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0:49

Out How To Be A Better Human a

0:51

podcast from Ten. I'm Chris Duffy. I'm

0:53

a comedian and each week on how to be

0:55

a better human, I sit down to have an

0:57

honest and hopefully funny and revealing conversation with an

1:00

expert who can help us to see the world

1:02

in a new way. This. Season. We're

1:04

diving into everything from how you can love

1:06

better to how to create habits that stick

1:08

to how to have hope in a world

1:11

and at a time where that feels really

1:13

challenging. You. Can find all those topics

1:15

and so many more. On. Episodes of

1:17

How To Be A Better Human wherever you

1:19

get your podcasts, Everyone

1:23

if that, I'm Grant. Welcome back to

1:25

rethinking my podcast on the science of

1:27

what makes us tick with the Ted

1:29

Audio Collective. I'm an organizational psychology and

1:32

I'm taking you inside the minds of

1:34

fascinating people to explore new thoughts and

1:36

new ways of thinking. I

1:41

guess today's Bob Sudden an organizational psychologist

1:43

at Stanford and one of the world's

1:46

most creative and most influential management thinkers.

1:48

Bob is an award winning scholar and

1:50

teacher and a best selling author. He

1:53

sometimes known as the asshole Guy because

1:55

two of his books or the no

1:57

asshole Rule and the Asshole Survival Guy.

2:00

Bob has a new book out, The Friction

2:03

Project with Huggy Ralph. It's

2:05

the ultimate guide to diagnosing and fixing

2:07

the problems in your workplace. Talking

2:10

with Bob always leaves me intellectually

2:13

stimulated and emotionally energized, and this

2:15

conversation was no exception. We

2:18

discussed when it might make sense to be

2:20

boring, why indifference is as

2:22

important as passion, what

2:24

it looks like to actually listen to

2:26

your scene, and how to tell if

2:28

you're an animal. Let

2:35

me start by asking you, Bob Sutton,

2:38

one of my heroes of organizational psychology,

2:41

why did you get interested in

2:44

fixing broken workplaces? I

2:47

think I got interested way,

2:50

way back when I was a PhD

2:52

student at the University of Michigan where

2:54

we both got our PhDs in the

2:56

organizational psychology program. In my mentor, the

2:59

late Bob Kahn, who lived to be

3:01

100, his perspective

3:03

always was that as organizational

3:05

theorists, it was our

3:07

responsibility not just to write obscure

3:09

articles that 25 people

3:11

read and then tell you're famous, but

3:14

to actually try to have an impact

3:16

on making workplaces more effective and making

3:18

people's lives better. And

3:21

I think in every conversation I ever had with

3:23

him, that always came through. And

3:25

just having a mentor who really thought

3:27

that academics only wrote from one another

3:29

were actually, he would use the word irresponsible.

3:32

So I think that's how he was raised

3:34

intellectually. And just as a more practical matter,

3:36

my late father was a defense contractor in

3:38

the US and spent his entire life complaining

3:41

about how broken the US government was. So

3:43

I got some hints for that too. I

3:46

love that orientation. It was one of the things that drew me

3:48

to Michigan as well. I remember reading

3:51

Donald Stokes on Pester's quadrant saying

3:54

the idea that there's a spectrum where on one end

3:56

we have basic science and on the other end we

3:58

have applied science is false. It's a two

4:00

by two and you can live

4:02

in the both fundamental contribution to knowledge

4:04

and meaningful useful

4:07

insight for humans Category

4:10

as pastor did with germ

4:12

theory and pasteurizing milk And

4:15

I think you've been you've been a wonderful role

4:17

model for doing that in our world Well,

4:19

I try I'm not a purist nor are you and

4:21

you're always gonna make somebody unhappy. So you just have

4:23

to live with that I

4:25

think you enjoy that more than I do what I like

4:27

is I like having 90% of the

4:30

people like me and in 10% of the people dislike

4:32

me and the quote from

4:34

my late father-in-law that I have a long

4:36

list of friends and a short list of

4:38

enemies and I'm equally proud of both lists

4:41

and I think that I Think

4:44

that's kind of my philosophy But I

4:46

actually don't like hurting people or upsetting

4:48

them for no apparent reason Wait, tell

4:50

me though about the the logic of

4:52

this 90-10 principle what I

4:55

think most people want to be liked by a hundred percent

4:57

of Their audience and that's a

4:59

huge problem for them. But why are you

5:01

okay with 10% not liking you? I

5:04

mean, that's like a rough estimate But

5:06

but my my perspective is that if

5:08

you stand for something then you can't

5:10

please everybody And

5:13

and I think that that is part of when there's certain

5:15

people who I will not name Who

5:17

have values that about where they exploit

5:19

people their takers of their

5:21

assholes? We can use whatever term we

5:24

want who I just really don't admire

5:26

or accept their values It

5:28

seems like a healthy way to live your life

5:30

though because then when you know when someone gets

5:32

upset with you You can just

5:34

say alright Well, that's that's in the 10% for this year

5:37

But when I heard people who I care

5:39

about or who I like I feel terrible

5:42

actually I'm quite guilt-prone. So there's also that

5:44

part of it same

5:48

We both suffer from it. All right, let's

5:50

talk about friction What

5:52

is friction? Well, I'm

5:54

not a physicist. I bet you they'd give

5:57

you a different definition But our perspective on

5:59

organizational friction is that

6:01

they're obstacles that frustrate

6:03

people, force them to slow down,

6:06

that essentially slow and

6:08

stop intended action. And

6:11

we initially got interested in this by only

6:13

focusing on bad friction or sludge, some people

6:15

call it, but along the way, we

6:17

realized that friction's actually a pretty good thing a lot

6:20

of times. This is one of

6:22

the most surprising things about your book is, hey,

6:24

wait a minute, sometimes we might want friction. So

6:28

there's this little girl, and she's

6:30

at home, and she says to the family's

6:32

Alexa, I want a dollhouse

6:34

and some sugar cookies. And

6:36

Alexa, which is an automatic device

6:39

ordering from Amazon, did the

6:41

order, and then three days later, her parents

6:43

get a $350 dollhouse and

6:46

25 pounds worth of sugar cookies. And

6:49

of course, I mean, they

6:51

hadn't done the settings, but that's a case

6:53

of not enough friction, of the

6:55

wrong things being too easy to do. In

6:58

organizational settings, sometimes you get in

7:00

a situation where sort of

7:02

like a tragedy of the common situation, everybody's kind of

7:04

so free to do what they want, they had to

7:06

collect the burdens. But the one

7:09

that I'm really interested in, and this comes

7:11

from our friend Paul D'Anardi, he

7:13

studies digital transformation, and

7:15

there was one organization he worked with where

7:18

everybody would order whatever software they

7:21

wanted. And for example, they had

7:23

five different versions of Slack, they had eight or

7:25

nine different sort of video systems. And

7:28

the CTO, he just had

7:30

a rule that if you ordered some

7:32

new software, or it just renewed on

7:34

your credit card, he'd have to review it

7:36

and approve it. And they went from

7:38

about 55 to about 20 apps in

7:41

about six months. And to

7:43

me, it's actually using good friction to stop

7:45

bad friction, because when everybody has too many

7:47

apps, they're slowed down, they're confused, they have

7:49

to learn all the time. It

7:51

seems like the very people who have

7:53

the easiest time avoiding friction are

7:56

the ones who need it most. Thank you.

7:58

Yes. You

8:00

highlight: this is a big problem with

8:02

people who have power, who have wealth,

8:04

in particular with leaders. This is one

8:06

of a lasting lessons from this read

8:08

for me was we should stop protecting

8:10

leaders from inconvenience Is it's like the

8:12

definition of privileges, the absence of inconvenience

8:15

that the little people have to suffer

8:17

from. It's really bad that the auto

8:19

companies in this again that the leaders

8:21

are oblivious to what it's like to

8:23

drive other cars and deal with by

8:25

a car experience when you're a leader,

8:27

not even that senior. They. Give

8:29

you a free car every six months

8:31

or so and in most large facilities

8:34

you don't have to put gas in

8:36

it or maintain that you'll have to

8:38

negotiate over the price of. I would

8:40

argue that their leaders should not tab

8:42

that sort of privilege When you protect

8:44

people from the kind of inconveniences it's

8:47

It's really a problem. So the challenge

8:49

shares. Leaders are busy and their time

8:51

is scarce. Yes, Are you

8:53

suggesting that they should occasionally have to

8:55

suffer through the regular customer service line

8:57

the standard car experience? Or do you

8:59

actually think they shouldn't get those privileges

9:02

in the first? Plus. I guess that

9:04

there are times where variables as of heart and

9:06

everything. but I guess that on average that it

9:08

be better for their organizations if they didn't get

9:10

that kind of privilege And it went. It went

9:12

to my heroes in the book. Is

9:15

a guy named Carl Lee. Bert cross

9:17

been around corporate America everywhere his last

9:19

two jobs he was Ceo of Ah

9:21

Donation the largest set of auto dealerships

9:24

in the world but when he was

9:26

have a supply chain at Home Depot.

9:29

They. Were having supply chain problem and car.

9:31

oh bless his heart. a couple times a

9:33

month he'd worked the night ship shift in

9:35

try to figure out why they were having

9:37

so much trouble getting inventory from the back

9:39

of a sore to the front of the

9:42

sorts was causing a lot of money in.

9:44

What he figured out was that because store

9:46

managers got dinged when they had Schrenker on

9:48

account for inventory, the root of the problem

9:50

was a suppliers were sending box. Is it

9:52

worth completly for? So figured out. That's what

9:55

what the problem was at an end. To

9:57

me. I, I'm not saying they should. have

9:59

to say completely but boy people who

10:01

are seen who are on the front lines

10:03

who understand how it works. I mean it

10:05

really matters. My late father, he was in

10:07

Patton's army at the Battle of the Bulge

10:10

and he said, just a foot soldier like me,

10:12

you'd see Patton all the time. He was with

10:14

us. He wasn't just hiding in the back. So

10:17

I do think that that stuff does matter.

10:19

Yes, I realize that some people, their safety

10:21

needs to be protected, that they need to

10:24

be able to concentrate without being interrupted. But

10:28

I think that leaders who isolate themselves have

10:30

problems. And as we both know,

10:32

there's other problems too. When you're in the leadership

10:34

position, you will automatically will assume that you know

10:36

what's going on even though you don't know what

10:38

the heck is going on. There's a lot of

10:40

evidence to support that. This

10:43

reminds me of what our dear colleague, Seagal

10:45

Barse, used to call leading by doing

10:47

instead of management by walking around. And she

10:50

would recommend that leaders spend 5% to 10%

10:52

of their time basically in undercover boss mode.

10:54

Whenever she talked about leading by doing, I

10:57

would picture undercover boss and think, okay, the

10:59

leader is going to go and do

11:01

the regular work of the people below

11:03

them so that they're in touch with

11:05

what's happening every day. And they

11:07

have a better understanding of what's going on in the

11:10

organization. It's also why

11:12

I think that leaders are more effective when

11:14

they've had different sorts of jobs. So Mary

11:16

Barre, actually really, I think she's one of

11:18

the great US CEOs. And if you look

11:20

at the difficulty she has, boy,

11:22

it's a lot harder to lead General Motors than

11:24

it is to lead Microsoft as much as I

11:27

love Satya Nadella. There's just

11:29

a lot more constraints with unions,

11:31

histories, manufacturing costs, laws. It's really

11:33

difficult. And one reason I

11:36

think she's been so effective is she's had so many

11:38

different jobs. She's been head of manufacturing. She's been head

11:40

of product development. She ran a plant. Her last

11:42

job was head of HR. So

11:44

she understands how the pieces fit together. So

11:47

that's another kind of understanding the system, not

11:49

just my one little part. I

11:52

think that makes so much sense. And it tracks with some

11:54

of the evidence I've read recently that companies

11:56

that are run by generalists actually innovate more than those

11:58

that are led by Satya Nadella. specialists where if you've

12:01

worked every function in the organization, you

12:04

may look like a jack-of-all-trades, but you're actually

12:06

a master of leadership because you're qualified to

12:08

understand what the people around you and below

12:10

you are doing. My perspective is everybody

12:12

doesn't need to be a journalist, which I think is

12:14

a misguided thing. You just need enough journalists to be

12:17

able to glue the whole thing together, because

12:19

I do love specialists who know really

12:21

a lot about something in massive detail.

12:24

I do think there's something to be said

12:26

for in important leadership roles, people having that

12:28

breadth to be able to connect

12:30

dots and also to stretch each division in new

12:32

directions. I think that that's right because they see

12:35

the connections. One of the things that makes me

12:37

think about a little bit is you're

12:39

critical of the idea of management by walking

12:42

around in this book. And

12:44

you bring some nuance to it that I think

12:46

is often missing from the conversation. I can't tell

12:48

you Bob how many times I've heard a leader

12:51

say, well, I just managed by walking around. You

12:54

write about the Tucker and Singer research, which I think

12:56

complicates it in interesting ways, which I want to talk

12:58

about. But two, also, I just

13:00

think that's a smokescreen for micromanaging. That so

13:02

many leaders who claim to manage by walking

13:05

around just don't trust their people and they're

13:07

trying to spy on them and that's their

13:09

excuse. I mean, there's multiple

13:11

problems. One is this a sign they're spying

13:13

on people. Another one, I'm old enough

13:15

to have lived through when In Search

13:18

of Excellence came out and Tom Peters,

13:20

and he still says everybody should always

13:22

do management by walking around. Well,

13:24

one of the problem is, well, there's some leaders who

13:26

are kind of socially inept. And

13:28

I remember one guy saying to me, my

13:30

manager, I just wish she would stay in

13:33

her office. She just wastes our time and

13:35

she annoys us. But the Tucker and Singer

13:37

research, which you're talking about, it's sort of

13:39

like a quasi experiment. I won't go into

13:41

the details. But essentially what they found

13:43

was on the whole management by

13:45

walking around was less effective. And

13:48

there was an important distinction that

13:50

for large, complex, difficult problems is

13:53

when it was especially bad. Because

13:55

a leader couldn't figure out how to fix that

13:57

just By briefly talking to someone.

14:00

Then they tended to be ongoing sorts of

14:02

problems that people knew had existed for years.

14:04

There's. A case to be made that when

14:07

as a leader, if you're if you're one

14:09

around and people see that you're there, it

14:11

can be assigned you care right? He can

14:13

be a way to get off your pedestal

14:15

and build connections with people. but on the

14:17

other hand it does the people feeling like

14:20

they're being watched and I think the evidence

14:22

or describing suggested sometimes leaders to get in

14:24

the way in distract people may even give

14:26

them bad ideas because they haven't diagnose the

14:28

problem and that means they're not equipped to

14:30

solve it. At one point I deliver to

14:33

work with Disney Lance the it's one. Thing

14:35

for sort of like leaders to walk

14:37

around and occasionally see what's going on.

14:39

It's another thing for when a one

14:41

leader I knew who. several times your

14:44

see get dressed in like the full

14:46

costume. Ah that's a sign

14:48

that by your you really a touch of

14:50

the people and in them. And then there

14:52

was another guy who talk about in the

14:55

books who I was running are the largest

14:57

hotel that Disney has in Florida and he

14:59

worked alongside the house cleaners for two weeks

15:01

to try to figure out best practices. That's

15:03

not just white observation that's really sort of

15:05

digging in so there's a difference between that

15:07

and just sort of being if you will

15:10

sort of an annoying tourist. As

15:12

yeah yeah as I think one of

15:14

the that the leaders you're describing are

15:17

doing differently is there going to learn

15:19

not just to run the south. To.

15:22

Gain that kind of knowledge to

15:24

I think what I was your

15:26

most immediately practical suggestions. His bed

15:28

leaders should be auditing their ratio

15:30

of questions to statements. I

15:32

think this is brilliance. It's as it's

15:35

so simple and yet it's not something

15:37

I've ever seen anybody think to do.

15:39

How did you come up with this

15:41

idea? There's a woman catherine

15:43

Vouchers or De Souza Pc and

15:45

Communications add that we teach together

15:47

to design schools and we had

15:50

a little class that was six.

15:52

I'm Ceos of start ups. In his

15:54

one venture capitalists put it. They.

15:57

Were all babies with loaded guns? They

15:59

were. First time Ceos for

16:01

all man. All under

16:04

thirty. Three have a lot

16:06

of answer capital money and they never

16:08

been in the leadership position of any

16:10

kind either of may be and in

16:12

high school or something. And so our

16:14

students started auditing their meetings and in

16:16

particular I remember one Ceo Young's the

16:19

Lcs. he's have about assisting minutes the

16:21

end up meeting every day and initially

16:23

to do eighty percent of the talking.

16:25

sometimes ninety percent of talking says and

16:27

then he'd only make statements maybe at

16:29

in what our students did to it's

16:31

the young Ceos credits was they showed

16:33

him he had a disproportionate. Number of

16:35

of but of statement sources questions and

16:37

as time went on people started fading

16:40

when the indecency, the energy that they'd

16:42

look at their phones because it's like

16:44

silicon valley. what's it? Look at their

16:46

phones you've lost them of or they

16:48

start rubbing each other or they'd space

16:50

outs added to the skies credit he

16:52

got much much better. I do

16:54

like the at the idea lot of

16:56

it. It comes up in Peter Commons

16:58

research on having more complex and nuanced

17:00

conversations about charges issues as basically a

17:02

measure of inquiry relative to advocacy and

17:04

a sign that a conversation is gonna

17:07

break some new ground as opposed to

17:09

dividing people is keep dialing up your

17:11

inquiry as opposed to just. Advocating.

17:13

Over and over again. So.

17:15

What do you think is the ideal

17:18

ratio of questions to sentence? My perspective

17:20

was once it gets below fifty fifty

17:22

I start wearing to some leaders who

17:25

ask questions. To give themselves

17:27

a break not to actually listen. So

17:29

you actually have to listen to the

17:31

answer. And I remember in this meeting

17:33

just. Terrible meetings with the sky

17:35

would talk on and on is the most

17:38

senior person the room and he finally was

17:40

quiet A in I looked at him in

17:42

he said to me it looks like I'm

17:44

listening but I'm just reloading for it on

17:47

Brutal So if you're going to ask questions

17:49

or be quiet you actually need to listen

17:51

to us. At. I. don't know

17:53

if i respect him more or less

17:56

for admitting that had a few others

17:58

yeah well you don't decide He

18:00

knew he was. Wow. Okay,

18:05

so that, you actually have a term for

18:07

that in the book. You call

18:09

it sham participation. There's this

18:11

thing that what leaders do after they make

18:13

a decision, they sometimes will feel

18:15

as if they've got to pretend

18:17

to listen to everybody else. So

18:20

the example we use in the book is my

18:22

colleague Steve Barley. He was

18:24

on a committee to come

18:28

up with the interior design of the

18:30

Jensen Wong building, NVIDIA fame.

18:32

That's the building that I sit in

18:34

at Stanford. And

18:37

Steve Barley came up with all this research,

18:39

in particular the research on the negative effects

18:41

of open offices, that we

18:43

had PhD students who did things like

18:45

writing behavioral science like I do, or

18:47

did really, really hard math problems and

18:50

operations research. And they needed quiet.

18:52

This was the number one thing that came out.

18:55

And then the architects had already made

18:57

the decision that we were going to be

18:59

just like Google and Facebook and have open

19:01

offices and be like a modern engineering building.

19:04

And of course what ended up happening is

19:06

none of the PhD students came into the

19:08

offices because it was impossible for them to

19:10

concentrate on their research. And the

19:13

staff members disliked it as well, because as

19:15

you and I both know, Adam, the evidence

19:18

is yes, open offices are

19:20

usually cheaper and probably more

19:22

green, but the evidence

19:24

that they do anything good for

19:26

productivity, collaboration, well physical health, it's

19:28

like an open office disease spreads

19:30

more easily, contagious diseases. Steve

19:33

brought all that evidence and we were basically

19:35

told that the decision had already been made.

19:37

And Steve too, his credit got upset and quit

19:40

the committee. But that's the classic sort of thing

19:42

that you call these meetings and stuff. And

19:45

again, it's pretending to listen and you're just

19:47

wasting people's time. And people figure it out

19:49

pretty quickly after you do that to them.

19:51

It's not something that leaders get away with

19:53

very much, even though they think they do.

19:55

So that's sham participation, Another source

19:57

of destructive organizational friction. That

20:00

we impose on employees and then, well, even

20:02

good leaders who had unwittingly. But that leaders

20:04

do it more. As such,

20:06

a shame to see the same

20:09

category. As

20:11

I couldn't resist. The.

20:16

Me suggest then what? We go to a

20:18

lightning rod. now. Before we brought on, there

20:20

are some other topics I've added. grant Lightning

20:22

Round. What can be more fun than that?

20:24

It is in this case, potentially embarrassing to

20:26

since you know we pretty well. So let's

20:28

go. I am really good material. The driver.

20:32

What is something you free thought lately?

20:36

One. Of the things that that I

20:38

really have been thinking a lot about

20:40

lately and in Ed Catmull got me

20:42

thinking about this about a year ago

20:44

is that leaders who are really quick

20:46

to fire people to give the mornings

20:49

tend to be the best boss is

20:51

because you're giving people negative feedback. that

20:53

removing the bad from the system and

20:55

add made this really interesting arguments. Ed

20:57

Catmull for your listeners who don't know,

20:59

was present a Pixar for twenty six

21:02

years. He built the modern Pixar. He

21:04

met with Steve Jobs in once. A

21:06

week for twenty five years and saw in the So

21:08

forth and I members saying this to add. In.

21:10

A looking at me and saying not

21:12

as I said i think about expensive

21:15

I'm firing a director of a film.

21:17

He said I tend to see the

21:19

pattern before everybody else but I wait

21:21

for everybody to come to me to

21:23

tell me how bad the director isn't

21:25

It's to get rid of them and

21:27

the reason I do that is otherwise.

21:30

It creates a climate of fear because

21:32

if I fire the director before everybody

21:34

else has come to me. they think

21:36

that their jobs are threatened but if

21:38

I wait till they've all come to.

21:40

me then they think it's the idea

21:42

is our climate of fear in that

21:44

nosy think about how much money this

21:47

costs in the in this is exactly

21:49

did with rather to he which had

21:51

a different director other than brad bird

21:53

for a long time i bet you

21:55

that cost maybe five ten billion dollars

21:57

that decision and i tennessee this out

21:59

worth it?" And he said, yes, because

22:01

having an organization that's not a climate

22:03

of fear is something you can't

22:06

put a price on. That idea of slowing

22:08

down, that's one of the things I've really

22:10

been thinking about, that sometimes acting rashly does

22:12

create a climate of fear. I

22:14

do think if the board members of open AI

22:17

had slowed down a little bit and

22:19

gotten everybody on board, that's an example of

22:21

maybe they wouldn't have wanted to fire Sam

22:23

Altman so quickly, if at all. Seriously,

22:26

I love the rethinking on

22:28

this one, and I'm strongly

22:31

in favor of leaders being slower

22:33

to fire. That

22:35

being said, I was with a

22:37

tech company a few years ago, and people

22:39

were complaining that by the time

22:41

the CEO finally fired the most toxic,

22:44

selfish member of the organization, they'd already

22:46

seen a bunch of their biggest stars

22:48

quit because nobody could tolerate it anymore.

22:50

So I guess you can't wait too

22:52

long? But you asked

22:54

me what I was rethinking, and I just always think

22:56

that faster is better. And what a good

22:59

friend of mine, a friend of yours, Patty

23:01

McCord, who was head of HR, basically, of

23:03

Netflix for the first 14 years. I

23:06

mean, they don't have performance improvement plans

23:08

at Netflix. They just fire you. And

23:11

that's sort of the understanding, and that

23:13

seemed to work there. It's just one

23:15

of those things that I've rethought, that

23:17

this idea about sometimes got to

23:19

slow down, both to analyze things in

23:21

more detail. So that's sort of adding

23:24

constructive friction, and also

23:26

to avoid creating a climate of fear. Love

23:29

it. We both had

23:31

a chance to study with one of the

23:33

giants of organizational psychology, Carl Weich. What's your

23:36

favorite Weichian lesson? First of all,

23:38

and I don't even know if he said this, and I asked

23:40

him if he said it, and he thought he did, but he

23:42

said he wasn't sure. But are you as

23:44

if you're right? Listen as if you're wrong? I think

23:47

that's why he made you ensure of it.

23:49

And one thing, so I'm going to cheat

23:51

since we're doing the lightning round. The other

23:53

thing that he said that I love, which

23:55

is just one paragraph buried in this really

23:57

obscure piece, he expected that specialists

24:00

were grumpy because

24:03

people are specialists have really narrow focus and

24:05

view everything as an interruption and Optimists

24:08

and generalists are optimists and are happy

24:10

because every new thing they meet they're

24:12

excited to learn about And

24:14

I just love this. I don't even know it's

24:16

just like a random paragraph and something that that

24:18

he wrote You immediately captured

24:21

my favorite The argue

24:23

like you're right listen like you're wrong mantra.

24:25

I've also wondered was it really his but

24:27

I consider it wikey in You

24:30

are known to be a fan of just walking

24:32

out if a meeting or an event is a

24:34

waste of your time Yes, what are the top

24:36

few things you've walked out on lately just

24:39

to preface it? Dear listeners,

24:41

there are some things if you walk out

24:43

of you're being incompetent or you're

24:45

gonna get fired And by the way,

24:47

if you're a flight attendant, you probably can't walk

24:50

out of the airplane, too So it may be

24:52

impossible, but I've walked out of

24:54

many faculty meetings. I it's better just not

24:56

even to say why it's better Just just

24:58

to leave the other thing that I've

25:01

walked out of which by the way My

25:03

wife and I do not always agree on this is

25:05

I have walked out of movies at movie theaters

25:07

when I thought they were bad Movies I

25:10

try not to walk out of family gatherings

25:12

when they're not going well I don't think

25:14

I've ever done that so there are times

25:16

when you have to be careful, but faculty

25:18

meetings movies Things

25:21

where I feel as if I have discretion You

25:24

are on the record saying quote indifference

25:26

is as important as passion. What does

25:28

that mean? Oh Wow,

25:31

so this is the notion that if

25:33

you really really care about Absolutely

25:36

everything this is an original idea by

25:39

the way You are gonna completely

25:41

wear yourself out You have to sort of

25:43

pick the places to focus your energy and

25:45

focus your passion and this might be also

25:47

a self-warning because we're talking about generalists versus

25:50

specialists I tend to get interested in everything

25:52

and That's one reason

25:54

why it probably takes me so long to finish

25:56

my books. It's like I'll go down so many

25:58

different rabbit holes It's ridiculous But,

26:00

yes, learning what not to give a shit

26:02

about in life and what you

26:05

can't have any control over. And

26:07

by the way, situations where you

26:09

make things worse just by your

26:11

intervention, because where I have actually

26:14

decided to interject myself in the

26:17

discussion, and what ends up happening

26:20

is that I annoy a bunch of people

26:22

and nothing changes, and maybe I never should

26:25

have gotten involved. For example, the debate about

26:27

open offices versus closed offices and the building

26:29

I'm in, I just did

26:31

more and more and more research. It

26:34

didn't change anything. I knew it wasn't going to

26:36

change anything. I was just tilting in a windmill,

26:38

and it was just wearing me out and annoying

26:40

my superiors who had already made the decision. Okay,

26:44

one of my favorite ideas you've

26:46

ever captured is the suggestion that

26:48

occasionally being boring is a useful

26:50

skill for leaders. I'm

26:53

really excited about this idea of boredom. I

26:55

was working on a book called Weird Ideas

26:57

That Work, and this guy

26:59

named Don Peterson, who had just finished

27:01

his stint as CEO of Ford Motor

27:03

Company, came into my

27:05

office, and he told me this story

27:07

about when he was CEO, and he

27:09

basically didn't want anybody to notice Ford,

27:11

and he got invited to give a

27:13

speech at the National Press Club. And

27:17

at first he said no, but his publicist said

27:19

yes, and our job is to make it so

27:21

that you're such a boring person that nobody wants

27:23

to write anything about Ford. So he

27:25

said, I picked a boring

27:27

topic, which was safety, and he said,

27:30

I put all these really hard-to-read charts,

27:33

and I practiced delivering it in

27:36

the most boring possible way. And

27:38

he said it did help. We did not have

27:41

much press attention, and that actually was one of

27:43

the times when the Ford Motor Company got saved.

27:46

And to me, this notion that sometimes you

27:48

don't want to be noticed Is

27:51

really important. And I even learned this in

27:53

high school, because Adam, I think I had

27:55

half the high school grade point average that

27:57

you did, and one reason was that when

27:59

I missed. The. I

28:01

would bet big a smirk I get loud

28:03

and I had a bunch of friends who

28:05

would get away with all sorts of stuff

28:08

including just walking out a class by the

28:10

way and not being noticed, but the teachers

28:12

never paid any attention to them because they

28:15

were less interesting than I was in, probably

28:17

less a marxist. The power of not being

28:19

noticed can be can be really really useful

28:21

in the stuff on the Sociology of work

28:24

that if you want to screw around his

28:26

want to be incompetence, that being sort of

28:28

invisible to your supervisor does work. As well.

28:30

So if you're incompetent, at least be kind of

28:32

boring and I noticeable. A successful

28:35

efforts you you'd ever anticipated. My

28:37

next question which is your as

28:39

tenured professor at Stanford you have

28:42

a Phd year? a bestselling author.

28:44

You've been highly successful in life.

28:47

What was your Gps High School.

28:50

One. Point nine after my junior year and

28:52

then I figured out a that's when you

28:54

the college applications go in and I had

28:56

almost no sees was almost all bees undies

28:58

and some A's and as and then I

29:00

figured out did pottery was something to do

29:02

and you are stoned So I took Potter

29:04

and I got my grade point average up

29:07

to two point one about by me my

29:09

teachers at if I had assumed like me

29:11

and class I would be very unhappy. Your.

29:13

Known as sad the asshole experts in

29:16

a lot of players. Would. You

29:18

call your younger self an asshole? Oh wow,

29:20

so there's there's certified verse in temporary ass

29:22

holes. I would definitely say that my certified

29:25

asshole score was higher when I was younger,

29:27

but I think that I had something was

29:29

younger which was that death. I don't think

29:32

I was ever nasty. The people who were

29:34

similar in less if there is and be

29:36

less status and me. I. I've

29:38

always been somebody who has kicked up. And

29:41

which does get you in trouble or express

29:43

the among authority figures that I don't respect.

29:45

So I think that at least I didn't

29:48

kick down which is one characteristic of people

29:50

who tends to be ass holes. But yeah

29:52

my teachers would definitely say Bob Sutton com

29:54

I that asshole I think device that been

29:56

business as long as I might have been

29:59

my full name. Well,

30:01

and now I know why one of

30:03

your other memorable quotes has so much

30:05

relevance. You said we should be a

30:07

little bit slower to label other people

30:09

assholes and maybe a bit quicker to

30:12

consider ourselves in that category. Well, Adam,

30:14

you being a famous psychologist, you do

30:16

know that given the biases that we

30:18

tend to have self-serving biases, and I

30:20

think that that's part of it. And

30:23

there's some interesting national surveys done by

30:25

the Workplace Bullying Institute. In the last,

30:27

the percentage of people who have

30:29

ever worked with or observed basically

30:32

ongoing bullying in the workplace, and it's well over 50%

30:34

of the workforce, and they'll ask

30:36

people, have you ever been that person? It's something

30:38

like one half of one percent. And

30:42

we know that it's larger than that.

30:45

But yes, I think that especially being quick to

30:47

label yourself as a temporary asshole, I shouldn't have

30:49

done that. I should

30:51

not have behaved like that in that situation.

30:54

I think that's one of the defenses against

30:56

becoming a certified asshole, because you can nip

30:58

your own behavior in the bud. Related

31:02

to that while we're on profanity, you said

31:04

something to me recently that I thought was

31:06

profound and that I ended up quoting to

31:09

our kids, among others. You

31:12

said that when you throw shit, some always lands

31:14

on you. Yeah, this came from my wife when

31:16

she was a young lawyer, when she was a

31:18

young litigator. And one of her

31:20

mentors said that to her about litigation, because very

31:22

often when people get attacked in the press, when

31:24

they get attacked privately, they want to lash out

31:27

against that person and just sort of squish them

31:29

like a bug. And this

31:31

idea that when you insult people or say

31:33

nasty things about people, you have

31:35

to expect some to come back to you. Now

31:37

this doesn't mean that it isn't always called for.

31:39

There are some people who do deserve to be

31:41

called out for their terrible behavior. I'm not

31:44

saying that shouldn't happen. It does take some

31:46

courage. But we're definitely

31:48

seeing this in society at the moment

31:50

that if your knee-jerk reaction is

31:52

to just say something nasty about someone, I

31:55

think that that's something that a little bit

31:57

of Mindfulness is necessary.

32:00

Eerie to avoid hurting other people in, by the

32:02

way, to avoid having that shit some sort of

32:04

back at you as well. This.

32:06

Is an example of something that. You've.

32:09

Described so eloquently that I talk about

32:11

in class every year which is the

32:13

knowing doing gap. So much of what

32:15

we do as psychologists is labeling and

32:17

describing and trying to make sense of

32:19

things that people already know but don't

32:21

put into practice on a regular basis.

32:23

So we got interested in this idea

32:25

of of why would smart people. Know.

32:28

Something say other people should do it

32:30

and then not do it themselves are

32:33

not implemented in their organizations. In a

32:35

course there's all sorts of explanations if

32:37

I would pick my favorite one just

32:39

cuz it's it stood the test of

32:41

time is in life. There are often

32:44

many rewards for saying things but not

32:46

doing them. Unfortunately when we look at

32:48

the look at what is it the

32:50

history of management movements are. what happens

32:53

is that the people really good at

32:55

talking. They get a bunch of credit

32:57

for a while. Until the movement sort of

32:59

fades away and that they've had no impact. So

33:01

there's a problem with that, You.

33:04

Spend a lot of time in

33:06

Silicon Valley companies ends You've studied

33:08

many of them. You've interacted with

33:10

a lot of the leaders of

33:12

Earth Many decades. I've been frustrated

33:14

watching people consistently learn the wrong

33:16

lessons from influential tech leaders. We've

33:18

talked about the Steve Jobs problem

33:20

of wow, he's really successful and

33:22

therefore I think I have to

33:24

be an asshole and I'm like.

33:27

Then. You're probably nestle Talk to me

33:29

about how we learn the right lessons

33:31

from successful leaders. The way you you

33:33

do it is. To me there's there's

33:35

two ways. What is that? You go

33:37

through a period of doubt. Pain. That

33:40

actually teach you the right lesson. That's that's

33:42

the hard way. I think the board of

33:44

Open A I learned that about how to

33:46

fire a Ceo. That's not how you fire

33:48

a C, You have to bring everybody on

33:51

board. and and you also have to sort

33:53

of, you know, build an ongoing sort of

33:55

case and public's A One is a ghost

33:57

of the painful lesson. the other one is

33:59

sad. Though in your life. Who.

34:02

You can trust to tell you the

34:04

truth even if you don't like it.

34:08

When. When you study of when you

34:10

interact with them. How. Do

34:12

you isolate of what things they're

34:14

doing? In spite of their

34:16

success and what actions and practices are

34:19

driving their success learned many people we

34:21

know who are rich and famous despite

34:23

rather than because of what they in

34:25

their companies do with. but the main

34:27

thing I do as I try to

34:30

find as much evidence about how people

34:32

around them react. As opposed to

34:34

them and you could do that just a

34:36

informally by watching and how they they treat

34:38

their staff and you've written about this too

34:41

is is that although gossip as a dirty

34:43

word I really believe in in having good

34:45

gossip networks that in if you can talk

34:47

to the people confidential you work from them

34:49

out and even better talk to to people

34:51

who used to work with them or for

34:54

them. At what they actually

34:56

think of them, those are very powerful

34:58

indicators. Those of the students people are

35:00

switching jobs. of course we know one

35:02

of the best things to do is

35:04

is to find somebody who used to

35:06

work for your new boss man who

35:08

doesn't work for them anymore Or find

35:10

as many people as possible to find

35:12

out that the truth of working for

35:14

them says it's the people around them.

35:17

It's not the person, it's itself. There.

35:19

Is a little bit of a survivorship bias

35:22

there in that the people who are disgruntled

35:24

a perfect way to leave? Yeah, I agree

35:26

that the people are disgruntled are more likely

35:28

to leave at any better notion. You can't

35:30

please anybody in any role that you're in

35:32

in life, But damn. The

35:35

other by asserting to get his people within the

35:37

company they're mostly can only tell you good stuff

35:39

so so you can give a sort of a

35:42

balanced perspective if you have. Got.

35:44

It okay, What's the question you have for me? How

35:47

do you like sustain your your mental and

35:49

physical health given all the demands on your

35:52

time? The Jewish mother and me worries about

35:54

you. so how do you take care of

35:56

yourself? Effective. I.

35:58

Don't. that that

36:00

complicated honestly. I feel like I'm

36:02

really clear on my priorities and

36:04

those priorities are family,

36:06

health, writing, students. Okay good for

36:09

you. Make time for the things that matter

36:11

to me. I don't know. I don't have

36:13

a good answer to that question. Well you just

36:15

gave a pretty good answer which is that your

36:17

priorities are clear which does help in life and

36:19

I just you know being older than

36:21

you. Whenever I forget my priorities is when I'm screwed

36:23

up. That's probably advice you

36:25

would give other people too that you're giving to yourself.

36:29

I think always. Yes. Okay

36:32

lastly we started talking about friction. We're

36:34

gonna end on friction. What

36:37

is your favorite advice for getting

36:40

rid of the bad friction around you? Just

36:42

remember as human beings and there's a team

36:44

from University of Virginia did a whole bunch

36:47

of studies of this. We as human beings

36:50

our default way of solving problems is

36:52

just to add more complexity, to add

36:54

more people, to add more stuff. And

36:57

by the way our organizations even reward us

36:59

for doing that stuff. We're having bigger staffs

37:02

for starting new initiatives and just think more

37:04

of yourself as sort of an editor in

37:06

chief. What do great editors do? They

37:09

cross things out. They make

37:11

things shorter. So I would just start

37:13

by anytime you're going to solve a

37:15

problem, start something

37:17

new, pause and remember

37:20

that you are wired to want

37:22

to add complexity rather than to

37:25

subtract it or not add it in the first place. I'm

37:28

going to follow your advice and shorten that answer.

37:30

We're going to subtract some words. Okay thank

37:33

you Bob. This was so much fun as always.

37:36

It was really fun to talk to you and you

37:38

do say unexpected things. I mean you do say things

37:40

that surprise me sometimes. Do I?

37:42

Probably because you argue with me. Well I'll say

37:45

stuff and say you'll say actually the evidence is.

37:47

So that's why you being

37:49

what you call a logic bully. Is that what

37:51

you're speaking of wives? Yeah and

37:53

you're one of the people who not only

37:55

tolerates it but seems to savor

37:57

it and crave it. You're so good at arguing.

38:00

Oh, I don't want, I actually wish

38:02

you'd get a little worse selfishly. You

38:05

win most arguments with me. I want

38:07

you to be worse, not better. I

38:09

just think you came too easily. Your

38:11

instinct is to trust the next generation

38:13

of organizational psychologists. Yeah, well, I trust

38:15

you more than my generation, but that's

38:17

another story. Okay, well, thanks so much.

38:20

Thanks,

38:23

Bob.

38:26

My biggest takeaway from Bob is that there

38:28

might be an optimal zone of consensus. If

38:31

no one agrees with you, you might be missing

38:33

the mark. But if everyone

38:35

agrees with you, you're probably not

38:37

challenging people enough. Rethinking

38:43

is hosted by me, Adam Grant. This

38:45

show is part of the TED Audio

38:47

Collective. And this episode was produced and

38:49

mixed by Cosmic Standards. Our producers are

38:52

Hannah Kingsley-Mogg and Asia Simpson. Our editor

38:54

is Alejandro Salazar. Our fact checker is

38:56

Paul Durbin, original music by Hontdale Stu

38:59

and Alison Leighton-Brown. Our

39:01

team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob

39:03

Winnick, Tamiah Adams, Michelle Quinn,

39:05

Banh Banh Chang, Julia Dickerson,

39:07

and Whitney Pennington-Rogers. The

39:16

book that we're talking about, The Friction Project,

39:18

was actually named The Shit Fixers for about

39:20

a year after you and I had a

39:22

conversation. I'm not sure whether you came up

39:24

with The Shit Fixers or I did. But

39:26

in any event, that did not survive the

39:28

editing process, nor should it have. Understandable.

39:32

Do you ever

39:35

feel like your laptop just keeps

39:37

going, that you are completely drained?

39:39

I think a lot of us

39:41

don't realize how much pain we

39:43

live in because of our interactions

39:45

with computing. NPR's Body

39:48

Electric, a special interactive series

39:50

investigating how to fix the

39:52

relationship between our tech and

39:54

our health. Listen in the

39:56

Ted Radio Hour feed wherever

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you get your podcasts. BRX