1:59

flying out of four pabits. The

2:02

100th Bomb Group is one of the most celebrated

2:05

of all the bomb groups, I suppose.

2:09

And Lucky, thank you so much for coming on.

2:11

What a privilege. What an honor. Well, it's

2:13

my honor, Jim, to be with you. Thank

2:16

you so much for inviting me. Oh,

2:18

no. I mean, we're absolutely thrilled about

2:20

it. And Lucky, just before

2:23

we get to joining the 100th Bomb

2:25

Group and everything, I'd be really interested to know about where you

2:27

were born and brought up. I mean, how did,

2:30

what was your journey before you actually joined

2:32

the United States Army Air Force? I

2:34

was born in Chattanooga, Tennessee,

2:38

and grew up on what was known

2:40

as Missionary Ridge. Right.

2:42

Missionary Ridge was a very famous

2:45

battle during a civil war in 1864. And

2:47

I grew up amongst all

2:53

of that memorabilia and

2:56

history and legend of

2:58

the Civil War. Of course, went

3:01

to school locally in

3:04

in Chattanooga. And

3:07

my best friend and I, when we graduated

3:09

from high school, discovered

3:12

that the war in Europe

3:15

was really becoming so

3:17

prolific that we were, the

3:20

U.S. was bound to be involved

3:23

eventually. And so

3:26

we determined that since

3:28

we both wanted to fly, that

3:30

the best thing we could do would be to go

3:33

to Canada and join the Royal

3:35

Canadian Air Force and get

3:37

our training. And then once

3:39

America became involved, we

3:42

could transfer to what

3:44

was then known as the United States Army

3:47

Air Corps. Yeah. We'd

3:49

be in rank and we would be already

3:52

trained and we'd be a step ahead

3:54

of our buddies. But that required

3:57

parental consent because we

3:59

were underage. Yeah, so how old

4:01

were you when the war broke out

4:03

in Europe in 1939? So

4:09

what was it your father did? What

4:11

was his background? Well, my father

4:13

was a stockbroker, an

4:17

independent stockbroker. And in those

4:19

days in America, you

4:22

could have an independent status

4:26

and not be a member of the

4:29

New York Stock Exchange, but you needed

4:32

to have a connection with someone

4:34

who was. And so

4:36

he had his own independent

4:38

company and our

4:42

entire assets were represented

4:45

in stocks. And

4:48

of course, that was prior to the catastrophic

4:51

crash in 1929, when the stock market went south

4:57

and everybody

5:00

was terribly sugar

5:03

in to find that their stocks were

5:05

worthless. So what did that mean for your

5:08

father? Well, it was very devastating.

5:10

He at that time was riding rather high. He

5:17

loved horses and he had

5:19

a stable of about

5:21

five Arabian show

5:24

horses, five gated show

5:26

horses that he was very

5:29

proud of. We

5:31

were one of the fortunate

5:33

families who actually

5:35

had two cars. My

5:38

mother had her own automobile, which

5:40

was not exactly

5:43

normal among families

5:45

in those days. Two older siblings

5:48

were in private schools. And

5:51

so we were probably known

5:54

as upper middle class. Yeah,

5:57

reasonably well and annually. stage.

6:01

But then of course, overnight, everything

6:04

changed. Yeah, my dad

6:06

had to sell his horses and his

6:08

stables and, and clawed

6:10

his way back though, after the crash,

6:14

and eventually did

6:17

redeem himself financially.

6:20

But it was a pretty, pretty difficult

6:22

time. And quite

6:24

a contrast to what we had enjoyed

6:28

as in our

6:31

younger years. And lucky that

6:33

you mentioned about living on Missionary

6:35

Ridge. Did you ever meet anyone

6:38

who had fought in the Civil War? Because

6:41

it's a bit like me talking to you

6:43

now. You know, it's by

6:45

the 1930s, anyone, the

6:47

youngest people who had fought in the Civil

6:49

War would have been in their their

6:52

90s, I suppose. I just wondered whether you ever

6:54

met anyone. I don't recall that

6:56

I did. I know

6:58

that my elementary

7:00

school was right across the street from

7:03

this enormous Memorial

7:06

Park that was on the top of the

7:08

ridge, where there were

7:10

all of these larger than life sized statues

7:13

of Civil War heroes. There

7:15

were stacked cannonballs, there were

7:18

cannons, huge tablets that

7:20

explained the battle. And right

7:22

on the crest of the ridge stood

7:25

a five story steel observation

7:27

tower, which was where General

7:29

Bragg had the

7:32

opportunity to really

7:35

examine all of the terrain.

7:38

I don't know whether you recall,

7:41

but historically, Missionary

7:43

Ridge was a disastrous loss

7:46

to the Confederate forces because

7:50

Ulysses Grant had

7:53

over had assembled over 80,000 troops

7:55

in Chattanooga and

7:57

surged up

8:00

the hill and

8:03

drove Bragg off. So

8:06

it was an ignominious

8:08

defeat. Yeah, yeah. But

8:11

I remember the fog rolling in over

8:13

the ridge. Tennessee

8:15

Valley was almost always

8:18

shrouded in fog and clouds.

8:21

And so it was a rather

8:23

depressing environment that

8:26

I grew up in. And I thought,

8:28

boy, if I ever get out of here, never

8:30

coming back. Did you? Really?

8:33

And lo and behold, what do

8:35

I do? I end up flying out

8:38

of England where the weather was

8:40

equal to or worse and

8:43

particularly to fly in. Yes.

8:47

So you escape one fog

8:49

shrouded valley for a country and

8:52

continent that's permanently shrouded

8:54

in fog. So ironic

8:56

wasn't it? Yeah, absolutely. So

8:59

you and your, what was your best friend's name?

9:02

My best friend's name was Leroy Sullivan.

9:05

We called him Sully. Sully. And

9:07

Sully was the only child

9:10

of a World War I veteran who

9:14

had been mustard gassed

9:16

and died a horrible death just

9:18

as Sully was being born.

9:21

So he never really knew his father. How

9:24

did you eventually join up? Did you join the

9:26

Royal Canadian Air Force? Well, we

9:29

went to our parents. Sully

9:32

and I went to his mother and explained

9:34

what we wanted to do. And she listened

9:37

very carefully. And she said, well,

9:39

Sully, if you really feel

9:42

that this is something that you must do, then

9:46

you have my blessing. And I naturally

9:48

thought, well, if Mrs. Sullivan,

9:51

who only has one child and

9:53

is willing to allow him

9:55

to go fight for the king

9:58

and in England, that. But

10:00

I would not have any difficulty with my parents.

10:03

But it turned out differently because

10:06

my mother was impressed with

10:09

Mrs. Sullivan's sacrifice. And

10:11

she said she wouldn't stand in my way.

10:14

But my father took a very dim

10:16

view of it and called

10:18

us both idiots that we were

10:21

sticking our nose into somebody else's

10:24

conflict and that I should get

10:26

back in school. So he refused

10:28

to give his consent. But

10:31

Sully's mother did. And

10:34

he went to Canada

10:36

and trained on spitfires and

10:39

went through the entire North African

10:42

campaign and eventually

10:44

ended up being posted back in England.

10:47

And meanwhile, of course, Pearl Harbor

10:50

occurred. And then there wasn't any

10:52

question as to my service. And

10:54

so I then joined the Army

10:57

Air Corps as an aviation cadet

11:00

and went through my training here

11:02

in the States. Just to go back to

11:04

Sully briefly, what

11:06

an amazing act of sacrifice

11:09

by his mother. I mean,

11:11

that's extraordinary, isn't it? It

11:14

is indeed. Wow, what a woman. I mean,

11:16

that's an incredible thing because she must

11:19

have been absolutely heartbroken,

11:21

I'm sure. Well, he was a very

11:24

popular guy, handsome as he

11:26

could be. Yeah, he was

11:28

president of his class in high

11:31

school. We had an ROTC

11:33

unit and he was the cadet

11:36

colonel in charge of

11:38

the regiment. And I

11:41

was under him as one

11:43

of the two battalion commanders

11:46

in our ROTC unit. So

11:48

we had a little taste of

11:50

the military even at

11:53

our schooling. Well, and that's actually

11:56

quite helpful, isn't it? It was. In

11:59

addition to that, that because of

12:01

my dad's activities

12:04

with horses. There was

12:06

a cavalry post

12:09

just 12 miles from Chattanooga

12:12

called Fort Oglethorpe where the third

12:14

cavalry was located. And

12:17

we as townies were invited

12:19

to join their social

12:22

activities. They fox

12:24

hunted on the weekends and

12:27

they had horse shows and

12:29

my dad's horses were invited

12:32

to participate in that. And we

12:34

have many trophies that

12:38

his horses were awarded as

12:40

a consequence. And in the

12:42

summer, they had a civilian military

12:44

training camp, a CMTC

12:48

at Fort Oglethorpe. And

12:50

I participated in that for two weeks

12:53

for a couple of summers. So I

12:56

was quite familiar

12:58

with the cavalry, even

13:01

aspired in my youth

13:03

to perhaps one day going

13:06

to West Point and making the military

13:08

a career. Of course,

13:11

the war intervened and that went

13:14

by the boards. But I

13:17

did have a pseudo military

13:19

background as a consequence of those

13:22

activities. But when you and

13:24

Sully originally thought about joining

13:26

the RCAF, was

13:30

it because you'd harbored a

13:32

childhood love of flying or was it

13:34

because that was the only

13:37

realistic option of getting into

13:39

the fighting early? I think we

13:41

had kind of stars

13:43

in our eyes, Jim. We

13:46

were not terribly

13:48

smart about it. We

13:51

did realize that the

13:53

war, that the world was changing

13:56

because of the Nazi

13:59

occupation. of all of Europe and

14:01

its threatening invasion

14:04

of the British Isles. Things were

14:07

heating up in the Pacific as

14:09

far as war clouds were

14:11

concerned. And so we were

14:13

becoming more and

14:15

more aware that we

14:18

were prime candidates because

14:20

of our age to

14:24

being called into military service.

14:27

And I guess we

14:30

were not terribly

14:32

smart about it, but we thought

14:34

we were. At that age and

14:37

stage in life, you think you're

14:39

smarter than anybody else anyway. So

14:42

it was not perhaps unusual

14:44

for us to take that attitude or

14:47

viewpoint. We're terribly naive.

14:49

We were gullible. And

14:52

as I look back on my military service

14:54

now and the way things transpired,

14:57

I realize how innocent

14:59

we were. So when you did eventually join

15:01

up, was it straight in and

15:04

what was your route to finding yourself

15:06

in England? After Pearl Harbor,

15:09

nearly everybody in my fraternity,

15:12

I was then in the university in my sophomore

15:15

year. I was studying chemical engineering.

15:18

And the only reason I was is because

15:21

I had an older brother who had

15:23

graduated as a chemical engineer

15:26

and was then employed by

15:28

a large chemical

15:31

company in the East. And

15:33

I thought, well, he could give me a job

15:35

when I graduated. So I

15:37

didn't have any other aspirations.

15:41

I was no good at chemistry or

15:43

engineering, and I was not

15:46

succeeding really as a

15:49

student in college. So

15:52

my mind and my heart

15:54

and attention were more

15:57

directed towards my military

15:59

service. service, which eventually,

16:02

of course, I

16:04

joined and ended up

16:06

going through the cadet program

16:09

to obtain my pilot's

16:11

license with the Army

16:13

Air Corps. So can you remember when it was

16:15

you were actually, when you actually

16:17

joined up? Yes, I joined up in 1942, right

16:22

after Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor occurred

16:25

in December of 1941, as you know.

16:27

And so

16:29

in January of 1942, along

16:33

with my fraternity brothers who

16:37

qualified, we

16:39

joined up and

16:43

certainly it was a patriotic

16:46

thing to do. I don't know that many

16:49

people today appreciate how

16:52

unified the country

16:54

suddenly became when we were

16:56

attacked at Pearl Harbor. Right.

16:58

It seems that the country was almost galvanized

17:02

into action and service

17:05

to support the troops and to

17:08

do whatever was necessary to assist

17:11

Britain in itself

17:14

against the Nazi surge.

17:17

And we also, of course, were retaliating

17:21

from the attack in Pearl Harbor

17:24

on the Pacific side. So America

17:27

suddenly found itself

17:29

fighting on two fronts. And all

17:31

of you were very much the same mind, were you, that this

17:33

was something you just had to do.

17:36

But presumably there was a bit of, was there

17:38

some youthful excitement as well, or

17:41

was it really just a sense of this

17:44

is an evil that needs to be stopped? It was

17:46

more or less a patriotic thing

17:48

to do. Everyone was

17:51

putting their shoulder to the wheel. People

17:54

were coming out of their homes and

17:56

going into the factories, particularly the

17:58

women. It ended up

18:01

being the emancipation of women

18:03

in America. So

18:06

it was a new day.

18:09

It was something that all

18:11

the way from grandchildren to grandparents,

18:14

people were doing what they could

18:17

in a patriotic profession to

18:20

support those who were in uniform. And

18:22

so you joined up in early 1942. And

18:26

I think I'm right in saying you were sent to Shorefield

18:29

in Sumter in South Carolina, is that

18:31

right? No, originally I was sent

18:33

to Montgomery, Alabama

18:35

to pre-flight. I've

18:39

actually been there. I've

18:41

actually been to Montgomery,

18:43

yeah. That's where

18:46

I was, I joined 4,000 cadets and was

18:48

nominated as the cadet adjutant

18:51

who was

18:57

second in command of the cadet

19:00

corps. And primarily

19:03

because I could stand in the middle of the parade

19:06

ground and scream, pass

19:08

in review and be heard. But

19:15

that did stand me in good stead

19:17

as I went through my training because

19:19

as a consequence I was captain

19:22

of each of class that

19:24

I passed through both pre-flight,

19:27

primary, basic. I

19:29

went first to Avon

19:32

Park, Florida for my primary

19:34

training and was captain of my

19:36

flying school class there.

19:39

From there I graduated to basic training

19:41

in Sumter, South Carolina. That

19:44

was when you were there? I was captain of the class

19:46

there and then ended up

19:49

in Valdosta, Georgia where

19:51

I eventually graduated from

19:54

twin engine flight school and

19:56

got my wings and my commission. February

20:00

of 1943. Amazing.

20:03

And we had you wanted to follow

20:05

Sully and be a fighter pilot or

20:08

were you okay with twin engines?

20:11

At that time you were asked what

20:14

aircraft you'd like to fly and

20:16

of course that was sure to be the

20:18

one that you weren't assigned to. But

20:24

strangely enough something happened

20:26

to the in the 100th

20:29

bomb group which was a B-17 outfit

20:32

then located in Kearney, Nebraska

20:35

that had been through all of their pre-flight

20:38

pre-combat training. It was

20:40

suddenly decided by someone

20:42

and nobody has ever explained this

20:45

or the reason for it decided

20:48

that they would remove all the

20:50

co-pilots from the crews

20:53

and replace them with 40 of

20:56

us from my flying school class

20:58

who had never been in a B-17. And

21:03

so we were suddenly thrust into

21:05

the right seat second

21:07

in command of the crew and with

21:11

no training and no familiarity

21:13

with four engine airplanes at

21:16

all. And this didn't happen

21:19

in any other group in

21:21

the Air Force or the Air Corps

21:23

and why in the world it happened to the to

21:26

the 100 nobody's ever explained. How

21:28

extraordinary. But it was certainly unfair

21:30

because it was unfair to the individuals,

21:33

it was unfair to the crews. It

21:36

was unfair to

21:38

the war effort because it weakened

21:40

the crews due to the fact

21:43

that you had one

21:45

member of each crew that had

21:47

no familiarity with the aircraft. Right.

21:51

And so you were posted to Nebraska to join

21:53

the 100th bomb group there? That's correct initially.

21:56

And how long did you have there getting used to your

21:59

new crew? new environment before

22:01

you were shipped overseas? Well, we were immediately

22:03

sent to Walla Walla Washington for

22:08

some training of other

22:10

crews that were going

22:12

overseas. And

22:15

here we had no training ourselves,

22:17

but we were in an instructor position.

22:21

And we stayed there for two or three weeks

22:23

and then we were sent back to Kearney and

22:27

shipped overseas.

22:30

We were issued new aircraft

22:32

with modifications that

22:35

enabled it to fly across the

22:37

North Atlantic nonstop and

22:41

go to war. You're going to be killed anyway,

22:43

so you might as well go to war. So you didn't

22:46

stage in Greenland and Iceland or

22:48

anything like that, just straight across. Unfortunately,

22:50

we had to learn on the job.

22:53

That's amazing, isn't it? And how

22:55

are you, I mean, I know I appreciate

22:57

it's a long time ago and you were a very,

22:59

very young man then. Was there a

23:02

sense of bewilderment or excitement

23:05

or dread or all of the

23:07

above? I mean, were

23:09

you disappointed to be sent to B-17s

23:12

or were you quite,

23:14

were you sort of okay with it? I think the best

23:16

description of my reaction

23:20

was befuddled. Yeah.

23:23

I couldn't understand it and neither could all

23:25

of my classmates. As you

23:27

may well imagine, there

23:30

were varying degrees of

23:33

acceptance among

23:35

the crews of these

23:37

newly admitted pilots,

23:41

taking the second in command

23:43

position on the crew because

23:47

it had never been done before. And

23:49

we really were

23:52

hard pressed to run

23:54

to catch up and to learn

23:56

and therefore our only

23:59

instructions. was from our pilots.

24:01

Pilots rather jealously guarded

24:04

their ability to land and take off

24:06

and fly formation and

24:08

do the things that they wanted

24:11

to do. So some crews

24:13

accepted it as inevitable and

24:15

just went on. The crew I

24:17

was assigned to resented it really

24:23

very vociferously, particularly the

24:25

navigator in the bombardier who

24:28

had previously been very close

24:30

to their co-pilots and

24:33

loved him, they butted with him, they

24:36

hung out with him, drank with

24:38

him. And when he was

24:40

removed, they were just

24:42

crest fallen

24:44

and

24:46

proceeded to take it out on me. It

24:49

wasn't my fault, but nevertheless,

24:52

I was the butt

24:54

of their juvenile, actions,

24:58

they short sheeted my bed and they

25:01

would give me false rumors about where

25:03

I was needed or what I was supposed to

25:05

do and did

25:08

everything to make my life hell. That

25:10

must have been so difficult. So I wasn't

25:12

clasped into their affection by

25:14

any stretch. And

25:19

it was a rather strange relationship.

25:24

My pilot was

25:27

not a good leader. He

25:29

did not take any position as to what they

25:32

were doing. He was

25:34

fully aware of their

25:37

resistance, but

25:40

he didn't condemn it or condone it. And

25:44

as a consequence, I was just

25:47

sort of twisting in the wind. So

25:50

it was up to me to make the most

25:52

of a very bad situation. I

25:54

mean, I'm looking at a photo of you, lucky

25:57

when you must have been a

25:59

good leader. have only been 19 or 20 years old. And

26:03

I'm not going to lie, I mean, you look

26:05

about 15 in this picture. I

26:07

mean, you're a very, very young looking

26:10

young man. You know, it's a reminder,

26:13

if anyone needs a reminder,

26:15

that you guys

26:18

being sent off to fight, you know, fly

26:20

and operate these huge

26:22

beasts and take them on bombing

26:25

missions over Germany, etc. We're

26:28

all very, very young men at the

26:30

time. Exactly. You know, you're

26:32

boys, really. It's amazing

26:34

we were so young and innocent and gullible.

26:39

As I look back on it now, Jim,

26:41

I realize that it

26:43

was just extremely lucky

26:46

and fortunate that I survived because

26:49

all of the odds were against me and

26:53

us. But particularly

26:55

against those of us who had been

26:57

thrust into this unhappy

27:00

situation without

27:02

any

27:04

recourse. We were guinea pigs.

27:08

Someone was experimenting with us as

27:11

far as their strategy and their application

27:13

of the bomber force and

27:16

how it could be used in Europe most

27:19

effectively. The

27:21

little that we know is Crouman, that

27:26

once we got to England, Sir Arthur

27:28

Harris made it

27:31

known when no uncertain terms

27:34

that he was adamantly opposed

27:37

to our going out in broad daylight

27:39

in mass formation and

27:41

bombing. And he did everything in his

27:44

power to convince General

27:46

Ira Aker, the head of the 8th Air Force

27:49

then, to abandon daylight

27:52

bombing and join the British

27:54

in only nighttime bombing. And

27:57

that was, of course, a very important thing.

28:00

as we all know, an ongoing

28:04

debate throughout the war

28:06

had never changed. Yeah. So

28:09

how did you, how did you resolve

28:11

the situation with this crew

28:14

that you'd been thrust into? It

28:16

sort of resolved itself

28:20

to the fact

28:22

that when we got to Newfoundland, which

28:25

was our last stop before we made

28:27

the big jump across the North Atlantic.

28:31

Uh, we had to await a favorable

28:33

tailwind because it

28:35

was such a long flight. We couldn't make it without

28:39

a tailwind. And,

28:41

uh, as such, while we were, the

28:43

whole group, uh, was there

28:46

waiting for the winds to be favorable.

28:48

The pilot, I was on my crew

28:51

took it upon himself. He was married.

28:53

He had a son, but he took it upon

28:56

himself one night to go across the field

28:58

and shacked up with a, uh, a

29:00

British WAF and ended up

29:02

in the hospital with a raging

29:05

case of BD. And

29:07

so while the rest of the group

29:10

finally, uh, proceeded,

29:12

uh, to go to England

29:14

or to go to Scotland,

29:16

which was our first stop, we had

29:18

to sit there as a crew for

29:21

two weeks waiting for

29:24

him to be recovered. And

29:26

of course, in those days, the only thing they

29:28

had for treatment was Sulfa

29:32

and he was back, uh, he was bedridden

29:34

for two weeks and, uh,

29:37

overdosed with Sulfa. So

29:39

when he was finally released, uh,

29:42

he was so weak, he couldn't stand. And

29:45

we had to literally load

29:47

him into the cockpit. And so

29:49

I called these two guys, the navigator

29:52

in the bombardier aside, and

29:54

I said, now look, you SOBs, you've

29:57

made my life sure hell. But

30:00

you got to depend on me to

30:02

get us to combat well

30:04

that sort of level of playing field because

30:07

good for you it was it

30:09

was stark reality

30:12

that they couldn't go anywhere without

30:14

relying upon me and and

30:17

what little i had learned

30:20

about. Running

30:22

the airplane much less running the

30:24

crew wow i mean that

30:26

must have been quite a moment but they

30:29

listen to all this you do you did get

30:31

them there so you should approve

30:33

yourself to do you find yourself slowly

30:35

but surely winning them over well i

30:37

told the way the

30:40

head knocker the one that was really

30:42

the most antagonistic. The navigator

30:46

i said to you you've got to hit

30:48

the land fall in scotland

30:51

on the nose or i am

30:53

personally going to throw your ass

30:56

out of the airplane without a parachute. I'm

31:00

sorry i suppose you got it you gotta speak

31:03

their language haven't you got

31:05

a you gotta show who's well. I

31:08

had to mature pretty rapidly

31:10

jam i tell you and

31:12

i had

31:15

to be a call on

31:17

forces and i didn't know i was capable

31:19

of.

31:20

What i want an introduction i mean

31:22

it's extraordinary lucky but

31:25

you got there i mean you must have taken off

31:27

from from new found land with the

31:29

heart must have been pumping about wasn't it was

31:32

indeed because we were so

31:34

heavily loaded or overloaded

31:37

actually. When we took off

31:39

from new new fenland finally the

31:42

end of the runway was a sheer drop

31:44

of a hundred feet to the to the ocean

31:47

and as we took off

31:50

we sunk down to just over

31:52

the white caps. I

31:55

thought we were going to a ditch

31:57

because i didn't think the plane was going

31:59

to be. able to carry

32:01

the load. But we managed

32:04

to fly along for an

32:07

hour, an hour and a half to burn off

32:10

slightly enough fuel to lighten

32:12

our load and eventually

32:15

star step up to a decent

32:17

height where we would get our

32:20

engines would operate efficiently and

32:23

would be out of danger of

32:26

crashing into the sea. That

32:29

was a 12 and a half hour flight to

32:32

Scotland. Well I suppose

32:35

at the end of that you're going to know a little

32:37

bit more about the plane than when you

32:39

started. Learned

32:42

quickly.

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34:18

I mean can you remember the sense of relief

34:20

at touching down and Grenek or wherever

34:23

it was you touched down? Higher

34:25

destiny, that's all I can say. You had

34:29

to believe that you

34:31

had a guardian angel on each shoulder. Well

34:33

you clearly did Lucky, I mean amazing.

34:36

So you got there, you got to Scotland

34:39

and were you getting a little bit more respect from the rest

34:41

of the crew and the navigator by this point? Yes,

34:43

things did improve quite

34:45

measurably. They

34:48

still didn't give up but because

34:51

they thought I was a weak

34:53

sister I guess but

34:55

gradually through I stayed

34:58

with that crew for 21 missions.

35:02

Did you really? They ended up during

35:04

the the pilot was determined

35:08

that he was going to do the fastest tour

35:10

that anyone had done in the European

35:13

theater and sure enough

35:16

he ended up being the with with

35:19

the exception of myself and one

35:23

other crewman, a gunner, completed 25

35:26

missions in 89

35:28

days and that was

35:30

unheard of. That's one every

35:33

four days isn't

35:35

it? One every three days. And so they were rotated

35:37

back to the States and I still had four

35:39

missions to fly. Right,

35:42

so were you then bumped up to full pilot at that

35:44

point, first pilot by that point? Well

35:46

I was checked out as first pilot but

35:48

also on my 22nd mission

35:51

the crew in front of me contained

35:55

the operations officer for my squadron

35:58

who was second in command of the squadron

36:01

and they were rammed

36:03

by an FW 190 and blew up. And

36:07

so he was killed. And here

36:09

I was as a second lieutenant, landed

36:11

back at the base and the

36:14

squadron commander said, well, where is

36:16

the operations officer? And I said, well,

36:18

he's not going to return because I

36:20

saw them explode. And he said, well,

36:23

then you are the new operations

36:25

officer. And

36:27

I said, well, that's going to be pretty awkward,

36:29

isn't it? I'm just a second lieutenant.

36:32

And here I'm going to be ordering majors

36:34

and lieutenant colonels and captains

36:38

as to when they're going to fly and with

36:40

whom and all of this. He

36:43

said, don't worry about it. We'll give

36:45

you all the support you need and we'll

36:47

promote you as rapidly as allowed.

36:51

Well, in the combat

36:53

zone, you could be elevated

36:55

one rank every 90

36:58

days. And it so happened that

37:00

I was already in for first lieutenant,

37:03

see. And it was awarded

37:05

the end of that month. And

37:08

so I finally

37:11

gained a little more respect and

37:14

rank, but I was really

37:17

operating with one hand

37:19

behind my back almost because

37:22

I did have senior status as far

37:25

as combat experience was

37:27

concerned, but

37:29

with 22 missions under my belt. But

37:32

I still didn't have the rank. And

37:35

so he did have to support

37:38

me or else that wouldn't

37:40

have worked. I'm conscious we've jumped

37:42

the gun a little bit because I haven't

37:45

even asked you what time of

37:47

year it was in 1943 that

37:49

you got to England in

37:52

the first place. I became

37:54

the operations officer on October

37:56

the 8th. It was the fall. was

38:00

my 22nd mission

38:02

and 1st Lieutenant

38:05

November the 1st. And so

38:07

it was late in 1943 that all of

38:13

this occurred. But lucky, when did you

38:16

first reach England? So that must have been

38:18

what, July, August, something like that?

38:20

We started flying in June. June,

38:23

you got to England in June. Yes, so that's when, of course,

38:25

that's when the 100th Bond Group gets over there. And you

38:32

move into four Pabets. I mean, what did you

38:34

make of England? And what did you make of

38:37

four Pabets? I mean, it's

38:39

a sleepy little spot in Norfolk,

38:42

isn't it, four Pabets? Well, it is. And

38:44

we had little or any opportunity

38:46

to get acclimated before

38:49

we were thrown into that. We were

38:51

flying almost every day because

38:53

our pilot had volunteered

38:55

us to fly because he

38:58

wanted to finish up. And

39:01

we were we were zipping

39:03

through the requirement to qualify

39:08

for rotation back to the States as

39:11

instructors. So it was

39:14

pretty hectic. We were learning the

39:16

airplane, we were learning formidable

39:19

capabilities of the loofwopper.

39:22

Yep. We had our hands full and we had to

39:24

stay focused on our job or

39:26

else we'd go, we'd

39:29

end up in the black house. Yeah, I

39:31

mean, there's obviously the

39:34

more skilled you are, the more you've

39:36

developed a kind of sixth sense,

39:38

the better your chances. I mean, I mean,

39:41

to a certain extent, there's a randomness

39:43

isn't that whether you're going to get hit or not,

39:45

or whether that that cannon shell

39:47

that penetrates hits you or passes

39:50

through harmlessly, that that's chance, isn't

39:52

it? But there are things you can do

39:54

to give yourself a better chance, do you think?

39:57

Well, you do everything you can to hopefully

40:00

give yourself a better chance. But

40:06

bottom line, it's just sheer luck. Right.

40:09

Okay. As to whether or not you zigged

40:12

instead of zagging at the right time

40:15

or if the

40:17

mission that you were on or the part

40:19

of the formation that you were flying

40:22

in was not attacked as heavily

40:25

as other parts of the formation.

40:28

That could vary widely just

40:30

within one group, but certainly

40:32

within one formation, a wing

40:35

formation of three groups. Yeah.

40:38

Sometimes you would go out and

40:41

it would be a milk run. You wouldn't

40:43

get any damage or you'd get bare

40:46

foot little fighter attack. Ironically,

40:52

we did not have any fighter escort.

40:56

Yeah. And

40:58

if fighters in Europe that

41:00

could, that had the range

41:03

that could carry us to the target. Initially,

41:08

when we started flying combat, the

41:11

RAF would escort us

41:14

to the enemy coast and

41:16

then they'd be out of fuel. So they'd have

41:18

to return. Yeah. And that meant

41:22

as soon as we were over enemy territory,

41:24

we were on our own. We were flying naked

41:28

and we were flying at a high altitude and

41:30

unpressurized aircraft that

41:33

was bitterly cold. I've

41:36

soon learned that we didn't have just one

41:38

enemy. We had four.

41:40

Right.

41:41

And it all started with F. The

41:45

first was fear. Yeah. Because

41:47

we were scared to death of

41:50

what we were going to be encountering against

41:52

the Luftwaffe who was so experienced.

41:55

They were professionals. They'd been fighting for

41:57

four years. Yeah. And

41:59

here we. were just citizen soldiers,

42:02

Johnny come lately's and we were

42:05

in their backyard. They had their

42:07

backs against the wall and they were fighting

42:09

for their homeland. We

42:11

were 6,000 miles away. The

42:13

second was the flak. The anti-aircraft

42:16

defenses were devastating. They

42:18

thought by flying at high altitude

42:21

and broad daylight that, uh, their

42:23

flak couldn't reach us. It could

42:25

not only reach us, but it did go well

42:28

beyond us. Yep. And so

42:30

we were losing as many aircraft

42:32

from, from flak and defenses

42:36

as we were from fighters and

42:38

of course the fighters were very, very

42:40

formidable. They had been, uh, uh, experienced

42:44

in the East flying against the Russians.

42:48

They had fought the battle of Britain against

42:50

and the West, uh, against the

42:52

British and they knew what they were doing

42:55

and they quickly developed techniques

42:57

that were very, very devastating

43:00

to our formation. So this is basically

43:02

to fly straight at you, wasn't it? That, you know,

43:05

they were flying, uh, uh,

43:08

head on, uh, in line

43:10

of breast and, uh,

43:12

they were very, very effective. And

43:14

of course the last, but not the least

43:16

was the freezing. Yeah. The

43:18

temperatures at high altitude, even

43:21

in the summertime were

43:23

just absolutely debilitating 50

43:26

degrees below zero. Yeah. And

43:28

you've got to try and fly this thing. I mean, it's just,

43:32

you can't imagine how that impacted

43:34

your ability to perform and it,

43:36

it, all of us. And

43:39

it was such an alien environment

43:41

that, uh, uh, we had very

43:43

great difficulty coping with it. Yeah.

43:46

And there's only so many sheepskin

43:49

leather jackets you can put on, isn't

43:51

there? I mean, and you've

43:53

got to control the plane. It

43:55

didn't really keep us warm. And

43:58

we had heated, we had. And heated underwear

44:01

too that plugged into the electrical

44:03

system if it didn't short out.

44:06

Which it often did, didn't it? I mean, it often

44:08

did. So,

44:10

I mean, you talk about the fear.

44:13

A lot of people that I've spoken to say,

44:16

you know, the fear comes while

44:18

you're waiting, you know, before

44:20

the mission. And then once you get airborne,

44:22

you're so busy that you don't have time

44:24

for that. I mean, was that your experience? Because

44:27

I can only imagine what it

44:29

must be like myself. But if

44:31

I was flying, if I was at the pilot's

44:33

controls in a B-17 and I've

44:36

got a Fokker Wolf coming

44:38

straight towards me and his wings are kind of,

44:40

you know, winking fire and cannon

44:43

shells are hurtling towards me, I think

44:46

I'd be pretty scared. Indeed you were.

44:49

And it is true

44:51

that your fear is

44:55

sort of subjugated by your

44:59

attention to flying formation and trying

45:02

to keep the airplane functioning. And

45:04

things happen extremely rapidly

45:07

in combat. And

45:09

consciousness and your action

45:12

and reaction to what is

45:14

happening to you and staying focused

45:17

on what you're really trying to do and let's

45:19

get the bombs

45:21

on the target. But

45:23

the fallacy of the

45:25

strategy of

45:27

going out in broad daylight, five

45:30

miles above the ground in

45:32

bitter cold and dropping

45:34

a free falling object on a target,

45:37

despite the fact that we supposedly

45:39

had a secret weapon in the

45:42

northern bomb site, that was a total

45:44

fallacy. The bomb

45:46

assessment damage of the

45:49

8th Air Force in

45:51

the final analysis was we

45:53

didn't come within nine miles of the target

45:56

less than 25% of the time. So

45:58

that meant we had to go back again. again and again

46:00

to the same target and face the

46:02

same increased

46:05

resistance. How

46:08

futile was that? Well,

46:11

it is something of a miracle

46:13

that you and I are talking today,

46:16

because obviously you

46:18

arrived into the 8th Air Force

46:21

at exactly the moment of

46:24

its greatest danger, because obviously the

46:26

8th Air Force had come into being in England the previous

46:28

summer, but then most of the planes had

46:31

then been sent to the Mediterranean into North Africa.

46:33

The 8th Air Force, the second half of 1942

46:35

and the first part of 1942, was obviously operating

46:39

just as pretty much almost

46:41

a skeleton force. By the time

46:43

the 100th Bomb Group comes over,

46:45

you know, you're a really good day, maybe

46:48

200 plus aircraft, but usually it's less

46:51

than that that it can put out. And

46:53

it's a time of experimentation,

46:56

and there's been this whole theorizing

46:58

by the bomber men in the

47:01

1930s about how bombing would be conducted

47:03

and this idea that

47:05

you do it in daylight in a

47:08

large formation where you're mutually

47:10

supporting and you've got these 13 machine

47:13

guns and together that would

47:15

be enough. And you

47:17

arrive slap bang in the middle of a

47:19

time where that

47:22

theory, the shortcomings are becoming

47:25

increasingly apparent. And

47:27

obviously you're getting out there just

47:29

before the first Schweinfurten-Reggansburg

47:32

raid. I mean, were you in that particular

47:34

raid, the first Schweinfurte? Yes.

47:40

And that must have been a terrible day. Well,

47:46

it was depending upon where you were in the formation

47:49

and what your particular experience

47:53

on that raid

47:56

was. It could vary all the

47:58

way from a milk run to... the

48:00

worst. And you never

48:02

knew. And if

48:04

you wallowed in self-pity about

48:07

how slim your chances

48:09

were of survival, you'd

48:13

go nuts. And that

48:16

was one of the things the operations officer

48:18

had to gauge was whether

48:20

or not each member of each crew

48:23

in his squadron was still maintaining

48:26

their equilibrium enough under

48:28

battle conditions to perform.

48:31

Because once you

48:33

get shot down or you leave

48:36

the formation, you're

48:38

a dead duck. But

48:42

there are no funerals. There

48:44

are no memorials. You

48:47

don't worry about who's

48:49

gone down. They're

48:52

just gone. They're just empty bunks that

48:54

have to be filled, refilled

48:57

with replacements. And

48:59

that incidentally turned out to be

49:01

one of the greatest miscalculations

49:04

that Hitler was guilty

49:06

of. He was

49:08

determined or was convinced

49:12

that we could not replace our

49:14

losses and that daylight

49:16

bombing would be suicidal. And

49:20

Sir Arthur Harris certainly

49:22

agreed with him. The

49:26

British had tried daylight bombing and

49:28

had been cut to ribbons. And

49:30

as a result, he

49:33

was convinced that the

49:35

only way we could bring the

49:37

Nazis to their knees was

49:40

nighttime bombing. And

49:43

so that debate, of course, was never made

49:47

known to us as aircrew. We were

49:50

just told to go out and fly. And

49:53

to keep flying and to keep hitting the

49:55

target. Now, the debate between

49:57

the British and the Americans over

50:00

whether daylight or nighttime

50:02

bombing was the best utilization

50:05

of the bomber force was ongoing

50:08

throughout the war. Personally,

50:11

I feel that our command

50:16

was remiss and

50:18

not at least giving nighttime

50:21

bombing a fair trial. I'm

50:24

not saying that it would have been superior.

50:26

I'm not saying that they

50:29

were right, but they were so

50:31

stubborn that they refused to even

50:34

give it a fair trial. And

50:36

if it didn't work, they could always go back the

50:38

night. It's a daytime bombing. Yeah,

50:40

sure. So it was really

50:45

ego on

50:47

their part that said,

50:49

well, our strategy is superior.

50:52

Yeah. I mean, there were other things at play, weren't there? Such

50:55

as wanting to become an independent air

50:57

force and wanting to do their own thing

51:00

and not being perceived to be in

51:02

the shadow of RAF bomber command

51:05

and so on. But you're right. You're,

51:08

you're, you're, those, the

51:10

backdrop of that is young men's lives

51:12

and young men like yourself. I

51:14

mean, just very briefly lucky to go back

51:16

to, to Schweinfurth. So on that,

51:19

that August raid, were you

51:21

on that day where you just happened

51:23

to be in the right position? I mean, is that how

51:25

you got through it? Exactly.

51:30

No other explanation. I

51:32

mean, can you remember seeing

51:35

planes sort of dropping like flies? Oh,

51:37

of course. Of course you did.

51:40

And that memory doesn't leave you

51:42

very quickly. And of course it

51:44

takes a toll. Yeah, of course. As you

51:46

do it more and more and you see

51:49

more and more planes going down and

51:51

you say, well, why them and not me?

51:53

And when is the bullet going to have my

51:56

name on it? Right. And

51:58

if you're really. concentrated on

52:00

that or allowed yourself to

52:04

worry about that sort of thing. Um,

52:07

it was very detrimental and you wouldn't,

52:10

uh, you, you wouldn't be able to continue.

52:13

So you had to develop, everybody

52:15

had their own demons. And

52:17

you had to develop your own strategy

52:20

and your own superstition,

52:22

uh, of, uh, what

52:25

you needed to do to survive.

52:28

Yeah. Yeah. And that's

52:30

why the name of the book is damn lucky

52:32

because the bottom line is that

52:34

it's surely

52:37

and simply a roll

52:39

of the dice. Yeah. I was a fortunate

52:42

one that, uh, uh, that survived

52:45

at 101. You have to believe

52:47

that you were destined

52:49

to, for some reason to

52:52

be spared. Yeah. And you never know

52:54

why. Yeah, of course. Of

52:56

course. Did you develop a technique?

52:59

Did you just think every time the demons entered your

53:01

brain, did you kind of have a, have a way

53:04

to push them to one side or,

53:06

or how did you

53:08

keep going? Because not everyone did.

53:10

Jim, I get asked, I get asked,

53:13

uh, frequently how after

53:15

seeing your buddies go down and,

53:18

and, uh, suffering losses

53:21

on your own crew and that

53:23

sort of thing, you psych yourself up

53:25

to get back in that airplane the next day

53:28

and go again. And truthfully,

53:32

I don't know. I

53:36

look back on it and I think my God,

53:39

how in the world could anybody

53:41

seeing and knowing what you

53:43

do now, having been introduced

53:46

to the baptism

53:48

of fire in combat,

53:51

continue to go out and do it. Yeah.

53:54

And you don't really understand

53:57

or know, uh, in there. human

54:00

psyche or I

54:03

didn't at any right, anything

54:06

else to do but stay focused on what

54:08

you were there to do. And that was to get

54:10

the bombs on the target. Of course.

54:13

Do your damnedest to get the bombs on

54:15

the target. Yeah. Because if you didn't,

54:18

you're going to have to keep going back until you

54:20

did. But even if you're doing

54:22

a rapid tour, as

54:25

you were when you first got out to

54:27

England, your first 21 missions. There's

54:31

still gaps in between. There's still

54:33

time off. There's plenty

54:36

of hours in the day where you're not actually

54:38

flying. I mean, how did you presumably,

54:41

I mean, were you making friends on

54:43

the bomb group and

54:45

on the squadron? What

54:48

did you do in your downtime? Well, actually,

54:52

in my own case, I was fortunate

54:57

to be to have the responsibility

54:59

of being the operations officer.

55:03

And I didn't have any free time. Right.

55:05

But before that, before that, I didn't go to,

55:08

I never went to the rest home. I

55:10

never took a leave. Well, I

55:12

got to London once. And

55:16

for the most part, I was just staying so

55:18

focused and so occupied that when

55:21

I finally finished my missions and

55:24

they sent me back to the States, I

55:28

didn't fly for four months. And

55:30

I nearly went nuts because

55:33

I said, for God's sake, give me an

55:35

assignment. I've been

55:38

so focused on being

55:40

busy and doing something,

55:42

but I'm not contributing. I'm not doing anything.

55:45

Right. As a consequence, I ended

55:48

up in the black house in St. Petersburg

55:51

and they said, well, why are

55:53

you here? Of course, some guys

55:55

hit the bottle. Some

55:58

guys committed suicide. Some

56:00

guys couldn't be

56:02

rehabilitated and they had to be sent

56:04

to the infantry or cashier. So

56:08

it varied widely. But

56:11

the impact and the effect

56:14

of being under that

56:16

kind of duress 24-7, well, it's going to

56:20

be a killer. Yeah, no, absolutely. I

56:22

honestly, I'm in

56:24

total awe of what you did. I

56:26

just don't know how you got through it. So,

56:30

Lucky, you took over as operations

56:32

officer after your 22nd mission. And

56:35

that was, you were saying in

56:37

October 1943, how much longer were you out with the

56:40

Hunter of

56:42

Bomb Group? How much longer did you have to go? Well,

56:45

I had four more missions to fly

56:47

and I

56:50

did not complete my tour until mid-February

56:55

of 44. Back week

56:58

was that I flew my 22nd mission and I only

57:00

flew one mission out

57:03

of those.

57:10

But

57:12

on October the 8th, we went to Bremen

57:15

and I brought home what was left

57:17

of the group, which was six ships out

57:20

of 18. The

57:23

next day we went to Merriamburg

57:26

and we didn't have any losses.

57:29

The following day, we went

57:31

to Munster on the 10th. And

57:36

we, out of 13 airplanes that we put

57:38

up, we only got one back. And

57:42

then on August, October

57:44

the 14th, we went to Schweinford again.

57:49

I forgot our losses then, but that

57:51

constituted the Black Week. And

57:55

I'll be coming back to England this

57:57

October to commemorate the 8th.

58:00

the mid-80th anniversary of that

58:02

week. How wonderful. How

58:05

wonderful. Vastly different when

58:07

we were there. Well, of

58:09

course, because these bases were

58:12

little cities, weren't they? Little towns of

58:14

suddenly the sort of three and

58:16

a half thousand Americans all

58:19

descending on these little villages in Norfolk.

58:22

I mean, did you ever get to the pub or anything like that?

58:25

Well, on rare occasions, I'd get

58:27

there briefly, but mostly

58:31

any kind of celebrating I did, I had to

58:33

do with the officers club right on the base.

58:36

And your difficulties with your crew,

58:38

Lucky? I mean, did relationships

58:42

improve? Did you make friends with any of them? Not

58:45

really. I was closer

58:47

perhaps to some of the enlisted

58:50

crew than I ever was to the officers.

58:54

I never saw my pilot again

58:57

or either the navigator

58:59

or the bombardier. As

59:02

a matter of fact, the navigator, when

59:06

he returned to the States, he was

59:09

checked out on B-29s and

59:13

was flying with a friend of his and

59:15

they flew into a mountain in Montana.

59:18

And he was killed. So,

59:23

but any of

59:26

the reunions that I

59:28

didn't go to reunions initially,

59:31

and I didn't even talk about my wartime

59:33

experiences for 50 years. Did

59:36

you not? It wasn't something I wanted to

59:38

remember. It wasn't something that was

59:40

pleasant. It was

59:43

a closed chapter

59:45

as far as I was concerned. And

59:50

it wasn't until 1999 when

59:52

I was invited to be a

59:54

luncheon speaker in the

59:57

Air Symposium at the University of North

59:59

Texas. Texas that

1:00:02

I started reflecting

1:00:06

on my combat experience

1:00:10

and gradually realized

1:00:12

that I had an obligation to share it

1:00:15

with younger generations so that they

1:00:17

wouldn't forget what sacrifices really

1:00:20

had been made for the freedom

1:00:23

that they enjoy today. Wow, good for

1:00:25

you. I mean, when

1:00:27

you came back to the US, so that was presumably

1:00:30

end of February, beginning of March, something like that

1:00:32

in 1944, that was when you were back

1:00:34

in the US. Then you had this difficult time where

1:00:37

you weren't flying and struggling

1:00:39

a bit. I mean, how did you spend the

1:00:41

rest of the war? Well, ironically,

1:00:44

one of the things they did when they finally

1:00:46

did put me to work was

1:00:49

to send me to the instrument pilot

1:00:51

school in Bryan, Texas

1:00:54

to learn how to fly instruments. Right.

1:00:56

It's a night flight. I said, my God, I needed

1:00:58

that before I went to combat, not after.

1:01:02

And I was in the first class of returnees

1:01:06

to go through that. That was

1:01:08

the only instrument school they had.

1:01:10

And I

1:01:13

happened to have a fraternity

1:01:15

brother who was an instructor there. And

1:01:18

as it turned out,

1:01:21

I was I was pretty bitter about that

1:01:23

experience. But as

1:01:25

it turned out, it was one of my luckiest

1:01:27

days because that's where I met my future

1:01:30

wife, who I was

1:01:32

with for 71 years. Amazing.

1:01:35

So where were you in the summer

1:01:37

of 1945 when the global

1:01:40

war was finally over? Well,

1:01:42

I was in Miami. I was in

1:01:45

Tampa, Florida at McDill

1:01:47

Field. And by

1:01:50

that time, I had been transitioned

1:01:52

to be 29s and

1:01:55

was about to be shipped to the Pacific

1:01:58

to fight another war. right.

1:02:00

And when the atom bomb had

1:02:03

been dropped in August and,

1:02:05

and ended World War Two. And

1:02:08

that was that, you know, so you

1:02:10

didn't have to go, you were saved a second

1:02:13

or you must have been a relieved man. It

1:02:16

was indeed. Because

1:02:18

I'm now a raging pacifist. I

1:02:20

think war is totally futile

1:02:23

and, and stupid. Well,

1:02:26

it doesn't prove anything. And nobody learns

1:02:28

from it. Well, I'm afraid to say

1:02:30

you're, you're absolutely right. And,

1:02:33

and it's, it's horrible seeing what's

1:02:35

happening, isn't it in Ukraine, for example,

1:02:37

and the same old things

1:02:40

and same old scenes and some

1:02:42

of the photographs you see of Ukraine, you

1:02:44

know, it could be, I

1:02:47

don't know, you know, a scene from Normandy or

1:02:49

Italy or, you know, any of these places really,

1:02:52

or the Eastern Front and up in the

1:02:54

Second World War. I mean, it's just extraordinary,

1:02:57

you know, if you said commentary that

1:02:59

the human condition can't reconcile

1:03:01

their differences without

1:03:04

resorting to military conflict.

1:03:08

Yeah, absolutely. And, and after

1:03:11

the war, I mean, how long did you stay in the

1:03:13

in the in the US Army Air Force

1:03:16

until till you were out? Well, after

1:03:18

the war, they offered

1:03:20

me a regular commission because

1:03:22

the Air Force became a separate branch.

1:03:24

Yes. In 1947. And

1:03:30

I accepted that. And

1:03:32

then they informed me

1:03:34

that I could go back to college and

1:03:37

get my degree with a still

1:03:40

on flying status.

1:03:43

And so I applied to Stanford

1:03:45

and was accepted, but I never got any

1:03:48

orders. And I finally

1:03:50

flew down to the Air Force University

1:03:52

that was administering the program

1:03:54

and asked them why and they

1:03:56

said, Well, how old are you? And I said,

1:03:59

Well, I'm only And they

1:04:01

said, well, you know, we have an age

1:04:03

limit of 32 in this program. And

1:04:05

I said, yeah, so what? And they said,

1:04:08

well, so we've got so many ahead of you

1:04:10

that if they don't get in, they

1:04:12

lose out. And

1:04:14

I said, well, I understand that and

1:04:16

so much for them, but when

1:04:19

am I, how long am I going to have to wait

1:04:22

to get in the pipeline? And

1:04:24

they said, well, according to our calculations,

1:04:26

just before your 32nd birthday. So

1:04:31

I said, Oh my, you mean I've got

1:04:33

to wait another six years. I've been

1:04:35

out of college for six years now.

1:04:37

And that would be 12 years before I

1:04:39

got back to the books. And I flew

1:04:42

back to, um, eighth Air Force

1:04:44

headquarters, uh, in, uh,

1:04:46

Fort Worth, where I was stationed

1:04:49

at the time and realized

1:04:52

that I could go back to school,

1:04:55

uh, currently under

1:04:57

the GI bill as a civilian.

1:05:00

Yep. So I resigned my commission

1:05:03

then and ultimately went

1:05:05

back to college. I didn't

1:05:07

go to Stanford. I went to the university of

1:05:09

Denver and, um, not

1:05:13

studying chemical engineering. And, and,

1:05:15

uh, yes, I've took business and pre-law.

1:05:18

Right. I didn't go back to chemical engineering.

1:05:22

But then I ended up, uh, in a, uh,

1:05:25

real estate development business, developing

1:05:27

mall type shopping centers. Right.

1:05:31

And that's what I did as my, uh,

1:05:34

profession for until

1:05:36

about 1986 when I finally retired. Amazing.

1:05:41

And you, and, and children

1:05:43

had family. I only have one. I

1:05:45

have a daughter who is married to a pediatric neurosurgeon.

1:05:50

Wow. Uh, and, uh, two grandchildren

1:05:52

and four great grandchildren.

1:05:54

Amazing. Well, it's quite a life you've had lucky. And

1:06:00

And I mean, you said that you didn't

1:06:02

want to talk about it until 1999, when you got invited

1:06:06

to make this address, and you feel it's

1:06:08

a sense of duty. I mean, I feel incredibly

1:06:10

touched that you've taken the time to talk

1:06:12

to me today. I hope it hasn't

1:06:15

been too painful for you. I feel awful

1:06:17

making you go through this again. Well,

1:06:20

I'm happy to do it at any time. And

1:06:23

it's a privilege

1:06:26

to meet you and talk with

1:06:28

you, because I know of your reputation

1:06:31

as an author and an

1:06:34

authority, really, on World War

1:06:36

II. You've really studied

1:06:38

it more minutely than most

1:06:41

people, and I respect

1:06:44

that. And so it's

1:06:46

a privilege to meet with

1:06:48

you and talk with you and share

1:06:50

experiences. Well, I can

1:06:53

assure you, Lucky, that the privilege

1:06:55

and the honor is all mine. But

1:06:59

I can't thank you enough for talking

1:07:01

to us today. I mean, I know

1:07:03

that every single one of our listeners

1:07:06

is just going to be absolutely spellbound. It's

1:07:08

amazing talking to you. Well, I'm

1:07:11

just extremely fortunate, and thank

1:07:13

God that I'm still here. Yeah, well,

1:07:15

you know, and it's amazing. You obviously still enjoy

1:07:17

life and you embrace the

1:07:20

modern world we live in. I mean, it's impressive

1:07:23

how quick you are on email and all these sort

1:07:25

of things, and you manage your own tech

1:07:27

at the other end of this conversation. So

1:07:30

I mean, hats off to you, Lucky, really. I mean, it's

1:07:33

absolutely amazing. Well, everyone who's been

1:07:35

listening to that, I mean, what a treat. What

1:07:38

an amazing man. And

1:07:41

thank you all for listening. Thank you very much

1:07:43

to John. Lucky, Lucky do. 101 years

1:07:46

young. Lucky, we all feel very lucky

1:07:48

to have heard your story. No pun intended. Thank

1:07:50

you all for listening. Thank you, Jim. Cheerio

1:07:52

for now. Thank you so much. God

1:07:55

bless.

1:08:01

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1:08:03

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1:08:06

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1:08:08

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1:08:10

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1:08:14

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1:08:17

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1:08:19

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