2:01

It's

2:03

Eliza

2:06

Hardy-Jones.

2:23

The song is Long Winter Shadows.

2:26

It's from the new album Pickpocket. In

2:28

addition to her solo career, the singer-songwriter

2:30

and multi-instrumentalist is a member of the

2:32

War on Drugs and is played with

2:34

Iron and Wine and Grace Potter. And

2:36

she is my guest today on World Cafe. I

2:38

am Kaleo. Eliza, it is so nice to meet

2:40

you. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me.

2:42

How are you doing? How are things? Everything's

2:44

great. I'm doing very well. I've had a good

2:46

year. Excellent. Well, there's

2:49

a lot to talk about. I kind

2:51

of want to start though a little bit

2:53

before your new album Pickpocket. A

2:55

few years back actually. There was a

2:57

documentary that I was watching that takes

2:59

place after you released your 2016 album

3:03

Because Become. And it opens with

3:05

you thinking that you were pretty

3:07

much done with the idea of being

3:09

a solo artist. In fact, you said

3:12

you felt like there wasn't room for you

3:14

in that world. So

3:17

what ultimately sort of made

3:20

you think, you know what, maybe actually I kind of want to pursue

3:22

this again. Well, I think

3:25

through that time I never

3:27

actually stopped writing music.

3:30

You know, it wasn't like, well, now I'll stop

3:32

being a songwriter. Put the lock on the notebook

3:35

and throw it in the basement. I

3:38

had continued to work on

3:40

things and write some ideas down. But

3:43

the other big thing that was going on in

3:45

this period of time was that starting in about

3:48

2017, I started the

3:50

process of trying in earnest

3:52

to have a baby. So

3:55

that sort of missing piece of

3:57

that Shaking Through documentary that

3:59

I... that I was not talking about

4:01

was that at that point I was deep

4:04

into a process of trying to

4:06

get pregnant and trying to like figure out why

4:08

I couldn't be pregnant and all of that. And

4:12

I think that that process was

4:14

so consuming that

4:16

eventually I started to like turn to music

4:19

as a way to help myself manage

4:23

the grief around that process because

4:25

for me, it was very,

4:27

very difficult. It was incredibly painful

4:29

physically and emotionally. And so I

4:31

think I sort of turned to

4:35

recording and songwriting as a way to just sort

4:37

of like help myself navigate out of that. And

4:39

early on I didn't think like, and I'll make

4:41

a record about it. It was just like, let

4:43

me just go into my studio. Let

4:45

me just like spend some time with

4:47

my instruments and write down some

4:49

lyrics and write down some ideas. And

4:51

if I ever decide that this is gonna be a record, I

4:54

can change the lyrics. I can change what it's

4:56

about. And I eventually did not change the lyrics,

4:58

which I feel good about, but it was a

5:00

thing of like, it

5:02

didn't start as like, let me try another solo

5:04

record. It started as like, let me

5:06

retreat into my music to try to help myself.

5:10

We're here with Elisa Hardy-Jones on World Cafe.

5:12

The new album is Pickpocket. Oftentimes

5:16

an album title is pretty self-explanatory,

5:18

but this album title, it's

5:20

a really great metaphor. And the line

5:22

Pickpocket comes up in the first song

5:24

that we are gonna hear. Grief

5:27

is a pickpocket. Don't see

5:29

it coming till it left you broke. Do

5:31

you remember when you kind of had that realization

5:33

or where you're like, here's

5:36

this idea that I got kind of kicking around. Yeah,

5:38

I mean, that line really just like

5:41

came out. I think

5:44

that song was written at

5:46

the lowest point of

5:48

my depression. And

5:52

it really was like, I'm

5:54

sure like went into my studio

5:57

already crying. Just

5:59

like. I

8:00

just knew about your self,

8:03

about your self. This

8:05

was the end. I

8:16

kept a secret fulfilled just

8:18

like a lie. Even

8:21

when I was sleeping and

8:23

laying a bond I

8:26

could not recognize. Never's

8:30

a long time so I'll find

8:33

a way to make peace with

8:35

what we do. And

8:38

I'll never sing a song to my

8:41

daughter or a son cause I already

8:44

do, already do. I

8:57

love you. This

9:21

was the end. I

9:23

learned the names of

9:25

my neighborhood birds. I

9:29

followed them quiet so as

9:32

not to threaten their way

9:34

into the wild. The

9:38

reef is a big pot but

9:40

never see it coming till they

9:42

left you there for a day.

9:46

The reef is a stranger

9:48

that steals everything that you've

9:50

learned about yourself. This

9:55

was the end. Let the sky burn

9:57

around us. This was the

9:59

end. we

12:00

had run out of options. And then we

12:03

had this sort of magical option where close

12:06

friends of ours who had

12:08

also gone through IVF had a

12:10

leftover embryo. They offered us that

12:12

embryo. And so

12:14

I was able to get pregnant using

12:17

this beautiful gift, this incredible gift of

12:19

love. And now I feel like I

12:21

have this amazing thing where I have

12:23

this extra family. I've connected to these

12:25

people in this new way. So

12:28

it's an interesting thing, especially with that song where

12:30

that song was so much about it being done.

12:33

And then to be like, oh, wait, it's not done. Like,

12:36

let's open the door again. And so

12:38

hearing that song now, it feels

12:40

like this very specific moment in time. And I

12:42

think I wrote the song to try to say

12:44

to myself, like, it's okay that

12:47

the door is closed, but it's so interesting

12:49

now that it's like, there was this other

12:51

door that I didn't know existed. And

12:55

you have this snapshot of you pre-knowing

12:57

there was a different door. You

12:59

said it earlier that like, that was during the hardest time, hardest

13:02

time meaning that you felt like you had exhausted

13:05

all of the options. Yeah, I mean,

13:07

towards the end of the process,

13:09

we had successfully, I had

13:12

successfully gotten pregnant and then found out

13:14

I had an ectopic pregnancy, which

13:17

we lost. And just that process was,

13:20

there was a lot of grueling interventions.

13:22

And I think losing that pregnancy at

13:24

the end of such a long process,

13:26

and then knowing that there was nothing

13:29

more was so hard. And

13:33

then coming to the end of such a long, many,

13:36

many years long process that

13:39

had been so taxing, but

13:41

I think you spend the whole time thinking like, but it'll

13:43

be worth it. Like, this is such a

13:45

hard thing, but it'll be worth it in the end. And then to

13:47

come to the end of it and be like, oh, it's not worth

13:49

it. Cause we don't get to have a family.

13:52

We don't get to be parents.

13:54

And that was the hardest moment for me,

13:57

was like all of this, which

13:59

I had endured. because

14:01

I knew that, you know, like, that I

14:03

was willing to make those sacrifices in order

14:05

to be a parent. I

14:07

feel like coming to the end of that and being like, nope, you don't get

14:10

it. You know, that was the hardest part.

14:13

We're here with Eliza Hardy-Jones on World Cafe.

14:15

The new album is Pickpocket. So

14:18

Ballad for the Baron. What

14:21

should people know about this song before we

14:23

hear it? Ballad for the

14:25

Baron is a song I wrote about

14:30

letting go of the dream of motherhood. And,

14:36

you know, I think that we live in a world

14:40

where I think women are

14:42

given the message that motherhood is the

14:44

true goal. It's like

14:46

the true meaning of life.

14:50

And I think for so long, I did

14:53

not feel that way. I felt like

14:55

my true goal was to build beautiful

14:57

relationships with the people that I loved

14:59

and to make art. And

15:01

it wasn't until later, until my sort of

15:04

mid thirties that I thought like, you know,

15:06

I've had these amazing adventures and like I'm

15:08

ready for this new adventure. I'm ready for

15:10

the adventure of motherhood. And

15:14

I think that it's okay to

15:16

choose motherhood. And I think it's really okay

15:18

to choose to not be a mother. And

15:21

so I wanted to write this song as

15:23

the sort of like, you can choose

15:25

to not be a mom. You can choose

15:28

to like let go of this dream. And

15:30

I think it's, you know, because

15:33

I, at the moment that I was

15:35

writing it, was not choosing that, right? It was something

15:37

that had been chosen for me. It was again, one

15:39

of those things of just like trying to find peace

15:42

with the whole thing and trying to find

15:44

joy in the process. But

15:48

I hope that it can be interpreted

15:50

as a like, you're allowed

15:52

to let go of what the world wants from

15:54

you. You know, the ballad of

15:56

the bear and like you don't have to be able

15:58

to produce what the world wants. You

24:02

meet a serious quilter, like you can feel the

24:04

enthusiasm in the room. There's

24:06

a passion there. There's a real passion there.

24:09

When did you first start getting into quilting before we talk about

24:11

the project that you worked on? I started

24:14

getting into quilting after college. I

24:16

think it was like a time where

24:19

people started to, you

24:21

know, get into partnerships and maybe they were

24:23

getting married and having babies. And I just

24:25

wanted to be able to give something

24:28

special to mark that moment. And I

24:30

think quilting is about marking

24:32

moments in time. So many quilts are memorial

24:34

quilts or wedding quilts or baby quilts or

24:37

graduation quilts. And they are this

24:39

way of being

24:41

able to give somebody the ultimate

24:43

showing of love because you spend

24:45

so much time creating it. And

24:48

I think people feel that. They feel how

24:50

much time you spent creating something beautiful for

24:52

them so that they can

24:54

have that moment forever. So

24:57

tell me about this project. So

24:59

in 2016, I had released my

25:02

record, Because Become, and I got

25:04

a message on Facebook

25:06

from this Russian painter named Daria Orlova

25:08

who said, I found your music on

25:10

Russian Facebook and I'm a painter and

25:12

I'm, you know, doing this exhibition and

25:14

it's on shadows. And my first album

25:16

had a lot of shadow content. And

25:18

she was like, I would love to

25:20

talk with you about your record. And

25:23

I was hoping that I could use your music in

25:25

my exhibition. And I just thought

25:27

like, what a cool and wonderful thing. And this

25:29

is 2016. So it's like before

25:31

I would have just assumed that this was some

25:34

sort of like Russian bot. Oh, you could trust

25:36

this person. Yeah, like I really was like, oh,

25:38

this is just a human being who's reaching out to me in

25:40

this human way. And

25:42

after speaking with her, she said, oh, do

25:44

you wanna talk to Ekaterina Shirova who runs

25:46

the Arctic Art Institute? She's hosting my exhibition.

25:48

And so I was out on tour with

25:50

Grace Potter. I sat in the front cab of the bus at like

25:53

6 a.m. and zoomed

25:55

into Ekaterina. And we just have this

25:57

most wonderful conversation where we talked about

25:59

folk. art and folk music and quilting

26:02

and embroidery and tradition. And she just said

26:04

to me, if you come up with a

26:06

project, we'll host a residency for you in

26:08

the Arctic. Oh, whoa. And the

26:10

project is that I would interview women in the

26:12

Russian Arctic and in the American South. I

26:16

would find women who would share their stories

26:18

with me, talk about their lives, but also

26:20

more importantly, to share folk music with me.

26:22

So they would sing songs for me from

26:24

their traditions. And then I

26:26

would invent a transcription method. So I

26:29

invented this new transcription methodology. Rhythm

26:32

is shape, pitch is color. And so each of

26:34

these quilts is an exact transcription. It can be

26:36

read like a piece of music, an exact transcription

26:38

of the song as the woman sang it for

26:40

me on the day when we did the interview.

26:44

And so I did this big sort

26:46

of collection of quilts. I

26:48

was lucky enough to have it displayed

26:50

at the International Quilt Museum. And

26:53

they actually acquired the collection. So it

26:55

was a major excitement thing

26:57

for me. But the whole project

26:59

was just a wonderful experience. It's

27:01

so awesome. It's so awesome. This

27:03

is World Cafe. We're here with Eliza Hardy-Jones.

27:06

The new album is Pickpocket. To

27:08

close this out, we have a live performance

27:11

of a song called Rosie Lee. About Rosie

27:13

Lee Tompkins, who's a folk artist and a

27:15

great American artist. Tell me a

27:17

little bit about her and why you wanted to write a song

27:19

about her. Rosie Lee

27:21

Tompkins was an African-American woman from

27:24

California. I think she's actually from

27:27

somewhere in the South, but moved to California as a kid. And

27:31

she was this incredible folk artist

27:33

quilter, just sort of making quilts

27:35

because it was her

27:37

calling. She just loved it. And she would

27:40

use it as meditation and use it to

27:42

create these beautiful things for the people in

27:44

her life. And she started selling some of

27:46

these quilts at flea markets. And

27:49

at the same time, there was

27:51

this quilt collector named Eli Leon, who was

27:53

a great champion of African-American quilters. He sort

27:55

of became a self-taught scholar

27:58

of the forum. And

28:00

he found this woman selling these incredible

28:02

quilts and just knew that what

28:05

she was making was so above and

28:07

beyond anything he had ever seen and

28:09

just became her patron. He

28:13

bought a lot of her quilts, but also

28:15

organized some exhibits for her. And

28:17

in the beginning, she was not interested in

28:19

that because she was not interested in having

28:22

sort of a public persona. So he helped her

28:25

to come up with this fake

28:27

name, Rosie Lee Tompkins, so that she could

28:29

continue to have her life and make her

28:31

art without having to worry about what it

28:34

meant in the art world. Yeah. And

28:36

after Eli Leon's death,

28:38

he left his entire collection to the

28:41

Berkeley Museum of Modern Art. And

28:43

a few years ago, they had this major exhibition

28:45

of her work. And I just

28:47

think that Rosie Lee Tompkins is

28:49

one of the most incredible American

28:51

artists of the last

28:54

millennium, you know, and not just as

28:56

a quilter, but just as a visual

28:58

artist, as a modern artist. But

29:00

I love her story, that I

29:02

love that it was always about

29:04

the creating. It was just the

29:07

making for the making. It

29:09

was never about like creating a brand

29:11

or a persona or finding success or

29:13

getting the next exhibition. It was always

29:16

just about making art as

29:18

a way to connect to God, making art as a way

29:20

to connect to her family, making art as a way to

29:22

connect to her history. I'm

29:25

so inspired by that idea. And so I,

29:27

as I was making this record, just felt

29:29

like I wanted to write a song about

29:31

her and about

29:34

what I had learned about her and what

29:36

I know about her as an artist and

29:38

as a person, which is, you know, only

29:40

what we know through other people talking about

29:42

it because she was a very private person.

29:45

Let's take a listen to it. It's Rosie Lee

29:47

from Eliza Hardy Jones here on World Cafe. The

30:03

purpose is a prayer, the

30:05

making for the maker And

30:07

the velvet and the wool and

30:09

the cotton and the silk Gift

30:14

to God, a shadow in

30:16

a name A

30:20

covenant for comfort, in the yellow

30:22

and the blue And

30:25

the purple golden shoes, a message meant

30:28

for love And

30:30

to God, so the skills of man That

30:38

a body belongs in

30:41

his hand The

30:57

boar rush and the veil, she's circling

30:59

a sermon A

31:05

lion and a lamb are

31:08

singing in her hands for

31:10

love A mirage

31:12

in a stream, a

31:16

song in color sounding A

31:19

scattering of time, an

31:21

offering of light A

31:24

meant for love, and to God,

31:26

so the skills of man That

31:35

a body belongs

31:38

in his hand

31:41

The creeper pain,

31:44

the joyful day

31:48

The only tapestry

31:50

you ever made

31:55

Your mother's eyes

31:59

repeat me beside

32:02

the brother man

32:04

on the other

32:07

line A

32:23

free and broken square The

32:26

patchwork is a mirror If

32:29

you follow bending strings to the heart

32:32

of everything There's

32:34

love The

32:37

purpose is a pair A

32:40

cover made for color The

32:44

yellow and the blue The

32:46

purple golden hues Are made

32:48

for love The

32:52

people of pain The

32:55

joyful day on the tapestry

33:00

You are the way Your

33:06

mother's eyes Be

33:09

with me Besides, what

33:11

a man I'd be

33:14

All alive Today

33:54

it's Eliza Hardy-Jones with Rosie

33:56

Lee. The new album Pickpocket

33:58

is available now. If you

34:00

have a moment, would you shout out the great musicians

34:02

who played with you during this session? Oh my

34:04

gosh, so many wonderful musicians. Charlie

34:07

Hall, Dave Hartley, and Anthony LaMarco all

34:09

played with me from The War on

34:11

Drugs. Benny Yurko, Ben

34:13

Allimond, Tim Do, Jordan West,

34:15

and Matt Mustie were all

34:18

my Grace Potter buddies. Daniel

34:20

Hart plays some wonderful strings.

34:22

Severn Tucker does some extra

34:24

synths. Solomon Dorsey,

34:26

John Levi on bass

34:29

and guitar. I've never actually met them, but thank you

34:31

for playing on my record. I'm

34:34

sure I'm forgetting somebody, but there were

34:36

so many wonderful contributors. Awesome. The

34:39

new album Pickpocket is available now. Liza, this was

34:41

a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming in.

34:43

Congrats on the new record. Thank you so much

34:45

for having me. I really appreciate it. You got it.

34:47

We're back in a moment with more World Cafe. I'm

34:52

Rachel Martin. After hosting Morning Edition for

34:54

years, I know that the news can

34:56

wear you down. So we

34:58

made a new podcast called Wild Card,

35:00

where a special deck of cards and

35:03

a whole bunch of fascinating guests help

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us sort out what makes life meaningful.

35:07

It's part game show, part existential deep

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dive, and it is seriously fun. Join

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Lynch's films explore dark themes, but in

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We're supposed to be like little dogs where the

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tail is wet, wagging and being happy. Little smiles

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on her face all day long. This is the

35:32

way it's supposed to be. I'm Rachel Martin.

35:34

Join us on NPR's Wild Card

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