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between June 2021 and May 2022. Potential savings will vary. Hey

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everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back

0:50

to Rethinking, my podcast on the science of

0:52

what makes us tick with the Ted Audio

0:55

Collective. I'm an organizational psychologist

0:57

and I'm taking you inside the minds

0:59

of fascinating people to explore new thoughts

1:01

and new ways of thinking. My

1:06

guest today is Denise Hamilton, an

1:08

inclusion strategist. Denise is the

1:11

founder and CEO of Watch Her Work, a

1:13

digital learning platform for professional women and

1:16

All Hands Group, a work culture consultancy.

1:19

Her debut book is indivisible and

1:21

in a world dominated by division, it's a

1:23

force for unity. Denise never fails

1:25

to make me stop and think. She's

1:28

a master of injecting complexity

1:30

into oversimplified issues and shifting

1:32

the DEI conversation from outrage

1:34

to insight. All

1:40

right, let's do this. Hey, Denise. Hey. I

1:44

want to find out how you became an

1:46

inclusion strategist. Well, I have

1:48

been the first or the only woman

1:51

or black person in almost every job

1:53

I've ever had. And people started asking

1:56

me about that. They started asking me about that.

1:59

I was a woman. how I was

2:01

able to navigate these spaces

2:03

so successfully. What's

2:05

the secret? What are the cheat sheet

2:07

notes? And I was

2:10

prepared to say things they weren't

2:12

willing to hear. And that became

2:14

an opportunity to kind of build

2:16

and develop this whole school of

2:18

thought around how do you actually

2:21

successfully navigate difference? And

2:23

here I am today. One

2:25

of my favorite stories that you've shared

2:27

is the George Washington's Teeth story. And

2:29

I think it's a good window

2:31

both into the work that you do day to

2:33

day and also some of the resistance that you're

2:35

facing. One of the things that

2:37

I think is really important in

2:40

this work is understanding the importance

2:42

of being a truth seeker. There

2:45

are two groups of people. There are

2:47

keepers of the story and there

2:49

are truth seekers. Right? And

2:52

those are wildly different. And this story

2:54

really exemplified the difference between the two. A

2:57

whole generation of people was told that

3:00

George Washington's teeth were made of wood. And

3:03

I'm kind of fascinated. Like why was

3:05

this story told? Because that's not what

3:08

his teeth were made of. They

3:10

were made of ivory, like elephant

3:12

and the teeth of slaves. And

3:15

that story is horrible. And I understand

3:17

not wanting to tell that story but

3:19

I didn't really understand telling an alternate

3:22

story. I can't imagine people

3:24

were walking around saying, I wonder what George

3:26

Washington's teeth were made of. I just can't

3:28

imagine that was a thing. So this

3:31

idea of like not necessarily

3:33

even hiding a bad story

3:35

but creating a counter narrative

3:38

around that story. So I

3:40

shared that in one of the videos

3:42

and the videos were sent to a

3:45

group of executives for screening. And

3:47

one of the executives, he

3:49

was furious. He called my contact

3:51

within the company and said, that woman

3:54

needs to be fired. This is propaganda.

3:56

This isn't true. Well, I'm

3:58

from Texas. This wasn't my... first rodeo. I

4:01

had all the documentation, I had all

4:03

the notes, all the citations, and so

4:05

we sent it to him. And it

4:08

was so fascinating. The next day

4:10

he called back and he said, well,

4:12

I checked and I see that there's some truth

4:14

to this. I see that. But

4:17

I still don't think that we should

4:19

share this story because it's not helpful.

4:21

It doesn't advance the narrative. And

4:23

I thought that was fascinating. Yesterday,

4:26

this story was so

4:28

explosive and so horrible that I

4:31

deserved to be fired over it.

4:33

And today it doesn't matter at

4:35

all. And to

4:37

me, that's a perfect example of

4:40

people who have taken the responsibility

4:42

for being keepers of the story,

4:45

right? The idea that a certain

4:47

narrative needs to be presented in

4:50

order to protect our identities

4:52

and just who we see

4:54

ourselves as. And we

4:57

see that in so many different situations all

5:00

over society. And that's the benefit of being

5:02

in the role that I am. I get

5:04

to see really powerful examples

5:06

of the challenges of doing this

5:08

work. I have

5:10

so many questions just about that story. First of all,

5:13

what did you do? Well,

5:15

I mean, the bottom line is we

5:18

need to be truth tellers. He

5:20

and I had a conversation about

5:22

the importance of sharing

5:25

stories that broaden

5:27

out the understanding that we all

5:29

have about our past. We

5:32

are a resilient, powerful, incredible

5:34

country. We're not frail and

5:36

fragile. We can handle the

5:38

truth. I promise you we

5:40

can. One thing he said

5:42

that I thought was really interesting. He

5:44

said, you know, you're telling people that

5:46

George Washington shouldn't be a hero. And

5:49

I said, I actually haven't said anything

5:51

of the sort. What

5:53

I do think is that I have the

5:56

right to decide if he's

5:58

my hero. can't do

6:00

that without the truth. The

6:02

words you used were, you said,

6:04

that's fascinating. I think we all

6:06

know the value of responding

6:09

to defensiveness with curiosity, but

6:11

we really struggle to do

6:13

it. How do you do it? Well,

6:16

I have a personal rule. If

6:18

you love America, you got to love Americans.

6:21

And it's a hard, hard rule that I really

6:23

believe in, that you have to

6:25

actually care that the people, even if

6:28

they disagree with you, that the people

6:30

that you're dealing with improve,

6:32

get better, because I see

6:35

my success as tied to their

6:37

success. We're all in the same

6:39

boat. No matter if we're sitting in

6:41

the front, the back, the side, downstairs, that's like,

6:43

we're all in the same boat. And we need

6:45

to look at these issues through the lens of

6:48

shared interconnectedness. I

6:51

just really believe that. I'm going to

6:53

start every interaction ascribing good

6:55

intent. I understand the

6:57

power of stories and I understand that

7:00

we've been told quite a

7:02

few untruths. We've been

7:04

told a lot of bad stories, but

7:07

those stories are still shaping us. Those

7:09

stories don't go away. They don't release

7:11

us super easily. So when

7:13

I am talking with someone who I

7:15

disagree with, I really

7:18

think it's important to take the time

7:20

to understand what fact pattern are they

7:22

coming to this conversation with? What

7:24

is their intent? We're really

7:26

quick to ascribe ill intent. And I

7:29

just really work hard not to do

7:31

that. Where are you coming from? What

7:33

do you believe? What's shaping the decisions

7:35

that you're making and can we test

7:38

those things? Can we validate them? I

7:41

didn't call the executive and argue with him.

7:43

I sent him the research so he could

7:45

read it himself. And then we could talk

7:47

about it. We have to equip

7:49

people for excellence, even

7:52

in these subjects. And I think sometimes

7:54

we skip that step. We relegate

7:56

ourselves to emotional discussions. know

8:00

that I think that these are always

8:02

emotional discussions. I think there

8:04

are objective facts that we need to be

8:06

able to reckon with, and we have to

8:09

do that in an atmosphere of

8:11

respect. Well, I think this goes

8:13

to the point of your book, which is

8:15

that we need to take the idea of

8:17

indivisibility seriously. Tell me what

8:20

that means and what it looks like. I'll tell you what

8:22

it looks like for me. Really

8:24

valuing and appreciating and understanding

8:26

the beauty of each and

8:28

every person, seeing their value,

8:30

just the ability that we

8:32

all have to work together

8:34

to accomplish great things. The

8:37

best example I can think of of

8:39

that is the human body, right?

8:41

The heart and the lungs, they don't

8:43

argue. Which one of us is

8:45

important? They understand that they're both important.

8:48

When I think of leadership, I think

8:50

my job is to make sure that

8:52

every single member of my team can

8:55

be the best at their

8:57

function, can be the best at

8:59

what their giftedness allows them to

9:01

do. Quite frankly, disparate

9:05

treatment, discrimination, racism,

9:07

sexism, they waste

9:09

valuable, precious, priceless

9:12

energy, priceless giftedness. If

9:14

we seek to be

9:16

indivisible, we understand how

9:19

important each and every part

9:21

of us is. One

9:23

of the things I love about your take on

9:25

being indivisible is it takes

9:28

this old word that we all recognize

9:30

that's supposed to suggest we

9:33

remain undivided. You say

9:35

we can be indivisible even when we have plenty

9:37

of differences. I

9:40

think we have to be indivisible when

9:42

we have plenty of differences. To

9:44

be indivisible requires work. It's

9:47

not a passive state. It's not

9:49

something that you just inherit, right?

9:52

I like to think of America

9:54

as a beautiful old house with

9:56

great bones, But it still

9:58

needs renovation. It Still needs up to

10:00

the end. dating. It still needs fresh

10:02

paint and fixing of the foundation rates.

10:05

So if you are an heir to

10:07

discrete. Incredible asset. There's work

10:09

to maintain it and I think

10:11

I'm if there's one thing I

10:14

would call every person to do

10:16

is to step into their work.

10:19

You. Are not a passenger here.

10:21

You are an air raid. You're

10:24

an owner and I believe there's

10:26

a big difference between owners and

10:28

renters re owners six the sound

10:31

d Or they do electrical work

10:33

and plumbing work stuff that nobody

10:35

ever sees. Renters.

10:37

His peel. And stick tile. Paid.

10:40

Their temporary they're seeking.

10:44

To. Extract temporary zao you

10:46

from an asset. We

10:49

have far too many Extractor is

10:51

among us. This far too many.

10:54

And perversely, we've even gotten to

10:56

point the we celebrate some of

10:58

these people which is equally weird.

11:01

we need to be. Owners.

11:03

Of the space, what is the work

11:06

that eats one of us has to

11:08

do to make this space? This place.

11:10

this little hunk of rock that we

11:12

all live on. the best it can

11:15

possibly be. One

11:17

of the things I find compelling about

11:19

that articulation of America where you say,

11:22

look, this is a building with the

11:24

great foundation that needs renovation is if

11:26

you're probably pissing off people on both

11:28

extremes, could you have people who are

11:31

saying snow? The foundation is fundamentally broken.

11:34

The. Whole thing needs to be torn down. And. rebuilt

11:36

from scratch like split split is not

11:38

at all down and then of the

11:40

other extreme you have people saying no

11:42

actually nothing needs repair this is not

11:44

an old building it's not falling apart

11:46

it's actually it's the shining city on

11:48

the hill and it's gleaming right now

11:50

it always has and there's never been

11:52

anything wrong with it would you say

11:54

to each of those groups because i

11:56

think one of your superpowers is is

11:59

kind of bringing along to

12:01

your reasonable nuanced position?

12:04

I actually am a big believer

12:06

in America. I want to say

12:08

I have to say that right out the gate. I

12:11

think that we have

12:13

made some absolutely

12:16

horrific decisions. We've

12:19

had some practices that were absolutely

12:21

unacceptable and I could list them

12:23

for you, right? I list

12:25

a couple in the book because I want to honor

12:27

that that truth is in fact the truth. But

12:31

I also, you know, have to be

12:33

honest, like I take those things almost

12:36

as victories. Look

12:38

how far we have come. Look

12:41

how much we have changed. Look

12:44

at our capacity to take

12:46

a situation that seemed absolutely

12:48

impossible and corrected and

12:51

create an entirely new reality,

12:54

right? So to say all

12:56

of these horrible things that have

12:58

happened in history have rendered us

13:01

inert or ineffective or incapable

13:03

of improvement to me doesn't

13:05

really make sense. It's not

13:07

really true. And

13:10

I can't denigrate the incredible

13:12

work of generations of people

13:14

that went before us to

13:17

say this is hopeless. How

13:19

dare I say this is

13:22

hopeless? I was thinking

13:24

the other day about the

13:26

Montgomery bus boycott and Adam,

13:29

the Montgomery bus boycott happened

13:32

in Montgomery, Alabama for

13:34

a year in Alabama.

13:37

Those people walked through

13:40

incredible scorching heat. They

13:42

didn't have jobs like you and

13:45

I were pushing, pushing paper and

13:47

typing on keys. They had grueling,

13:49

physical, backbreaking work and they still

13:52

walked home for a year to

13:54

change policies. And we're

13:56

exhausted by tweets. We're worn

13:59

out by... every single commentary

14:01

that people make. We need to

14:03

soldier up a little bit and

14:05

pull ourselves together. This is

14:07

ours. We have the capacity to

14:09

make it better. And that is an

14:11

incredible gift. And I don't think we should

14:13

squander it. Beautifully put. I

14:16

have no notes. It's a message that a lot of people

14:18

need to hear. When I think about the

14:21

other extreme, why do we encounter

14:23

so many people who are attached to old

14:25

stories and who don't want

14:27

to recognize the mistakes of our past? Sometimes I

14:29

want to sit them down and say, listen,

14:33

studying the wrongs committed by your ancestors is

14:35

not an indictment of you. It's

14:37

a lesson for us. So

14:41

this group is tough because

14:43

I think there's a deep

14:45

grief that's associated with

14:47

the loss of your story. And

14:50

I don't think we honor that grief

14:53

when we talk to them. One

14:55

of my favorites is Vicks Vaporub. When

14:58

I was a kid and

15:00

I was sick and my mother and

15:03

my grandmother would rub Vicks Vaporub on my

15:05

chest and on my back, you could not

15:07

tell me it was not the healing bomb

15:09

of Gilead. You just couldn't tell me. I

15:11

knew instantly, oh, it's just a matter of

15:14

time until I get better. And

15:16

I think that old

15:19

stories don't release us easily. They

15:22

shape us. And so when somebody comes

15:24

along and says, hey, this

15:26

thing you believe, it's not really

15:28

true. It's not 100% accurate. There's

15:32

a grief associated with that loss.

15:35

And that's why I'm gentle when

15:37

I talk to people about this work

15:40

and try to unravel the stories.

15:43

Because I don't think that people

15:45

are just horrible and bad and terrible

15:47

and want oppression and want everybody, want

15:50

to keep a foot on everybody's neck. I

15:52

think they have a narrative that it

15:54

just takes a little time to unwrap.

15:57

We make our stories revolve around

15:59

our reality. That's what we

16:01

do, right? We

16:03

have to understand the difficulty

16:05

of releasing even a

16:08

broken story. And

16:10

our approach, our narrative has

16:12

to center around that challenge.

16:15

And we also need to have

16:17

the patience required because, you

16:19

know, I don't have to tell you, it's

16:22

hard to get people to think again. It's

16:24

funny that you say that because as you're talking

16:26

about the grief associated with letting go of an

16:28

old story, I'm thinking about

16:31

what I think is the most highlighted sentence in Think

16:33

Again, which is who

16:36

you are is not a

16:38

question of what you believe. It's a question

16:40

of what you value. And I think that

16:42

people are making a fundamentalist mistake. If they

16:45

start to take an

16:47

opinion, a story as

16:49

part of their identity, they've

16:51

then robbed themselves of the

16:53

opportunity to grow and evolve. If

16:55

I define myself as somebody who believes

16:58

that George Washington was a hero, then

17:00

I have closed my mind to any

17:02

information that might complicate that picture. If

17:05

I define myself instead as somebody

17:07

who admires a specific virtue of

17:10

George Washington's, like he

17:13

was a reluctant revolutionary, I

17:15

stay open to anything I might learn about

17:17

him, which I

17:20

think is where we all want to

17:22

be. I guess it's hard for me to even

17:24

fathom why people do this. Why do you

17:27

want to make a story part of your identity? Can

17:29

you help me understand that? I see people do it,

17:31

and I've written about it, and I've studied it,

17:34

and as a psychologist, I can't quite explain it. They

17:36

become organizing truths. We

17:40

organize around our stories. If

17:44

I have a fundamental belief

17:46

that water is wet, and

17:49

I've aligned myself with a bunch of people who

17:51

think water is wet, and then somebody comes

17:54

along and says, actually, water

17:56

can be steam, it can be ice,

17:58

then I have to. to decide

18:00

what my connection is to

18:03

all of these other people. It's not

18:05

as certain. It's not as sure. We

18:07

see this particularly with religious beliefs, right?

18:10

If I challenge a core religious belief,

18:12

well, wait, wait, wait, wait. I

18:15

have to believe that women can't

18:17

preach. I have to

18:20

believe that. Who am I if

18:22

I don't believe that? Right? We

18:24

have decided that only certain people

18:27

are important, significant, capable of impacting

18:29

culture, capable of creating change. And

18:31

the reality is even

18:34

the most flawed among us has

18:36

the capacity to create positive

18:39

change. And I

18:41

talk about it in the book with Bill Cosby, this

18:44

idea of here's this person that

18:46

was so central

18:49

to my rearing, my education, like

18:51

he taught me about money, about

18:53

boys, about dating. Like the Cosby

18:55

show was my, my third parent.

18:58

Really? And so

19:00

how do I reconcile all of

19:02

this information that he has done

19:04

these horrible things? Can

19:07

I appreciate the positive impact

19:09

that he's had on my life, but

19:12

be brutally honest about the harm he's

19:14

created as well? And maybe

19:17

land someplace in the middle. That's

19:19

a really complicated thing for

19:21

people to do. It's

19:23

complicated even further when you perceive

19:26

yourself as being under attack. Right?

19:28

When you feel like your way of

19:31

life, your way of thinking is being

19:33

confronted or challenged, there's

19:35

a temptation to like lock in and

19:38

hook arms with your fellow, you know,

19:40

believers and fight against the truth.

19:42

No matter how true the truth is. And

19:45

that's what we have to resist. We

19:48

have to be actual truth seekers

19:51

and not just keepers of the story. As

19:54

you talk about the ideals that people have for their

19:56

heroes, that's such a flawed understanding

19:58

of what it means. be a hero. I mean,

20:02

what inspires me about somebody I'd consider a

20:04

role model is not that they lack flaws,

20:06

it's that they did something

20:08

extraordinary despite those flaws. I

20:11

think of W.E.B. Du Bois, who

20:14

wrote about Lincoln. Here's the

20:16

quote. I love this quote. He

20:19

said, Lincoln is to me the most

20:21

human and lovable, and I

20:23

love him not because he was perfect, but

20:26

because he was not, and

20:28

yet triumphed. See this man?

20:31

He was one of you, and

20:33

yet he became Abraham

20:36

Lincoln. Unquote. Denise,

20:38

that's a hero. Absolutely.

20:42

We have become wimps.

20:46

We are addicted to

20:48

hopelessness and helplessness. I

20:50

don't think we are right now embodying

20:54

the sheer power, the

20:56

sheer capabilities that we

20:58

have. We have come

21:00

to a place that we define ourselves by

21:02

what we don't know and where we can't

21:05

go and what we can't do instead of

21:07

what the capabilities are for us to completely

21:09

impact our space, our

21:12

corner of the world. The best example

21:14

of this for me is Harriet Tubman. I'm

21:17

absolutely obsessed. Here is

21:19

this woman. She was petite. She

21:22

was disabled. She couldn't

21:24

read, couldn't write, had

21:27

never been more than a mile,

21:30

I believe, from the plantation. Yet

21:32

she ran from the south to

21:34

the north to freedom by

21:37

her knees. There

21:39

were a million reasons that she should not have

21:42

been able to do that, but she did it.

21:44

If that wasn't miraculous enough, she

21:48

went back. She turned around and

21:50

came back and got people time

21:52

and time again. I'm

21:54

amazed by how she did it. It

21:57

was three people on one trip, 17,000

21:59

people. people on another trip, five

22:02

people on another trip. I don't

22:04

know that we have the patience

22:07

to do small things over

22:10

and over and over again, but that's really

22:12

the only way we change the world. So

22:15

now we have this kind of culture of

22:17

punditry where everybody talks

22:20

about what needs to happen. They

22:22

talk about what other people made

22:24

happen, but they don't see the

22:26

responsibility that they have to make

22:28

things happen. And

22:30

consequently, things are falling down

22:32

around us. This idea that

22:34

some superhero is gonna swoop down

22:37

and lead us into a better

22:39

way, to me

22:41

is so anti-American. Stop

22:44

waiting on somebody to come down from

22:46

the sky and be phenomenal. You

22:48

step up and be phenomenal because you have

22:51

the power and the capability to do that.

22:57

Denise, let's go to a lightning round. What

23:00

is the worst advice you've ever received? You

23:03

have to be twice as good. You

23:05

have to jump twice as high and run twice

23:07

as fast. Terrible advice. I

23:10

have to follow up, why is that bad advice? Because

23:12

you are enough. The biggest

23:14

lie that marginalized people are told

23:16

is that they have to be more,

23:19

be greater, be better. No,

23:21

we all have to create spaces

23:23

that everyone can be enough

23:26

and still have an opportunity at the American

23:28

dream. What is something

23:30

you've rethought lately or are rethinking right

23:32

now? Scuba

23:34

diving. I'm a surface dweller. I

23:36

don't go too high, I don't go too low.

23:39

I'm a surface dweller. But my husband

23:41

and my daughter are both avid scuba

23:43

divers. And there's

23:46

something about doing something together as a

23:48

family that's making me think, maybe I

23:50

should give it a try. Stay

23:52

tuned. You

23:55

are very thoughtful and nuanced when

23:58

it comes to language. Is

24:00

there a word or a phrase that you think

24:02

we should abandon from our vocabulary? Authentic.

24:05

You're going to kill authenticity? I know

24:07

that's going to shock everyone. I would

24:09

kill it. We are really

24:11

good at bastardizing words. I

24:15

think that we have decided

24:18

that being authentic means

24:20

being unfiltered. Being

24:22

authentic means being uncooperative.

24:25

I don't like that framing. I

24:27

want to be effective. So

24:29

if I'm going to France, I

24:31

authentically speak English. But I'm

24:34

going to do everything I can to learn

24:36

at least a few words to be able

24:38

to navigate that environment. I don't think that

24:40

makes me inauthentic. I think it makes me

24:42

effective. And I think we've

24:45

lost that. The other thing about authentic

24:47

that I don't love is it's kind

24:49

of a neutral state where effective, it

24:52

takes a little work. I want to

24:54

actually be impactful. I want to make

24:56

sure that the ways I move through

24:58

the world are

25:00

kind, helpful, positive. I

25:04

authentically want to be in my pajamas about 90% of the

25:06

time. So I

25:09

don't know if authentic is pulling it off for me. I've

25:11

had a lot of trouble with authenticity over the last

25:13

few years too. And as I've written about it and

25:16

we've tackled it in podcasts, I

25:19

don't want anyone to be fake. I don't want

25:21

you to express something that you don't

25:23

believe. But I

25:26

think authentic to what should I be authentic

25:28

to my values, to my personality, to my

25:30

current thoughts, to my mood state, to

25:33

the concerns of the people around me, there are

25:35

a lot of options there. And the idea that

25:37

there's one sort of fixed

25:40

standard that I need to have fidelity to,

25:42

I think is just

25:44

absurd. And we all

25:46

have to interrelate. We have to

25:48

talk to each other. So what

25:50

does it take for

25:52

us to be ourselves, but to stay

25:55

in relationship and stay in the communication?

25:57

I think that's the important thing for

25:59

me. And that's what effective means

26:01

for me. Like if you are authentically

26:03

in a silo, I don't know that

26:05

you're helping anything. As you can tell,

26:08

I have a big commitment to forward

26:10

progress. And we have what

26:12

I think has become a culture of naming

26:15

problems, which is important.

26:17

I think we need people that name problems.

26:20

But we also need some solutions. We

26:22

need some people who are actively

26:24

engaged in making things happen and

26:27

committed to that. And I think

26:29

the kind of social media kind

26:32

of doing things for likes culture

26:34

has created this incentive structure around

26:37

naming problems and

26:39

declaring them. And we need a

26:41

little more balance there. What's

26:43

the question you have for me? How

26:46

do you think about

26:48

the fatigue around

26:50

inclusion? We

26:53

had a big burst of energy

26:55

following the murder of George Floyd

26:59

and we're starting to see

27:01

this fatigue and this

27:03

exhaustion. It's like you

27:06

have a pair of glasses on that blocked

27:08

out the color blue. And

27:12

George Floyd's murder knocked the glasses off.

27:16

So now you can see blue and you're

27:18

horrified by it. And then

27:20

it's like, wait, there's blue in healthcare

27:23

and there's blue in education. And there's

27:25

blue in all of these other areas.

27:28

And you get overwhelmed and fatigued

27:30

by that and kind of

27:32

want to just reach and put the glasses back

27:34

on so you can't see as much blue. Do

27:38

you think fatigue, overwhelm,

27:41

is shutting down our

27:43

capacity for progress? It's

27:46

a different kind of challenge than the one we had

27:48

a few years ago, particularly when I think about this

27:50

from an allyship perspective, right? Because you've

27:53

been seeing blue for a long time. It took a lot

27:55

of people a long time to recognize, hey,

27:57

we still have a lot of work to do to make sure

27:59

that people... who have been historically disadvantaged have

28:01

a voice and are treated with respect and

28:04

are given the same opportunities as everyone else.

28:07

I think earlier a lot of what we were seeing

28:09

was a problem that's called psychological standing, which

28:12

is, you know, it's not my

28:14

place. Like as a white man, what

28:16

do I know about the experiences of

28:18

black women? And you know,

28:20

it's not my right to weigh in on these issues.

28:23

And I think that psychological standing problem

28:25

was solved, or at least it evaporated

28:27

or it faded into the background for

28:29

a lot of people who realized, well,

28:31

whether I know exactly what to say

28:34

or not, it's better to say something

28:36

than to sit there watching people suffer

28:38

in silence. And I

28:40

have a responsibility to speak up and

28:42

advocate for progress, as opposed

28:44

to forcing the people who are disadvantaged

28:46

to now do that extra work. And

28:50

I think that was exciting for me to

28:52

see as somebody who went through

28:54

a version of that in

28:56

being afraid to talk about the data and

28:59

sexism in my own classes and

29:01

having colleagues sit me down and say, you

29:03

have a responsibility to teach the evidence and

29:07

me getting a little defensive and then saying, you know,

29:09

actually, you're right. And I

29:13

think that to me was progress. And then what happened

29:15

was a lot of people realized this is a lot

29:17

of work and there's

29:19

also a lot of backlash. And

29:22

I think it's actually the backlash more than the

29:24

effort that's causing the exhaustion. I

29:27

think that you have people trying to help and

29:29

then being told they're making things worse. Well,

29:32

what's the point? Why should I keep feeding a hand

29:34

that bites me? So

29:36

I'm going to turn this back to you,

29:38

Denise. What are you thinking about the backlash

29:40

issue? A lot of people are suggesting that

29:43

we abandon diversity, equity and inclusion altogether. I

29:46

just had a conversation yesterday with a very

29:49

influential C-suite executive

29:53

who said, DEI is ruining

29:55

campuses, it's ruining companies, it's ruining our country.

29:57

And I said, well, I'm going to do

29:59

that. don't throw out the baby with the

30:01

bathwater. You might object to some of the

30:03

ways that this cause has

30:05

been advanced and policies have been

30:07

implemented. But the idea that

30:09

we're going to just pretend that there aren't

30:12

people disadvantaged would be a huge step backwards.

30:14

So let's talk about how to do this

30:16

more effectively. Okay, so now

30:18

what? How do we do this more

30:20

effectively? You stole my answer. That's

30:22

my answer. We can all discuss

30:26

policies, right? We

30:28

can disagree on different

30:30

strategies and how we move

30:32

forward together. We're negotiating new

30:34

terrain. But we're

30:37

allowing people who are not

30:39

committed to the challenge or

30:41

the problem to frame the

30:43

argument and to validate or

30:45

invalidate the work. It's

30:48

like they're walking around saying, I hate

30:50

chemo. I hate chemo. My

30:52

hair falls out. I'm nauseous. I'm

30:54

sick. I'm tired all the time.

30:56

I hate chemo

30:58

too, but I hate cancer more.

31:01

And we all need to agree

31:03

that we have a cancer that

31:05

needs to be addressed. So

31:07

I'm open to anyone who has

31:09

a better idea. But I'm not

31:11

hearing a lot of solutions. I'm

31:14

not hearing a lot of alternative policies

31:16

or procedures. I'm hearing let's go back

31:18

to the good old days. And

31:21

that's a no go from me. And not

31:23

only is a no go, it is contradictory

31:25

to everything you've been saying for the last

31:28

three years. What are your values? So you

31:30

have a different way of doing it. I'm

31:33

all ears. Let's go can't wait for

31:35

that conversation. But just shut it all

31:37

down. Throw the baby out with the

31:39

bathwater. I think that's

31:41

ridiculous. And I think more than that,

31:44

once again, we have

31:47

excused people that don't do

31:49

any work. I

31:51

just don't move my life around critics.

31:54

I want to hear from people who

31:56

have actual ideas and solutions because they

31:58

see these problems as shared

32:00

problems, shared issues that need to

32:02

be addressed. And if you don't

32:04

really come at it from that

32:07

posture, why am I listening

32:09

to you? Why are you the

32:11

voice of what's good for

32:13

America? That isn't really a caring

32:16

posture. So to me,

32:18

if you don't honor the fact

32:20

that there's a real problem, and if

32:22

your observations and characterizations of

32:24

where we are today completely

32:27

ignores the challenges,

32:30

you are not an honest broker

32:32

in this conversation. We're not really

32:34

having a conversation. You are just

32:36

shutting down progress. And I

32:38

don't follow people who don't

32:41

believe in progress. As

32:44

we wrap up, one

32:46

of the things I thought was most profound in your

32:48

book was the idea of listening to your echo. Talk

32:52

to me about what that means. I

32:55

think we have a lot of

32:57

leftover stories, a lot of messages,

32:59

and their echoes, things

33:02

that are hearkening back to

33:04

a time that isn't

33:06

even appropriate anymore. So many

33:09

people hold on to echoes of old practices.

33:15

And that would be harmless if

33:17

they didn't superimpose that on

33:19

today's opportunities and today's realities.

33:24

We can be so much more

33:26

creative, but we can't really

33:28

be fully creative if we're holding on

33:30

to old baggage, old

33:32

stories, old concepts that keep

33:35

us stoked. And so

33:37

I think that one of our homework

33:40

assignments, and that's every one of us,

33:42

not just leaders, that's every single person

33:44

that hears this, is what are the

33:46

echoes in my life? What are

33:48

the things I still believe, I still hold on

33:50

to? What do

33:52

I really think about who should

33:55

be cleaning my house? What

33:57

does the president really look like? Do

34:00

I have those echoes kind of bouncing around

34:02

in my head? Because

34:04

if I don't release them, they won't

34:07

be released. Our shared

34:09

story is in fact shared. So

34:12

if we can purge some of those

34:14

echoes and those broken stories, we

34:16

all progress so much farther, faster.

34:20

Beautifully put. We need more of

34:22

your voice in the world, Denise. Thank you

34:24

so much for giving me a space to share

34:26

it. It's so beautiful to make

34:29

room for other people. And

34:32

we're strong enough to make room.

34:34

And I always appreciate you for doing that.

34:37

Well, I always learn something new when I talk to

34:39

you. And I love how

34:41

you not only consistently challenge my

34:43

thinking and assumptions, but also make

34:45

it fun. I look forward to seeing

34:47

what I'm going to rethink when I talk to you, as opposed

34:49

to begrudgingly accepting that you're

34:51

going to shatter one of my beliefs.

34:55

It's fantastic. The future is fun.

34:57

It's exciting. It takes some work,

34:59

but it's fun. What

35:04

really hit home for me in this conversation is

35:06

that we should never be too attached to what

35:08

we've built. Being proud of

35:10

some of the foundations shouldn't stand in the

35:12

way of renovation. No company,

35:15

country, or person is perfect.

35:18

Every structure should be open to improvement.

35:21

Every story should be open to revision.

35:26

Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. This

35:28

show is part of the TED Audio Collective,

35:31

and this episode was produced and mixed by

35:33

Cosmic Standard. Our producers are

35:35

Hannah Kingsley Ma and Asia Simpson. Our

35:38

editor is Alejandro Salazar. Our fact checker

35:40

is Paul Durbin, original music by

35:42

Hans-Hale Su and Alison Leighton Brown. Our

35:45

team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob

35:47

Winnick, Samaya Adams, Michelle Quint,

35:49

Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, and

35:51

Whitney Pennington-Rockers. If

35:55

you laid out your intestines, I

35:57

don't know why you would want to do that, but let's say you did that. I

36:00

don't plan to, let's be clear. Do you ever

36:02

feel like your laptop just keeps

36:05

going, but you are completely

36:07

drained? I think a lot of

36:09

us don't realize how much pain we

36:11

live in because of our interactions with

36:13

computing. NPR's Body Electric,

36:15

a special interactive series investigating

36:18

how to fix the relationship

36:20

between our tech and our

36:22

health. And in the TED

36:25

Radio Hour feed, wherever you get your podcasts.