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1:07

There's always a power dynamic in an interview, but

1:10

I try to do more groundwork

1:13

to invite them in for it to

1:15

be a conversation. So

1:17

it's not only sort of

1:19

extracting, like me doing

1:21

all that work and the person just feeling totally

1:23

spent at the end of an interview. Welcome

1:29

back to Working. I'm your host, June

1:31

Thomas. And I'm your other host,

1:33

Ronald Young Jr. Ronald, it is

1:35

so nice to be chatting with you again. But

1:39

tell me whose voice, familiar voice, I should say,

1:41

did we hear at the top of the show?

1:44

That was Anna Sale. She is the host

1:46

of Death, Sex and Money, which has recently

1:48

relaunched as a part of the Slate family

1:50

of podcasts. So it's like

1:52

our sister podcast or cousin or nibbling.

1:57

I imagine that most people who are listening

1:59

to this show. We'll be familiar with the

2:01

wonder that is Death, Sex and Money, but

2:04

for those who have not yet heard it,

2:06

Ronald, how would you describe the podcast? Ronald

2:09

Bailey Death, Sex and Money describes itself

2:11

as a podcast about things we avoid

2:13

talking about and need to talk about

2:15

more often. Hence the name of those

2:17

taboo subjects that aren't exactly small talk

2:19

fodder at a party. Danielle

2:21

Pletka Indeed. All right. I

2:24

am very excited to hear this interview, but

2:26

say, do you have anything extra just

2:28

for Slate Plus members? Ronald

2:30

Bailey So in our Slate Plus segment, we tackle

2:33

a little bit of the money section of Death,

2:35

Sex and Money, and I asked Anna about her

2:37

relationship with money and what that looks like in

2:39

her personal life. That leads us to touch a

2:41

little bit about how she felt about the cancellation

2:44

of the show before it was revived here at

2:46

Slate and how that impacted her view of her

2:48

own financial stability. It's really interesting to hear from

2:50

her about this. But then we also talk about

2:52

her favorite interviewer, someone that Anna looks up to,

2:55

and I'm very, very excited for her to share

2:57

that with you. Danielle Pletka You

2:59

followed the advice that is implicit in the

3:01

title of Anna's podcast, so I cannot wait

3:03

to hear that. And if you're a

3:06

member of Slate Plus, you will hear that at the

3:08

end of the episode. If you

3:10

aren't, it is really easy to join

3:12

as a Slate Plus member. You get

3:14

to hear extra segments on this show

3:16

and others like the Culture Gab Fest

3:18

and Care and Feeding, which is

3:21

the parenting podcast formerly known as Mom and

3:23

Dad are Fighting. You'll get

3:25

bonus episodes of podcasts like Slow

3:27

Burn and of course, you will never

3:29

hit a paywall on slate.com. To

3:32

learn more, go to slate.com/working

3:35

plus. Okay,

3:39

let's hear Ronald's conversation with Anna

3:41

Sale. This

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podcast is brought to you by

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on how you by. Why?

5:19

Don't you tell me who you are and

5:22

what you do? My name

5:24

is Anna Sale. I'm a journalist

5:26

and I host the interview So

5:28

Death, Sex and Money. And you're

5:30

also an author, correct? I am also

5:32

an author. I wrote a book called let's talk

5:35

about hard things are Love it I love it's

5:37

of. Of. Start with the. Easy

5:39

ones. I'm wondering. if you consider

5:41

yourself to be a creative? I

5:43

don't like to force a label

5:45

on anyone would do you consider

5:47

yourself to be a creative person

5:49

Or a creative? I fucked up,

5:51

Heard it said both ways. I.

5:54

Don't personally call myself

5:57

creative as a noun.

6:01

A few like. I think

6:04

it speaks said that my background in

6:06

my career path. I I've always been.

6:09

Like up. A worker. I've

6:12

always been a staff employee. I didn't

6:14

go to art school. Night and

6:16

com at audio making some

6:19

a sort of. Artistic

6:21

background: I came from a journalistic

6:23

background, but of course the reason

6:25

I love making. Audio

6:27

Journalism is because it's such

6:29

a son. Creative. Process.

6:33

I. Actually have just started really thinking. About.

6:35

This fairly recently about what

6:38

it is about audio. Like.

6:41

What parts of me or an. Artist An Ice.

6:43

During my break between working for W

6:45

N Y C and joining Slate I

6:47

had about five weeks of of not

6:49

having a job and I found myself

6:52

like spending a lot of time listening

6:54

to music and I went to some

6:56

like live music shows and and it

6:58

really made me think a lot about.

7:01

How so much of the roots

7:03

of what I do? Now started

7:05

when I was like making mix

7:07

tapes and my bedroom with my

7:09

like boombox. I love that. Like. But I

7:11

wouldn't have. I didn't connect that early

7:13

on because I started in a very

7:16

in a conventional newsroom setting. I would

7:18

cover you know, press conferences and legislative

7:20

hearings in West Virginia and like, so

7:22

it didn't look like. Dj.

7:24

Anna? you know, But. Like. So

7:26

much of what we do it

7:28

that sex and Money is about

7:30

timing and the pace of even

7:32

like how I choose to like.

7:35

Come. In with a follow up question

7:37

jump piece. My words like there's a real

7:39

musicality to it. That.

7:42

I like thinking about. even though

7:44

didn't occur to me for years and

7:47

years it's funny you say that because

7:49

wanted about my relationship with audio production

7:51

a were it hasn't been until fairly

7:54

recently that i thought of myself as

7:56

a create is now or creative pursuits

7:58

and sisters It's only been

8:00

fairly recently that I've even looked at myself that way

8:02

because I was just like, well, I'm just out here

8:04

telling stories like what I'm doing and I could see

8:07

the similarities between you as a journalist,

8:09

uh, just saying, I'm just reporting the facts here.

8:12

But I, I think, are you, are you

8:14

beginning to embrace that title as a creative

8:16

person? Yeah. And I

8:18

also am coming to appreciate like

8:21

what I, what I think I'm distinctly good

8:23

at as a journalist, what I'm proud of

8:25

is I do think I'm really good at relational

8:29

reporting, like relational interviewing. And

8:31

what I mean by that is like, you

8:34

can throw me in a room and I'm going to figure out

8:36

a way to, to kind of somehow

8:38

forge some kind of, if, if I can

8:41

speak the same language as the person, find

8:43

some way in to learn

8:46

something and to kind of pull out an interesting

8:48

story. And I think that

8:50

that's also deeply creative work too.

8:53

But again, because maybe what

8:56

I thought of as a capital A artist

8:58

was like someone who, you know,

9:01

it's all about their grand genius ideas that

9:03

they come up all on their

9:05

own, my kind of creativity doesn't look

9:07

like that. I love that. My

9:10

introduction to you was through, of course,

9:13

the podcast, Deaf Sex and Money, which

9:15

was originally with WNYC. Now it was

9:17

with Slate. So we have sister podcasts.

9:19

We're siblings now. Yeah. But

9:22

for those who don't know you, can you tell me

9:24

a little bit about your life before Deaf Sex and

9:26

Money? What did you do? Sure. I

9:30

started in public radio in 2005. That

9:34

was my first job as a journalist. I

9:36

started in the newsroom at West Virginia Public

9:39

Radio and I covered kind of,

9:41

I was a general assignment reporter and they taught me

9:44

how to edit audio. And I

9:46

would cover the state capital, but

9:48

even then I can remember sort of like

9:51

I like covering the news. I found it exciting

9:53

and I liked the sense of service about it,

9:56

but I would, I can remember

9:58

like mid legislative session being like. Hmmm.

10:00

I think I need to go to southern

10:03

West Virginia an interview and old bluegrass me

10:05

this and to select cleanse the palette. You

10:07

know sites I always have liked. Doing

10:10

like a combination of. Hard

10:12

news and things that speak to our moment and

10:15

what's happening in. Our world and then

10:17

also to psych really diving and

10:19

deep for profile interviews and so

10:21

I did that, and newsrooms in

10:23

West Virginia. And then I worked for

10:25

Connecticut Public Radio and worked in Hertford.

10:28

And. Then I moved to New York

10:30

City in Two thousand Nine when I

10:33

was twenty nine years old. And

10:36

I made my way into that

10:38

the runway see and started. I.

10:40

Produced. Worked producing. A

10:43

national radio shows and then I got

10:45

into the newsroom and was a reporter

10:47

there and then pitched Death, Sex and

10:49

Money. As a show

10:52

idea and Twenty Thirteen and that been

10:54

able to make it for ten years

10:56

now. Now you glossed over that bit

10:58

of Wrc reporting because you were specifically

11:01

you Copper Politics wrote a dead yes

11:03

to be toby of really notable coverage

11:05

He did his politics reported that he

11:08

said with a smile of six have

11:10

I told you what are my proudest

11:12

moments as it of am I see

11:15

politics or first I would have hurt

11:17

have. So I was a

11:19

politics supporter and I did both a cop

11:21

out when all around the country and twenty

11:23

eleven and Twenty twelve covering. Kind of

11:25

talking to voters around the a presidential

11:28

campaign. and thousand and twelve and then

11:30

and twenty thirteen. I covered the New

11:32

York City Mayor's race. And.

11:37

I don't know why I'm so proud of this moment,

11:39

but I am. I. I part of that.

11:41

Mayoral. Campaign you may. Not

11:43

remember I'm Anthony Wiener was

11:45

one of the candidates running

11:47

and the democratic primary and

11:49

the time and this was

11:51

asked her he had last

11:53

congress because of this sexting.

11:55

Scandal that him come out. And.

11:59

so in the middle the mayoral race while he's

12:01

launching this comeback, a

12:04

second sexting scandal breaks. I

12:07

do remember this. And so

12:09

I was assigned to go to the

12:11

press conference where

12:14

it was not only Anthony

12:16

Weiner but also his wife. And

12:19

it's like a national media story, it's a local

12:21

media story, and I was sitting on the floor

12:23

like right in front of the podium

12:26

where they were. And

12:28

they took a few questions and a

12:31

bunch of people asked, you know, they were like questions

12:33

about like the timeline of

12:35

when, which sex happened when and how

12:37

and he'd said this before and was

12:39

he lying then and that

12:42

kind of thing. And I was

12:44

just sitting on the floor being like, this man is

12:46

running to run New York City. Like

12:48

he is asking the voters of New York City

12:51

to support him to be their leader. And

12:55

we're not talking about that. And

12:57

then they sort of turned to leave both

13:00

Anthony Weiner and his wife, Huma Abedine, at

13:02

the time. And I'd like

13:04

raised my hand sitting on the floor and I

13:07

have my headphones on. I like look like such

13:09

a public radio dweeb. I like have bad posture.

13:12

And I just start screaming. I just say like, why

13:15

should we trust your judgment? Why?

13:18

Why should we trust your judgment? And

13:21

I repeat it like several times as

13:23

they're walking away, they kind of pause and look

13:25

at me and then they keep going. And

13:28

the reason I can remember the cadence of my question

13:31

is because it was then in

13:33

this documentary called Weiner that was

13:35

of this press conference. And

13:38

I think what I

13:40

find kind of interesting about that moment

13:43

is to me, it makes

13:45

me proud as a journalist that I was like,

13:47

wait, what is this actually about? I

13:49

don't really care about Anthony Weiner's personal life. I

13:51

don't really care about his marriage. The

13:54

reason we care about this stuff is because

13:56

it's A baseline. He's making some

13:58

kind of character argument. You

14:00

know as he runs to be our political leaders.

14:03

And nobody's ask him about that. Would

14:05

you showed me that clip show that before

14:07

he did a talk at resume and now

14:09

last year or which is upon audio conference

14:11

that it is how the Richmond Virginia but

14:14

I remember that I bragged about it is

14:16

it is inserted a soda to be considered

14:18

doing it to talk to your lights if

14:20

we I'm also this clip official be this

14:22

clip of his big screen at it's It's

14:24

It's baby at a sale light Saudi and

14:26

at a winner and I remember at the

14:28

time be like wow. That.

14:39

Is us a stark contrast in terms

14:42

of like how's your conducting interviews now

14:44

you know and I was wondering it's

14:46

not m it does not a criticism

14:48

I love it to be clear but

14:51

the Obama was wondering in terms of

14:53

how you homes your style of interview

14:55

like and death sex money It's very

14:57

very like warm, very very are vulnerable

14:59

which is like kind of my bag

15:02

you dope. Do you feel like you

15:04

develop that interview style from your work

15:06

and political reporting or the something that

15:08

kind of like came as part of

15:11

birthed with the shelf. I

15:13

think I don't think of it as

15:15

separate laid off am. I

15:18

think that's the way that I interviewed

15:20

public officials. You know, like I wouldn't

15:22

do that. Is Anthony

15:24

Weiner hadn't been running for mayor, I

15:27

wouldn't have shouted at him like that

15:29

It and even when when like I

15:31

also in that campaign interviewed Bill De

15:33

Blasio who went on to become. Mayor

15:36

of New York City. and it it was

15:38

sort of. It was revealed by the New

15:40

York Post that his father had died by

15:42

suicide during the course of that campaign. And

15:44

it's not something that has. I believe

15:46

his kids found that out by an

15:49

item that was placed in the near

15:51

post me and. The. Deposit campaign

15:53

reached out to me and they said. He's

15:55

gonna talk about this one time. And he will talk

15:57

with you about it. And and so I. interviewed

16:00

him about being the son

16:02

of a dad

16:04

who struggled with mental illness and

16:08

depression and addiction and how that

16:10

led to suicide and how his

16:12

family dealt with it. And

16:15

that wasn't like a, wasn't shouting at him.

16:17

That was like maybe like a death, sex

16:19

and money style interview even though he was

16:21

a public official. So

16:24

I guess I think that they're

16:26

sort of related in that I,

16:28

the reason I pitched death,

16:30

sex and money is I was like,

16:32

I want to hear more conversation about

16:35

stuff that's like where

16:38

we're really trying to say what we mean

16:40

and we're talking about what's actually happening because

16:43

I would cover, I would talk to voters

16:45

and I would do death, sex and money

16:47

style interviews, you know, in outside

16:50

campaign rallies or in parking

16:52

lots at shopping centers and ask people how

16:54

they felt like things were going in the country. And I would

16:56

hear these like really personal

16:59

stories and I would, you

17:01

know, people would share with me and I thought

17:03

that was like really interesting stuff. And I wanted

17:05

to make more

17:07

of that the center of my journalism

17:09

instead of, you know, pivoting

17:12

immediately as you do in a

17:15

politics story, you know, you'd say this voter says

17:17

thinks this in this county in Iowa and this

17:19

is representative of these polls. And then you look at, talk right

17:21

about the polls and you move on and it's the end of your

17:23

story, you know. So I wanted

17:25

to do more journalism where we,

17:28

where we like talked about

17:31

what's really going on and what I think are the

17:33

things that have actually the highest stakes in all of

17:35

our lives, which is like how we treat one another,

17:37

what our relationships are like with our loved ones, where

17:41

we feel alone and vulnerable. If

17:44

we've got the money to take care of ourselves and our

17:46

loved ones and if not, what's getting in the way of that,

17:48

you know, that kind of thing. I

17:51

never saw it as on the same spectrum

17:53

until like you explained it well. Like I

17:55

think I'm thinking in my mind, especially as

17:57

someone like, you know, I make a deeply

17:59

vulnerable. podcast with a

18:01

wait for it. So like when I think

18:03

about what it looks like to sit out

18:05

and ask a question, my mindset is completely

18:07

different when I'm like talking to my friends

18:09

or someone else that I feel some sort

18:11

of kinship with versus someone I feel like

18:13

I'm like you said like a public

18:16

official where it's like you have a responsibility here

18:18

and like I feel like my mindset is different

18:20

but I never thought of them as on the

18:22

on the same spectrum and I completely understand where

18:24

you're coming from. I'm

18:26

also wondering like when you dive

18:28

into something that is deeply

18:31

personal like death, sex, and money you

18:33

know and you really want to have

18:35

the real conversations did you

18:37

feel like along the way when you're unpacking

18:39

that type of vulnerability from people and asking

18:42

those types of questions that you

18:44

made any missteps that kind

18:46

of became the guiding force

18:48

for how you actually wanted to engage in

18:50

these discussions. You know

18:53

I think I've learned over time I can

18:56

remember this is actually before starting death, sex,

18:58

and money. I've

19:00

always been like

19:02

really interested in narrative

19:06

people's narrative and

19:08

what I mean by that is like if

19:10

somebody's said like I'll do

19:12

an interview with you about this I'll be like

19:14

okay cool but I want to understand that I

19:17

want you to retell the whole story and I

19:20

can remember this was I

19:22

was still in my 20s I was reporting in Connecticut

19:24

and I was doing a story about I

19:27

think it was it was some

19:29

kind of theater group that worked with incarcerated

19:32

and formerly incarcerated women and

19:34

through it I met this woman who had spent time

19:36

in prison on a drug

19:39

driving charge and had killed someone I

19:42

believe in an accident and

19:45

I was interviewing her

19:47

like before a rehearsal and

19:50

I was like tell

19:53

me what happened you know and interviewed

19:55

her about the day that that that

19:57

happened and I didn't get

19:59

at the time like, yes,

20:02

this person had said I want to do

20:04

this interview with you because I'm proud of

20:06

being in this theater production. And

20:09

I didn't flag

20:12

like, I'm going to ask you

20:14

these things about the, you know, what happened that

20:16

day, if you don't want to get

20:18

into it, I understand. Like I didn't do a sort

20:20

of like setting

20:22

the expectations of what the conversation was going

20:24

to be. And I just

20:26

was asking question after question. And

20:29

I didn't recognize, I think at the time

20:31

as a young reporter that whenever a reporter

20:33

is asking you questions, especially if

20:35

you don't have a lot of exposure to the media, you

20:38

feel like you have to answer them. And,

20:42

you know, I remember feeling afterward like,

20:45

Oh, I think this was more than what she bargained

20:48

for this conversation, like the way I

20:50

did this interview. And so

20:52

I think that that's something I

20:55

always think about is

20:57

like, is there's always a power

20:59

dynamic in an interview. And it

21:02

shows up in lots of different ways. But

21:04

like, I want to try to make explicit

21:06

with the people I'm interviewing, what

21:09

we're doing and why and like, where

21:11

now I talk about,

21:13

you know, before we start, you

21:16

know, if I ask about anything that you want to talk about,

21:18

you know, please say so. I also say

21:20

like, if somebody comes

21:22

up in the course of our conversation, it's like

21:24

not here. Like, let's talk about like how you

21:27

want to deal with their privacy. You know, if

21:29

I ask a question that seems like it's framed

21:31

in a way that's not how you think about

21:33

your own experience, like please feel free to push

21:35

back, you know, on the premise, like I

21:37

try to have more, and it still doesn't

21:40

like the power dynamic is still

21:42

there, but I've, I try to do more

21:44

groundwork to invite them in for it to

21:46

be a conversation. So it's

21:48

not only sort of taking

21:51

extracting, like

21:54

me doing all that work, and

21:56

the person just feeling totally spent, and

21:58

like they've just given and given. and maybe given

22:00

more than they intended to at the end of an interview.

22:04

That feels like, especially when we're

22:06

talking about personal or vulnerable details,

22:09

it feels like something that's

22:12

almost impossible to be avoided, especially when you

22:14

think about like you said, the power dynamic

22:16

between being the reporter

22:18

or the interviewer and the interviewee. Even

22:21

while you were talking about that, I began

22:23

thinking about that on your behalf for our

22:25

discussion right now. I know

22:27

we're both professionals. You know what I mean? So how

22:30

do you, I guess

22:32

I'm wondering like, because you've done some

22:34

very deeply personal interviews on Death, Sex

22:37

and Money. Do you ever feel like

22:39

you're working to get your own kind

22:41

of doubt or caution

22:43

and wanting to ask a question

22:46

that maybe you shouldn't? Digging. Exactly.

22:49

Yeah. Like, do you feel

22:51

some sort of conflict? I think there's certainly a tension. Yes.

22:54

That's a better word. And at

22:57

the same time, it's

22:59

not only one way,

23:02

like it's not only bad

23:04

to dig and be attentive

23:07

because there's also,

23:10

there can also be something

23:13

really incredible that

23:15

happens when someone does

23:18

feel you being really precise

23:22

in trying to understand what

23:24

they've gone through and really paying

23:26

attention. And that

23:28

also, that doesn't happen a lot in our

23:30

lives where someone's like, let me really, really

23:33

kind of try to be there with, go

23:35

back there with you and understand what you went through. But

23:39

there are some hazards along with that. And

23:41

I think the other tension is

23:45

when you're a journalist doing these interviews with

23:47

the intention of collecting

23:50

tape that's going to become something that you

23:52

share with listeners, I'm

23:55

also thinking about the listener and

23:57

I'm thinking about what will the

23:59

listener need to kind of hook

24:01

their fingers onto the story. Like sometimes

24:04

that's trying to elicit a scene so

24:06

a listener can sort of be transported

24:08

somewhere. And sometimes that's

24:10

like pushing back

24:13

if, you know, I try to think about what

24:15

a listener who might have had a really different

24:17

experience might want me to say,

24:19

you know, or

24:21

if somebody's talking about doing something that harmed someone

24:23

else, like I think of somebody who's had that

24:26

harm done to them listening along, like what would

24:28

they want me to say to this person? So

24:31

it's really like multi-dimensional. And

24:35

I guess I've come to a place where it's like, I

24:38

take this work really seriously. And I really,

24:40

every interview, I do the best I can.

24:42

I also, I've messed

24:45

up before, and I'm going to mess up

24:47

again. And when

24:49

a listener or a reader or somebody

24:51

like reaches out and says like, you, I wish you'd

24:54

asked this, or I wish you didn't do it this

24:56

way. It's like, you know, take

24:58

it in. Like I try to be receptive to that

25:00

and consider it. And

25:03

I try to, if somebody feels wronged by

25:05

us in the editorial process, like that's,

25:09

we take a lot of care at our show

25:11

to kind of communicate with

25:13

people before, during and

25:15

after a taping and before an episode comes out.

25:18

So at least there's not surprise.

25:20

Like we don't, you know, we're

25:23

not gotcha people. There are gotcha reporters

25:25

out there, but that's not the kind of work that we do.

25:28

And even, even like if a rerun is airing, we

25:30

want to make sure people know like, oh, this

25:32

thing that you recorded three years ago is going to

25:34

be popping up in people's podcast feeds. Cause

25:37

you know, you don't want to surprise people in that. Just trying to be attentive.

25:44

We'll be back with more of Ronald's

25:46

conversation with Anna Sale. We've

25:58

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we want to hear from you.

28:00

Every other Thursday on Working Overtime,

28:02

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28:05

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28:07

tell us your challenges and let

28:09

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get your podcasts. Now

28:32

let's return to Ronald's conversation with

28:34

Anna Sale. Talk

28:36

to me about the process of pitching

28:39

an episode of Death, Sex and Money.

28:42

Oh, there's so many different ways that

28:44

a little idea comes to life.

28:47

We just had a pitch meeting earlier today. It can

28:49

be from like, you know, someone might be

28:52

like, I love this person and what

28:54

they make. And I heard them say this one

28:56

thing and I think there's more opportunity to dig

28:58

there and let's just reach out. And I'm like,

29:00

cool, let's try it. You

29:02

know, there could be something like,

29:05

oh, there's this like big public

29:08

policy question. What are some different ways we

29:10

could come at this with people

29:13

who are engaging with it from different

29:15

angles? And then we kind of think about booking in

29:17

that way. Sometimes

29:20

it's somebody's written an interesting memoir and we're

29:22

just like, want to dig in with them

29:24

about it. I think

29:26

that's what makes the show so

29:28

kind of, I had

29:30

no idea when I was pitching it that

29:32

I was giving myself this gift and giving

29:34

our team this gift. But it's like such

29:36

a flexible frame because

29:38

the only thing that the show

29:41

has to do is

29:43

have someone's voice talking about

29:45

something that you might feel some like

29:47

isolation around. And there's a lot of

29:50

different ways to make episodes about that.

29:52

Like sometimes it's me doing

29:54

a really, you know, in-depth interview

29:56

with somebody. Sometimes it's a lot

29:59

of different voices of people. people weighing in on

30:01

some open question. Sometimes it's

30:03

like, you know, a live

30:05

variety show built around some theme around

30:07

some kind of dynamic that

30:10

happens in life. Like it's so

30:12

flexible. And then you sort of go

30:14

out and you the team and we all try

30:16

to sort of like who's which bookings are coming through? What's

30:18

the order of the taping? And then

30:21

in what order are we going to process this taping?

30:23

Because what's the like, you know,

30:25

what's the ongoing conversation? What do we want it to

30:27

be like in the feed? You know, if

30:29

it's a few different people

30:31

in a row who are, you know,

30:34

people who have some kind of

30:36

like media presence or they've written books, like we

30:38

want to kind of then change it up with

30:40

something really different, you know, and then we want

30:42

to do like a famous person and then we

30:44

want to do a bunch of listener voices, like

30:46

it's really, to me, that's what

30:48

makes it cool. It's like the variety. I'm

30:51

wondering if like one thing I struggled

30:54

with, especially with Wait

30:56

For It was making something that's

30:58

relatable that people really want

31:00

to comment on. And

31:02

so they chime in and sometimes I have people

31:04

just dump their entire life story and problems on

31:07

me in a way that

31:09

is like, you know, sometimes I could take it

31:11

sometimes I'm like, you know, I got time today

31:13

and I'll respond to via email or Instagram or

31:15

however they reach out. But I imagine doing a

31:17

show that's like as wide reaching as Death, Sex

31:19

and Money is that you are having some wild

31:22

requests and questions and trauma dumping

31:24

in your inbox. And I'm wondering

31:26

how do you care for yourself

31:29

and kind of manage those expectations of people looking

31:31

at you as a listening ear, but

31:33

also being the human and a sale. It's

31:37

not hard. I think

31:40

sometimes it's like, oh, I wish I

31:42

had time to write a thoughtful email

31:44

response to everybody that shares a story.

31:48

But I think maybe what doesn't feel

31:51

it doesn't feel like they're writing an

31:53

email to me saying, Anna, I need

31:55

your help. Can you help me with

31:57

this thing? Because so much

31:59

of this spirit of the show is like

32:02

this idea of collective

32:05

like comparing of notes. So

32:08

it's more like we're a place for you to

32:10

share. So I don't feel this need to like

32:13

solve anyone's problems. I

32:15

will say it is kind of strange like

32:19

my husband will point out like it's not very

32:21

common that somebody sees me on the street and like

32:24

knows what I do. But

32:27

on the very occasions that I'm in

32:30

like that somebody sees

32:32

me and like wants

32:34

to tell me that they listen to the show. My

32:37

husband has observed that I'm very like

32:40

I like immediately want to like turn it. I don't want to

32:42

talk about me with them or the show. I want to

32:44

like understand who they are. I like start kind of

32:46

doing a little mini interview and then I like did

32:49

I did that for me. I'm

32:51

like it is funny when we met as colleagues

32:53

and I'm like and I'm like of course I'm

32:55

like Anna, fail. Oh my god. Let me talk

32:58

to you and you immediately was like hey who

33:00

are you? What's going I've heard and I remember

33:02

you knew who I was which also freaked me

33:04

out. She's like oh I love your show you've

33:06

done great. I'm like what? How do you know

33:08

what? But you immediately it was like judo. Yeah

33:13

but I think that there's something that what he

33:15

has said what he's observed because this also would

33:17

happen when we first moved to California when I like

33:19

had a little baby and like really I didn't have

33:21

a lot of friends and I would complain about feeling

33:24

socially isolated. He's like why don't you try

33:26

to make friends with these people who tell you they like your

33:28

work and I was like nah

33:31

that's you.

33:34

I'm being like I so I

33:36

think there's that distinction between my

33:38

persona and my personness. My

33:41

actual personness. Sorry I did that to

33:43

you Ronald. No I was like did it feel

33:45

good or did it feel like? It felt great

33:47

because one because I like at the time I

33:49

like of course I deeply admired your work and

33:51

I feel like when you

33:53

did it I immediately recognized it because I've

33:55

done the same thing where people will come

33:57

up and be complimentary of wait for me.

34:00

And I immediately say hey, what's your name? And I like

34:02

I find out their name and I'm like, oh what's going

34:04

on? Like, you know, I immediately want to shift it a

34:07

little bit I don't think I've turned it into a mini

34:09

interview, but it wasn't it was not

34:11

bad feeling at all It was like oh and a

34:13

cell is taking an interest in me Well,

34:16

I am interested because aren't you like we

34:18

do this work where you don't get to

34:20

see it land in anyone's lives

34:23

Mm-hmm. And so I think

34:25

there is this sort of like well Who are you

34:27

and how did you like tell me about your life

34:29

and where does this podcast show up in your life?

34:32

Like that's interesting to me because I don't see

34:34

people consume the work ever It's like a

34:36

little mini exit survey if you will and

34:38

I feel like it definitely works

34:40

in that sense As

34:43

y'all are making the show now, you know You

34:45

have an opportunity and granted being

34:47

being canceled is not really something that people

34:49

when I say canceled I don't be canceled

34:51

in the Contitative sense that we use it

34:54

today. We need literally can't you mean really

34:56

can't be like I mean really can't But

34:59

I mean like in both cases when people get

35:01

canceled You don't really look at as an opportunity

35:03

to kind of like reinvent yourselves Do

35:06

you think that this was an opportunity for you

35:08

to reinvent the show in some ways? And if

35:10

so How do you plan

35:12

how did you do that? I? mean

35:15

It's funny There were days

35:18

where I thought like okay open

35:20

up that Google Doc Anna and

35:22

write your new strategic plan for

35:24

your journalistic mission like get

35:26

clear about like what's the thing you're saying the

35:28

listeners about what that sex and money is in

35:30

2024 that it hasn't been before and I sort

35:36

of went into like the thinking

35:38

about relaunching at slate with that with

35:40

that premise and then then

35:43

I sort of relaxed about it because the

35:46

thing that The thing that

35:48

our show has always been is you

35:50

know, we've been We've

35:52

not been a seasonal show. We've

35:54

been in continuous production since 2014 and We've

35:59

always been experimental and sort of evolving

36:01

as we go. And so

36:06

I like that about the show. So I

36:08

kind of think there's not like a hard

36:10

turn that's happening with this relaunch of like,

36:12

we're this now in a way that we

36:15

weren't before. But it's more like,

36:17

you know, we're our team is

36:19

made up of some different people. Now, the

36:22

world is different. America is different in

36:24

2024. I'm different at this stage of

36:26

my life. I'm in my mid 40s now. And I'm

36:28

a parent of two kids and married.

36:31

And when I started the show, I was like, not

36:33

a parent, not married, divorced,

36:37

trying to figure out my career.

36:39

And, and so the sort of

36:41

like, where

36:43

I feel like I feel like the

36:46

show was born out of this desperate search for like,

36:49

how to do grown up life questions,

36:51

like I felt like I needed guides. And

36:54

I needed assurances that I could have

36:56

my life take turns

36:58

that I didn't expect. And still, it was

37:01

going to be okay. And

37:03

I kind of in in midlife, I'm

37:06

like, I feel like

37:08

there are definitely more turns coming. And

37:13

but I don't feel I'm more

37:15

interested at this moment in like, what's

37:18

our relationship to one another in

37:20

this democracy and in community? And how

37:23

do we take care of like, friendships,

37:27

and even like, co

37:29

working with each other when so many of us work

37:31

apart from people we work with? Like, how

37:33

do we be in relationship when

37:35

relationship is so weird now? Like

37:38

partially in person, partially not? How

37:42

do we honor who we are as individuals

37:44

and also figure out how to work

37:46

together? Those are kind of

37:49

like my existential questions. So I think that's

37:51

like, maybe going to be kind of

37:53

like an thing that we dip

37:55

into. But the

37:58

biggest thing, I think that's changed. changed for

38:00

me in this transition from

38:03

getting canceled to getting reborn is

38:06

like, you know, it's

38:08

been really the creative juices

38:10

have been, they've been

38:12

invigorated for me because I just feel

38:15

it's like I'm so

38:17

clear on the absolute gift it

38:19

is to get to make this

38:21

your work. You know? Yeah.

38:24

Yeah. Like it excites me to connect with

38:26

someone on Zoom and be like, oh, I get to like talk with them

38:28

for an hour and a half. I have some questions. See

38:31

what kind of tape we make, you know, and after

38:34

making a show for 10 years, that's that

38:36

excitement wasn't always there. It was sort of,

38:38

you know, and the pandemic was hard. Everything

38:40

was hard. So

38:42

I did, I think I'm like refreshed,

38:45

which is good. Adafael,

38:49

thank you so much for being all working. Thanks

38:52

for having me. Up

38:59

next, Ronald and I will talk

39:01

about having conversations about what really

39:03

matters, how to figure out what

39:06

really matters and thinking about what

39:08

you'd change about your work if

39:10

a big project was canceled.

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40:12

vary. Ronald,

40:17

I absolutely loved that interview. It

40:19

was so grounded and I guess

40:22

for me at least, it

40:24

was so powerful. One of the threads

40:26

that ran through so many of Anna's

40:29

answers was the idea of figuring

40:31

out what you really care about, what

40:33

you're good at and what

40:35

you really want to do with that

40:37

skill. That came through in your question

40:40

about honing an interview style and

40:42

Anna the same basically that she realized

40:44

that she wanted to be asking the

40:46

same kinds of profound questions of

40:49

politicians that she was expected

40:51

to ask voters that she interviewed

40:53

on the trail. And that

40:55

comes through so strongly in that image

40:57

of Anna sitting on the floor in

40:59

the Anthony Weiner press conference asking

41:02

yourself, what is the real

41:04

question here? What is this really

41:07

about? And like

41:09

many people who are really good at something, she

41:11

made it seem easier than most of

41:13

us find it. Ronald, this

41:15

is something you're pretty good at yourself.

41:17

What have you learned about getting to

41:20

the core question? The what's

41:22

this really about? You

41:25

know, it's funny because I think about

41:27

it as the question behind the question

41:29

and I've frustrated friends and romantic partners

41:31

with this because sometimes they'll ask me

41:33

a question and I'll sense that

41:36

it is a pre-question before they get to

41:38

their actual question and I'll they'll ask this

41:40

pre-question and I'll just be like, what's the

41:42

actual question? So they'll be like, it'll be

41:45

something like, hey, so what were you, were

41:48

you thinking about eating something today? And I'm like, what

41:50

do you ask you what to ask me? They're like,

41:52

well, where do you eat? Like just say that to

41:54

me instead of having the pre-question. And I feel like

41:56

that's the mindset that I have interviews in where I

41:58

say like, let's just get to the of

42:00

this, like there's a lot of ways and I

42:02

think sometimes depending on what subjects you're talking to,

42:04

there's a lot of ways in which you kind

42:06

of need to take a different route into and

42:08

be a little bit more sensitive going into like

42:11

a question or trying to get an inquiry whatever you're

42:13

trying to get back from the subject, but in most

42:15

cases like just get to the bottom line and that's

42:17

kind of how I think about it. What is the

42:19

question behind the question? Oh, that

42:21

is deep. I think it's

42:23

also important to say here that

42:26

although we've been talking about these

42:28

kinds of real talk conversations in

42:30

a journalistic or a podcasting context,

42:32

this isn't just a professional project.

42:34

The underlying philosophy applies

42:37

to having all types of conversations in life,

42:39

whether that's in a work context, figuring out

42:41

what you need to do in your job,

42:43

what's up with your co-workers or what your

42:45

friends are really asking you when they're making

42:47

small talk. You know, getting

42:49

beyond the superficial when talking with loved

42:51

ones. So figuring out how

42:53

to talk about big life questions is

42:56

a skill that really does confer

42:58

superpowers, right? I think it's

43:00

just if you have a curiosity about life

43:03

that is beyond, you know, kind of

43:05

the facade that we put up when you go to

43:07

a party because like when really when you go to

43:10

a party we're talking about weather or the news, what

43:12

we're really doing is filling each other out to see

43:14

where we connect, to see what's going on. You know

43:16

what I mean? And I think in some cases when

43:18

you know someone already, if you start with a friend

43:21

group that you already know, if you start with a

43:23

bunch of work people, you kind of already know what

43:25

those places are. So you kind of go straight to

43:27

those places. Hey, y'all all watch the West Wing, right?

43:29

Let's talk about the West Wing. You know

43:32

what I mean? And I think like, especially

43:34

in the last like maybe eight to ten,

43:36

maybe sixteen years, it's been increasingly difficult to

43:38

find out what we connect with each other

43:41

on. So I feel like, and you, there's

43:43

so many landmines now where it's like, nope,

43:45

can't talk. It used to be like just

43:47

politics and religion. Now it's like politics, religion,

43:50

sexuality, food. Even the weather. Yeah, weather, dietary

43:52

restrictions, whatever, you know what I mean? So

43:54

it's like, try to figure out like how

43:56

we can get to those one, I would

43:59

say connections, not just big life questions, but how

44:01

are we getting to those connecting factors and how can

44:03

we get there more quickly? And I think that is

44:05

a superpower because you really have to, as

44:07

they say, read the room, you know? Yeah,

44:10

yeah, for real. I mean, we both work

44:12

in podcasting though, so let's also talk about

44:15

some of the inside baseball things that Anna

44:17

said. I was laughing

44:19

along to your conversation about how

44:21

you both immediately move into a STEM

44:24

questions mode with people who come up

44:26

to you to talk about your work

44:29

for the record. I do exactly the

44:31

same thing. Yeah. As she said

44:33

though, audio people don't get to see their

44:35

work land. It's not like a playwright or

44:37

a movie maker hearing an audience

44:39

respond. That's not unique,

44:41

of course, but it does feel

44:44

different to say writing because radio,

44:47

podcasting, it's such an intimate

44:49

medium. You're in my head, Ronald. Yeah. How

44:51

am I supposed to stay neutral about

44:53

that? So what have

44:55

you learned about how people respond to

44:57

your work from your

45:00

in-person interactions with listeners?

45:03

I find that, you know, they say

45:05

just like in a survey, the only

45:07

people that respond to surveys are people

45:10

who feel either really strongly positively or

45:12

really strongly negatively about something. And I've

45:15

been lucky enough to only experience people who

45:17

are responding very positively to

45:19

my work, which is good.

45:21

There have been a few times though when I've

45:23

been in the car with a friend or something and

45:25

I've just gotten in the car with them when they

45:28

were listening to an episode of a podcast. And I've

45:30

been like, nah, you got to change this because I

45:33

can't watch you listen to this

45:35

because as rewarding as it may

45:37

be to see someone enjoy it,

45:39

like to be in the car

45:41

with someone, like the anxiety that

45:43

happens as they are consuming the

45:45

work is pretty tough for me

45:47

to manage. But that being said, knowing that

45:49

somebody went off, listened to it, and then

45:51

when they respond with feedback or they just kind

45:54

of respond as if we're both listening at the

45:56

same time and just kind of like respond to

45:58

what I said in the show. They say it

46:00

to me that always, it feels good just

46:02

to know that people are listening. So

46:05

for me, I feel like just

46:07

having people respond at all is, is

46:09

just heartwarming to me, period. Like, even if they're listening

46:12

to like episodes of working where we're just doing interviews,

46:14

you know what I mean? It's still nice to hear

46:16

people be like, Oh yeah, that thing you did with

46:18

Linda Holmes, I love Linda Holmes. Yeah. That was pretty

46:20

good. So it always feels good to hear it. Yeah,

46:23

for real. You know, something you said about being

46:26

in a car and, you know, wanting to avoid

46:28

there is, so my partner was a therapist and

46:30

she says, you should never have tough conversations

46:32

over a meal or in a car.

46:36

And you know, like you, you, there are certain times where

46:38

you want to focus on getting your nutrition

46:41

focused on the, on the road. Yeah.

46:43

You can have those deep in depth,

46:45

uh, and a sale type conversation somewhere

46:47

else. Yeah. Agreed. I

46:50

was also really struck by the

46:52

conversation about the thinking Anna

46:55

did during that period

46:57

when death, sex and money was canceled by WNYC

47:00

and before it was picked up by slit in

47:03

many ways. The ideal time to

47:05

do that kind of exercise is

47:07

when it still is an exercise. You know,

47:09

when you still have a paycheck coming in,

47:11

but listening to that exchange, I could

47:14

really see the value of asking myself

47:17

if this project that I spend most

47:19

of my professional life thinking about and

47:21

working on were canceled,

47:24

what would I want to preserve of it? What

47:26

parts would I be happy to lose and what

47:28

would I try to do differently? It

47:30

was wonderful to hear that

47:33

Anna felt that the show that

47:35

she has been working on for a decade has

47:37

been evolving in such a way that it didn't

47:39

feel stale and in need of radical

47:42

reinvention, but thinking

47:45

that through doing that exercise seems really

47:47

useful. Is that something you've done at

47:49

any point in your career? Well,

47:52

I think, you know, whenever I

47:54

think about a transition, I always

47:57

think about the fact that most transitions I

47:59

have resist. I've always gone against the momentum

48:01

like something is pushing me in a direction

48:04

I'm like, I don't want to go in

48:06

that direction And even though

48:08

whatever direction it's pushing me towards is probably

48:10

somewhere I actually want it to go but

48:12

when it's time to actually move in that

48:14

direction, it's tricky But what you find is

48:16

that like when you're pushed out when the

48:19

show is canceled when you're fired when you're

48:21

laid off Whatever you really are forced into

48:23

these moments of deep reflection where you're really

48:25

thinking like hey, what is next? What do

48:27

I want to do? What does this sudden

48:29

amount of free time mean for me? What

48:31

are my necessities? What do I need to

48:33

account for immediately right now? What do I

48:35

have to be dealing with right in front

48:38

of my face? Like you're kind of at

48:40

the triage your life in that way Yeah,

48:42

I think that time of transitional reflection is

48:44

important But if we could get ahead of

48:46

it if we could have a plan if

48:48

we could like look at all of our

48:50

projects and say What is the

48:52

exit strategy for this project? Under

48:54

my own terms under my own control

48:57

We might not feel as panicked or

49:00

have so much anxiety in those moments

49:02

when we do push out and have

49:04

to have that Transitional reflection so I

49:06

think it's it's worth thinking about before

49:10

The transition happens, but

49:12

there is still value in the transitional

49:14

reflection itself. Yeah for real I've always

49:16

been envious of those people who talk

49:19

about being fun employed, which I guess

49:21

is when a job ends And you

49:24

know, you have another one lined up and you

49:26

have that period. Yeah, I never had that

49:28

it sounds really great But I have a feeling that

49:30

I'm much too anxious to enjoy that but yeah That's

49:33

like an adult summer break if you think about it

49:35

But you know like think about if you know another

49:37

job is it's lined up you're good you have like

49:39

two to three weeks off It's like

49:41

oh, let's do nothing. What's not Let's

49:44

not raise kids summer break. This

49:46

might never happen again Yeah,

49:49

and you know what you won't even have

49:51

to write what I did during my summer

49:53

vacation report Oh on your first day back,

49:55

you don't have to read one book June.

49:58

Sorry one

50:00

book. Yeah, you read one but only

50:02

one. Only one. Only one. Well,

50:07

that's all the time we have this

50:09

week. We hope you've enjoyed the show.

50:11

And if you have, please remember to

50:13

subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. That

50:16

way you will never miss an episode. Just

50:18

a reminder that by joining Slate Plus,

50:21

you get ad free podcasts, extra

50:23

segments on shows like Slowburn, and you

50:25

will never hit a paywall on the

50:27

Slate site. To learn

50:29

more, go to slate.com/working

50:31

plus. Thank you so

50:33

much to our dear friend, Anna

50:35

Sale and to producer Cameron Drews.

50:38

We'll be back next week with

50:40

June's conversation with writer Anne Lamott.

50:42

Until then, get back to work.

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