1:59

The job application dance

2:02

is just so much more complicated

2:04

and prolonged. There's more interviews, like

2:06

a lot more interviews, more

2:08

interviews than you could possibly imagine just

2:11

for one job. And then the spread

2:13

of remote work also means that there's a lot more

2:15

jobs to apply to and a

2:17

lot more people in the applicant

2:20

pool.

2:21

We've done episodes in the past on switching industries,

2:25

but we wanted to have an entire episode dedicated

2:27

to the slog

2:28

of job searching today. And

2:30

we knew exactly which co-host to ask

2:33

back to help us.

2:38

My name is Phoebe Gavin. I'm a career and

2:40

leadership coach helping ambitious professionals

2:42

build successful fulfilling careers without

2:44

sacrificing work-life balance.

2:46

And everyone, you should go back and listen

2:49

to the other episode that we had Phoebe on because

2:51

she is fantastic and listeners

2:53

loved her and we're so grateful to have her

2:55

back today. Let's talk about how

2:58

you figured out all of the nitty-gritty

3:01

of job searching for yourself. Like how

3:03

did you get to the point where you're like, I

3:05

can help other people do this.

3:07

I had a mentor and it was

3:09

actually incredibly important for me to have

3:11

a mentor very very early in my career.

3:14

So I come from a low-income background. I joined

3:16

the military out of college. My mom is

3:18

a cleaner. My dad is a plumber. There are no white college

3:20

professionals in my immediate family. And

3:22

so I joined the military to pay for college. And

3:25

then once I got out of the military,

3:27

I was dealing with sort of PTSD

3:30

from that also in school, also

3:32

trying to figure out how do I do this like internship

3:35

thing at these like corporate companies?

3:37

Do I need to wear a suit and all of that? And

3:40

the career center at my college was really

3:42

important. And also

3:45

I was volunteering with a veterans organization

3:47

that had also had a career support

3:50

program. And because I was volunteering with

3:52

them, I had more access to them than

3:54

their members normally would. And I ended up building

3:56

a strong relationship with one of their program managers

3:59

who became my mentor. And not only

4:01

did he save my life, because I was really struggling

4:04

mentally, he also set me up to

4:06

be much more successful than I

4:08

would have been if I would have just

4:10

sort of figured it out on my own as a first

4:13

generation knowledge professional. And

4:15

that was so important for me that

4:18

it became really central

4:20

to my vision

4:22

for myself was to always find ways to

4:25

help other people grow as I was

4:27

growing. And then early in my career, I didn't look

4:29

like very much, but as I built my

4:31

career, got more support

4:34

and more knowledge from

4:36

other mentors, including the original one,

4:39

and started building my own career and starting to hire

4:41

for myself and making strategic decisions on

4:43

behalf of organizations for myself. I was

4:45

always looking for opportunities to support

4:48

people in that way. And so mentorship was

4:50

extraordinarily important, but also being proactive.

4:53

And I was a mega Googler trying to ask every

4:55

single question, trying to figure everything out. So

4:58

it was about mentorship and being really

5:00

proactive about research.

5:01

I feel like sometimes job searchers,

5:04

and I understand why this is, there's a

5:06

bit of pride

5:07

where people don't want to use

5:10

the structures that are available to them, either

5:12

in the form of career

5:15

services at their institution, or

5:18

they don't wanna ask for help within

5:20

their existing networks because it feels

5:23

almost shameful, right? Like that you

5:25

would need help looking for a job. It's

5:27

one of those things, and I think this is very American, that

5:30

like I can figure

5:31

out how to look for a job the same way that

5:33

like I can figure out how to

5:35

become middle class in my house, all on my

5:37

own, right? When

5:38

in reality, that is the way that it

5:40

happens for very, very few people. So

5:43

how do we get over ourselves

5:45

and ask for more help?

5:47

Realize that the only thing that you're doing is hurting

5:49

yourself. When you ask

5:51

for help, you will either get help or

5:53

you will get good information about the person

5:56

that you asked for help from. And

5:58

so at the very least, you're

6:00

gonna know, okay, that is not something that I can

6:02

depend on for support, but the best case scenario

6:05

is that someone could really help you

6:07

move forward. And if I hadn't

6:09

asked for help of that mentor, if I

6:12

had have just continued to struggle

6:14

both with my mental health and my getting myself

6:16

professionally established, I would

6:18

probably be dead. Like that

6:21

is how serious it is when you are

6:23

trying to solve all the problems yourself

6:25

and not asking for help. Ask for help.

6:28

Yeah. And often you will be surprised,

6:30

especially the last few years where

6:32

there have been so many layoffs and people have been asking

6:35

for help more publicly, that complete

6:37

and total strangers will

6:40

reach out to provide some

6:42

sort of support, the support they feel comfortable

6:44

providing, not knowing you or

6:46

expecting anything from you at all. And so

6:49

asking for help is the best thing that you can

6:51

do to move forward with your career.

6:53

What else do you see job seekers struggling

6:56

with right now?

6:57

Not taking the time to understand the difference between

7:00

information and assumptions. I

7:02

spend most of my career coaching sessions

7:05

either managing emotions or managing

7:07

assumptions because work

7:09

is emotional. It is a human experience.

7:11

The human experience is an emotional experience. Work

7:13

is an emotional experience. And so we're trying to navigate

7:16

workplace problems and career problems. Those are emotional

7:19

problems. And then the other piece

7:21

is that those emotions often push

7:24

us to make assumptions about ourselves,

7:26

about our situations, about what's

7:29

possible for us, about the potential

7:31

outcomes if we make certain decisions or take

7:33

certain actions. And often those assumptions

7:35

are either unfounded, uninformed,

7:38

completely wrong. Sometimes they're right, but

7:41

it would be better to know that it's right because it's

7:44

information than because you invented

7:46

a story in your head and then went

7:48

down the entire logic tree off

7:51

of an assumption instead of information. Yeah.

7:53

I'll say that where I see this most vividly

7:56

is people who are in industries and who have

7:58

been told or in specific

9:59

Myers-Briggs. Yeah, I

10:02

love that. Okay, so our questions today

10:04

are super practical, so we're just gonna jump

10:07

in. The first question is from Hannah. I

10:09

want to find a job that I love that

10:12

pays enough to

10:13

pay the bills and food,

10:16

etc. But I'm really struggling

10:18

to find the time and energy and

10:21

motivation, mental capacity

10:23

to job hunt whilst

10:26

I'm working full-time and

10:29

running my Brownie and Guide units and everything

10:31

else that life involves. How do I navigate

10:34

this? Alright, so first off,

10:36

I love that she mentioned

10:38

that running her Brownie unit is

10:40

actually taking up a lot of her time because I

10:42

sometimes think that people like forget

10:44

to talk about like, oh the other thing in

10:47

my life that is making it hard to do

10:49

this thing is a thing that is valuable. So

10:51

I think it's awesome. So I

10:54

think we hear this a lot of like looking

10:56

for job as a full-time job. What

10:58

advice

10:59

do you give Hannah here? I

11:01

love the point that you just made before I jump into my actual

11:03

advice, which is your personal

11:05

life also matters. Yeah. And if you are

11:08

having a hard time prioritizing

11:10

job seeking the way that you would like, it

11:13

is okay if some of that time

11:15

is going toward the things that are meaningful for

11:17

you. And I'm assuming that this respondent

11:21

is mentioning the Brownie unit because it's really

11:23

important to them. Yeah. And so I want

11:25

to answer it in a way that doesn't force

11:28

this person to downsize

11:30

their Brownie time. Yeah. Because that's important

11:32

enough for them to put in the question and so it's important enough

11:34

for us to take into account. Yeah. And the

11:36

the top line is that you have to break it up into

11:39

the smallest possible pieces. Getting

11:41

a job is a gigantic multiple

11:44

week, multiple month process. And

11:47

if we think about that project all

11:49

at once it becomes very overwhelming. But if

11:51

we break it into the tiniest possible pieces

11:54

there are things that you can do in single-digit

11:56

minutes that help you move forward

11:58

on the big project. of getting a job. And

12:01

when you have a lot of competing priorities,

12:04

a lot of stakeholders in your time, you

12:07

may not have the luxury of devoting

12:09

big time blocks to the project. You may

12:11

have to spend smaller windows on

12:14

it. But the most important thing is to do one

12:16

thing and to complete it. And a

12:19

analogy that I use is build the bridge

12:21

all the way over the chasm. You're trying to accomplish

12:23

something, fully accomplish

12:25

that one task before you move on to another

12:27

task. Because if you're bouncing around, you're building a bunch

12:30

of half bridges and you're not actually making progress on anything.

12:32

And so for this individual, I would encourage

12:34

them to sort of take a step back and do an audit of their

12:36

time. When I think about work, when I think about

12:38

my Browning unit, when I think about the other priorities

12:41

that are really important for me in my life, I

12:43

see this amount of time available,

12:46

distributed across my week, to put toward

12:48

my job search. And when I think about all of the things

12:51

that I could do to move forward with

12:53

my job search, the top priorities are

12:56

thing A, thing B, thing C. And

12:58

I can break those

12:59

into small enough pieces where five

13:01

minutes here, 15 minutes here, a half an hour here,

13:03

an hour here on a Sunday

13:05

night, I can get some of these things done. The

13:09

flip side, sort of the trade off is that

13:11

if you're working in smaller pieces spread over a longer

13:13

period of time, that does mean your job search is going to be

13:15

longer. And so if that trade off is too

13:17

uncomfortable, ask for help. Are there

13:20

other people who might be able to support

13:22

you temporarily or permanently

13:24

in these aspects of your personal life

13:27

that are currently competing with your job search? Because you're

13:29

not going to be searching for a job forever. You're going to be

13:31

able to go back to fully committing

13:33

to the things that you've committed to now. But

13:36

if there are any people who can help you with the Browning unit,

13:38

just temporarily while you're doing the job search, or

13:40

with the other aspects in your personal life,

13:43

that can be really helpful. But also, maybe

13:46

there's room to set better boundaries at work so

13:48

that it's not following you into your personal

13:50

time and more of your personal time is available

13:52

for both the Browning unit and your job

13:55

search.

13:55

One thing I've heard from people is that they

13:58

are very good at looking at you. job listings

14:01

and not very good at finishing

14:03

the applications, right? It's kind of like dating.

14:05

Like you're like, I'm, I'm really into

14:07

looking at everyone's profiles and let's

14:10

get it going on the dates. And

14:12

I think that like your advice that like,

14:14

okay, you got to follow through, like don't just make the

14:17

spreadsheet with all of the jobs. That's

14:19

the fun

14:19

part almost. Right.

14:21

Like you gotta make this like that step

14:23

one, but then, okay, boom, boom, boom,

14:26

boom. Put that into little like consumable

14:28

or manageable bites of got

14:30

to get my resume into this like, and it's

14:33

true that every job requires

14:35

tinkering. It requires specialization,

14:38

but if you break it into

14:39

those smaller pieces, I think it's really possible.

14:42

It's also important to like find the things that you're

14:44

doing repeatedly and see if there's a way that you can

14:46

do it more efficiently. You know, my, I

14:48

don't didn't think of in my dating days,

14:51

I did not think of a special message

14:53

for every person. I asked every single person

14:55

what they're reading. If they weren't reading books, they

14:57

weren't a good match for me. And

14:59

so finding that, that took the pressure

15:02

off of, you

15:02

know, how to move, do that first step because

15:04

getting started is always the hardest part. And so what

15:07

are the templates that you can use? What are the guides

15:09

that you can use to support you in this? And

15:12

this is another opportunity to ask for

15:14

help. If there are people who you

15:16

know, who are also looking, maybe you can

15:18

crowdsource the effort of figuring

15:21

some of these things out or reading

15:23

them through making sure that they're doing the best possible

15:25

job. And certainly a mentor or a coach can help

15:27

with that as well.

15:28

Yeah. Like having someone who can

15:30

be your proofreader, having someone

15:32

who can like just keep

15:34

an

15:34

eye out, right? Like have a, an alert on or something

15:37

like that.

15:37

But I also really liked the point that you made that you

15:39

can draw on your

15:40

support, like your support

15:42

structure.

15:43

To make some time for this, because

15:45

this is a huge, important thing. It's

15:47

not the same as an illness. It's not the same as

15:49

a crisis, but it is a big life

15:51

thing. And if you were moving,

15:54

you would feel like you could ask people for some help.

15:57

Yeah. Um, and so maybe to think of

15:59

it, some like.

15:59

that's

16:01

if you have kids like can I have some help with child

16:03

care for a day or with your

16:05

current job can I take a day off

16:08

like can I take use one of my PTO days

16:10

which like that's hard and

16:12

I think that's not a great equation but maybe

16:14

that's what you need to get started is

16:17

that one for you leaving and you're

16:19

gonna lose those PTO days anyway

16:21

depending on the state where you are especially

16:23

if you have a limited PTO yeah

16:28

all right so that's a great segue into our next question

16:31

but it's about still doing your current

16:33

job well when you want out let's hear

16:35

from Beth

16:36

I'm an early career physician and

16:38

I'm miserable

16:40

this system is broken beyond repair

16:42

such that any singular

16:43

doctor is absolutely

16:46

useless and trying to make any changes

16:48

for the better but as a

16:50

mom and a partner and

16:52

frankly a human with other needs

16:54

and desires I'm seriously contemplating

16:57

leaving medicine all together I know

17:00

it will take time years even

17:02

for a new nonclinical path to

17:05

take shape and yet

17:07

I'm worried about my job in the meantime

17:09

because I really really need

17:11

it

17:12

but how do I avoid my colleagues finding

17:14

out will they assume I'm not dedicated

17:17

or working hard enough and what

17:19

about my patients how do I

17:21

balance planning and researching a career

17:24

shift while

17:25

continuing in this job that

17:27

is slowly killing me but

17:29

in which I'm absolutely deeply

17:32

and painfully

17:33

stuck

17:35

this is a horrible

17:38

feeling and knowing that you're done and that you want out

17:40

but you can't actually leave yet knowing that

17:42

the relationship is over but like for

17:44

whatever reason you can't leave yet so

17:46

I think we can address this

17:48

in parts first

17:50

how can best throw herself into figuring

17:53

out this new career without

17:54

her current colleagues finding

17:56

out

17:57

actually let me start a little bit further back yeah

17:59

yeah why do

17:59

does Beth think that it's going to take years? Remember

18:02

at the top of the episode, we were talking

18:04

about assumptions, and then people go down

18:07

a really long path of assumptions.

18:09

Beth is assuming that it's going to take

18:11

years for her to put her

18:14

next career together. And maybe

18:17

there's some context that we weren't able to get

18:19

in the brevity of the question that makes

18:21

that a reasonable assumption. But

18:23

from my professional opinion, I don't

18:25

think that's a reasonable assumption. Years,

18:28

multiple years, that's

18:30

a really long time. And a career transition

18:33

can definitely happen in a shorter period of time.

18:35

The additional assumption is, if

18:38

your colleagues find out

18:40

that matters

18:42

in any way, your

18:44

colleagues don't have to live your life. You have

18:46

to live your life. You are the one who has to

18:48

live every day with the consequences of your decisions.

18:51

And if you're making those decisions based on the

18:53

way that your colleagues, or really anyone,

18:56

is going to think of you or how they might

18:58

react to you, then you are living for

19:00

someone who is not living for you. Those

19:02

colleagues are not out there thinking, man,

19:05

I wonder what Beth thinks about how I spend my

19:07

day. But Beth is thinking that

19:10

about these colleagues, and it's keeping

19:12

her from taking the action that she needs

19:14

to take to move herself

19:17

out of a career that she is killing her, that

19:19

she hates, and into a career chapter

19:21

that is better suited for her needs. And so

19:24

all of these assumptions are things that I would want

19:26

to pull out and say, tell me more about this. Why do you

19:28

think this?

19:29

I sense that Beth is

19:31

a people pleaser.

19:33

It's possible. And is sensing

19:35

feelings of obligations that

19:39

she would let people down. Just as a

19:41

funny side note, I was working

19:43

for, I was a nanny for a doctor

19:46

who wanted

19:47

to quit.

19:48

One

19:51

day I had to get ahold of her

19:54

to ask her a question about something, and then this was pre-cell

19:56

phone,

19:56

so I called her office. And

19:59

on.

19:59

And on the answering

20:02

machine, it said, like, Dr.

20:04

so-and-so is no longer taking patients as

20:06

she prepares to leave the practice to

20:09

like to stop being a doctor. And she hadn't

20:11

told me yet as her nanny, because

20:14

when she stopped being a doctor, she was not

20:15

going to need my services anymore.

20:17

And so it actually created this weird

20:20

situation where because she hadn't told me

20:22

of her plans, and I was

20:24

dependent on her, it was not

20:26

a great situation. It turned out

20:28

fine, but like she should have told me as well

20:30

when she

20:31

made that public to her workplace.

20:34

This is not that situation, right? She's talking

20:36

about her colleagues. She's not talking about anyone

20:38

whose job is contingent upon

20:40

her. So I think that you're totally

20:43

right that like, no one else is

20:45

spending their days thinking about how

20:48

Beth is spending her day. So she can

20:50

liberate herself a little bit from that fear. And

20:54

that's not to say that

20:55

they wouldn't have opinions about

20:57

it if they found out in a

21:00

very clear way that she

21:02

was on her way out. But those

21:04

opinions don't only matter as long as you

21:06

have to work with those people. And

21:09

you have to work with those people for as long

21:11

as you're doing everything else other than moving

21:13

yourself into another professional situation.

21:16

So it's worth it to

21:18

invest in yourself and to make those decisions

21:21

and risk the possibility of

21:23

people finding out that you're interested

21:25

in moving into another direction and then

21:28

dealing with the consequences of that. Because

21:31

on the other side of those consequences is

21:33

a better life.

21:34

Yeah. What if we're reading this slightly off

21:36

and what if Beth is worried

21:38

that her colleagues

21:41

will say, well, if you don't want to be doing this job,

21:43

like you should get out of here. Kind

21:45

of like a more aggressive reaction. Do

21:47

you sense that at all? Or do you have any advice on that?

21:50

I don't sense that, but it does happen.

21:52

But it's very

21:53

rare. It's very, very rare. If

21:55

you are working in an industry that is highly

21:57

competitive, an industry.

22:00

where there are lots of trade secrets and

22:02

corporate espionage is the difference between millions

22:04

and billions, then those sorts of things

22:06

can happen. Certainly if you're

22:09

working in consulting, that can be a big

22:12

challenge. But it's challenging

22:14

for me to see that as

22:17

a real risk to where a real

22:19

threat to where it needs to change the way that she

22:21

approaches her job search. Some

22:24

people can be, it depends on the

22:26

relationship with the organization and the relationship

22:28

with your supervisor. Some people can be very straightforward

22:30

and say, I'd love to talk to you about succession

22:33

planning. I think that my time in this role

22:35

is coming to an end. I know there aren't

22:37

opportunities within the organization that meet my

22:39

needs at this time, but I want to make sure that everyone has

22:41

a really good off ramp. And this

22:43

is a timeline that I'm looking at. Does that timeline

22:46

work for you? Some people can do that.

22:48

Some people can't, but it is an option. And

22:50

it really depends on your comfort

22:52

level, what kind of work you're doing,

22:54

what kind of organization that you're in. Beth

22:57

is genuinely concerned that she's going to get pushed out

23:00

if her colleagues find out that

23:02

she is looking. They

23:05

are probably not actively spending

23:07

time trying to figure out how long everyone

23:09

is going to be staying in the organization.

23:12

And so it's just a matter of having some discretion,

23:14

especially as it relates to networking. And

23:17

since she's looking to leave medicine, she

23:19

doesn't need to have discretion in terms of what kinds of companies

23:21

she's applying for because she's going to be moving into a different

23:23

industry. If that wasn't the case,

23:26

if she was looking to stay in medicine and move into a different

23:28

role within medicine or a different space in

23:30

medicine, then she would need to have some discretion

23:33

in terms of what kinds of companies that she's applying

23:35

for so that things don't move around. That's certainly

23:38

the case in industries that are very

23:40

small, where there's lots of sort of poaching and people

23:43

moving all around. But in this case, since

23:45

she's looking to move into another industry, that

23:47

discretion might not be necessary.

23:49

How do you think she can stay, as she mentioned

23:51

in the question, stay engaged in her current work

23:53

and keep doing a good job when

23:56

she's spending more of this mental energy

23:58

figuring out how to leave?

23:59

This is a situation where outsourcing

24:02

could be really helpful. Given

24:04

that this individual is a physician, I'm

24:06

assuming that they have a bit of financial

24:08

flexibility where they can invest in themselves and

24:10

that they have some money that they could put toward

24:13

their career and that the time is the resource that

24:15

is as scarce as possible. Outsourcing

24:18

some of this work is a really great idea.

24:20

I am generally not a fan of engaging

24:22

resume writers because they don't build your skills. You

24:25

get a thing and then the

24:27

thing is only useful for the time that you're using

24:29

it and then you don't actually have the skills to

24:32

update it for the next time you need it. This

24:34

is a situation where I would send her

24:37

all full force, go get you a resume writer girl,

24:40

go get someone who can support

24:42

you in creating these materials,

24:44

who can support you in collecting

24:47

these materials, look into a VA

24:49

service who might be able to, an actual

24:52

human who can find more of these

24:54

listings and assess them

24:56

against particular criteria, work with them

24:59

over time to refine that so that

25:01

the list that this individual provides

25:03

for you in support of your goals is

25:06

truly worthy of the scarce

25:08

time that you have to make these applications

25:10

move forward. There are lots of people who

25:12

don't have that privilege, but if you do have

25:15

the benefit of some finances that you can

25:17

put towards solving your career transition

25:19

problems, it makes sense to make that investment.

25:21

It doesn't necessarily need to be a career coach.

25:24

Obviously as a career coach, I have invested interest

25:26

in this advice, but the

25:29

right support for you in terms

25:31

of investing in support, there are

25:33

lots and lots of places where you can find that support.

25:36

Yeah, like spend some money on finding

25:38

someone who can do the fonts for

25:40

you. You know what I mean? If that's going to be

25:43

a big weight, so many people

25:46

I know, especially in jobs where they've never had to necessarily

25:48

apply in a traditional way, which is often

25:51

the case in a situation

25:53

like this, they're just so overwhelmed

25:55

by

25:55

the prospect of finding a resume

25:58

template. And that's something that you can.

26:00

I love Etsy. Etsy has great resume

26:03

templates. They're pretty, they're attractive.

26:05

Some of them are too attractive where they don't

26:07

actually make sense for applicant tracking systems.

26:10

But I have like a little list

26:12

that I send to my clients like check these out

26:14

if you like any of them, buy that and

26:17

fill in the blanks. You don't need to put a bunch of mental

26:19

energy into choosing what googling

26:21

font pairing. No, no. Thank

26:23

you for the

26:24

specific advice because I feel like that's

26:26

a place where people if they

26:28

weren't necessarily frequenters

26:31

of that world wouldn't know that that's the place

26:33

where you go and get resume templates. It

26:35

doesn't have to be Microsoft Word.

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30:28

Our next question is like the thesis

30:30

of this entire podcast, so I'm glad

30:32

we get to address it head

30:33

on. This is from Kayla, and our

30:35

producer, Melody, is going to read it.

30:37

I'm going to be on the job market soon, and

30:39

my question is, what makes a good

30:41

job? What are some standards I should

30:44

be looking out for, regardless of my industry?

30:47

There are so many places we could start.

30:49

Phoebe, you go first. What do you think? Well,

30:52

this is a really hard question to answer because everyone's

30:54

different. Depending on your

30:56

personal preferences, your life stage,

30:58

your industry, the differences

31:00

in what makes a good job are massive.

31:02

I think one thing that is universal

31:05

is respect for your humanity. Some

31:08

companies just see workers as the means of production

31:09

and as assets rather

31:12

than actual human beings,

31:13

but there are lots of ways that

31:15

a company or a leader can show respect

31:18

for the humanity of the workers.

31:21

What makes me feel seen and

31:23

respected might be different from what you

31:25

would think makes you feel seen and respected.

31:28

For example, I am a work introvert.

31:30

I don't like to share a lot of my personal stuff

31:33

in work situations. I don't

31:35

want work

31:35

friends, but that is a real

31:37

perk

31:37

for a lot of people. There

31:40

are differences. I think what

31:42

I would do

31:42

is encourage this person to ask themselves

31:44

a few questions.

31:46

Imagine what it looks like when work sits

31:48

comfortably in your life. What does

31:50

that actually look like when work gives more to your

31:53

life than it takes? There are going to be some characteristics

31:55

that come up. Write those down. Don't do it

31:57

in your head. Write it down.

31:58

If you could design

31:59

a working dynamic with your colleagues

32:02

and your supervisors. What would that look like?

32:04

Write it down. Where do you sit

32:06

on the work-life balance spectrum? Are

32:08

you a separator or are you an integrator

32:11

or are you somewhere in between? Do

32:13

you need work to be a source of meaning

32:15

for your life or do you want work to make space

32:18

for meaning outside of work?

32:21

And if you are able to take some time to think through

32:23

those things and write them down, don't do it in your head, please

32:25

write it down, that is going to help you

32:27

identify some characteristics around standards

32:30

that are custom to you versus

32:32

the ones that work for air quotes everyone.

32:35

Yeah, I feel like in some ways this

32:38

advice might seem facile but

32:40

it's, I think she should

32:42

journal about it. Like this is what

32:44

you're suggesting, right? It's like you need

32:46

to talk to yourself and

32:49

maybe that means you need to talk to

32:51

a friend first to get to consolidate

32:53

some of those ideas, right? Some people are real external

32:56

processors in that way and then some people

32:58

like me, like I don't know how

32:59

I feel about something until I'm forced to write it down

33:02

and oftentimes particularly

33:04

in my own, like write

33:06

it physically in my own handwriting

33:08

because you know as many people

33:10

know the time it takes for you

33:12

to actually move the pen or the pencil on the

33:14

page is the time like your brain

33:17

is catching up with it and thinking about it and

33:19

so I think that that is just fantastic

33:22

advice for actually figuring out what a good job

33:24

looks like for you and

33:26

the other thing that I would emphasize and you touch on this

33:28

is like you might be, you

33:31

also should figure out what type of job

33:33

are you looking for at this season

33:35

in your life. Maybe you are looking

33:37

for a job that's going to consume you. Maybe

33:40

that's what like you just you want to feel

33:43

absolutely dedicated to your job for this

33:45

period

33:45

in your life.

33:47

Maybe you've been in a job like that

33:49

and that is the opposite of what you want.

33:52

You can be honest with yourself instead

33:55

of trying to like

33:55

replicate a different sort of job

33:57

that you've had in the past or a job that you've seen others

33:59

have.

33:59

or that sort of thing. What kind of job

34:02

are you looking for?

34:03

And that will give you some leeway. And

34:05

I think too that you

34:07

can be honest with the fact that maybe if I'm

34:09

looking for a ton more flexibility,

34:12

then I can't also look for the

34:14

highest pay scale.

34:16

There are gifts and takes.

34:18

There are definitely some trade offs. But

34:20

I completely agree with you on the importance of writing it down,

34:22

which is why I send so many my clients worksheets all

34:24

the time. Sometimes they get annoyed with

34:26

me like, I just want to talk about it. I understand that you want

34:29

to talk about it, but that's not actually going to be helpful

34:31

for you. We're not going to be able

34:33

to look at our conversation and then

34:35

use that as criteria. But if you write

34:37

something down and you get your thoughts

34:39

out of your head and onto paper, then you have that reference.

34:42

I love a whiteboard. I'm a whiteboard person. I'm

34:44

not a journal person, but I am a whiteboard person. And

34:47

when I whiteboard it out and I can erase

34:49

and cross out new different colors and do all those

34:52

sorts of things, it really helps me, especially

34:54

as a person with ADD who goes in every

34:56

single direction cognitively, it really

34:58

forces me to complete entire

35:00

thoughts and get them onto the whiteboard

35:03

and then analyze them after they have been completed.

35:06

And that analysis is often where

35:08

people get caught up when they're doing it in their head. They'll

35:10

think, Oh, I'd like some flexibility. Oh, but

35:12

that means I'm not going to be able to take as much

35:14

pay as I would like, or I'd have to switch industries

35:16

or what if they change their remote

35:18

policy at the last minute. We

35:20

don't need to think all of those things through. We

35:23

need to write all of those things down and then think

35:25

them through separately and independently. Right.

35:27

And prioritize there.

35:29

We get a lot of questions from people who

35:31

maybe like one of their priorities is good

35:34

health insurance or parental leave or

35:36

PTO time, but also

35:39

feel like it's just totally inscrutable

35:41

what a company's

35:43

offering in terms of those sorts of benefits until

35:45

you get to the point of nearly getting the job.

35:48

And I wonder if your background

35:50

here can maybe help us think about like, how can

35:52

you suss those things out

35:54

when you're on the job? That's a challenging one. If

35:56

you are looking to work for a large company, I

35:58

definitely recommend. spending some good

36:00

old time on Glassdoor. Glassdoor

36:04

is flawed, but one of the things that

36:06

it is really helpful for is assessing

36:09

what the benefits are a bit more

36:12

accurately than you would if you're just kind of digging

36:14

through the company website. And certainly

36:16

more accurately than if you are asking

36:20

a tiny vulnerable question at the beginning

36:22

of the application process. And

36:24

so that can be a really great way to do it if you're looking to

36:27

work at medium to large organizations

36:29

where there are going to be a lot of Glassdoor submissions

36:31

for the company. But otherwise, it's

36:33

not something we actually have to disclose. Hopefully

36:35

that's something that changes in the future.

36:37

Yeah, man, it's so hard, right?

36:40

You're like, all I want to know is can I have

36:42

a baby,

36:42

right? Or all I want to know

36:44

is like,

36:45

what insurance plan you're on. I

36:47

do, I have a friend who did this kind of like,

36:50

I wouldn't say sneaky, did it in sort of like a

36:52

different way, was just

36:53

found someone in their larger

36:56

LinkedIn network who had recently

36:57

left a job and really

36:59

just said, like, can you tell me what insurance

37:01

plan you guys had?

37:02

Oh my gosh, that's genius. That's

37:05

so smart. And you know, if the person

37:07

is on, I love that this friend

37:09

of yours asked someone who just left the company

37:12

because they don't have any vested interest

37:14

in

37:15

protecting the company's information.

37:18

And maybe they'll throw you something else interesting,

37:20

right? Exactly. And it's also one of

37:23

those things where if you are asking someone

37:25

who is sort of early career or mid career,

37:27

they don't get questions about their career. They

37:29

haven't gotten to the point where they

37:32

are, you know, splashy and

37:35

glittery where people want to talk to them. And

37:37

so the likelihood of getting a response is really high.

37:40

And so I think that's such a genius idea. I'm stealing

37:42

it.

37:42

Well, and especially like, let's say you will

37:44

maybe want to have a kid at some

37:47

point in the future in a time span

37:49

when you would

37:50

optimally be in this job.

37:52

That's something where you definitely

37:55

want to talk to someone who's also had

37:57

a kid who's been at that organization.

38:00

some capacity. And like there are

38:02

sneakier ways that you can do that while you're

38:04

in the job interview process of being like,

38:07

Oh, can I talk to like, is there a new

38:09

mom's interest, like affinity group,

38:12

but also talking to someone who's left the company

38:14

about the honest expectations

38:17

of people in and out of parental leave

38:19

would be really interesting and, and

38:21

useful. But

38:23

that's also getting the

38:24

horse in front of the cart

38:25

a little bit. If you just need

38:27

to know, can I still go to my doctor?

38:29

Is the insurance coverage decent?

38:32

Those are quick and easy questions

38:34

that you can ask someone on LinkedIn

38:36

for sure. Yep.

38:38

Our next question is from Suvi,

38:40

who is looking to make a pivot. So

38:42

I've been a researcher in the nonprofit sector for 13

38:45

years. I'm no longer passionate about what I do

38:47

and would like to make some money. But I have no

38:50

idea what kind of job my skills are transferable

38:52

to, or what industry I might be interested

38:54

in. Who could I talk to who knows enough about

38:57

the job market in different industries who could look at

38:59

my resume and say, your

39:01

skills are transferable to X job in

39:03

Y industry, making the amount of money. And here's

39:05

how you pivot. Is there a person who does

39:08

that? I'm using a career coach currently,

39:10

but they aren't really doing that for me. Should I

39:12

be looking for a career transition coach? Does that

39:14

even exist? Thank you. All

39:17

right. So first I want to plug

39:19

our episode about pivoting with

39:21

Elsa Chang, but also figuring

39:23

out the options for a pivot can be very daunting.

39:27

And also I think sometimes we

39:29

don't understand exactly what a career coach

39:32

can do. So I want to talk a little bit about

39:34

that first. So Phoebe,

39:36

what do you think? Is this in your will? So

39:38

obviously

39:38

I don't know who this person is or who their

39:41

career coach is. And so I don't want to criticize

39:43

their current coach. And I also can't

39:45

speak to their specific situation, but

39:48

I'm, I'm assuming that this description

39:51

is sort of a highly simplified version

39:53

of what they want for the sake

39:55

of brevity for the question. Because I

39:57

don't know of anyone who has

39:59

a

40:01

comprehensive enough understanding of

40:03

the entirety of the US economy to be

40:05

able to provide this person with this information

40:08

based off of a one or two page resume.

40:11

Also a one or two page resume that's not

40:13

what it is designed to do, it's designed to get

40:15

you an interview, it's not even designed to get you a job.

40:18

And so a resume is not going

40:20

to be a good tool for designing

40:22

a career pivot. And so when

40:26

you think about working with a career coach

40:29

and or exploring the idea of working

40:31

with some sort of investing in some

40:33

sort of career support service, it's

40:35

really important to be clear in your own mind

40:37

about what problem you want to solve

40:40

and what success looks

40:42

like for you. And then what the career coach

40:44

does is comes in and helps you understand

40:47

what is the path that is going to get you

40:49

from where you are now to where you want

40:51

to go. And that career coach is

40:53

going to walk with you through that process

40:56

so that you are supported through the entire

40:58

experience.

40:59

That is not to say

41:00

that the career coach is going to do all of the work

41:02

for you. You're going to have to do a lot

41:04

of the work to figure out some of the answers

41:07

to these questions. A good coach is going to

41:09

be well positioned to understand your

41:11

needs and to read between the lines

41:13

and to change things up if things change

41:15

to make sure that you're always in alignment. But

41:17

they're not going to be able to do the work for you. And even

41:19

if they did, they don't know you or

41:22

your history as well as you do.

41:24

I have clients that I've worked with for years and I don't

41:26

know them as well as they know them. We've

41:30

had maybe eight or ten hours of conversations.

41:33

They have been living their actual professional

41:35

lives. And so often I give

41:37

them homework of I want you to think about

41:39

these questions and then let's look at the answers

41:42

together so that we can figure out what the best move

41:45

is as far as getting you to where you want to go.

41:48

But a career coach is not like a career strategy

41:50

ATM or like a career repairman where we

41:52

pull up our manual and say okay these are

41:54

the things this is with the tool that we need and turn

41:56

the wrench 45 degrees it just

41:59

doesn't work that way. because people are really

42:01

unique. And so it's more like working

42:03

with a doctor or a therapist because

42:06

people are very complicated. Careers

42:08

are very complicated. And so it requires

42:11

quite a bit more nuance than we have in our question

42:13

today.

42:14

You gotta do the work yourself too. Like

42:16

you gotta do that homework. You know, you call

42:18

it like homework worksheets. Like you gotta do

42:20

that work before you can figure it out. Job

42:23

seekers are not the same as dogs, but

42:25

if you bring your dog to a dog

42:27

trainer, the dog trainer does amazing work,

42:30

right? But then give

42:31

the dog back and it's like, now

42:33

you gotta do this work, right?

42:35

Like you have to continue these practices

42:37

and this mindfulness and you gotta like put in that

42:40

labor yourself. And I don't think that our question

42:42

asker is like expecting

42:45

the career coach to do all of the work for

42:47

them. But I do think- Well, I have

42:49

ended

42:50

up in consultations with folks who wanted

42:52

similar things or wanted that

42:55

much sort of simplicity and ease in the process.

42:58

And man, if there's someone listening who

43:00

knows how to do that, like please contact me.

43:02

I would love to learn from you. I will apprentice, I

43:04

will unpaid internship and paid internship. Because

43:07

it's a lot messier than that.

43:09

But one thing that I do wanna note is

43:12

that, you know, this person is already working with a coach

43:14

and the coach, they're not getting what they want out

43:16

of that coaching experience.

43:18

You are paying this person

43:20

to help you solve a problem. If they

43:22

are not helping you solve that problem the way you

43:24

want it solved, tell them. Either

43:27

that coach is going to say, oh, okay,

43:30

well, let's take a step back. Let's figure out what needs to change

43:32

so that your needs can be met. Or they're gonna

43:34

say, it sounds like the

43:37

problem that we came in to work together

43:39

to solve has changed or

43:41

is now is outside of my wheelhouse.

43:43

We might want to sunset our relationship

43:46

and transition you to somebody who can support

43:48

you in the way that you wanna be supported. I've had

43:50

that happen. I'm not a business coach. And a lot of people

43:52

who end up working with me decide they wanna start a business.

43:55

All right, once you make that decision, it

43:57

is time for you to go talk to someone else. And so.

44:00

When you are working with anyone

44:02

to support you in solving these problems, whether

44:04

it's a career coach And this is true for therapists

44:07

as well Tell them if they

44:09

are not meeting your needs the way that you want

44:11

them met

44:12

I also think that maybe what this question asker

44:14

is looking for

44:15

There might be looking for a headhunter like to be

44:18

connected with a headhunter in some sort of way Do

44:20

you sense that at all?

44:21

If they went to a headhunter with this question

44:24

That person would be able to to

44:26

some extent answer What

44:29

kinds of jobs what kinds

44:31

of industries what kinds of money but

44:33

the headhunter isn't going to be able to help you pivot

44:36

yeah, their role is

44:38

filling positions and What

44:40

they are going to want is to receive

44:43

a nice resume from you put it

44:45

into their database so they can match you with

44:48

The roles from the companies that have

44:50

retained them to fill positions. They

44:52

are not career coaches They are not in the business of helping

44:54

candidates outside of

44:57

Making it as easy as possible for good

44:59

candidates get matched with the roles they've been paid to

45:01

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47:14

Conoce a Estela y a Juan. Ellos están

47:17

pensando qué comprarles a sus hijos de estas

47:19

fiestas. Barbie, Barbie, Barbie. No

47:21

pasa ni un día sin que ella mencione a Barbie.

47:23

En Walmart pueden encontrar Barbies por menos.

47:26

¿Y para Miguelito? Vroom, vroom.

47:29

Para él, cualquier cosa con ruedas. Entonces

47:32

el Hot Wheels City Playset. ¿O qué tal

47:34

algo de Dog Patrol? Paw

47:36

Patrol, cualquier juguete que esté de moda,

47:38

lo tenemos y a mejor precio. No solo

47:40

tenemos todo para las fiestas, tenemos

47:42

ese algo perfecto para las tuyas.

47:51

We've got one last question about pivoting and

47:54

how to frame it. This is from Gia

47:56

and our colleague Julia is going to read it.

47:58

All of my jobs for the.

47:59

past six years have been under two

48:02

years for various reasons,

48:04

layoffs moving from part-time to full-time,

48:06

contracts, etc.

48:08

including my current role. Is

48:10

job hopping still the black mark on your resume

48:13

that it's been made out to be? I'm looking

48:15

change jobs and industries so

48:17

that my work is more aligned with my education.

48:20

How do I explain or present my job

48:22

history in my resume cover letter?

48:25

Okay

48:25

this is a big one because I think

48:27

that there's a

48:30

sentiment and sometimes

48:32

we do this on the podcast too that's like

48:34

if you're miserable in a job try to

48:37

leave it but also

48:39

there is wisdom in staying

48:42

at a job that is

48:45

not perfect

48:46

in order to get enough experience

48:49

and enough time under

48:50

your belt that it doesn't look like

48:53

you are the person who leaves under

48:55

any duress or like can't find satisfaction

48:58

in a job.

48:58

What is your thinking on this Phoebe? If you

49:01

would have asked me this

49:02

question in 2019 I would be giving

49:04

you a very different answer but the

49:06

last three years have just been so

49:08

crazy and reasonable recruiters and hiring

49:11

managers know that there are a lot of really great

49:13

people out there who have a

49:15

choppy 2020, 2021, 2022 situation and they've had no fault of their own

49:17

and they

49:22

are more willing to entertain

49:24

the idea that that choppiness

49:27

is not a reflection of the quality of the candidate

49:30

but a reflection of the economy

49:32

that we have experienced over the last

49:34

four years. So the thing that sticks

49:36

out to me about this questioner

49:39

is that she's saying that

49:41

this is a six year period so we're going

49:43

back before pandemic

49:45

times and we're still having some choppiness

49:48

and I think that depending that's

49:50

kind of a different story if I was working

49:53

with this person I would kind of would have to give them

49:55

some bad news you know depending on the details

49:57

we can do some resume magic we the cover

49:59

letter can do some heavy lifting in terms of sort

50:01

of smoothing over the rough edges

50:04

and creating a narrative that makes sense

50:06

to a recruiter or a hiring manager who

50:09

doesn't know you, who doesn't know your capabilities,

50:12

and wouldn't be able to apply COVID compassion

50:15

to the professional experience

50:17

that was choppier prior to 2020. And

50:20

so that kind of brings me to the

50:22

next key thing when you have sort of a challenging

50:25

narrative, a challenging timeline, is that it is absolutely

50:28

essential to network. People are more

50:30

skeptical of strangers and they are more trusting

50:32

of people they know. And so if you want

50:34

less skepticism and more trust,

50:37

then you need to beef up your network. And so putting

50:39

effort into getting more

50:42

involved with professional associations,

50:45

doing some, you know, LinkedIn research, try to find

50:47

the kinds of people who are doing the kind of work that you'd

50:50

like to transition into, the kinds

50:52

of people who work at the companies that you'd be interested

50:54

in, and becoming, building your proximity

50:57

to the opportunities that you would like to have, that

50:59

is going to increase the likelihood that the recruiters

51:02

and hiring managers who you interact

51:04

with your applications are going to be

51:06

warm or lukewarm versus cold. Because

51:09

those cold recruiters and those cold hiring managers

51:11

are going to go through the pandemic

51:14

years and say, oh, you know, man, too bad. It was

51:16

a really sucky few years, and then get

51:18

to that previous time. And then it becomes

51:20

a real question mark. Now, job hopping doesn't

51:23

really have an official definition. I say 18

51:25

months, there are people who say two years. I

51:27

think the problem is more that it's consecutive. Once

51:30

you get into this next role,

51:32

try to

51:33

really be thoughtful and

51:35

intentional about choosing it so that it

51:38

has the highest likelihood of being one where you

51:40

can stay for more than 18 months,

51:43

two years, ideally three years, because

51:45

then it's like we've broken the chain. Stuff

51:47

happened. And then I found this really great job.

51:49

I stayed in it for three years. I learned

51:52

that I drove some results, I improved

51:54

upon those results, and now I'm ready for the next opportunity.

51:56

That is a narrative that most recruiters and hiring managers

51:59

are going to be able to to get around, but

52:02

if we continue having the choppiness, it just

52:04

kind of gets harder over time.

52:05

Can you say

52:07

just explicitly what job

52:10

managers and hiring managers, like what do they, what

52:13

is it, what are the messages

52:14

in their head when they see that choppiness in a resume?

52:17

So most people who don't have hiring experience

52:19

or have never run a business don't realize

52:22

that payroll is the most expensive,

52:25

is the biggest line item

52:27

in a company's budget. It doesn't matter how big or

52:29

small the company is, payroll is the biggest line item.

52:32

People are very, very expensive. Hiring

52:34

people is expensive, training people is expensive,

52:37

managing people's performance is expensive, firing

52:39

people is expensive. Believe it or not, laying

52:42

people off is expensive. Everything associated

52:44

with people is expensive. And

52:48

so anytime you're going to make a hiring decision, all

52:51

of that is weighing on you. That's like, I need to get

52:53

this right because if I don't, it's going to be really

52:56

expensive. And it's not just expensive in terms

52:58

of spending the money to accomplish those tasks,

53:00

but also losing the results

53:02

that you would have driven if you had the right

53:05

person in the job doing the role well,

53:07

fully trained, operating at their awesome

53:09

level. And so when they see,

53:11

when a recruiter and hiring manager see a

53:13

choppy resume, they are wondering

53:16

like, why might that be

53:18

the case? And a pre-2019

53:22

logic chain for that could be, well,

53:24

you know, maybe they aren't a very good

53:26

performer, maybe they aren't very dedicated

53:29

to the work that they're doing,

53:31

maybe they're impossible to please, maybe

53:33

they jump every time they see a new

53:36

job title or a new compensation

53:39

level. And don't get me wrong, those

53:41

are all perfectly reasonable reasons to leave

53:43

a position. But again, we're occupying

53:46

the mindset of a recruiter or a hiring

53:48

manager who's thinking about all of these costs to

53:50

the organization if they don't get this

53:52

role right, if they don't pick the right person. And

53:55

so they are being a little bit more conservative

53:58

about how can we make sure that we pick the choose

54:00

the right person. And they're actively looking

54:02

for those red flags. And once

54:04

they get to the point where you're having a conversation,

54:07

you can talk through your narrative and you can

54:09

help them understand the full context. And ideally,

54:12

your cover letter does a lot of this work as well. And

54:14

that can assuage some of the

54:16

concerns that they might have around the choppiness.

54:19

So I think our advice to this person would

54:21

be

54:22

that they can start doing that groundwork

54:24

of looking to change jobs and industries right

54:26

now. Perfect time to start doing

54:28

that early work. But maybe try to

54:30

get to that two-year mark

54:33

in order to show a shift. Yeah.

54:36

Another thing to piece of contact that we

54:38

don't have about this person is where they are in their career.

54:41

If you're early in your career and this has

54:43

been what the situation is, you probably can get a

54:45

bit more compassion. I graduated in 2018.

54:49

And my first couple of jobs, I was figuring

54:51

it out. And then I landed in a really great place.

54:53

And then they laid everyone off to the pandemic.

54:56

And then this happened. I really just

54:58

want to find a place where I can settle in and do my

55:00

very best work. I've assembled a lot

55:02

of skills and experience over the last six

55:04

years, even though it's been at a few different companies.

55:06

And I'm looking forward to putting all of that together

55:09

to drive the results necessary

55:11

in this role. That's a great thing to say. But

55:13

once you become more mid in your career,

55:15

senior in your career, that narrative doesn't exactly

55:18

work. And you kind of have to go about it a different

55:20

way.

55:21

I think this is a fantastic place for

55:23

us to wrap up. Phoebe, this has been such

55:25

a pleasure. I feel like

55:27

I don't have any jobs to search for. But I feel like

55:29

I would have the encouragement to go

55:32

start journaling and figure out what kind of job I'm

55:34

looking

55:34

for. If people want to find

55:36

more about

55:37

you on the internet, where can they look?

55:40

I am on your favorite social media platform

55:42

as Better With Phoebe. And you can go to betterwithphoebe.com

55:45

to sign up for my newsletter and attend my free workshops.

55:47

Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you.

55:50

Before we go, a hot tip about keeping up

55:52

with the news. For a quick and punchy take

55:54

on the state of our world and

55:56

how much longer it can hang on, look no further

55:58

than Crooked Media's What Day newsletter. In just

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to the What A Day newsletter at crooked.com

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slash daily.

56:15

Thanks so much for listening to Work Appropriate.

56:18

We are working on a bunch of exciting episodes right

56:20

now and we need your

56:21

questions. We've got one on all

56:23

things pregnancy and work, one

56:26

on creating a healthy and enjoyable

56:28

remote

56:28

culture, and one on creating

56:30

boundaries between work and the rest

56:32

of your life.

56:33

If any of these sound like something you're going through, head

56:36

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56:38

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56:40

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57:06

It really

57:06

helps. Work Appropriate is

57:08

a Crooked Media production. I'm Anne

57:10

Helen Peterson, your host. Our executive

57:13

producer is Kendra James. Melody

57:15

Rowell is our producer and editor. Alison

57:17

Falsetta is our development producer. Music

57:19

is composed by Chenote Pritchlow. Additional

57:22

production support from Ari Schwartz. And special

57:24

thanks to Katie Long and Sarah Geismar.