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R.

0:37

Hi everyone, I'm Anne Helen Peterson

0:39

and this is Work Appropriate.

0:50

So I have to start with some bittersweet

0:52

news. This is our one-year anniversary

0:55

episode. We've done 50

0:58

amazing episodes on everything from

1:00

what to do about your fat phobic coworker

1:02

to how to handle a manager who only wants

1:04

to talk on the phone.

1:06

It's also our last episode. I

1:10

feel like I have learned so much from

1:12

my co-hosts, of course, but

1:14

also from the questions that have come into our inboxes.

1:18

We've given hundreds of you space to talk about

1:20

what's going on in your work world and hopefully

1:22

in a whole lot of cases to feel

1:25

validated that no, this

1:27

is not okay, this is not normal,

1:29

and you don't have to put up with it.

1:32

These conversations have made me think in more

1:34

nuanced ways about what's going on with work in this

1:36

moment

1:37

and I am just so, so grateful

1:40

to all of you listeners who made this show

1:42

what it was. And if you want to see

1:44

what Melanie and I are cooking up next, sign

1:47

up for my newsletter, anholland.substack.com,

1:50

or follow me on Instagram.

1:51

But for now, I'll set us

1:53

up for this episode the way I always have.

1:56

For this up, I wanted a person who's

1:58

listened to every

1:59

zone. Who's read every reader

2:02

question, who shaped every

2:04

part of what you hear every week.

2:06

And I found her, the perfect person.

2:12

My name is Melody Rowell. I'm a podcast

2:14

producer living in Kansas City, Missouri,

2:16

and I produce Work Appropriate. What

2:19

else do you do? You do other things. I do

2:21

other things.

2:22

I founded my own podcast production

2:24

company

2:24

called Yellow Armadillo Studios.

2:27

And I also produce and edit Strict

2:29

Scrutiny, which is part of the Crooked Media family.

2:32

And I have a handful of other clients

2:35

ranging from law schools to

2:37

some private practice doctors

2:40

in Alexandria, Virginia. And I consult

2:42

people on fixing their podcast problems,

2:45

getting started, kind of all of

2:47

the above.

2:48

And you and I have talked a lot about

2:51

your various bad jobs,

2:53

OK jobs, good jobs, just

2:56

so our listeners can know, because we're

2:58

going to go in and we're going to talk all

3:01

about what we've learned from listening to

3:03

these episodes from all of our guests, all of

3:05

this sort of thing. But what is

3:07

your work history? Like,

3:09

how did you get to where you are now?

3:11

It has been a journey.

3:13

And I feel like every time we wrap up an episode,

3:15

I have some anecdote of something

3:18

that was said that happened to me in one of my

3:20

jobs. Yeah.

3:22

So I graduated college not knowing

3:24

what I wanted to do. And I briefly thought I wanted

3:26

to go to law school. And then I worked at a law

3:29

office for

3:29

about two weeks. Well, I worked there

3:31

for longer. But after about two weeks there,

3:34

I was like, I can't do this. I'll die. So then

3:36

I moved to D.C. And I worked at

3:38

the Supreme Court for a Supreme Court Justice for

3:40

a couple of years. And while I was doing

3:42

that, I went to grad school and got a master's

3:45

in nonfiction writing, which then

3:47

led me to a job at National Geographic where

3:49

I was for a few years. But it was while

3:51

I was working there in print

3:53

and in digital media that I realized what

3:56

I actually wanted to do was make

3:58

the things that I was always listening to. to on

4:00

my commute. So I went to a program called

4:02

the Transom Story Workshop and learned how

4:04

to edit audio. Started freelancing

4:07

after that, did some public radio jobs,

4:10

moved to Kansas City for a public radio job that

4:13

ended during the pandemic. So I

4:15

started freelancing almost exactly

4:17

three years ago. So you've

4:19

had

4:20

different types of jobs. You've worked in

4:23

passion jobs and know like

4:25

the character of that and what that's like. And

4:27

then also, and this is I think important for our discussion,

4:31

you know what it's like to be a freelancer and

4:33

an independent contractor who

4:36

has like some solid relationships with

4:38

established companies, but is also like trying

4:40

to balance that feeling that

4:43

we'll talk about of like, what is

4:45

enough? So where

4:47

do we wanna go from here? This is our reflection episode.

4:50

We've done a year, we've learned so

4:51

much. I

4:53

feel

4:53

like we're just every week, we're like, oh,

4:56

are we gonna run out of episodes? And then there's like 700 new

4:58

episode ideas. Yeah, that's pretty

5:01

much all of our pitch meetings. So

5:02

I'm like, we've reached the end, we've answered all the

5:04

questions, we solved all the problems. And

5:06

then we have a pitch meeting, we have like 15

5:08

more episodes to book. But I

5:10

wanna hear from you first how

5:13

the past year has been

5:15

either different or surprising from

5:18

what you thought it would be.

5:19

Hmm, I just

5:20

feel like I've learned, I just keep

5:22

learning. You know, people sometimes ask like, how

5:25

did you learn about what's going on in the workplace?

5:27

Like, you know, especially when

5:30

wrote out of office, like how did you

5:32

learn about how businesses work? That sort of

5:34

thing. Like some of it is you just pay attention,

5:37

right? Like you read things and

5:39

you like, I've read a lot of Harvard

5:41

Business Review, right? Even though I didn't

5:43

go to business school. And I think

5:46

when you have a background like mine

5:49

that's in learning about history or learning

5:51

about culture, like it's easy to treat something like

5:54

the way that the office works as a text

5:56

that you can kind of dive into.

5:59

But the other thing that I...

5:59

really like that is my primary

6:02

source and should be everyone's

6:05

primary source is I just like talk to

6:07

a lot of people. I always want

6:09

to hear from my friends like oh how does this work

6:11

at your organization? So it's

6:14

like the texture of the conversations that I have like

6:16

in my my real life but then also

6:18

you know the conversations

6:20

that I have on Instagram and then all

6:23

of these questions that we get from

6:25

people right where you can just look

6:27

at the temperature of here's the

6:30

problem that is like you can look at it like

6:32

a month in the year and be

6:34

like here's the tension that is happening

6:36

in the workplace in this month because I feel like

6:39

when we first started soliciting questions 14

6:42

months ago, was it about 14 months ago? Yes.

6:45

There were still so many

6:48

questions about my workplace

6:51

can't decide if we're hybrid like

6:54

that that was really the primary focus

6:56

and then that began to shift over the course

6:58

of the next six months, eight months into

7:01

my workplace is either preparing for

7:03

layoffs or has we've had layoffs

7:06

or I'm scared we're going to have layoffs

7:09

and not felt really foundational and

7:12

then through it all we've still

7:14

had the like I used to like my job

7:16

or I like my job but it's unsustainable and I don't

7:19

know

7:19

what to do about that.

7:20

What have you seen and learned?

7:24

One of the themes that I've

7:26

been reflecting on is that idea of

7:28

talking to everybody you know about their job

7:31

and they're sort of a meme

7:34

right now on Instagram and TikTok that

7:36

like if somebody held a gun to your head you

7:38

could not describe what your sister or your best

7:40

friend does for work and I

7:43

think so many of the questions we

7:45

get could be solved

7:47

by people not doing that.

7:49

Like we get questions where people are like I don't even know what kind

7:52

of job is out there or even just the question

7:54

of like my boss is doing this

7:56

is this normal and so

7:58

often our advice is You need to talk to

8:00

the people around you, like your friends,

8:03

your neighbors.

8:04

That is your network. When people talk about

8:06

networking, it's not going to an event

8:09

and meeting strangers. With like, a can

8:11

of pays or something. Yeah. It's

8:13

like, I want us to

8:15

be, I mean, I hate to

8:18

use the buzzword intentional, but just to

8:20

be intentional about getting to know what our

8:23

friends and acquaintances actually do

8:26

for their job and not shine away from asking

8:28

the questions because it may seem gauche or you're

8:30

like, well, I don't want to reduce anybody

8:33

to what they do for work, but it is an important

8:35

part of our lives. And the only way we're going to learn

8:37

about what else is out there is to ask questions.

8:40

Yeah. You know, I think there's a real difference between

8:42

the very stereotypical

8:45

and I think reductive party

8:48

question that's like, what do you do? Right.

8:51

And then you don't like, you're like, oh, okay,

8:52

that's not what I do. But it's just a way to like,

8:55

I don't know, snap judgment.

8:57

And what do you do? And

8:59

then like a ton of follow up questions. You're like, oh, that's

9:01

so interesting. Like what kind of like,

9:04

how does your organization structure reviews?

9:06

You know, like you can talk about

9:08

your things. Yes. And

9:10

you can even, you know, if that feels awkward, just say,

9:13

can I

9:13

ask you a bunch of questions about your job? Yeah.

9:16

It doesn't, you don't have to frame it as networking. You

9:18

don't have to frame it as being like nosy and invasive.

9:21

Although sometimes that's where the good gossip is. Yeah.

9:24

But that was always the thing in DC. That's

9:26

the stereotype is when you meet someone, they either

9:28

say, what do you do or who do you work

9:30

for? And I remember when

9:33

I worked at the Supreme Court, I didn't really want

9:35

to offer that information to strangers, even though

9:37

I'm now offering it on a podcast at thousands

9:39

of people.

9:40

But so I would just kind of gloss

9:42

over it and be like, oh, I work for a federal judge

9:45

and try to make it sound really boring. But then they

9:47

would continue drilling down like, well, who? Well, what

9:49

do you do? Well, where is it?

9:52

That is one thing versus

9:54

getting to know how your friends spend

9:56

their days, I think is a valuable conversation.

9:59

Yeah, well, and I think that also contributes

10:02

to something that

10:04

I've learned over the course of the last year

10:07

when it comes to answering

10:10

listener questions, which is that

10:13

it's often easier to solve a conundrum

10:15

if you spend some time thinking

10:18

about why people are acting the way that

10:20

they're acting. Yes. Right?

10:22

So I oftentimes think of something that teacher

10:25

friends sometimes say, which is that if a

10:27

kid is acting out in class, they're

10:29

not acting out because they're like a quote unquote bad

10:32

kid, right? They're acting out because

10:34

there's something else going on. Right? And

10:36

so maybe that's something else is there's something happening

10:39

at school that makes things

10:42

hard and they are reacting to that

10:44

by acting out. And maybe there's something happening outside

10:46

of school. And how do you figure this out?

10:49

Maybe you talk to the parents, maybe that's not the

10:51

right avenue, but sometimes you just got to

10:54

talk to the kid. Right? And be like,

10:56

what's hard? When you get

10:58

to school, and sometimes it takes time to arrive

11:00

at that understanding

11:02

of what's actually going on in this person's life. So

11:05

how do you do this in the workplace when I think it's important

11:07

to actually, there are

11:10

things that people want to be private about and

11:12

that's okay. I think that there

11:14

are conversations that we can have and

11:17

lots of

11:17

our co-hosts have shown

11:20

us the ways that you can have them

11:22

just to ask an open

11:24

question. Not to do the kind of condescending

11:26

thing that's like, it seems like there's a lot

11:28

of stuff going on in your personal life. And

11:31

maybe we need to take a second, or maybe

11:34

we need to step back or you know what I mean? Don't

11:36

assume that you know that something is going on in their

11:38

personal life. It might not be their personal life.

11:41

It might be like there's a

11:43

lot of stuff going on in their national

11:45

life. Right? There's things

11:47

that are happening. So

11:51

sometimes just starting the conversation with like,

11:53

how are things actually going? Is there something that's

11:56

really difficult right now? Is there a stopping

11:58

point?

11:59

So you can better understand why

12:02

things are happening in a way that might

12:04

not be the way that they should be happening

12:07

two other things I've noticed about the

12:10

like why are people the way

12:12

that they are question is Everybody

12:15

is scared. Yeah, like

12:17

we I get that sense no

12:19

matter their position in the company They

12:22

are scared of saying something or doing

12:24

something that's going to get them immediately fired And

12:26

then they catastrophize into what that would mean

12:29

for the rest of their life Yeah And

12:31

I think you can have more compassionate conversations

12:33

with people that you work with if you're like we are all freaking

12:36

out on The inside and scared that this is gonna go wrong.

12:38

Yeah, and the other thing is I

12:40

get a Sense

12:43

that because everybody is scared it

12:45

is hard to trust people Yeah,

12:48

and again no matter your position like we have

12:50

had bosses Not

12:52

trust their employees because they're

12:54

not getting their work done or they're Calling

12:57

out sick all of the time, but they

13:00

are scared to say anything that might cost Somebody

13:03

their job and then on the other hand, you know We

13:05

have people who don't trust that their boss

13:08

is going to do the right thing for them and

13:10

they're scared that saying Something is gonna cost them their job.

13:12

And so it is just this

13:14

It's a mess

13:16

Right. Well, and I think that that points to

13:18

the fact that like, you know What I was

13:20

saying about how you just need to have a conversation That

13:23

that doesn't work if you are in an environment that

13:25

is not safe Right, like they

13:27

catch phrase is like, you know, what is

13:29

it? environmental safety emotional

13:32

safety psychological safety Right,

13:34

like whatever you want to call it. They

13:36

don't feel like they can actually

13:37

tell you what's going on Right and

13:40

if you have that conversation that is a sign

13:43

Totally

13:43

totally and so

13:46

like if that's the case

13:48

you have to zoom out Right and

13:51

this is a big theme that I think we've come to

13:53

again and again Like oh this interpersonal

13:55

problem that you're having is actually a symptom

13:58

of a much larger institutional

14:01

affliction. And

14:03

you need to figure out what that is. And that's

14:05

so much harder to deal with. So people just

14:07

avoid it. And it's but it's a contagion,

14:10

right? Like it's something that's going to affect every single

14:12

person who comes into this role.

14:14

Like if you are underpaying people, if

14:17

you are always lording the

14:19

threat of layoff stuff of people, like, it's

14:22

never going to be a good environment. So what

14:24

do you do? Yeah.

14:26

And that was ultimately, you know,

14:28

not to spill too much tea. But that was

14:31

why I had to

14:33

leave my last job was I sort

14:35

of just looking at the lay of the land and like,

14:38

everything I'm facing right now is an institutional

14:41

problem. Yeah, I don't think I have

14:44

it in me to wait around for it to be solved.

14:46

Yeah.

14:49

So I mean, I wrote a piece about this, when

14:51

those rolling layoffs were happening at

14:54

tech companies. Was that like in the winter?

14:56

I'm trying to think back on my brain. Layoff brain?

14:59

Yeah, layoff brain. That was the name of the piece.

15:01

And it was about seeing these

15:04

layoffs happen over the course of my time

15:06

in journalism, right? Like where

15:08

I used to work BuzzFeed News is that this intersection

15:11

of tech and journalism, two industries

15:13

that are incredibly precarious.

15:15

The difference being that if you get laid off in tech,

15:18

almost always, there are other jobs

15:20

there that you can eventually go find

15:22

journalism, not generally

15:25

the case, right? Like you can adapt

15:27

and find new skills and maybe

15:29

find a job somewhere else or like go into comms

15:32

or like there are other places that you can go

15:34

and find work, but it's not necessarily like, Oh,

15:36

I got laid off at this journalistic publication.

15:38

I'm just

15:38

going to go find another one.

15:40

Like it's just no, the jobs are just decreasing.

15:44

And it reminded me so much of my time

15:46

in academia, which also

15:48

so precarious. And I just was so tired. Like

15:52

so many other

15:54

people I know, so many listeners

15:56

to this show like you like

15:58

so tired of feeling like

15:59

The other shoe is always just about to drop.

16:02

And there's still precarity in freelancing,

16:05

but I feel more

16:05

in control of it. Yes,

16:07

absolutely. I say that all the time of there

16:11

is still stress in being your

16:13

own boss and in freelancing, but I

16:15

prefer that stress. I can handle

16:18

that stress. And I mean, you were saying

16:20

you were at the intersection of journalism and tech.

16:23

I was at the intersection of journalism and

16:25

nonprofit. So it was

16:27

lots of dysfunction with the feeling

16:29

of, I

16:32

should just be grateful to be there. And

16:35

I was supposed to be doing good in the

16:37

world and therefore be OK with not making any

16:39

money. And so I do remember

16:42

when I was looking to leave, I wasn't sure if I wanted

16:44

to freelancer look for something else. And I was just

16:46

reading job posting after job

16:48

posting and being like, man, these all

16:50

seem miserable. And then I was like,

16:52

it's not me.

16:54

It's the industry. It's the media.

16:56

These jobs are miserable. Well,

16:59

and this brings us, I think, to another theme,

17:02

which is that a lot of passion jobs are

17:04

unsustainable. But then when people get

17:06

into jobs that are just

17:09

J-O-B jobs, they're like,

17:12

well, who am I? What's

17:15

going on? I don't know how to grapple

17:17

with this. Where do I find meaning? And

17:20

I absolutely recognize that because

17:23

a lot of people, I

17:25

think, are really inculcated with

17:27

this idea that your job is your identity, especially

17:30

bourgeois parents and bourgeois kids

17:33

growing up in bourgeois environments

17:35

where you are trained to be

17:37

on this pathway to a career.

17:42

It makes sense that we identify

17:44

so strongly with what we do. Yes.

17:47

And that the career is the through line

17:50

of your life. Yes. And that everything

17:52

else is on the periphery

17:55

or is extracurricular and therefore not

17:57

that important. Yes.

17:59

And this brings us to you. the advice that

18:01

I think has really stuck with me and something that I

18:03

think I arrived at and have written a

18:05

little bit about like pre-work

18:08

appropriate and during the pandemic

18:10

but like so many

18:12

of

18:12

our co-hosts have responded

18:14

to questions like what

18:16

I'm describing that's sort of a fliction of like

18:19

I don't know who I am now that I'm working this

18:22

all the job I'm kind of bored I would

18:25

like what happened to my ambition and my challenge

18:27

like who am I

18:29

they've said

18:30

and I agree with this you have to have

18:32

something outside of your job that

18:35

helps give your life meaning yes and

18:38

I think some people that's kids some

18:42

people that's dogs caregiving

18:45

in other capacities like or

18:47

it can be a hobby right it can be and

18:50

hobby is such like a trivializing word because

18:52

I think that it's like it makes it

18:54

sound like you're just like going into a little

18:57

room and like totally around yeah

18:59

just like totally around instead of like oh

19:01

I have this other thing or

19:04

several other things in my life that

19:06

I just love to do I look forward

19:08

to it it makes me incredibly happy

19:11

and like gives

19:13

meaning to my life yeah

19:15

our episode on ambition with

19:18

rainford's offer was so eye-opening

19:20

for me in that way of like you don't have to be

19:22

ambitious about work because I've been feeling

19:24

that way for a while of like I am content

19:27

is that allowed is that okay should

19:29

I be striving to be like a girl boss

19:31

and open a studio and xyz

19:34

but that conversation I was like oh

19:37

I can be ambitious about my hobbies

19:38

and I can be ambitious about having

19:41

a lot of hobbies and that's not some kind of character

19:43

flaw and yeah I have because

19:45

of that like I've read like 85

19:47

books this year already yeah

19:49

yeah you're my fate one of my favorite

19:51

book reviewers I like anyone who

19:53

gives like honest book reviews meaning

19:56

that they're not scared to like give a book

19:58

less than a four stars Oh yeah.

20:01

Oh yeah. I've

20:02

read several books this year where

20:04

I'm like, this is literally the worst book I've ever

20:06

read. They keep like outdoing each other. But I

20:09

only get to enjoy that because I'm reading so

20:11

many other good books too, because my

20:14

ambition is currently reading.

20:16

Yeah. And my ambition, and I like,

20:18

this is just, I have kind of an obsessive personality.

20:22

My ambition is currently Dalia's. And

20:25

it's been so fun to,

20:28

instead of like spending the time

20:30

when I should be writing, agonizing

20:33

over how I'm not doing enough work, just like hanging

20:37

out in my Dalia spreadsheet. I

20:41

like that you still made it work like

20:43

in that there are, there's a spreadsheet. I

20:45

needed it organized.

20:46

Or like sheet

20:49

mulching my yard, which involves taking a

20:51

lot of compost and cardboard and killing your grass.

20:53

Oh yeah. So that I can plant more Dalia's.

20:56

But whatever the hobby

20:59

is, it helps decenter work

21:02

as like my only locus of

21:04

success, of pleasure. I just,

21:07

I spent so many years

21:11

rotating around that axis of work. Like

21:14

everything in my life rotated around that. And

21:16

now I still work a ton.

21:18

You and I both work a lot, but

21:21

I have decentered work. Like there are

21:23

many different axes that

21:25

I feel like are rotating

21:27

around me as a complete person or

21:29

as a more complete person

21:31

instead of like, I know

21:34

what it got. Not a work robot, you're

21:36

a person. Yeah. And I

21:38

understand why we become work robots.

21:40

You know, like that's my whole thing with millennial

21:43

burnout was like all of these

21:45

different pressures in our lives tell

21:46

us that

21:47

the only way for us to succeed

21:49

is to become a work robot. So

21:52

how do we figure out that that alternative?

21:55

And this, I think brings to another theme with so

21:57

many of

21:57

our, our co-hosts of

21:59

all.

21:59

emphasize which is that like sometimes

22:02

you have to stay in a job so how do you figure

22:04

that out how do you figure out how to make

22:07

it sustainable, copable,

22:08

any of those things

22:10

but also sometimes like this is your

22:12

life right this is the

22:14

rest of your life if there is any way for

22:17

you to start looking for that other job if your

22:19

job just makes your life miserable every day

22:23

you can do it and that might include

22:25

switching industries and that's harder advice

22:27

to hear right but sometimes I think

22:29

people write into the show because

22:32

they want to be given permission

22:33

to do it

22:35

they want somebody to say like yes this

22:37

is bad enough to

22:38

leave over yes

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25:02

What do you notice in the questions

25:04

that people send in? Because

25:06

it takes a particular sort of

25:08

problem to prompt someone

25:11

to like click on the link and

25:13

like submit a question, right?

25:16

So what do you see? Well,

25:18

there's that fear that I was talking about. There's

25:20

that desperation. There's also

25:23

this overwhelming feeling

25:26

of it's just as bad

25:28

everywhere else. And

25:30

that was also an experience I had to

25:32

go through. I think this was pre-pandemic.

25:36

And I did a poll on my Instagram

25:38

stories where I asked people, when

25:41

you wake up in the morning, are you dreading

25:43

going to work? And most people said

25:45

no. And I was like, oh, okay, that's

25:47

a bad sign for me. Next slide,

25:49

I asked, in the morning when you wake

25:51

up, are you excited to go to work? And

25:54

most people said no. And I

25:56

was like, wait, you can just feel kind

25:58

of like in between and neutral. And that's

26:00

like what most of my Instagram friends

26:02

feel. And so I think keeping

26:05

that in mind as a possibility of

26:07

what work could feel like, it doesn't

26:10

have to be the most miserable experience

26:12

of your life. And it doesn't have to be the most life-giving,

26:16

positive experience you've

26:18

ever had. Like you can look for something

26:20

that's in the middle.

26:22

Yeah. And I think that you're right, that people

26:24

write in either hoping that someone

26:26

like will talk

26:27

about,

26:29

you're right, it's this bad, like you just have

26:31

to stay where you are. Like there's a permission

26:33

structure that's built into a lot of

26:35

questions. Either they want to be told you have

26:38

to stay where you are.

26:40

And this isn't maybe the case with

26:42

like any advice. You know, I think of like Dear

26:44

Trudy or like there's just so many advice

26:46

columnists where like oftentimes

26:48

like a parent is writing

26:51

in and they want to be told what I'm

26:53

doing is okay. Or

26:56

what the other parent is doing is not okay. I

26:59

like it when especially a co-host can

27:01

look at a question and be like, here's

27:03

what I actually think is going on in this

27:07

question. And like, you know, we never know

27:09

all of the information or all of

27:11

the context. And so I think we do a good job

27:13

of acknowledging that while also saying,

27:17

you know, like on a recent episode that with

27:20

the Nightingales and about management, there

27:22

was a question about like this person

27:24

on my team always wants to call me and

27:26

I hate the phone and he wastes my time

27:28

on the phone.

27:30

And like my response is going to be like,

27:32

okay, you might have to figure out like how you can communicate

27:34

better and like reach a better like, you

27:37

know, halfway point and the Nightingales

27:39

were like, no, no, no, they

27:41

were like, he's lonely. He

27:43

has a different way that he reaches that

27:45

feeling of belonging in the office. And

27:48

so how do we create that feeling more

27:50

for this person? And

27:52

so I like it when we are able

27:55

to kind of talk about the bigger picture

27:57

instead of just like exactly

27:59

what we see on the screen.

27:59

page.

28:10

So

28:10

what have been some of your,

28:13

you know, the episodes are our children.

28:15

We can't choose a favorite, but what have been

28:17

some of your favorite moments or

28:20

questions that

28:22

we've experienced in the past year?

28:24

Okay, so I love the question

28:27

as a while back about someone

28:31

whose coworker

28:33

continually emailed as Fenway

28:35

the dog. That's also on

28:37

my list. That's probably my favorite question.

28:40

Although you always make fun of me because I

28:42

mistakenly call the dog Wrigley instead

28:44

of Fenway. You

28:46

can see how I would make up that. Totally. I

28:48

think that's a mistake. Another

28:51

favorite that

28:54

isn't funny because I think it's someone who's grappling

28:56

with mental illness, but I think that we dealt

28:58

with the question well with the person who,

29:00

the gardener who's working for a woman who

29:04

said that her coworker was possessed by

29:06

demons. Yes. Because

29:09

I think that that's something that people don't know

29:12

how to deal with, but it's like a very real thing.

29:14

And like, how do you talk about this in a way that like

29:17

doesn't stigmatize

29:19

this person, but this person is also

29:21

acting in a way that like it's not okay.

29:25

So that one sticks

29:27

out. I think it's from

29:29

that same episode, the one where

29:32

the woman had a tattoo that

29:34

just had some titties. And

29:37

she's like, I work for the, I work for

29:40

the government and they're like, I have to put a cover

29:42

up my tattoo. Is it

29:44

true that I have to cover this up? Later

29:48

this episode, I'm going to read you some updates

29:50

we got from listeners and we do

29:52

have an update on the titty tattoo. So get

29:55

excited for that. Okay.

29:56

So, and what were your favorites?

29:59

I also had Fenway the dog on

30:02

my list and I was really hoping we were

30:04

going to get an update from that listener but we

30:06

did not but if he is

30:08

listening like we are Begging you

30:10

to tell us what has happened

30:13

with the Fenway the dog emails um

30:15

I also I think this

30:18

is in this the same episode just the whole

30:20

episode we did with Liz Lenz

30:21

about people's wild co-workers

30:25

I

30:25

Just loved it because I feel like that whole

30:28

episode was just us Reading

30:30

scenarios and then you and Liz screaming

30:32

co-workers

30:35

who like clip their nails and I

30:38

think again one of the services we

30:40

provide on this podcast is to just validate

30:43

people that like yes This is not

30:45

work appropriate. Yes. This

30:47

is disgusting And yes,

30:50

you were right to be

30:50

incensed and irritated about this Yeah,

30:54

but speaking of things that are like inappropriate and

30:56

make people incensed one of my favorite moments And

30:58

I'm not gonna put this listener on blast. So

31:00

I'll just speak in generalities

31:04

Part of the process of what I do is

31:07

we get written questions in and then we

31:09

select which questions we're gonna answer in an episode And

31:11

then I reach out to the people who submitted

31:13

them and I ask for a voice memo

31:15

so we can play Their question

31:17

in the episode. So there's a little bit of back and forth

31:19

with the listeners This one person

31:22

I emailed them saying hey We've selected your question

31:24

and they said oh a lot

31:27

has happened Can I said an updated

31:29

version of

31:30

the question and I said yes and

31:32

the updated version of the question? Made

31:35

it clear that the question asker was

31:38

the villain

31:39

Like the first version of the question it was like,

31:41

oh, that's a tough situation the second version.

31:43

I was like, oh, you're actually the problem

31:46

so That I mean that's

31:48

just kind of added another

31:50

layer to every time I'm going through our

31:52

questions of like what's the other

31:54

side of the Story more context

31:56

more contact. Yeah, you

31:58

know, there are columns where

31:59

people talk to both

32:01

sides of a breakup

32:04

to get the different

32:06

perspectives. That would be so interesting

32:09

if we could ever do a worker and

32:11

their manager. It would never happen. People

32:14

are way too sensitive about this stuff. Yeah, again, everyone's

32:16

scared and nobody trusts anyone. But

32:19

yeah,

32:19

that was just fun and it felt like

32:21

I got my own personal little dose of gossip.

32:24

I don't even know if I really told you and the host

32:26

about that. Yeah, I don't think so. I'll tell

32:28

you offline. What else is memorable?

32:32

I

32:34

mean, like you were saying, the Nightingales are

32:36

just so good at seeing through the bullshit.

32:40

I think it was the first episode we had with

32:43

Melissa and you said

32:45

something like, well, obviously you

32:47

can't fire

32:47

them. And Melissa was like, why not? And

32:49

it was, again, just

32:54

this nice of like, oh, yeah, we

32:56

do a great job on this show of talking

32:58

about feelings and being anti-capitalist,

33:01

but also firing people is

33:03

a reality of the workplace.

33:05

And that's something that I

33:08

think it's my role to sometimes be

33:10

the person who is trying

33:11

to avoid

33:13

that sort of

33:15

more difficult situation

33:17

or harsher situation. And then the co-host

33:19

gets to be like, no, fire that person.

33:21

Or like, no,

33:24

you need to quit now. That sort of thing.

33:27

Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then get into

33:29

our listener updates. But first, I wanted to give you

33:31

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33:33

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34:02

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34:09

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34:11

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34:14

When their beloved dog is kidnapped, they have no

34:16

choice but to team up to pay his ransom.

34:19

Follow Anne and Jenny as they travel through hilarious

34:21

obstacles to get the cash the only way they

34:23

know how, getting Anne on her favorite game

34:26

show to win big. Quiz Lady, see the

34:28

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34:30

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34:49

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it suddenly sounds incredible. Ah,

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drink it in. And don't worry, that holiday

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35:01

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35:09

Alright, should we get into these listener updates?

35:12

Yeah, I have so many updates

35:14

for you.

35:15

Oh my gosh. When you told me that

35:17

you had so many updates, I was like, this is amazing.

35:20

I'm kind of nervous though too.

35:23

So what if we gave bad advice?

35:25

I think if we did,

35:27

nobody was going to tell us. I

35:29

sent an email to everybody who's had a question

35:32

featured on the show. At least I think it

35:34

was everybody. If you're listening and you're like, I had

35:36

a question, I didn't get an email, I'm very sorry, but it

35:38

was a lot of emails. And I

35:41

asked people for updates

35:43

of what has happened since we answered your question. And

35:46

so I got a lot

35:48

of answers and I don't, we don't have time to go through

35:50

all of them,

35:50

I have a lot of them to

35:52

share with you. And I've divided them

35:55

into

35:55

two categories also

35:58

for the

35:59

listener.

35:59

I told Ann that I was

36:02

not gonna let her see these ahead of time. So

36:04

these reacts are 100% real. These

36:07

are real.

36:08

Okay, so the first category is

36:10

where are they now? Okay. These

36:12

are people who wrote to us about

36:14

the sort of existential questions

36:17

of whether to stay at their job or move

36:19

on or what to do about job.

36:23

So

36:23

the first update I want to share

36:26

is because I am personally

36:27

very excited about this one.

36:30

This update comes from somebody who wrote

36:32

in for episode that we did with

36:34

Ailsa Chang called Is It Too Late

36:36

to Start Over? And you

36:38

probably remember this person. They were wondering

36:41

about quitting their job to open a bookstore.

36:44

But they asked, is that a recipe to hate

36:46

books in 15 years? And this

36:48

is how Ailsa responded. Do not approach

36:51

the universe with this expectation that you

36:53

are not supposed to ever, ever, ever

36:55

hate your job. Especially like if

36:58

the outlook is 15 years. That's a really long

37:00

time. Oh my god, do books for 15 years.

37:02

And if you hate it, if it really comes true that you hate

37:04

it after a decade and a half,

37:05

that's a good run. So this

37:08

listener has given us an update.

37:10

I quit my political consulting job effective

37:13

next Friday.

37:14

Tropes and trifles, a romance

37:16

themed bookstore, has been doing online

37:18

sales and pop-ups in Minneapolis since

37:21

mid-August. My business partner

37:23

and I are looking for space and hope to open

37:25

a storefront in early 2024. Owning

37:28

a bookstore is hard, especially in the current

37:30

retail landscape. But I am encouraged

37:32

by the strong and supportive community we've built

37:34

over the past few months.

37:36

Tropes and trifles? Tropes

37:39

and trifles! Minneapolis! I am

37:41

a huge romance reader and so I actually...

37:43

And I'm a Minnesotan, so it works

37:45

out. You are? Originally. Yeah, I was born in Minnesota.

37:48

I didn't know that. Yeah. Stop.

37:50

Wow! Yeah,

37:53

I know that this store already has a

37:55

presence on Instagram because I've been following

37:57

them. So I was so excited to get this

37:59

update. Go

38:01

follow anyone who's listening. Go follow

38:03

them. Just be part

38:04

of this person's success. We need more romance

38:06

only bookstores. Yes.

38:09

Okay, give me another update. So our next update

38:11

is from the episode

38:13

we did on academia with Dominique Baker. And

38:15

we didn't play this question directly,

38:18

but you used it to set

38:19

up a conversation about why

38:22

institutions don't fix their

38:24

retention problems. And they just stay

38:26

in this cycle of people

38:29

leaving and rehiring and people leaving

38:31

and rehiring. So here

38:33

is the update that we got from the person

38:35

who originally said in that question. Of

38:39

the 10 people of color working in my academic

38:41

library out of about 50 people,

38:44

three remain.

38:46

Admins sent out an emergency

38:48

email saying they'd put together a task force

38:50

to address the BIPOC retention issue. I'm

38:53

sure of whether that actually happened or not because

38:55

I also left.

38:58

Good for this person. Yeah,

39:00

good for them. Good

39:02

for this person. They got out of the cycle and I hope

39:04

they didn't say anything about what they're doing now,

39:07

but I hope it's an improvement. Yeah.

39:09

So another question about quitting

39:12

from our episode on whether or not you should

39:14

leave your job. I think we called it is this relationship

39:16

over with Jane

39:17

Coaston? Yep.

39:19

Elsa wrote in saying that she had recently

39:21

returned to work after

39:22

maternity leave and she was so

39:25

bored, but switching jobs

39:27

while being a new mom seemed way too

39:29

risky. So

39:30

she wrote in,

39:32

I laughed when I listened to my question. I

39:34

submitted the question a year ago and

39:36

so much has changed.

39:38

I'm no longer bored.

39:39

I'm still at the same company and my workload

39:41

has increased to the point where I'm completely

39:44

overwhelmed and burnt out. When I returned

39:46

from maternity leave, it was like my new manager

39:48

didn't know what the point of my role was and

39:50

it took around six months for my skills to be

39:52

valued again. So this year I've been highly

39:55

involved in a major project at work. I've

39:57

been promoted and now have a team working under

39:59

me. My workload has increased so

40:01

much that I've actually had to turn down another

40:03

promotion opportunity and have also

40:06

asked to reduce my work schedule to part-time.

40:09

When I was bored at work, I felt guilty for

40:11

wasting my days doing nothing when I could have been

40:13

home with my child. But when my workload

40:15

increased, the guilt didn't go away.

40:17

It got worse.

40:18

I realize that working full-time

40:20

isn't what I want to be doing. My ambition

40:22

has been reduced since becoming

40:24

a mom and I just want a lazy girl

40:26

job. I don't want to be bored, but I

40:29

don't want to be overworked and overwhelmed either. I

40:31

just want a part-time job that is stimulating

40:33

for 24 hours a week and no more. I'm

40:36

hoping that this year I can find the right

40:38

balance between work and home life.

40:42

I mean, that's such a good one because it's

40:44

like,

40:45

it just does seem like there is no happy

40:48

medium, right? Because,

40:50

especially because the way that the U.S. workforce

40:52

is set up, there's just so few opportunities

40:55

for truly part-time work, right? There

40:57

are jobs where you work part-time hours,

40:59

but actually work

41:00

a full job. And

41:02

that's what this person wants. And that's

41:04

such a great, like if you can financially swing

41:06

it, it's like a great

41:08

place to be. So I hope that

41:10

she is able to find it.

41:12

I also like that it's

41:14

a representation of the more philosophical

41:16

idea of today is not always.

41:20

And when she wrote to us, she was so

41:22

bored and she thought her only option

41:24

was quitting. But the situation

41:26

that unfolded was much more complicated than that.

41:29

Okay, this is an update

41:32

from

41:33

somebody who had recently switched jobs

41:36

when they wrote to us. This is from the episode,

41:39

My Job Traumatized Me, Now

41:41

What, that we did with psychologist Hamad

41:43

Encho. And we had gotten

41:45

a question from a nurse named Liz who

41:48

was regretting switching jobs because she

41:50

had really bonded with her coworkers during

41:52

COVID. So

41:54

here's what she says. sometimes,

42:00

but I'm able to move on pretty well. I

42:03

increased my Alexa Pro by half a milligram

42:05

and I'm going to therapy mostly to talk through

42:07

work-related issues. I have a much more

42:10

chill floor and most of my patients are

42:12

lovely humans. We had a lot of new

42:14

hires who are creating a solid supportive

42:16

group of night shift nurses. Our

42:19

union just got us a new contract with staffing

42:21

ratio protections and a 27% raise

42:24

over three years. I'm so glad

42:26

I didn't go back to my old job. I never

42:29

get sexually harassed on this new floor and my

42:31

husband says I am much less angry about

42:33

work. I still miss my friends from my old

42:35

job but I see them and talk to them occasionally.

42:37

So

42:38

I love this for so many reasons and part

42:40

of it is like an acknowledgement of

42:43

how integrated our jobs are in

42:45

our mental health. Like you

42:47

can't just be like

42:48

oh if I get a new job it's gonna fix everything.

42:51

Like she's like I also am going to therapy

42:53

and I like I changed my meds. Like

42:56

there are a lot of things that if your job

42:58

has traumatized you as this person's job

43:00

had that you have to grapple with in the aftermath

43:03

and I'm just happy for her. It seems like she

43:05

has a really good situation.

43:06

Yeah and I think

43:08

it's a situation she couldn't have imagined when

43:10

she first wrote to us so that one

43:13

made me really happy. Our

43:14

next update is from someone who's question

43:16

we featured pretty recently. This

43:19

was in our episode about feeling

43:21

stuck that we did with Josh Gondelman

43:25

and this was a really heart-wrenching

43:27

question we got where they said

43:29

it felt like everything was going wrong. They fucked

43:32

up their whole life by having this job

43:35

and yes they were in therapy but they cry all

43:37

the time and just

43:39

they were basically just looking

43:40

for some hope.

43:41

Yeah. So here's their update. It's

43:44

only been about a month since the episode aired so

43:46

I'm still in my current role. However

43:48

the great advice from Ann and Josh made

43:50

me laugh and cry in a good way and

43:52

inspired me to keep

43:53

digging even if I only have a spoon.

43:56

I love the Shawshank Redemption analogy.

43:59

With you are not not a stuck person

44:01

as my new mantra, I'm taking steps

44:03

to move forward. I'm updating my portfolio

44:06

and using my friends and network to find

44:07

other opportunities and open some doors.

44:10

Oh, that was

44:12

all Josh saying, you know, digging with this

44:14

food. And

44:15

you are not a stuck person.

44:17

Yeah. Yeah. You know, sometimes

44:19

when it's only been a month since when we,

44:21

we like heard from them, there's not a lot

44:23

of opportunity for change, but I love to

44:26

hear that our response made them laugh

44:28

and cry. Right. Yeah. Like that's

44:30

what I always hope when we answer a question

44:32

is that this person feels like we see

44:34

them. Like I know that sounds

44:36

cheesy, but like the thing

44:39

that we often say, especially for

44:41

difficult situations, it's like this is really

44:43

hard.

44:45

And we need to acknowledge that first

44:47

and foremost is that like the situation that you

44:49

find yourself in like this is really hard.

44:52

I don't know if we say that enough. Yeah. You

44:54

know, just kind of acknowledging that.

44:57

And I remembered now that part of their

44:59

original question was they had been trying

45:01

to get a new job for like two years

45:03

and it had something like a hundred

45:06

interviews and they were always tailoring

45:08

their resume and their cover letter. And so

45:10

I can totally see

45:11

how that starts to weigh

45:13

on you and make you think there's something wrong with you.

45:16

And so I'm glad that you and Josh

45:18

were able to help them see

45:20

that that is just not the case. Yeah.

45:22

Okay. So our next update

45:25

is not really a happy one, but

45:27

I think it's important for us to talk about.

45:30

Yeah. The

45:30

original question was in

45:32

our episode about setting boundaries with Stephanie

45:35

Nadi Olson, but it could have also

45:37

fit into our episodes about how to care less

45:40

about your job and making caring

45:42

professions

45:42

sustainable. This was the

45:45

teacher

45:45

in a small town who didn't want to

45:47

give her phone number out publicly

45:50

and her update makes me understand

45:52

why. So here's what she says.

45:55

Two of the colleagues in my department were put on

45:57

administrative leave within the first four weeks.

45:59

of the school year. About a third of

46:02

the staff are long-term subs with no

46:04

education background. Instead of coaching

46:06

people up, they let them flounder. One

46:08

of the teachers had to make lesson plans for every

46:11

ninth grade class in our department because

46:13

she was the only one left teaching that class

46:16

still on staff. She told me she wanted

46:18

to kill herself

46:18

about three weeks ago. So

46:20

to answer your question, it's not going

46:22

well with caring less. I feel like I

46:24

am one of the few teachers left who actually

46:26

has a voice because I have been there since dirt

46:28

and I know where the bodies are buried. So

46:30

I try to speak up for my colleagues and my students

46:33

when I can because this is absolutely

46:35

unsustainable for everyone, admin

46:37

included. Some days I can walk

46:39

out and shrug my shoulders and say it's not

46:41

my circus, but when I go back the next day

46:43

it absolutely is my circus. So

46:46

I just put off the caring for another

46:48

day. I am trying to minimize my rage,

46:50

but it's not easy. I have four years

46:52

until I am fully vested in our state retirement

46:55

and it's touch and go if I will make it.

46:56

Maybe I'll be the next teacher who walks

46:59

out.

46:59

I mean this is just so

47:02

hard because it is like

47:04

it's such a familiar story to me

47:06

just like with other people that

47:08

I know who are doing that

47:11

work, who have left that work

47:13

and it's scarring. Right?

47:17

Like I absolutely understand why she wants

47:19

to wait out those four years,

47:22

but like

47:23

it's really hard to recover from. I feel

47:26

like this could it could have also been a question

47:28

and like my job traumatized me. Yeah. Right?

47:31

You know? Yeah. And

47:34

I just I

47:36

really feel for this person and I

47:38

feel for any other educators who

47:41

are feeling similarly and

47:43

it really really fucking sucks. Yeah.

47:46

I think it's also a good illustration

47:48

of sometimes our questions

47:51

are interpersonal. Sometimes our questions

47:53

are like know your company is dysfunctional

47:56

and this is like the entire

47:57

nation. is

48:01

ruining this person's life. And

48:04

like, yeah, so, you

48:07

know, she's doing the best that she can,

48:09

but it's really not fair

48:11

that this is being asked of her and of everybody

48:13

in,

48:14

everybody in public education. Yeah.

48:17

Okay.

48:18

Our second half of listener updates

48:20

I have for you are about situations

48:23

that were within work that were not

48:25

necessarily as existential, but still

48:27

needed to be dealt with. And

48:29

for our first update, we are going to go all the

48:31

way back to our very first episode, Big

48:34

Office Feelings with Josh Gondelman.

48:37

And it is from the person who wrote

48:39

in Cranky About Gifts

48:42

from Work. Do you remember this

48:44

conversation? Yeah. So this person

48:46

has an update. They say, I've

48:48

noticed my work has moved to more food-related

48:51

gifts, so they'll likely be used over some

48:53

dust collecting Chachki. And

48:55

more excitingly,

48:56

we don't give anniversary gifts now,

48:59

but as a thank you to their commitment to the organization,

49:02

after every five years of employment,

49:04

staff are eligible for a six-week

49:07

paid sabbatical. I am thrilled

49:09

with this. The greatest gift is time.

49:11

Amazing. Yeah. Oh my

49:14

gosh. Wasn't this the person, maybe this just

49:16

like

49:16

sparked a conversation that I had on my Instagram where

49:18

someone wrote

49:19

in to say that

49:20

their boss gave

49:22

them the gift of mugs

49:25

with their face, the boss's face

49:27

on vacation? This is not the

49:29

same listener, but that is something

49:31

that we did talk about. But yeah,

49:33

going from like useless crap

49:36

to a long ass vacation, that

49:38

is like the ultimate

49:40

workplace glow up. Yeah.

49:43

Someone's listening. Do you think that they

49:45

listen to Work Appropriate? I hope so. Wow.

49:48

Sabbatical is the best gift. Yeah. Anybody

49:51

who's listening now, people want

49:53

time off. That is the gift they want. Yeah. And

49:56

time off, that's not like, oh, it's unlimited. Take

49:58

it if you want to.

49:59

force time off, structured

50:02

time off, time off that is conceived

50:04

of as something that you earn because you do this

50:06

job, like give it. That's wonderful

50:09

news.

50:11

Okay so I have two updates

50:13

from the episode we did called This

50:15

is Awkward with Virginia Soul Smith

50:19

where people were just like, I don't know how to

50:21

deal with this situation. Okay

50:23

so the

50:23

first update is from a person who said their co-worker

50:26

was really rude in emails and

50:29

I just want to revisit how you

50:31

and Virginia initially reacted.

50:33

I want to see the emails because my guess

50:35

is that she's probably just like using periods instead

50:38

of exclamation points. Or no punctuation

50:40

is another common, you

50:42

know, like misstep. I think email

50:45

is the land of misinterpreted tone and

50:47

she may not hate you like

50:49

at all. She just has no idea how she's

50:50

coming across. So

50:52

here's the update.

50:53

I submitted the question about having a colleague

50:56

write very rude and disrespectful emails.

50:59

It was not just her using correct

51:01

punctuation and direct language. After

51:03

hearing your response I realized that I was

51:05

taking her emails personally but not

51:08

because of her direct language but because of

51:10

her inability to do her job. She

51:12

often put things off,

51:13

didn't see emails, or misplaced

51:16

important documents that she would then claim

51:18

were never given to her. Once

51:21

she replied to an

51:21

email about my work phone not having

51:24

texting capabilities by saying, try

51:26

this? I responded

51:29

by saying, hello, was there meant to be something

51:31

attached to the email or did you just

51:33

want me to try texting again? Thanks.

51:36

To which she

51:37

responded, nothing attached,

51:40

just try.

51:44

Which like should be a t-shirt.

51:48

It was things like this that became frustrating.

51:50

She spoke to me as if I was stupid or missing

51:53

something but she often wasn't doing her job

51:55

correctly. I did bring it up to my

51:57

supervisor because I felt like I was going crazy.

51:59

She told me to just make sure I have copies

52:02

of everything I submit, stay organized,

52:04

and follow up. I felt frustrated because

52:06

I should not have to be managing someone

52:08

outside of my department. However, it was

52:10

really all I could do. Thankfully,

52:12

shortly after that, she

52:14

gave her notice and has left the organization.

52:17

Yay! The new person in her role

52:19

has been more organized and less condescending.

52:22

Win-win all around. I appreciate

52:24

you helping me reflect on the fact that it wasn't

52:27

so much about her emails, but it was

52:29

more about how she did or didn't do her

52:31

work.

52:32

Amazing! Wow! I love it!

52:36

I just love when our answer

52:38

misses the point and they're like, oh,

52:41

if they're responding this way, then I'm

52:43

not actually identifying the problem.

52:46

So I need to rethink what is the

52:48

question that I'm actually asking. It

52:50

was all of these things she's outlining here,

52:53

which is

52:53

all of this very weird behavior, or at least

52:55

like, I don't know, incompetent

52:58

behavior in some capacity.

52:59

And then she wins by not having to deal

53:01

with it. Just like, give notice.

53:03

Yeah. Amazing. I love

53:04

how that works out. Can you imagine her feeling when

53:06

she opened up the email and saw that this person gave

53:09

notice? I'm imagining that just

53:11

from the office where everybody's like spraying champagne

53:13

and jumping around. Because

53:16

there's no way she was like the only victim of this

53:18

person's email. Yeah. No, no, no, no.

53:21

So we have another update from the same episode.

53:24

This one was from a non-binary

53:26

and gender non-conforming person whose

53:29

co-workers often called them young lady

53:32

and said things like, I don't understand

53:34

non-binary or it doesn't exist.

53:38

And they were like, I really don't know how to handle this because

53:40

I'm the only openly genderqueer person

53:42

at the office. Right. Here's their update. I

53:45

never brought up how this colleague's comment affected

53:47

me. There wasn't ever a good opportunity and

53:49

I still didn't know how to approach her or anyone

53:51

else about it.

53:53

Unrelated to this circumstance, but perhaps

53:55

it was a subconscious motivation. I applied

53:57

to transfer to a different department

53:59

at the University of California.

53:59

At my

54:01

new department, I work with other openly

54:03

clear and non-binary colleagues,

54:04

and the whole staff has been very normal

54:07

in accepting of pronouns

54:08

and gender identity. I'm

54:10

much happier that I work in a department where having

54:12

they them pronouns is respected, among

54:15

all the other reasons I applied for this transfer. Thank

54:18

you for taking the time to read my question and

54:20

for your kind response and validation of how awkward

54:22

and bad that situation was.

54:24

Yeah, I remember this question and

54:26

I remember our advice was like, you do not have the

54:28

responsibility to educate this person, like

54:30

you are not, this is not your job, right?

54:34

And like, you should talk to the manager, HR department,

54:36

like there's so many other people whose responsibility

54:38

it actually is. It shouldn't be

54:40

beholden on you in this power

54:43

relationship to do that. So I'm so

54:45

glad that they are now in a department

54:48

where they don't have to do that work at all. Yeah.

54:51

Right? That's

54:53

so great. Yeah. So happy about that

54:55

one.

54:55

Okay, now is the time

54:57

for the titty tattoo update. Okay,

54:59

okay, okay. So this was the titular

55:02

question. Titular

55:05

from

55:05

our episode with Greta Johnson.

55:08

And here is the update.

55:10

Since being told I had to cover up the tattoo,

55:13

I have been using band-aids to cover it up.

55:15

I have forgotten on a few occasions and had my

55:17

supervisor nag me to remember to cover

55:20

up. I have recently made an appointment to

55:22

get a partial cover up with the original artist

55:24

so I

55:24

don't have to worry about it anymore. I'm also

55:26

looking for new jobs since I can't stand my supervisor

55:29

anymore.

55:29

I mean, here's the thing. If

55:31

your supervisor is nagging

55:33

you about your like subtle

55:36

titties and your tattoo, that supervisor

55:39

has something else going on. Yeah.

55:41

Right? Yeah. First of all, the supervisor

55:44

needs to grow up.

55:44

And I'm like kind of

55:47

sad that they're getting it covered up.

55:50

I mean, I hope they like it, but... Yeah.

55:53

Maybe wait and see if you get another job before you

55:55

cover it up. And it's colder weather

55:58

so maybe we just do long sleeves for a long time.

55:59

little bit.

56:01

But don't cover up your joy. Don't

56:03

cover up your titties. Free

56:06

the titties. But also

56:09

like do whatever you need to do in this capitalist

56:11

hellscape, which is one of our recurring things. Yeah,

56:13

do what you need to do and also like I bet your tattoo is really

56:15

sick. Also, we still want

56:17

to see a picture of it if you want to send it to us.

56:20

Workappropriate at crooked.com.

56:22

But I think that

56:23

we agree your supervisor is not

56:26

the greatest. Yeah,

56:28

I like to imagine that this

56:30

person will find

56:31

a job where

56:32

they are fully accepted for who they are. And

56:34

then in one of their like lunchtime conversations,

56:37

someone is like, why did you leave your last job?

56:39

And they'll just show them the tattoo.

56:41

So

56:44

you'll find your people. Yeah,

56:46

you'll find the tittie tattoo

56:48

appreciators. Yeah,

56:50

I mean, we are legion.

56:52

Okay, so we have one last

56:54

update. All right.

56:55

And this is from the episode we did with Liz Lenz

56:58

that I was talking about earlier about just like, what

57:00

the fuck situations that work. And

57:03

we had so many what

57:04

the fuck questions that we had to

57:06

do a rapid fire segment. Oh,

57:08

yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. One of the

57:10

questions was that the women's bathroom

57:13

didn't have any trash bins in the stalls. Remember

57:16

this? And they had been asking

57:18

for a year for this to happen.

57:21

And Liz was like, you steal

57:23

trash cans from the men's bathroom and put

57:25

them in the women's bathroom. So

57:27

here is her update. We got

57:30

trash cans installed in the bathroom.

57:32

The men's room didn't have trash cans to steal.

57:34

It only had the ones built into the wall under

57:37

the paper towels.

57:38

So I sent an email to the facilities manager.

57:40

There's nothing quite like saying bloody

57:43

pads and tampons, clogging toilets

57:45

or dripping on the floors

57:46

to a middle aged straight light man because

57:48

the trash cans got ordered and installed

57:51

within two weeks after the email was sent. It

57:53

only took a year and a half from

57:55

start to finish.

57:57

But you know

57:59

what, sometimes you just

57:59

You just gotta say, bloody pads and tampons, right?

58:02

You just gotta, you can't use euphemisms. You

58:05

can't use blue liquid, and like, you know,

58:07

they do in the commercials. Like, you just gotta be like,

58:10

this is what we're dealing with. This

58:13

is the reality. This is the level

58:15

of seriousness of this need.

58:17

Blood.

58:18

That we don't

58:20

wanna carry out of the bathroom. So,

58:24

I am thrilled for this workplace. And

58:26

I just feel like

58:27

this is the right one to end on, because like,

58:29

this is our legacy. Like, if we cannot

58:32

solve institutional

58:35

systematic problems plaguing the entirety

58:38

of the American workforce, we can encourage

58:40

somebody to get the trash cans.

58:44

You said it. I mean, you said the good thing.

58:47

Like, this is why, and I just wanna say at

58:49

our closing that like, this podcast is

58:52

what it is because of the incredible

58:54

work that you do, both behind the scenes

58:56

in terms of like, communicating

58:58

with people who are question-askers and our guests,

59:00

and then also the work that you do to make us

59:03

sound,

59:04

you know, smart, and like, we're not using

59:06

weird sentences. This is what I always tell guests at the beginning

59:08

of the show, is that Melody will make

59:10

us sound really smart, and you do, so

59:12

thank you for that. Well, you give me all

59:14

the good content to work with. There's

59:16

no one else I'd want to work with on this

59:18

show than you.

59:19

Here's to what we're cooking up next.

59:22

Here's yours.

59:31

For one last time, thank you for listening

59:33

to Work Appropriate. It has been my total

59:35

pleasure hosting

59:36

this show, and I am so

59:38

grateful for you. I set out to make

59:40

Work Appropriate to take conversations I've been having

59:42

online into a podcast where we could

59:44

have extended important, nuanced

59:46

conversations

59:47

about the workplace.

59:48

In the experience of connecting with experts, friends,

59:51

listeners like you, all of this

59:52

was so great.

59:54

And if you wanna keep in touch and hear about what's next, particularly

59:57

in the podcast arena, head to AnneHelen.

1:00:00

and sign up for my newsletter, Culture Study. You

1:00:03

can also follow me on Instagram at Anne Helen

1:00:05

Peterson. Work Appropriate is

1:00:07

a Crooked Media production. I'm Anne

1:00:09

Helen Peterson, your host. Our

1:00:12

executive producer is Kendra James. Melody

1:00:14

Rall is our producer and editor. Alison

1:00:17

Palsetta is our development producer. Music

1:00:19

is composed by Chanel Critchlow. Additional

1:00:22

production support

1:00:23

from Ari Schwartz. And special thanks

1:00:25

to Katie Long and Sarah Geisner.

1:00:41

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