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and welcome to another episode

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of Working Over Time, the

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biweekly advice focus reels to

0:42

Working's Instagram. I'm your host,

0:45

June Thomas. And I am your other host,

0:47

Isaac Butler, and having never been on Instagram,

0:49

I have no idea what June is talking

0:51

about. June, let's set aside cryptic social media

0:53

references that everyone other than me gets. And

0:55

instead, why don't you tell me what we're

0:57

talking about today? Well, Isaac, of

1:00

late, I've been doing a

1:02

lot of thinking about accountability and the

1:04

role of that concept in the creative

1:06

process. I have to tell you, it

1:09

came into my head when I was watching YouTube, which

1:11

I do a lot of, and

1:13

a couple of the studytubers I

1:15

watch, that is people who devote

1:17

their YouTube channels to showing themselves

1:20

studying or working on their PhD

1:22

dissertations, logged onto

1:24

accountability sessions. And

1:26

for one of them, I know, I know it actually

1:29

kind of... I just wish our, you

1:31

know, this is an audio podcaster, so our

1:33

listeners cannot see the look that both our

1:35

producer, Kevin, and I are giving you right

1:37

now, which is one of just like, what

1:40

the fuck? You could have

1:42

easily been like, well, as you know, I'm a tentacle

1:45

creature from the planet Zebulon, and you would have gotten

1:47

like a very similar look from the two of

1:49

us. I mean, believe me, I'm shocked

1:51

myself. I have now watched way more

1:53

study tubing than I ever studied,

1:55

but it's oddly compelling. Wait, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

1:58

I know that we're trying to... to talk about

2:00

accountability in the creative process. But I have to

2:02

ask you, what do these,

2:04

is it literally just someone reading and

2:06

underlining with their phone camera pointed at

2:08

them? There's a lot of

2:10

the Pomodoro clock going round and round and

2:12

round. There's a lot of people just looking at

2:14

really nice computer setups as

2:17

they show you themselves working from

2:19

different angles. Honestly, though, I truly

2:21

do find it useful, because I never

2:23

did learn to study. If I had watched these

2:25

YouTubers before I went to university, I could

2:27

be a philosophy professor right now, instead of

2:30

whatever it is that we do for a

2:32

living, whatever this is. So on

2:35

one of the YouTube channels that

2:37

I watch, accountability means that a

2:39

woman in Canada and a person

2:41

in Germany log on to Zoom at the same

2:43

time every weekday so they can each work

2:45

on their dissertations. And for another, it

2:48

means belonging to an entire

2:50

organization that has daily sessions

2:52

where a whole group of members log

2:54

in to Zoom to work silently together.

2:57

And the idea, I gather, came from

2:59

PhD students shifting from the

3:01

part of their program where

3:03

they were taking classes and writing papers

3:05

and getting a lot of feedback to

3:07

the part where they're effectively on their

3:10

own working on a long lead project

3:12

with very few check-ins. It's called being

3:14

ABD. Yes, indeed. And some people stay

3:16

right there. But having a

3:18

regular date to work with another person seems

3:21

to have made it easier for them to sit down and work.

3:24

And I don't know about you, Isaac, but this

3:26

reminded me a lot of the process of

3:28

writing a book where there's a period where

3:30

you're working on the proposal when you're in

3:32

a pretty intense consultation with your agent,

3:34

maybe an editor or a series of

3:36

editors. And then when you sell your

3:39

book, you have a year or two or

3:41

whatever the amount of time is to write

3:43

it during which period you have very

3:45

few, perhaps even no check-ins

3:48

with anyone about how things are

3:50

going. And I wonder, did you

3:52

have struggles making that adjustment, Isaac? Did you

3:54

feel a need for an accountability buddy? I'm

3:56

glad you bring this up because when you

3:58

look at it from the outside. It's totally

4:00

bizarre that this is how we chose a

4:03

destruction. I mean other than defense contractors I

4:05

don't think there's another group where you just

4:07

like give someone a chunk of money, you

4:09

know briefcase full of doubloons or in The

4:11

writer's case nickels and then you're like, oh

4:13

and by the way in two years, would

4:15

you please turn in a great work of

4:17

art? It's totally totally Bizarre and

4:19

you're absolutely right when you're doing the proposal

4:21

you're in constant touch with your agent They're

4:24

faring messages back and forth to the editor

4:26

about the eventual project And then all of

4:28

a sudden you're just on your own and

4:30

it really is the first time that it

4:32

happens It really fucks with you. I really

4:34

every writer I know the first time they sell a book

4:36

the fact that all of a sudden they're just on their

4:38

own to do it I was lucky

4:40

my first book had a co-writer the

4:42

great Dan quaice and so we were

4:44

each other's, you know accountability people Yeah,

4:47

but I will say that in my case

4:49

It's been a little bit easier because I am

4:51

friends with both my agent and my editor,

4:53

you know Like we at friendship over the

4:55

past few years has developed. I see them occasionally

4:57

socially, you know I'm gonna get lunch with

4:59

my editor in a couple weeks and that

5:01

that provides one method of accountability Yeah, but here

5:04

are the far better ones for me one

5:07

at the end of the day at the dinner table Either

5:10

my wife or child is gonna turn to me and

5:12

say how was your day? And I don't like lying

5:14

to them and so I'm gonna have to give an

5:16

answer about what I've been doing with myself Two

5:19

I have a therapist, you know and I'm honest with

5:21

my therapist and so if I'm like actually I'm not

5:23

working on the book I've just I can blocked or

5:25

whatever, you know, they're gonna know and number three is

5:28

Giving my work to people for feedback because like you

5:30

have to give it to them to get the feedback

5:33

You know what I mean? So I don't have a

5:35

lot of formal structures for accountability as you know I

5:37

don't have a lot of formal structures for anything But

5:40

that's the kind of stuff in my life

5:42

that's worked Well on this latest one I

5:44

have been considering doing like accountability Sessions

5:47

like some people in my group chat my writer group chat

5:49

do do those and I've been thinking about asking like hey

5:51

Does anyone want to do one but I haven't done it

5:53

yet? Interesting and I think

5:55

you're absolutely right that figuring out what

5:57

to tell your partner your family basically

6:00

When you're at that stage, which I think

6:02

I have gotten over where a lot of

6:04

the problem is Discipline like that can be incredibly

6:06

motivational like as you say, you don't want to lie You

6:08

don't want to say well, I was gonna work. I had

6:10

great plans But well, you know what? I'm like, that's

6:13

not really where I am right now, but

6:15

that is incredibly Motivational can I

6:17

ask like I learned that discipline in graduate school,

6:19

right? Because we I had just deadlines constantly did

6:22

you learn that discipline by being a staff writer?

6:24

Is that where it came from or have you

6:26

always had that discipline? Cuz I used to be

6:28

a big like never turn my homework in Procrastin

6:31

a lot. I would do things like there was one time in

6:33

eighth grade I remember this because my parents bring it up all

6:35

the time where I wrote the paper and

6:38

then just it was done and Did

6:40

not turn it in for like oh my god. Wow

6:42

and the teacher Literally was like

6:44

I should fail you but this is a really good

6:47

paper So I got like a C on

6:49

it or something. I was exactly

6:51

like that I just was a

6:53

terrible procrastinator and for whatever reason

6:55

I actually think there were some

6:57

Issues going on but I was that

6:59

kind of thing where I just wouldn't do the

7:01

work my lying ability was incredible I

7:03

remember saying to a professor. I've got

7:05

it upstairs. Don't you just go and get it? He

7:08

said yes, what would I have done? But

7:12

no, I learned discipline at work as

7:14

you said, sometimes you just have no choice you have deadlines

7:16

Do you want to keep this job? Well, there you do

7:18

get disciplined I think though that

7:21

most creative projects in any genre

7:23

or any kind of work Have

7:25

that kind of period where you don't

7:27

have the check-ins that you do

7:29

from a more structured situation so

7:31

for example, if you are trying to

7:33

launch a new initiative at work or You're

7:36

figuring out a new process You

7:39

tend not to be having check-ins

7:41

or doing collaboration And so

7:44

I know when I was working on things like that I

7:47

would always find you know, but

7:49

effectively go back to that previous state, you

7:51

know Which is to say looking

7:53

for the dopamine hit of filing a piece

7:55

or responding to an email instead

7:58

of doing that work because there

8:00

was no check-in, so I didn't have

8:02

accountability. I think another example that we're

8:04

probably both very familiar with is when

8:07

you kind of have a

8:09

transition in work, when you, for example, if

8:11

you decide to leave a staff job where

8:13

you have clear expectations, co-workers you're constantly collaborating

8:16

with, goals you have to meet, a boss

8:18

you have to please to the

8:20

freelance life, where you are

8:22

responsible for pitching and working

8:24

unsupervised, and you do

8:27

have to make that work or you

8:29

won't eat, but it's

8:31

still hard and there isn't much accountability.

8:34

But that reminds me

8:36

that one very basic form of

8:38

accountability is meeting deadlines. If

8:40

you are a freelance writer or a

8:42

freelance anything, if you can't

8:45

meet your deadlines you absolutely cannot succeed.

8:47

That is the minimum requirement for being

8:49

an independent contributor to a larger project,

8:51

right? Yeah, absolutely. And I have to

8:53

say that in general that's actually something

8:55

I'm quite good at. I'm very attentive

8:57

to deadlines. I do not like missing

8:59

them. I do not like asking for

9:01

extensions. I have recently gotten some because

9:03

of uncontrollable life events that just made

9:05

it impossible to get some work done

9:07

that I was scheduled to get done

9:09

and family members, you know, stuff like that.

9:12

That's different. There are people who just

9:14

don't make deadlines. What's the writers that

9:16

I love deadlines, I love the sound

9:18

of them with the they go by.

9:20

That is just the opposite of

9:22

how I work. And I think some of that

9:24

I actually really learned in theater because

9:27

the deadlines in theater are not flexible. They

9:29

are actually incredibly hard and inflexible. If the set

9:31

drawings are not done by a certain date, the

9:33

show will not have a set, right? If

9:35

the costumer doesn't do their job, your actors

9:37

will be naked. If your lines aren't learned by

9:39

a certain rehearsal, it throws everything off.

9:43

And I think that's given me a healthy

9:45

anxiety. There is such a thing as healthy

9:47

anxiety. It's given me a healthy anxiety about

9:49

missing deadlines because always in the back of

9:51

my head is how many people I'm screwing

9:53

over if I

9:55

miss them. So if I'm going to ask for an

9:57

extension, I try to do it early, even though it's

9:59

changed. full to me. And

10:02

I just try to think about making those

10:04

deadlines because other people's livelihoods depend

10:06

on it. We had someone write

10:08

into us about this a few sessions ago,

10:10

works in the publishing industry that's like if

10:13

an author turns in their book six months

10:15

late, it just throws everything off and we

10:17

have to scramble to get everything done. And

10:19

that's part of why books sometimes are kind

10:21

of under serviced by the people who need

10:23

to shepherd them to markets because we literally

10:25

don't have time. Amen. Yeah, no,

10:27

I fully agree with everything you just said. It truly,

10:30

truly is important. And those people who talk about

10:32

the sound of deadlines just flashing by them, I

10:34

tend to think they maybe they're remembering something

10:37

because I just don't see that people like

10:39

that would keep getting work or keep getting

10:41

contracts. It just that's not how life works

10:43

these days. Certainly not these days. All

10:48

right, we're going to take a break.

10:50

But when we return, we'll talk about

10:52

sources of accountability. Apple

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USA, Salt Lake City Branch subject

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to credit approval. Terms

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apply. Hey

11:37

listeners, Isaac Butler here. Hope you are doing well.

11:39

I just wanted to take a moment to remind

11:41

you that if you are enjoying the show, why

11:44

don't you like click on that subscribe icon or

11:46

the plus button or whatever it is on whatever

11:48

your podcast app is. If you already do that

11:50

and you're wondering, hey, how can I help the

11:52

good folks at the good ship

11:55

working? The way that you could do

11:57

that is actually to rate us, leave a review. stars,

12:00

check mark a star, again it depends on

12:02

the app, but those sorts of things actually

12:04

really help us rise to

12:07

the top of whatever weird algorithmic formula

12:09

is serving people up their podcasts. So,

12:11

and the final thing you could possibly

12:13

do is go to slate.com/WorkingPlus and subscribe

12:15

to Slate Plus which gives you all

12:17

sorts of goodies and helps support what

12:19

we do right here on Working. Alright,

12:22

this has gone on long enough. Let's

12:24

get back to accountability. Thank you

12:26

again for listening. And

12:29

we're back. I have

12:31

to say, Isaac, I understand why

12:33

people find accountability appealing. Relying

12:36

on a group can be very effective.

12:38

That's why 12-step programs encourage

12:41

people to keep coming back. Turning

12:43

a personal effort into a group

12:45

project, making you want to avoid

12:48

disappointing others, having you think about

12:50

the others that your failures affects

12:52

is a really effective motivational

12:55

tool. And I

12:57

didn't think working alone and without many

12:59

check-ins was going to be a problem for me.

13:02

I am pretty disciplined now and I'm an only

13:04

child and a bit of a hermit. The idea

13:06

of making a date with someone to do some

13:08

work, this never felt particularly

13:10

attractive or necessary. But the

13:13

more I thought about it, the more I

13:15

realized there are many other kinds

13:18

of accountability that are very

13:20

important to my particular workflow. First,

13:23

it's about being honest with myself about

13:25

how and when I'm going to get

13:27

my work done and being considerate about

13:29

how my work schedule affects other people

13:32

in my life. For example, on

13:34

some work days, I might say, oh,

13:37

my brain's just not working today. I'm going to take

13:39

the rest of the day off and I'll catch up

13:41

on this work on the weekend. Now,

13:43

by most people's standards, I have

13:45

very few family responsibilities. But

13:48

when I decide to work on the weekend,

13:51

I'm effectively deciding the weekend plans

13:53

for my partner. Isaac, you

13:55

have a wife and a kid and parents who count

13:57

on you for some things. So I'm sure you

13:59

can do that. sure that you would never

14:01

make a schedule changing decision about your

14:03

work life on your own, but that's

14:06

a kind of accountability too. Coordinating

14:09

your work schedule with your family and anyone who

14:11

might be counting on you to show

14:13

up for something. Yeah, I mean, you

14:15

know, it's interesting because in some ways this has

14:17

helped a little bit by being parents because on

14:20

a lot of weekends we split the days down

14:22

the middle. One of us takes our kid for

14:24

the morning, the other for the afternoon, and then

14:26

vice versa. So I can just

14:28

decide, well, all my free time this weekend is

14:30

going to be spent working. You know, like having

14:32

those sort of blocks of whatever is

14:34

helpful. But I agree. You have to be

14:37

respectful of the other people in your life

14:39

and you have to be caretaking of your

14:41

relationships with them. I will say my impulse

14:43

is usually to go too far in the other

14:45

direction. So like I might see a

14:47

residency opportunity or whatever and then like never even mention

14:49

it to Ann because I just sort of like that

14:52

would be so disruptive if we did it. I don't

14:54

want to put her in the position of having to

14:56

tell me not, I'm just going to like let that

14:58

go, you know? And one thing she's

15:00

been really great about is actually encouraging me to go

15:02

out for things and to consider opportunities and be like,

15:04

yeah, this might change our routine, but we are good

15:06

enough at being a couple. We've been together for a

15:09

long time. We can handle this. Don't worry about it.

15:12

And we work really hard at figuring

15:14

out our schedule. So that's it's complicated.

15:16

It took us a lot of time and

15:18

work to get it right and make it

15:20

fair and all that stuff. So I am

15:22

reluctant to upset the apple cart or go

15:25

rogue or whatever. What happens instead if

15:27

I'm like, oh, well, I just can't work today or

15:29

whatever, is it just affects whatever free time I have.

15:32

Once you're in a long-term relationship and especially

15:34

once a kid is involved, your free time

15:36

is very precious. So compromising that

15:38

is its own form of accountability, I guess.

15:41

Yeah, for real. For real. Okay.

15:44

Let's talk about other places where we can find

15:46

accountability. So Isaac,

15:49

I am curious if you

15:51

have ever been part of a

15:53

writer's group, which is obviously part

15:55

of an accountability system. I'm

15:57

thinking of the ones where you're expected to produce a certain

15:59

amount of money. amount of new work for every

16:01

meeting. That's a pretty effective forcing

16:04

mechanism, I imagine. I know you

16:06

did an MFA, so I imagine that

16:08

must have been part of that experience. Yeah,

16:10

totally. I mean, of course, with Workshop and

16:12

everything like that. Outside of an MFA, I

16:14

have never been part of a writers group.

16:16

I know many people who are. I've just

16:18

never done it. I've thought about it, but

16:20

never pulled the trigger. What I do have

16:22

is I have my very good

16:25

friend, Catherine Nichols, who is a genius. And

16:27

when I wrote The Method, our friendship was

16:29

first starting to kind of deepen. We had

16:31

gone from being people who correspond to people

16:33

who are very interested in each other's lives.

16:35

She's one of my closest friends now. I

16:38

would send her every chapter of The Method as I

16:40

finished it. So I would finish the chapter. I would

16:42

do a quick, let's make sure I'm not embarrassing myself

16:45

here. And then I would email it off,

16:47

and she would give me feedback. Sometimes it

16:49

was really in depth. Sometimes it

16:51

was like, you need to restructure this this way

16:53

or cut this page or whatever. And sometimes she'd

16:55

literally say, here are the five things I noticed.

16:58

And it would just be that. There wasn't pressure on

17:00

her about the feedback. She gave it to me because

17:02

she gets excited about other people's work. And

17:04

that was really important. And then also, when

17:07

I got an extension on the book because of COVID

17:09

and all that stuff, I asked my

17:11

editor, hey, could I turn in the first third of

17:13

the book to you? Just first of all, to put

17:15

you at ease to know this is a real book

17:17

that is going to exist. And then I'm going to

17:19

make that deadline because this is my first solo author

17:21

book. And also because I actually want to know what

17:23

you think of it to help shape the rest of

17:25

it. And there was no submission structure

17:27

like that in my contract. I just felt like I

17:30

needed it. And I will probably do that again

17:32

with this book, honestly, Ben, if you're listening, watch

17:34

out for that. Those are the sorts of things that are

17:36

really useful to me, but it is also worth

17:39

saying, and I think this is a really important thing to

17:41

underline here. I organized those.

17:44

I did that. No one came to me and

17:46

said, hey, I'd love to really help you out

17:48

and keep you accountable by giving you notes on

17:50

your work as it's progressing. And no one is

17:52

going to do that for you, dear listener. If

17:54

you want to be held accountable, you have to

17:56

ask people to do it. And you

17:59

just have to... get over that, which could

18:01

be difficult. And I recommend you listen to our

18:03

working overtime episode about asking people for help. Absolutely.

18:05

But seriously, you do have to just do it.

18:07

You have to come up with an idea of

18:09

what you need, which is going to be different

18:11

for every single person, and then you actually have

18:13

to go out and build it. And

18:15

even though that takes a little time and you might

18:17

be worried that that time is a distraction from the

18:19

work and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it'll pay off. And

18:21

I highly recommend you do it. Well, one

18:24

of the things that strikes me with this, because I have

18:26

never done it either in a group or even

18:28

with one or two trusted individuals, although I really

18:30

want to in my next project, it

18:33

seems to me that it must be

18:35

very, very important to only make

18:37

this kind of commitment if you are

18:40

really, truly serious about it. I mean,

18:42

it clearly doesn't work if only one

18:44

person is actually sticking with the program,

18:46

right? Yeah. You don't want to create

18:49

a situation where the accountability structure itself

18:51

is a source of anxiety or resentment.

18:53

Right. If you do that, it's actually

18:55

going to make you creatively blocked because

18:58

then you're going to feel defiant towards

19:00

the thing that is giving you anxiety

19:02

and resentment. If you are in a writers

19:04

group, try to be in one

19:06

where you actually like the other people and

19:09

like their work and want to support

19:11

them in its development. Otherwise, it just

19:13

becomes an obligation. And if you're like

19:15

most artists, I know obligatory things

19:17

are not going to be your strong suit. And

19:19

I think that's true in any kind of creative

19:21

profession. Maybe you're thinking like, I have these ideas

19:23

for songs. I should create a band. So I

19:25

have an opportunity to play these songs. Like make

19:28

sure it's with people whose tastes you align with

19:30

or else it's just going to be a miserable

19:32

experience, you know? Yeah. And you

19:34

don't want to spend half the time that you

19:36

have to write the songs trying to make arrangements

19:38

to get together because you all can't make it.

19:43

We'll be back with some final thoughts about

19:46

accountability after this. Hey,

19:53

listeners. It's Isaac Butler again. I Just

19:55

wanted to say we really want to

19:57

hear from you. This Show is working

19:59

overtime. It's every other Thursday. We offer

20:01

advice on how to get creative work

20:03

done. We answer people's questions, We talk

20:05

about the feedback we get on the

20:07

show. So please talk to us. Tell

20:09

us about your challenges, tell us about

20:11

your triumphs, else about what you would

20:13

like us to talk about on the

20:15

show. Drop us a line of working

20:17

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20:25

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will feature it on the show itself.

20:29

Pirates. Now back to working overtime.

20:34

Or right words that this another

20:36

kind of aspect to all of

20:39

this that I wanted to mention,

20:41

which is for visual artist especially.

20:44

posting. Work on mine can

20:46

also be a good accountability

20:48

tool. I know people who

20:50

wanted to get better at

20:52

sketching are using specific kinds

20:54

as aren't materials and for

20:56

them posting their. Work on

20:58

has been a really

21:01

effective mechanisms they wanted

21:03

to. Get feedback. They wanted

21:05

to have to create a certain amount

21:07

of work and so they set themselves

21:09

ago and you can also see around.

21:11

Progress: You can get positive reinforcement

21:13

or maybe constructive criticisms from the

21:16

people who see your work. I

21:18

must admit, I can't quite

21:20

saint of a exact of

21:22

equivalent of that for writers.

21:25

am I crazy eyes it

21:27

to think the posting on

21:29

social media especially Twitter in

21:31

it's heyday was us saw

21:33

of an equivalent of that

21:36

kind. of public sharing for writers and

21:38

public accountability plus i don't know about

21:40

twitter exactly because of the length of

21:42

what you could yes to their some

21:44

people did you the creatively you know

21:47

tissue cold to be sort of three

21:49

sentence short stories for a long time

21:51

and stuff like that's twitter was a

21:53

very useful place for the posting of

21:55

ideas and for having conversations about them

21:57

sometimes those ideas would turn into things

22:00

book or into freelance pieces, I'd post an idea

22:02

and an editor would write me and be like,

22:04

I like that idea. Is there a piece in

22:06

there? I actually recently found a Twitter thread where

22:09

I'm musing about how to deal with the shifting

22:11

definitions of method acting over time. And I say

22:13

in this thread, having struggled with this for a

22:15

while, I think the only way to

22:18

deal with it is to make the story of

22:20

this shifting definition part of the book. And

22:23

that's exactly what I wound up doing. So clearly, that was

22:25

a helpful space to work things out. The

22:27

public facing writing that I did

22:29

that I feel like is the equivalent

22:31

of posting your art on Instagram or whatever

22:33

was my old now long dead blog. I

22:35

think for those of us in the blogging

22:38

generation, we were really using that

22:40

whether we realized it or not to learn how to

22:42

be writers and to work shit out. And again, coming

22:44

from a theater background, the idea of working shit out

22:46

without there being an audience for it, it's like, I'm

22:48

like, why would you do something if people don't see

22:50

it? If people aren't giving you attention, it

22:52

has no value. And today, I think

22:54

if you're a writer and you want to do something

22:56

similar, the answer is a newsletter, right? I mean, I

22:58

think that's sort of replaced what blogging was. I mean,

23:01

you could get a live journal, I guess, if you

23:03

want to have live journals, that sort of thing. But

23:06

if not, I think a newsletter is the way to go. Yeah,

23:08

yeah. One final note, I just want

23:10

to share an experience that I had

23:13

recently because I think it kind of

23:15

shows another aspect of this whole notion

23:17

of accountability and how it might apply to other

23:21

creative kind of experiences.

23:24

I was in Athens, Georgia giving a talk

23:26

and Wesley of Grizzly Rides, the limousine

23:28

driver who took me to and from

23:30

the Atlanta airport, was on a really

23:32

intense entrepreneurial journey. And we talked a

23:34

lot about a lot of things. It's

23:37

a two hour ride each way. And

23:40

we also talked about accountability. And

23:42

I was really interested to learn

23:44

that for him, accountability wasn't so

23:47

much about discipline. He had

23:49

that nailed down. It was about surrounding

23:51

himself with successful people.

23:54

As clear as he is on his strategy for

23:56

his business, he found it useful to consult with

23:59

His peers. The share his. Ideas

24:01

with them to hear

24:03

their ideas and for

24:05

him accountability beyond. His

24:07

responsibility to his partner was about

24:10

finding a support network. And

24:12

that. Feels. Relevant to those

24:14

who was working on creative projects

24:17

such only about discipline and signing

24:19

a structure to write, it also

24:21

is about finding your people That

24:23

can really be essential in terms

24:26

of finding your with. Very.

24:28

Low Rider group shot, but I'm a

24:30

part of that. I joined. At

24:33

some point during the pandemic and you know

24:35

it really has changed my life of it's

24:37

really bad. Very useful to have that community

24:40

of supports not only to you know one

24:42

of the channels on the on the on

24:44

the forum is about what work we're doing

24:46

and stuff like that that's useful but also

24:48

to be like I got this email from

24:51

an editor at So and So asking for

24:53

these edits like sled push back on these

24:55

added am I crazy they seem wrong and

24:57

and getting like frank feedback. It's really really

24:59

useful in some of the writers have zero

25:01

books out some of them have. One book

25:03

out. Some of them have been writing for

25:06

thirty years ago. It's It's a wide range

25:08

of experience and it's really nice of all

25:10

of those points of view as one tries

25:12

to navigate having this career. Wow.

25:14

Amazing. Well,

25:17

that's all the time we have for

25:19

this episode. But let me leave you

25:21

with one less piece of advice. I

25:23

think you. Should follow working wherever you

25:25

get your podcasts and if you have

25:27

any ideas for things we could do

25:29

better a question says like us to

25:31

address the really really want to hear

25:34

from you, send an email to working

25:36

at slate.com or give us a ring

25:38

at Three or Four Nine Three Three

25:40

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25:55

to working overtime producer kevin then

25:58

this and to our series producer

26:00

Cameron Drews. I am

26:02

very much accountable to them. We'll

26:05

be back on Sunday with a brand new episode of

26:07

Working and in two weeks we'll

26:09

have another Working Overtime. Until

26:11

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