0:00

this podcast may contain content

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that is graphic and disturbing and nature listener

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discretion is advised when a man

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identifying himself as a called a

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restaurant to inform the manager, their employees

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now, a suspect in a theft how

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far would everyone go to comply with

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this authority figure?

0:25

this is louise ogborn story

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amy i'm pretty excited that were soon gonna have

0:52

a proper and dedicated recording

0:54

studio again yes congratulations

0:57

on the new house thank you so much you should

0:59

see the rumor will be recording it's fabulous

1:02

it's a can't wait a letter opener in

1:04

the apartment but it was small and we had a use it

1:06

as also against her and so we've had tears and studio

1:08

down put it back up at now we have a dedicated

1:11

studio and you you're building a dedicated see

1:13

a to i am i can't say ones will be

1:15

ready but new years going to be a little longer

1:17

than mine so sorry you guys are going to come

1:19

sense and times over yeah i'm i can't wait

1:21

seriously to have you guys over to spend weekends

1:23

recording having they were over yes

1:26

anyway i am really so

1:28

all about today's case i got really

1:30

into this one know i say that a lot but

1:33

it's true i watch a movie about this case

1:35

recently and that's how i got the idea and

1:37

though i knew the basic gist of the story

1:40

i had no idea about the details and let me tell

1:42

you the devil is in the details hold

1:44

tight on this one amy the we

1:46

are born in eighteen year old girl was just

1:48

months away from finishing her senior year of

1:50

high school in the area of mount washington

1:53

kentucky

1:54

she was described as an average high schooler

1:57

a churchgoer a former girl scout as

1:59

well

1:59

working part time at local mcdonald's and

2:02

had been taken on extra recently

2:04

for $6.35 an

2:06

hour to help her family because her

2:08

mother had just her job lewis

2:11

have never been in trouble

2:11

at school or with the loss

2:13

she was, he not considered a good kid it

2:16

would appear that, this would suddenly change though

2:18

on april 9th, 2004, when

2:20

louise arrive for an extra shift at

2:22

mcdonald's when she was scheduled to work the

2:25

register, i say that because you this the a register,

2:27

there's a line there's the kitchen like the whole different

2:29

area the events that after

2:31

louise arrived for her shift, began

2:34

with one phone call phone

2:36

call was placed to the mcdonald's, where

2:38

louise was on the call

2:40

was answered by the manager of the restaurant,

2:42

the woman named donna, jean summers,

2:44

the caller identified himself as

2:46

officers stopped and inform

2:49

donna that he had a victim with him at the police

2:51

station who was claiming that an employee from

2:54

mcdonald's had stolen money

2:56

her purse earlier while she was eating at that

2:58

point the detective proceeded

3:01

to provide donna summer's them answer

3:03

with the description of the suspects a

3:05

young woman that's physically seem

3:08

to match a description

3:09

the louise onboard

3:11

and on a told him this much

3:13

after donna identified police officer

3:15

scott directed her to bring luis

3:17

into her office so they could get to the bottom

3:19

of the situation gonna complied

3:21

telling louise to come in informing her of the allegations

3:24

against her while on the phone with detective scott

3:27

the we adamantly denied ever

3:29

stealing from this woman or anyone else

3:32

pleading with her boss not to fire her and

3:34

just to believe that she would never do this you

3:36

know thing that i was busy when would i have even

3:38

done the as now you know or how would i even

3:41

though there's a back sign the register but

3:43

officer scott claiming he was coordinating

3:46

with donna's boss at mcdonalds corporate

3:48

slowly talked on it into detaining

3:51

louise in her office locking the door

3:53

he essentially explain there was

3:55

an easy way or a hard with do this the easy

3:57

way would be if dot could simply

3:59

certainly

3:59

the

4:00

for the missing money and resolve this issue

4:02

you know quickly or the hard way would be for

4:04

him to come and arrest louise bring

4:07

her to jail and efficiently

4:08

torture and then search her at the station

4:10

the deposition awkward later said i was

4:12

bawling my eyes out and literally begging them

4:15

to take me to the police station because i didn't do

4:17

anything wrong little

4:19

bit of conflicting information here

4:21

because onboard did initially comply

4:23

and she did one dude the station but then she changed

4:26

her mind so odd to see you

4:28

know there's kind of two sides to this and

4:30

and non i tell things a little bit different than later

4:33

after donald louise her options are reluctant

4:35

louise agree to turn out her pockets and

4:37

allow her manager

4:38

search her purse

4:39

pick her cell phone thinking that this would surely

4:42

put the issue to rest

4:44

he was certainly wrong on that one

4:45

because officers scott didn't think

4:47

the lack of evidence was indicative of anything

4:49

for she obviously could be hiding money

4:52

anywhere else the he'd been instructed

4:54

donna to have louise remove all of her

4:56

clothes and donna would

4:58

check those clothes the men

5:00

bag them for forensic testing

5:03

he's not really an officer as he was

5:05

will save the funds lives for this for this have you ever heard

5:07

of an officer instructing know any want

5:09

to have them now they're close now at

5:12

this point assistant manager kim dockery

5:14

was in the room at on his request because she

5:16

felt it would be we're pretty valuable to be

5:18

president and park cooks you the corporate would probably

5:20

want their someone harper probably didn't

5:22

want you strip searching you are you know your employer

5:25

yes according to dockery

5:27

louise was sobbing the i'm she was so

5:29

upset and scared piece by

5:31

piece of very upset luis turned over

5:33

her clothing to donna summer's including

5:36

her bra and underwear that's absurd

5:38

at his yet she was standing there are literally

5:41

naked she the only thing that they had in the office

5:43

that the assistant manager gave her was thirty

5:46

eight britain barely covered herself in the

5:48

storage room and i'm going to suggest everyone

5:50

take a look at us because you can see this

5:52

on mine they showed a lot they had surveillance

5:55

of this and they showed a lot and they have

5:57

louise you can see her it's a small april

5:59

well go to you barely covering her chest

6:02

for like transposed across

6:04

bottom is you know op is open

6:06

meanest terrible and i mean this wasn't

6:08

even though the worst that was going to happen though

6:11

donna would shake or items she

6:13

would take a mountain and place them in a bag

6:16

and then to the bag way they'll do you see another

6:18

problem with this much as assume that this

6:20

is true he would have her touching the items

6:22

and then have a how would the friends are testing though

6:24

none of this makes any sense and what

6:26

type of forensic testing and in fingerprints

6:29

things and was allegedly they're

6:31

looking for money the money's not sound that

6:33

i mean it doesn't make any sense it doesn't make any

6:35

sense to me either but okay so

6:38

release was left in the office

6:40

meanwhile the restaurant was extremely busy

6:42

with a friday night that ahead

6:44

and earlier problem that day and she was very

6:46

nervous that some from corporate was gonna send

6:48

like someone in for quality control though

6:51

she told officers cutlass i i have to

6:53

get back to the for i can't to be here this whole

6:55

time and he said okay but

6:58

he couldn't send anyone to the store yet

7:00

to check on the situation the

7:02

donna would have to have someone watch

7:04

louise until he could dispense

7:06

an officer to the scene so dot s another

7:08

employee twenty seven year old jason

7:11

broadly to watch least one male us

7:13

yeah us more she went back on the floor

7:15

when jason got into the room he became immediately

7:18

concerns and he was horrified to see his friend

7:20

and coworker louise and just an apron he

7:22

had also been handed the phone so he could follow

7:25

officer scots instructions that

7:27

asa scott wanted to say on the phone during

7:29

this conversation officer scott explain that losers

7:31

probably hiding the money under that apron said

7:33

jason will have to take the apron away from her

7:36

work and no kidding you

7:38

didn't know this right at this is most bizarre

7:40

thing of or it's gonna get a lot more bizarre

7:42

and a lot scarier well that was it for jason

7:44

he refused he left the room salaries managers

7:47

something is very wrong here but he

7:49

didn't call the police or do anything else okay

7:51

but at least he he does not have implicit

7:53

he new things and things knew this was off and things

7:55

are about to get are lot worse when

7:58

officers got as donna to have

7:59

someone else stay with the lease she

8:02

explained that she couldn't spare any staff

8:04

it was too busy chasing wouldn't do it she the given

8:06

you need had other assistant manager out there

8:08

so the color officer scott

8:10

asked if she had someone that she could trust outside

8:12

of her employees like a husband yes

8:15

and she said well i have a fiance

8:18

reportedly like laughing and a friendly way when she

8:20

mentioned and and so officer scott

8:22

made a request that i would think have set

8:24

off the the most serious alarm bells asking

8:26

donna if she could have her fiance com

8:28

watch louise until he could dispense and officers

8:30

to the scene megan you've outdone yourself

8:33

and you're not even de i'm not even done that a

8:35

this really is like the most bizarre

8:37

situation this one thing i knew about i had

8:40

heard about the mcdonalds hoax but i never

8:42

heard of also say it in a way it's like hope cari

8:44

a man i

8:47

had heard about these cases but i also said

8:49

they is said almost were mention the

8:51

more light hearted way last minimize what

8:53

really happened him and him think it's quite serious when serious get

8:55

through it and you'll see like move here this move here

8:57

very damaging situation so donna

8:59

summer's complies calling her fiance

9:01

walter next junior explaining the situation

9:04

and adding that officers thought also

9:06

the respected a girl of dealing drugs

9:09

and they were allegedly already at her house

9:12

executing a search word mom and so

9:14

you know they were too busy they were at our houses as part

9:16

of a larger investigation now and

9:19

so walter next agree to com

9:21

help thinking he was doing the right thing

9:23

and you know it was for his fiance

9:25

and

9:25

police officer

9:27

authentic was a father

9:29

of two and reportedly a community

9:32

in a great community guy i think you as an exterminator

9:35

and he attended church regularly there's

9:37

no alarm bells him when next arrive you

9:40

would handed the phone and things for luis cut

9:42

substantially worse because officer

9:44

scott would order him to remove leases

9:46

apron even if he had to it by force

9:49

and complied next pulled her

9:51

apron off of her the sounds like

9:53

the stanley milgram experiment are

9:55

we going to talk about that

9:56

your arm and i don't know where we were gonna

9:58

test yeah we're going to get

9:59

that

10:00

naked and terrified luis wanted

10:03

to run out but she also felt trapped

10:05

she was to them want to run to the restaurant

10:08

naked full of people and she's with

10:10

as like random older men s with

10:12

a win and she's she's literally naked everything

10:14

is exposed she had nowhere

10:16

to go her car keys had been taken so what

10:19

what was she supposed to do i mean these

10:21

isolated she's trapped she's scared she's

10:23

a kid to she's only eighteen years old she's a

10:25

kid like just her senior year of high

10:27

school won't

10:29

lose was naked officers got instructed

10:31

next to have her do jumping jacks

10:33

and knee bends insinuating that she was

10:35

hiding money inside of her and then

10:37

it would fall

10:38

out from

10:39

jumping work and i wrote

10:42

after that and yes amy before you comment

10:44

this really happened and so you can

10:46

see own video her doing jumping jacks

10:49

jogging doing , them spending

10:51

over on how humiliating

10:54

oh my god she's crying and he's he's hysterical

10:56

officer scott also had her sit

10:59

on walter next lap and

11:01

kiss him my case yeah

11:03

so often bottled water next she needs

11:05

to sit on your lap and kiss you because you can see

11:07

if she has anything on her breath oh

11:10

come on that you're joking right i'm

11:12

not joking i'm and series i'm

11:14

really not joking the notices so

11:17

hard to blame he did it and

11:19

then things escalated to physical violence when

11:21

officers fought ordered a complaint walter

11:23

next to them always over his lap and

11:25

spank her buttocks heart oh come

11:28

on again this was to teach her respect

11:30

and to punish her for disobeying and not

11:32

addressing knicks as sir saying

11:35

that he has he asked to scuttle decks you have

11:37

to establish your authority the

11:39

surveillance tapes amy which captured

11:41

every bit of this terrifying crime you

11:44

can see next hitting louise hard

11:46

for almost ten minutes

11:49

leaving welts all over so we're

11:51

obviously we're gonna talk about all of

11:53

their stride because i need to know like

11:55

a yeah okay i won't even now i just need you to get

11:57

to the ends with a nice enough i know i know i

11:59

knew

11:59

you're going to be mind blown on this one from are

12:02

you a the and at i

12:04

want them to tail this is abuse

12:06

would not over yet because in one final

12:09

two moralizing and torture

12:11

is criminal act water next

12:13

ordered louise

12:15

the perform oral sex on him

12:17

happy instruction of officer scott

12:20

or else he would have to hit her again

12:22

and so the way either know this whole time

12:25

the summer's had periodically been checking

12:27

in on the to and see knew

12:29

something was wrong when her fiance told her

12:32

that he had to go inexplicably but

12:34

a c later on the surveillance it look like summers

12:36

had walked in at least once on her

12:38

fiance emily's when the we did not have an apron

12:41

the to be that she says everytime i came in the office

12:44

they were sitting on opposite sides walter was just watching

12:46

her she had an apron on that the you

12:49

can see the surveillance tape there is one time or she comes

12:51

in what unclear from the tape

12:53

is whether or not she saw louise he threw the aprons

12:55

louise and she put it on but summers

12:57

had come in quickly i don't know if she didn't see

12:59

her in the back or she just doesn't want to believe that that

13:02

habits and sister with him now

13:04

that i will explain how that and evolved

13:06

flavor on okay and they get this becomes

13:09

a point of contention later on i

13:11

know you're shaking your head i it's it's just

13:14

it's unbelievable aren't we will return

13:16

to that oh and walter sorry of limit limit

13:18

to say walter had called someone and

13:21

reportedly he said something like i just did a

13:23

really bad thing i just made a really big mistake

13:25

something to the fact like he knew what he did was

13:27

very wrong right after this happened

13:29

he looked basically fled the restaurant while now

13:32

okay so but for now donna summer's

13:35

or was told by officers thought that he had

13:37

he had yet to find someone else to watch leaves because

13:39

they still couldn't i'm there you

13:41

don't have to question like when are you coming here what

13:43

what's going on sunday he says yeah

13:45

we're we're you know we're just low

13:47

one on

13:48

that patrol wouldn't low on officers know everyone's

13:51

busy and no one's thinking this might be

13:53

like well here we go okay luis asks

13:55

at this point thomas sims a fifty

13:57

eight year old handyman and the great drop

14:00

who perform maintenance on the store it

14:03

was they're getting deserted the time to help her

14:05

out and watch luis yep says uncle

14:07

walter had left and walker i'd left and she

14:09

had no idea was there realize he just

14:12

sexually yeah south on that a woman yelled at

14:14

a time malt i guess is no ah yes

14:16

the child's and when thomas thought into

14:18

the room he was startled by the sight of louise

14:20

naked covered by an apron smiling

14:23

donna assured him that corporate had okay that

14:25

though then officers got on

14:28

the phone instructed him to take away leases

14:30

ape and again so that he didn't view her naked

14:33

what sims refused good leaving

14:35

the room he went to donna and he said something

14:37

is very wrong with these requests and

14:40

he was the first one that really made her book

14:43

like really made her see what

14:45

was going on a think and realizing that you

14:47

might be right she decided to do what

14:49

you know she should have done in the first place or

14:51

one of the think she should have done and call her supervisor

14:54

lisa citizens to ask her what

14:56

she should do because remember lisa her supervisor

14:59

with allegedly i'm on the phone with

15:01

officer scott at some point in had a period of all

15:03

downhill

15:04

though

15:05

that's two daughters shock and horror

15:07

her boss had no idea what she was

15:09

talking about in said that she had not spoken

15:11

with any detective about a theft in the store

15:14

it will then the color hung up officer's

15:16

got hung up it was at that point to that

15:18

a hysterical donna summer's finally

15:21

called the real police who arrived on scene very

15:24

quickly because by the way they're police station

15:26

was a quarter of a mile from the mcdonalds

15:28

when they arrived the investigation into

15:31

who did this and who was guilty of what

15:33

we began

15:42

well i know i mean we got

15:44

to a point where several people were involved

15:47

who is this color is so many questions

15:49

here the mount washington police detectives

15:51

had a good lead to begin with first of all the

15:53

entire incident in the office i told you was captured

15:56

on newegg dot on security cameras which

15:58

is great

15:59

not great that the scandal think that great the they

16:02

had pictures of it and also because that twenty

16:04

seven year old employee in another

16:06

the one who refuse to that the to watch louise

16:09

he had the wherewithal to press star

16:11

sixty nine after the color on the dotted

16:14

, iowa i totally forgot

16:16

that exists as guinea tell the young folks was

16:18

at his yeah that was when we didn't have

16:20

cell phones move or when we didn't

16:22

have caller id are you weren't identified

16:25

every way you would call secretly time call someone

16:27

if you wanted to but you could call someone

16:29

n and the same the site but you could call them back

16:31

set the summer of helpline so is it that

16:34

are sick nine it would tell you the last number

16:36

the cold you write a as are six seven

16:38

is how you made your number private before you oh

16:40

that's remember that a cluster six others

16:42

have a for you whatever friend someone is so is this

16:44

or six seven i'm probably a

16:47

probably wasn't as much of a prankster as you are a had

16:49

a feeling but erm okay so

16:51

they had the phone number the waves learned

16:53

that the call came from a grocery store payphone

16:57

in panama city florida was

17:00

a payphone and grocery store

17:02

that it was placed using a calling card

17:04

the correct of called the panama city pd and

17:07

ask them to help locate the color and

17:09

it turned out they were already working on a similar case

17:11

for massachusetts but

17:13

with the guy knew her lewis's name

17:16

right now he didn't notice that

17:18

gave a general description of the young

17:20

girl oh my female

17:22

about you know in it you the demographics

17:25

of mcdonalds you know yeah took

17:27

a shot well if we think he took a shot isn't

17:29

that way okay so they were able to determine

17:31

that the card the calling card was purchased from a specific

17:34

walmart and the phone the time

17:36

indeed so what do you think they did

17:38

next amy look at surveillance from walmart

17:41

air we go and the surveillance

17:43

showed surveillance white male purchasing the card

17:46

and as luck would have it he was wearing was uniform

17:49

that had that logo on the

17:50

the logo

17:51

corrections corporation

17:53

america is

17:55

a local private

17:56

isn't it when the police said the surveillance

17:59

to the warden prison he identified

18:01

the person who bought the card thirty

18:04

eight year old david stewart a correctional

18:06

officer in this prison blouse i

18:08

mean what a sick fuck can i keep

18:10

just blowing your moment unfortunately

18:13

the card in the mess she says case was bought at a different

18:15

store with no cashier surveillance a they weren't

18:17

able to connect him to those crimes nonetheless

18:20

stewart was arrested and extradited

18:23

to kentucky where kentucky where stand trial

18:25

for impersonating an officer and solicitation

18:28

of sodomy he faced fifteen

18:30

years as conduct of any to know about donna

18:33

walter ever get my okay okay

18:35

of us ever seen you this instant know you're you're

18:37

interested in my case is that i feel like you're

18:40

on the editor stranger than fiction i

18:42

couldn't make this up i couldn't make

18:44

this up and almost reminds me of with the evil

18:47

genius on with like the bomb in like

18:49

it's like oh yeah on my list

18:51

i forget margaret is it was really margaret

18:54

and are now but i remember watching that knows like

18:56

this is really happened yeah and

18:58

then every time like something else happened

19:00

i'm like no fucking in this is one of those

19:02

cases i know at every point i

19:04

was waiting cause i knew the places where you're going to look

19:06

at me and shake your head and say no or i don't believe

19:08

that there was exactly

19:09

we everywhere current so

19:12

let's start with stewart

19:13

at trial the evidence really came down

19:15

here in he them plead guilty sir dinner

19:18

he went for trial the only evidence i

19:20

haven't the calling card and he's a pretty much like note

19:22

that wasn't an asset so his attorney argued

19:24

two things first of all that the calling card wasn't

19:26

hit season and even if it was that

19:29

it me he used to perpetrate those

19:31

friends so what does that mean meaning

19:33

about the carpet someone else new use the card to do

19:35

the crimes he could last the card it was stolen

19:38

any number of thing yeah protect

19:40

us also found another calling card in his

19:42

home that was used to call a burger king in

19:45

idaho in which the caller told a

19:47

similar story to the manager requesting the manager

19:49

strip search the employee who was alleged

19:51

to have committed this crime amisom he didn't

19:53

go that far though yes but you

19:55

know what you mean there were almost sixty

19:58

of these calls in total and have been

20:00

going on since nineteen ninety

20:02

five said any them go as far

20:04

as a sexual aware of the value

20:06

there are they were often made to fast food franchises

20:09

in rural communities were the targets might be more

20:11

trusting because of the similarities

20:13

of each case investigators believe that they would this

20:15

is like the v the work of

20:17

the same person so give you some examples

20:20

according to the

20:21

your journal

20:22

in two thousand a female mcdonald's

20:24

manager and leech field kentucky took off

20:27

her own clothes in the presence of

20:29

a customer the color convinced her

20:31

that the customer was a suspected sex

20:33

offender and by the manager

20:35

serving as bait the color convinced her

20:37

that it would enable undercover police officers

20:40

to burst in an arrest him in

20:42

two thousand two thousand calls me to a mcdonalds in georgia

20:45

a female manager believe she was talking to police officer

20:47

and she took a female employee to the bathroom and

20:50

did a strip search any body

20:52

cavity

20:52

there is to search for hidden drugs

20:55

okay

20:56

in fact by the time this hoax occurred at

20:58

least seventeen mcdonalds had been conned

21:00

and the company was defending itself in at least

21:03

for lawsuits from these hoaxes

21:05

there were other teens targeted to wasn't just mcdonalds

21:07

in two thousand and three and applebee's assistant manager

21:10

subjected a waitress to a ninety

21:12

minute strip search in two

21:14

thousand two thousand a fourteen year old female

21:16

customer at a taco bell was strip search

21:18

enforced to commit lewd acts yeah

21:21

father sexual acts in two thousand

21:23

and four sixteen your that sonic was persuaded

21:25

strip search and perform oral sex

21:28

on a twenty one year old male cook

21:30

have you heard of any of these know none do

21:32

you think mcdonalds just has good publicity or what

21:34

know how they keep things quiet oh i'm

21:37

because it doesn't look good for the brand know it

21:39

doesn't look good for them at all and they were they

21:41

were in the hot seat i'd heard about it

21:43

but not at this level so maybe they do

21:45

that pr people so

21:47

looking into david stewart to see no

21:49

off investigators had also found

21:51

in his when they searched his apartment that he

21:53

had many applications to police departments

21:56

we magazines guns and uniforms they found

21:59

in his home it was odd that he was someone who

22:01

very much wanted to be a police officer and

22:03

i have to say i would have thought that testimony would

22:06

have sealed the deal but

22:08

the jury disagreed and stewart was acquitted

22:11

but he was to charges that he was acquitted

22:13

of both not convicted of any crime

22:16

as it because they couldn't tie the calling card

22:18

prosecutors and defense i mean i've been speculated

22:20

he added that it was only that was that was

22:22

the only piece of evidence there was you know a

22:24

total lack of direct evidence which i understand

22:27

i did they are going on a reasonable doubt

22:29

in my now arm and not to my surprise

22:31

or maybe to yours amy but the call stop

22:34

completely after stewart's arrest and

22:36

trial and never resumes but as

22:38

a me at ass what about the other players here

22:41

that didn't happen the next alternext i

22:43

would imagine he was charged with sexual

22:45

assault yeah he was arrested for his part

22:47

and he pled guilty to sexual abuse

22:50

and , imprisonment for which he was sentenced

22:52

to five years in prison and what about

22:54

on a summer's donna summer's

22:56

ruby the surveillance tapes at night and immediately

22:59

up her engagement f there she thought her fiance

23:02

okay but what she considered like an assessor

23:04

your anything yes so she was

23:06

also arrested for unlawful imprisonment

23:09

i'm but donna took an alford plea for

23:12

those of you who don't know a and know we've mentioned

23:14

it before but now for please i'm an alford plea

23:16

is when you're pleading guilty

23:19

but not accepting responsibility correct yeah

23:21

pretty much saying i didn't i didn't do anything but

23:23

there's enough evidence that a jury would possibly

23:25

find me guilty so let's just make this easy exactly

23:28

right so that's what's on a summer's that her

23:30

deal allowed her the server kermit probation

23:32

she was fired from it's

23:33

the old but the story wasn't quite over

23:35

because both centers and louise

23:37

born would go onto sue mcdonalds

23:39

for not protecting them are making them aware

23:42

of these types of hoaxes which want

23:44

the responsibility of corporate headquarters

23:46

and if i interesting that down into that

23:48

too i do as well i'm

23:50

sure she didn't feel good about what happened

23:53

he did not know a you know like i she

23:55

was just very vulnerable but exactly

23:57

and she says as much an interview they were

23:59

interviewed by john can

23:59

if i know that both are born and

24:02

donna summer's and think a soul video

24:04

but i did get many parts of it

24:06

and see definitely said like i knew i was

24:08

had and i felt awful but

24:11

they will face she doesn't think that she the perpetrator

24:14

because the questions were like but how could you have thought

24:16

this is okay she that i just believed he was

24:18

we thought no doing what i was directed the

24:20

i think her only she's only guilty

24:22

of being gullible and vulnerable yeah

24:25

what she didn't actually physically

24:27

do anything fr she does obviously

24:29

she's making the girl strip but she didn't physically

24:32

like a stripper now we have to ask

24:34

yourself at what point a bit and else is what a reasonable

24:36

person would think it's ,

24:38

to strip search or employ he and leave

24:40

males alone a lovely girl a

24:43

it's a bigger question that we're going to have again more ignorant

24:45

than anything miss and you know

24:47

it's probably appropriate her pleading guilty or crime

24:50

getting probation you know it's a punishment but you

24:52

know i'm demonize npr for something

24:54

that wasn't really that didn't originate with her

24:57

yeah no the civil jury would see the surveillance

25:00

the sheer horror of what lease had third

25:02

the hands of people she knew and they saw

25:04

during the summers rolling it you know they were able to watch everything

25:06

clearly at , end the jury found mcdonalds

25:09

failed to protect louise and awarded her

25:11

five million dollars in punitive damages

25:13

and one point one million dollars in compensatory

25:16

damages also punitive against

25:18

compensatory against think people probably know

25:21

but punitive means this punitive means punishment was

25:23

i was for the punishment part and compensation

25:25

is compensatory like your payments of gas type of

25:27

thing and this was on the grounds that mcdonalds

25:30

should have told them that hoaxes we're going around

25:32

yes because actually and they were able

25:34

to show that the co corporate did know someone

25:36

just failed to notify them like they were supposed

25:38

to they did have an obligation to make their employees

25:40

aware a we're going on and then maybe

25:42

donna what if exactly like a red

25:45

flag it would have completely been

25:47

surprisingly or maybe not surprisingly donna summer's

25:50

was also [unk]

25:50

awarded one million dollars and

25:51

it damages and one hundred thousand in

25:54

compensatory damages from so that's

25:56

the end of the story for now

25:58

i'm not sure mr stewart won't

25:59

the charged in further crimes or that another

26:02

suspect will be charged at mean i think

26:04

it was david stewart to be quite honest and

26:06

i do think that that was so many of these cases

26:08

that it's still possible that they're working i

26:11

don't think anyone was happy that he was acquitted using

26:13

his deterred from doing it any longer

26:15

or he'll just trying to methods i wonder how

26:17

can have an escalator something else i'd

26:19

say do wonder i think it was probably does

26:21

hurt for him but we couldn't say for sure

26:24

what we can say that the calls of stuff so

26:26

maybe you judge others deterrent to turn

26:28

it to turn the actual perpetrator of he's also

26:31

one who did it that's i'm saying is leonard

26:33

similar it deterred someone so that's

26:35

the end of the story but now we have to explain

26:37

why this happens there are

26:40

two parts to this amy though so

26:42

what we wanna look at is why did the color perpetrate

26:44

these crimes in crimes first place and why did all

26:46

the people involved

26:48

or not all that several members

26:50

why and i think you know where i'm going

26:52

with this where my that

26:54

was you tuck email stanley milgram

26:57

experiment obedience

26:59

corrects okay so we'll start their so

27:01

yell psychologist stanley milgram in the nineteen

27:03

sixties one of the seager out why

27:05

so many germans had followed orders during

27:07

the holocaust even when they were so clearly

27:10

seen as though he set up a guys

27:12

have a study of the relationship between

27:14

punishment and learning this is prior

27:17

to what we now have i our views

27:19

which are institutional review boards which

27:21

provide protection for human subjects amira

27:23

experiments like these at problems s

27:26

yeah it's sorry this is it out and of the i

27:28

are both get him into nairobi later but i'm glad you said

27:30

the know know that it's certainly we

27:33

have to go through quite a process now when

27:35

we want to study human behavior thanks family

27:37

unit for all of i'd out thanks out thanks

27:39

of even though hours or a pretty ethical

27:41

thing now i know ah okay participants

27:44

in this experiment were greeted by a man with a white

27:46

coat and clipboard he told them that they would be

27:48

quote teachers in the scenario and introduce

27:50

them to quote students the would

27:52

be located another room the teacher

27:54

would then ask students questions the an intercom

27:57

the need be responsible for men

27:59

during

27:59

electric shock to the student when the

28:02

student answer to question incorrectly

28:05

and increasing the voltage with

28:07

every incorrect answer they couldn't

28:09

see the students reactions but they could hear

28:11

them like the out in pain

28:13

when they were shocked now we know

28:16

that the voltage wasn't real the

28:18

device issued sock that were just a prop

28:20

and this experiment and the students who are actors

28:22

in the fake study the people who are

28:24

acting as the administrators the teachers they

28:26

didn't know they believe

28:28

this was real

28:29

so what was really shocking was that this study

28:31

showed that two thirds of

28:34

the people who participated were willing

28:36

to deliver jolts that would have been strong enough

28:38

to paralyze and or

28:40

cause worst damage to the subjects simply

28:43

on the authority of someone in a lab

28:45

coat who instructed them to do so even

28:47

amid the cries and protest of the

28:49

students amy the moral of the story

28:51

is that seeming we ordinary people

28:53

to extort eerie things when directed

28:56

to do so by an authority figure

28:58

and the stanford prison experiment is another

29:00

example that that's correct in that

29:02

one was conducted by philip zimbardo

29:05

in nineteen seventy one on

29:07

this only this only one n this one it's

29:09

in the movie no i haven't i haven't

29:12

either i think wish after that they i definitely wanted to watch

29:14

it so what happened in this one

29:16

and might be even worse yeah zimbardo

29:18

recruited students to act as either prisoner

29:20

regard

29:21

then he placed them in like a simulated

29:24

in jail or prison setting and

29:26

he quickly found that the guards became cruel and

29:28

abuses in just a day or two the

29:31

prisoners suffered tremendous physical

29:34

and psychological effects so much so

29:36

that zimbardo had a shut down the experiment after

29:38

just six days this

29:40

one was really the i r be

29:42

in of the head of inspire became after this

29:44

one because yeah there was

29:46

an extreme damage to participants

29:49

but it also told us of lot

29:51

about the human condition so the take

29:53

away here placed in

29:55

an authoritative position ordinary

29:58

people acted in abusive these

30:00

when they had too much power

30:02

and sell interesting which might also

30:04

help us now explained stewards behavior

30:06

a measly has that's you know the last

30:09

person that we want to look at why did

30:11

he do this though i can tell you that

30:13

i couldn't find like a lot about his

30:15

background but here's what i do know and what has concluded

30:17

sewer was a married father of five my

30:20

who lived with his family and a mobile home

30:22

just outside of panama city five

30:24

kids in a mobile yeah yeah that's

30:27

what i read he was a correctional officer

30:29

who we know where for that private prison but then

30:31

when the police searched his home they found all those applications

30:34

and he really had aspired to

30:36

become a police officer but he seemingly

30:38

had that made it and beyond

30:40

that again that again know much more about his background but i think

30:43

that he is correct some opposition gave

30:45

him power and he enjoyed that but it was limited

30:47

in a legal sense you know

30:49

you construct and who what he can do and i mean

30:51

even though we know that correctional officers can

30:53

do things that are you know they can go beyond

30:56

i think he was under in a more surveillance

30:58

is none so i think he wanted to exercise

31:00

his power in a different way and take it further

31:03

and i think this he did it in a way

31:05

that would be viewed as the god like complex

31:07

you heard of this were stewart felt self

31:09

important hide old and

31:12

he showed an utter disregard for the pain of those

31:14

who he hurt i wonder if he if

31:16

his goal was to have a go as far as it

31:18

did or it was kind of like i was

31:20

just gonna mess with these people and now it's gotten outta

31:22

control like you know to me like i wonder if

31:24

his goal was to the have

31:26

people actually assaulting other people i

31:28

think it either yeah novels was i think his goal was to

31:30

take things as far as a me as a as if there is

31:33

a good most people to go easy to

31:35

a did it sixty times him

31:37

or you know he did

31:38

or you know if they are now if there was in the

31:40

their perpetrator

31:41

yes i think the goal was just a push people

31:43

to see how far people would go he

31:46

would he can do to other people just

31:48

at that command of his voice is

31:50

or other i mean i guess i kind of best

31:52

explain it but the think there are other series

31:55

or another series of a missing i was

31:57

kind of thinking of total control of our lives

31:59

i wonder right it's a control balance for

32:01

thought about it in a kind of release a little

32:03

bit to that with that the goblin complex and he thinks

32:06

you know a but it's hard to explain because

32:08

and he can think of is he had too

32:10

much power to little dance you don't i mean

32:13

noma seems like both than way it does

32:15

to me like he had so much power in this regard

32:17

over people you know he he exercise

32:19

so much power because they thought he was an authority figure

32:21

but i think it is own life he probably

32:23

felt powerless the and that's why he needed

32:25

to purpose or he wanted to perpetrate their homes

32:28

because i make sense yeah what about series that could explain

32:30

walter oh back to

32:32

no i didn't even think about that i think we looked

32:35

so i was looking to the now barrowman

32:37

and i was looking to these others yeah the

32:39

big you could explain that you that i human nature but

32:41

he i think that you know compliance

32:44

authority and then i think maybe

32:46

he started even enjoy yeah so roll it

32:48

up you will you know he was he was as he was

32:50

going yeah but quickly realized

32:52

after when taken out of that situation how

32:55

wrong how illegal how completely

32:57

have a moral his behavior was

32:59

no all right so i think it's the

33:01

best way we can explain it it's so interesting that

33:03

last

33:04

before we go today we want to talk about whether

33:06

or not the criminal justice system got it right

33:08

sept start with stewart

33:10

linked with from what i heard i

33:12

didn't look at the trial transcript i wasn't

33:14

as a trial but the little bit i heard it doesn't

33:16

sound like they that they met the burden

33:18

of proof that are much as i think it might be seward

33:20

as much as i would love to see someone held

33:23

the town of all i'm i'm not sure

33:25

that there is enough evidence because i i

33:27

do agree i think it was him instinctual

33:29

li i really do but

33:31

you know we want juries always to look

33:33

at reasonable doubt and i could see i can't fault

33:35

them in this case if they had it so while

33:38

i don't think that you know it

33:40

just this was necessarily served enough

33:42

hoping a jury here in

33:44

hum of punishing both donna summer's and

33:46

walter next yes i think the system

33:48

got it right i think donna needed some

33:50

punishment i don't i wouldn't have been okay with her not

33:52

getting any type of responsibility next

33:55

i'd sinks five years i mean the even

33:58

would have wanted to see a little bit more but i do thing

33:59

prison sentence and a felon phrases

34:02

that sony prison sentence was correct it's

34:04

interesting to think about walter

34:06

like would he have committed this type of crime

34:09

as he was not kind of led into it i

34:11

don't think so he has it he he didn't have a history

34:13

yeah no i don't think so again

34:15

ordinary people doing an

34:17

ordinary things not the good way to

34:20

i feel like louise did find some justice in the civil

34:22

suit on civil know i'm as he

34:24

doing okay today like are not fine

34:27

and out and i'm on her i looked really

34:29

hard and i do know that afterwards

34:31

she had given interviews they were pleased to

34:33

the verdict suffer pts of the most

34:35

and symptoms that no monetary figure

34:37

can enter make up for

34:39

let's just hope that the publicity of her ordeal

34:41

was serve as a warning to others who

34:43

might fund themselves on the other end

34:45

of a phone call like the one place to mcdonalds

34:48

that day in two thousand and four

34:49

wild story i know i'm glad

34:52

you brought that case to my attention i'd never

34:54

heard of before an ill what a

34:56

horrible thing that happened to that garland sounds like

34:58

many other people who are victims in the situation

35:01

right i know i thought the summers in different

35:03

i began with a in raids

35:06

in was so curious so curious this one is looking

35:08

at human being

35:09

easier and

35:10

oddities and complex yeah a few of us yeah

35:13

it was as a nice change of pace thank you all

35:15

right thanks again everyone for listening and will

35:17

catch next time on women and cry

35:20

women and crime is written and hosted

35:22

by meghan sacks and amy sla spark

35:25

our producer an editor is james

35:27

varga music composition is by

35:29

desert media enjoy

35:31

the show please remember to subscribe and

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35:44

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36:03

her who for today's episode include

36:05

a b c news courier journal the

36:07

movie compliance and interviews

36:09

between john can your nice with summer

36:12

donna summer and louise are born