0:02

Hi

0:05

everyone, I'm Anne Helen

0:07

Peterson and this is Work Appropriate.

0:19

So more than a decade ago, I was working

0:21

at a hippie little boarding school in Vermont. This

0:24

place was amazing and I absolutely

0:26

loved teaching there. But in addition to teaching

0:28

six days a week, we taught in the morning on Saturdays,

0:31

new teachers also had to live in dorms

0:34

and dedicated two nights a week plus every

0:36

other weekend to dorm duty.

0:39

If you've ever hung out with teenagers, you know

0:42

this is a lot. After

0:44

my first few months, I realized something. They're

0:46

in their first, second, maybe

0:48

third year, or they'd been

0:50

there for a decade or two.

0:53

Gradually, it became clear that teachers took two

0:55

routes. They burned themselves out

0:58

and left, or they figured out

1:00

how to operate at a sustainable pace. That

1:03

meant not dedicating all your waking hours

1:05

to lesson planning and grading and meeting with students,

1:08

but it also meant setting firmer boundaries around

1:10

your general availability. I

1:14

ended up leaving before I burnt out entirely

1:16

when I got a job offer I couldn't refuse, but

1:19

that lesson has stuck with me. Sometimes

1:22

you have to do less, even in

1:24

a passion job that you love, in

1:26

order to keep doing the

1:27

work that matters. Matters to you,

1:29

but also matters to all the people whose

1:31

lives your work touches. So

1:34

this episode is all about how to quote

1:36

unquote care less about your passion job,

1:39

but it's really about how to make this sort of work sustainable.

1:43

And our co-host today has been thinking about this question,

1:46

both in her life, but also in the lives of

1:48

others for years.

1:53

My name is Dena Simmons. What's

1:56

your background in? Can you tell us about that? My

1:58

background starts as an educator.

1:59

education. So I started my career

2:02

as a teacher, a middle school teacher

2:04

in the Bronx, New York.

2:06

And I taught there for several years.

2:09

And there, for me,

2:11

I think it's important to know that I was

2:13

returning home when I went back to the Bronx,

2:16

I didn't go to the Bronx and say, let me save

2:18

these kids, like a bunch of folks say, when

2:21

they talk about teaching. After

2:23

teaching, I went to get my doctorate

2:25

degree in education, where

2:27

I focused my studies

2:30

on assessing teacher preparedness to address

2:33

bullying in the middle school setting. Because

2:35

as a child, I was always fascinated

2:38

by safety, and who got to

2:40

be safe. And so as a kid growing

2:42

up in the Bronx, I was often

2:45

worried about my safety. And

2:47

so I wanted to study

2:49

how do we create safe spaces. And

2:51

one way I decided to do that was studying,

2:53

well, how prepared teachers feel to keep

2:56

children free of bullying to prevent bullying,

2:58

right? And so that was my research. And then I

3:01

went on to be faculty

3:03

at the Yale Center for emotional intelligence.

3:05

And I left publicly in 2021. Because it

3:09

was the most oppressive

3:11

and toxic and hostile place I've worked. A

3:15

lot of places in academia, despite

3:17

all of the good that I was able to do. Yeah,

3:20

it was still at

3:22

the cost of so many things in

3:24

my spirit in my health and my

3:27

well being. So so yeah,

3:30

that's my background.

3:31

How would you describe the mood of educators

3:34

in America right now? Well,

3:37

I would say if you were to describe the mood

3:39

of educators, I would first ask

3:41

them, instead of having

3:44

me sage on the stage or expert

3:46

to do that, but I have I have the

3:48

privilege of working with educators through

3:50

my work as founder of liberate

3:53

ed where we

3:54

center radical love healing and social

3:56

racial justice and education with

3:58

the goal of creating a world where all children

4:01

could live, learn, and thrive in the comfort of their

4:03

skin. And so with the educators

4:05

with whom I've worked and also in my speaking,

4:07

I am hearing that educators

4:09

feel demoralized. They feel disrespected.

4:13

They feel stressed and burnt out based

4:15

on not having the resources to

4:18

do what they are being asked to do. And that

4:20

is a continuation

4:22

since before the pandemic, it

4:24

was exasperated during the pandemic

4:26

and it has only continued. Yeah.

4:28

Can you talk a little bit about the difference between demoralization

4:31

and burnout? Because I found that distinction

4:34

really useful. That

4:35

idea of like, I do not have the tools

4:38

to do the job as I feel

4:40

it should be done. Like that's just such a useful

4:42

tool. Yeah. So I

4:44

feel like when people feel demoralized,

4:47

they lose sort of confidence

4:51

and they feel disheartened and they

4:53

no longer feel that they can do what

4:55

they have done well.

4:58

Whereas burnout, when

5:00

feeling burnt out is a particular

5:02

construct that has several components

5:05

of it. But essentially it's related,

5:08

I would relate it to toxic stress.

5:10

Right. It's this over and over,

5:13

like you're experiencing something over

5:15

and over again, sort

5:17

of this stress or this discomfort,

5:20

which impacts how

5:22

well you can do your job. It

5:24

impacts how well you feel. It impacts

5:27

your engagement in your

5:30

role and the purpose that

5:32

you feel related to your role.

5:34

So you just feel like

5:36

you just don't have it in you anymore. So I

5:39

would just say, you know, a good, something

5:42

to think about as a way to visualize

5:44

it is as a candle, right? Eventually

5:46

the candle has nothing left to

5:49

give once it's burnt to the core.

5:52

So you couple that will feeling demoralized

5:54

and disrespected. There's not

5:56

that much, you know, that

5:58

excitement educators feel

6:00

when we first walk into the classroom. That is sort

6:02

of stripped from you when you feel demoralized,

6:05

that excitement, that enthusiasm, that

6:08

purpose to do better and

6:10

to gift your students with

6:12

the knowledge that you have been gifted from your

6:15

educators and so on and so forth. I

6:17

come from a line of educators

6:19

and also from people who've watched

6:21

even just the field of education change so dramatically

6:24

over the

6:24

course of the last, we

6:27

could say 20, 30, 40 years. But

6:29

I think that there's this feeling and I wanna

6:31

extend it past just educators as well,

6:34

but this feeling of like, if I don't care about

6:36

this, if I leave, if

6:38

I quit,

6:39

no one else will care about this. And

6:42

I wonder if you have any insight before

6:44

we go into the questions about how to be so

6:48

deeply involved to care so much, but

6:50

then also how to take care of yourself and

6:53

how that's changed for you over time. Right,

6:55

so first of all, I think when we talk about

6:57

education when you ask me what is the

7:00

mood of educators, how our teachers are

7:02

feeling, I think it's important to also add the

7:04

socio-political layer onto

7:06

this, which is that teachers are literally

7:09

under attack. Yep.

7:10

Right, we have an anti-critical race

7:12

theory movement, teacher mentions race,

7:14

teacher mentions sexuality, a teacher

7:17

mentions white supremacy,

7:21

oh, she could fear losing her job. So I think

7:23

that context is important as we

7:25

think about and understand how teachers

7:27

are feeling. And so I would

7:30

say for the educator who's like, I care

7:32

so much about this, this is like,

7:35

if I don't do this, no one else will, I will

7:37

say that's not true. First

7:39

of all, I had that mentality,

7:42

which is like, I have to do this, but

7:44

we have to also get over ourselves. Like

7:47

when I was at Yale, I stuck

7:49

through so much toxicity

7:51

and hostility because I really wanted to create

7:54

a better environment. And I did the best that I

7:56

could and I did make it

7:58

better while I was there.

7:59

because I come from the ethos

8:02

that leave things better than when

8:04

you found it. And so

8:06

I, as one person, did not

8:09

have the capacity to change an entire

8:11

system, an entire institution. That needed

8:13

to happen in community. And so

8:15

what I often tell educators is

8:18

find your community so that it's not only

8:20

on you. Find other people

8:22

who care. Connect with

8:25

the community of your school

8:28

and engage in this work at the community

8:30

level so that you don't feel that

8:32

all of that weight is on your shoulders. So

8:35

I would say that's the first thing. And the second

8:37

thing is you cannot be the best

8:39

teacher that you can be if you are

8:41

stressed and burnt out. Because what we know

8:44

from the research is that when teachers are stressed

8:46

and burnt out, their interactions with their students

8:48

are less warm. Their students

8:50

don't do as well because school climate suffers,

8:53

right? And so in many ways, I always

8:55

tell people that a stress and burnt out teaching force

8:58

is an equity issue because it

8:59

influences how students

9:02

do socially, emotionally,

9:04

and academically. So teachers

9:06

have to take care of themselves if they do want

9:08

to take care of their students.

9:11

And then on top of that, school systems

9:14

need to take better care of

9:16

our teachers so that the onus is

9:18

not necessarily on the self-care

9:20

but on the collective care.

9:23

We did an episode a few weeks ago called How

9:25

to Care Less About Your Job. And naturally we

9:27

heard from so many people who were like, if

9:30

I care less, people will suffer, but

9:32

also help, I am so burnt out. And

9:35

these listeners were from a bunch of different industries,

9:37

teaching, of course, but also social work, nonprofits,

9:40

healthcare.

9:41

So for our first question, we're going to hear from

9:44

one listener named Katie who sums up this conundrum

9:46

really nicely. And then I'm gonna read

9:49

off a few of the different variations on the question

9:51

that we got from other listeners.

9:53

Okay, so here's Katie's question read by our

9:55

producer, Melody. I work at an elementary

9:58

school in a large urban public-

11:59

doing better at setting boundaries because

12:01

now I work for myself. And I

12:03

know also as someone who was recently

12:06

diagnosed with a chronic illness that my

12:08

body was set boundaries for me. So

12:10

boundaries means something differently from

12:12

me. So what I often tell people is,

12:15

do

12:16

you want to be around long enough for

12:18

your work, for your passion, for your people,

12:21

for your family, for your community? And

12:24

if you want, if the answer is yes, then what are you

12:26

going to do to take care of yourself

12:28

so that you can care for others the way you say

12:31

matters to you? I think once

12:33

we believe that we can do this and

12:35

we can do that, and yes, you get a yes,

12:37

and you get a yes, that

12:39

we have to start saying yes to ourselves.

12:42

And I don't think we say yes to ourselves enough because we

12:44

feel guilty. And I

12:46

often think about the work of

12:48

Audre Lorde, who talked

12:50

about caring for ourselves as

12:53

being part of the revolution, right?

12:56

And especially for Black women who

12:58

have had our identities and

13:00

humanity and personhood tied to our labor.

13:04

And so I often had to

13:06

basically extrapolate my

13:08

labor, my success from my wellness,

13:10

from my enoughness, from

13:12

my being in order to understand

13:15

that I have to care for myself

13:18

in order to be the best person that

13:20

I can be for the people that I love, for

13:22

the people that I want to be around

13:25

long enough to enjoy, and long

13:27

enough to see my descendants. And so

13:30

that's what I'll say for that. And I know you have other

13:32

parts of this question, so I'll stop here because

13:35

I can go on and on. No, I know.

13:38

So I mean, as

13:39

a follow up to that question, it reminds

13:42

me of this conversation that we had a couple

13:45

of months ago with Dominique Baker,

13:47

specifically about burnout and academia, and

13:50

people who are just feeling really bad about like,

13:52

I'm leaving academia, I feel like I'm feeling my students.

13:55

Can anyone like do my job?

13:57

And this piece of advice so much.

14:00

good. She said, you're special, but you're not that

14:02

special. Facts. And

14:05

I think sometimes we get this inflated

14:09

sense of

14:10

how important we are, right?

14:12

And like in some ways, yes, obviously

14:14

you are so important. Your work that you are

14:16

doing is so important. But also

14:19

if you go away, like it's not like the entire

14:21

community is going to crumble

14:23

in a pile of ashes. I totally

14:25

agree with that. It's funny because I was

14:28

talking to some educators the other day and

14:30

someone asked, but the similar question that we

14:32

heard earlier. And I said, we

14:34

have to get over ourselves. We're really

14:36

not that important. Like the

14:39

work will continue. Somebody will replace

14:41

you. And

14:42

it's really that level perspective

14:44

that says that if I missed school

14:46

today and I

14:48

come back tomorrow better, everyone

14:50

wins. But instead we tell ourselves the stories

14:53

that if I am not here tomorrow,

14:55

everyone loses. And I think we

14:58

need to start shifting the

15:00

fact that caring for ourselves should not

15:02

be in competition with anything else.

15:04

It should be a norm. So the question rather

15:07

isn't about myself, but what about the

15:10

school system is causing me to have

15:12

to make these choices? And that's what

15:14

we should start asking. Like we're about the academic

15:16

settings from either

15:18

K all the way to university. Why do we

15:20

have to make that choice? So what do we do about

15:22

these cases where like she can't

15:24

say no, because if you have to ever cover a class,

15:27

like she really needs to do that. But then

15:29

also there are sometimes when I think probably she

15:31

could say no to some things, but

15:33

oftentimes we need to institute a practice

15:36

of saying no, especially for people pleasers like

15:39

ourselves. So do you have any advice on

15:41

that part of the question?

15:43

So people pleasers have a hard

15:45

time saying no, but what I've been learning

15:47

is no is a complete sentence. I

15:50

have a hard time saying no without giving

15:52

every reason why I'm saying no, because I'm

15:54

so guilty. I'm like, no, because I have a doctor's

15:56

appointment. I'm like, you don't need to know all of that.

15:58

Like just know people.

15:59

period. I know. But I was

16:02

a teacher and I had to cover

16:04

classes and I sometimes would get

16:06

upset like I this is my free period.

16:09

Some ways this is where the union is helpful

16:11

because the union actually protects

16:14

you from being asked to do

16:16

things during your year. So you have

16:18

to want I always tell people it's important that you know your

16:20

rights. Like you have to know what is

16:23

within your contractual agreement,

16:25

the union contract agreement

16:28

specifically with teachers. And

16:29

there were times when I was being asked to cover a class

16:32

more than I should have been asked and I had to go

16:35

to my union rep and figure out a way to advocate

16:37

for myself. And so in

16:39

some cases we can say no we

16:41

can like I would tell sometimes I tell my principal

16:43

I cannot do it right now like I need to prep for

16:46

this class. There are by the way other

16:48

teachers that might be able to do it. So

16:50

I would say test test out

16:53

knows test out what you what

16:55

knows you can get away

16:57

with for lack of a better way of saying

16:59

it

16:59

because there's something that's magical

17:03

that happens when you start to say no is that

17:05

people are

17:06

OK with it. And if they're not OK

17:08

with it they learn to be OK with it.

17:11

And we cannot take on their

17:13

upset and their disappointment

17:16

because we've decided to prioritize ourselves.

17:19

So I would advise that you

17:21

find the moments where you can

17:23

get away with that no and you know

17:26

your rights as an educator

17:29

and you know where the boundaries are and

17:31

you set them slowly on Shirley.

17:34

And if you're like me you

17:36

unlearn those yeses

17:38

and you have to become more discerning of

17:41

your yeses. Right. Because

17:43

time is time is is finite.

17:46

And so we have to say is this the best way

17:48

I can be spending my time. What are

17:50

the things activities or things

17:54

that this this person is doing that's not bringing joy.

17:57

And how do you do more things that bring joy

17:59

so that when you get to. to the moment where someone's asking you

18:01

to cover a class, you have the reserves,

18:04

the excitement, and the resources

18:06

to say yes. But don't do it if you don't have the resources.

18:09

That's such an important point. And I also love

18:11

that you brought up the union, because

18:13

if you are in a state where

18:15

the union has power, they can be

18:18

your insulation

18:20

from these asks that are taking so much

18:22

from you. Sometimes you can rely on the

18:25

contract to say no for you.

18:27

And I hate to say that because people

18:30

will say, oh, so you're going to be that teacher

18:32

that leaves at 3.20 at the contractual

18:34

hours and you're not going to do this. And that

18:37

is how we learn overworked by the way. We

18:39

tell people you should feel guilty that

18:41

you're leaving at the time that you're supposed

18:44

to leave. Why don't you stay 25 hours

18:47

extra and work and clean the school

18:49

building while you're at it? And I often tell people,

18:51

you are going to be better at

18:54

whatever you do

18:55

if you love yourself, if you care

18:58

for yourself, and if you

19:01

have the support

19:02

and community you need to thrive.

19:05

What about the person who says, if I

19:07

leave the people I work

19:09

with are going to suffer? Like,

19:12

how do you deal with that kind of emotional

19:15

weight or guilt? What does suffering

19:17

mean, right? Because suffering

19:19

is a very heavy word. Yes.

19:24

Maybe another word that

19:26

is less drastic than suffering is going

19:29

to mean. Maybe they're going to have to cover for

19:31

me.

19:32

Right? So if we think about the school setting, when I missed

19:34

a day, someone did have to cover for me. In

19:36

New York City Department of Education, there's a thing

19:38

called Sub-Central. You call a number and a substitute

19:41

comes in. Sometimes that's not always

19:43

effective and a teacher has to cover for you. But

19:45

that's why a community is important. I have to

19:47

trust that just as someone will

19:49

cover for me, I will cover for someone else.

19:52

So there's this community

19:54

effort to ensure that we're all taken care of and

19:56

that we're all caring for ourselves. And

19:59

I know.

19:59

know the pressure of if

20:02

I don't do this or if I don't show up, it's

20:04

going to impact everyone. Everyone's going

20:06

to have a worse day because now they have to do

20:09

my work. And I have to say

20:11

that those feelings

20:12

are temporary. They won't last. It's

20:14

not going to be eternal suffering. Because

20:17

what we have to understand is that when you show

20:20

up in the classroom or in your job,

20:22

not as your best self, as your burnt out

20:24

self, as your demoralized self, what actually

20:26

good are you doing? Because again, like

20:29

I shared, first of all, we need to understand

20:31

that emotions can be contagious.

20:34

There is a term. There's

20:36

this idea called the emotion

20:39

contagion theory. It's a theory of construct. And

20:41

so essentially, it's what it sounds like. Emotions are

20:43

contagious, or they can be contagious. And

20:46

so you could just think about your own life, the listeners.

20:48

You could think about your life when you've been around

20:50

someone who saw the world or

20:53

a glass as half full or half

20:55

empty. If you're around that, for

20:57

example, Dina Downer, you start to feel

20:59

that energy too. And

21:02

so the same thing can happen in the classroom. You show

21:04

up stressed. And guess what? Now suddenly your

21:07

students are stressed. Or you're anxious,

21:09

and now your students are anxious because that's leeching

21:11

out into

21:12

your classroom community. So I

21:14

feel like we have to think not only of

21:17

right now, but we also have to think about

21:20

how, if we don't take care of ourselves,

21:22

and we're not our best selves, how that not

21:25

best self is actually having a

21:27

larger

21:28

future impact that actually

21:30

is not what we have in mind

21:32

and is not what we want. So if

21:35

we shifted how we thought and

21:37

said, if I take the

21:39

day off, I will come in better

21:42

tomorrow. And I'll be able to

21:45

support my students and my colleagues

21:47

because I would have been rejuvenated.

21:50

This also makes me think of how cynicism

21:53

is really contagious. And

21:55

that's something I see in a lot of these

21:57

professions where people are so burnt out, whether

21:59

it's

21:59

social work or other forms

22:02

of community care. You just

22:04

get so worn down that it's really easy to

22:06

think, just to talk about how broken the system

22:09

is all the time. And I get it.

22:11

The system is broken,

22:13

but also, you're around

22:16

people that you were trying to provide care for, and

22:18

that cynicism is that's a contagion.

22:21

Yes. For me, I always

22:24

tell people that I cannot

22:26

always live in

22:29

the darkness because I wouldn't

22:31

get up. And it's so easy.

22:34

There's so much darkness around me. So I often

22:37

say that, like my ancestors,

22:40

my Black ancestors, my ancestors who

22:42

were enslaved, my ancestors who were

22:45

in the Holocaust,

22:46

that hope is

22:49

what wakes me up. The

22:51

fact that I believe that there is something

22:53

better and that every day I could

22:55

work little by little for something

22:58

better. And I can trust in community,

23:00

little by little, we could work for something better.

23:02

And then I look for the lightness

23:05

in the cracks, the beauty

23:08

in the mundane, the sort

23:11

of laughter in

23:13

the pain, if that makes any sense. So I try to find

23:16

the hope in the everyday

23:19

darkness because I have to, if I don't, I would be

23:21

depressed all the time. And so I remember

23:24

that my ancestors survived so that I can be

23:26

here today to do the work that I'm doing.

23:28

And I feel very grateful for that. And I have

23:30

a certain level of responsibility to

23:33

find that hope and

23:35

to move forward with that hope and to share it. And

23:37

it's really hard to find that hope when you're

23:40

so tired, right? When you have no time for

23:42

yourself. That is a difficult

23:45

feeling to excavate. And I

23:46

think that's like, you know, when people

23:49

do have that dialogue

23:51

in their head of like, oh,

23:53

if I take this time, like I'm failing in

23:56

some way. And I wonder if there's like a phrase that

23:58

we could use to like talk.

25:59

Before that, I decided to resign from a

26:02

job that I thought I would spend the rest of my life.

26:04

Right? I thought I would spend the rest of my

26:06

life. I had done everything I

26:08

was supposed to do as a

26:10

little poor girl from the Bronx to

26:13

end up at an Ivy League institution

26:16

as a faculty member. I

26:18

got into Columbia University. I

26:21

got a Fulbright, a Truman, a Soros

26:25

fellowship. I did

26:27

all the fellowships. I did every

26:29

network.

26:29

I did a dissertation fellowship at Phillips

26:32

Exeter Academy. You name it, I am a part of those

26:34

networks. I did what I was supposed

26:36

to do and what I thought like

26:38

you said, this religion, right? The religion

26:41

I had learned was overwork. The religion

26:43

I had learned was your enoughness

26:46

is attached to your achievement

26:49

or your high achievement if

26:51

we were real. I've

26:54

done everything and here I am in 2021

26:57

walking away from my dream

26:59

job.

27:00

Because seven years before

27:02

that, when I walked into that job, I

27:05

had to realize over time that I was

27:07

rationalizing the

27:09

hostility

27:12

that I was experiencing. I

27:14

kept rationalizing and rationalizing

27:17

it. I had

27:18

to at one point ask myself at what

27:20

cost and I only began to ask

27:22

myself that question of what cost during

27:25

the pandemic when I didn't have to take

27:27

the three-hour commute from New York

27:29

City to New Haven and back.

27:32

So that was six hours. I got to be very clear that it was

27:34

six hours a day, right? I

27:36

was so committed to this

27:39

idea that this was, I had arrived.

27:41

This I had gotten and done when I was supposed to do it. I

27:43

had worked. I had overworked,

27:46

right? And then the pandemic hit and

27:48

I

27:48

didn't have to do that. And so

27:50

there was yes, less physical stress, but

27:52

also I didn't have to deal with the daily microaggressions,

27:56

the daily slights, the daily

27:58

oversight.

27:59

the daily undoctoring. Everyone

28:02

else gets doctored, but Dr. Simmons doesn't.

28:04

Yet she's the only Black person in the room. I think that's

28:07

important. So the pandemic,

28:09

in many ways, gave me the

28:11

stillness to reflect on what was important

28:13

to me. And one of the lessons I learned from

28:16

the pandemic that I would like to share with other

28:18

people is that I had

28:20

to

28:21

redefine success. Success

28:25

now for me includes how

28:27

well I am, one, how

28:31

much time I make to rest,

28:34

to laugh, to spend time with

28:36

my family, how present am I. And

28:38

so I have a new definition

28:41

of success that does not require me killing

28:43

myself, overworking myself

28:46

from some idea of success

28:48

that shifts, by the way, especially for Black

28:50

folks,

28:52

that shifts for you because

28:54

you're never supposed to achieve it because

28:57

you have to continue working for it. Because

29:00

if you don't work for it, what does this nation

29:02

have without Black labor?

29:04

And so I had to really come to that realization.

29:06

And I have done nothing but thrive since

29:10

centering and valuing my care

29:12

and my restoration

29:15

and my rest. Well, and I like

29:17

that idea of reframing it. So it's not

29:19

that you quit your dream job. It's

29:22

that you redefine what success look like. And

29:24

maybe success looks like quitting

29:26

a job. Right, exactly.

29:28

You had asked me about quitting jobs. And

29:31

I was like, sometimes the job will quit you,

29:33

as in, sometimes

29:37

we have to tell ourselves.

29:40

And it's funny because I'm thinking about this therapy

29:42

when I had therapy with my therapist

29:45

toward the beginning of the pandemic.

29:48

And I was reflecting on why. I was like,

29:50

why do I have to be the one to leave? I

29:52

didn't do anything. I did everything

29:54

I was supposed to do. I worked so hard.

29:57

I made all these sacrifices. And this is what she

29:59

told me.

29:59

And because my question was

30:02

why do I have to be the one to leave it? She said,

30:04

well, you can also

30:06

think about it. Perhaps you've

30:08

outgrown it.

30:10

And so I want to share that with

30:12

other folks that sometimes we outgrow places. Sometimes

30:16

places don't serve us love the way we deserve.

30:18

And we have to realize that when we go to a place

30:20

and we interview, we're interviewing them as well. It

30:22

has to serve us just as much as we

30:25

offer and serve a place as well. It's

30:27

a relationship at the end of the day. Yeah, right.

30:30

Like you are giving this place labor. They

30:32

are paying you, but you are also laboring for

30:34

them. It is a relationship and you both have

30:36

to want to be in the relationship.

30:54

Hey

30:59

guys, this is Kenan Thompson. I

31:04

have a problem with you. Yes, you. None

31:06

of y'all told me that AutoTrader has millions of new and used cars that

31:08

I can shop

31:12

from home. I

31:13

thought we were friends. I put smiles on your face, but

31:15

I'm not smiling. No

31:17

one told me that with autotrader,

31:19

I'm not smiling. I'm not smiling. I'm not smiling. I'm

31:22

not smiling. I'm not smiling. I'm not

31:24

smiling. I'm not smiling. I'm not smiling.

31:27

I'm not smiling. No one told me that

31:29

with AutoTrader, a dealer can deliver cars

31:31

to my home or that I could shop by price

31:33

on AutoTrader.

31:35

No one. Consider this friendship

31:37

that you just learned we had officially

31:39

over. Finally, it's easy.

31:43

AutoTrader. Bros,

31:46

dudes, and people who support abortion rights, the

31:48

Crooked Store has some new merch just

31:50

for you. The Bros for Row collection

31:52

of teas and koozies is a great way to show

31:55

that the right to an abortion is important for people

31:57

of all genders while also keeping

31:59

your beer. cold. We gotta reclaim beer culture

32:02

from Brett Kavanaugh. This is important.

32:04

Check it out at crooked.com slash

32:06

store.

32:13

Our next question is from Sarah, who is dealing

32:15

with what she calls caring creep.

32:18

I work in a helping profession, providing

32:20

direct services to people with a huge

32:22

scope of practice. The pressure is

32:24

always there to learn more, care more, and

32:27

to do more. After doing this

32:29

for years, I'm realizing that although

32:31

I like my job, this extra pressure,

32:33

both for myself, co-workers, and

32:36

those I work with, to learn, care, and

32:38

do is unreasonable and burns

32:40

me out. Just as one example,

32:42

there are so many continuing education

32:44

courses I could take, that I

32:47

could do that and just that until retirement.

32:49

And many are expensive and time-consuming,

32:52

meaning I'm working all day and then trying to learn

32:54

more. As another example, there's this caring

32:57

creep that happens where people send

32:59

very long email updates and there's no

33:01

way I can be reading and

33:03

still be seeing and helping humans 40 hours

33:05

a week. I like what I do, but

33:08

the extras are unsustainable. All

33:10

right, so this idea of caring

33:12

creep, I feel like it's so applicable in many

33:15

ways to academia too,

33:17

because there's just so many ways that you could always be

33:19

doing more. And then, like, the

33:21

understanding of what you need to do to get a job

33:23

changes, and then also the understanding of what

33:25

you need to do to get tenure changes.

33:27

There's just never any time. I think

33:30

there's this myth that, like, oh,

33:32

you get tenure and then you just, like, relax, right?

33:35

No! Most institutions,

33:37

very much not the case. But I can

33:40

see in other

33:40

caring institutions where there is an expectation

33:43

for continuing education,

33:45

especially education that you have to do on your own time,

33:48

and just, like, always being asked to care

33:51

about another thing. It's hard. So what's your

33:53

advice

33:54

here? You know, first of

33:56

all, yes, if you're a

33:58

K-12 teacher, you have to take

33:59

you know, continuing education courses. If

34:02

you're a social work educator, if you're an academic,

34:05

you go to the academic conferences,

34:08

you present, you have to write papers

34:10

to make sure folks think that you're still, as

34:13

we say, productive. Uh-huh, productive.

34:15

And so, productive, right? And so

34:17

I'm like, well, first of all, let's actually,

34:20

let's take apart productivity,

34:22

right? What is productivity connected to

34:25

white supremacy? It is, right? So

34:28

our country is built on this

34:29

idea of labor, right? Oftentimes,

34:32

cheap labor. And so because

34:34

we have that mentality as a nation of cheap

34:36

labor, so we have in our

34:39

beings, in our

34:42

nation's blueprint, this

34:44

idea that there is an expectation

34:47

for an overseer

34:49

to ensure that you're doing your job the way

34:51

the overseer or those in power want you to

34:53

do it. And so oftentimes, I think

34:55

about those continue education course, which

34:58

can be helpful, but many of them are kind of low

35:00

quality, boring, but

35:03

I have to do it in order to key up my certification

35:05

or my license. And so to

35:07

me, I think we have to, one, evaluate

35:10

what we're asking people to do and

35:13

if it's actually helpful, and then figure

35:15

out what is more meaningful. Educators

35:18

want to select

35:19

the professional development that they decide

35:22

as opposed to having top-down. Yeah.

35:24

There's something about being free to

35:26

choose what you want to learn. How can we leverage

35:29

that curiosity to

35:32

improve someone in a profession

35:34

or for someone to improve in their profession, something

35:36

that they want to learn? But then we also have

35:38

to ask ourselves, why are we asking people

35:41

to do this? Is it about control? Because

35:43

what we know is when people feel like they're controlled

35:46

or they're being asked to do something just to check

35:48

the box, it does lead

35:49

to burnout. So it's all related.

35:53

Yeah. Well, and even this example,

35:55

she's kind of vague in how she describes it, but

35:58

long emails relating.

36:00

something that she should care about, right?

36:02

Clearly, it's being related

36:04

in a way that makes it very difficult to care

36:07

about. And then you might even come to resent

36:09

these emails. So of course you're not going to

36:11

care about them like moving forward.

36:13

So how can this information be

36:16

presented in a different way that

36:18

makes it easier to care? We're

36:20

right. What I tell people is

36:23

either

36:24

one, we have a,

36:26

depending on, because what I was curious about

36:28

when I listened to that was what was this person's role?

36:31

Because not everyone has the responsibility

36:33

of having to check emails

36:36

or to check this box or

36:38

manage this, that of the other. And

36:41

so for me, when

36:43

I have a team who I need

36:45

to hear from, I have a standing meeting with them.

36:47

It could be a standing short meeting, give me

36:50

the updates. But if it's an email,

36:52

give it to me in bullet points. I would

36:54

say sometimes you

36:56

don't need some updates, right? So give

36:58

me the most relevant information that I need

37:00

to help you.

37:02

So sometimes you have to set the

37:04

boundaries with how you want people to communicate

37:06

to you as a way for you

37:09

to keep the passion and the

37:11

excitement you have for your job and you're not dreading

37:13

or feeling resentment for those emails. And

37:15

so yeah, you have to set those boundaries of

37:18

communication to support your

37:20

self-care and also collective care.

37:23

You could frame it in a positive way that says, I

37:25

want to care about this stuff. Here

37:27

is how to help me care about this stuff. Well,

37:30

I would say I managed she might not say that

37:32

she doesn't care, right? So she

37:34

might say, tell me

37:36

how, like, because I think the most important

37:38

thing is in this person's, I'm

37:41

imagining that this person has a role

37:43

where she's in a position of power. And

37:45

so essentially she's trying to

37:47

ask them to help me help you, help me help

37:50

you. And so here's how you can help me

37:52

help you. I want to get the most pertinent

37:54

information as I can to help you. And

37:57

so just that's all I need. question

38:00

though about continuing ed like these other

38:02

classes, I think people

38:04

with less power in the workplace for whatever

38:06

reason that they always have to be going above

38:09

and beyond in order to excel. So

38:11

what would be your advice about what she can

38:13

skip, like what how she can have, what

38:16

posture should she have towards these classes?

38:18

At the end of the day we have to think about what

38:20

roles people are in. So you generally people in

38:23

executive roles do not have to take,

38:25

depending on their capacity, do not

38:27

have to take continuing education, although

38:30

some should, right? We know some should, right?

38:32

Like go ahead take that class, let

38:35

me send you some stuff. I will give you the

38:37

class, but that's not always the case.

38:40

And so some of

38:41

our professions like for the teaching profession,

38:43

social work, we actually have specific

38:46

number of credits we have to get in order

38:48

to keep our license active. So there

38:50

are some courses that she

38:53

might have to take because she doesn't have a choice.

38:55

Yeah. So one

38:57

of it is how do I find joy in it and

39:00

how do I do this most efficiently? I

39:02

have found listening

39:04

while I work the whole like ebook

39:06

situation and podcasts like this

39:09

have completely revolutionized my life because I can

39:11

listen and learn while I'm

39:13

doing something else, while I'm folding the laundry,

39:16

while I'm going for a walk, finding that

39:18

care. Like I have built it in

39:20

to like listen to read books, listening

39:23

to them and going for a walk. So

39:25

that is the way I'm caring for myself or

39:27

listening to a recording a meeting

39:29

and then listening to it.

39:31

And so that I'm getting the learning while I'm doing

39:34

something that I enjoy or something that needs

39:36

to happen in the house that I need

39:38

to get done anyway. So I'm just trying

39:40

to find ways how to be, I guess

39:44

that I mean, yes, multitask in a

39:46

joyful way, if that makes sense. It

39:50

does make sense. Don't do more work. Just be

39:52

efficient. Yeah. And there is, I think

39:54

there is a difference between, oh, I

39:56

want to be productive. So I'm like listening to this podcast

39:58

at three times speed and then all

39:59

doing my laundry and also like, I

40:02

don't know, I have weights on my back while I'm doing it

40:04

too. Like that's very different than this, which

40:06

is how can I do this thing that is required

40:09

of me? And that also might be helpful

40:11

in some capacity, but making it

40:13

something that's a little bit more enjoyable.

40:15

And there's some and a lot, there are nuggets in

40:17

a lot of the courses. Yes. And so

40:20

for me, I actually find like

40:22

the,

40:23

you know, a lot of us anyway, in

40:25

like academia, any job that you have,

40:27

you have to take like a sexual harassment course,

40:29

you have to take a child reporting

40:31

course. And so to me, I have

40:34

found doing that in community is like

40:36

doing a party, like having like a fun

40:39

party and doing that with my friends, like

40:41

we all have to watch it anyway. Right. So we all

40:43

press play. And sometimes

40:45

we're like, that is ridiculous. No, there's

40:47

always like these horrible illustrations. Right.

40:50

Like those images are always so bad or

40:52

the stock images.

40:53

Yes, it does make it better. So I

40:55

would say like, if you do that, like in community

40:57

as like, like, then you don't feel so

40:59

alone and you feel like, oh, it's our monthly thing that

41:01

we have to do for our PD for our professional

41:04

development. All right. Y'all meeting you. I

41:06

have house, I'm doing snacks and drinks.

41:08

Like, so how do you bring joy into

41:11

the things? And that helps you care

41:13

for yourself because care is not just doing

41:15

the Zen, doing the yoga, sleeping,

41:17

or those are all important. It's also like

41:20

laughing and being in community

41:22

and playing. That's also part of care

41:25

too.

41:59

more.

42:02

Keeping up with the flood of daily news can

42:04

be stressful. There's the upcoming 2024 presidential

42:07

election, our fragile planet,

42:10

and Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas

42:12

cruising around on a conservative billionaire's

42:14

yacht and more. I'm Treville

42:16

Anderson, host of Crooked Media's What a Day, a 20

42:19

minute podcast that breaks down the biggest news

42:21

stories of the day

42:22

in a way that hopefully

42:23

doesn't always make you want to cry. I'm

42:26

joined by my amazing co-hosts Priyanka

42:28

Arabendi, Juanita Toliver, and Josie

42:30

Duffy Rice. New episodes of What a Day

42:32

drop every weekday at 5 a.m. Eastern.

42:35

Listen and subscribe wherever you get

42:37

podcasts.

42:46

Our last question is from Weston, who got

42:49

out and he feels good about it, but

42:51

also kind of guilty. Our colleague Brian

42:53

is going to read this for us.

42:55

I am a 33 year old who recently left public

42:57

schools, first as an elementary school teacher, then

42:59

as an elementary school administrator. Tell

43:02

us all this time I was in my 20s, ready to

43:04

devote myself to this calling and being a millennial

43:06

with a mission,

43:07

ready to use my energy, my time, my heart

43:10

to do my best at any means necessary.

43:13

That is ridiculous. And as many currently

43:15

in their 30s, I found myself smack dab in the middle

43:17

of burnout. I've been lucky enough to transition

43:19

to a work from home role in the private sector that

43:21

I am decent at, can accomplish with little

43:23

stress and has really allowed me to better recenter

43:26

and rest and other interests while giving me

43:28

a chance to give back to the community in different non-work

43:31

ways. So my question is,

43:33

in short,

43:35

is that okay? Can I as someone

43:37

with smart, ambitious tendencies enjoy this

43:39

low stress, low responsibility time in my life or

43:41

should I view it as a recharge to find

43:43

my next big adventure? To be honest, I

43:45

feel driven towards the former in my current state, but feel

43:47

pressure from

43:48

whom I'm not sure to the

43:51

latter. All right. So

43:53

what is your initial reaction to this

43:55

one? Weston, live your best life. What's

43:58

so wrong with that? Like you

44:00

are still doing good work. You said you are.

44:03

Now you can do the work present,

44:06

rested, with low stress

44:08

in your community. You're still doing important

44:11

work. And then perhaps

44:13

in the future, there'll be a day where

44:15

you're like, you know what? I'm ready to return to

44:17

the classroom. You're gonna be a better

44:19

teacher. Why? Because you've had

44:21

that time to learn, to gain

44:24

new experiences, to gain new

44:26

skills, new time management

44:28

skills perhaps.

44:29

And also just a lived

44:32

experience is that

44:34

you can bring to the classroom. And

44:36

so I would say be open to what

44:38

the universe and

44:40

what the spirit will bring you to. But

44:43

now with this new job that you

44:45

have, you know

44:47

what is possible. You

44:49

know what low stress feels like. You

44:52

know what caring for yourself hopefully feels like.

44:54

And so moving forward, you will find a way to

44:57

prioritize that, to build that into your life, and

45:01

that's what you did when you walked away. And so I think

45:03

we have to see the lesson from walking away.

45:06

And you can walk back into something, but

45:09

haven't learned a ton that you can share with others. Because

45:13

one of the things that I think is important

45:15

too, is that we teach our young people through

45:18

modeling how we care for ourselves, but we also actually

45:21

teach them how to care for themselves. Not

45:24

only with our model, but with lessons

45:26

and with skill sharing, et cetera, et cetera. And

45:30

I do think that part of us learned our overwork at school.

45:34

We had homework to do, we had book

45:36

reports to do in the summer, we're supposed

45:39

to always be working. What happens

45:41

in education so that our adults,

45:43

when they're grown up, are not asking these

45:46

questions that are coming into

45:47

this podcast. Yeah, you know,

45:49

it's funny when I left teaching, people

45:52

all the time, especially people who were teachers, said,

45:54

don't you miss teaching? And absolutely,

45:56

I miss so much about the traditional

45:59

dynamic of art.

45:59

being in the classroom with students. But

46:02

also there are so many different ways to teach.

46:05

And I think for someone in Weston's

46:07

position, like,

46:09

there are so many ways to be an important person

46:11

in the lives of kids, some of them paid

46:13

and some of them unpaid. Right.

46:16

And actually, mentors in after

46:18

school programming and out of school programming,

46:20

those adults make huge differences in our

46:22

young people. So we're actually

46:25

asking ourselves a question is, why

46:27

are we asking, is it okay

46:29

for me to experience joy? Because that's what is

46:32

it okay for me to have low stress in

46:34

my life? Is it okay for me to

46:36

just breeze on by in this

46:38

job and get paid? Is it okay for me to

46:40

do work that's important to me, but on a volunteer

46:42

basis? We have to ask ourselves, why are we asking

46:45

those questions? And where does this pressure

46:47

cooker, like type rat waste

46:50

idea come from? And again, we have to think about

46:53

and really

46:54

reflect on and dig

46:56

apart how capitalism

46:59

has really made us sick. Yeah. And

47:01

have this asking these questions in the first

47:03

place. You know, I'm always struck by like

47:06

the whole Protestant work ethic of like, if some

47:08

for some reason you do not feel driven

47:10

to work all the time, that means it's

47:13

indicative of some inner sin.

47:15

When this other part of the Bible, this

47:17

Bible verse that always stuck with me, it was

47:19

like, be still and know that I am God, right?

47:22

Like be still. And when

47:24

you are still is when you will like figure out

47:26

and whether or not you're a Christian, like that

47:29

feeling of I can listen to myself, I

47:31

can hear myself when I am still.

47:34

And he's reaching this point right now, I

47:36

think,

47:37

where he's kind of figuring out what do I actually like?

47:39

Right? What do I actually want to do? What

47:42

are my motivations? Like that is an incredible

47:45

fertile moment. And the temptation

47:48

is to take that small piece and

47:50

to go back into those same patterns of

47:52

like,

47:53

Oh, now I know what I want to want to do. I get to repeat

47:55

the same thing all the way over again. Right?

47:58

A lot of the work that we have to

47:59

do is I'm learning. Yeah. And so how

48:02

do we learn the

48:04

desire to work, work, work? How do we

48:06

learn

48:08

connecting our worth to our

48:10

work? How do we learn

48:13

over work and over achievement?

48:16

Right. And so those are the things I'm

48:18

in the process of doing and reflecting

48:20

upon.

48:21

And how do we think about how do we

48:23

truly care for ourselves and

48:26

one another? That is our

48:28

work. And that's the work that I try to do each day.

48:30

And I work with educators and that's what we

48:32

focus on. We focus on building a

48:34

beloved community of care. And

48:37

I wish that for all educators that

48:40

and for all professions that they

48:43

can work and feel cared for. How

48:45

else are people going to think of you? Are you busy all

48:47

the time? Are you constantly like checking

48:50

your planner or are

48:51

you taking time to be with people? And

48:54

that includes kits. That includes people

48:57

that need care in so many different ways.

48:59

And I have to say for me, like

49:02

those are moments we have to actually stop

49:04

and reflect. Like I don't have

49:07

that much time with X, this person.

49:09

I don't have, I may not have this much time on

49:11

the earth. Right. So these, sometimes

49:15

the universe sends us these lessons

49:18

for us to care for ourselves. And

49:20

so for me, it's like,

49:22

where can we find those lessons, lessons

49:25

that don't have to hurt, right? Lessons that don't

49:27

have to include suffering or losing

49:29

someone or getting diagnosed with the chronic

49:32

illness. But like lessons when your little

49:34

one tells you, Mommy, I like when you hang

49:36

out with me. I like when you play with me. I

49:38

like to draw with you. Or when your

49:40

partner says, thank you, we had

49:42

a wonderful weekend. You know, those

49:44

are, those are the little lessons

49:46

and reminders of actually

49:49

what matters. Yeah.

49:51

That is a wonderful place for us to end.

49:53

If people want to find more

49:55

of you and your work on the internet, where can

49:57

they look? They can look on.

49:59

on my website,

50:02

www.denasimmons.com,

50:05

D-E-N-A-S-I-M-M-O-N-S.

50:07

I'm also on social media, on Instagram,

50:10

on Twitter, at Dena Simmons, and

50:13

also my work at Liberate

50:15

Ed. And so we have a Instagram

50:18

also, and Twitter on Instagram, at LiberateEd,

50:21

underscore S-E-L. But

50:23

yeah, just Google search me and you'll find

50:26

some things about me. And if you want

50:28

to contact me, my website

50:29

has that option too. But

50:32

one of the things that I would like to end

50:34

with is that part of our

50:36

work is the work of radical

50:38

love. And so part of

50:40

that love must include ourselves. And I'm

50:42

learning that, and I'm learning the same

50:45

way folks have asked these questions, I'm also,

50:47

I'm learning. I was raised similarly.

50:50

And so let's do this together.

50:52

Absolutely same. Working on that

50:54

too. We're there. Thank

50:57

you so much. This has been wonderful. Thank

50:59

you, take care. Wow. Wow.

51:02

Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

51:05

Wow. Wow. Wow.

51:07

Thanks for listening to Work Appropriate. If

51:09

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51:45

Appropriate is a Crooked Media production. I'm

51:48

Anne Helen Peterson, your host. Our

51:50

executive producer is Kendra James. Melody

51:52

Rowell is our producer and editor. Alson

51:55

Falsetta is our development producer. Music

51:57

is composed by Chanel Critchlow.

51:59

production support from Ari Schwartz and special

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thanks to Katie Long and Sarah

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Kiesmer. Bernad

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