0:00

In 2014, Adelanto, California,

0:03

a small town in the Mojave Desert, was

0:05

so broke there was talk of dissolving

0:07

itself completely. Then, along

0:10

came John Bug Woodard Jr.,

0:13

a 63-year-old gun-toting conservative

0:15

hippie who had a wild idea to

0:18

save Adelanto. I got on old

0:20

Google.

0:21

I did a little Googling, and

0:23

I found out the secret. The secret,

0:26

according to Bug, via Google, was

0:28

cannabis. I've heard those cannabis

0:30

shops make a lot of money.

0:32

What started as a simple solution

0:34

to revive this small town would

0:36

lead to a series of backroom dealings, a

0:39

shocking scandal involving the FBI.

0:42

I'm David Weinberg, and this is Dreamtown,

0:45

the story of Adelanto. Listen

0:48

wherever you get your podcasts.

0:51

Hi everyone, I'm Anne

0:53

Helen Peterson, and this is Work Appropriate.

1:11

A lot of people I know have spent the last year quietly

1:13

nervous that one of their worst fears is going to

1:15

come true. Layoffs

1:18

are seemingly everywhere, and if

1:20

you work in an industry that's sensitive or

1:22

reactive to shifts in the economy, like,

1:25

say, tech, but also entertainment

1:28

and finance and journalism,

1:30

your fears are warranted. Many

1:32

younger workers have never seen layoffs roll through

1:34

the economy. They just got lucky in

1:36

the fact that the economy was really good for, I don't

1:39

know, the last decade or so.

1:41

Many not so younger workers are returning

1:44

to that familiar feeling that the other

1:46

shoe is always just about

1:47

to drop. Whatever reason

1:50

you feel anxiety about getting laid off, it's

1:52

understandable. And so long as we

1:54

live in a country where quote-unquote economic

1:57

health is predicated on a certain number

1:59

of workers being uneducated,

1:59

employed, we're going to have to figure

2:02

out how to deal with the fact that almost all

2:04

of us will get laid off at some point.

2:07

So how do we prepare? Psychologically,

2:09

of course, but also in more practical ways? Today's

2:13

co-host

2:13

has the answers.

2:18

My name is Phoebe Gavin. I'm a career and leadership

2:20

coach helping ambitious professionals build

2:22

successful, fulfilling careers without sacrificing

2:25

work-life balance.

2:26

So you were laid off in January

2:28

and at the time I remember seeing this Twitter

2:30

thread that you wrote about how

2:33

you'd been preparing to get laid off since

2:35

the day you took the job. So can you

2:37

tell me a little bit about that story and why

2:39

you felt that way? Sure. So my

2:42

first layoff was in 2015.

2:45

That was my first time being laid

2:46

off from a job and I was completely unprepared

2:49

for it and it completely put me

2:51

on my butt financially, emotionally,

2:54

mentally, logistically. It totally

2:56

took me out and it took

2:58

me, I was lucky in that I was

3:00

able to find a job

3:01

within three or four months, but it was

3:03

a very scary three or four months because I had

3:05

no income. I was not provided any sort

3:08

of severance or benefits or any sort of support

3:10

transitioning into my next chapter. I ended

3:12

up racking up about 15,000 in credit

3:15

card debt just to like keep the

3:17

lights on in New York City. And

3:20

so it was terrifying. And when

3:22

I got into my next position,

3:24

it was a really lucky break and I recognized

3:27

it as the luck that it was that I happened

3:29

to know a person who knew a person who introduced

3:31

me to a hiring manager who was willing to take

3:33

a chance on me and I never wanted

3:36

it to be a matter of luck again.

3:38

And so I made a point of investing

3:41

small amounts of time, small amounts of money,

3:44

small amounts of energy on a very, very

3:46

regular basis to build more resiliency

3:48

into my career. And I

3:51

worked on that consistently for

3:53

eight years until I was laid off

3:55

again, the beginning of 2023. And in the...

4:00

In the middle part of that, I unfortunately

4:03

experienced a layoff at my company that

4:05

I wasn't affected by. I lost a

4:08

bunch of my team. And so it was another recognition

4:11

of the importance of continuing to invest

4:13

in myself. And so that happened in 2020,

4:15

where I lost most of my team to a

4:17

layoff. Again, reinforcing the

4:20

idea. Need to be preparing, need

4:22

to be investing in myself, making sure that I am

4:24

ready so that if a company decides

4:26

that what I'm bringing to the table is no longer

4:29

what they would like to have at their organization for

4:31

whatever reason,

4:31

I have a backup plan. And

4:34

so when I was laid off at the beginning of 2023, it

4:37

was terrifying and it was upsetting and I was so

4:39

frustrated and I was so angry and I was so scared.

4:41

But I also knew

4:42

the rational part of my brain knew

4:44

like, you are okay,

4:45

you're going to be okay. You

4:48

have done the work to set yourself up for success and

4:50

you will transition into a new chapter and

4:52

it will be okay. And I can only

4:55

say that that's the case because I made a decision

4:57

after my first layoff that I was never going to be caught

5:00

flat footed again.

5:01

You know, I think a lot of millennials

5:03

have had similar experiences

5:05

and that, you

5:08

know, maybe we were told like we're so exceptional

5:10

in so many ways. And then at some point

5:12

in our careers, there is something

5:14

that says like, you are not exceptional at all. You

5:17

are getting laid off without any extra thought.

5:20

And because of the way that the job market is particularly

5:22

post

5:24

great recession, there is

5:26

no

5:27

safety net. And so if you

5:29

haven't built a personal safety

5:31

net, right? Like the old fashioned safety

5:33

nets were things like union protections,

5:36

severance, you know, these things that I think

5:38

a lot of individuals are now trying to advocate for.

5:41

But if you hadn't done that yourself,

5:43

you were in trouble. And some

5:46

people, depending on

5:48

your class position, what your parents are doing,

5:50

that sort of thing, they had that, they had

5:52

a safety net of their parents. And some

5:54

people don't. Like I was very much like, what

5:56

is my safety net after academia? And

5:58

the way that I phrased it, I.

5:59

I love that you said resiliency. I think that's more

6:02

useful in terms of a term than what

6:04

I say, which is that I built myself a life raft

6:07

from each of my jobs. So when

6:09

I was in academia, I started writing online.

6:11

And then when I was at BuzzFeed, and I didn't

6:14

even, I don't think I consciously knew this, I

6:16

started writing my sub-stack. So that when

6:19

I got to the point where I was so scared,

6:21

so sick of so many layoffs, that

6:24

I couldn't deal with that constant fear,

6:27

that it was just overwhelming to me. And I felt

6:29

like if I was gonna have a precarious

6:31

job situation, then I wanted to be in

6:33

control of my own destiny and become a freelancer.

6:37

But I had already built that resiliency into

6:39

my career. Do you see this fear

6:41

in younger workers

6:44

as well? So like in Gen Z and

6:46

older workers, or do you think that it's particularly

6:48

acute for millennials? I think it is showing

6:51

up for everyone, but it's showing

6:52

up differently. For folks who

6:54

are very early in their career, are Gen

6:56

Z professionals. This

6:58

is just existential terror, because

7:01

they've never experienced anything like

7:03

this. The last time there was an economic

7:05

contraction, and they were in middle

7:08

school, maybe high school, it wasn't something

7:10

that they really needed to pay attention to. And

7:12

so they don't have the

7:15

sort of historical model that like, this

7:17

is a thing that happens, it's terrible,

7:19

it's a cycle, but it's a

7:21

cycle. So eventually it will be over. And

7:24

they are at this very pivotal point in their career

7:27

where they need to be establishing themselves as

7:29

professionals. And having

7:31

the carpet pulled from under you

7:33

when you don't have skills and you don't have

7:36

experience and you don't have a network is uniquely

7:38

scary

7:39

for Gen Z professionals who are

7:41

at the beginning of their career.

7:43

For millennials, they may have

7:45

experienced this cycle before, depending on where

7:48

they land in the generational

7:50

range. And they may be able to

7:52

look back on, okay, well, last

7:54

time there was an economic contraction and

7:56

things were really scary and people were getting laid

7:58

off. These are the things that I did.

7:59

and they helped and so let me do those

8:02

things again. They also have more

8:05

professional capital to lean on in

8:08

terms of network and skills and experience

8:10

and so it's a little bit easier for them to

8:13

transition into the next chapter than it might be

8:15

for someone who's early on in their career.

8:17

But for the folks who

8:19

are later in their careers that

8:21

are sort of in like the last half or

8:24

the last third of their careers, it's unique,

8:26

it's an existential crisis again, but in a different

8:28

way because they are thinking about

8:30

the end of their working

8:32

life approaching and that these

8:35

last five years, these last 10

8:37

years are really critical for making sure that

8:39

they hit the financial goal that they need to hit

8:41

in order to be able to retire in comfort and dignity.

8:44

And so having

8:45

the carpet taken out from under them, they

8:48

have to hit the job market with concerns

8:50

of ageism and those sorts

8:53

of discriminatory, subconscious,

8:56

implicit and

8:57

explicit ageism that they might have to deal

8:59

with and how do I go

9:01

into the market being a, air

9:04

quotes, more expensive worker and

9:07

get the kinds of roles that are gonna allow me to

9:09

reach the financial goals that I'm looking for. And

9:11

so every generation is coming up for

9:14

them, but it's looking very different. Yeah, I

9:16

think this is a useful thing for just like

9:19

extending empathy for everyone who's going through

9:21

this, the characteristics

9:24

of what it feels like to anticipate or

9:26

go through layoffs are different depending on

9:28

your life situation, but it's like shitty in different

9:30

ways for everyone. Let's jump

9:32

into our first question because I think this is going

9:34

to sound really familiar. This

9:36

is from Ashley and our producer, Melody, is going

9:39

to read it.

9:39

I work for a mission-driven media company.

9:42

I believe many of our executives have the best

9:44

intentions to do what's right for their people and

9:46

communities, yet impending

9:48

layoffs were announced last December and

9:51

I may not know until July at the earliest

9:54

where I stand. In the meantime,

9:56

the start of the reorg has completely upended

9:59

decision-making strategies.

11:59

reduce how big the biggest expense

12:02

is because it's the simplest, it is

12:04

the fastest way to get

12:06

the budget back in balance if the budget

12:09

is out of balance.

12:10

And I think we have to be honest that

12:12

there are some organizations where

12:15

that decision is the difference between

12:17

survival or not. And that's a very different

12:20

thing from when companies do layoffs

12:22

because they're trying to sort of position themselves for

12:24

an acquisition or positioning themselves for

12:27

to get some VC

12:27

money. That's a different calculation

12:30

from we're not gonna be able to pay our bills

12:32

if our bills continue to look like this. And

12:34

so it's hard to assess

12:37

what the direction is because if you,

12:40

the more distance there is

12:41

between you and the folks who are making those

12:43

decisions, the less information you're actually gonna have.

12:46

And so the advice that I always

12:48

give my clients and the folks who are in my

12:51

community

12:51

is that you have to let go of the

12:54

idea that there is anything about this that you can

12:56

control and you also have to let

12:58

go of the idea that the company

13:00

is trying to be nice

13:03

to you or that the company should

13:05

be nice to you because companies

13:08

are not people. Regardless of what Citizens

13:10

United says, companies are not people.

13:13

And so when we go to work, we interact

13:16

with people and it's natural for us

13:18

to think that the sort of dynamics

13:20

that we expect in interpersonal relationships

13:23

are going to show up in these sorts of calculations

13:25

and they don't because the company,

13:28

the entity, the LLC, the

13:30

S Corp, the C Corp, it exists

13:32

to keep itself alive and to

13:34

create value for its shareholders. And

13:37

so

13:37

the people who make

13:39

up the entity are going to make decisions

13:42

that are in the interests of the company, but

13:44

are also in their

13:44

own interests. If an

13:47

individual who is a leader at the company

13:49

who has to make these decisions, has to choose

13:51

between doing the air quotes right

13:53

thing and doing the thing that is right

13:55

for the company,

13:57

they are going to choose to do the thing that is right for the company

13:59

that is the thing that allows them to keep their job

14:02

and pay their rent. And so I

14:04

say all of that, not to excuse

14:06

terrible behavior around layoffs, because there certainly

14:08

has been a great deal of terrible behavior,

14:11

but to say that it is harmful

14:13

to ourselves to expect

14:16

humanity from things that are not human. And

14:19

instead, if we focus on

14:21

what can I do to make sure that I

14:24

am in the best position to succeed

14:26

and to grow and to thrive and to survive, then

14:29

you are going to be in a better position to do those

14:31

things. And certainly more than if you

14:33

wait for a company, an entity

14:35

that does not actually care about you as a person,

14:37

to set that up for you. And

14:39

so you can't control whether a company lays you off,

14:41

all sorts of highly impactful people who

14:43

are great at their jobs and add lots

14:46

of value to their companies get laid off. If

14:49

you stay at a company

14:51

that seems to be on the rope,

14:53

seems to be

14:54

about to announce layoffs, is announcing

14:56

layoffs, if you decide to stay, then

14:58

that's fine for you to stay. But don't stay because you think

15:01

you can somehow impact that kind of decision

15:03

because you can, unless you are actually

15:05

at the table where

15:06

those decisions are being made, nothing

15:08

that you personally can do can change

15:10

whether they decide to give you the axe versus someone

15:13

else. And so you have to focus on what you

15:15

can actually control and you can

15:17

control whether you stay in that job. And

15:19

I think this is a place where we also have

15:21

to remember that a lot of places

15:24

are increasingly using algorithms

15:26

to figure out their layoffs because

15:28

it's a way to indemnify them from

15:30

potential prosecution that they

15:32

would like laid off people in discriminatory manners.

15:35

You can't control the algorithm. Like the algorithm does

15:37

not know you. It does not care about

15:40

how much loyalty you have to the company,

15:42

about what time you're coming in in the morning,

15:45

right? Like those aren't things that the algorithm is

15:47

paying attention to. So our

15:49

question asker seems to be asking like, why

15:52

should I like work really hard, right? Should

15:55

I be putting in like my best face to

15:57

try to determine, like to try to sway the decision?

16:00

Do

16:00

you think that that works?

16:01

I don't think that works. I think- I don't

16:03

either. I don't think that works. I don't think that's a good

16:05

idea. I don't think it's a good idea under any circumstances

16:07

to run yourself in the ground for

16:10

a job or for a company that is not going to

16:12

do the same thing for you.

16:13

I think the most important thing is

16:15

to really be active about

16:18

managing your own internal dialogue so

16:20

that you aren't making the distress around

16:22

the situation worse

16:24

for yourself and then taking

16:26

action that's going to build more resiliency into

16:28

your career. Now, if you're committed to the mission, if

16:30

you're committed to the company, if you love the work that you're

16:32

doing and you're hoping that this is something

16:34

that passes, then by all means,

16:36

stay and see what happens.

16:38

But while you are in this

16:40

moment of instability and uncertainty, make

16:43

sure that you are doing things that are going to

16:45

build in resiliency into your career. So

16:47

for me, there's three pillars, building your savings,

16:49

building your network, building your skills. You should always,

16:52

always, always be doing things to

16:54

shore

16:54

those three areas up. And so if

16:56

you're committed to the company and the mission you want to stick around,

16:59

sure, great, but make sure that you're putting money aside

17:01

so that you have more of a financial cushion so that if

17:04

something happens, you have a little bit

17:06

of space because some folks are getting

17:08

severance, some folks are getting ridiculous severance,

17:10

lots of folks are getting no severance. My first layoff,

17:13

I got no severance. This most recent layoff, I did

17:15

get severance. It was an absolute blessing and I'm so

17:17

grateful for it. But I really remember

17:19

the contrast between those two experiences.

17:22

And the first one, I had no savings and I got

17:24

no severance and I ended up charging up $15,000 in

17:26

credit card debt. This one,

17:28

I had savings and so I was ready and I

17:30

didn't know whether I was gonna get severance or not.

17:32

I ended up getting severance and I'm so grateful for that.

17:35

And it made it so that I wasn't freaking

17:37

out and desperate in my job search

17:39

because when we job search from a place of desperation,

17:42

we make the absolute worst decisions. Yes,

17:44

and you know, this is sort

17:46

of a side note, but I think it's essential to note that

17:48

a lot of the reason why there

17:51

have been union drives and unionization

17:54

efforts at places like startups

17:56

and digital media companies that both you

17:58

and I work for.

17:59

is to try to create that severance.

18:02

The unions are coming to the table

18:05

with an understanding that layoffs happen in this

18:07

industry. So what can we do to make

18:09

that

18:10

transition easier for us

18:12

as workers? Severance, right? Severance

18:15

is the runway. It is the thing that makes

18:17

it possible to, as you said, like

18:19

to job search from a place of security instead

18:22

of a place of desperation, or at least

18:24

like a modicum of security. And

18:26

so I think if you don't have that

18:28

in your particular job, trying to create

18:30

it for yourself in terms of savings is useful.

18:34

Is there anything else that you would particularly

18:36

advise for Ashley to do in this position

18:38

as she's waiting? So another thing

18:40

that she mentioned was the lack

18:43

of psychological safety

18:44

is wearing on her and seeping

18:46

into other corners of her life. I remember that

18:48

phrase. And so I'm not sure if she means

18:50

the literal definition of psychological safety,

18:52

which is like whether it is okay to take

18:54

risks, ask questions, volunteer ideas,

18:57

and make mistakes in a particular workplace

18:59

context. Or if she's talking about

19:01

the uncertainty or instability that

19:04

comes with layoffs and impending layoffs.

19:06

So if she's talking about the literal definition of

19:08

psychological

19:09

safety, and like we had, she said, the

19:11

decision-making structures had been upended.

19:14

Like I can see it being scary

19:16

to contribute or to collaborate in this new

19:19

environment because you don't know how to predict what the

19:21

outcome might be. If that's the case, the

19:23

only solution of that is to test the boundaries

19:25

there and see what happens and adjust based

19:28

on what you learn. If you occupy

19:30

a place of fear and hesitance

19:32

and being tentative, then that sets

19:35

you up even less for being

19:37

seen as visible and valuable

19:39

in your role because no one is gonna see you

19:42

asking questions, volunteering ideas. Nobody's

19:45

gonna see you being the growth-minded person who's

19:47

not afraid of making mistakes and learning from them because

19:49

you're waiting for it to be psychologically safe

19:51

again.

19:52

And so that's also going to be a really important

19:54

test of whether it makes sense to stick around and

19:56

see what happens because if this new decision-making

19:59

matrix that's happening in the

20:02

organization is not one where you

20:04

can be that kind of person. It's probably

20:06

not going to be a great place to stay. Now, when it comes

20:08

to just like dealing with the uncertainty

20:11

and instability that goes with

20:13

being in this economic moment, this moment

20:15

in the media industry,

20:17

that really the only thing to focus on there

20:20

is managing your internal dialogue and

20:22

making sure that you are putting yourself in a position

20:24

to take action, because thinking about

20:26

things don't make them better. Talking about things

20:28

don't make them better. But if you take action,

20:31

if you do something about the situation that you're

20:33

in, that does make it better. And so managing

20:35

that internal dialogue and developing a bias

20:38

toward action.

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wherever you get your podcasts.

22:18

Our next question is from someone who is

22:21

in a new job after getting laid off,

22:23

but they're still feeling the effects. This

22:25

is from Megan.

22:27

I was made redundant back in December and

22:29

just started a new contract in March. I was

22:31

wondering if you had any practical advice to deal with

22:33

the post-redundancy panic that sets in

22:36

at least once a week. I feel this so

22:38

hard, like, it's just that feeling

22:41

that the other shoe is going to drop at any moment.

22:43

So how did you deal with this when you

22:46

got your next job after that first

22:48

layoff in 2015? So this is going

22:50

to sound like super redundant,

22:53

but once I got the new job, my

22:55

focus was how do I protect myself from that? And

22:57

so again, like I just said, thinking about

23:00

something, talking about something that doesn't fix it, taking

23:02

action fixes it. And so this is a situation

23:04

where this person needs to take some time to get

23:07

to the source of the anxiety, identify

23:09

what's within their control, take action

23:11

on what they can take action on, and distract

23:14

themselves from what they can't. Any

23:16

mental, emotional, time,

23:18

money, energy that is going in

23:20

the direction of things you can't control is wasted.

23:24

And so redirect that either to something

23:26

that is enjoyable and delightful or

23:28

to something that helps you

23:30

prevent or reduce the impact

23:33

of a similar problem happening again. And so when

23:35

this person ends up in this panic,

23:38

then it really does come down to what

23:40

can you do with that energy that is

23:41

actually positive and supportive for you?

23:44

Is that going to be, you know, going for

23:46

a walk outside just to distract yourself

23:48

or to watch some trash TV or to

23:51

join

23:51

a professional association so

23:53

that you can build your network or to post

23:56

something on LinkedIn about your function

23:58

and your way of doing it so that more people can

24:00

see that you're really good at your job. So that either

24:03

you are supporting yourself in terms of your mental

24:06

and emotional health, or you're supporting

24:08

your professional resiliency. But just like

24:10

occupying panic is not gonna do

24:12

anything to help the situation.

24:14

I think I've seen this manifest sometimes

24:16

in people who just get in like a defensive crouch

24:19

and are like, I need to save all of my

24:21

money in case of this catastrophe. And I

24:23

need to constantly be networking

24:26

to the point that they're like actually not doing their job. Do

24:28

you know what I mean? I think the opposite is

24:30

way more common, way, way,

24:32

way more common. I hope that

24:35

people get

24:36

so activated in their

24:38

desire to be professionally

24:40

resilient that they absolutely

24:43

blow themselves out, saving as much money as

24:45

they can and active in growing their network

24:47

as much as possible. Because eventually that's gonna

24:49

blow away and you're still gonna have the benefits

24:51

from it. And

24:52

certainly there are some emotional

24:54

costs to being in sort

24:57

of survival mode emotionally for a long

24:59

period of time. But that is something that you

25:01

can recover from. And if you

25:03

recover from that challenge but you

25:05

still have a really great network and you have

25:07

a bunch of money saved up in the bank,

25:09

I would consider that to be a net positive. So

25:12

this person was able to get a new contract

25:14

pretty quickly. And

25:16

although I'm sure it felt like it was forever

25:18

when your job searching, time just seems to stretch.

25:21

But what advice would you give someone who is having

25:23

a really hard time emotionally while looking

25:26

for a new job? The most important thing for you

25:28

to do is to seek guidance

25:29

and community. If you're doing it by

25:31

yourself, it is gonna reinforce the idea

25:33

that there is something wrong with you and that is

25:35

the reason why you are in the situation that you're in.

25:38

But if you have guidance, whether that comes from

25:40

a career coach or a mentor or just like having

25:43

relying on people in your life who can give you

25:45

advice and support,

25:47

you will be going through it less alone and

25:50

that is gonna make you feel better. But the best,

25:52

the absolute best thing that you can do is to

25:55

connect with other people who are also going through

25:57

the exact same thing because not only-

25:59

you're going to be getting the perspective of whatever

26:02

expert you are deriving information

26:04

from, whether that's a coach or a friend or a mentor or whatever,

26:06

you are also going to be hearing the perspectives

26:09

of lots of other people who are going through the exact same

26:11

thing, which eliminates the, is

26:13

it just me question? Because

26:15

then

26:16

the answer is no, it's all of these other people too.

26:18

This other person also got a ridiculous lowball

26:20

offer. It's not just me, this happens to other people.

26:23

This other person spent, you know, three

26:25

hours on their cover letter and didn't get a call back and is super

26:27

frustrated about it. It's not just me, it's

26:29

all sorts of people are going through these things. And

26:31

that really helps that lack of isolation.

26:35

That community really helps with

26:37

bearing the challenge.

26:39

The most important thing though, once you

26:41

get into this place where you are connected

26:44

to community is that you can

26:45

start to tip into sort of comparison where

26:48

it's like, Oh, I didn't get an interview, but the other

26:50

person in my group got an interview. Maybe it is

26:52

just me. It's really important to avoid

26:54

that. And so tread carefully,

26:56

but definitely tread. Yeah. I

26:58

think that that's such a great way to resist this.

27:01

I mean, our culture is so individualistic.

27:03

And so it really puts like

27:05

both success is the result of individual

27:07

effort, which is not always true. But then also

27:10

failure is the result of individual

27:12

failures. Also not true. So

27:14

the more you can think about it as like, Oh, the system,

27:16

this is how the system is supposed to work.

27:18

Like the fact that our economy

27:20

is supposed to be like it's quote unquote,

27:23

most healthy when there is a certain

27:25

rate of unemployment, like that tells

27:27

us something about how the system is supposed to work. So

27:30

just because you fall into that bucket for a period

27:32

of time, it is not in any way a personal

27:34

failure. So our next question is

27:36

from someone who wants to use her layoff as a

27:39

chance to rebrand. Here's Kristen.

27:41

I am a C-suite marketing executive,

27:44

a CMO to be more specific. And I'm facing

27:46

a self-inflicted layoff as my company is in financial

27:49

trouble. And I'm really unhappy with the work.

27:51

And I feel like I have

27:52

much more to give at another company. So

27:54

for my next role, I'm interested in taking something that

27:56

isn't the head of, as I realized I

27:58

really don't want to be in charge. I'd rather follow a strategy.

28:01

So maybe it's a VP or a director level.

28:03

How do I walk this back in interviews and recruiter

28:06

conversations without it sounding like I couldn't

28:08

hack it? I guess, in summary,

28:10

I don't want to be the head of honcho anymore. Help. So

28:13

there's this persistent idea that like every career

28:15

move has to be a step up and that

28:17

you always have to be growing, advancing,

28:20

taking on more responsibility, becoming

28:22

a manager than becoming a manager of managers.

28:25

Do you think Kristen has a shot at a job that's at

28:27

a lower level than the one that she's lost? So

28:30

the easiest way to go at this is to

28:32

go to

28:32

a larger company. So it's hard

28:35

to learn and grow when you're the most experienced

28:37

at the company in your function. And so

28:39

it's not a hard sell to a hiring manager

28:42

or a recruiter that was

28:44

a tension that you experienced, that you want to resolve

28:46

by moving into

28:47

a larger organization and that

28:49

you are okay with the fact that that might mean

28:52

a lateral move from a title perspective

28:54

or even a step back from a title perspective because

28:56

it's going to allow you to access the

28:59

growth and development that you want to access.

29:01

Now, if that is not actually true and

29:03

you just want to be receive marching

29:06

orders and march, that's fine.

29:07

But that is the narrative that is going

29:09

to be effective in getting in front of the

29:11

objection of why are you going

29:14

out for a VP role or a director

29:16

role when you were just a CMO? Now,

29:19

if you do move from a company

29:21

that is X size to

29:23

a company that is X plus size, that

29:25

does mean that you are going to retain a lot

29:28

of the complexity in the initial position. And

29:30

so that does mean that you

29:32

need to do some reflection. And one

29:34

thing that sticks out to me with the way that this question is

29:37

framed is that it's classic running

29:39

away versus running toward

29:40

mindset. Running away mindset,

29:43

you are focused on all the things that you didn't like

29:45

and how can you

29:46

get away from those things as quickly as possible?

29:48

And if we translate that into physicality,

29:51

like you are running in a direction and looking

29:53

behind you versus running toward

29:56

where you have identified these are the things

29:58

that I want. This is what I am looking for.

29:59

this is what I am seeking and you are running

30:02

toward that thing. And again, if we translate

30:04

that into physicality, you are running, but

30:06

you are looking where you're going. And so again,

30:08

staying in that physical metaphor,

30:11

if you are running in a direction and not

30:13

looking where you're going, you are very likely to

30:15

run into a pole, fall in a hole, fall

30:17

off a cliff, you're tripping,

30:18

fall on your face. And

30:21

the professional version of that is,

30:24

I hated my last job

30:25

so much, so I took the first job that

30:27

seemed like it wasn't as terrible, but actually

30:29

was very terrible. And there were lots of red flags

30:31

that I would have noticed if I had been looking for them.

30:34

And when you put yourself into a running toward

30:36

mindset where you are really active about identifying

30:39

where do I want to go,

30:40

you can still take the lessons

30:42

from the previous job, but not take

30:45

the baggage. And so this person needs to

30:47

really get specific on why the original

30:50

role didn't work for her. She's

30:52

describing herself as not being able to

30:54

hack it.

30:55

What's the cause there? Is it a skills gap? Is it

30:57

a resource gap? Was it a team dynamic

30:59

thing? Were

31:00

the fundamentals of the business not sound enough

31:02

for her to market it properly? Like, what

31:04

was the actual issue? And

31:06

that way you know exactly what

31:08

to avoid in the next position and exactly

31:11

what to look for in the next position.

31:12

Leadership isn't for everyone. Senior leadership

31:15

isn't for everyone. But this is a

31:17

person who really does need to dig deeper and do

31:19

some articulation

31:19

of what is important, what

31:21

are the priorities and criteria that

31:24

are going to help them step out of a role that was not

31:26

a good fit and into a role that is a good fit.

31:28

I love that you point out that there needs

31:30

to be some real self-reflection here,

31:32

because that to me seems like something that oftentimes

31:34

gets lost because we get so focused

31:36

on trying to find the next thing. And like people

31:38

focus on like rejiggering their resume

31:41

without

31:42

thinking about, okay, what was really going

31:45

on here? And sometimes you need a little bit of distance.

31:47

Like it's hard to do when you're in the job.

31:50

Is this something that someone, and I say

31:53

this like not as a, like to tee you

31:55

up, but is this something that a career

31:57

coach can do? I just don't know enough about

31:59

what career coach can do.

31:59

Oh, absolutely. This

32:02

idea of reflecting on

32:04

what the previous situation was

32:07

and finding the lessons

32:08

is something that's incredibly helpful to do

32:10

with another person. Because as you

32:12

are sort of word vomiting about

32:15

how terrible everything was, that other

32:17

person, whether that is a career coach or someone

32:19

else, can be listening for the assumptions,

32:21

the gaps, the

32:24

questions that need to be asked, and reflect those

32:26

back to you so that you can find the things

32:28

that are missing. And I like to talk

32:30

about it as like you're

32:31

trying to identify what are your LEGO blocks.

32:33

When we are putting together a puzzle or

32:35

a LEGO kit, there's like a photo

32:38

and there's instructions, but that is not

32:40

actually how careers work. You

32:43

have a bunch of LEGO pieces

32:45

that are just sort of in a pile, and some of them are for

32:47

your LEGO kit, and some of them are for a bunch of other

32:49

people's LEGO kits. And you don't have a photo

32:51

and you don't have instructions. And so,

32:54

and that is how we navigate putting together a career.

32:56

Just like, oh, is

32:57

this right? Is this right? And so taking

32:59

a pause to really identify, okay,

33:02

these blocks are not in my kit. These

33:04

blocks are in my kit. And not only

33:06

can I make this thing that seems

33:08

to be the obvious way of combining these LEGO

33:11

blocks that I really like, there are all these other ways

33:13

to combine. And maybe I like some of these

33:15

other ones too. And then once you have all of

33:17

these prospective combinations, you can go out

33:20

to the market and say, do

33:21

any of these combinations actually exist? Can

33:23

I go grab them and have that

33:25

be my LEGO kit? But

33:28

that is

33:29

a way of approaching career

33:31

strategy and career development that we are not

33:34

taught. We are taught

33:35

pick up this piece, pick up this piece, see if it

33:37

goes together. It doesn't go together, next combination.

33:40

And that takes up a lot of time.

33:43

Do you think that, well, okay, let me backtrack.

33:45

We love scripts here at Work Appropriate,

33:48

like even just like the beginning of a sentence

33:50

that can allow someone to fill in the blanks for themselves.

33:53

How would you, like, in interviews,

33:56

how would you suggest that she explain

33:59

that move? So we're

34:01

assuming that the cover letter is solid

34:03

enough and the resume is solid enough that

34:06

this individual is getting in initial

34:08

conversation with a recruiter or initial

34:10

conversation with the hiring manager.

34:12

This is going to be a situation where

34:14

you have to like get in front of it. You

34:16

have to jump in and say, I want to just

34:18

share something with you really quickly. And so,

34:20

and this is actually a move that I made in my

34:23

own career. I was a senior

34:26

editor at a small publication and I

34:29

also, I liked being a leader, but

34:31

I was at that point where there was no one

34:33

for me to learn from and I was just functionally

34:35

getting very stagnant. And

34:38

so I moved to a larger publication as an individual

34:40

contributor. And

34:41

in that interview, I said somewhere in the halfway

34:43

mark, because you never know if you actually get time for

34:45

questions. I said, do you mind if

34:48

I share something with you before

34:49

we move on to the next question? I just want

34:52

to share a detail with you. I know

34:54

that I'm coming from a leadership position

34:56

in my current newsroom and this is an individual

34:58

contributor position. And it

35:00

would be natural to wonder why I would be

35:02

interested in a position like that, or if I'm overqualified

35:05

and if I might disappear after six

35:08

months. The reason why I'm applying for

35:10

this individual contributor position is because

35:12

in my current position, there's no one for me to

35:14

learn from. And I want to be somewhere

35:16

where the resources match what we're trying to

35:19

accomplish. And there are people that I can learn

35:21

from who know more about this function than

35:23

I do so that I can continue to grow and drive

35:25

better and better results.

35:27

And after I delivered

35:29

that line, the hiring manager said, I'm

35:31

really glad you said that I was kind of wondering. Right.

35:34

Because they're going to be wondering. So if you

35:36

preempt it

35:37

by owning that narrative, by running

35:39

towards the thing, I

35:41

think that's really effective. One of the things I'd

35:43

say is that hiring managers and

35:45

recruiters tend to be very unimaginative.

35:47

They have a cookie

35:50

cutter in the back of their mind of like, this is going

35:52

to be the ideal

35:52

candidate and that cookie cutter either looks

35:54

like them or the boss

35:56

they loved working for or the person

35:59

that was

35:59

their team that was an absolute rock star. And the truth

36:02

is there are lots of ways to get to excellence.

36:03

And when you

36:06

are trying to pitch yourself as

36:08

the solution to the business problem that

36:11

necessitates hiring

36:12

a role, it is in

36:14

your interest to

36:16

create a very direct line between

36:18

who you are and what you're bringing to the table and the experience

36:21

and expertise that you have and the results that

36:23

they're trying to drive. Because they are not going

36:25

to connect those dots for you. They are

36:28

either too busy, not creative

36:30

enough, not thinking about it hard enough. You

36:32

have to do that work for them. And so getting

36:35

in front of objections and making

36:37

that very direct line between this is what I'm

36:39

capable of and these are the results that you are trying to

36:41

drive is really going to make your

36:44

interviewing and also developing cover

36:46

letters and resumes significantly more effective.

36:48

Most of the resumes and cover letters and

36:51

LinkedIn as well that I review in my career coaching

36:53

practice are

36:53

people saying, this is what I'm capable of. This

36:56

is what I'm capable of is not an effective cover

36:58

letter. This is what I'm capable of and

37:00

this is how it can help you drive the results you

37:02

are looking for. That is a cover letter that

37:04

people are going to respond to. That is an interview

37:06

question, an interview answer that people

37:08

are going to remember and want to move you forward in the process.

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38:22

last question is from someone whose workplace

38:24

did not love them back because again the workplace

38:27

is not a person. This is from Rhonda

38:30

and our colleague Charlotte is going to read it.

38:32

My company went through layoffs but did

38:34

so in an unseemly possibly

38:36

illegal way. How can I take a stand

38:39

against this behavior while not

38:41

having the means to withstand a fight against

38:43

a large company?

38:44

So there's so much that we don't know about this situation.

38:47

We can't tell whether this person actually

38:49

lost their job, if she's righteously

38:51

indignant on the behalf of people who

38:53

did. But I wanted us to answer this

38:55

and to include this question because I think

38:58

it's an impulse that a lot of people have in this

39:01

situation. So Phoebe

39:03

what is your initial reaction

39:05

to this question? My lawyer does not want me

39:07

to answer this question. You know why? Because I'm

39:09

a career coach not a lawyer. And so

39:11

this is this is definitely a question for an

39:14

employment lawyer.

39:14

You know this respondent really hasn't given us

39:16

any details about their situation and just

39:19

because we as individuals think that something should

39:21

be illegal doesn't mean that it is. Just

39:23

because it's illegal in one state doesn't mean

39:25

that it's illegal in all states or all

39:27

jurisdictions. But either way

39:29

I am NOT a lawyer and that is what this person needs.

39:31

A lawyer to understand whether

39:34

the company's actions are in fact illegal.

39:36

And a lawyer is also going to be able to help this person

39:39

understand whether they have standing

39:41

to take legal action against the company or

39:43

if they are eligible for any worker protections

39:45

and how to access those worker protections. And

39:48

a lawyer can also help this person understand

39:50

their individual legal liability for

39:53

libel or slander if they choose to speak

39:55

out against the company in some way. Now

39:58

having that kind of conversation with a lawyer doesn't

40:00

lock you into a lawsuit, but it would

40:02

give you clarity about the situation

40:05

and possibly some peace of mind. And so,

40:07

but one thing that I will say is that they should be prepared

40:09

to pay a few

40:09

hundred dollars for this sort of conversation. It

40:11

does not fall within the scope of a consultation, which

40:14

many lawyers charge for anyway. And

40:16

so if you are in a situation

40:18

where you feel like your company

40:20

is up to no good, talk to a lawyer. That

40:22

is the best way for you to get resolution and to understand

40:25

what the situation is. Don't ask random Facebook

40:27

people. Don't ask random people

40:29

in Slack communities. Don't

40:31

go on social media and announce

40:33

all of your grievances. Go talk to a lawyer first.

40:36

It would be better for you to spend a few hundred dollars

40:38

and really understand what the situation is and

40:41

take action based on actual accurate information

40:44

than to not do anything

40:46

when you could have done something or to do

40:48

the wrong thing and catch yourself in some additional trouble.

40:50

Yes, the cost for a consultation

40:53

is probably the cost of

40:55

like a 90 minute massage. So

40:58

you might get more peace of mind from the consultation

41:00

than you do from the massage. I'll

41:02

say that. I'll also say that

41:04

like, I know this happened at my former employer.

41:07

The way that they did layoffs was against

41:09

the law in New York. And so it affected

41:12

the way that they did severance. This is not

41:14

an impossible situation, but you

41:16

do like, you don't want to talk about it publicly

41:18

because it could be libelous, but

41:20

you can find resources that

41:22

can answer this question for you. And

41:25

sometimes

41:25

there are resources that are available

41:28

for free or low cost. They are harder to find,

41:30

but sometimes they do exist. And so, you know,

41:33

give it a Google, but your best bet is

41:35

always going to be to get support from

41:37

someone who is credentialed in

41:40

law.

41:41

So these steps to lay off proof your

41:43

career. I think that they are

41:45

so solid for someone who has been working

41:48

in industries like we have and in a lot of other industries

41:50

too, but let's say you're making minimum

41:52

wage or let's say you're in an industry

41:55

where there is a lot of work to make it feel

41:58

like you'd have no skills outside.

41:59

of that industry. I'm thinking specifically of

42:02

academia. What else can

42:05

people in those situations be doing?

42:08

Or can they just kind of change their mindset? But I guess

42:10

I'm thinking a lot of the minimum wage question

42:12

if you don't have enough money to put away.

42:14

So I come from a low income background.

42:17

My mom was a cleaner, house cleaner, my

42:19

dad was a plumber.

42:20

I did not grow up with any sort of financial

42:22

comfort. And I did not receive any

42:25

financial literacy training from my parents other than

42:27

pay your taxes, don't get into debt if you can manage.

42:30

And so I had to teach myself all of these things and

42:32

a lot of it was through trial and error. And

42:35

one thing that I have learned as I

42:37

reflect back on my financial

42:39

journey is the importance of building

42:42

the habit of saving is

42:44

more important than actually

42:46

saving. Because if you're at a stage

42:49

in your career where you're not earning very much, but

42:51

you're still building the habit of saving as

42:53

you invest in your skills and invest in

42:55

your network and move into a role where

42:58

you are making more and you are making

43:00

enough and you do have some access that you can

43:02

put towards savings, you

43:03

will actually do that. Versus what

43:06

I did where my first job

43:08

was I was making $16,000 in the army or something

43:10

like that. And

43:13

then once I finally got into a good

43:15

job and I was super excited about making $40,000 in New

43:19

York City, I did not

43:20

do anything to actually put money aside

43:23

for myself. And that was a situation where even

43:25

though it was like I was just making

43:27

it, I was making it. I could

43:29

have put aside a little bit. And

43:32

so even if all you can do is build

43:34

the habit

43:34

of I put aside a dollar a week, I

43:37

put aside a dollar a week, that is what I do. That

43:39

still builds the habit of saving

43:41

so that that habit is there for you as

43:44

you earn more. And then the effort

43:46

is on getting to where you can earn more,

43:49

building those skills, building those

43:50

networks, building that professional

43:53

brand so that you can step into the sorts

43:55

of opportunities that will allow you to turn that

43:57

dollar a week into $10 a week or $100 a week. or

44:00

something that is going to really allow you to build

44:02

the financial future that you want for yourself. I

44:05

also think that a lot of the networking

44:07

advice works no matter

44:10

what kind of job that you are currently doing.

44:13

And something that I heard that has really stuck with

44:15

me is talk to people who've left your

44:17

job to see where they went and

44:19

how they did that. So not necessarily

44:21

people who are in your job now, not necessarily

44:24

people who are in some dream job of yours, but

44:26

think about what the stepping stones have been for people

44:28

who have left where you are in this

44:30

moment. And those people will probably be really

44:33

eager to talk to you because there's oftentimes

44:36

a desire to pay it forward. Absolutely.

44:38

And LinkedIn is a really good resource

44:41

for that. LinkedIn search, play with

44:43

it. Look at the advanced

44:43

search features. There are some ways for

44:46

you to track down folks who have

44:48

made that sort of transition and then focus

44:50

on shots over baskets. Don't worry about,

44:53

oh, I need to write the perfect note or they'll

44:55

think I'm a troll. Don't worry

44:57

about that. Worry about

44:59

sending as many notes as you can. Show

45:01

up to that process as

45:04

compassionate and empathetic

45:05

and authentic and thoughtful

45:08

and considerate of the person who's going to receive

45:10

it. But send as many messages as you can from

45:13

that posture. And if you are sending

45:15

them from that posture, they're not going to be bad. And

45:18

the more of them that you send, the more responses

45:20

that you're going to get. And like you said,

45:22

the folks who have made

45:23

that sort of transition, they remember when it was hard

45:25

and it was unsure and they didn't know

45:28

if it was going to be possible. And they

45:30

don't want other people to have that same experience.

45:32

They want people to find whatever success

45:35

is on the other side of that wall, the success that

45:37

they have found. And so you will get

45:39

people responding to you if you send those messages

45:41

out, but only if you actually send them.

45:44

This has been really, really wonderful.

45:46

And I think, you know, a lot of layoff

45:49

advice is like,

45:51

hope that it doesn't go poorly, right?

45:53

Or like, go search for jobs. Like, this

45:55

has been actionable advice and

45:57

I am really grateful that you came on the show today.

45:59

Where can people find you if they want

46:02

to hear more from you? Sure,

46:04

so I am on your favorite social media

46:06

platform as Better With Phoebe, and you can head over

46:08

to my website, betterwithphoebe.com.

46:09

I do a free workshop

46:11

every month on career strategy.

46:14

Amazing, thank you again.

46:23

Thanks for listening to Work Appropriate. If you need

46:25

advice about a sticky situation at work, we're

46:27

here for you. Submit your questions at

46:29

workappropriate.com or send a voice memo

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46:50

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46:52

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46:56

And if you like the show, leave us a review on your podcast

46:58

app of choice. It really helps. Work

47:01

Appropriate is a Crooked Media production. I'm

47:03

Anne Helen Peterson, your host. Our

47:06

executive producer is Kendra James. Melody

47:08

Rowell is our producer and editor. Alison

47:10

Falsetta is our development producer. Music

47:13

is composed by Chanel Critchlow. Additional

47:15

production support from Ari Schwartz. And special

47:18

thanks to Katie Long and Sarah Geismar.

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