies you.

36:45

Yeah. But, but, so I think this weird career that we've, I would say we backed into it, but I do think that's sort of selling ourselves short, even when we were wined and dined by 15 record labels offering as the moon, we always said, we don't care about having a hit.

37:01

We want to have a long career. We want a catalog that we'll never be embarrassed of.

37:06

So we didn't do what a lot of bands did, where you go find the flavor of the moment and you go make a song.

37:11

That's like, you know, one of those, the nineties, those insipid songs that were like, so I saw, and there's like some like overproduced thing and it gets played on a one tree hill or Dawson's Creek and you make a million dollars, but then the rest of your life, you're like, do you remember me?

37:28

I was in that band in the nineties that had that song or whatever.

37:32

And it's just an embarrassing moment that you can maybe live off of the rest of your life.

37:38

The good thing is for us that we've never had that.

37:40

So I feel like each record we make is our best record.

37:44

And each step of our career is the most fun step of our career.

37:48

Like we have all this stuff coming up next year.

37:51

Some of which, because of non-disclosure agreements, I'm not allowed to discuss, but I promise you that when I get to an outset, you'll go like, oh, that's what he was talking about.

38:00

We have this amazing stuff coming up.

38:02

It's so fun Is

38:06

that it, now They get to most unexpected thing that people do these days and it's randomly going to space.

38:16

I think that's the So,

38:19

but the good thing for us is there, there were dark times, certainly when the record label imploded and that coincided with me starting to make solo records and the band had to figure out if they, if the band could survive me, making solo records and for a minute it looked and go like there were dark times, but w you know, it's like there are every, every year of our band has had glorious moments.

38:45

And, and I don't, I look back sometimes on like 99.

38:48

And I think maybe that was the peak because we sold our most records.

38:53

The world was still our oyster.

38:56

Like there was still the possibility that we could go on to be one of those bands that had a giant hit, but I don't know, I didn't enjoy 99 as much as I enjoyed, you know, 2014 in some ways.

39:09

So, yeah.

39:12

You know, we, we, we always had the most fun in this band when it just seems like things were moving forward, whatever it was, it it's, it's the addiction to progress that has always been so wonderful in a band.

39:29

You know, that's why, like my favorite moment in the 90 sevens is that period when we've just finished an album, but it isn't out yet.

39:38

You go through this little tunnel, it's various lengths of time.

39:43

It's at least a few months, sometimes it's longer, but it's just pure, you know, it, it's just pure possibility.

39:53

You just swam and possibility are slathered in it.

39:58

And it's just, it's just so wonderful.

40:00

And we're, you know, and those old days, quote, unquote, there was a lot of that, but that's just because it was a lot of first, the first time we got to be on a record label in Chicago with bloodshot, first time we ever got to do a major label thing, or first time we ever heard ourselves on the radio first, this first that, and, and yeah, that's, that's, that's lovely.

40:24

That's, that's our five years of the Go-Go's for us, but happily, we still get to do that.

40:32

Cause like Rhett said, we didn't get calcified early on with that odd hit that, you know, in, in a pop culture way, pinned us to the wall where we could never unpinned ourselves and we're permanently in a mural of what was happening at that time.

40:55

And yeah.

40:56

And when people talk about nineties bands, quote, unquote, I don't have to be, I have to remind myself, oh, are we a nineties band?

41:05

And somebody will say, oh, I don't know.

41:07

Kind of, you know, we're not really an audience span.

41:11

We're not a 2000 span. We're just kind of this long thing that are the stones, a sixties band.

41:17

No, cause they're not Herman's hermits, you know, That

41:23

was the plan all along that. Yeah, man.

41:27

Yeah. We figured that that was the, if in the unlikely case that we don't have one of those cuckoo hits, you know, that we would just read the plus column to ourselves and that's what it was the plus column was that, yeah, we're, we're to way more have like the butthole surfers kind of thing, you know, we're way more going to have like this sort of more cultish, you know, sort of audience and all that.

41:55

And it'll just free us to do whatever we want forever, you know, and we still do it and yeah.

42:02

And happily, you know, our, our sound is very much a family sounds.

42:07

So the next record is always sits nicely next to the ones before.

42:11

And then over time you get, we get to have this really lovely, amazing, you know, discography that I'm really proud of, you know?

42:21

And yeah. And, and, and more than anything, I'm just, I'm just proud of like, okay, it has been a family sound this whole time, the band members themselves are kind of this family thing.

42:32

It's been that way. The whole time family, family, family, everything's sort of had this thread that's been on broken.

42:40

I see exactly what you're talking about in terms of the longevity of the old 90 sevens and them, it's funny when you say their family first, I was like, do you mean you don't curse in songs, but I don't think that's what you mean instead.

42:54

It's I, I think what you mean, there is like an intimacy when you have a band, but hasn't had a big hit, right?

43:01

Like when you're a fan of a band that's that's like the old, nice Evans, like every old, nice seven show I've ever been to, has everyone is super fucking psyched to be there, right?

43:13

Like there's no like blahzay attitude towards an all night, all night sevens, you know, you're not like trying to get the crowd worked up.

43:20

It feels like to me, maybe, maybe I, of course I've missed some, you're the ones that play every show.

43:26

Well, I think one thing that Marie is referring to goes hand in hand with what you're saying, that we're like a secret that people get to share.

43:34

And a lot of times what's happened recently in the last 10 years or so is that our fans have grown up to the point where they then have families of their own and they share it with their kids.

43:43

So we'll see parents and kids, and now those kids will have kids and it's kind of insane, but we do wind up having entire families come and, you know, we do.

43:53

Cause if you stick around long enough, you lose friends and you lose collaborators.

43:57

And, you know, we ended up getting a lot of stories of, you know, friends or fans whose dads have passed away.

44:06

And we were their favorite band or, you know, it's the, the, the, the mortality that is on display with groups of people with, you know, who feel like a family like we do with our fans.

44:19

It's just, it's, it's a lot, it can be a lot, you know, and, and I, you know, I've, I have a hard time not getting really emotionally affected by it.

44:30

In fact, I don't keep myself from it.

44:32

Cause I feel like it's good to just experience this stuff, but it is, it can be really heartbreaking to hear the stories of people whose lives you've touched and then maybe they've moved on.

44:41

And Yeah,

44:43

I

44:43

think

44:43

that

44:43

that's

44:43

really

44:43

a

44:43

wise

44:43

point

44:43

to

44:43

make

44:43

about

44:43

the

44:43

fact

44:43

that

44:43

when

44:43

you're

44:43

together

44:43

for

44:43

a

44:43

long

44:43

enough

44:43

to

44:43

pass

44:43

through

44:43

different

44:43

stages

44:43

of

44:43

life,

44:43

that

44:43

some

44:43

people

44:43

do

44:43

even

44:43

pass

44:43

to

44:43

the

44:43

final

44:43

stage

44:43

of

44:43

life,

44:43

like

44:43

that

44:43

does

44:43

create

44:43

a

44:43

kind

44:43

of

44:43

intimacy

44:43

that

44:43

no

44:43

other

44:43

friendship

44:43

than

44:43

a

44:43

friendship

44:43

doesn't

44:43

have

44:43

until

44:43

it's

44:43

gone

44:43

through

45:13

that. Right. Like unfortunately, sometimes that happens, right?

45:17

I mean, people die young and friendships can, can gain that pattern of loss all too quickly.

45:24

But I think I get what you're saying, like to survive that Well,

45:29

it's funny because when you start it's about free drinks, it's about, you know, appealing to the opposite sex or whatever shallow thing.

45:38

But as you go, there's a moment there's, there's these milestones for me, there was realizing that there is a nobility to this thing that we're doing.

45:47

Like there's, we're, we're making something beautiful and giving it to the world.

45:51

And we, we sacrifice security.

45:55

We sacrifice sort of time at home with our kids.

45:59

We sacrifice like the kind of normal, quiet life that, that sometimes you really pine for.

46:04

So

46:04

realizing

46:04

that

46:04

is,

46:04

is

46:04

empowering

46:04

because

46:04

it

46:04

makes

46:04

you

46:04

feel

46:04

like,

46:04

okay,

46:04

cause

46:04

there's

46:04

always

46:04

the

46:12

question. Did I waste my life? You know, there's, there's these forking paths.

46:15

And you wonder if I had gone down that path, how much happier would I be?

46:19

But, but we're on this path and this path has inherent value and it's really beautiful.

46:25

But then as you get older, you know, we've had health scares in our band knock wood.

46:29

I feel like everybody's pretty good now, but you know, Ken was worried about his health recently.

46:33

I mean, in, at any given moment, we've all had, you know, brushes with mortality and eventually one of us will die.

46:43

That's just how things are, But

46:45

unusual if no one did, But

46:50

okay. So like when you think about a long marriage, right?

46:53

There's, it's so easy to come up with reasons why you would get the hell out of this marriage.

46:59

This person's driving me crazy ditto for a band, but what are the, what's the argument for staying in it?

47:07

Well, a shared history, you know, a long life together where you can point to, you know, important moments in milestones and meaningful, you know, things that you've made together experience together.

47:21

Like that's, that's something you can't start from scratch and come up with within a year.

47:27

Like it takes, that's the whole point.

47:29

It takes 25, 30 years, you know, I'm coming up on 20 years of marriage right now.

47:34

And it's that same question of, to stay married or not to stay married.

47:38

You wake up every day with the option.

47:40

Both of those things are on the table.

47:41

And, and if you choose to stay married, you, you haven't thrown away the opportunity for the shared experience.

47:50

In fact, there's a song on the newest old 90 sevens album called the old Belmont hotel.

47:55

And when I wrote it, I was using a hotel as a metaphor for a long love relationship.

48:01

And it's, you know, our love is like the old Belmont hotel.

48:05

It was in ruins.

48:07

Now it's doing quite well. And it goes through all these, you know, metaphorical things that were bad and other good and, and it gets to the bridge, which is always, almost always the bridge is like the let's let's sum the song up for the listener.

48:20

So many times good buildings get torn down, raise to the ground because work is hard to do.

48:27

And

48:27

that's

48:27

the

48:30

band. Then I remember when I was writing it, I remember thinking, well, this, this is a, it's kind of using a bit as a hotel, as a metaphor, but really what I'm doing is I'm using a love relationship as a metaphor for this other love relationship that I've had with my three best friends for 30 years almost.

48:48

I was going to ask about the rough stuff. Actually, I don't mean to saddle you with that question, but read did just talk for a long time.

48:56

So what is, what is the secret to a happy marriage?

49:01

I mean, I, I think that you're right, just the shared history.

49:04

In some ways doesn't get enough weight.

49:08

Maybe if I can be an oldster in this day and age, you know, when everything is new all the time.

49:15

I think sometimes the idea that just the simple fact of a shared history can be discounted a little bit, but there must be other ways that you get through the hard times, right?

49:29

Like Rhett was just talking about the time that the record label imploded and he was doing a solo album like Murray, from your point of view, what was the rough stuff you had to go through and then survive?

49:41

Well, the, the rough stuff, you know, bands that last a long time, the word glue is I would probably say in the top two or three words that you always hear their bands get glued together through adversity, that that shared history, that could be anything.

50:03

It could be a lot of boredom and, and nothing happening, but nothing happening to the same four people that wasn't really us for us.

50:13

There was a great deal of just, you know, sort of shared goals, shared values and, and shared adversity.

50:23

And, you know, the it's how much glue you can get out of simply having the same memory of sleeping in the van during an ice storm and passing the whiskey around and trying to stay warm and turning the engine on and then going to sleep and then waking up in a fit because you're going to afraid you're going to die a carbon monoxide.

50:50

So you turn it off again and then you freeze to death and then you turn it back on again.

50:56

And you just, and just, just these kind of these kind of gluing moments, they, they take on a lot for people like us.

51:08

And so when we hit moments of, you know, we're, we're challenged, you know, when rep was going.

51:15

So it was the first time that we, you know, our, our unit was we, all of a sudden we were missing one of us and, and, and it was sad and we didn't know what to do with it.

51:32

We were sad. And then we got mad at ref for being the one missing.

51:35

And even though our band wasn't ending or anything, but it, but it scared us because we, we had built up a great deal of, we, we, we, we realized we already knew how much we valued our friendship and our band, but we were scared that we wouldn't have that anymore.

51:56

And, and that's scary, you know, that's scary, like red says scary in a marriage.

52:01

What Rhett was simply proposing was an open relationship, Open

52:11

Relationship, I think, does not get good enough, you know, celebration.

52:15

I think I, that, that, that's, that's the part of marriage where the ban is, might be a little bit different than normal marriage open relationship is where open relationship is, is usually really quite successful in a band I'm

52:32

going to ask about cause yes, unfortunately you got me thinking the same exact way with that metaphor, but I wonder if maybe it's not an open relationship, it's just having a life outside, right?

52:46

Like it's not that you're having a relationship with someone else or that it also could be in a different band, I think.

52:52

But the point is, you're just, you remain a single person.

52:57

In addition to being a part of something For

53:00

me, it was, We're

53:02

talking about I

53:08

do think there's useful stuff in here that, you know, transferable credits as it were like being in a band is great.

53:18

It's a democracy. Like the sum is greater than the parts or whatever that expression is.

53:23

But you know, me, like I was, I was getting told no a lot, you know, because I had to submit to the greater will of the band.

53:32

And so a lot of times that's what breaks the band up.

53:37

Right. And I, and I could see if I kept having to just sort of eat it and not get my way over and over and over again, eventually I'd be like, screw you guys.

53:47

I'm going to go do my thing.

53:49

But I thought there's no reason I can't go and get my Yaz out, making this weird record and then come back to the band.

53:57

You know? So I guess how it would transfer is I think that you could just, if you have needs, why, why hide them and resent the other person for not meeting them when you could just go to the other person and say, I need to go make this weird record with John Bryan and then I'll come back and make records with you guys too.

54:17

So, I mean, I just, I spoke up for myself.

54:20

I did what, why I encourage my kids to do all the time.

54:23

I self advocated and they were, they were great.

54:26

They were super cool about it. I mean, it was, it was rough, but it wasn't, you know, a band killer And

54:32

it took a lot of pressure off the 90 sevens, you know, for, for residue, go, go solar, the way it did, that was what needed to happen to take, you know, you, you, you don't want to just make a band, provide every single thing when, when it's not really built to do that, it's really built to do some things quite well.

54:52

And yeah, and, and I'm in the same boat, you know, I've Recorded

54:58

solo as well Record.

55:00

So I record solo now, you know, and yeah, and, and a bank can only kind of contain so much unless you're the Beatles putting out two albums a year or something like that, you know, you know, theoretically we could do every single thing and the old 90 sevens, but there'd be like four records a year.

55:22

It'd be crazy. And they wouldn't all be good.

55:24

You know, they'd be all over the place, you know, which, you know, there'd be a reggae record, you know, there'd be too much.

55:34

And so yeah, it, it, it really, it really kinda did what rent rent needed to do that.

55:43

And there's, there's no good time to do that.

55:47

You just gotta do it when inspiration strikes and that's the time to do it.

55:53

That's the good time to do it. And that was when, you know, and, and he was probably late doing it.

55:59

He probably needed to do that a year before When

56:03

you go away for a little while for the band and then come back, what effect does that have on the music?

56:11

It's funny for me, because since 2001 I've been doing that, it's almost perfect alternation between solo record band record.

56:20

And it's great because, you know, I get lonely at, by myself and I'm like, God, I miss those guys.

56:26

And then I'll go back in and we'll make a record, the tour, the record.

56:29

And then I'm like, oh my God, I need to get the hell away from these guys and start the cycle all over it.

56:36

Yeah.

56:36

Chasing

56:36

the

56:39

dragon.

56:42

Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah.

56:45

It's nice that nobody, nobody really gets truly sick of each other.

56:51

We just, we, we, we get together.

56:53

We, we go through a whole experience of, we get a full belly, we get a full belly and that's usually about the time something different happens.

57:04

Anyway, we take time off for this, this or that and do our other projects.

57:09

And yeah, it's, it's been, it's been a nice rhythm.

57:13

I don't think we've ever hit where just like, oh my God, there's just been too much.

57:19

90 sounds. Let's do something else for a little bit.

57:22

It's always been kind of just enough.

57:24

And it just sort of naturally has kind of worked itself out.

57:29

So let's play out to rollerskate skinny, and then we'll come back from ads.

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1:04:17

we've been using this metaphor or making a comparison between a bad relationship in a romantic relationship.

1:04:24

And, and you've talked about what you think the old nice Evan's work.

1:04:27

If I had to ask you outright, what would be your advice to a band?

1:04:32

Let's let's not say re I, I am curious what you'd say to a couple, but let's start with another band.

1:04:37

What would you say?

1:04:41

I'll go.

1:04:42

I

1:04:42

learned

1:04:42

because

1:04:42

of

1:04:42

my

1:04:42

personality

1:04:42

is

1:04:42

that

1:04:42

I

1:04:42

always

1:04:42

want

1:04:42

to

1:04:42

micromanage

1:04:50

everybody. I have all the answers. I can tell you how to do that.

1:04:52

Let me walk.

1:04:53

I learned that I had to stop.

1:04:56

Stop, listen, be quiet.

1:05:00

Don't don't try and impose my will.

1:05:03

Don't try and control everything.

1:05:05

Let the other person do what they need to do.

1:05:11

And basically what I think it comes down to is ego.

1:05:16

I had to sort of check my ego and I think that when you sublimate yourself to a band or a relationship or whatever, you're never going to win every fight you're going to have to let the other person take up some space in the room you're going to have to give.

1:05:32

And it was really hard for me and it took years and years, and I still haven't completely mastered it, but, but I think that's, I think that's the biggest trick is to, is to give, let the other person when some, maybe they're right.

1:05:49

Yeah. Yeah. He, he, he does.

1:05:51

He does pretty good. He does.

1:05:53

He does. Pretty good.

1:05:54

Yeah, no, I, I, I would say, you know, as much as you can do remember the, the, the friendship and the bond you had when you first started all this stuff before all the, before all the, what became very complicated conversations about creativity and getting to songs and career decisions and that kind of thing.

1:06:21

And, and I would say really, truly value.

1:06:24

Remember

1:06:24

that

1:06:24

your

1:06:24

values

1:06:24

are,

1:06:24

are

1:06:24

pretty,

1:06:24

pretty

1:06:24

close

1:06:24

to

1:06:24

pretty,

1:06:24

pretty

1:06:24

much

1:06:24

the

1:06:34

same. I mean, they're very similar values and your goals are very similar.

1:06:37

Just, just don't forget your, the, the friendship part of it, because that, that will carry you through everything that will be the lantern that leads you to compromise that, you know, that that's the skeleton key, that, that can get you past a lot of difficult, complicated moments with each other that, you know, in another van could, you know, could become a virus and infection that ultimately brings a band down from, from inside, you know, and yeah.

1:07:17

And it's worked for us maybe ma I think we got lucky with, we have four individuals that can take that, you know, that those operating instructions and kind of successfully do it, but, but we also committed ourselves to doing it.

1:07:37

We already knew that, that, you know, the, the, the bond or the friendship was going to be hugely important in the life of this band.

1:07:47

So, yeah, that's, that's, that's what I think A

1:07:53

little bit about your sobriety.

1:07:54

Not at all.

1:07:56

I'm six and a half years into sobriety right now.

1:07:59

It's the, it's the secret to happiness for me in my middle age.

1:08:07

And I love it. And I highly recommend it to anyone that wonders if they could do it.

1:08:13

And it's so funny, I used to feel so sorry for people that had to get sober.

1:08:19

I'd be like, oh my God, your life must be so boring and so sad.

1:08:24

You never have any fun.

1:08:26

You never laugh. You don't get to get wasted like me and my buddies, but there is a there's happiness on the other side.

1:08:33

And it's a lot clearer.

1:08:35

It's a lot, it's a lot truer.

1:08:38

I feel like, and I've never regretted it.

1:08:42

I've never looked back. It's hard during the holidays being around the world, you know, the alcoholic world, which is a K a, you know, the world, it's, you kind of don't really realize until you're on the other side, just how fueled by booze, you know, the, the folks around you are.

1:09:05

And that, that goes, I don't think just for people in bands, but I think that's, you know, people in families, people in jobs, people in everywhere, and it can be exhausting.

1:09:15

I was at a holiday party last night and, and sometimes you're just sitting there going, like, I wish you folks could see yourselves.

1:09:23

I mean, I don't want to judge you, but you're making it really hard.

1:09:28

I,

1:09:28

I

1:09:28

mean,

1:09:28

I'm

1:09:28

joking,

1:09:28

but

1:09:28

I

1:09:33

do. I really value it.

1:09:35

I, the choice that I made for me had a lot to do with my kids.

1:09:39

They were young and now they're, you know, fricking giant, but I didn't, I never wanted the phone to ring and my son or my daughter to be in a compromised situation and need my help and may not be able to help them.

1:09:52

And so that was sort of what pushed me over the edge.

1:09:55

I dealt, I don't know if my marriage would have kept working.

1:09:58

If I hadn't gotten sober.

1:09:59

I, I didn't realize until I was sober, how much I needed to get sober.

1:10:04

And, and that's coming from a guy that used to, I used to write myself notes late at night, you know, in a haze and say, it's time.

1:10:13

It's time now is the time you're gonna wake up tomorrow.

1:10:15

And you're going to think that this isn't true, but it's true.

1:10:17

And I would wake up and crumple it up and throw it away until I didn't.

1:10:22

And, you know, I'm so glad that I got there because I've never looked back.

1:10:27

It's, it's a beautiful world.

1:10:30

And I will, I will pipe up that I have recently made a commitment to being sober as well and needed happened for me as well.

1:10:43

I had a sort of a slow burn.

1:10:46

I I've been on and off with drinking for years and years and years, I went years without drinking.

1:10:52

And then sort of readopting it again when I was going through a divorce, so drinking, because I was sad and scared, and then it went away again and it came back again and, and sort of, you know, COVID happened to be the, the calendar year that it sort of ramped up to a point with me that I just, I just needed to get rid of it.

1:11:18

I'm 57.

1:11:18

This

1:11:18

is

1:11:18

not

1:11:18

something

1:11:18

to

1:11:18

take

1:11:18

into

1:11:18

my

1:11:18

sixties

1:11:18

mentally

1:11:18

or

1:11:23

physically. And yeah.

1:11:25

And you know, red is going to be one of my sober buddies that I know I can always call if I can say right.

1:11:34

You're right. About everybody at the party last night, It

1:11:39

is so much better. I have to say, I am thrilled to hear that.

1:11:42

I'm like, I'm sorry that you felt like you had to make that choice, I guess, you know, don't put anybody through a bad time, but it's a pretty cool club to belong to.

1:11:53

Honestly.

1:11:56

I mean, We

1:11:57

think we're cool That

1:11:59

Stephen King. Oh yeah. We've got Gandhi Gandhi.

1:12:08

Okay. Well, I mean, I got married car, right?

1:12:11

Like sh whereas just talking with somebody about Mary Carr, she's kind of awesome David car, not with us, but also awesome.

1:12:17

Kathy Valentine, Kathy Valentine.

1:12:19

I think it's a good club to be, to be a member of it has very high initiation fee.

1:12:24

You might say it's, it's, it's, it's, it's tough to get through the hazing of it.

1:12:32

The good news is like, once you're in, you know, you don't have to get haste anymore if you don't want to.

1:12:39

But this is great though, because they want to ask you both about the effect of sobriety on relationships and songwriting.

1:12:46

Cause I know for me, you know, I have, I have friends who told me, I didn't realize you were an alcoholic, right.

1:12:54

Or I, or I thought you drank a lot, but I didn't, you know, whatever.

1:12:56

But my point is they didn't see a huge change in me.

1:13:00

And I have friends who are like, you are a different person.

1:13:05

I'm the latter group on it.

1:13:08

Yeah. We, we spent some nights together.

1:13:10

In fact, there was one night after a white house correspondence dinner.

1:13:14

You're not supposed to send those stories. I'm

1:13:16

not going to tell the stories, but I'm just saying that I'm really proud of you.

1:13:19

And I think it's great. I really think it's great.

1:13:22

And I just, I hope you know, that you like, you saved your life and it's beautiful.

1:13:25

Oh, Oh God. I mean, yeah.

1:13:31

I know.

1:13:33

You know, you're great.

1:13:37

Thank you. I am. Yes.

1:13:40

Right. Answer.

1:13:42

So for you though, I mean, what is, what is there you're early days yet, but I wonder if there's some clarity for you about your relationships and about maybe your craft.

1:13:53

Yeah. It's funny when you sort of decide to go ahead and, you know, give it the heave ho he just stopped thinking about it.

1:14:01

It just said that's, that's one of the things I'd forgotten about the merely immediate, like feeling of calm that kind of comes back around like, oh yeah.

1:14:13

I'm not thinking about this anymore.

1:14:15

I'm just thinking about all the other stuff, you know, and I like giving all the other stuff, the 100% the thing you go to sleep thinking about, wake up thinking about, and all of that, I think, you know, already asked me years ago and he was sort of first getting sober and everything.

1:14:33

And he's kind of asked me about it.

1:14:37

And I was at, at that time, I was at a time where I, I was, so I was in a little silver period that I thought was going to last.

1:14:45

And

1:14:45

I

1:14:45

said,

1:14:45

well,

1:14:45

you

1:14:45

know,

1:14:45

I

1:14:45

said,

1:14:45

the,

1:14:45

everything

1:14:45

just

1:14:45

sorta

1:14:45

shapes

1:14:45

in

1:14:45

a

1:14:45

different

1:14:45

way

1:14:45

going

1:14:54

forward. It just you're, you, you don't, you don't think about it.

1:14:58

It's just not, it's not around anymore in your, your mind.

1:15:02

It doesn't, you know, I, I guess maybe in a way I was just saying like, like, yeah, you think about alcohol a lot when you're in, you know, sort of naturally sort of having that lifestyle and all that and everything shapes in a different way going forward, you know, things, things get accomplished that couldn't have been accomplished in the same way before focus happens.

1:15:27

And in places that weren't available to you, just because of how you sort of built everything and we're, we're living how we moving, you know, and yeah, I remember this conversation we had and that I've been thinking about that conversation recently.

1:15:45

And, and yeah, it's funny.

1:15:49

And it's just sort of sitting, sitting here around me now and, and I'm just, you know, doing what I always do when I, when I'm in that like truly sober state of mind that I'm just back to being task oriented, which is my favorite thing to do.

1:16:07

I love tasks. I love obsessing on my own projects and all that.

1:16:13

And they give me the great, you know, my bad, my family and friends give me the greatest joy in the world.

1:16:19

And yeah, and it's kind of back to that, but it's sorta newly back to that.

1:16:23

And so I'm just at, as I sit here, freshly reminded of all that and I'm back to it and I'm really happy.

1:16:34

I had an idea and it's a song Mary sings.

1:16:36

Is that, would that be okay?

1:16:37

No Only

1:16:41

Sets you up for that.

1:16:45

I think it's perfect if it's a song that Maria sings, because it does remind people, this is a band, So

1:16:51

there's a deep cut Murray song.

1:16:53

It's not a song that we ended up playing live, but it's one of my favorite of Marie's songs.

1:16:59

And I think, and I don't want to speak for you, Marie.

1:17:02

I think it's about a love relationship, but it feels very much about like, I've always kind of imagined that it could even almost be about me and you, it's a song called this beautiful thing and it's so, Okay.

1:17:15

Say why don't we ever say, we're sorry.

1:17:19

Oh, Jesus Christ.

1:17:28

I was going to go for a song that was a little more like hopeful and beautiful as like a Coda denouement.

1:17:35

The

1:17:35

song

1:17:35

is

1:17:39

At other one, but yeah, let's keep it.

1:17:40

Let's keep it on it.

1:17:42

Let's end on an up note.

1:17:44

You said this beautiful thing, This beautiful thing.

1:17:47

I just think it's really sweet, it's it?

1:17:49

And, and you're going to play it so the folks will hear it.

1:17:52

But I really love when he lands on the final verse and he says some old gear, we will renew the love we had here when we were just two.

1:18:01

Yeah. And that moment I'll say to my friend, wouldn't she do it all over again?

1:18:06

Yeah. That's a great, yeah, that's a, that's a good one to, you know, of eliminate that, that kind of thing with us.

1:18:15

Yeah. You know, I I'm quite sure I had a bit of a in there while I was writing that I was writing about gray and I was thinking about having a baby, which we hadn't gotten pregnant yet.

1:18:28

And yeah, yeah, no.

1:18:32

Right. You're, you're in my relationship off often visits in certain moments in songs because they're great.

1:18:38

It's a great news for certain, certain things.

1:18:42

It's a great news.

1:18:45

Yeah. I've no doubt that that was one of the little butterflies floating around my head when I was working on that.

1:18:54

Well, I love you, Marie. I Love

1:18:56

you too, man.

1:18:56

You

1:18:56

did

1:18:59

well. You did well with yourself.

1:19:00

And

1:19:00

I

1:19:00

was

1:19:03

right. I was a genius. I saw that 16 year old, like gone bam, boom.

1:19:08

He, him. Yeah.

1:19:09

And he's going to do a bunch of pretty great stuff.

1:19:14

And I can't think of a, literally a better note to end on.

1:19:17

Thank you both so much.

1:19:19

This has been just a joy to talk to you.

1:19:22

I think we've covered a lot of ground.

1:19:24

So I appreciate your patience in, in covering all that ground and your generosity for sharing your, your time with me.

1:19:35

Thank you. It's been lovely talking to you.

1:19:37

You're such a, you're such a beam of light and in such a sweet, complicated human being.

1:19:43

And we, I just think the world of you, thanks for having us And

1:19:47

I, and I love our chats on love our chests.

1:19:49

We don't they're there years apart, but always, I always enjoy chatting with you and good luck with the future stuff.

1:19:58

All the change that's happening.

1:20:01

We'll, we'll play out now to this beautiful thing.

1:20:08

Look at us day in the life of me and my friend.

1:20:13

Not smooth away, I would stay for Big.

1:20:52

Thanks to Rhett Miller and Marie Hammond who are touring right now with the old 90 sevens.

1:20:56

If you think they vibed well in this conversation, wait till you see them on stage and be sure to check out their music on your favorite streaming platforms.

1:21:05

The show is a production of crooked media.

1:21:08

Leslie Martin is our producer, Patrick and Tinetti is our audio editor.

1:21:12

If you've been listening this month, you know, this is the last episode of the show.

1:21:18

I haven't made a big deal about it because I refuse to think of this as the end of my relationship with you.

1:21:25

Dear listener, I am taking a page for Brett and Marie's recipe for a long lasting partnership and thinking of this as a chance to go do my own thing for awhile.

1:21:36

There are things I want to do that aren't possible in the boundaries of this podcast, but that doesn't mean I won't be back and I'll know more then, and it'll be even better.

1:21:46

Then I'll be better.

1:21:48

You'll be better then.

1:21:50

And until then take care of yourselves.

1:22:05

The stakes. Couldn't be higher. As we head into 2022.

1:22:07

That's why vote save America is working to raise $1.5 million through our no off years fund donations will go to voter registration efforts in places where reaching new voters will be critical states like Arizona, Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin.

1:22:21

These donations will also help organizers get a critical head, start on building relationships and expanding their work to reach every last voter unless you're living in a state of fucking denial, but help us get there by heading to vote, save america.com/donate.

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1:57

Hi. I'm Audrey Cox, and welcome to with

2:00

97s like these. This week, I am talking to

2:02

two people who are, as they say,

2:04

friendship goals. A relationship

2:06

they've maintained, despite or perhaps

2:09

because they've been in the same band

2:11

for over thirty years. Rhett

2:14

Miller and Murray Hammond are the old

2:16

ninety 97s. An alt rock slash

2:18

alt country band that

2:20

survived about twenty different musical trends

2:23

and is still going strong. Their latest

2:25

album, twelfth, was released last

2:27

year. 97s we bring our music month

2:29

and this podcast to a close,

2:32

I wanted to end with a conversation with

2:35

friends exactly like these.

2:40

Rhett and Murray welcome to the show. Hi,

2:43

Anna. It's

2:45

really happening. In that morning.

2:49

I'm super excited to have you all on.

2:51

This month has been music month, but in

2:53

a a little bit of I think we're approaching music

2:55

in a way that 97s little bit from the

2:57

side, which is talking about music

3:00

and relationships, but not necessarily the

3:02

relationships that are sung about. Right?

3:05

But how relationships on stage

3:07

between band members and backstage, you

3:09

know, the business of music. We talked to

3:11

someone who's like an up and coming musician

3:13

in Nashville. To talk about, like,

3:16

how that works. And

3:18

y'all are our long term relationship.

3:22

Experts. So where the where the

3:24

97s? Where where the where where the where where the sliver

3:27

97s? Okay. They sliver 97s, and you're also

3:29

you got listed two of my 97s. So

3:32

I I feel like maybe I should get some advice.

3:35

I am actually not entirely kidding about

3:37

getting advice. So

3:39

you've you've been in band together for many

3:44

how many? 20 some, twenties Oh,

3:46

written I've been in eight band

3:49

together quote unquote since the eight

3:52

It's just just how it 97s. The the

3:54

ninety 97s were just like the longest

3:56

and most recent chapter of all of it. But yeah, we, we really, you know, we were in a band in 1990 together and we worked together in 88, 89 and, and we just worked together nearly since the beginning of rec giving of RET doing his thing, yeah,

3:58

we we really you know, we we were in

4:01

a band in nineteen ninety together. And

4:03

we worked together in eighty eight and

4:05

eighty nine And and we

4:07

just worked together nearly since the beginning

4:09

-- Wow. -- of Red. Be beginning of

4:11

Red doing his thing. Red doing

4:13

his thing. Yeah. Well, do you have

4:15

acute meat story. How

4:18

do you know? We were both dating

4:20

girl's name, Jennifer's. So we had

4:22

we had we had Jennifer's.

4:25

97s our 97s were friends with

4:27

each other. And my Jennifer said

4:29

to his Jennifer, hey, I think you'd like my new

4:31

boyfriend. And his Jennifer said, well, he

4:33

should meet Murray and brought me over to Murray's

4:35

house, and Murray set up a little recorder.

4:37

And I was fifteen. Right? And you recorded

4:39

my first 97s. Actually, It was a, you were rehearsing with your Kingston trio folk trio in the maid's quarters of your mom's it was

4:42

you were rehearsing with your Kingston

4:45

Trio folk Trio in the maid's

4:47

quarters of your mom's house. Oh, that's that's

4:49

right. But by that's alright. Yeah. That's that's

4:51

a weird sixteen year old. That's

4:54

a weird thing to call it, by the way. It was a crazy

4:56

day. There's so many stories. 97s, in

4:59

that just in that sentence.

5:01

There's a lot of stories. It was a garage apartment behind a humble little house that my mom lived in and we did not have a maid, but there was a little tiny gross one-room garage apartment with was a garage

5:03

apartment behind a humble little house

5:05

that my mom lived in, and we did

5:07

not have a maid. But there was

5:09

a little tiny gross one room garage apartment

5:12

with cockroaches, and that's where

5:14

the musicians got you

5:16

know It it was the teenage basement,

5:19

but attached to the garage 97s what

5:21

it was. It was the

5:23

the dumb the dumb teenage

5:25

dream. Maid's

5:28

97s quarter. Maiden's quarter. Well,

5:30

no. 97s it.

5:32

We did call it the always call it the 97s. Oh my God. I'd forgotten forgotten

5:35

that. We called it the that we called it the quarters. The quarters.

5:37

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Jesus.

5:40

And you probably played quarters in it.

5:43

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was your den of

5:45

97s your den of iniquity. So

5:48

Oh my god. Over this past month, because

5:50

of the I've been going through. I've been thinking a lot about relationships

5:52

in terms of relationships

5:55

that last, friendships that last, and how

5:57

they are and aren't, like, romantic

5:59

relationships. Some people might think that's a

6:01

facile, you know, comparison

6:03

97s to sort of obvious that photonic

6:05

relationships are are more durable. But

6:07

I do think there's a falling in love moment for

6:10

friendships. Yeah. It may

6:12

be less obvious, but do

6:14

y'all have a falling in love moment a time

6:16

when you're like, oh, this is gonna be -- Oh, yeah. -- this

6:18

is gonna be different. Yeah. Well,

6:22

I I think so. I mean, III

6:24

can speak for myself. I fell in love

6:26

with him as his spirit

6:28

and as a musician.

6:31

Nearly from that moment. It it

6:33

was really, for me, we went

6:35

down to see the room 97s together. I'll

6:39

do it. I mean, that's It was

6:41

within it was within a

6:43

few weeks of us meeting and

6:45

they had even been within couple of weeks. It

6:47

was me. I said, hey. We're you know,

6:49

I I can't remember who got the tickets. Maybe

6:51

and know, in those days, and

6:54

then Rose Rose might not have even

6:56

sold out. It was It was eighty six. And

6:58

the Longhorn ballroom were the sex 97s.

7:01

Play had just started having shows

7:03

again. And yeah. Anyway,

7:05

but I got him in the van, and and

7:08

he was just this little fresh

7:10

faced little child with big red cheeks

7:13

and a leather jacket and, you

7:15

know, and I

7:17

I simultaneously admired him and

7:19

felt sorry for him 97s he was

7:21

so fragile looking.

7:24

I just thought like he must have got

7:26

kicked on a lot at school because

7:28

he was cool and nobody

7:31

likes cool. Nobody likes different.

7:33

Nobody likes 97s cheeks. And

7:36

yeah. And I was just like, you know what? I

7:38

really like him. And, and we had a great time last night or that night, you know, you remember And and

7:41

we had a great time last night. We

7:43

were that night, you know. You remember when we

7:45

hung up with Chicken George and Yeah.

7:48

It was Was that the same for you, Brett?

7:50

Was that the same for you, Brett?

7:53

Yeah. Well, you know, our relationship early

7:55

on was very mentor. Like Murray

7:58

was older and he was wiser

8:00

and he was the singer of a band. I really loved the payoti Cowboys and I'd seen them play at the theater gallery and they were really

8:02

loved the peyote cowboys 97s I'd

8:04

seen them play at the theater gallery

8:07

and they were great. And he was so

8:09

great. And it was this three piece. He played a

8:11

twelve string electric guitar and

8:14

and And then so going to see the 97s whom

8:16

I loved, but it's one thing to, like,

8:18

love the Ramones and know about the Ramones,

8:20

but to, like, be in the LongHorn ballroom with

8:22

this really cool, like, actually successful

8:26

rock and roller that's, you know,

8:28

five years, seven years older than me or whatever.

8:30

And and it was It was

8:32

mind blowing. I 97s I I felt like I had

8:35

been accepted into a club that I'd always

8:37

wanted to be in, and Murray was my

8:39

my my den mother slash, you

8:42

know, whatever fraternity brother

8:44

or whatever. Some we were somehow family

8:47

from that day on. Mhmm. Rhett

8:49

just had to do some serious massaging on

8:52

the term success and

8:54

successful there. So I appreciate that

8:56

red. No.

8:59

He was true. We we his first two

9:02

gigs were with my band. And

9:05

and yeah. I I the first time I saw

9:07

him, I said, hey, are you? This is great.

9:09

I adore what you're doing

9:12

Are you you wanna come open for

9:15

us? And Red said, no. No. I'm not ready. That's

9:17

like, yes, you are. We're playing in two weeks.

9:19

You're you're opening for a bam. Yeah. And that was, was it red cross or the Pandora's And that

9:21

was was it Red Cross or

9:23

the pandoras? Red Cross. You

9:25

had me play in between you guys

9:27

and Red Cross. Like I did

9:30

a little mini set. Oh, you did? Okay.

9:32

Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember 97s at the beginning. I was

9:34

like, oh my god. Yeah. That was a that was a great night

9:36

too. So when like,

9:38

April eight April eighty seven?

9:42

April eighty six? No. This would

9:44

have been eighty six. Fall of six.

9:46

So we we played it was the

9:48

second time we played with Red Cross and oh,

9:50

no. That was the first time. It was Yeah.

9:53

First time was November. It was it was November.

9:55

IIII do remember that October third

9:58

was the day I

10:01

went over to see you play.

10:03

I still remember that for some reason.

10:05

So it may have even been by the by

10:07

by the end of October, eighty

10:10

six. You know? Nineteen eighty six. 97s.

10:13

Tell me. Sixteen year old boy and you had you'd only been

10:15

sixteen for a month. I

10:20

have to say, Rhett still could pass for sixteen,

10:22

I think. He's

10:25

still a fresh faced apple cheeky young boy.

10:27

So the the music part of this,

10:30

the the musical attraction.

10:32

Let's stay. What was that?

10:35

You said you loved what what Brett was doing, Yeah.

10:38

What was it? What was it that called you? Oh,

10:41

well, he he songwriting

10:44

he was riding, like, in my mind, like

10:47

like, classically simple

10:50

songs. He was songwriting writing

10:52

classic songs. They they were,

10:54

you know, first course, first course, middle

10:56

break. 97s of course, how? You know, they

10:58

were they were like, I wanna

11:00

hold your hand and, you

11:02

know, and the 97s, and they were they

11:04

were like sixty songwriting. in

11:06

the eighties, there was just a lot of

11:09

large s with song. Right? And, you know, there

11:11

was a lot of more grand you

11:13

know, everything was the alarm and you too

11:15

and in excess and all that and

11:19

and and rep well, he was like

11:21

a huge Bowie guy and all that.

11:24

But at the beginning, he was

11:26

very much riding inside this sort of earlier

11:29

fault tradition that were a pre

11:31

British invasion, folk tradition

11:34

with the, you know, lamplighters and

11:37

Kingston Trio and Peter Paul and Mary

11:39

and that kind of thing. Pete Sieger and

11:41

all that, and he and he wrote like that and did.

11:44

And so yeah. And

11:46

so I was like, oh, 97s.

11:50

You know? And I was really happy to

11:52

see that. Nobody I knew songwriting that. I was

11:54

trying to like that. And

11:57

so and and also saw that, like,

11:59

oh, we could probably actually be in

12:01

a band together. What about

12:03

you, Brett? W well, Marie was such a rockstar in those

12:07

Well, Murray was such a rock star in those

12:10

days. Like, the the way he moved

12:12

around a staging hair down to, like, the middle

12:14

of his bag his shoulder blade linked hair,

12:16

and it was always, like, naughty and 97s. And

12:19

and and, of course, he taught me to he

12:21

and his roommates taught me to smoke weed.

12:24

You know, they told me what to be scared of about

12:26

acid. You know, if you're on

12:28

it, if you're too high, to the that

12:31

cure is to take another hit. That's what

12:33

they used to tell me. I'm like, just I

12:35

appreciate this 97s a bad influence, and

12:37

I liked it. But,

12:40

yeah, there was I just felt like I felt like

12:42

I had so much to learn about all the

12:44

things. Like, obviously, there's 97s. There's the

12:46

you know, the the just setting

12:49

up on a stage. How do you deal with the headliner?

12:51

And then there was just the how

12:53

do you function in a scene

12:55

where all the bands are different and

12:57

and you, you know, like me,

13:00

was a teen funky and I was like like Murray

13:02

said opening for Red Cross and later I'm opening

13:04

for 97s of the new church. And

13:06

like in there, I am playing, you know, don't

13:09

sit little folk songs. So but

13:11

if you are cool, which which

13:14

Murray was, and I was when I was watching and

13:16

learning and taking notes, you can

13:18

fit in so Murray's psychedelic band

13:20

97s able to open for, like, pretty heavy punk

13:22

rock 97s. And, you know, it's

13:25

it's all about it's not about your music

13:27

sounding the same. It's about having like this,

13:30

you know, playing nice. Be cool. Be

13:32

be one of the you know, the

13:34

the friends at the table and it was

13:36

it was sweet. It was a great lesson in

13:39

and joining joining up

13:41

and and it's that's what music is. It's

13:43

just like collaboration, not just

13:45

musically, but just day after day,

13:48

you know, getting into a van and making

13:50

an environment with group of human beings

13:52

and making it 97s. And Murray

13:54

taught me that. So I'm

13:56

really interested in in sort of the musical

14:00

gib jiving part

14:02

of this, especially since it's true, you

14:04

were both playing music that wasn't quite

14:07

in the same scene as

14:10

it 97s quite a part of the scene that you were in.

14:12

And I also wasn't necessarily obviously

14:15

related to each other. Right?

14:17

So what was the chemistry

14:20

of putting all

14:22

together? Like, what

14:25

what changed for both of you musically

14:28

when you rock the two great tastes that taste

14:30

great together? The eighties in Dallas, like you would not think that the things would all mix, but it was just, there was only like two clubs, you know, there's theater gallery and profit bar eighties in Dallas,

14:32

like, you would not think that the things would

14:34

all mix, but it was just there was only,

14:36

like, two clubs. You know, there's

14:38

theater gallery and profit bar, basically. And

14:41

so it had to be end over end

14:43

and three on the hill and peyote cowboys and

14:45

flaming lips would come through and the butthole surfers

14:48

come through. And then you'd have a touring act from the West

14:50

Coast like Red Cross come through. And

14:52

and and then you'd have, like All the weirdos

14:54

had to stick together basically. Right?

14:57

Yeah. So you or you'd have, like, a folkie like

14:59

me, or you'd have, like, Leroy Shakespeare and

15:01

the ship 97s playing Reg game music. And then,

15:03

eventually, you had eighty and the New Bohemians

15:05

when they were just the New Bohemians, and

15:07

they were playing like that barefoot hippie kind of

15:10

music. And and so, like, you

15:12

nowadays, I feel

15:14

like nobody could imagine, like, oh, wait,

15:16

what are these bands all doing together? That's crazy.

15:19

But, you know, we were just doing music and

15:21

we only had, like, a couple of clubs to do it.

15:23

And their Russell Hobbs, the guy that ran

15:25

the 97s put on a savior. We

15:27

all called it was a savior life

15:30

festival. But it was the the

15:32

list was so crazy because it was just

15:34

the most schizophrenic band list you've

15:36

ever seen, but it nobody thought

15:38

twice about it. So it wasn't as weird,

15:41

maybe now as it sounds. I also think that

15:44

rep and I we were a

15:46

little bit on the couch. I mean, rep

15:48

Brett had a funny experience that he

15:50

could tell you about a lot better, but he was a real

15:53

critics darling there

15:56

for a time And but

15:59

then there was a moment where we were all

16:01

kind of on the l's with

16:03

the same And and

16:05

we and think it kinda glued Redneck

16:08

together in some way. We believed in

16:10

each other when

16:13

maybe the rest of the scene didn't believe in

16:16

our brand of things so much. And

16:18

this is about, I would say, this is about

16:20

nineteen ninety ninety

16:22

one, that kind of thing. And and, Rhett and I were

16:25

a little adrift for a

16:27

while, sort of, create

16:29

creatively. We we had our

16:32

loyalties to each other and we had

16:35

we we believed in what

16:38

each other was doing. And

16:40

and the rest of the scene, it was really dominated

16:42

by very artsy jam

16:45

based music. Everything was very

16:48

kind of, you know, sort of funky and

16:50

and jazzy new 97s.

16:52

They came they came out of that that scene.

16:55

It it didn't produce big punk rock

16:57

bands where we were at.

16:59

It was it was all very artsy. And

17:01

we were still hugging to that

17:03

kind of sixties, 97s,

17:06

pan fifties kind of Yeah.

17:09

A lot of power pop And, you

17:11

know, on things like that really 97s, you know,

17:14

like like in 97s and and things

17:16

like that. And, yeah, and and

17:18

that that was a glue for us. And,

17:21

yeah, it's really not bad to

17:23

be the outsider in scene.

17:25

It really does it really does quite nice

17:27

things. But, yeah, but

17:29

but relationship 97s,

17:33

you know, we we had a

17:35

community around us But

17:38

the community that really understood

17:40

what we were doing was rep

17:43

and me. And community

17:45

of two. Community of two.

17:47

And and probably more than that, but

17:49

in for me, it was it was

17:52

red. Yeah. Yeah.

17:54

It was funny because right around that time, it did

17:56

start to harden. And I think part of it

17:59

was the new bows exploded Like,

18:01

the the I remember,

18:04

Island 97s did the sounds of

18:06

Deep Ella. The Buckpets got signed.

18:08

Like, there was all this there 97s all this

18:10

success all of a sudden. And then there was more

18:12

than two clubs. Now there was, like, five

18:15

or six 97s. There was bands every

18:17

night. And then

18:19

that was when we

18:22

felt this really strongly in

18:24

around ninety two when

18:26

ninety three, when the

18:28

grudge explosion happened, and all of

18:30

a sudden the labels really did start getting

18:32

applied. And they would look at us, whoa,

18:35

what are you? And I'm like, I don't know. I'm

18:37

wearing Converse with duct tape on them. I'm playing a shitty electric I'm playing

18:39

a shitty electric guitar. So I

18:41

guess we're grudge. And

18:43

then we we stood up on

18:45

a we stood up on a stage long enough,

18:48

you know, trying to wearing this ill fitting

18:50

suit. And that this is to say, like, maybe

18:52

three gigs where we were, like, so

18:54

do we fit into this scene? And then we were,

18:56

like, oh, I remember the night. Marie and

18:58

I lived together in Marquita 97s and

19:00

SNL had Nirvana

19:03

on. And we looked at each other and we're like,

19:05

that was incredible. We can't

19:07

do this anymore. 97s we're not that. We're

19:09

not even close to that. Yeah. I think

19:11

I remember like that, Murray. Yeah.

19:13

Yeah. I you know, the the when

19:16

you and I basically started

19:18

this band. It was when

19:20

I you had gone to work or something. I was

19:22

at home and I just

19:25

stayed up the night before listening to

19:27

the Everly 97s and Hank Williams and

19:29

and and

19:32

living with the singer of, like, one

19:34

of the Primo, quote, Grunge 97s

19:36

in Dallas, which was Fondland,

19:39

they were called Fondland and and Peter,

19:41

the singer 97s was my roommate.

19:44

And I was just like, it just hit me. I

19:46

was like, this is ridiculous. Rhett

19:48

and I are just we we are wondered

19:51

so far from home, you know,

19:53

from where we had kinda, like, when we

19:55

were really true believers

19:58

of our own thing. And

20:00

we were I think we're just so happy to

20:02

get 97s. And just

20:04

kind of be able to be loud and

20:07

the sort of surface fun of all

20:09

that. But there there was nothing

20:11

deeper than that, and it was so And

20:14

it was a it was a real moment.

20:16

He had he had played he

20:19

was feeling the blues too. And

20:21

we were down there in a little coffee shop

20:23

called the 97s.

20:25

And he had played me this little song. He

20:27

wrote his little country song 97s

20:30

he was already writing writing

20:32

that direction anyway. And

20:34

and it was called Saint Ignatius. And

20:37

and later, it would open up the first

20:39

o ninety seven record that we

20:41

recorded but I couldn't get

20:44

the song out of my head. But more than

20:46

that, I couldn't get the spirit of it. It

20:48

it had absolutely went

20:51

back to the the days when we

20:53

really believed in ourselves 97s.

20:58

In the face of all in

21:01

the face of everybody telling us that,

21:03

like, no. No. No. No. You need to kinda go bigger

21:05

than this. And and it was such a mustard

21:08

seed. And I was like, and

21:10

then saw I called red up or I wrote him on

21:12

over. So said, I I went

21:14

to Guitar Center today. I

21:16

got rid of my electric base. I

21:19

bought an acoustic base. Here's

21:21

what we're gonna do. You and I

21:23

are gonna, like, break up this crunch band,

21:26

quote, unquote. And let's

21:29

just go back to what we used to do. Let's

21:31

just not give a flip about

21:33

record deals or trying

21:35

to play at the big clubs the

21:38

big clubs meaning, like, club

21:41

clear view. These clubs that were, like, three hundred

21:43

capacity 97s. Huge. You

21:45

know? And and let's go back

21:47

to, like, how we were and we didn't care

21:50

about that stuff. And and let's just play

21:52

coffee 97s. Let's just go back, you

21:54

know. 97s it. That's

21:56

the portal forward, you know. So

21:59

I was going to say like, all right, I was going to ask you, if you could point at a song where you, you knew that you clicked, that you were like, this is, this is what we're going to I was gonna say, like alright.

22:01

I was gonna ask you if you could point

22:04

at a song where you you knew that you

22:06

clicked. But you were like, this is

22:08

this is what we're gonna do. Is that

22:10

the Was that the song for

22:12

you? Well, Murray produced a record I made in high Murray produced

22:15

a record I made in high

22:17

school. And there 97s some moments on

22:19

that 97s Murray at the time was

22:22

making an

22:24

album that you released on cassette only,

22:26

I think, called the watering wheel Yeah.

22:28

And his album, the wateryling wheel, was

22:30

very much like a Sid Barrett.

22:33

I don't I mean, Murray, I don't mean to remember. Oh, yeah. What

22:35

do you mean? yeah. I was yeah. Sid Barrett was

22:37

a a massive earth

22:39

shaking thing. So yeah. So I I did this

22:42

cassette. So it was like a lot of

22:44

twelve string guitar and a lot of, like, this

22:46

really beautiful 97s it

22:48

psychedelic 97s is misleading

22:50

a little bit, but it was this really beautiful stuff.

22:53

And then Murray came in and did produced

22:56

my solar record when I was like seventeen

22:58

years old. And and

23:00

a lot of what we did was the real

23:02

kind of full key. We had the the

23:05

drummer from the New 97s come in and do like

23:07

you know, whatever hand drums and it

23:09

was very that kind

23:12

of vibe. But there were some moments where

23:14

Murray would play electric guitar that

23:16

would get kind of like this a waterline

23:18

wheel sound. And we we would do things

23:21

where all of a sudden it felt like we were making

23:24

music together. Like, he was producing

23:26

me, but we were also, like, really collaborating

23:28

and it was feeling like we felt like

23:30

a band, like the beginning of a band.

23:32

And so then we did he convinced

23:35

me to drop out of Sarah Lawrence, give up my

23:37

full scholarship, which now that I have an eighteen year

23:39

old who's waiting hear back from colleges, just

23:41

need a stomach turn to even think

23:43

about that.

23:48

So So yeah. So we we

23:50

came back to Allison and started our

23:53

band sleepy 97s, which was like a power

23:55

pop three piece band,

23:57

and that was so fun. But that was

24:00

that was so that was me

24:02

and Murray staying up every night till three or four

24:04

in the morning. You know, eating Reese's

24:06

and smoking pot and drinking strawberry

24:09

milk and and songwriting these

24:11

power pop 97s. And and that

24:13

was so collaborative. In

24:15

fact, right right now, Murry and III

24:18

had this idea for the next old ninety seven record. I really wanted to, and it actually goes well with the theme of your podcast right now, I really wanted to fly out to LA and just be with Marie and write

24:20

97s. really wanted to and actually

24:22

goes well with the theme of of your podcast

24:24

right now. I really wanted to fly out

24:26

to LA and just be with Murray

24:28

and write songs like we used to, just

24:30

sit in the room and go, hey, what about what

24:32

if we did this and just try to sit

24:35

down and write a song? Because now mostly it's he'll

24:37

say, I've got this piece and he'll send me a recording

24:39

of it. Or I'll bring in a complete song

24:41

or, you know, it's it's very rarely

24:44

strawberry milk in the solitude of night,

24:46

as I said, in seventeen magazine at night

24:48

eighty nine or whatever. Mhmm. But that's

24:50

what I'd like to do again 97s that's that's

24:53

an incredible feeling to just sit down

24:55

with your friend and where there was nothing suddenly

24:57

there is something beautiful. But

25:00

if we had to play something --

25:02

Yeah. -- for people to hear what

25:04

you might think of as that first spark, What

25:08

can we play out to an ad right now?

25:10

So, sean ignatius, I think, would be as

25:12

good as any, because we're we had

25:14

done all of these things that hinted at

25:16

what we could do together, and

25:18

and they were all interesting, certainly,

25:20

and useful, but none of them was successful

25:23

by which I mean, none of them really

25:25

succeeded as its own piece of art

25:27

maybe. And until

25:30

St. Ignatius and Saint Ignatius kind of has it all because it's Marie and I, with our weird, you know, folk slash psychedelic slash Carter family song structure, it's, it's me singing about Play-Doh and a country song, you know, and we'd finally found the, you know, the foils to our Everly brothers duo and Ken and Phillip, and I think yeah, of, of all of our songs that the, the, the opening track on the first old 90 sevens albums and San Ignatius kinda

25:32

has it all 97s it's Murry

25:35

and I with our weird, you

25:37

know, folk slash psychedelic Carter

25:39

family song

25:41

structure. It's it's

25:43

me singing about Plato in country

25:46

song. You know, and we've finally

25:48

found the, you know, the 97s to our

25:51

Murry Brothers duo in Ken

25:53

and Philip. And I think, yeah, of

25:55

of all of our songs that The the the opening

25:58

track on the first old ninety seven's album,

26:01

Saint 97s. It was probably best

26:03

representative of the the moment 97s

26:10

Outside standing next, she is

26:13

outside of the vault.

26:16

You are about so great. Hold

26:19

on. I just stand in.

26:24

You're a god. So what's the contributing

26:26

community? We

26:31

could go swimming and

26:33

are scattered on that

26:35

way downtown. I'd

26:38

like to say no on her.

26:41

Just by drinking it

26:43

tonight. I

26:45

can't find the words to

26:48

make it right. To make

26:50

it right. I

26:55

can't find the words to

26:57

make it arrive. To make

26:59

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on. My

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wonder, is

31:44

this a good time?

31:47

So, Brett,

31:53

you thought that song would make a good bookend.

31:56

To San Ignatius. I mean, to me, yeah, that song is such a time saving may

31:58

mean, to me, yeah, that song

32:00

is such a time travel. San Ignatius,

32:02

I wrote in a A

32:04

large closet under the stairs that

32:07

led to the apartment above mine in

32:09

Marquita Court. I

32:11

was living with Ivy at time. We it just

32:13

started we Murray and I had just sort of

32:15

come up with the idea to do whatever

32:17

this thing or 97s he explained. Like, it this

32:19

was the very earliest days of of

32:22

Old 97s. So when I was

32:24

riding the dropouts, I was traveling

32:27

in my mind back to that same apartment complex

32:30

And, you know, it's that's, you know, everybody's

32:32

flying in a harmony rocket. That's the kind of

32:34

guitar that Ken Ken, but

32:36

they moved in across the hall for Murry.

32:39

And would leave his door open and you could see he had

32:41

this cool hollow body like rocket billy

32:43

guitar, this harmony rocket. And

32:45

it was a cheap guitar, but it was so

32:47

cool again. And then we heard him playing

32:49

accordion and we're like, maybe that guy

32:51

could be in our band with us. But,

32:55

yeah, that's to me, that's that

32:57

song 97s so funny. We're the dropouts.

32:59

Like, we all had dropped

33:01

out of school to to some

33:03

degree. We had all were we were all

33:06

attending the school of hard knocks,

33:08

and we were getting this education working

33:10

at restaurants or at answering services.

33:13

Doing these horrible 97s. And the

33:15

only light at

33:17

the end of the tunnel was this

33:19

possibility that our bands could be

33:22

more than just free drinks, you

33:24

know. And but I do think

33:26

we believed that even in the darkest 97s, I

33:28

I thought we knew that we were we

33:30

had value beyond just

33:32

being sad guys that could

33:34

talk about the 97s we had once

33:36

had and had now given up. Where is he romanticizing that at

33:39

97s he romanticizing that at all?

33:41

Oh. In that way, as soon as he as

33:43

soon as he said, the dropout 97s, like, oh,

33:46

wait minute. Yeah. The dropout, we dropped

33:48

out in our 97s. And

33:50

here we are. Yeah. Yeah. That's the dropout he's

33:52

talking about. Yeah. Yeah. The

33:55

the the the one that last year and time life.

33:57

And happily, we found this music world

33:59

in our twenties, so we could, like, take

34:02

a take several

34:04

bytes out of it, you know, ten

34:07

year bites. So

34:10

yeah. I mean, he's romanticizing it, and he

34:12

should he should romanticize it because that's

34:14

At the end of the day, that's how I experienced it.

34:17

It was really interesting talking to Kathy Valentine

34:20

about her experience with the 97s you

34:23

know, they made it big immediately,

34:26

basically. Right? Like, they didn't have

34:28

a super long time of being the struggling

34:30

band you know, playing for

34:32

tips and whatnot. But you

34:36

what you were saying reminded me of what she said 97s

34:39

she 97s that romanticize it? It's

34:41

just she'd miss, like, that was the best time of life.

34:43

I mean, just objectively. Like,

34:46

why would she romanticize it? Right? Mhmm.

34:51

So what's the best time of your life right now

34:53

writing songs? The fact that you wrote a song about

34:56

when you got together I mean,

34:59

that's nostalgia. But what's the best part

35:01

of being together now? Man,

35:07

I I have a hard time with nostalgia, and

35:09

I feel like whenever I do

35:11

the thing where I you

35:13

know, comparison is the death of joy and

35:15

I look at someone's life and I think, why

35:17

do they get to have a hundred

35:19

and fifty thousand dollar guarantee? Why do they get

35:21

headline Carnegie Hall? Whatever the thing you

35:23

can think when you when you begrudge

35:26

someone else their success. Which what a shitty

35:28

thing to do anyway? But

35:32

You know, I've been I feel like I've been pretty good about

35:34

not going too far down that rabbit hole.

35:36

The one of things I come back to is

35:39

the idea that I have lots of friends

35:41

who had a hit. Maybe it was

35:43

in the nineties. And it's

35:46

it calcifies you during

35:48

a moment in time and then

35:50

the rest of your life. It's funny for

35:53

for Kathy. You know, talking to her about

35:55

the go 97s, it was five years

35:57

of her life. And it's been over

35:59

for -- Well, 97s. --

36:02

they sell things. They do every unions. I

36:04

97s, I know. Right. go

36:06

go. 97s a go go. When

36:08

she talks about the greatest time of her life though, it's

36:10

not, like, the eighty eight reunion. Right.

36:13

Right. Right. I did see that, and it was great

36:15

tour. Red

36:17

Cross opened. Thanks. Yeah. Red Cross. I said I

36:19

was there. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. But

36:21

there 97s a war between Red Cross and the audience

36:23

at night. You remember that? Yes.

36:26

But the band was at war with the audience.

36:29

They nearly just got 97s thrown

36:31

at them by the end. I

36:35

just sort of wanna find out more about that.

36:37

Rock and Ro. Rock and Ro.

36:39

We'll move on to that. I think you were making a good point, think you were making a good

36:41

point, Rhett, about having

36:43

how having a hit kills 97s. Yeah.

36:46

But but so I think this

36:48

weird career that we've I

36:51

would say we backed into it, But I do think

36:53

that's sort of selling ourselves short. Even

36:55

when we were wind and dying by fifteen record

36:57

labels offering us the moon, we

36:59

always said we don't care about

37:01

having hit. We want to have a long career.

37:03

We want a catalog that will never be embarrassed

37:06

of. So we didn't do what a lot

37:08

of bands did, where you go find the flavor of

37:10

the moment, and you go go make a song that's

37:12

like, you know, one of those the nineties,

37:14

those insipid songs that were like,

37:17

So actually and 97s, like,

37:19

some, like, overproduced thing and it

37:21

gets played on one tree hill

37:23

or 97s Creek. And you make

37:25

a million dollars within the rest of your

37:27

life. Like, remember me? I was in that band in

37:29

the nineties that had that song. Swiny. Or

37:32

whatever. And it's just an embarrassing

37:34

moment that you can

37:36

maybe live off of the rest of your life.

37:38

The good thing is for us that we've never had that.

37:41

So I feel like each record

37:43

we make is our best record. And each step of our career is the most fun step of our And each

37:45

step of our career is the most fun

37:47

step of our career. Like, we we have all

37:49

this stuff coming up next year, some

37:52

of which 97s of nondisclosure agreements,

37:54

I'm not allowed to discuss, but I

37:56

promise you that when I get to announce it,

37:58

you'll go like, oh, that's what he was talking about.

38:00

We have this amazing stuff coming

38:03

up that's so fun. Are you

38:05

going are you going to space? Is that it, now They get to most unexpected thing that people do these days and it's randomly going to Is that

38:07

it? No. Understood. God

38:09

is closure. The

38:12

biggest thing biggest unexpected thing

38:14

that people do these days, and it's randomly going

38:16

to space, I think. That's the Yeah. So, but the good thing for us is there, there were dark times, certainly when the record label imploded and that coincided with me starting to make solo records and the band had to figure out if they, if the band could survive me, making solo records and for a minute it looked and go like there were dark times, but w you know, it's like there are every, every year of our band has had glorious

38:19

but the good thing for us 97s,

38:21

there there were dark time. Certainly, when

38:23

the record label imploded and that coincided

38:26

with me starting to make solo records and

38:28

the band had to figure out if they if the

38:30

band could survive me making solo

38:32

records and and for a minute it looked

38:34

touch and go, like, there were dark times

38:37

But, you

38:40

know, it's like there are

38:43

Murry every year of our band has had glorious

38:45

moments. And and I don't I

38:47

looked back sometimes on, like, ninety nine

38:49

and I think maybe that was the

38:52

peak because we sold our most

38:54

97s. The world was still our

38:56

oyster. Like there was still the possibility that we could go on to be one of those bands that had a giant hit, but I don't know, I didn't enjoy 99 as much as I enjoyed, you know, 2014 in some Like, there was still the possibility

38:59

that we could go on to be one of those bands that had

39:01

a giant hit. But I

39:04

don't know. I didn't enjoy ninety nine as

39:06

much as I enjoyed, you know, twenty

39:09

fourteen in some ways. So yeah.

39:12

You know, we we we always had the

39:14

most fun in this band when it just

39:16

seems like things

39:18

were moving forward. Whatever

39:21

it 97s, it's it's the addiction

39:23

to progress that has always

39:26

been so wonderful

39:29

in band. You know, that that's why, like,

39:31

my favorite moment in

39:34

the 97s is that period when

39:36

we've just finished an album, but it isn't

39:38

out yet. You go through this

39:40

little tunnel at its

39:42

various lengths of time. It's

39:45

at least a few months. Sometimes it's longer.

39:47

But it's just pure you

39:52

know, it's just pure possibility. You

39:54

just you just swam in

39:56

possibility or swaddled in And

39:59

it's just it's just so wonderful. And we're you

40:01

know, in in those old days quote

40:03

unquote, there was a lot of

40:05

that But that's just because it was

40:08

a lot of first. The first time we

40:11

got to be on a record label in

40:13

Chicago with much the first time we ever

40:15

got to do it. May two label thing or

40:17

first time we ever heard ourselves on the radio,

40:19

first this, first that. And

40:22

and, yeah, that's that's that's lovely.

40:24

That's that's our five years

40:26

of the 97s for

40:29

us. But happily, we

40:31

still get to do that 97s like Rhett

40:33

said, we didn't get calcified

40:37

early on with that

40:39

odd hit that, you know,

40:41

in in a pop culture way

40:45

pindus to the wall where we could

40:47

never unpin ourselves 97s we're

40:49

permanently in a

40:51

mirror of what

40:53

was happening at that time. And

40:56

yeah. And when people talk about nineties

40:59

bands quote unquote, I

41:01

don't have to be I have to remind

41:03

myself, oh, are we a ladies fan?

41:05

And somebody will say, oh, I

41:07

don't know. Kinda. You

41:09

know, we're not really an audience band. We're not

41:11

a two thousand band. We're just kind of this

41:14

long thing. Are the 97s, the

41:16

sixties band? No.

41:19

97s they're not 97s Hermits. You

41:21

know? So so not having hit.

41:23

That was the plan all along. that. Yeah, Yeah,

41:25

man. What needs Yeah. We figured that that was the, if in the unlikely case that we don't have one of those cuckoo hits, you know, that we would just read the plus column to ourselves and that's what it was the plus column was that, yeah, we're, we're to way more have like the butthole surfers kind of thing, you know, we're way more going to have like this sort of more cultish, you know, sort of audience and all

41:28

We figured that that was the if

41:32

in the likely case that we don't have

41:34

one of those Kukwu hits, you

41:36

know. That we

41:39

would just read the plus column to ourselves.

41:41

And that's what it was. The plus column was

41:44

that Yeah. We're we're

41:47

go way more have, like, the Beaulieu's 97s

41:49

say, you know, we're way more gonna have, like,

41:52

this sort of more cultish, you know,

41:54

sort of audience and all that. And it'll just

41:56

free us to do whatever we want

41:58

forever, you know. And we still do it.

42:01

And Yeah. And happily, you

42:03

know, our our sound

42:05

is very much a family sound. So

42:08

the next record is always sits

42:10

nicely next to the ones before. And

42:13

then over time, you get we get to have this

42:15

really lovely amazing 97s know,

42:18

discography that I'm really proud

42:20

of, you know. And Yeah.

42:22

And and and more than anything, I'm just I'm just

42:24

proud of, like, okay. It

42:27

has been a family smell this whole time.

42:29

The band members themselves are kind of

42:31

this family thing. It's been that way. The whole time family, family, family, everything's sort of had this thread that's been on way the

42:33

whole time. Family, family, family,

42:35

everything's sort of have this

42:37

thread that's been unbroken.

42:41

I see exactly what you're talking about

42:43

in terms of the longevity of the old ninety

42:45

97s. And then it's funny when you say

42:48

their family. First, I was like, do you mean you don't

42:50

curse in songs? But I I don't think

42:52

that's what you mean. Instead,

42:55

it's I I think what you mean, there

42:57

is like an intimacy when

42:59

you have a band that hasn't had a big hit.

43:01

Right? Like, when you're

43:04

a fan of a band that's that's, like, the old nine

43:06

sevens, like, every old nine seven show I've ever

43:08

been to, 97s

43:10

everyone is super fucking psyched

43:12

to be there. Right? Like,

43:14

there's no, like, 97s attitude

43:17

towards an old night old night sevens. You you're like,

43:19

trying to get the crowd worked up. It feels like to me.

43:21

Maybe maybe I of course, I've missed some

43:23

You're the ones that play every show. Well,

43:27

I think one thing that Murray

43:29

is referring to goes hand in hand with what you're saying,

43:32

that we're like a secret that people

43:34

get to share. And a lot

43:36

of times what's happened recently in the last ten

43:38

years or so, is that our fans have grown

43:40

up to the point where they then have families of their

43:42

own and they share it with their kids. So we'll

43:44

see parents and 97s. And now

43:46

those kids will have 97s. And it's

43:48

kind of insane, but we do wind

43:50

up having entire families come. And,

43:53

you know, we do, because if you stick around long enough,

43:55

you lose friends and you lose collaborators.

43:58

And, you know, we end up getting

44:00

a lot of stories of, you

44:02

know, friends or fans

44:04

whose dads have passed away and we

44:06

were their favorite band or, you

44:08

know, it's the the the mortality

44:12

that is on display with groups

44:14

of people with, you know,

44:17

who feel like a family like we do with our

44:19

97s. It's just it's

44:21

a it's a lot. It can be a lot,

44:23

you know. And And I, you know,

44:25

I I have a hard time not getting

44:28

really, you know, emotionally affected

44:30

by it. In fact, I don't keep myself from in fact, I don't keep myself

44:32

from it it. Cause I feel like it's good to just experience this stuff, but it is, it can be really heartbreaking to hear the stories of people whose lives you've touched and then maybe they've moved 97s I feel like it's good to just experience

44:34

this stuff, but it is it can be really heartbreaking

44:36

to hear the stories of people whose lives you've

44:38

touched, and then maybe they've

44:41

moved on and Yeah.

44:47

Yep. I

44:49

think that That's

44:51

really a wise point to make about

44:54

the fact that when you're together

44:56

for long enough to pass through different stages

44:58

of life, that some people do

45:00

even pass to the final stage of life.

45:02

Like, that does create

45:06

a kind of intimacy that no other friendship

45:08

that a friendship doesn't have until

45:12

it's it's gone through that. Right? Like Unfortunately,

45:16

sometimes that happens. Right? I mean, people die

45:18

young. And friendships can

45:21

can gain that patent loss

45:23

all too quickly. But I think I get what

45:25

you're saying. Like, Just

45:28

your Yeah. Well, it's funny because

45:30

when you start, it's about free

45:33

drinks. It's about, you know, appealing

45:35

to the app it sex or whatever shallow

45:38

thing. But as you go, there's

45:40

a moment there's there's these milestones. For

45:43

me, there was realizing that there

45:45

is a nobility to this thing that we're

45:47

doing. Like, there's We're we're making

45:49

something beautiful and giving it to the world.

45:52

And we we sacrifice security.

45:56

We sacrifice sort of time at

45:58

home with our kids. We

46:00

sacrifice, like, the kind of normal quiet life

46:03

that that sometimes you're really pined for.

46:07

So 97s that is is

46:09

empowering because it makes you feel like,

46:11

okay, because there's always the question, did I

46:13

waste my life? You know, there's there's these

46:15

fourking 97s. And you wonder

46:17

if I had gone down that path How much happier

46:19

would I be? But we're on this

46:21

path. And this path has inherent

46:24

value, and it's really beautiful. But then

46:26

as you get older, you know, we've had health scares in

46:28

our band, knock wood. I feel like everybody's

46:30

pretty good now. But, you know, Ken

46:32

was worried about his health recently. I mean,

46:35

at any given moment, we've all had

46:38

97s with mortality. And eventually

46:42

one of us will die. That's just how things are.

46:45

It'll be very unusual if no one did.

46:48

But I don't know if you have been raped. Okay.

46:50

So, like, when you think about a long marriage,

46:53

right? There's it's so

46:55

easy to come up with reasons why

46:57

you would get the hell out of this marriage.

47:00

This person's driving me crazy. Ditto

47:02

for a band. But what

47:05

are the what's the argument for staying in it?

47:07

Well, a shared history you

47:10

know, a long life together where

47:12

you can point to, you know, important

47:15

moments and milestones and meaningful, you

47:17

know, things

47:19

that you've made together, experience together.

47:22

Like, that's that's something you can't

47:25

start from scratch and come up with within

47:27

a year, like, it takes that's the

47:29

whole point. It takes twenty five, thirty

47:31

years. You know, I'm coming up on twenty

47:33

years of marriage right now, and it's that same

47:35

question of, to stay married

47:37

or not to stay married, you wake up every day

47:39

with option. Both of those things are

47:41

on the table. And and

47:43

if you choose the statement grade, you

47:46

you haven't thrown away

47:48

the opportunity for the shared experience.

47:51

In fact, there's a song on the newest old ninety

47:53

seven's album called the Old Belmont

47:55

Hotel. And when I wrote it,

47:57

I was using a hotel as a metaphor

48:00

for a long love relationship. And

48:03

it's our love is like the Old Belmont

48:05

Hotel. It was in ruins.

48:07

Now it's doing quite well. And it goes through

48:09

all these, you know, metaphorical things that were

48:11

bad and now they're good. And And

48:14

it gets to the bridge, which is always almost

48:17

always the bridge is like the let's

48:19

let's sum the song up for the listener. So

48:22

many times good buildings get torn down,

48:24

raised to the ground 97s work is

48:26

hard to do. And

48:30

that's the band. Then I remember when I

48:32

was writing it, I remember thinking, well, this

48:34

this is a it's kind of using a as

48:36

a hotel as a metaphor. Really what

48:38

I'm doing is I'm using a love relationship as

48:40

a metaphor for this other love relationship

48:43

that I've had with my three best friends for

48:45

thirty years almost.

48:48

I was going to ask about the rough was also asked about the rough stuff,

48:50

actually. And

48:52

I don't mean to saddle you with that question, but

48:55

Brett did just talk for a long time. So

48:59

97s is the secret to a happy marriage?

49:01

I mean, I think that you're right, just

49:03

the shared history in some ways

49:05

doesn't get enough

49:08

weight. Maybe if I can be an

49:10

old stir in this day at age,

49:13

you know, when everything is new all time,

49:15

think sometimes the

49:18

idea that just the simple

49:20

fact of a shared history can

49:23

be discounted a little bit.

49:26

But there must be other ways that

49:28

you get through the hard times. Right? Like,

49:30

Brett was just talking about the time that the

49:32

record label imploded, and he was doing a solo

49:34

album. Like, Murry, from your point of

49:36

view, what was the rough stuff you had to go

49:38

through and then survive? Well,

49:41

the the rough stuff You

49:44

you know what I bands

49:46

that last a long time, the the word

49:49

glue is I

49:51

I would probably say in the top. Two

49:53

or three words that you always hear. Their

49:55

their bands get glued together

49:58

through adversity. That

50:01

that shared history That

50:03

could be anything. It could be a lot of boredom

50:05

and and nothing happening, but

50:07

nothing happening to the same four people.

50:10

That wasn't really us.

50:12

So for us, there 97s a

50:15

a great deal of just you

50:17

know, sort of shared goals,

50:20

shared values and

50:23

and shared adversity. know,

50:26

It's funny how much glue

50:30

you can get out of

50:33

simply having the same memory of

50:35

sleeping in the van during a nice

50:37

storm and passing the

50:39

whiskey around and trying

50:42

to stay warm and turning

50:44

the engine on and then going to sleep

50:46

and then waking up in a fit because

50:49

you're gonna Freight you're gonna die carbon

50:51

monoxide. So you turn it off again,

50:53

and then you freeze to death, and then you

50:55

turn it back on And you just

50:57

and just just 97s kinda these

51:00

kinda gluing moments,

51:03

they they take on a

51:05

lot for people

51:08

like us. And so when we

51:10

hit moments of, you

51:12

know, where we're challenged, you know, when rep

51:14

was going solo.

51:16

It was the the first time

51:19

that we, you know, our our

51:22

unit was

51:24

we all of a sudden, we were missing one

51:26

of us. And and

51:29

and it was sad, and we didn't know what to do

51:31

with it. We were it. We were sad. And then we got

51:34

mad at rep for being the one missing. And

51:37

even though our ban 97s ending

51:40

or anything, but it scared us

51:43

97s we we had

51:45

built up a great deal of

51:49

we we we 97s we already knew

51:51

how much we valued our our friendship and

51:53

our band, but we were scared that

51:55

we wouldn't have that anymore. And

51:58

and that's scary. You know? That's scary in like

52:00

Rhett says, scary in a marriage. While

52:03

Rhett was simply proposing, was

52:05

an open relationship. I was gonna

52:08

say I have

52:10

a question. The open relationship I

52:12

think does not get get enough you

52:15

know, celebration. I think that that's

52:19

that's the part of marriage where the ban is

52:21

might be a little bit different than normal

52:23

marriage Open relationship is

52:26

where the open relationship is is

52:28

usually really quite successful in

52:30

a band. You know? I was gonna

52:32

ask about the because you yeah. Unfortunately,

52:35

you got me thinking the same exact way

52:37

with that metaphor. Right. But I wonder

52:39

if maybe it's

52:42

not an open relationship. It's

52:44

just having a life outside. Right?

52:46

Yeah. Like, it's not that you're having

52:48

relationship with someone else, although it also

52:51

could be in a different band, I think. But

52:53

the point is you're just

52:56

you you remain a single person. Yeah.

52:58

In addition to being a part of something. Yeah.

53:01

For me, it was Yeah. We're talking about talking

53:03

about you now. I

53:08

do think there's useful stuff in

53:11

here, in the, you know, transferable credit.

53:14

97s it work? Right. Like,

53:17

being in a band is great. It's a democracy.

53:20

Like, the sum is greater than the parts or

53:22

whatever that expression 97s. But,

53:24

you know, for me, like, I was

53:26

I was getting told no a lot, you

53:29

know, because I I had to submit to the greater

53:31

will of the band. And

53:34

so a lot of times that's what breaks band

53:37

up. Right? And I could see if

53:40

I kept having to just sorta eat it

53:42

and not get my way over

53:44

and over and over again, eventually I'd be like

53:47

screw you 97s, I'm gonna go do my

53:49

thing. But I thought there's

53:52

no reason I can't go and

53:54

get my yoy 97s out making this weird record

53:56

and then come back to the band, you know? So I guess how it would transfer is I think that you could just, if you have needs, why, why hide them and resent the other person for not meeting them when you could just go to the other person and say, I need to go make this weird record with John Bryan and then I'll come back and make records with you guys So

53:59

I guess, how it would transfer is I think

54:01

that you could just if

54:03

you have needs, why

54:05

why hide them and resent the other person

54:07

for not meeting them when you could just go

54:09

to the other person and say, I

54:11

need to go make this weird record with John

54:14

Brian. And then I'll come

54:16

back and make records with you guys too.

54:18

So, I mean, I just I spoke up for

54:20

myself. I did what I I encourage my

54:22

kids to do all the time. I self advocated,

54:25

and they were they were great. They were super

54:27

cool about it. I mean, it was it was rough, but

54:29

it wasn't, you know, a band killer.

54:31

And it took a lot of pressure off the ninety

54:34

97s, you know, for for Rett to

54:36

do go go solo the way he did.

54:38

That was what needed to happen to take,

54:40

you know, you you you don't want to

54:43

just make a ban, provide

54:45

every single thing. When when it's

54:48

not really built to do that. It's it's really

54:50

built to do some things

54:52

quite well. And yeah.

54:55

And and I'm in the same boat, you know.

54:57

I And I say you've recorded solo as well.

54:59

Yeah. I record solo. I record solo

55:01

now, you know. And,

55:04

yeah, and a band can only kinda contain

55:06

so much. Unless

55:08

you're the Beatles putting

55:10

out two albums a year, you know.

55:13

There's something like that, you know. You

55:16

know, theoretically, we

55:18

could do every single thing in the old ninety

55:20

sevens. But there'd be like four records

55:22

a year. It'd be crazy and they wouldn't all

55:24

be good, you know. They'd be all over the place,

55:26

you know. Which

55:29

you know, it'd be a reggae record, you know.

55:31

There'd be you know, it's

55:33

been too much. And so yeah.

55:37

It it's a it really it

55:39

really kinda did what

55:41

yeah. Rhett needed to do that. And

55:44

there's there's no good time to

55:47

do that. You just gotta do it when inspiration

55:50

strikes. And And that's

55:53

the time to do it. That's the good time to do

55:55

it. And that was when you

55:57

know, and and he was probably late doing

55:59

it. He probably needed to do that a year before.

56:03

When you go away for a while from

56:05

the band and then come back. Mhmm. What

56:07

effect does that have on the music? It's funny for me, because since 2001 I've been doing that, it's almost perfect alternation between solo record band

56:11

funny for me 97s since two thousand

56:13

and one, I've been doing that.

56:16

It almost, you know, perfect

56:18

alternation between solar record,

56:20

band record. And it's great because

56:22

you know, I get lonely up by myself.

56:24

And I'm like, god. I I missed those

56:26

guys. And then I'll go back in and we'll make a record.

56:29

Let's tour the record. And then I'm like, oh

56:31

my god. I need to get the hell away from

56:33

these guys and start the

56:35

cycle all over again. Right? Chasing

56:39

the dragon. Yeah.

56:43

Yeah. It's yeah.

56:45

It it it's nice. That nobody nobody

56:48

really gets truly sick

56:51

of each other. We just we we

56:53

we get together. We we go through

56:55

a whole experience of

56:57

we get a full belly. We

56:59

get a full belly. And that's

57:02

usually about the time something different

57:04

happens anyway. We take time off of this

57:06

this or that and do

57:08

our other projects. And,

57:11

yeah, it's it's been it's been a nice

57:13

rhythm. I I don't think we've

57:15

ever hit

57:17

where just like, oh my god, there's just been

57:19

too much ninety seven. So let's do something else

57:21

for a little bit. It's always been kind of

57:23

just enough and it just sort of it just

57:26

naturally, it's kinda worked and stuff. That fell.

57:29

So let's play out to rollerskate skinny, and then we'll come back from So let's play out to

57:31

the roller skate skating. Then

57:33

we'll come back from 97s to the clinic. Blue

57:43

skates can't hear the temperatures.

57:46

How can you have everything and nothing

57:48

else? Thank you a nobody

57:51

see. I oh, you're gonna

57:53

wake up when the coast gets out

57:55

of the sky. On

57:58

the wall of the church. So

58:00

I'm getting upset in you on the top

58:02

stuff part. You gotta break

58:04

down on me. Night day

58:07

gonna curse this town. With

58:15

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