0:11

Hello and welcome to Work Check,

0:13

an original podcast from Atlassian, where

0:16

we debate whether the workplace practices of

0:18

today are still working for us. Hello

0:21

Atlassian community.

0:22

Nicely

0:26

done. That was a test. You passed. Great job.

0:30

I'm your host, Christine De La Rosa, and instead

0:32

of being both host and judge, as I normally

0:34

am for all these episodes, today I'm just your host.

0:37

As you heard a little bit earlier, you are actually all

0:39

going to decide on who the winner is. So, at

0:42

the very end of the debate, you will by applause

0:44

decide who has moved you to

0:46

their side.

0:55

But you're not here to listen to all these announcements.

0:57

You are here for the talent our

0:59

debater is for today. We have

1:02

Deb Lau and Marshall

1:04

Walker-Lee. Please welcome

1:06

to the stage.

1:10

Hello, hello everybody. That

1:14

was an awkward hello. We did some winks that

1:17

you couldn't see and then almost high-fived

1:19

and then didn't. So, that's the exhilarating

1:21

thing that you're going to see from today, from this debate.

1:24

But I'm just going to jump right

1:26

in. I'm going to get started for our first ever live

1:29

show.

1:29

Sounds good? Deb,

1:34

Marshall, I like my remote

1:36

hangs like I like my magic show participation.

1:40

At first, I'm all sweaty. I'm dreading

1:42

the fact that I was picked to go up. But

1:44

then afterwards, I am relieved because I

1:46

got to see magic up close.

1:48

Very on-brand.

1:51

That's right. Today we're talking about virtual

1:53

socializing. And just to level

1:55

set, as we do for every episode,

1:58

let's just define what that means. Virtual socializing. socializing,

2:00

we're talking about a whole team

2:02

dedicating time, putting it on their calendars

2:05

for people to come together and not necessarily

2:07

talk about work. This

2:09

could be chitchat, this could be catch up, this could be an AMA

2:11

with different members, but essentially it's

2:13

a departure from talking about moving

2:16

work forward. Does that work? All

2:18

right. May I ask one clarifying question?

2:20

Of course you can, Marshall. So all those examples

2:22

you gave, they would all be happening during

2:24

working hours. Yes, that's correct. During the workday.

2:27

Whatever that may be for your team. Cool.

2:31

All right. Before we get into our actual

2:33

debates, we're going to start out with some opening statements.

2:36

All right. Since you're on my left, Marshall, why don't

2:38

we start with you? Great. Are

2:41

we going to put time up on the clock? I was told

2:43

I only had 90 seconds. Actually,

2:45

yeah. Oh, no, that is terrifying. All right.

2:48

Like this font, this is very intimidating. Wait, the

2:50

clock is ticking. I have to go. Okay. All

2:53

right. I want to start by asking the audience a question. I

2:55

need your help. I want you to applaud

2:57

if you agree with the following statement. Who

3:00

here has way more time than they

3:02

need to get their work done?

3:04

Okay. Well,

3:07

for the audience listening at home, that silence

3:09

you're hearing is confirming what I assumed,

3:11

which is that we are all very busy.

3:14

In the remote and hybrid world, many of us barely

3:16

have enough time to get our own work

3:19

done. And, Christine, you said that all

3:21

of the social events we're talking about today would be happening

3:23

during working hours. Correct. So at

3:26

the risk of stating the obvious, I want to state the obvious.

3:28

If it's happening during working hours, and

3:31

I'm expected to attend, it is

3:33

work, period. The aim

3:35

of the meeting might be lofty,

3:36

building relationships or reinforcing values.

3:38

But at the end of the day, if it's a happy hour or a

3:41

virtual scavenger hunt, if it's happening at 2 p.m.

3:43

on Thursday, it's work.

3:45

It's another meeting. So

3:47

just like we do with our other meetings, we need to

3:49

inspect these social events to make sure that they're

3:51

actually meaningful.

3:52

We need to ask, do they have a clear

3:55

purpose? Are they actually achieving

3:57

that purpose? And critically,

3:59

could we be

3:59

doing something else instead that might be

4:02

more effective. So to cut to the chase,

4:04

Christine, Deb, today I'm going to be arguing

4:07

that virtual socializing has

4:09

no purpose at all. Hm, both.

4:12

Maybe a murky purpose at best. And

4:14

that it's actually crowding out other activities

4:16

that could more meaningfully get us to

4:18

a place where we are happier and more productive at

4:20

work.

4:20

Nice. And time. Great job.

4:24

That's me commenting on you being within the time

4:26

limit, not necessarily my opinion.

4:28

Just to clarify,

4:30

Deb, there's a lot of

4:33

high level thoughts, strong statements. What do

4:35

you got for us? Very bold, Marshall. Yes,

4:38

I'll give it to you. They're sometimes very

4:41

cringy, but I truly believe

4:43

that they're worth it in the end. We

4:45

need something to stay connected

4:47

with each other now that we're hybrid

4:50

and remote and our teams are distributed across

4:52

the globe. Virtual hangs

4:55

are a way to build connective tissue that

4:57

successful teams have. I'm talking about

4:59

psychological safety. I'm talking about camaraderie,

5:03

a sense of trust that you have with your

5:05

teammates. It helps you also

5:07

stay familiar with the teammates that you barely

5:09

work with and maintain those

5:11

relationships. So when the time

5:14

comes that you need to work with that person,

5:16

you're not starting at zero. And

5:19

hybrid work now means that we

5:21

need to intentionally

5:23

make space for organic, small

5:26

talk to happen. We don't have the

5:28

water coolers. We don't have the elevator

5:31

rides. We don't have the hot lunch line

5:33

to catch up. I will admit, it's

5:35

not a one-to-one replacement for

5:38

in-person, but it's the best

5:40

we have. And not having anything,

5:42

I think, is bleak and

5:45

just makes it all about transactions.

5:47

Deb, another great job staying

5:50

within time. I

5:52

just want to say for both of your opening statements,

5:54

those are really great thought starters in terms

5:57

of what are the questions that we should be asking

5:59

and evaluating this debate.

5:59

Are we evaluating the right thing?

6:02

And if we are evaluating the right thing, do we have

6:04

the right means, the right practices in place to carry

6:06

them out? Great job, again, on your opening statements,

6:09

because that is going to transition us into our head-to-head

6:11

round.

6:14

Keep it light, keep it tight, and

6:16

let's get started. Marshall, you're up first.

6:19

Yeah, so I want to start by just quickly addressing

6:21

Deb. I think the last thing you said, I

6:24

heard you say that a world without virtual

6:26

socializing, if we're remote and hybrid, would

6:28

be bleak and

6:30

transactional. That's right. Okay,

6:32

so I just want to make sure I'm clear with everybody here

6:34

today and everybody listening that I'm not advocating

6:37

for a world where we optimize every

6:39

moment of work for productivity.

6:41

I'm not saying we should do away with socializing entirely.

6:44

I'm certainly not saying that we shouldn't be building relationships

6:47

with our colleagues. I just think there is a better

6:49

way to do it than all getting on a Zoom

6:51

together, but we'll talk about that more later. So

6:54

I want

6:55

to start by being vulnerable

6:57

with the two of you. Great, and everyone in front of us.

7:00

And I suppose all of these strangers in the audience.

7:04

So I'm confused

7:06

deeply, all right? Sorry,

7:08

that's not the right reaction. Oh, Tony Moore. Thank you.

7:11

I'm so sorry. You just went into therapist mode

7:13

and I appreciate that. Honestly,

7:15

after dozens and dozens

7:17

of virtual gatherings, I

7:19

still don't understand what the purpose

7:22

of these events is supposed to be. And

7:24

I don't think anyone else does either, which

7:27

is why they're so jumbled and

7:29

unpredictable and awkward. So I

7:32

asked some coworkers what they thought the purpose

7:34

of virtual socializing at work was, and

7:37

their answers were, predictably, all

7:39

over the place. One person said that they were supposed

7:41

to help us build relationships. Another person

7:43

said that they were supposed to relieve tension

7:46

and help the team move past stressful

7:48

events and trauma. And a third said

7:50

that they're kind of like medicine. I like this one.

7:53

There's something that we kind of have to take, even

7:55

though we don't like it, because somehow it's good for

7:57

us, even though we don't know why. Great

7:59

analogy. So my very informal

8:02

survey revealed that the outcome we're trying

8:04

to drive with these virtual socializing

8:07

events is fuzzy at best. So

8:09

I thought rather than starting by making a point, I would

8:11

just start by asking a question. Deb.

8:14

Marshall. Thank you. I

8:17

knew you were listening, but then you said my name and confirmed

8:19

it and I appreciate that. Look at this. Do

8:22

you feel like you understand the

8:24

purpose of virtual socializing

8:27

with your team? Can you enlighten me?

8:29

I will enlighten you, Marshall. I

8:31

say the outcome that we're striving

8:34

for here is connectedness. Whether

8:37

that's small, like getting familiar

8:39

with near strangers on your team, or

8:42

the big ways that we can be connected

8:44

to each other. Say we become friends

8:46

with someone that you'd want to invite to your wedding.

8:49

Familiarity greases

8:51

the wheels to make working with each other

8:53

easier. I'm more likely

8:56

to send a DM or give feedback

8:58

to a colleague

9:00

after having a few low stakes hangs with them. No,

9:02

I totally relate to that. I'm sorry to

9:04

cut you off. I am kind of

9:06

a nervous person. No, I don't believe

9:08

it. That's because we have developed

9:10

camaraderie and we have connectedness,

9:13

Marshall. But

9:15

if I just met you, if I just joined your team,

9:17

I don't know what you're like. I don't know how you're

9:19

going to react to me. So if we have

9:22

some social hangs, some good social credit in the

9:24

bank, I can take that forward

9:26

and know that I can rely on some good times

9:29

and not just assume that the first experience

9:31

I have with you may not be the best one. Right,

9:33

right. Exactly, Christine. And for

9:35

example, my team did a virtual

9:38

social hour where we shared our Enneagram

9:40

results with each other. And

9:42

I got to learn that my colleague George

9:45

and I are both helpers. Any helpers

9:47

in the house? Thank

9:50

you. So

9:53

now, because I know more about

9:55

what motivates George, what drives

9:57

him, I feel like I have a cliff note.

9:59

on how we can best collaborate

10:02

together on future projects. The

10:04

bigger connectedness point, friendship,

10:06

right? That's way less common. We can't engineer

10:09

becoming best friends with someone at work. Right.

10:12

But because we spend so

10:15

much time at work and so much time

10:17

with our work team, it's crucial

10:19

to have ways to make actual

10:21

friends at work. Who here

10:23

has a workplace best friend?

10:26

Anyone? Thank

10:29

you. And

10:32

who feels happier at work because

10:34

of that friend? Did

10:38

I just hear more applause than

10:40

the first round? Marshall, I hope you're paying

10:42

attention to all that clapping.

10:43

I thought you were my workplace best

10:46

friend. I didn't

10:48

clap because I'm really close to the mic. But

10:50

I would have. You know I'm sitting between the

10:53

both of you right now. So

10:56

work friends make us happier

10:58

at work

10:59

and make us more likely to stay at our jobs.

11:03

I actually have data to back this up. So data

11:05

from Gallup showed that having a work best

11:07

friend became even more important

11:09

during the pandemic. People who

11:11

had a close friend at work were more likely

11:13

to recommend their workplace to others,

11:16

stay at their job. And they reported

11:18

more job satisfaction. Oh, yeah. I've seen those

11:20

studies. Yeah. Our own state of teams

11:23

research confirms that. You

11:25

did. So

11:27

back to you, Marshall. OK,

11:29

there's a lot to respond to there. So

11:32

I agree. And I think

11:34

that your point about building

11:36

friendships in order to feel connected is important.

11:39

I stumbled across very similar research. I think it'd

11:41

be fair to say that right now we're experiencing

11:43

at work a crisis of connectedness.

11:46

Connectedness doesn't just make us more productive. It

11:48

makes us more likely to stick

11:50

around, more efficient, more

11:52

likely to deliver value to customers, and also critically

11:55

happier. And

11:57

it's plummeted since the beginning of the pandemic.

11:59

I think I saw a statistic that 70% of

12:02

workers say they feel less connected than they did four

12:04

years ago, right? So connectedness

12:06

is a serious problem and it's one worth

12:09

solving I think the challenge

12:11

and the crux of the argument today is that I

12:13

don't believe that organized

12:15

virtual social events are likely

12:18

to solve it and To circle

12:20

back to what I said in my opening statement I

12:22

think they are crowding out other opportunities

12:24

that we could be giving people to build that connectedness

12:27

Through different kinds of actions different kinds

12:29

of experiences

12:29

So

12:32

several studies have shown that you're

12:34

exactly right Deb Yes,

12:37

I know this Friendship

12:40

is the key to connectedness, right? It is better

12:42

to have deeper connections with a smaller

12:45

number of people at work rather than to feel

12:47

a surface level connection with a large Group

12:49

it's much more likely that you'll stick around if you have as

12:51

you said a work best friend not a lot of work

12:53

acquaintances right

12:55

so here's why I think that

12:57

Virtual socializing the way we currently

12:59

practice it is unlikely to help us

13:02

build those friendships and build this sense of

13:04

connectedness First of all virtual

13:06

group events are too often right now Just

13:09

a pale imitation of all the things we used

13:11

to do in person IRL all

13:13

jammed into this one Zoom sized

13:16

package Christine, you know, I love to talk

13:18

about Maslow's hammer sure do yeah And

13:20

so this is yet another situation just like

13:22

on our video call episode

13:25

of the podcast where we are using

13:27

video

13:27

calling technology as Maslow's

13:30

hammer and approaching every problem like that's

13:32

the solution to it, right? So I think

13:35

in order to give people with different preferences

13:38

more opportunities to build different types of connections

13:40

We need to let them break out We need

13:42

to let them have different types of opportunities to connect

13:45

and another problem with the organized

13:47

virtual socializing events We have now is

13:49

that they're forced they're mandated people

13:52

aren't very good at building connections when they're forced

13:54

to do it We need to allow people to connect

13:57

Organically,

13:57

we need to let people find their work best friend

14:00

we don't push work best friends together.

14:02

And as a final point here, I'll

14:05

just say that work friendships are great, fully

14:07

in support of work friendships, but they can

14:09

force you to walk a very fine line.

14:12

If you're a people manager, if

14:14

you're somebody whose job requires you

14:16

to give a lot of constructive criticism

14:19

in order to improve work, it can be tricky

14:21

when the people that you're having to give that criticism

14:23

to are your friends. I was in a situation

14:26

several years ago where I became work best friends

14:28

with a coworker of mine and then our roles

14:30

changed and I became his boss. And

14:33

my job was to give him a lot

14:36

of critical feedback. And so I found

14:38

myself on a daily basis having to decide

14:40

if I wanted to risk producing

14:43

lower quality work or risk harming

14:45

my friendship with my work best friend.

14:47

That sounds terrible. What did you do? I

14:49

think I did both things badly,

14:53

but I learned and I would probably approach it differently

14:55

today. So wrapping it up, I

14:57

will just say, I do think that the key here

14:59

is that everybody has different preferences

15:02

and people want to connect in different ways. So

15:04

we need more opportunities for organic

15:07

ad hoc self-organized activities, not

15:09

mandated Zoom calls.

15:12

I wonder though, if what you're saying Marshall

15:14

is true that we have

15:17

better ways to do it, then the question is

15:19

whether or not it's the best use of time and

15:22

which activities will help have

15:24

the most impact on the top priorities. Yeah,

15:26

I think that's right. Yeah, what do you think

15:28

about that? Oh, Marshall, you

15:30

said a lot. You said a lot there.

15:33

I'm gonna go back to, I think what

15:35

your main point is, is that we should

15:37

just allow these things to happen organically.

15:40

People should just sort of self-organize

15:43

hangs with the people they wanna hang

15:45

with, the people they're interested in. And

15:48

I think that's great. I'm not saying that you

15:50

can't do that. I'm actually

15:53

just saying that

15:54

teams need to make

15:56

space for all

15:59

kinds of person. Personalities on their team

16:01

say you're shy say

16:03

you're new to the team. Yeah, hi

16:06

Christine. Oh, sorry She

16:08

raised audio medium, but I raised my hand. That's me

16:11

You know these shy new people to the team.

16:14

They're probably not gonna be included

16:16

in these like organic Hangs

16:19

that are being organized on like

16:21

private channels like they're not gonna know

16:24

about them What about those people

16:26

then they become

16:27

even more sort of wallflowery?

16:30

I just think that people need ways

16:32

to break down barriers

16:34

of getting to know someone After

16:37

playing a jackbox game with

16:39

my team together and my

16:41

team is like about 50 people Deep

16:44

now I feel like it's easier to create

16:47

a connection or reach out after

16:49

that game For an organic

16:52

one-on-one coffee chat like oh that

16:54

joke you made was like really funny You

16:57

mentioned you liked a show that I like

16:59

Let's talk about it Let's

17:02

talk about beef and this is happening

17:05

in a DM after the social

17:07

hang I know you're saying all the cues that appeal

17:09

to me right now I'm not the judge for this event

17:11

just to remind everyone

17:12

I haven't finished beef yet So

17:15

can we keep the beef talk to a minimum? Yes.

17:17

Yes, I actually I actually want to say I relate to

17:19

that It's not just people who are

17:23

Perpetually shy I consider myself a shy person, but

17:25

once I get to know you once I have a relationship on

17:27

a team I'm pretty good. But if I'm

17:29

brand new so earlier in my career I

17:31

joined everyone was so

17:33

loud in a good way, but their personalities

17:36

were naturally like I'm gonna be out there I'm gonna

17:38

take up a lot of space in the room and I just don't

17:40

do that And so guess what a

17:42

whole bunch of people that I was supposed to be working with

17:45

I didn't know what they did and I was too

17:47

scared to ask them because it was a weird

17:49

way to I might get a set up a meeting

17:51

and be like I'd like to

17:53

I'd like to just get to know you and figure

17:55

out how we can better get along like it

17:57

seems like such a simple Thing and actually I do that practice

17:59

now

17:59

But at the time and a very

18:02

early stage young person in my career

18:04

Too scared to do it if someone had facilitated

18:06

that meet and greet or that conversation

18:09

for me I would have appreciated

18:11

it right right and you

18:13

know honestly I'm just afraid that you know purely

18:15

ad hoc organic Socializing

18:18

it's gonna leave a lot of people out and

18:20

it can reinforce a culture that supports

18:23

like clicks within the team

18:25

Interesting well so

18:27

as evidenced by the fact that I'm on a stage with you

18:29

right now Deb recording a podcast I'm not

18:31

a shy person, but I am

18:33

an introvert

18:35

I think we've got some other introverts on the stage

18:37

about the audience introverts make some noise

18:40

look at the introverts They love the clap

18:42

great job No,

18:44

but seriously I am an introvert I find having

18:47

to participate in these events

18:49

Deeply exhausting sure so

18:51

if I have to spend an hour in the middle of my day going

18:54

on a virtual scavenger hunt

18:56

and

18:57

Then return to work for the next three

18:59

hours I'm spent and

19:01

that is not how I would organize my energy

19:04

if I had say so right I'm being forced to do

19:06

it I Think that the

19:08

problem here is that we're assuming

19:10

that shy people People who are

19:12

introverted are suddenly going to benefit

19:15

from these forced group activities

19:17

that

19:18

might shine a spotlight on them and Compel

19:21

them to step forward and share personal information

19:23

about their lives or demonstrate a skill They

19:25

don't have like escaping a virtual

19:28

room, which I was not able to do by the way

19:30

twice Yeah,

19:32

yeah both as a shy and introverted person

19:35

off sites, especially off sites that are longer

19:38

than a day Really really

19:40

draining and when we try to make them virtual and I'm

19:42

on a screen and we're doing both Intense

19:46

work deep sessions

19:47

in addition to social hangs online.

19:51

I can't do anything else even after work I just need

19:53

to be by myself in a dark room and

19:55

close my eyes

19:56

Yeah, and I'll also

19:58

add it's not just introverts or pro-

19:59

people who are a little more recessive, who

20:02

might not want to socialize, there's lots of reasons

20:04

why people might have a different appetite,

20:07

a lower appetite for socializing. Somebody

20:09

who's single and 25 and

20:11

looking to make new friends might be much more

20:14

interested in devoting time to socializing

20:16

than somebody who's frankly like me, older

20:19

and a parent and really boring. So

20:22

I want to share one

20:25

quick story. Several years ago my wife

20:28

was on a team, she moved to a new team.

20:30

The team was full of 24, 25, 26 year

20:33

olds. Now this was an in-person team but

20:35

they also had the opportunity to work hybrid. So

20:37

they incorporated some virtual socializing

20:40

and a lot of in-person socializing.

20:42

So much so that it began to make it impossible

20:45

for her to meet her work deadlines. They would go for

20:47

two hour lunches in the middle of the day. They

20:49

would sometimes take an entire afternoon off

20:51

to go play top golf or drive go-karts,

20:54

right? And there was a lot of social pressure

20:56

on my wife to participate. Now my wife was

20:58

a little bit older, she was married, she had

21:00

kids she wanted to get home to. The younger

21:03

people on her team didn't mind missing

21:05

out on several hours of work in the middle of the day because

21:07

they just ended up staying late together and

21:09

then going out for drinks at 9 p.m. when they wrapped

21:11

up work. So my wife every day had

21:13

to decide well do I want to alienate

21:15

myself from this team or do I want

21:17

to miss time with my family,

21:20

right? And so the

21:21

same dynamic can start appearing when we're

21:23

virtually socializing and our time is so precious.

21:26

Yikes Marshall, I mean that's

21:28

not great for your wife but

21:31

I think the the problem

21:33

that is really here is

21:35

that

21:36

your wife's job scheduled virtual

21:39

social time without taking away

21:41

tasks and without moving

21:44

project deadlines. They

21:46

treated it as like an add-on which

21:48

I think is really unfair. We've got

21:50

to approach this at a systems

21:53

level. We absolutely

21:55

need to take things away from people's

21:57

plates to make the space and

21:59

time

21:59

for social hangs. And

22:02

you know, I could speak from experience on our

22:04

team. I'm

22:05

a designer on the creative team at Atlassian.

22:08

We structure every bi-weekly meeting

22:10

to open with an icebreaker and

22:13

then someone spends like 20 minutes

22:15

doing an about-me presentation and

22:18

sharing about themselves with the group. And

22:21

by doing this, it demonstrates

22:24

that our culture, our team culture, we

22:26

value connection and teamwork.

22:29

It's a way that we live our values.

22:32

So before I make

22:34

my final

22:35

point, who in the audience has

22:38

regularly occurring like date

22:40

nights with their partner or with their

22:42

friends? Give me some applause if you have calendared

22:47

quality time. Thank

22:49

you. So a lot of

22:51

you, right? And

22:53

what I'm suggesting here

22:56

is what if we viewed regular virtual

22:58

social hangs with our teammates like

23:01

an intentional date night? So

23:04

I know it feels weird and unnatural

23:07

that you're like scheduling quality time

23:09

into your calendars, but I think

23:11

doing so says that you

23:13

prioritize those relationships and

23:16

that you value making space for knowing

23:18

them better. Hmm.

23:19

I

23:21

have a lot of mixed emotions there because on the one hand

23:23

I feel like you just told me that my wife should have gone on

23:25

dates with her team instead of with me. That's

23:28

not what I was saying. But on

23:31

the other hand, I feel like I heard you say

23:33

that I should be allowed to move my deadlines so

23:35

that I can go go karting. So that's great.

23:37

And Scott and MCB are here. So if you want to pitch that,

23:39

I think now is the best time.

23:43

So yeah, it's interesting.

23:45

This question of can we remove items

23:48

from the calendar. I think we'd all like to believe

23:50

that in theory, yes. I

23:52

think in practice we all find that to be

23:55

challenging, if not impossible. And

23:57

I think of this

23:59

being like a little

23:59

little like a garden. The garden is starting

24:02

to get full of weeds. If we want

24:04

the garden to flourish, if we want new things to grow,

24:06

we have to pull some of the weeds. And I think that

24:08

once we do that, there's a lot of interesting

24:11

things that we could explore that might be a little better

24:13

designed, a little more intentional that could

24:15

help us build this sense of connectedness. In fact, there's

24:17

a great Atlassian work life article

24:20

all about this, ways that you can connect both

24:22

sync and async with your team, suggest things

24:24

like building a Spotify playlist together

24:26

and sharing gifts over Slack

24:29

or over

24:29

Trello. I think even if we want to keep

24:32

using Zoom, there's more interesting ways we

24:34

can do it. We can make time for

24:36

donuts and other one-on-one connections where we

24:38

have the opportunity to build deeper relationships

24:41

and get past small talk. I

24:43

think if we tried to live our values

24:45

day in and day out, which I'm sure most of us do, we

24:47

might find that the work itself could

24:50

help us feel more connected. And

24:53

I love this idea of using

24:55

our work practices, whether they're

24:57

our agile ceremonies, our one-on-ones

24:59

or just our Slack conversations, as

25:02

an opportunity, a location where more

25:04

meaningful socializing and connection can

25:06

happen if we show up with our full

25:09

selves, with our full humanity. Personally,

25:11

I've never felt more connected to my teammates

25:13

than when we're really humming, working well together,

25:16

respecting each other and producing great

25:18

work that delivers value. So

25:21

in the end, I'd just like to close by saying

25:23

I love the

25:26

idea of being able to socialize

25:28

with an entire group of people with whom

25:29

you're connected because you build projects

25:32

together, you ship work together. I don't

25:34

think we have the tools to do it now. And I think

25:36

the much more important problem is that spending

25:39

time doing it actually makes us less

25:41

likely that we'll get the outcome we want, this feeling

25:43

of connectedness, this feeling of having

25:45

really purposeful social bonding at work.

25:48

I think that's more likely to emerge through

25:50

other channels, and those channels will open

25:52

up once we pull some of the weeds, so to speak.

25:55

I like the metaphor continuation. Deb,

25:58

do you?

25:59

Do I like that metaphor? It was

26:02

a good metaphor. I'll give Marshall

26:04

that. But for me,

26:06

I don't think we should throw out the baby

26:09

with the bathwater.

26:09

Ooh, metaphor upon

26:11

metaphor. Had to hit you with

26:13

one. Though there isn't

26:16

a universally successful

26:18

formula, like we haven't hit it yet, for

26:21

virtual social time, there

26:23

are versions that work well for

26:26

many people.

26:27

So I just feel like

26:29

the demand for connectedness is just

26:31

going to skyrocket as we become more

26:34

distributed or across time

26:36

zones. And

26:37

so what I want to do is like, let's

26:40

lift the baby out of the tub. Let's

26:43

dry her off. Let's pour

26:45

out the bathwater. Okay. Right.

26:50

Take a look in the mirror. Okay. Let's

26:53

be honest with ourselves about what's

26:55

working and what's not.

26:57

Let's try out some new tactics to

27:00

see what activities and what cadence

27:03

works for each team.

27:05

We can be agile about this,

27:07

Marshall. And let's not

27:10

let perfect be the enemy of

27:12

the good. Wow.

27:15

You turned it up. See, I appreciate that. Honestly,

27:19

I kind of feel like you're both agreeing.

27:22

Like you both want this connectedness. We are

27:24

all acknowledging that we are feeling

27:26

less connected to each other. We're becoming more

27:28

distributed on our teams. We need to find ways

27:31

to improve that situation. And the big

27:33

question that both of you are asking

27:36

is, is virtual

27:38

socializing the way to do it? And

27:41

at what point do we decide, hey, that's

27:44

probably been enough. We should try a different tactic

27:46

and start from scratch. Or, hey, there's some

27:48

benefits. And that's enough of

27:50

a positive indication that we should continue to explore

27:53

and figure this out further. But thankfully

27:55

for me, I don't need to decide what the answer to

27:58

this debate question is. In fact, all of you... you

28:00

out there in the lighting community are gonna get

28:02

to decide. So if you

28:04

think that Marshall is today's winner, that

28:06

teams should not dedicate

28:09

time for virtual socializing, please

28:11

let me hear you by applause and screams.

28:13

Ha ha ha ha. Whoo! Cool.

28:20

Cool.

28:22

All right, some sustained applause

28:24

there. You're a lot of a general chatter. I think the people

28:26

have spoken and we can stop there. Ha ha ha

28:29

ha. If you think

28:31

Deb should win and you agree that teams should

28:34

dedicate time for virtual socializing,

28:36

let's hear it. Deb's side. Whoo!

28:42

Thank you,

28:43

thank you. Okay,

28:46

I did not anticipate that I would not be able to tell the

28:48

difference between which side was louder.

28:51

So I'm gonna actually go into our sound

28:53

team. Come on, Sean.

28:56

Oh. I'd like to award the winner of the side

28:59

for Deb. That team

29:01

should dedicate time for virtual

29:03

socializing. I feel like this is rigged because I know for a fact

29:05

that Deb had dinner with Sean last night. So

29:08

did you, so did you. Great,

29:10

well let's keep the jokes going in our own, perhaps

29:13

virtual socializing after this conference. Nice work, Rachel. But

29:15

in the meantime, while I have the mic and I'm on the stage

29:17

in front of all of you, I'd like to just publicly thank

29:20

everyone that has been involved in this process for

29:22

not just this episode and this debate, but for the show.

29:25

Wanna thank, of course, our debaters today, Deb

29:28

Lau and Marshall Walker Lee. As

29:31

well as the rest of our debaters from season

29:33

three. Just gonna list them off.

29:36

Marin Hotvet, Ronnie Shaw, David Shaw,

29:38

Shannon Winter and Kelvin Yap. Also,

29:40

shout out to Joey Sabio and Deb Lau

29:42

for their artwork on the show. Digital support

29:45

from Jessica Lynn and Jamie Austin. And finally,

29:48

WorkCheck is produced with the huge help of

29:50

the team at Pacific Content, including Pippa

29:52

Johnstone, Annie Ruder, Carla Hilton, and

29:54

with sound design by Robin Edgar and Sean

29:57

Cole. Round of applause for all those folks, please.

29:59

Thank you.

30:03

And for those that are listening on the podcast,

30:05

visit atlassian.com slash

30:07

blog for transcripts and more about this show. And

30:10

until next time, I'm Christine De La Rosa

30:12

and this is Work Check, an original podcast

30:14

from Atlassian.