0:00

Hi, I'm Jon Favreau co-host of

0:02

Pod Save America and I'm Shaniqua McClendon

0:04

the vice president of politics at Crooked Media We

0:06

haven't relaxed in five years and

0:08

neither should you because the important work

0:10

of political and civic engagement Doesn't just

0:12

happen every two years. I mean they should relax a little

0:15

bit though, right like on weekends That is none

0:17

of my business John. I haven't slept since 2016

0:20

But I do know that Vote Save America's no

0:22

off years program is here to help you stay engaged

0:24

throughout 2023 wait, you haven't

0:27

slept at all right now You can donate to

0:29

our no

0:29

off years fund and sign up to stay in

0:31

the loop on what's happening and how you can get involved

0:33

via remote and in-person volunteer opportunities

0:36

Targeted donations and more just head to

0:38

vote save america.com to get started and

0:41

Shaniqua I don't know take a week off in

0:43

Palm Springs or something

0:50

Hi everyone, I'm Anne Helen Peterson

0:53

and this is work appropriate

0:56

I Over

1:03

the course of the last nine months We've received hundreds

1:06

of work questions and quandaries and I

1:08

have read every single one But our

1:10

producer Melody usually reads them first

1:13

and every so often she'll text me one

1:16

of these questions with the comment

1:18

Truly, what the fuck? Sometimes

1:21

these questions involve a workplace that is behaving

1:24

in truly unbelievable ways But

1:26

more often it involves co-workers saying

1:28

ridiculous offensive or just awkward

1:31

shit at some point We realized

1:33

we had enough of these questions to fill an entire

1:35

episode But I needed someone

1:37

as my co-host who was an expert at

1:39

one Navigating others awkwardness

1:42

and to not putting up with it in the

1:44

name of social niceties

1:48

My name is Virginia Sol Smith I'm the author

1:51

of fat talk parenting in the age of diet culture

1:54

and I write the burnt toast newsletter and host the burnt

1:56

toast Podcast so you didn't say

1:58

I write the New York Times

1:59

best-selling book Fat Talks,

2:03

which congratulations. Thank you. So

2:05

a lot of people, including myself, have said really

2:08

nice things about the book. But a lot

2:10

of people, too, have said really dumb and

2:12

awkward and mean things. They have.

2:15

So what has been your strategy for dealing

2:17

with having all of that in your inbox

2:20

in the comments section? Oh, man. Well,

2:22

I mean, I stay out of the comments sections. That's

2:24

an easy one. Yes, yes. The inbox

2:26

is harder, because I have to go there

2:29

to do my job,

2:29

and then you don't ever know what's coming.

2:33

But most of it, I don't internalize it. It

2:36

is an energy drain to have to read it and sort

2:39

through it. But mostly, it's just

2:41

super interesting to be like, oh, that

2:44

is the thing that is making people really upset

2:46

their feelings about processed

2:48

foods. Or a lot

2:50

of it is just men angry

2:53

at the sheer audacity of

2:55

a fat woman

2:56

existing unapologetically.

2:59

And I can't help them, but

3:03

I will get their emails. Well,

3:05

and that's the thing is that what they really

3:07

want is for fat women to

3:10

invisibilize themselves.

3:12

And you are refusing to do that and also

3:14

suggesting that other people refuse

3:16

to do that and also refuse to

3:18

perpetuate that in their parenting. Right,

3:21

refuse to shrink their kids and make their kids feel like

3:23

they have to be invisible. Yeah, it's really interesting. There's

3:26

this proxy conversation that happens.

3:30

It's about health, and it's about people being lazy,

3:32

and there's all of that. And then there's always

3:34

the troll who's like, well, I just want my kids

3:36

to be pretty, or fat

3:38

women aren't attractive to me. And I'm like, but that's

3:41

what it's really about. Thank you for just saying it more

3:43

clearly for us. I think I

3:45

take a similar tack to you in

3:48

terms of

3:49

hate mail. Mail that is obviously

3:51

not, or even mail that is, quote unquote,

3:54

well-intentioned. I think of it as almost

3:56

like discourse analysis. Like I'm looking

3:58

at what people.

3:59

are sending me to see what

4:02

is touching that nerve. Because that's really interesting,

4:04

right? If you have

4:06

that ability to cultivate that distance,

4:08

to be like,

4:10

oh, this is what is still an incredible

4:12

cultural sensitivity, right? This is still a hot

4:14

wire. Oh, yeah. It's fascinating to

4:16

see how... Because I think the people sending

4:19

the messages often think they

4:21

are saying something I will have never considered

4:23

or that I will have never heard before. Like

4:26

there's a lot of do your research and like,

4:28

are you unaware? I did some research. Yes. I've

4:31

listened to these podcasts. So there's

4:34

a lot of that energy. But

4:36

I can actually look at this set

4:38

of 50 emails and see like three

4:40

themes over and over and over. So

4:42

that is fascinating. But yeah,

4:44

but I also do want to hold space for like, it's

4:46

also fine if it superbumps you out and is traumatic

4:49

to look at because it's a lot of negativity and

4:51

no one deserves it. And it's a weird...

4:54

A lot of people just struggle and are like, well, what are you going to do? And

4:56

you have a book doing well. This

4:58

is an unacceptable cost of working.

5:01

This is not... This is actually too

5:03

high of a price. No one should experience abuse

5:05

in their workplace, which for me, my

5:07

inbox in my book is my workplace. So

5:10

yeah, it's interesting. That

5:12

is so interesting. I can't believe that I have never

5:15

thought of it that way, that the abuse

5:17

that I received online, particularly

5:19

when I was working at BuzzFeed, was

5:22

abuse in the workplace. Yeah. Yeah.

5:24

These are

5:25

our offices. I mean, we're here on the Zoom screen. This is

5:27

our office and all of the messaging

5:30

that comes in this computer at

5:32

us is the office. And

5:34

we'll talk, I think, as this episode goes along

5:37

about the responsibilities that workplaces have

5:39

to make

5:40

safe workplaces for their workers.

5:43

But there's also just how it feels different when

5:45

it's personal, when it's an interpersonal relationship.

5:48

So if someone you knew, like,

5:50

I don't know, like an uncle or a cousin emailed

5:53

you,

5:54

maybe not with the same vitriol, but like with

5:56

a similar critique, it would feel markedly

5:59

different. than some rando on the internet.

6:02

Yeah. Yeah, I mean there at least

6:05

I have a relationship with that person and it

6:08

might benefit both of us to find some

6:10

common ground and to carry each other out

6:12

and to, you know, like for

6:14

the good of our future relationship, I wanna do that

6:17

work. It's interesting

6:19

when you write about issues in a public facing

6:22

way or exist on the internet in any kind of public

6:24

facing way, the number of people who

6:26

feel entitled to a private conversation

6:29

with you about the things they don't like about

6:31

you. That is really

6:33

interesting to me. And I think that is again,

6:36

a unique experience for women

6:38

on the internet or otherwise marginalized folks on

6:40

the internet that we are somehow

6:43

like men think, well, you owe

6:45

me an explanation as opposed to like,

6:47

I could just read all your books and articles

6:49

and get the explanation that

6:52

way. They would like it hand delivered

6:54

to them. The ire when you're like, okay,

6:56

I'm muting you, right? So like you can

6:58

still talk at me, but I'm never gonna see it. I

7:00

always love to say that like you're muted.

7:02

So just so that they know that

7:05

I'm not seated in any capacity. It

7:07

is definitely satisfying. Yeah, yeah.

7:10

So how do you, like, what is your general philosophy

7:12

about how to deal

7:15

with awkward comments,

7:17

mean comments, dumb comments? Like how does it

7:19

shift

7:20

when someone is trying

7:23

to be well intentioned and

7:26

someone who's just kind of like running their mouths? Yeah,

7:28

I think a lot about some really good advice

7:31

I got from Reagan Chastain, who's an incredible

7:33

fat activist and writer. And

7:36

she told me a long time ago, and I think

7:38

this is like good for dealing with trolls, but

7:40

also extrapolates to all sorts of

7:42

interactions. Like you don't owe them

7:44

anything. You don't owe the trolls anything. So

7:47

you don't need to have a protocol about like what's

7:49

best for troll management. You just need to think

7:51

about like what centers your needs in the

7:53

moment. And sometimes it is just like, I don't want to deal. I'm

7:56

going to mute this and block this. Sometimes

7:58

it's like, I feel like making a funny. TikTok

8:00

about this comment and that is satisfying

8:02

for me to sort of share

8:05

it with people who will also be like, what the fuck,

8:07

this is ridiculous. And

8:09

you can just go with whatever makes sense to you.

8:12

And I think about this a lot also

8:14

in context of a comment

8:17

where someone mistakes me for pregnant

8:20

and gets into that or comments

8:22

people make about other people's bodies or food

8:24

habits. The person

8:26

making the comment is the one who can

8:28

feel awkward and uncomfortable. And so

8:30

you only need to worry about

8:33

what will help you in the moment. And it

8:36

doesn't mean you have to come across as like having the

8:38

perfect comeback or rise

8:40

above or any of that. Like you can be a floundering

8:42

mess and walk away and that's fine. That's

8:46

a totally valid way to handle it because none

8:48

of it was your fault to begin with.

8:50

It's not your mess to clean up.

8:52

And I think this is why these sorts

8:54

of comments become particularly difficult

8:56

to deal with in the workplace because

8:59

if you make someone feel awkward, particularly

9:01

someone with more power than you, sometimes

9:04

that can manifest in fascinating

9:07

and troubling ways. There can

9:10

be repercussions that don't necessarily

9:12

look like them responding to what happened,

9:15

but it is. It is a manifestation

9:18

of that awkwardness is them like, okay, well, I'm going

9:20

to make them

9:21

suffer in some way. And

9:24

especially if you're a junior in the workplace,

9:26

like that's a really difficult place to be. Oh, a

9:28

hundred percent. And I mean, this is why we

9:31

really need more systemic protections

9:33

in place. This is why it's such a victory

9:35

that New York city just passed a fat rights law

9:38

that's going to apply to size

9:40

discrimination in the workplace and housing

9:42

and healthcare settings. Like, you know,

9:44

this is why we need those protections

9:47

codified because

9:50

whenever you have to take that power imbalance

9:52

into account, you then have

9:54

a completely different set of calculations. And if there's

9:57

no larger protections in place, which

9:59

in my places there aren't when

10:01

it comes to weight comments and really

10:03

with so many of these comments we're gonna get into,

10:07

that's a whole different conversation.

10:09

So this is a great segue into our first

10:11

question. So the last time you were on Work Appropriate

10:13

we talked about specifically handling

10:15

fat phobia and anti-fat bias at

10:17

work. So

10:19

this first question is in a similar vein

10:21

and it's from Morgan and our producer Melody

10:23

is going to read it. I have an older co-worker

10:26

who makes so many unnecessary

10:28

and problematic comments about food. Sometimes

10:30

this is regarding our office snacks, special

10:33

treats we order, or baked goods that I occasionally

10:35

bring in. They will make comments about how

10:37

they shouldn't have it or that people are trying to

10:39

give them diabetes. A comment

10:42

I feel really crossed the line is when a Muslim

10:44

co-worker said they were fasting and the co-workers

10:47

immediate response was to ask

10:49

how much weight this person loses during Ramadan.

10:52

No one in our office forces food on anyone

10:54

else. If anyone chooses not to

10:57

eat food it's not a big deal. Despite

10:59

all the comments this person makes about food in the

11:01

workplace they still eat the food that

11:03

is brought in. I feel like they are saying

11:05

these things to fill space or make conversation

11:08

or process their own food trauma.

11:11

I don't want to make a big deal out of it but it bothers

11:13

me a lot and I find it a little triggering

11:15

and can't imagine that there aren't other people

11:18

in our workplace who find it upsetting

11:19

too. And yet just saying

11:21

hey everything you say about food is

11:23

problematic does not feel like

11:25

a plausible solution. Okay so

11:27

the Ramadan comment

11:30

first of all I really hope that the person on the receiving

11:32

end of that question documented it somewhere

11:35

but

11:36

Virginia a lot of these comments seem

11:38

to be happening in a group setting

11:40

around the snack table or

11:42

whatever it is but what do you think

11:44

Morgan's options are if she wants to take this co-worker

11:47

on? I

11:48

mean first I just have to say I'm having like

11:50

a PTSD flashback to my women's

11:52

magazine years where every

11:54

tray of Magnolia bakery cupcakes

11:57

that came into the office which was like for some

11:59

reason all the time.

11:59

was like then all of

12:02

the women's magazine editors standing around the cupcakes

12:05

saying they couldn't have the cupcakes, they were being bad,

12:07

maybe taking like a sliver of trying to like split

12:09

a cupcake between eight people, which is an

12:12

absurd concept. They are individually

12:14

fortunate, you can just eat one. So

12:17

I have a lot of empathy because this

12:20

is a very common narrative. And

12:22

I also, I hear it a lot from teachers too. I

12:25

think particularly in women dominated workspaces, this

12:27

is common, obviously not just that, but

12:30

the thing to understand is this

12:33

is someone performing their own body

12:35

and relationship with food. Although

12:38

they're making comments about other people, they're really

12:40

talking about themselves and they're

12:42

really talking about the fact that

12:44

they don't feel like they have permission to

12:47

eat the cupcake or be in their body

12:50

in a public way. And so I think

12:52

that can help just to find a little compassion

12:55

for the fact that this isn't

12:57

really about the other people. This is somebody's own

12:59

struggle that they are narrating

13:02

in a very uncomfortable way for the rest

13:04

of us. That said, yeah,

13:07

it's not okay, it's not comfortable,

13:09

it's triggering for you, it's triggering for your colleagues.

13:13

The Muslim colleague in particular should

13:15

not have had to experience that. So

13:18

I think one strategy would

13:21

be to think about how you could adopt

13:24

some language as a workplace

13:26

community that

13:29

is there some way, and this might be a job for your

13:32

DEI committee or something where you

13:34

can adopt, we are a food neutral office

13:37

and we don't make comments about foods and bodies

13:39

and maybe this is a graphic

13:41

up in the break room or an email

13:44

that goes out. So it's not targeting this one person,

13:47

but it's giving some

13:49

framework for the fact that these comments aren't

13:51

okay and sort of a starting point for bigger

13:53

conversations about it.

13:55

Yeah, I love that you point out that there's

13:57

a way to feel a little bit of sympathy

13:59

for them.

13:59

person. I read this and I'm like, I'm

14:02

really sad for this person. They

14:04

clearly have

14:05

a difficult relationship with their own

14:07

body and feel shame

14:09

about eating and eating in

14:12

public in general. And like you said, need to narrativize

14:14

it. And

14:15

I do wonder, depending on the workplace, if

14:18

something like a food neutral workplace, like

14:20

if that is something that would not fly in the workplace

14:22

for, you know, sometimes that's just the

14:25

character of the workplace. It wouldn't have flown

14:27

in a women's magazine, that's for sure. Right. Sometimes

14:32

I think having one conversation, like maybe no

14:34

one has ever said to this person, when

14:36

you make those counter comments, it's really hard

14:39

for me. Yeah, that's a great point.

14:41

Takes courage, but to even sit down

14:43

and just kind of be vulnerable.

14:45

And even if it's playing up more

14:48

of your own reaction than is necessarily

14:51

the case, just be like, it's really hard for me when you say

14:53

stuff like that. And I would say personally,

14:56

because I do have a complicated history with food,

14:58

I would be like, I have a complicated history with food.

15:00

And it's really hard for me when I hear things

15:02

like that, that bring me back to that place in my

15:04

life. Yeah. And I would look for a way

15:06

to have that conversation, not

15:09

at the like conference table

15:11

with everybody around, but maybe

15:14

not even in the moment, you know, like maybe

15:16

this is something you swing by their desk

15:19

a few days later and like, or go to

15:21

lunch with them and like a one-on-one context.

15:23

Yeah. If that doesn't feel possible,

15:26

something I like to do whenever these moments

15:29

come up, and I feel like I have to navigate it in the moment,

15:31

is just look for the most straightforward way

15:34

to put the blame back on the system

15:36

of diet culture and anti-fat bias. So if

15:39

you can say something

15:41

like, Oh, I hate that this culture makes us

15:43

feel like we have to apologize for eating this food, you

15:45

know, that's not antagonistic

15:47

to your coworker who's making the comments. It's actually

15:49

kind of aligning you with them. Like, Oh, I'm

15:51

seeing you have to do that. And I'm really

15:54

sorry, you're having to do that. And I'm really sorry.

15:56

We all feel like we have to do that. So

15:59

that could also be another way.

15:59

because it's also possible in addition to no

16:02

one ever saying to this person, this doesn't

16:04

feel good for me, probably nobody

16:06

has said to this person, you shouldn't have

16:08

to do this. You shouldn't have to perform

16:10

your body this way. And so opening

16:13

the doors to that conversation could be huge

16:15

for both of you. So I was just rereading

16:18

the question to see if there's any indication of what gender

16:21

this person is, who is making these comments.

16:23

And it doesn't, it's not apparent. I

16:25

can see a world in which if you

16:27

try to

16:29

gently point this out,

16:31

that then in the future, every time that

16:33

like cupcakes show up, they're like, oh,

16:35

but I can't say this around Morgan, because

16:38

you know what I mean? Like they double back on it and

16:40

kind of make it into a joke that then feels

16:42

like even more annoying. Yep. That's

16:44

a real possibility. So

16:46

we just want to acknowledge that possibility. But

16:49

I also think that the best first

16:51

approach is either to think about a

16:53

group solution, because I think that's

16:56

powerful for the culture of an office. Yeah. That

16:58

would be a really cool thing. But then

17:00

the second route would be having that one-on-one

17:02

conversation.

17:04

And even if the one-on-one conversation goes

17:06

badly, and they do start doubling

17:08

back and making those jokes, well, it was already uncomfortable,

17:10

right? So now it's just still uncomfortable,

17:13

but at least you were able

17:15

to say something. And that benefits

17:18

everyone else who's uncomfortable, because

17:20

now at least you've articulated that in

17:23

some productive way, even if the person making the

17:25

comments doesn't actually change their behavior. Yeah.

17:28

And I want to also say that like nothing that this

17:30

person has said is explicitly anti-fat

17:32

bias, right? Explicitly.

17:35

Yeah. Yeah. It's real baked in there, but

17:37

yeah. Totally baked in there. Well,

17:39

asking about weight loss.

17:41

Yeah, that's pretty anti-fat. The reason

17:43

I ask is even in New York, where

17:45

these laws have been passed, how would this

17:48

even be handled if you brought it to HRSA?

17:50

It's definitely a gray area. I mean, the law

17:52

is so new. I don't think we've had

17:54

a chance to test it yet. They just voted like two weeks

17:57

ago. So it's certainly the kind of thing that

17:59

I would hope. we would be getting some protection

18:01

for, but I agree, it's a gray area, especially

18:03

because so many of the comments are more about food

18:06

than they are specific about bodies,

18:08

and they're not about... Right. I

18:10

mean, the Ramadan comment, because

18:13

it's like both about religion and body,

18:16

maybe is falling into a different category

18:18

there. Like you said, that's one to document. This

18:20

is just a good time to also say that people

18:24

who are not Muslim often ask people

18:26

in burkas say, like, aren't

18:28

you so hot in there?

18:29

Right? Other people's

18:32

religion is not a spectacle

18:35

for you to ask questions about. Right. And

18:37

I think that sometimes people think that they're being inquisitive

18:40

or like trying to show interest and

18:43

just don't do that. Don't

18:47

be inquisitive when you really are...what

18:49

you're really doing is objectifying it.

18:52

Yeah. Turning it into just

18:54

like the clothing or the eating habits

18:56

or that sort of thing. I think like you could...a more

18:58

interesting question. There's so many different ways that you

19:00

could ask a question about the experience

19:03

of Ramadan. Right? Like, what's the

19:05

meal called that you eat when you break fast? And like, what's

19:07

your favorite thing to eat for that? Right. Instead

19:10

of how much weight do you

19:12

think that you lose during fasting?

19:18

Our next question is from someone who has just

19:20

totally had it with jokes that are not funny.

19:23

This is from Lisa and our PR manager Ashley is

19:25

going to read it for us. I have a coworker

19:28

age 37 who teases me about my

19:30

age, 52. I think it's most likely

19:32

her acting out about her own age and looking

19:34

at 40, but it's super annoying. Any

19:37

suggestions on a good way to respond? I've

19:40

mostly been quiet about it, but have these

19:42

responses locked and loaded.

19:44

Being younger doesn't mean you're cooler. Everything

19:47

over 30 is old, so you're in the same boat, etc, etc.

19:50

I feel like it's petty to even respond, but

19:53

it's getting old having to deal with it.

19:55

What do you think of this assessment that the younger coworker

19:58

is acting out of her own insecurity? Virginia.

20:00

I'm

20:01

sure that's true. I mean ageism, experiences

20:03

of ageism for women start at 35, so

20:06

if not younger in a lot of workplaces.

20:09

So I'm sure that is what's happening. But

20:13

in acting out her own anxieties

20:15

around aging, she is perpetrating

20:18

ageism against her older coworker

20:21

who is a protected class. So

20:23

this is another one where you could

20:25

be documenting this and bringing it to HR

20:27

because this is workplace harassment. Yeah.

20:30

And I'm sure that this person would

20:33

die if someone said this is workplace

20:35

harassment. Yeah, absolutely. They're like, I

20:37

was just joking. But it is like the

20:39

seriousness of this is apparent. And

20:41

I think that that's validating to say,

20:44

like I think sometimes people are

20:46

told that there's a certain type of treatment that they

20:48

just have to deal with, like a certain type of razzing

20:50

that's just like, oh, that's what it's like

20:52

to be in a workplace. And it doesn't have to be that way.

20:55

No. And I can understand there may be a thousand

20:57

reasons why the actual pathway

20:59

of going to HR doesn't feel useful

21:01

or viable to you.

21:03

But I do. That's why I just want to

21:05

name like that is what's happening. And

21:07

regardless of what action steps you take, you are

21:10

valid to be angry about this.

21:12

You are being discriminated against. This

21:14

is not okay. Making jokes about people's

21:16

age is unacceptable. So

21:19

do you think this is another one where

21:21

if this

21:22

older woman said even just one time,

21:24

like, this really hurts my

21:26

feeling and makes me feel vulnerable. Like if they

21:29

showed that, do you think that that would be effective? I

21:31

think it might. I mean,

21:34

she doesn't say really how

21:37

friendly they are or how sort of like, you know,

21:39

I'm curious to know more about their relationship.

21:42

And is this a case of the younger person

21:44

really

21:45

just not reading the room

21:47

and thinking that they have a closeness

21:50

where this kind of banter is allowed? Yeah. And

21:53

that this, you know, the younger person may have a very

21:55

different interpretation of it. That doesn't mean that,

21:58

you know, intent is not impact. And. this

22:01

is still harmful. But if that's the case, that would

22:03

be all the more reason to say, hey, we're

22:05

friends, I really value our relationship as colleagues.

22:08

These comments really bum me out and it

22:10

doesn't feel good for me when you say that. And

22:12

seeing if that elicited the

22:14

correct response. But

22:16

if it's like

22:18

someone you don't have a close relationship

22:20

with, it's hard to tell from the email

22:22

the level of sort of barbedness to

22:24

the comments. And that's, I'm kind

22:27

of wondering about that.

22:28

You know, I think about the fact that

22:30

I am older than my partner. And

22:32

so sometimes when I was like, oh, when I was in high

22:35

school and he's like, oh yeah, during the Roosevelt

22:37

administration. And like, because we have

22:39

an intimacy and closeness,

22:42

like it doesn't feel offensive

22:45

to me. Like I don't feel vulnerable. Like it's just

22:47

hilarious to me. You know, when I'm talking

22:49

about how we didn't have Facebook when I was in college,

22:52

it's like, did you have telegraphs?

22:55

Like what was going on? But

22:58

that

22:58

too is my, like I'm emphasizing

23:00

how much older, like how different things were. But

23:03

this does not seem to be the case of what's happening.

23:05

What do you think about any of

23:08

Lisa's responses? Like being

23:10

a snappier response?

23:12

Well, again, I always, you know, as we

23:14

sort of talked about, I think whatever feels good to you in

23:16

the moment is totally valid and worth saying. I

23:19

will say though, the responses don't

23:22

undo ages. Like they're sort

23:24

of still playing into

23:26

the ages. And so if

23:29

you want to tackle that more directly, saying

23:32

something more directly about

23:34

how this is ageism, I mean, that's not a snappy

23:36

comeback, but it is a fact. You

23:39

know, or, you know, I

23:41

think so often in our conversations

23:44

around aging, there's an interesting

23:46

thing happening where we are

23:48

still not questioning the premise that nobody

23:51

wants to get older and the aging is bad

23:53

and to be avoided at all costs. And

23:55

so often when older people experience

23:58

these comments, and this is, you know, similar to what. happens

24:00

with fatness, right? We experience

24:02

these comments and the assumption is it

24:04

was unkind to say because it's true

24:06

as opposed to it's unkind to

24:08

say because it's offensive. And

24:11

that's a really important distinction to make.

24:14

Aging is actually, I would

24:16

argue, the ideal scenario

24:18

for most of us, like I would prefer it to

24:21

death at a young age. So I'm

24:23

pro-aging. I think we

24:25

can reframe the whole narrative around aging. As

24:28

the 52-year-old colleague, you have years

24:30

of wisdom and experience that your younger colleague

24:32

can learn from. There's so much

24:35

power there. We should be celebrating

24:37

this process. There's just a whole cultural

24:39

narrative that needs reframing. And that's

24:41

difficult for you to take on in a workplace

24:44

conversation like this.

24:45

And depending again on the relationship

24:48

between these two, I wonder how she could

24:50

maybe use this as an opportunity

24:52

to say, like, I love

24:54

being 52. And especially if this

24:56

younger

24:58

coworker is maybe acting out some

25:00

of her anxieties about aging, it

25:03

has been incredibly powerful for me as

25:05

I get older to hear older women

25:07

talking about how every decade is better. Yeah.

25:10

And it is, by the way. I mean, we are both

25:12

in the 40s. It's great.

25:14

Well, I'm in my 40s. Are you in your 40s? I forget. I

25:16

think we're like the exact same age. I just turned 42. Oh,

25:18

I just turned 42 as well. Okay. Yeah. The 40s are amazing. I loved

25:21

my 30s, but they're way better than

25:24

my 30s. They're for sure better

25:27

than my 20s. Good Lord. I know,

25:29

right? Well, and I think, like, there's

25:31

a way to say, you know, if we don't

25:33

want to make it into this comparison too, you don't have

25:36

to be like, I wouldn't give anything to

25:38

be 37 again. Like, you don't have to make

25:40

it derogatory. It can be more

25:42

like, I've really enjoyed aging. Like,

25:44

I just love where I am right now. It

25:47

is a really cool place to be. And that's

25:49

the sort of thing that someone is not expecting. Yes.

25:52

I love that. Because there

25:54

is this expectation that when someone teases you about

25:56

being older, that you have to, like, you somehow

25:59

fulfill the stereotype.

25:59

and are like, oh yeah, when I wake up in the

26:02

morning, everything hurts. Just you wait, you

26:04

know? Yeah. And

26:06

again, I think, too, there's the option of

26:08

pivoting to the larger system. Ageism

26:11

is also a systemic oppression. So I'm

26:13

just so sick of this narrative that women aren't allowed to age.

26:16

I'm just sick of this idea that somehow I'm not supposed

26:18

to like being 52 when I love being 52. And

26:21

then you're not saying to your colleague, you are the

26:23

problem. You're helping them with their own anxieties.

26:26

And we don't have to be so afraid of this thing. Yeah,

26:28

this is not a dialogue

26:29

that we have to have. This is not a back and

26:32

forth, like a performative back and forth about aging

26:34

that we have to have. Yeah.

26:39

Hi folks, it's me, Chris Gethard, and I host

26:41

Beautiful Anonymous. Every week I talk

26:43

to one anonymous person on the phone for an hour. Sometimes

26:45

it's funny, sometimes it's inspirational. It gets

26:47

heartbreaking, it gets dark, all of the

26:50

above. I've talked to somebody who found love in

26:52

a mental hospital. Talked to a woman who was about

26:54

to turn herself over to federal authorities. A mother

26:56

waiting on the results of her daughter's cancer diagnosis.

26:59

So many more. Look out for a new episode

27:01

of Beautiful Anonymous every Tuesday. Listen and

27:03

subscribe to Beautiful Anonymous on Stitcher, Apple

27:05

Podcasts, the SiriusXM app,

27:07

or your favorite podcast

27:09

app. Hi,

27:11

it's Ted here, the unofficial spokesperson

27:13

for Consumer Cellular with some very

27:16

official advice.

27:18

All right, how do I put this lightly? Your

27:20

wireless provider is overcharging

27:23

you. No, that was easier than

27:25

I thought it would be. So, get

27:27

the exact same coverage as the major

27:29

carriers at half the cost. Switch

27:32

and save up to $250 a year on

27:35

all the talk, text, and data you

27:37

need at ConsumerCellular.com.

27:43

On a very special episode of Stuck with Damon Young,

27:45

Damon is joined by marijuana and hip hop mogul Wiz

27:48

Khalifa. Together, they engage

27:50

in a discussion that covers Wiz Khalifa's

27:52

Pittsburgh accent, the influential

27:54

role played by his son in keeping him informed

27:56

about current trends, the dynamic

27:58

nature of the evolving.

27:59

cannabis industry and the significance

28:02

of maintaining good health. Don't miss this episode.

28:04

Listen to Stuck with Damon Young for free

28:07

on Spotify.

28:11

Our next question could be described as actions

28:14

speak just as awkwardly as words. So

28:16

this is from Sally and our colleague Caroline

28:19

is going to read it.

28:20

A few months ago, my job was split back

28:22

into two positions and someone was hired

28:24

to be my partner. My new partner

28:26

is very nice and I've enjoyed getting to know

28:29

her and we have a very good rapport. My

28:31

problem is that she's touchy and

28:33

I don't mind the occasional hug or pat on the

28:36

back from a coworker, but her level of touching

28:38

is uncomfortable. She often comes

28:40

up behind me unexpectedly and gives me a long

28:43

hug. When I say something funny, she

28:45

squeezes my knee or lower thigh.

28:47

If we sit next to each other, she will rest

28:49

her leg on my leg or her head on

28:51

my shoulder. The

28:53

first couple times that happened, I told her

28:55

I'm not a touchy person

28:57

and that seemed to help things for a few weeks.

28:59

But then it continued. We are both

29:02

straight females in our late twenties with the

29:04

same job position.

29:05

Is it too late to say something now? Is

29:08

this normal?

29:09

Am I the weird one for not wanting to be touched?

29:13

You are not the weird one. Oh my gosh, I'm so

29:15

uncomfortable with this question. I

29:17

know, but sometimes, sometimes in Virginia, I'm like, oh, are

29:20

we just wafts who like, can't

29:22

like, sure. Yes,

29:24

absolutely. But also it's okay to

29:26

not want to be touched in the workplace. I

29:29

don't want to be touched in the workplace at all. And

29:33

good for Sally for trying to say something.

29:36

So what does she do now? I

29:38

mean, again, this is, if

29:41

this were a straight man or a man

29:43

period, you would have a very straightforward

29:45

case and sexual harassment

29:48

is not defined by

29:50

sexual preferences and sexual identity, right?

29:52

Like straight people can harass other straight

29:54

people. Like, you know, it

29:56

can like do straight women. You can still

29:58

have that being the dynamic.

29:59

So if

30:02

she is not open to conversation about

30:04

it,

30:05

then that is definitely,

30:08

again, going to HR with us seems pretty clear

30:10

cut to me and pretty necessary because

30:13

your body belongs to you and it's

30:16

not for her to, I mean, the leg

30:19

on your leg and a meeting, like what is happening?

30:22

What industry is this? No. I

30:24

know what industry. I

30:26

wonder how much to, depending

30:29

on the industry, like do

30:31

they think like, oh, we're like best friend? Like,

30:33

you know, it's a sort of intimacy that you would have with a friend

30:35

and maybe

30:35

they think like their coworkers are their best friends,

30:38

like that sort of thing.

30:39

And if it's like a very intense workplace

30:42

where there's lots of late hours and there's all those blurred

30:44

life work boundaries

30:46

where we all sort of are in it all together,

30:48

I mean, that leads to so many problematic

30:51

breaking down of reasonable boundaries.

30:54

So I'm getting a note from Melody that

30:56

they work as clinical research coordinators.

30:59

So in like a hospital setting. So

31:01

yeah, that's like kind of intense, but also

31:03

not

31:05

what I would necessarily expect to

31:08

generate this sort of intimacy. No, that's

31:10

not the tech startup with no boundaries.

31:14

I wonder if it's worth one more conversation

31:17

before HR, being like, we talked

31:19

about this before,

31:20

it still makes me really uncomfortable. I

31:23

really hope that you can stop or something. You know what

31:25

I mean? Yeah, I think given that

31:27

they are friends, having one more conversation

31:29

makes sense.

31:31

But I do think it's a conversation where you need to

31:33

lay out some stakes and say,

31:37

I know this is well intentioned from you. I

31:39

am truly not comfortable with this. I'm

31:41

saying this to you as clearly as I can. And

31:44

if this isn't something you can understand, I'm

31:46

going to have to loop in, you know,

31:49

like there is a process here. And

31:52

I hope that this person can understand it, but there's

31:55

also the fact that sometimes when people have those conversations,

31:57

there are repercussions. And so.

31:59

that is something to just

32:02

be aware of and know that you really deserve support

32:04

on this and you don't

32:07

have to be okay with this. Yeah,

32:09

I think this is one of those scenarios where a lot of people

32:11

would say,

32:12

do I wanna deal with the awkwardness of them touching

32:15

me or do I wanna deal with the awkwardness

32:17

of the repercussions of this conversation

32:20

and they choose the awkwardness of them touching me?

32:23

You know? Bakes my heart out. And

32:25

I understand that and I can see myself

32:27

like making a similar decision at different points

32:29

in my life, but it doesn't

32:32

have to be this way. Your

32:35

work should not demand,

32:37

like having a peaceful work scenario should

32:39

not mean that you are touched in ways that make you feel uncomfortable

32:42

on a daily basis. Yeah, and I would love

32:44

if this person really is your friend and

32:47

they are open to hearing this, it

32:49

can become something you joke about. It can become

32:51

something that's like,

32:53

there's a world

32:55

where it turns into a

32:58

sort of thing we dealt with and we can move on from

33:00

in a productive way. And there's a world where it

33:02

doesn't and you have to go the other route. And

33:05

if it goes that way, that is not your fault. That's

33:07

not because you didn't handle it right. That's not because, you

33:10

know, that is because this person chooses

33:12

not to respond to your feedback

33:15

and your very valid boundary with

33:17

respect. Yeah, that's important I think.

33:19

Like let's say this ends up with

33:21

you getting a new partner.

33:23

That's not your fault, right? You aren't being a problem.

33:26

They were being a problem. Yeah, yeah, 100%.

33:30

Yeah. So our last question is

33:32

so relatable and it's about dealing with

33:34

a negative Nancy. This comes

33:36

from

33:37

Abden. I have a coworker in my department

33:39

who is constantly miserable and complaining

33:41

about her basic job duties.

33:43

Despite our boss's very reasonable efforts

33:45

to offer resources and assistance, she

33:48

dismisses him, privately berates

33:50

him and refuses to change.

33:52

I've tried to offer help,

33:54

be supportive and express sympathy if

33:56

she were to consider quitting.

33:58

Nothing has worked. How do I

34:00

communicate to her that her attitude is negatively

34:02

affecting everyone else at the company?

34:05

I have some experience with people who

34:07

are similar to this. And sometimes

34:10

they're called negative people, pessimists,

34:14

complainers.

34:15

What's interesting, if you talk more with

34:17

them about it, I think, if you

34:19

dig down deeper,

34:21

they would probably not say like, I'm miserable,

34:23

I wanna quit my job.

34:25

This person doesn't wanna quit their job. This

34:27

is their way of processing. Everyday

34:30

life.

34:31

Yeah, that makes sense. Is they articulate

34:33

through like talking about what is bad

34:35

about it. In the same way that sometimes

34:37

I go through my life and I'm like, oh, that's annoying,

34:40

but I'm gonna try to think about something else that I

34:43

actually like doing, right? And

34:45

I think the thing to understand is that people

34:48

are conditioned

34:49

to respond that way

34:51

by their parents, other

34:53

people who

34:54

are around them when they're growing up, caregivers.

34:58

There are so many things that can condition you

35:01

to process in that capacity. I

35:03

think a big one is when you feel like, and

35:05

I don't think the question talked about how senior this person

35:08

is, but when you feel like you don't have a lot of power in the

35:10

situation, and maybe you really

35:12

legitimately don't have a lot of power, there

35:15

can be interpersonal drama among assistants,

35:18

like more junior employees in a workplace or

35:21

in lower income jobs. There's

35:23

no changing the larger framework of the shittiness

35:25

of things. So what you have is venting

35:28

and letting out your feelings and frustrations about

35:30

how bad so-and-so is. Yep,

35:33

and coming to understand that, it took me a long

35:35

time. It took me until my late 30s

35:38

to understand that these people that

35:40

are in part of my life, they're not just bummers, right?

35:42

They're not worse people. They are just processing

35:45

really differently than I process. And

35:47

for me, as someone who is not like that, a

35:50

useful tool has been to say,

35:53

do you want help processing this or are you just

35:55

venting? Yeah, do you want

35:57

solutions and ideas or do you just want to let

35:59

it out?

35:59

out. Right. But

36:02

then the other thing too is if they're venting this much,

36:04

they feel like they are not

36:06

being authenticated in the things that are

36:08

hard. And that can mean outside of

36:10

the workplace too. If this were

36:12

a friend of mine, I would be like, you

36:15

should consider therapy. Yeah. What

36:17

else is going on? Yeah. How's

36:19

your religion, Jeps? Yeah. How's your

36:21

family set up? Like the, yeah, it's that

36:23

lack of power thing may translate to a lot

36:26

of different scenarios here.

36:27

Yeah. And maybe they don't have

36:29

anyone else to talk to about things

36:32

that are really hard in their lives. But

36:35

that doesn't mean you have to be the person they talk

36:37

to exclusively about things that are hard in their lives.

36:40

Right. And that's, that's something, right? Like

36:42

the, you know, emotional dumping, that's kind of, this is

36:44

like a workplace version of emotional dumping.

36:47

And that's not a healthy relationship characteristic.

36:50

So you can understand it and not excuse

36:52

it. Yeah. Yeah. Which

36:55

would we give to, to Apten about like

36:57

how to respond to this other

36:59

than like, are you venting right now? I love

37:01

that as a starting point. And I

37:03

think

37:05

maybe if the answer is I just need to vent,

37:08

Apten can say, okay, you know, I've

37:10

got like 10 minutes before my next whatever

37:12

thing, let's do it. And sort of set

37:15

some boundaries around how available

37:17

you make yourself for this. Yes.

37:20

And you don't have to go to drinks after work.

37:22

If you know, it's just going to be this. You don't have to

37:24

go to lunch with this person. You know, like you

37:27

can put some limits around how much

37:29

time you spend

37:31

down in this sort of wallow session with them.

37:33

Yeah. I think you can also, it's fair to understand

37:36

that like talking with this person

37:38

in the place where they are right now, it

37:41

makes you feel shitty. They're

37:43

your coworker. They're not your best friend. They're

37:45

not your family member. Like you do not, you

37:47

are not responsible for their wellbeing. Right. And

37:50

if you're okay to, I think, draw some of those lines around

37:53

the interactions that you want to have with them, that doesn't

37:55

mean you're a bad person. Yeah. And

37:58

I think that really resonates because I think those of us.

37:59

who are more fixer,

38:02

problem solving oriented people often

38:06

fall into the role of fixing and problem

38:08

solving for everybody in a workplace

38:11

or in any system we're a part of. And

38:13

so asking yourself like, am

38:16

I taking on more of this? Then they're even

38:18

asking me to take on. Right, because

38:20

they probably don't realize that they are

38:23

dumping it on you. For them, they just need

38:25

to get it out of their system, they need to

38:27

dump it or not realizing the destination

38:29

of that dumpage, which

38:32

is on the people around them.

38:35

Okay, like the last thing that I will note is that

38:38

it seems clear from the question that maybe this

38:40

isn't just an interpersonal thing, like it's not

38:42

just Apten and this coworker

38:44

who are having these negative interactions. And

38:47

Apten kind of wants to

38:49

tell her that she's sucking

38:51

the lifeblood out of the team.

38:54

What is your thoughts on

38:57

that? Because I think this is actually poor management.

39:00

This is not Apten's job, this is the

39:02

manager's job. Yeah, I think

39:05

it's like we were just saying, is this Apten

39:08

wanting to be the fixer and maybe that's

39:10

not

39:11

necessarily the role they need to play

39:13

and can this be something a manager needs to get in

39:15

and address with her versus, because

39:17

if it's impacting the whole team, that's not

39:20

on any one team member to solve. And

39:23

Apten says, despite our bosses very reasonable

39:25

efforts to offer resources and assistance, she

39:27

dismisses him, privately berates him, refuses

39:29

to change. Like

39:31

manager needs to try again, but also if Apten

39:34

wants to talk more about it, they should talk with their

39:36

manager about this

39:38

is really affecting the team. And

39:41

maybe this is a scenario where

39:43

this team member is not a good fit,

39:45

right? Like she needs to go if

39:48

she's not going to change,

39:50

but also that's not Apten's responsibility.

39:54

Yeah, I think the best thing Apten can

39:56

do is kind of be

39:58

in conversation with the manager

39:59

needed and set the boundaries

40:02

that they want to set around how much

40:04

they're involved in now. And the other

40:06

team members can do that too. I think there's

40:08

a troubling dynamic that could

40:11

pop up here where everyone's kind of gossiping

40:13

about how terrible she is and that's

40:16

only making it all worse. So

40:19

looking for ways to kind of step out of

40:21

that dynamic seems important.

40:27

Hi folks, it's me, Chris Gethard, and I host

40:29

Beautiful Anonymous. Every week I talk

40:31

to one anonymous person on the phone for an hour. Sometimes

40:34

it's funny, sometimes inspirational, it gets heartbreaking,

40:36

it gets dark, all of the above. I've

40:39

talked to somebody who found love in a mental hospital, talked

40:41

to a woman who's about to turn herself over to federal

40:43

authorities, a mother waiting on the results of her

40:45

daughter's cancer diagnosis, so many more.

40:48

Look out for a new episode of Beautiful Anonymous every

40:50

Tuesday. Listen and subscribe to Beautiful Anonymous

40:53

on Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, the Sirius

40:55

XM app, or your favorite podcast

40:57

app.

41:00

Okay,

41:05

so we did an episode with our mutual

41:07

friend, Liz Lenz, a couple months ago about annoying

41:10

things coworkers do like send emails and

41:12

their dog's voices. And we got so

41:14

many questions for this one that we want to do another

41:16

quick lightning round. So we asked for questions

41:19

about

41:19

dumb things that your coworkers have

41:22

said, and we got so many people who wrote in. So to

41:24

cram as many into this episode as possible,

41:26

we're going to do another one. So Melody is going

41:28

to read the questions and we're going to give ourselves like

41:30

two minutes to answer. Let's see how many we get through. My

41:33

boss called me to his office to say, you're

41:35

gay, right? He followed up with asking

41:37

me to be on our corporation's pride float. I

41:40

couldn't believe he would out me then use

41:42

me as a token. What should I do? Oh my

41:44

God. Call HR, call HR. Are

41:48

these offices without human resources to I

41:50

mean, I think we have to remember that there

41:52

are so many without a human resources or, or where

41:56

the HR has established itself as adversarial.

41:58

Right. That is

41:59

But if that's not the case, this

42:02

is an HR application. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

42:05

Huge value issue. Not okay.

42:07

Absolutely not, yeah. And sometimes people I think write in because

42:10

they want us to say this is not okay, this is

42:13

not okay. There is no world in which it would

42:15

be remotely okay, any part of that conversation.

42:18

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Okay.

42:21

Let's go. Melody

42:23

number two. I was turned down for a job. The candidate they chose

42:25

had more project planning experience than I do,

42:28

but I had direct experience doing part of

42:30

the project they were beginning. After I was

42:32

turned down, the hiring manager emailed

42:34

me to ask if we could chat about the experience

42:37

I had that their new employee didn't. He's

42:39

basically requesting the knowledge he turned

42:41

down by not hiring me, and I can't believe

42:43

he doesn't see how this comes off. I don't

42:45

want to burn the bridge, but I do want to tell him

42:47

that's not okay. How do I respond?

42:51

Burn that bridge. Burn it.

42:54

Burn it down. It is not a useful bridge. You

42:56

don't want to walk over that bridge. What do you need that bridge

42:58

for? Seriously,

43:00

you don't want to be hired by this person? No.

43:04

It is totally inappropriate that they

43:06

emailed asking for this knowledge, and again,

43:08

it's okay. You don't have to email back

43:11

with like, screw you. You'd

43:13

be like, I don't feel comfortable. I don't know.

43:16

How would you respond here? Well, as a freelancer,

43:18

we always have the option of saying, I'd be happy

43:20

to share that. This is how much it'll cost you. As

43:24

an employee, you don't usually have

43:27

that option, but I want there to be some equivalent.

43:30

If you are going to provide that labor

43:33

and institutional

43:34

knowledge, you should be compensated for

43:36

it. Yeah.

43:37

You could be like, oh, that would be

43:40

some knowledge that I would be happy to impart

43:42

if I were part of the insert company

43:44

name here. That

43:46

might sound

43:47

kind of weird, but I think it will get the

43:50

message across. And also, if there's some

43:52

documentation or meeting

43:54

minutes, you can say, I think most of that's

43:57

over here, and just

43:58

go do the work.

43:59

go read whatever you need to read and like you

44:02

can do this work. I'm not going to do it for you.

44:04

Yeah.

44:04

All right. Melody, question three. What do you do

44:06

if you have a colleague who is extremely rude via

44:09

email? I have a colleague who emails

44:11

as if she is texting someone she hates. Every

44:14

time I receive an email from her, my blood boils.

44:17

Should I address it with her or HR or

44:19

my supervisor? Should I email her back

44:21

the way she emails me or be annoyingly

44:23

pleasant in my responses?

44:25

I want to see the emails because my guess

44:27

is that she's probably just like using periods instead

44:30

of exclamation points. Or no punctuation

44:32

is another common, you

44:34

know, like misstep. I think email

44:37

is the land of misinterpreted tone and

44:39

she may not hate you like

44:41

at all. She just has no idea how she's coming across.

44:44

Yeah. Or she's emailing like a man. Right?

44:47

To be very clear, there are very gendered expectations

44:49

of how men and women should email. And

44:52

I think, you know, I had a colleague at BuzzFeed

44:54

who once spent a week emailing

44:55

like a man and just like got so

44:58

much done. Because

45:00

you didn't have to find all the damn unicorn emojis

45:02

and stick them in there. And

45:05

I also had a, I have a good friend who was

45:07

actually recently a co-host on the podcast

45:09

who people thought she came across as kind of bitchy

45:11

in her email and she had

45:14

to like force herself to use more exclamation

45:16

points on that sort of thing because it softens her

45:19

her mode of address. So I think for

45:21

this person, I would ask them to

45:24

just reconsider. Yeah.

45:26

What maybe makes them think that

45:28

she is being mean. I also have a friend who does

45:31

voice to text on her text to me, which

45:33

creates a period at the end of sentences. And I'm always

45:35

like, oh, this is so annoying. You

45:37

don't have to be final in your texts.

45:40

And it's truly, she told me, I was like, Beth,

45:42

why do you always put a period at the end of your text? And

45:44

she's like, oh, it's just because I'm talking

45:46

to my watch. And that's how my watch does

45:49

it. Yeah. Yeah. I like that investigating

45:51

what's really going on. And also ask yourself if you

45:53

need to be as nice in your emails as you

45:55

are, could you be getting

45:56

more done with fewer laughing

45:58

face emojis?

45:59

And exclamation points.

46:02

Okay, next question. I

46:04

have a coworker who spends a significant part

46:07

of our company staff calls talking about how

46:09

hardworking while parenting is. For

46:11

example, on a recent call with more than 30 coworkers,

46:14

she announced that her kid had to poop and

46:16

then returned to say she was done, quote, wiping

46:18

butts. Now I have three kids and remember

46:21

the madness of toddlers. I sympathize,

46:23

but I also don't want to hear about poopy butts

46:26

on a professional call. Our organization

46:28

is super into team bonding, flexibility

46:31

and mental health support, which is great. They

46:33

can lead into a lack of boundaries between personal

46:35

and professional worlds. So I, a normally

46:38

empathetic person, am instead feeling like a

46:40

humorless headmistress in my reaction.

46:42

Have I inadvertently internalized the patriarchy?

46:45

Is this a generational thing? I'm

46:48

in my fifties, she's in her thirties. Is

46:50

airing home life challenges as part

46:52

of our work interactions a healthier way

46:54

to be? Please help me not

46:56

be an unsympathetic jerk to this

46:58

fellow mom.

46:59

Look, she's making the labor visible.

47:02

Sometimes it involves poop. It is just

47:04

what it is. I think I actually,

47:07

I praise this question writer because

47:09

I think she's seen some of her limitations.

47:12

She's like, what's going on in my head here that

47:14

I'm reacting this way? And I think that's important.

47:17

I think it's generational. Yeah, and I get

47:20

it. I just, as someone who also really wants to

47:22

be done wiping poopy butts, like, I

47:25

want it to be done so badly and

47:28

I hope to never talk about it again. But I

47:30

also hope I remember

47:32

how trapped I felt in

47:34

these years and can

47:37

extend that compassion to someone when

47:39

they're in that and I'm older.

47:41

Yeah, I think it's making the labor visible. I think

47:45

it is fine to not be into it but just

47:47

trying to find grace for this person who

47:49

is doing the really hard work of parenting and

47:51

doing this job. Love it, perfect. All

47:54

right, so one more, Melody? Do we have time for two

47:56

more? Well, we only have two left. Oh

47:59

yeah, okay.

47:59

I work at a university admin office with a lot

48:02

of older women, and I'm a younger millennial

48:04

slash Gen Z individual who

48:06

is non-binary and gender non-conforming.

48:10

Normally this is fine, but people tend to call me

48:12

young lady often, and

48:14

one time in the break room an older colleague

48:16

said to me that she quote, understood

48:18

trans men and women but doesn't get

48:20

the whole non-binary thing, and

48:22

that she quote, doesn't think it was

48:24

real. I felt super awkward

48:27

and just tried to casually change the subject because

48:29

I don't know what to do in that situation,

48:31

especially when I myself am non-binary.

48:34

I really like this colleague, but that comment made

48:36

me suddenly feel isolated from her. There

48:39

aren't any other openly genderqueer people at

48:41

my office. I don't want to have to be a spokesperson

48:43

or anything, but I want things to be more comfortable.

48:46

How do I even begin to make things better?

48:48

Ugh, this poor person. This is really

48:51

hard. Yeah, it's really hard. I would not

48:53

be responsible for educating other

48:56

people about their own...

48:58

Yep, about their identity.

49:01

Yeah, yeah, that is not anyone's responsibility.

49:04

I think HR is a hard

49:07

one because I feel like it will be almost too corporate.

49:09

There will be an email that goes out

49:12

that this person will just delete. Certainly

49:15

this sounds like a workplace that could use some anti-bias

49:17

training, and maybe

49:19

that's a conversation to have with your manager

49:22

or as a sidebar, but

49:24

also know

49:25

this is the perpetual problem

49:28

of marginalized people and workplaces is

49:30

you are asked to do the labor of

49:32

educating everyone in your workplace about

49:35

your own lived experiences, and

49:37

this is never okay. It's

49:40

additional labor you should be compensated for

49:42

additionally if you are providing it to your workplace

49:44

in any way. In that moment with

49:46

that, I don't believe it's real. I would

49:49

have said something like, I guess I'm a unicorn then.

49:52

They literally tried to deny your existence

49:54

and that is absurd.

49:55

But again, to go back to what we were talking

49:57

about with trolls, you don't owe them the

49:59

that solves it or makes them more

50:02

comfortable, you just need to do what

50:04

feels safe for you in the moment. And if that's

50:06

just getting out of that conversation, that's

50:08

totally fine. Yeah, this is, especially

50:11

a person who is younger

50:12

in the workplace and who doesn't feel

50:15

like they have that solidarity, I do think,

50:17

you know, one piece of advice that we've

50:19

given in previous episodes is like finding other

50:22

people at the university who

50:24

are also genderqueer or a part

50:27

of like an LGBT alliance, right,

50:29

like just so that you can talk as fellow coworkers

50:31

about your experiences and feel like you

50:33

have someplace to talk about this because

50:35

you're not gonna find that in your department. But

50:38

I think re-emphasizing this is not

50:40

okay and you don't have to make

50:42

this person feel more or less comfortable, any

50:44

response that you have

50:45

in that moment is valid and

50:48

it's totally fucked up that this person said

50:50

to you that they don't believe that your

50:53

existence exists, right? Absurd,

50:55

absolutely absurd. Did either of you watch

50:57

The Good Place?

50:59

Yes. I keep envisioning Janet

51:01

being like not a girl. Yes. Like

51:04

when they call you young lady, just like a

51:06

finger gun and be like, not a lady.

51:08

Not a lady. And just like, you have a good

51:10

relationship with them just sort of,

51:12

if there's like a lighthearted tack, it's

51:14

not a lighthearted subject, but just not a lady. Yeah,

51:17

no, that's great. And just another way to say

51:20

like, don't call people

51:22

young lady. Yeah,

51:23

yeah. Like it's patronizing. It's

51:25

patronizing, you're

51:27

bringing in ageism and gender

51:30

and everything and it's... It's

51:32

the intersection of like so many. Yeah.

51:35

So, all right, last one.

51:37

A few years ago when I was a fairly new

51:39

and lowly employee at my academia job,

51:42

an older coworker, a man, saw me

51:44

outside of the office when I was waiting for someone,

51:47

looked at my stomach, smiled and

51:49

said, should I be congratulating you? At

51:51

first I had no clue what he was talking

51:54

about and even naively thought I was being promoted

51:56

or recognized somehow for my work. So

51:59

I smiled back.

51:59

and asked, for what? And he just

52:02

looked more pointedly at my stomach and asked

52:04

again, should I be congratulating you? At

52:07

that point, I realized he was asking me if I was

52:09

pregnant. Needless to say, I was

52:11

not. I responded, this time without

52:13

a smile, with another, for what?

52:16

What should I have said to him when I realized what he was asking?

52:18

What can I say to others who make comments about my

52:20

body or if I'm ever again asked whether I

52:22

had unprotected intercourse while I was ovulating?

52:25

I

52:26

just want to say solidarity. I have

52:29

been here so many times. Your response

52:31

was perfect because you said what you needed

52:33

to say in the moment. You owe him nothing. This

52:36

happened to me just recently. We were at a barbecue

52:39

with a bunch of friends who I hadn't seen. Like, I

52:42

didn't know everyone at the barbecue and some people

52:44

were coming up and saying congratulations to me about my

52:46

book. And it was clear that people

52:48

were looking at me and thinking it was a different kind

52:50

of congratulations. And it was like, really?

52:53

I'm still here, still

52:55

doing this. This is the very

52:58

definition of you only need to say what makes

53:00

you comfortable because this person has violated

53:02

so many

53:04

boundaries,

53:05

so many boundaries. I just want to bring this

53:07

full circle by saying that one of the

53:09

great things about your book

53:11

is that you give a lot of scripts for

53:14

how people can respond

53:16

to not just comments like this, but anything

53:19

that is really seeped in diet culture,

53:21

how to talk to grandparents, how to talk to in-laws,

53:23

how to talk to friends, how to talk to your partner, how

53:25

to talk to your kids. Because

53:28

I

53:28

think so much of preventing this

53:31

moving forward

53:33

is stigmatizing this sort

53:35

of

53:36

commentary on anyone's body. Right.

53:38

This is what we need to make people feel uncomfortable

53:41

with the idea of talking about other people's bodies

53:43

because that's the uncomfortable thing. Yeah. Yeah.

53:46

So even though this guy

53:49

might never get it, he should feel

53:51

awkward and uncomfortable. And hopefully the

53:54

next generation feels

53:56

that they would never want to say those sorts

53:58

of things or even think those sorts of things. Because.

53:59

because it's none of their business.

54:01

Yeah, and I will say too, every time I talk about

54:03

mistaken for pregnant, because that's a recurring theme

54:06

in my work, in my life, you

54:08

know, the avalanche of other people

54:10

who are experiencing this and who

54:12

know what is unacceptable is so

54:15

huge. Like you are not alone. And

54:18

I do think we're seeing something

54:20

of a sea change where people

54:22

are understanding that yes, unless a baby

54:24

is crowning, there is no acceptable

54:27

time to congratulate

54:29

people for pregnancy you don't know is happening. I mean,

54:32

yeah, there's just, that's the end of it, so. Yeah,

54:35

all right. Virginia, thank you

54:38

so much for coming and helping me

54:40

answer these very awkward and

54:43

bad and

54:44

offensive questions. To

54:47

solidarity to everyone out there just getting through

54:49

their day, being talked at by people. It's

54:52

a lot, people are a lot.

54:54

In the workplace, there's so a

54:56

lot all the time. Where

54:59

can people find you on the internet? So burnt

55:01

toast is at virginiasolesmith.substack.com.

55:04

The burnt toast podcast is wherever you are listening

55:06

to this podcast and fat talk is

55:08

available wherever books are sold. Thank you so

55:11

much.

55:11

Thank you. Thanks

55:13

for listening to work approach. I'm

55:16

so happy to be here. I'm so

55:18

happy to be here. I'm so

55:20

happy to be here.

55:22

Thanks for listening to work appropriate. If you

55:24

need advice about a sticky situation at work, we're

55:26

here for you. Submit your questions at workappropriate.com

55:30

or send a voice memo with your question to workappropriate

55:33

at crooked.com. We love

55:35

building episodes like this one around your

55:37

questions and you can stay as anonymous

55:39

as you'd like. Don't forget to follow

55:41

us at crooked media on Instagram and Twitter for

55:43

more original content, host takeovers

55:46

and other community events. You can follow

55:48

me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson

55:51

and you can sign up for my newsletter culture

55:52

study at annehlen.substack.com.

55:56

And if you like the show, leave us a review on your podcast

55:58

app of choice. It really helps.

55:59

Work appropriate is a crooked

56:02

media production. I'm Anne Helen Peterson,

56:04

your host. Our executive producer is

56:06

Kendra James. Melody Rowell is our

56:08

producer and editor. Alison Falsetta

56:11

is our development producer. Music is

56:13

composed by Chanel Critchlow. Additional

56:15

production support from Ari Schwartz, and special

56:17

thanks to Katie Long and Sarah Geismar.

56:51

Finding the music you love shouldn't be hard. That's

56:53

why Pandora makes it easy to explore all your

56:55

favorites and discover new artists and genres

56:58

you'll love.

56:59

Enjoy a personalized listening experience

57:01

simply by selecting any song or album and

57:03

we'll make a station crafted just for you.

57:05

Best of all, you can listen for free.

57:08

Download Pandora on the Apple App Store or Google

57:10

Play and start hearing the soundtrack to your life.