0:03

welcome

0:23

to the you are not so smart

0:25

podcast, episode

0:28

236

0:46

this is the first episode

0:48

of the you and also smart podcast to come

0:50

out after my new book how

0:52

minds change is out

0:54

there it has been released it is

0:56

a real book

0:58

the real you might think would be

1:00

after all this time working on it

1:02

you you can can hold in in your hands it's

1:04

printed on paper with

1:06

ink and it's available

1:09

wherever every get get to your books and i

1:11

i really appreciate who has reached out

1:13

and said very nice things about about

1:16

this is also the first episode

1:18

of this like has to come out

1:21

after the us supreme court ruling that

1:23

struck down roe versus wade

1:25

making abortion illegal in many

1:27

states so that

1:29

makes the book more

1:32

timely than i expected to be given

1:35

so much of it deals with the

1:38

political landscape the state of ever

1:40

stomach crisis and information chaos

1:42

we are content with everyday then

1:45

it focuses deeply on how

1:47

to change minds on issues like

1:49

this originally

1:51

i plan for this episode to just be an interview

1:53

with chris clearfield as the interviewer

1:56

asked me about the book that's still

1:58

in here as at the india the

2:01

the after that ruling i thought i'd add

2:03

a reading of an excerpt that's relevant

2:05

to this moment extremely relevant to smaller

2:08

that is up this is from

2:11

chapter two how minds

2:13

tunes right tell you all

2:15

about my time at leadership lab

2:17

and los angeles the political action

2:19

wing of the los angeles lgbt

2:21

center who spent years

2:23

recording their conversations at people's front

2:25

doors discussing difficult

2:29

contentious wedge issues according

2:31

more than fifteen thousand of them on video

2:34

they use those videos to ab

2:36

test their approach keeping woodwork

2:39

the runway what didn't until

2:41

they zeroed in on persuasion

2:43

technique that so new and so effective

2:46

that scientists have been flying

2:48

out there for a while to study

2:50

what's going on there the

2:52

papers they produce the really advanced

2:54

or understanding of persuasion itself

2:58

the lab developed a technique

3:00

through pursuing the goal of changing

3:03

people's intention to vote for or

3:05

against laws that would affect the lives

3:07

of lgbtq people with

3:09

the hope of reducing prejudice

3:12

the harm the doing that

3:15

they develop something called deep canvassing

3:18

the method by which you approach a person

3:20

one on one have another friend

3:22

or into non judgmental

3:24

he inviting a person to open up about the

3:26

real feelings about the issue help

3:29

them discover conflicting emotions beliefs

3:31

and ideas and attitudes which they may

3:33

not be completely consciously aware

3:36

then by modeling vulnerability

3:39

sharing their own stories the

3:41

asking questions they

3:43

listen their way the

3:46

changing the other person's mind many

3:49

of other techniques write about the book it's

3:52

about opening and and holding space

3:54

for introspection medical condition for

3:56

the other person the bit like

3:58

certain therapeutic model the

4:01

motivational interviewing there's

4:03

a bit like the socratic method both

4:05

would fall under the category of technique

4:07

rebuttal my topic

4:09

about which is more like a debate

4:11

where people face off against each other cherry

4:14

pick facts and talking points as if

4:17

they're behind like turns five audience looking

4:19

to when looking to defeat their opponent

4:23

technique rebuttal puts you in the other person

4:25

shoulder to shoulder exploring

4:27

each other's reasoning and motivations

4:31

how does excerpt from about to read? comes

4:33

from a visit, in

4:35

which i was was running the camera while steve the

4:37

line the deep canvasser spoke

4:40

with people about abortion rights and

4:43

at this point the book, the lab

4:45

suspected their technique could be used

4:47

on any topic but they

4:50

had yet to hit on the best way to apply

4:52

it to change minds about abortion among

4:54

people opposed to as the galaxy

4:57

so our mission as

4:59

we went out door door in los angeles success

5:02

or failure just

5:04

to record our efforts for their later

5:06

review to learn something

5:10

surprising happened that

5:12

introduction here's the excerpt

5:14

from our minds change not

5:17

from the audio book reading this

5:20

right now

5:21

just this podcast

5:48

after full day of frustration his

5:50

back to the son and his shirt served

5:53

steve finally made breakthrough the

5:55

last house on our route

5:58

martha seventy two that

6:00

she was strongly opposed to abortion

6:03

then

6:04

tried politely returned however she had been

6:06

spending her saturday before we interrupted

6:08

he said steve couldn't come

6:10

inside because of her protective dog a

6:13

common deflection stephen later tell me

6:17

the told her not to worry they didn't want

6:19

to coincide this wanted to ask

6:21

them questions and hear opinions

6:24

martha softened agreed to share them the

6:28

basque on abortion rights we're

6:31

she saw herself on scale of

6:33

zero the tip the

6:35

role being a believe there should be no

6:37

legal access to abortion in anyway

6:40

and

6:40

and 10 being support for complete

6:42

full, easy access

6:44

without hesitation martha

6:47

said she was was a a five steve

6:51

raised and made a mark

6:53

while nodding when the asked martha

6:55

why that number felt right to her martha

6:58

told us everyone had the right to their

7:00

own bodies but she had had a problem with

7:02

women who quote have

7:04

one after the the other people

7:06

tell me me later they had learned of over

7:08

our many conversations that reasons

7:11

justifications and explanations

7:13

for maintaining ones existing opinion can

7:16

be endless spawning like heads

7:18

of a hydra the cut one

7:20

away more would appear tickets

7:22

place did canvassers

7:24

want to avoid that unwinnable

7:26

site the do that

7:28

they allow a person's justifications to

7:30

remain unchallenged they nod

7:33

and listen the idea

7:35

is to move forward make

7:37

the person feel hurt and respected avoid

7:40

arguing over person's conclusions instead

7:44

work to discover the motivations

7:46

behind them that

7:48

end next step is to

7:50

evoke a person's emotional response

7:52

to the issue he said

7:54

he would love to get martha's opinion about

7:56

a video then pulled out his phone

7:58

of the clip already playing

8:02

the woman told camera she got

8:04

pregnant and twenty two despite using

8:06

birth control he said she

8:08

knew right away she wanted an abortion

8:11

didn't want to spend the rest for life with

8:13

a man she was dating he

8:16

wanted a further education horse

8:18

she had kids martha

8:20

seemed the uneasy revoking

8:24

negative emotions like this campuses

8:26

as people if their opinion has changed

8:29

they really ask them where they are on scale

8:32

of zero to ten sampling

8:34

their newly salient feelings people

8:37

often movie numbers mother

8:39

said she was definitely still a

8:41

five he had moved

8:44

the asked her why this

8:47

you didn't the after what

8:49

the video mirror think he

8:51

said he believed woman should discuss her feelings

8:54

about kids with her partner before

8:56

they had sex they

8:58

should have use protection the

9:00

training the city was here in conversation

9:03

that deep camus or must perform their most

9:06

delicate work even

9:08

a person's ratings don't move the

9:10

camels her nose people have begun to think

9:12

about their emotions and wonder why

9:14

do i feel this way after

9:17

a twinge of unresolved introspection

9:20

people become highly motivated sort

9:22

out their feelings they will

9:24

didn't produce new set of justifications

9:26

weaker perhaps than before this

9:29

encourages a conversation instead

9:32

of arguing the camels or listens

9:34

helping the builder untangle their thoughts

9:36

by asking questions and reflecting

9:38

back their answers to make certain they're

9:41

hearing them correctly the

9:43

people feel heard further

9:45

articulate their opinions the

9:48

often begin to question

9:51

it's like we're solving a mystery together

9:53

stephen later tell me there's

9:56

people explain themselves they begin produce

9:58

fresh insights the why feel one

10:00

way or another this

10:02

indicates they've engaged in active

10:04

processing instead defending

10:08

the begin contemplating once

10:10

person contemplating they often

10:12

produce their own counter arguments the

10:15

newfound ambivalence washes over

10:17

them if enough counter

10:19

argument stack up the balance

10:22

may tip in favor of change

10:25

the moved the next stage according

10:27

to the training if he could have a memory

10:30

from her own life that contradicted the

10:32

reasoning she had shared she might

10:34

notice the conflict with him having to pointed

10:36

out the remain

10:38

private the she wouldn't feel like steve

10:41

was challenging her to

10:43

be challenging yourself and

10:46

if through his support behind the conflicting thoughts

10:48

that favored the opinion he was there to champion

10:51

she might shift in the direction he wanted

10:54

the the training emphasized is a

10:56

delicate maneuver because she might resolve

10:58

the conflict in the other direction by

11:00

further justifying existing position

11:02

instead we've

11:05

asked if martha hit ever talk

11:07

to anyone openly about abortion she

11:10

said he had talked about it with her

11:12

daughters he urged them begin

11:14

birth control then

11:16

asked if there been any unplanned

11:18

pregnancies and martha's family and

11:21

he revealed their had then

11:24

asked then she had first heard of

11:26

abortion he said in

11:28

twenties how

11:31

did it come up i

11:33

knew a girl had abortion by

11:35

someone who didn't know what they were doing

11:37

artist there

11:40

was stephen been looking

11:42

for the real lived

11:44

experience one there was especially

11:46

laden with emotion we've

11:49

asked a few more questions and slowly

11:51

drew from martha a fifty year old

11:53

memory of friend who came to

11:55

her house in desperate need of a

11:57

doctor the was bleeding

12:00

the after a botched backdoor

12:02

surgery martha

12:04

filled in the details then

12:06

soberly added didn't

12:08

have a choice the

12:11

friend couldn't turn family they

12:13

would have to salander that

12:15

was fifty years ago explain

12:18

he just didn't do that the

12:20

friend new martha was more open minded

12:22

the most so she reached out to her

12:24

for help he

12:26

listened providing space for martha to tell

12:28

the story at length and then drew

12:30

the conversation to a close by asking

12:33

a series of leading questions reflecting

12:35

back our friend didn't

12:38

have a choice the martha

12:41

open minded he

12:43

asked had martha ever judged

12:45

her friend for what she did do

12:47

think her friend had been irresponsible and

12:50

so on martha

12:52

explained that she just

12:54

didn't want to die then

12:58

she told us with all the access

13:00

people have birth control everyone

13:02

should be more responsible these days the

13:05

agreed the added that in a

13:07

heated moment people make mistakes

13:10

the training they called this modeling

13:12

vulnerability the idea

13:15

was that if you open up several

13:17

there the told her as

13:19

young gay man he didn't take proper

13:21

precautions his first time you

13:23

know he was well aware of dangers he

13:27

asked if martha had ever been less than careful

13:29

because something like that she

13:31

said i'm seventy two years old

13:34

and i'm not nun they

13:37

lashed together then

13:39

martha apologize because couldn't stand

13:41

any longer the

13:44

lab was still developing the script for having

13:46

conversations about abortion so in the

13:48

materials provided there were no further instructions

13:50

is how to proceed they've

13:53

been discussing transgender bathroom laws

13:55

the script would have had steve returned

13:57

to her initial concerns and ask if she

13:59

said felt that way you

14:01

might have experimented with something like that but

14:04

martha was visibly tired so steve

14:06

said before he left the he believed

14:08

all women should be able to choose for themselves

14:11

without judgment this

14:13

moment is heavily emphasize and training

14:16

the call it connecting on values we

14:19

wrap up you must make it clear where

14:21

you stand but in a way that shows

14:23

you and the other person may agree

14:25

on what is important at the core the discussion

14:28

if you've done your job the other side

14:30

will know that you aren't aiming for a fight the

14:33

position can be seen as just your perspective

14:37

perhaps one worth considering the

14:40

west where she stood on a scale now

14:43

the return i

14:45

think they should have access to that's

14:48

what they choose the

14:50

up to seven when

14:52

we departed to the curb so he could fill

14:54

out paperwork steve says he

14:56

was sure martha would vote for abortion

14:58

rights in the future should

15:01

be thinking about it it

15:03

wasn't a slam dunk that he

15:05

had discovered she was conflicted

15:08

he would notice things she didn't before he

15:11

moved from neutral to somewhat positive

15:14

that counted as changed the

15:17

time the change my

15:19

grow stronger change

15:21

minds yes yes yes minds how

15:23

change they ready for

15:25

water and shade and air conditioning

15:27

and we were too steve

15:29

new his truck was parked along curb hike

15:32

away the stood

15:34

stretched the students take that back

15:36

with their news the completed

15:38

for conversations with three people

15:41

the told them completed just one there

15:44

was good one waiting

15:47

lying the grass under the shade of apart

15:49

car princeton sweat

15:51

woozy and thursday and listening to

15:53

a mix of birds and dogs and lawnmowers

15:57

realized the full depth what stephen

15:59

mentioned here as we made

16:01

smalltalk walking in the suburban streets

16:03

of san gabriel this

16:06

is why most politicians don't do this

16:08

the the take lot

16:11

more effort than just shoving a flyer

16:13

and someone's hands or leading

16:15

it on our doorstep

16:34

be right

17:16

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18:00

minds how minds

18:03

change change

18:09

and now we returned to our

18:11

program

18:15

welcome back

18:17

to the show if you want more info

18:19

about deep canvassing up at links

18:21

the show notes and in description for this

18:24

episode in your podcast player also

18:27

in the show notes and description linked

18:29

my newsletter then

18:31

where he to long everyone kept

18:33

telling me i should be doing this i did started

18:36

god this him big you a son that's what

18:38

i'm calling it though i considered calling it

18:40

i think therefore i am wrong women

18:43

december you asian instead because

18:46

i like that word the and it's

18:48

also what brains do when confronted with

18:50

novelty and uncertainty the

18:52

usually think we now and

18:54

think understand to decent big you ate the ambiguous

18:58

i love that term especially

19:01

because it comes from reading comprehension the

19:03

act of deriving meaning through contexts

19:05

when word phrase or entire essay could

19:07

be interpreted in many different ways and

19:09

i've been receiving all your feedback on all the social

19:11

media channels especially on twitter you've been posting

19:14

pictures with a book please keep sending

19:16

that to me keeps in those pictures

19:18

i love that the end i've

19:21

been overwhelmed is just

19:23

tremendous and overwhelming you

19:25

never know with a book like this kinetic really

19:27

different approach to this how is

19:29

going to the received and

19:32

it's being recede really well thank you the

19:34

lot so many have you have been following

19:36

my progress writing the book preparing for

19:39

it to be released for years and i can

19:41

never fully express how much your courage

19:43

mint and support has really really meant to me thank

19:45

you thank you and and thank

19:47

you and to everyone who came

19:49

to the workshop if you preorder the

19:52

butcher get a ticket to a workshop and a

19:54

whole lot of people came to workshop it was

19:57

great to meet you all ice i stayed

19:59

for next to our and

20:01

nothing twenty minutes to do que and a

20:04

and that was the best part of it just

20:06

the questions but also just kind of hanging out

20:08

we all did

20:09

really enjoy death so yeah it's surreal

20:12

and credible and overwhelming i thank you

20:14

very very much the only what to

20:16

do here is to him the show over to chris clearfield

20:18

who i had on this show

20:20

back during the height of covert talk about

20:22

his book meltdown why are systems

20:25

fail while we can do about it i

20:27

loved that interview that he offered the

20:29

switch roles with my own book was out

20:31

i agreed and here we are he's

20:34

a graduate of harvard where he studied

20:36

physics in biochemistry that jumped

20:38

into finance and technology and and

20:40

problem solving and and flying airplanes

20:43

in you know that he became fascinated

20:46

with the complex systems

20:48

and how they interact with other complex systems

20:50

in ways that are difficult to predict the

20:52

most you really know what variables

20:55

are that are messing with stuff which is a big

20:58

part of how minds change especially in last

21:00

two chapters regular network science

21:02

and how cascades of the

21:05

leaves change attitude change spread

21:07

across institutions and even nations chris

21:10

the way speak spanish swedish and german that

21:13

hails from north carolina so

21:15

i felt a lot of kindred feelings in

21:17

his southern raised

21:20

see really obsessed auto died act

21:22

ways i was very happy to switch roles for

21:24

the rest the show and with that here's

21:27

the interview eno or but er yeah

21:30

i almost midnight we

21:32

been talking for about forty five minutes with

21:34

a terrible storm rolled in and

21:37

like the branches and things were hitting the sides

21:40

of the windows were i'm recording this

21:42

and eventually we tried to

21:44

push through it but it knocked up electricity

21:46

and so the decided pick

21:48

back up after a couple days and

21:51

where we picked up his where the audio

21:53

starts okay here

21:56

is my interview this

21:59

clear it is the one doing the interviewing about

22:02

my new book how mine's

22:05

checked

22:34

let's you and aren't

22:37

, so

22:40

a grainy you are saying and

22:42

by you were saying i mean before

22:44

the storm all the ago your for the storm

22:47

role than and you lost power and we had

22:49

to postpone the the

22:51

completion this interview you are talking

22:53

incidentally about being

22:56

in natural disasters and that

22:58

kind of shaping your view of trust so

23:01

significant pick it up the hair the hair pick up

23:03

their yes i actually strangely remember

23:05

what i was talking about i think

23:07

because i was

23:09

remembering that kate

23:12

starboard yes the researcher caped starboard

23:15

when it comes to

23:17

there's this whole question of book as to whether or

23:19

not we're in post truth the

23:21

world ryan where the chapter titles his post

23:24

truth that's because when

23:26

spent time with a

23:28

former nine eleven truth or i

23:31

was presented with this thing

23:33

that bill almost like he had ruined

23:36

my entire thesis as was forming

23:38

which was why

23:41

facts don't work on people which

23:44

the started be a question that i couldn't resolve

23:46

because i spent time with charlie

23:49

reads who among

23:51

the truth is that went on the conspiracy

23:54

road trip the only one who

23:56

changed his mind because

23:58

at least from his specter when first

24:00

met it was the facts were

24:02

convincing to of which

24:04

was strange because everybody else

24:06

i spoke to all the other persuasion people

24:09

realize yeah but don't don't like change

24:11

people's night or tools our minds

24:13

of facts that's not going worse

24:15

and they were what is

24:17

this person who did she's or mind when the facts

24:19

were presented to them and it

24:21

was one is nice moments where it turned out or

24:23

we will turns as the the question

24:26

is lot more complicated than i was framing

24:28

a like i was even asking the right question i was assuming

24:31

a lot of things and creating these

24:33

categories that weren't useful to be

24:35

it turns out and we get to it at a

24:37

later turns out that the it's

24:39

more about conclusions and conclusions

24:41

can be all sorts of things thoughts feelings behaviors

24:44

concepts of what is is not a fact

24:47

and , all sorts of things that motivators to

24:49

reach those conclusions and

24:51

changing people's environments their motivations

24:54

will change whether not they

24:56

will feel that something is compelling are

24:58

not of their if you're feeling of certainty

25:00

will be affected by it is turns out

25:02

whenever you walk up to someone or meet

25:04

him on the internet and save hey here's a

25:06

fact change your mind or that doesn't

25:09

have much of an impact on their motivations the

25:11

motivations that led them to assume that

25:13

that was or was not you in first place

25:16

rain and and i just wanna jump

25:18

in your cause guess i think with you i think what

25:20

you're saying is there says it's

25:22

deeply profound here at and

25:25

the reason that charlie changes his mind and in

25:27

fact some the reasons that the other people is

25:29

in there in your book change their

25:31

mind is and put it

25:33

in my words and then you can desert you're correct

25:36

or build on it's because they

25:38

feel connected with other people and they feel

25:40

safe and

25:42

the and the or social

25:45

context change it exam

25:47

or they think he'll listen to so yeah

25:49

so so

25:51

he gets away with this this

25:53

this relates to cut all of us relates this

25:55

the hardest thing about reading this book

25:57

was started to wander

25:59

into the philosophical territory

26:02

and i would get over and over

26:04

philosophical concepts then

26:06

i would

26:07

start to feel like well no need to go look over

26:09

here and neurological concepts do it

26:11

maybe i should go into psychological costs

26:14

and it it started do become

26:16

this vast world

26:19

of oh none of this can make sense in

26:21

isolation it all has to be put into

26:23

context and unfortunately the context

26:26

started to look like i need to explain

26:29

the mystery of consciousness itself which you

26:31

can't do so this the celsius

26:33

why is it goes in many places but there's

26:35

only that connects here which is the

26:37

great researcher kate starboard talks

26:40

dog

26:41

when we it suits us

26:43

researchers are crisis management

26:45

and researches things she calls

26:47

information voids what

26:49

happens is after a natural disaster

26:52

or after some sort of

26:54

horrible of to like a a ship sinking or a

26:56

building burning or something where it's

26:59

not clear what we ought to do next

27:01

and the go to

27:03

information sources are disrupted

27:05

things that cut of meat out information

27:08

and her in a room in reliable consistent

27:10

manner like a news source at a cable

27:12

news channel twitter something like that's not

27:14

useful to you right away especially

27:17

if you've lost power or

27:19

the

27:20

the the streets are a mess

27:22

in their trees everywhere so what usually happens in environment

27:25

like that as you you switch

27:27

to they trust

27:29

base modulating

27:32

sort of parameter you you

27:34

are tied trading whether or not

27:36

to take action

27:37

based off of trust cues instead

27:39

of off of the traditional key is that

27:41

you're using before so he can imagine

27:44

say it's right after a tornado

27:47

and someone you're looking

27:49

you're asking someone heywood when is this going to happen

27:51

a where can find this thing or or what's

27:53

going to happen next and the

27:55

my tells you that will

27:58

i heard this have uttered this can be this it

28:00

can be that and if you notice to somebody

28:02

you've never met before you will probably

28:04

ask where did you hear that which

28:06

is very similar to what happens when you get into argument

28:08

with someone online i didn't believe you are

28:11

you don't believe them you'll say well what are your sources

28:13

because what you're looking for is to need i

28:16

need to determine trust right now and then

28:18

you are completely ambiguous interview

28:21

be but if you call something out that i i

28:23

can sort of gets in tucson i can

28:25

say okay well that's trustworthy whereas if

28:28

it's firefighter who tells you some

28:30

information you will module that your trust

28:32

differently than you would it was just a stranger

28:35

they did like a family member you

28:37

old based on what do you know

28:39

about their areas of expertise

28:41

if you're evil family member who is an electrician

28:44

the us when the power's gonna come back on your

28:46

your module your trust differently than if it's the

28:49

your the family member who it

28:51

works in finance let's say the certain

28:54

place so the totally useless

28:57

in that is the method environment med list

28:59

until now firemen well said well rights

29:01

a lesser till you know something about a

29:03

is the banks are arg are going to come

29:05

back to this random search this all this

29:07

something that week com that would that

29:09

is

29:10

this is added to me some as something that we

29:12

are born with he gets shaped

29:14

it's very nature nurture thing that goes

29:17

, to these concepts of her argumentation

29:20

and are deliberation how we

29:22

have these these structures that

29:24

that already primed for this disorder

29:26

situations youth are three

29:28

people on a hill facing back to back kind of thing

29:30

where you trying to develop a worldview and that world

29:33

you is

29:34

deeply affected by trust

29:36

use am we

29:39

have entered into an environment thanks to

29:41

and information revolution that is moving

29:43

very quick and is

29:45

changing so rapidly and the

29:47

revolution does keep spinning that in

29:50

moments of high anxiety

29:52

which we find ourselves within thanks to

29:54

the just the happenstance of politics

29:56

and the world against they're taking place

29:58

coupled with

30:00

new information ecosystems that are difficult

30:02

to get our our heads around the

30:04

often enter into these situations

30:07

that are very very similar to what happens

30:09

after a natural disaster where we talked to

30:11

hide to resolve our uncertainty and her

30:13

anxiety make sense of the situation

30:16

based off of trust

30:18

because the information gatekeepers

30:20

in the people who have authority

30:22

have sort of laughs in some ways are

30:24

they policemen right polluted

30:26

by they also

30:28

are part of this disruptive period

30:30

of time in history and so it makes sense

30:33

oddly them in an environment like that

30:36

people start to group up based

30:38

off of trust and distrust cues

30:40

and that rate that turned out be a very

30:43

big part of what was going

30:45

on with charlie was going to with all the conspiratorial

30:47

groups that i hung out with affordable yeah

30:50

and i

30:51

the first all think we should have agreed ahead

30:53

of time with we did knocked them for to every time

30:56

someone someone said information ecosystem

30:58

we should taken shot at assess assess as

31:00

i'm edo i mean the

31:02

word that comes to my mind is is kind of

31:04

is sort primitive and i'm

31:07

and think as you were talking about it's like oh

31:09

of course like this is why yet so

31:12

comfortable for people to

31:15

lean into their

31:18

new york times or fox news

31:20

or kind of whatever it is they lean into

31:22

because as you just said we are in as high

31:24

anxiety state and there are these kinds

31:26

of mean feel

31:29

like there's these information boys even know

31:31

paradoxically it's it's kind of information

31:33

abundant isn't totally information of hundreds

31:35

that's true but but that's also what happens the

31:38

upper natural disasters like it's

31:41

there's information coming at you from every direction that and you yeah

31:43

you're not you're like oh need to determine

31:46

how much of this i can i can disregard

31:48

and how much this should pay attention to and then

31:50

of that which pay attention to how much of it if

31:53

you're into a a a a rumor

31:55

ecosystem rumors become pretty

31:57

valuable all of sudden and you

32:00

know the the typical afternoon on twitter is

32:02

something like that and

32:04

so it feels good to say you know what i trust

32:07

this group of people want to hang out with

32:09

that group of people or so early he

32:11

said lean into a source that you could

32:13

did you have traditionally depended upon

32:15

this is the dress i mean i'm just i'm looking

32:17

my notes and and

32:19

the the researchers call

32:21

this substantial uncertainty and burglary

32:24

and uses his experience to create illusions

32:26

of what ought to be there but isn't and see this

32:28

as you know that's the thing about the to dress

32:30

that was so nice and i because

32:33

we last spoke for days ago i honestly can't

32:35

member how much we've talked about this i don't like to

32:37

penalise said that

32:40

but since the dresses this perfectly

32:42

kind of it perfectly

32:45

because it's a political because

32:47

it's kind of totally insubstantial

32:51

it's actually this perfect lens through

32:54

which to view the kind

32:56

the we the brain works because we're not layering

32:58

mike we ate it's not like the sneakers

33:01

were snark start bellies teachers are good

33:03

and and plane belly speeches are in it's like it's

33:05

blue and gold or whatever the other colors are

33:07

so it's like just this kind of the

33:09

and it created lot charge which

33:12

i think therefore gives this this underlying

33:14

insight because we don't have to filter it through

33:16

any kind of group or political lab yes

33:19

it's a that

33:20

they are the reason i mean i've never

33:22

thought the dress would leave me here but it did

33:25

in actually i have to think pesca why should

33:27

michael college forever and ever never because

33:29

they were so adamant that know you should come

33:32

out here she comes in while you and see what we're doing

33:34

i'm telling you this is what your

33:36

trying to figure out which and i'd i

33:39

wanted when i was writing the book really wanted there

33:41

to be what do your way to get

33:43

reader into talking about the

33:45

very the would have wanted go

33:47

all the way down and your arms and built up built

33:49

up from there at really show how does a mine

33:52

change not a new persuasion

33:54

would would we'd get persuasion at some point but wanted

33:56

talk about the our mine changes

33:59

consistently second by second day by day

34:01

and the night and why you would look back

34:03

on your old diary and go i don't agree with

34:05

anything this this person wrote like

34:08

i wanted to talk about that but at

34:10

the level what's going on a brain

34:12

and i could have just opened chapter

34:14

by saying and now we're talking about brains but

34:16

i there's so much the book was on the ground

34:19

i wanted there to be

34:20

something on the ground got us into it

34:23

and it couldn't have been as more incredible gifts than

34:25

the incredible neuroscientist said

34:28

in why you who were who had they been

34:30

studying the dress and by extension

34:32

really started develop a model of what

34:35

the underlying framework of disagreement

34:37

itself which they call surf pad

34:39

because they're very cheeky they love coming up with terms

34:41

like that right surf at

34:43

is a substantial

34:45

uncertainty the

34:47

presence of ram aside fork prior assumptions

34:50

leads to substantial disagreement and that's

34:52

a d or dead year's eve you if you draw

34:55

line in above the line are

34:57

all the experiences that you've had and also

34:59

the brain that you came in the world with all

35:02

the nature nurture that leads up to as a

35:04

certain moments in the presence of

35:06

something that's ambiguous are uncertain

35:08

you use all those prior things

35:10

to read some level

35:12

of certainty or to do some big you ate the ambiguous

35:15

and never becomes some sort of assumption that you

35:17

used to make sense world then

35:19

when you are facing something

35:21

that is ambiguous with a with a pier

35:24

you may resolve your uncertainty

35:26

differently than they do the

35:28

dress is great example of that because the

35:31

dress was black and blue

35:34

for some people and golden white for

35:36

others and if you experienced it that

35:38

way that is just what happened to you had no

35:40

choice in matter is just was the truth

35:42

of your perceptions and

35:46

if you were to get into an argument to someone about

35:48

that then you are seeking

35:50

to prove that you are right and they were

35:52

wrong think they were seeing something that they

35:54

shouldn't be seen you

35:56

would miss out on an opportunity for

35:58

to to try to have some sort dynamic

36:01

reed said hey a wonder why we see

36:03

this differently and then investigate it

36:05

together with the acknowledgement

36:07

that the moon what they call

36:09

is why you cognitive empathy the empathy that

36:11

you can't help but resolve the way

36:13

you're doing it i can't help of result of

36:15

the way i'm doing it

36:17

that if we're doing that differently

36:19

than maybe neither one of us is correct

36:21

which is a very or is it it's

36:23

so bizarre me think

36:25

about the way we argue online

36:27

or in very charge political environments

36:29

where that's , what we were

36:31

we do and we we approach the other person i'm

36:34

everly ross who are is passed

36:36

away since i interviewed him the great psychologist

36:38

the ross he's to do conflict resolution

36:42

the

36:42

israel palestine or overweight

36:45

people would meet and said it's never in

36:47

forty years of doing that work had

36:49

he ever

36:51

met anyone who was interested in what the other

36:53

side thought before they started

36:55

up the proceedings they always were

36:57

concerned with whether or not they would be able to

36:59

get their arguments out they wanted

37:01

by sure and that that that their side

37:03

would be seen it decided

37:06

the feeling that i need you to

37:09

see things my way because if you to see things

37:11

my way you will naturally agree with me with

37:13

his and in the dressing

37:15

situation if you argued

37:18

and pascal city is he said he didn't think

37:20

it was unreal are weird to assume

37:22

that you could form political camp around

37:24

one these particular perceptions if in weird

37:26

or things have happened in history so

37:30

you wouldn't miss out on any can use whatever metaphor

37:32

you you prefer the higher

37:34

truth of the deeper truth you would miss out on

37:36

that you'd miss out on opportunity say

37:38

oh well this actually of we invest he does

37:40

this explains why we see stuff would

37:43

weirdly at it turns out that the actual the

37:46

things happening there is called of the

37:48

a discounting the the lumen and are the aluminum

37:51

the when something is overexposed

37:54

without our knowledge without our permission the brain

37:57

will reduce the overexposure

38:00

they wouldn't try to make an assumption is too

38:02

the color of the overexposure the nature

38:04

the over exposure is that rest was

38:06

taken with a bad phone in a ah

38:09

cloudy day in a weird angle

38:12

and it was overexposed it

38:14

was not clear as to what

38:16

do ever exposure was the image that we were all looking

38:18

at on the internet wasn't clear what the over exposure was

38:21

so some people's brains

38:23

assumed the over exposure was sunlight

38:25

some people's brains assume the over exposure

38:27

was artificial light sunlight

38:29

has more stuff in blue spectrum so they

38:31

took out the blue artificial

38:34

i has more stuff in the the

38:37

yellow spectrum it and took up the

38:39

yellow incandescent lights incandescent

38:41

the result is something different that different that

38:43

the surf pad the the experiences

38:46

that person it had previously that experience

38:48

to that moment

38:49

working more in conditions were there were lots

38:51

of windows getting up earlier vs people

38:53

who get up later or or work for indoors

38:56

that had created these visual

38:58

priors they were unaware of the only

39:01

experience the result

39:03

of all that the net lead

39:05

to disagreement and disagreement the

39:07

him both those our say in the book this is before

39:10

all the other stuff that we've disagreed

39:12

about starting around two thousand

39:14

and fifteen sixteen and ,

39:17

or disagreement and fifty guests

39:19

because of i suppose said this was the argument that

39:21

broke the internet would seem so wait

39:23

didn't in restaurants doesn't exist

39:26

exist we i'm in actually broke twitter

39:28

and like that ignore through ah quickly

39:30

right the i'm i remember

39:32

the evening news in my

39:34

rural home town like they would come

39:36

they can honestly and now you're the hook ticker

39:38

at the end rights and now the

39:40

dress like what do you see any they

39:43

argued that it is it's

39:45

for the book i i win in of what's to

39:47

bonds youtube videos of local news broadcasts

39:50

and that was very common they would actually

39:52

get like until go canada and a

39:54

tiff they would do the lights are you crazy

39:57

of course it does votes romans am

39:59

know id so it's a great a

40:02

it's such great example of of served

40:04

pad and that you can there's no difference

40:06

between this having a political disagreement were

40:09

is

40:09

your life experiences your values

40:11

your motivations

40:13

the culture that you've come up with in

40:15

the arguments you've had leading up to this moment

40:18

that the camp that you find

40:20

yourself within and all the motivations ago that

40:23

lead you to

40:24

without your permission without your knowledge

40:27

arrive at these emotional

40:29

reactions to certain issues

40:32

and whenever the you that happens

40:34

you start to go on a sort of cherry picking

40:36

evidence hunt and we

40:39

see it would whatever is happening now gonna be

40:41

a thing with are currently as we're recording

40:43

this there's debate over gun control previous

40:46

to this was there all sorts of things are immigration

40:49

and immigration million other issues

40:51

other insurrection whatever is you

40:54

often yet to have this is a is

40:56

so difficult do this but dude need

40:59

cognitive empathy for the fact that people the

41:01

other side of this disagreement can't help but yeah

41:03

the way they feel about it and if you enter

41:05

to namic you want to win and they it in

41:07

you want them to lose and want to win and they do same

41:10

thing you will both miss out on an opportunity

41:12

discover that maybe you're both right in some ways

41:14

both wrong in some ways and that's something that push

41:16

for all throughout the the but

41:19

well and i wouldn't and talked little about this

41:21

offline but i want to bring this into the

41:23

context of the work i do which is not

41:25

in i mean it's in small people

41:27

at a full context but it's all around

41:30

i work with leaders and leadership seems who are changing

41:33

other organizations work and

41:36

the the phrase

41:39

that i often use his i call it

41:41

practical empathy which i mean it's kind of

41:43

very similar to what we're talking about which

41:45

is just like you

41:47

know where i am often his

41:49

situation where a leader is frustrated

41:52

because the people that the

41:54

work with the people that they're trying to get to

41:56

change are resisting their

41:58

chains in what

42:00

are the things i talk about as just like hey

42:03

mike resistance is really useful

42:05

like a lot of the changes that you have had

42:07

to weather in your career happened

42:09

kind of dumb and so like

42:12

when we are resisting seems

42:14

you know what we think is man

42:16

person is trying oppose the some me they just don't

42:18

get it they don't get my work they don't

42:21

understand like you know complexity

42:23

of my job or the donor cena pressure i'm under

42:25

or sister asked me to do something

42:27

i don't like it and so you know we

42:29

don't experience what we do is resistance

42:31

but when someone's doing it the us flight the

42:34

and their reducing their obsession is simply

42:36

well they're just like

42:38

us on the inside right so so

42:40

if you just take step back the

42:43

you can then start a start to get

42:45

curious about and my know what

42:47

what is going on here what is

42:50

you know what are their

42:52

underlying believes what the see that i'm

42:54

i'm not seeing and i

42:56

think actually you to we

42:58

do the way that i work is very similar

43:01

to the

43:03

no discussion you have around

43:06

st epistemology which epistemology just like circle

43:08

a again the that don't lose

43:10

your thought but the thing that pops my head is like

43:12

see a six is like this

43:14

makes me wish i'd had talked to before i

43:16

finished mascot because they are

43:19

every time see it that someone

43:21

who was doing work in a in way they're

43:23

trying to resolve disagreements they're trying

43:25

to facilitate argumentation

43:28

and deliberation it

43:30

ends up being some of same truth

43:33

emergence in the end does not

43:35

what this last five and that's just that's

43:37

because brains work a certain way

43:39

and yes hidden therefore the

43:41

what if you ab test things

43:43

you will come out with similar process

43:45

as please continue

43:47

well you know you you you introduce

43:50

me to the phrase the book nave realism ruins

43:52

it is this belief that

43:56

you know we have a privilege we the well what

43:58

we see is actually is actually was going

44:00

on and i think way

44:03

the the two things about

44:05

that one is what

44:07

my training personally

44:10

as i've built up my skills

44:12

and my billie to do this work supporting

44:15

organizations as they changed supporting leaders

44:17

if they change the first step

44:20

is to stop

44:22

trying to collapse different perspectives

44:24

in a kind is suffering to for

44:26

symmetry rain i'm trying to light find

44:29

the capital t truth and search

44:31

your recognize the different people have different perspectives

44:35

the that's the first thing bit that kind

44:37

of comes to mind as i think about how

44:40

this worked get sick it's it's how these

44:42

ideas get their texture in in

44:46

you know the work that i encounter

44:49

lots of people doing every day like people

44:51

and organizations are trying do this all the time

44:53

and for me that ends up being little bit

44:55

less abstract than you know these

44:57

big political discussions here's

45:00

something is very close we're tied up with it when

45:02

they try to replicate

45:04

address they

45:07

did with my boat doing it with socks and

45:09

crocs and anybody listening to my purchases

45:12

her the sox are added two episodes of eggs

45:14

and to am i have , way

45:16

to hear that what they were what the based the short

45:18

sword as short as first that as they replicate address

45:20

by taking socks and crocs

45:23

crocs they took a pair of pink

45:25

crocs and white sox in the illuminate

45:27

them in very very green

45:30

overexposed light

45:32

which means that the crux

45:34

not reflect back in a green light and

45:36

the sox reflect tobacco bunch of greenlight

45:38

so when you look at a photograph

45:41

of this some people will

45:43

see that image and they will see

45:45

gray crocs green socks

45:47

and some people will see pink crocs and

45:50

white sox and the reason they

45:52

see it differently is because the older

45:54

you are the more experience

45:56

you've had with sox they're always

45:59

why in since they

46:01

got the elimination just right

46:03

level so that it's overexposed

46:05

in some people will try to subtract

46:08

the green and when you do that the brains

46:10

like oh i'm subtracting green which means the actual

46:12

color here's pink and it adds another olin and

46:14

you have no idea you're doing this the

46:16

thing that is related what you're saying

46:18

is one

46:21

group people

46:22

the cause the actual crocs are pink

46:24

and sox were actually our way the

46:27

one group of people they're seeing the truth

46:29

of the image another group people

46:31

there seeing the truth of what

46:34

the actual object was before

46:36

was photographed though the

46:38

have to truth here and are not actually

46:41

can competition really their

46:43

right both true

46:45

so what you would any would never

46:47

get get any benefit

46:49

from understanding that are knowing that are learning

46:51

why you see it differently if you tried to

46:54

fight in way that only one of those two

46:56

truths gets to yes and i see it

46:58

you know so serve pad is

47:00

is there's a deep evolutionary

47:02

component to surf that rate and and

47:05

that's all about what's

47:07

adaptive what's adaptive in different context

47:09

and that's a big

47:12

lens through how i think about my

47:14

change work you know i'm i'm

47:16

i'm usually working with people who were

47:19

senior leaders in success

47:21

like him in big successful organizations

47:24

and advocacy is

47:26

adapted rate they got to their position

47:28

because they built a career

47:30

where they were able to come up with solutions

47:32

to problems you know often technical

47:35

problems i work with lot of people who are

47:37

engineers lawyers you

47:39

know software people like people that have that

47:41

kind of technical core like expertise

47:44

quarter their work and for

47:47

their whole career they've been rewarded for coming

47:49

up with solutions and then advocating for those

47:51

and then getting those put in place but

47:53

at some point when

47:56

you switch to a problem of certain

47:59

scope or feel particularly one

48:01

that involves other people having

48:03

to change now

48:05

all of sudden that skill of advocacy

48:07

is maladaptive released over expressed

48:10

you need this balance of and

48:12

i'm not first person to says argue

48:14

this a management context but you need

48:16

this balance of advocacy and inquiry

48:19

and you need to be able to you know

48:21

at the metaphor i often uses like it's

48:23

like you're throwing stone into a pond

48:26

and the the you've gotta

48:28

have a little bit of stone to throw in palm but if

48:30

easter too big of a stone and upon boom there's

48:32

no pond last piece are too small

48:34

a stone into the pond you know doesn't have any impact

48:37

so what you wanna do you wanna throw a stone

48:39

into the pond and then get curious

48:41

about people's reactions want to get curious

48:43

about what lands for them and what they interested

48:45

in and and and not to me

48:47

is where where the the kind of

48:49

bridge to i'm the

48:52

street epistemology comes from where you

48:54

know there's not really like there's

48:56

no advocacy they're kind of but by

48:58

design but the

49:01

the curiosity is around what

49:03

are people's experiences and what are their reaction

49:05

so the me in the organizational

49:08

context maybe you know here's what i'm

49:10

seeing is the problem what are you seeing her

49:12

and then you're off and running in this kind of collaborative

49:14

way and and yes taken away with street

49:16

epistemology diggers so much as degree hussein's

49:19

was the the the

49:21

thing and i didn't understand this going

49:24

and his project is something that came as

49:27

a do it the whole

49:29

book was i started out

49:31

really assuming one thing about how brains work in

49:33

than and and learning over time okay it's little

49:35

bit different than that and then eventually

49:38

find him finding all these different from

49:40

activist groups and and groups who are actively

49:43

attempting to create sweden

49:45

techniques that will that work well and many of them like

49:47

don't even like to beat that terminology persuasion

49:50

can he gets to be dirty word at some point because

49:53

made him facilitating the

49:56

the the concept of helping

50:00

the will investigate therapist malde

50:02

which is super small just put it right there in

50:04

the name and the reader

50:06

me is like i'm

50:07

the report today that i've met

50:09

and he was on twitter that a

50:12

new study shows that i've megaton i'm

50:14

deathly does not the

50:16

help kobe am the wafers

50:18

com it was like well good luck telling

50:20

that to anybody the don't they are going to show

50:22

this to people who believe that me this not

50:24

going to matter of these facts are going to change their mind and

50:28

the it

50:30

seems mysterious weird and frustrating but the

50:33

if you

50:34

the the reason the those facts might not

50:37

leyland some people is is

50:39

in the they do land with you should be mysterious

50:41

silly one hundred sk the reason those facts

50:43

aren't landings because clearly there's something

50:45

else had played has nothing to do with whether not

50:47

they the the

50:49

evidence alone the facts by themselves are

50:52

these sort of inert the

50:54

heater ah just

50:57

information objects that is what

50:59

it's what you bring to the information object is

51:01

in psychology they call this elaboration which

51:03

has seen huge you it that

51:06

this summer they took a lot about in an armed elaborate

51:08

unlikely that model clearly a because

51:10

if try to sell somebody as they were explain to me

51:12

try sell them so you tell them it's

51:14

few the soap smells like flowers

51:17

ah that's just that's fact

51:19

in and of itself but for some people

51:22

are going to think to think love the smell like flowers

51:24

please give me some of that and others will say i

51:26

do not want to smell like flowers are you not want

51:28

us to that that's the elaboration that takes place

51:30

after the fact is is is put

51:33

forth sipping is happening with ever met

51:35

and like as a reason is a motivation

51:38

the why this person might i refuse

51:41

to accept that evidence versus another person

51:43

who's like yeah course i was been telling people it's forever

51:45

ever met the the stuff doesn't work that that's

51:47

horse goop , the

51:50

but ask yourself why you so quick

51:52

to to certainty

51:55

why does that seem to land

51:57

for you land why wait for another person with another

51:59

person resist at the when are they might actually get

52:01

upset and super

52:04

small years away to approach

52:06

people were the object in

52:08

the the the goal is to help the other person

52:11

explore the reasoning process that leads

52:13

to certainty or the lack thereof

52:16

and it it's it spent

52:18

summers i i i actually did whether the

52:20

with the most like beautifully

52:23

stereotypical the thing that

52:25

actually journalists never actually do but i did

52:27

get to do this i hid in a bush with microphone

52:30

and it that far the

52:33

, best actually did like

52:35

i got one his a air pods

52:37

a d the other and so i could

52:39

listen could and hid in a in

52:41

bush just so when interrupt the conversations

52:44

and i'm the great anthony make the bosco

52:47

a who is the probably

52:49

the biggest advocate for biggest epistemology

52:52

a just approach strangers

52:54

on a college campus and invited them to

52:56

explore their beliefs and i've i

52:58

had seen do this before but i'd never seen

53:00

it so raw and an unfiltered is as

53:02

it was then it it incredible

53:04

so street epistemology

53:06

is in the book i talk about deep canvassing

53:09

street epistemology a smart

53:11

politics motivational interviewing

53:13

cognitive behavioral therapy there many many models

53:15

that use a similar thing lots of

53:17

them in therapeutic frames because

53:20

you're therapy all therapy therapy as because

53:22

place where you go to investigate what

53:24

the motivations behind your thoughts feelings behaviors

53:26

but can also do this in a situation

53:29

we're trying to determine if something is a

53:32

good or bad belief or it's true or false

53:34

ah there's a billion middle

53:36

constructs that go together into willing

53:38

into consider changing your mind and

53:40

try to reduce in the book down to something that

53:43

weekend the talk about easily which is

53:45

or police attitudes and values these

53:47

being

53:48

estimations of whether or not something is

53:50

or is not true information encoded

53:52

the brain i'm an attitude

53:54

is an evaluation of something is good

53:57

or bad positive negative and value as

53:59

where you would be

54:00

in something in the sort of a hierarchy

54:02

of we should put your

54:03

your efforts are your a resources and

54:07

moving something around and any those domains

54:09

councils changing someone's mind if you make something

54:11

more less certain are you make something up

54:14

more bad

54:15

that's good if you'd lose

54:18

value up and down the sending a my and oftentimes

54:20

it says these things are all connected one

54:22

will affect the other two and two and all play together

54:25

so

54:27

the in this one the things that often gets

54:29

in people's way like if you are

54:31

trying to change someone's mind is important

54:33

to articulate to yourself

54:36

which of those three things that more in

54:38

domain of if i was trying to

54:41

do like if if if you say i

54:43

i don't like this plan that my business my that my

54:45

company has put forth it

54:47

can feel like that's a belief and

54:49

you want to affect that person's belief

54:51

that is true but really what they're

54:53

expressing his and attitude they they have

54:56

aspect they have a negative estimation

54:58

or something and the to

55:00

change someone's attitude is not as soon as same

55:02

is changing their believe on something but

55:04

all these techniques will work but you just have

55:06

to tweak them little bit depending on what it is are trying

55:08

to affect

55:09

modi they've spent years been doing this

55:11

they've done lots of ab testing

55:14

ah hundreds and hundreds conversations

55:16

the record them are , pick

55:18

them apart afterwards during it they'll

55:20

get on discord and play at live

55:22

and you'll get to sort of running feed if

55:24

you're not if you're just

55:27

watching on but if the person who's

55:29

doing the actual interaction with and be able

55:31

to interact with that fi later i sort

55:33

of imagined it why was there like deck in

55:35

some like they have a during toga and they have

55:37

acolytes walking around with them but they're virtually

55:39

very cyber punk and course the

55:43

the way it works is and this something that

55:45

had to be are aerated on forever

55:47

but the the

55:48

sweepers malde works in steps

55:51

the first step is to establish report

55:54

which is something we talking earlier does that trust

55:56

environment that you want to have the same thing

55:58

if you have dinner party with

56:00

or who he doesn't people even we all have

56:02

friends who we know we disagree with

56:04

all sorts of things better okay because we

56:06

trust them i want to hang out loans that they could go

56:08

on our zombie survival squire school

56:10

i and just it's nice to argue

56:13

with them sometimes they change your mind sometimes change

56:15

there's there's utility and

56:17

the disagreement the establish

56:19

certain level of reporter the person to

56:21

gain access to that utility of disagreements

56:24

and we are geared to pick up on

56:26

cues

56:27

that will illustrate that to

56:29

as intuitively like weeks if

56:31

you

56:32

say anything to a person that can interpreted

56:35

are you demonstrate them to them is something

56:37

that can be interpreted as you should be ashamed

56:39

for youth sink feel i believe that's

56:42

if it's over with right because he did i you're

56:44

risking ostracism you're risking

56:46

shame in a way that will maybe

56:49

be i'm a mark against

56:51

that you're not interested in that sort interactions

56:54

you want establish report any countered safety

56:56

which is which is what you and i i

56:58

think one the threads in the bus fit to

57:00

you and i also talked about it like

57:03

fifty eight you need safety

57:05

to create the conditions for saints

57:07

ah no i in this way

57:09

we we are

57:11

social primates were own ultra social

57:13

primates who most

57:15

of our success came from working as group

57:17

toward group goals the

57:19

end

57:20

you can work toward goals together

57:22

in a way where you don't necessarily agree

57:24

on everything and and we have different tastes and

57:26

different experiences and different attitudes

57:28

and you can that

57:30

can become can feature a great grand

57:33

feature instead of instead horrible

57:35

bug that it seems that we often are worried

57:37

about being right now that says i he other

57:39

with the truth is dead and when and

57:41

we're never going to agree on a thing anymore yeah first

57:43

step is establish rapport assure the

57:45

other person you're not out the same them anyway

57:48

in sweden small do you clearly transparently

57:51

ask for their consent he

57:53

says of front this is what we're going to do can

57:55

i can we how would you feel about exploring

57:58

you are certainty in in

58:00

exploring how you feel about certain issue

58:02

and seen whether not you might want change your mind about

58:04

it in there and it's it's incredible

58:06

most people usually will say yes that men since

58:09

there the framework is built

58:11

mostly on fact based claims that the next

58:13

thing you do as you ask for a very specific

58:15

claim religion topic the

58:18

new confirmed that claim he repeated

58:20

back and in , in in

58:22

your own words first to ask to see you've

58:24

done good job summarizing that that

58:27

that you really are listening and

58:29

then when they're satisfied you

58:31

didn't clarify their definitions for that you're

58:33

not using your trousers

58:35

using their tumours you very important because

58:37

you could you

58:39

oftentimes aren't even having the conversation

58:41

you think you're having if other person has completely

58:44

different

58:45

construct a verse running a certain concepts

58:48

think in book say i like politics for

58:50

some people as is very is

58:52

know civics dot text book version

58:54

politics where other people have people have a

58:57

smoke filled room where people are planning

58:59

to i divvy up the world over golf later

59:01

so you might wanna make sure you get your

59:04

turned clarify did you ask for

59:06

numerical measure of confidence that's true and

59:08

all the frameworks sometimes

59:10

that's just for research purposes but other

59:13

times it's just as have so the other person can

59:15

gauge your reaction strangely that's what was

59:17

told by i callen brockman this

59:19

tip typically is what happens that the researchers

59:22

say deep canvassing give

59:24

us keepers and how they feel about gun

59:27

control for example when you say like guy

59:29

who were you at like wonder tin maybe

59:31

something even worse than that i'm like

59:33

how do feel about the war in ukraine in

59:35

the person any like tennis

59:37

i think russia's do it is right

59:39

in one is i think ukraine is ray and

59:41

they give you like a seven if

59:44

you they're

59:45

watching to see how you react that because

59:47

this is another opportunity for you to shame them

59:49

in and and point finger and and ostracised

59:51

them so ask for their

59:53

a numerical measure their confidence in their claim

59:56

you sir several purposes the main

59:58

thing though is that going to give them

1:00:01

a lattice by which they can a

1:00:03

medic cognates think about their on thinking

1:00:05

and you're going to be person who

1:00:07

guide them through that medical condition is about the

1:00:09

take place see you if

1:00:11

you get a numeric i'm as you asked for reasons they

1:00:13

have to hold that level of confidence then

1:00:16

they will come up with reasons were very good at coming with reasons

1:00:19

in psychology reasoning is just coming up with

1:00:21

reasons for you think field believe that

1:00:23

you would consider justifiable

1:00:25

to your trusted peers then

1:00:28

once they've given you reason it may not be

1:00:30

the actual reason we discussed this hour

1:00:32

before the storm which is

1:00:35

your grandmother i think birds were telling story about someone

1:00:37

who then , who quit

1:00:39

because they said jazz liquid was the

1:00:41

cause that it like the parking parking

1:00:43

situation was awful yeah as and

1:00:45

they're like no one else has ever complain about

1:00:47

parking and then they like get very concerned

1:00:49

about is the parking badge i work the parking

1:00:52

and i'm retelling of like that person

1:00:54

quit for reasons they may not even themselves

1:00:56

be able to able but most

1:00:58

salient thing was the parking is

1:01:00

like when people complained

1:01:02

about transformers movies and

1:01:04

saying of there's just too much cg i

1:01:06

within like you either but then they watch these injuries

1:01:09

movies and there's just as much cg i

1:01:11

sometimes is not even as good as transformer sweetie

1:01:13

good as clearly the cd i wasn't the problem

1:01:15

with transfers movie or something it's

1:01:17

difficult to articulate and not quite salient

1:01:20

which is be store i think i think we just got

1:01:22

a real lens and david mccready that

1:01:25

, metaphor metaphor

1:01:28

service so that's like that's very typical

1:01:30

a like if someone who is an anti vaccine

1:01:32

rather prieto vitter africa

1:01:34

with make tell you the reason that they are against

1:01:36

vaccines is in the the give you these

1:01:38

bullet points to the all sorts of things

1:01:41

but the the

1:01:42

real reason that they are against maybe

1:01:44

something they aren't even aware of it this is

1:01:46

called the introspection losing in psychology

1:01:49

the antecedents of our emotional states

1:01:51

the antecedents of our attitudes are often

1:01:54

southern the we can't it

1:01:55

respect upon we can do not available to us at

1:01:57

a in that's one the reasons there

1:02:00

the other thing is the to ,

1:02:02

to discover that reason you actually are against vaccines

1:02:04

is that you are haven't

1:02:07

, distrust of authority plus you

1:02:09

don't like the idea of losing your agency especially

1:02:11

when is related the care your child and

1:02:13

also you don't understand the science

1:02:16

behind nothing and you have distrust of doctors

1:02:18

in going to put all that all of that is where

1:02:20

you put into needle this gonna physically harm your

1:02:22

child that's why you're actually

1:02:24

gets the that's very unlikely something

1:02:26

gonna produce has a reason would you really want say

1:02:28

as one , them thousands of

1:02:30

bullet points to people but forth as the reasons potter

1:02:32

that's what the cdc had such problem

1:02:34

with these fact based approaches of showing

1:02:36

people all the reasons why vaccines are safe

1:02:39

in the research when they would do that people

1:02:41

would come out of it less likely

1:02:43

to get vaccinated because they

1:02:45

all they had done the entire time it was privately

1:02:48

counter argue against your points and then

1:02:50

they came out of that with more arguments against

1:02:52

as and they had going in which is why they that's

1:02:54

why the elements of backfire of it so

1:02:56

guinness is super small do you you you

1:02:58

ask the reasons that your where the fact

1:03:00

that might not actually be the true reason and

1:03:04

hopefully in the course of all this you're going get

1:03:06

all the way back in processing change to with that

1:03:08

reason is so you ask him what

1:03:10

method they're using to

1:03:13

judge the quality of that particular reason

1:03:15

and in for rest conversation you're going to focus

1:03:18

on that

1:03:19

method that are using like how

1:03:21

did you determine that's determine that's that's

1:03:23

a good reason to feel the way you feel because what's really

1:03:25

happening is they are on

1:03:28

their own on their side the conversation

1:03:30

with us you could try to copy and paste your own

1:03:32

reasoning into it they're starting

1:03:34

to maybe for the first time discover what

1:03:37

is motivating there

1:03:40

grieving process in

1:03:42

used to the conversation play out from there you

1:03:44

listen to summarize you

1:03:46

repeat you engage

1:03:48

in as a say in psychology non judgmental

1:03:51

to passionate listening and

1:03:55

but into videodisc rabbit and wish them well and

1:03:57

and just that has all these techniques

1:03:59

you something some

1:04:01

is unbelievable that is that in and

1:04:03

of itself often moves people around because

1:04:06

what's happening is they are introspective

1:04:08

in a way that they need

1:04:10

guidance to partake in

1:04:12

and once they've done that it's almost impossible

1:04:15

not to think about something that you think feel believe

1:04:17

in that deep of away without realizing

1:04:19

whom should rethink this maybe some of this has

1:04:21

received wisdom or maybe haven't considered

1:04:23

all the viewpoints on us that i've never

1:04:26

any point do i feel like you

1:04:28

are making me these things

1:04:30

is happening internally i am processing

1:04:33

yeah i'm producing these this elaboration

1:04:35

that wasn't there for me before i'm just

1:04:37

struck

1:04:39

this moment cause i'm i'm thinking about

1:04:41

my work and i'm thinking about what you're saying

1:04:43

and i'm thinking about the world we live in now

1:04:45

and you , what

1:04:47

i wonder i have santa see

1:04:49

that this kind is he

1:04:52

conversational ground

1:04:54

for elaboration the used to be

1:04:56

a lot more common than it is now

1:04:58

the and i don't have any evidence

1:05:00

for that to support that fantasy but

1:05:03

i'm just saying about my own life in you know

1:05:06

the amount of time i spend moving from one thing

1:05:08

to another i mean the way i mean i don't

1:05:10

really consume lot of news because

1:05:13

it affects my mental health but the

1:05:15

way do consume news when i do from

1:05:17

time to time you

1:05:19

know i might the fantasy i'm fantasy

1:05:21

i'm is that the not

1:05:24

it jaime used to live life

1:05:27

of leisure but the used to live life that was

1:05:29

more social than our than

1:05:31

the life that we lives now

1:05:33

and so i wonder if some of what

1:05:35

is the last

1:05:38

today is the

1:05:41

yes is this really this

1:05:44

really human human level interaction

1:05:46

that we just don't , as

1:05:48

much of now and so we don't have these

1:05:50

opportunities for elaboration

1:05:53

and reflection because we're always

1:05:56

reacting and responding and we are

1:05:58

in this information abundance the

1:06:00

landscape i don't know i'm making this up now

1:06:02

woody woody i have i have a lot

1:06:04

of also that i'll try not to have to

1:06:06

suck for twenty minutes straight again but this but

1:06:08

this i'm at on the this i'd because i i spend

1:06:10

a lotta a since or something but this but i've also

1:06:12

spent much time the

1:06:14

asking people who'd know lot

1:06:16

more about does that mean yeah life goal to

1:06:18

understand it the trying

1:06:21

to deferred their expertise one

1:06:23

person particular tom stafford is it

1:06:27

or he's been risk stream we have one or

1:06:29

when it came to him to sort of the

1:06:32

coalescing all my fault convincing all this iracing

1:06:35

analysts he something

1:06:38

that i want the things i to pay penance

1:06:40

for in this new book that

1:06:43

for years and years this as source

1:06:45

to work a time saver work if you go mercy and down

1:06:47

sperber the

1:06:48

interactions model and the truth wins model these

1:06:50

are two things that are sore the peanut butter and

1:06:52

chocolate of my own comeuppance i

1:06:54

used his tail people that

1:06:57

we were flaws and irrational and

1:07:00

when i was asked out the window in

1:07:02

septic moments of the home from book was

1:07:04

ions may ask me if he didn't have change

1:07:07

their fathers mind about a conspiracy theory

1:07:09

that he believed in as told the you couldn't do it

1:07:11

because i was still that captain of many of us still

1:07:13

are still are i never liked

1:07:15

it i didn't and i started to

1:07:18

the eagerly except opportunities

1:07:20

to question my on believe that regard

1:07:23

and an end the came in these two

1:07:25

places when it comes to whether

1:07:27

were flawed and irrational the

1:07:30

mercy is berber interactions muddled demonstrates

1:07:33

dead it's quite rational to

1:07:35

resist change your mind certain ways

1:07:38

and data there's nothing flawed

1:07:40

taking place when a person producers biased

1:07:43

and lazy arguments because it

1:07:45

saves kind of labor the ideas

1:07:47

that as you're willing to we would we

1:07:50

are built to enter into

1:07:53

we evolved reach consensus whether

1:07:55

it's facts or moral

1:07:57

ideas right wrong what is

1:07:59

just like what we'll be we're going to go watch the

1:08:01

ideas that we will talk it out will do the sort

1:08:03

of of twelve angry

1:08:05

men thing and the

1:08:08

group's the did a better job of doing that by

1:08:11

producing and evaluate their arguments in

1:08:13

reaching from your goals they out survivor

1:08:15

was the didn't so selective pressures led

1:08:17

to this innate psychology we

1:08:20

carry with us to attempt to persuade

1:08:22

others are tim produce arguments in those situations

1:08:25

but the cognitive systems that produce

1:08:27

arguments are different from the ones that evaluate

1:08:30

arguments the idea being everyone

1:08:32

produces everyone easy

1:08:35

lazy biased arguments because

1:08:37

you want them to be as much from your perspective

1:08:40

as you can make them cause that utilizes

1:08:42

your unique perspective it elijah

1:08:44

your nuke experience and he'd

1:08:46

have been to kind of person has been are

1:08:48

in a bunch of bear attacks i want you

1:08:50

to be against going in certain places because

1:08:52

you say oh hayek that can be bears their assists

1:08:55

in someone elses like lay i've i've

1:08:57

, there many times as never had barrett i want

1:08:59

want to have the combination of your to biases

1:09:01

at play and then it

1:09:04

you produce the lazy are you at first because the

1:09:06

ideas that everyone will produce all their arguments

1:09:08

together the and it didn't the in

1:09:11

will save all of our cognitive labor for

1:09:13

the for the twelve angry men thing

1:09:15

that takes place in the group as we sort of

1:09:17

and out and evaluate it is great research

1:09:19

where people are tricked into thinking that their own

1:09:22

arguments other people's arguments and

1:09:24

will make you'll notice when they think they're other people's

1:09:26

arguments they find all the flaws in their reasoning

1:09:29

which , couldn't find before and i'll yet it

1:09:31

out the only thing that changes is whether not you tell them

1:09:33

as their argument somebody elses and if

1:09:35

it's your argument you defendant getting and somebody

1:09:37

elses argument your final the flaws in it really

1:09:39

demonstrates the two systems when

1:09:42

it the other side my come up and says that

1:09:45

when or most the stuff i've i talked

1:09:47

about a new are not so smart and you know as

1:09:49

dumb and on podcast for years

1:09:53

and many other people who written about these

1:09:55

things are many other bucks a pop psychology

1:09:57

about irrationality and they

1:10:00

we we're all pulling for pool of studies

1:10:03

that we're done on individuals in

1:10:05

divided between vivid done on lots of individuals

1:10:08

but the actual research is done enough with people

1:10:10

in isolation and

1:10:13

in isolation you're using

1:10:15

that one cognitive process and lady

1:10:19

unbiased reasoning but

1:10:21

as tom staffers it is demonstrated

1:10:23

to me many times like

1:10:25

you can take the same studies and then

1:10:27

let people sort them out sort out the

1:10:29

questions as group can you get

1:10:31

much better a a success

1:10:33

rate and , started testing

1:10:35

this out in lectures and i didn't

1:10:38

i mentioned a little bit in book but like really

1:10:40

wanted to talk about it a lot but it just felt little

1:10:43

too like hey by the way i do electors

1:10:45

hire me kind of stuff i didn't want but then

1:10:47

there's a but i've i've seen listeners

1:10:50

listeners david does election election

1:10:52

have you or your organization

1:10:54

or your team or your leadership team

1:10:56

would feel like you would benefit from a deeper

1:10:58

dive into this stuff he will do a lack of

1:11:01

you will customize it so it

1:11:03

really helps you uncover your

1:11:05

deeper gif go on david gif go mean

1:11:07

and around the the a totally

1:11:09

okay i'm there's

1:11:11

something that i have done and lectures several

1:11:14

times and it's ah it

1:11:16

always works in it's amazing this all based

1:11:18

off of the tom staffers does any interacts

1:11:20

the small stuff is a , something

1:11:22

from the cogs a reflection task this

1:11:24

is something that was made popular by then

1:11:27

economy into give as a slow he took one the

1:11:29

questions that have a does that the bat and ball problem

1:11:31

the people are familiar with i am i take

1:11:33

a different thing from it because several in there

1:11:35

and what a will do

1:11:37

as i usually i have people play a cognitive

1:11:40

a play i haven't play i'm

1:11:42

confirmation bias game first which

1:11:44

everyone the room commits confirmation bias simultaneously

1:11:47

and we'll get to feel that and then

1:11:49

i didn't straight was try different kind of

1:11:51

game which is which throw up

1:11:54

the the widget problem i

1:11:56

ask him on the in a group to covenant answer the

1:11:58

keep to themselves and then

1:12:00

i ask is there anyone in the room

1:12:02

whose feals they strongly have

1:12:05

the the correct answer you really feel

1:12:07

strongly you do have correct answer

1:12:09

is sometimes i have people break out into smaller a small

1:12:11

groups into that way but but sometimes i do dissolves

1:12:14

one big group and

1:12:16

when one person says they have the right answer

1:12:18

i asked them to microphone

1:12:20

over the mercedes giving the answer

1:12:22

and and then out asked

1:12:25

his of his agree and there be a lot of murmurings lotta

1:12:27

people like what does make any sense then

1:12:29

think please explain your reasoning they'll say it in

1:12:31

some way they'll use doing their own words and

1:12:33

, get this collective ah in the

1:12:35

when the rouge yeah and then i

1:12:37

will save from the research when

1:12:40

you get this test two people in isolation

1:12:42

the majority of people will get

1:12:44

wrong answer but some them will get the right answer any

1:12:46

if you frame it that way like

1:12:49

in a podcasts are in a blog

1:12:51

posts are in book you can say

1:12:53

most people get this wrong look how

1:12:55

weird we are

1:12:56

the co flawed an irrational we are the

1:12:59

cope awful our reasoning is the

1:13:01

that's

1:13:02

those people were given the opportunity to speak

1:13:05

allow their reasoning and presented to the grew

1:13:07

by you when you do that the whole group

1:13:09

goes oh i see the answer thank you very much

1:13:11

can you go from a majority in cook

1:13:13

everybody's the majority groups wrong to now

1:13:16

everybody's right and

1:13:18

that's called truth when scenario that tom

1:13:20

staffers it is doing research on right

1:13:22

now i'm taking things like the ways

1:13:24

in selection task another sort

1:13:27

of heavy hitters from psychology

1:13:30

that demonstrate how flawed we are and

1:13:32

he's putting them into since you're online

1:13:35

the barman this barman this long answer to what originally

1:13:37

asked which is it feels like

1:13:39

in some primal version this we

1:13:41

were better off like we were able to do this

1:13:43

twelve angry men thing all time in

1:13:47

the , idea being a buddha where if if

1:13:49

we just go back to face to face conversations

1:13:51

with be more plugged into this is so

1:13:53

it's not that we have our

1:13:55

we're having more conversations back

1:13:57

then we're having more conversations now than we've

1:13:59

ever had the for we're we're writing with

1:14:02

we're disagreeing with refunding people does it hurt

1:14:04

us and everything more than ever we have more access

1:14:06

to than ever to other people's viewpoints

1:14:09

than it is everly history of our species

1:14:12

this is a were doing them and contexts where

1:14:15

we are favoring argument production

1:14:17

more than we are hearing the argument evaluation

1:14:20

and it seems like that seemed

1:14:22

didn't seem true because you like know i does

1:14:24

i'm evaluating lots of arguments on twitter

1:14:26

yes but you doing so in isolation it

1:14:28

feels like doing it together we're

1:14:31

doing it of those same way those studies were

1:14:33

done lots of people doing stuff

1:14:35

by themselves producing

1:14:37

these arguments and throwing all the on big pile

1:14:40

does a most these platforms favor

1:14:42

in the increase engagement

1:14:44

at the individual level

1:14:46

the tom staffers like what if we tried

1:14:48

to make online environments where people could

1:14:51

have produced as truth wins narrow and he's doing great

1:14:53

results from us he's doing it appears

1:14:55

he's trying out and text

1:14:57

for me is trying it in like sort more

1:14:59

on twitter is ways and

1:15:01

tic talkie kind of ways and turns

1:15:03

out you can

1:15:05

the just the knobs on the way we interact

1:15:07

with each other on the internet and in

1:15:09

online environments and electronic environments

1:15:11

and an information new information environments

1:15:14

and you can get

1:15:16

the best out of what we evolved to do

1:15:18

as sister we're living through a period of time

1:15:20

where we can i haven't sorted out

1:15:22

yeah i think that's a real that's it

1:15:24

that's damage me optimistic and

1:15:27

know the other thing i mean i think so

1:15:29

you know you'd you interviewed me on the podcast

1:15:31

a while ago about meltdown which is all

1:15:33

about the way world getting more complex

1:15:35

and i think particular the way of organizations

1:15:38

getting more complex to so as

1:15:41

we're talking about this what my mind goes

1:15:43

to his okay

1:15:45

but why do organization still struggle with

1:15:47

this you know organizations as groups of people

1:15:50

and i think it's because it's

1:15:52

kind of another it's almost like

1:15:54

another layer of the problem behind

1:15:56

it because the organizational

1:15:58

context that many people in his

1:16:01

it's not you know okay you have five machines

1:16:03

that make five widgets in you know

1:16:05

five minutes it

1:16:08

is a problem that what which is problem

1:16:10

at any anyone is capable

1:16:12

of looking at and solving and

1:16:15

any challenges i see organizational

1:16:18

leaders face these days are ones

1:16:20

that i mean i have a weird selection

1:16:22

bias of problems see but many them

1:16:24

are ones that you really actually

1:16:26

need oh creation

1:16:29

solve because different people

1:16:31

and of have different pieces of puzzle

1:16:34

different people experienced the problem in different

1:16:36

ways and so that's

1:16:38

where i get really interested in

1:16:40

the kind of to me it's like this

1:16:43

this this era where

1:16:45

the are kind of the

1:16:48

the the sort of command and control like

1:16:51

know hippo affect the highest paid person's opinion

1:16:54

which is how many organizations run their decision

1:16:56

making like that actually

1:16:58

feels really miserably because there

1:17:01

are many many people that are closer

1:17:04

to the problem and so the actual even

1:17:06

if and of the challenge

1:17:09

of uncovering with what is the

1:17:12

the dynamics of what's going on the organization

1:17:15

even that conversation has to be

1:17:17

collaborative and co creative because

1:17:20

otherwise you end up with these sort of like

1:17:22

weirdly strong signals that are just

1:17:24

depended on the specific experience

1:17:26

of the people in the room plus

1:17:29

their career as

1:17:31

getting rewarded for advocating for

1:17:33

for their solutions and so don't

1:17:36

know it's i don't know where to go from that but

1:17:38

i mean i might never demille go to like

1:17:41

people will the follow

1:17:44

the path

1:17:46

least resistance in the direction of their motivations

1:17:48

and what are you being what

1:17:50

you what are your motivation

1:17:52

to solve the problem than that in mystic organization

1:17:54

will make big difference sometimes

1:17:57

to to demonstrate you

1:18:01

should be the person who has but but you have

1:18:03

hidden had sometimes it's to break earn

1:18:05

social capital the

1:18:08

to have manager reputations

1:18:10

way another

1:18:13

i'm i think that there's the of

1:18:15

us so many different ways to come added that

1:18:17

how do you incentivize that solving

1:18:19

the problem is is the highest motivation

1:18:21

like that's your goal like

1:18:24

to see it's so we we have

1:18:26

is so easy to slip away

1:18:28

from that into to have these social

1:18:30

goals take over and

1:18:32

once you are in that frame like we're

1:18:35

much more were were way more

1:18:37

when agree

1:18:38

are set up to pursue belonging goals

1:18:40

over accuracy goals at all times you

1:18:43

have to incentivize the others side things

1:18:45

or you have to do it site good i'm sorry

1:18:47

i'm as guilty about it he got an idea oh no

1:18:49

i so i think incentives are such an interesting

1:18:52

an interesting and i i

1:18:56

i think and centers work really well

1:18:58

when you know what the problem is and

1:19:00

you want people to turn the crank and and i'm thinking

1:19:03

about most see how organizations apply financial

1:19:05

incentives are t v eyes are all

1:19:07

of their the alphabet soup

1:19:09

of what what organizations do to

1:19:12

try to quote unquote incentivise people but

1:19:15

for whatever reason and this is where my weird

1:19:17

selection bias comes into play too

1:19:19

like as you start attacking that that i started thinking

1:19:22

almost every reader that i

1:19:24

work with i'm working with because

1:19:26

they see a better way for

1:19:28

the organization to work like that's it

1:19:30

like they see oh

1:19:33

you know were asking these here's

1:19:36

an example from an oil and gas companies were asking

1:19:39

these mean people to to follow these long

1:19:41

complex procedures that

1:19:43

thought that kind stupid like

1:19:45

we should let them use their expertise rates

1:19:47

and we shouldn't burden them with bureaucracy

1:19:50

we should sort of let them

1:19:53

let them use their expertise and so

1:19:56

that funny is like there is

1:19:58

this motivation that a lot the people i

1:20:00

work with have which is just like we're

1:20:02

doing things in a way that may be made

1:20:04

sense certain context but we've taken it way

1:20:06

too far and there's

1:20:08

just better way of doing it so they

1:20:11

arse they are kind of you

1:20:13

know not seeking the truth capital t

1:20:15

but they are like they are in a c have a

1:20:17

vantage point where they see save

1:20:19

sit as soon doubt and they can see the system

1:20:22

little bit more clearly maybe than

1:20:24

even that they use to one my

1:20:26

clients said you know i'm else i

1:20:28

spend lot time the

1:20:30

kind of trying to dismantle framework

1:20:32

that i used to enforce arm

1:20:34

and i thought was really really interesting and

1:20:36

and good way to put it does

1:20:38

fantastic alabama i've obviously you're digging

1:20:41

like how i want hear more at us to just please

1:20:44

, an essay so can up that that's really

1:20:46

cool i like i'd like this

1:20:48

idea that this is it seems

1:20:50

me that there the organization

1:20:52

like you're but like you're talking about some people

1:20:54

have privilege of zooming out so we have

1:20:56

privilege of pushing way from table and

1:20:59

not everybody has that and reminds

1:21:01

me of like

1:21:04

when lot of people were really there were certain people

1:21:06

it's he companies were eager to get back to work

1:21:08

out recovered and there were others

1:21:10

you're like a young i'm young i'm doing

1:21:12

zooms and in working without

1:21:14

my shoes on like have visited

1:21:16

this the lake and idea like why would

1:21:18

you want to come back

1:21:20

cause that's where get to you collaborate

1:21:22

and us with good ideas flow and like three got to

1:21:24

be an extrovert yeah let's not

1:21:26

for everybody like like they have like

1:21:29

it not all of his get to do that and

1:21:31

there i feel like of i'm

1:21:34

wondering how you democratize the ability

1:21:36

to zoom out and an organization out another

1:21:38

cut the answer that about like that something that would nice

1:21:40

to explore i don't think

1:21:42

about the as we noted

1:21:44

belonging goals will trump accuracy goals

1:21:46

there's some things have already

1:21:48

happened in in in our the

1:21:51

in the arc of our species where we have

1:21:53

sort of accidentally found

1:21:55

way to get those two thing yeah

1:21:57

i'd ice like the scientific to

1:21:59

me the

1:22:01

the you gain social capital and

1:22:03

and status within a community by

1:22:07

presenting things as a hypothesis unlike the evidence

1:22:10

go where it may and and are

1:22:12

tearing apart each other's theories and vetting everything

1:22:15

like you move

1:22:17

up your reputation you

1:22:19

gain reputation by being a person

1:22:21

who tears apart your ideas and

1:22:23

who is willing to be wrong

1:22:26

so they they found way for their of belonging

1:22:28

goals and accuracy goals to work together with

1:22:31

an organization like say the flat earthers the

1:22:35

they're belonging goals will

1:22:38

prevent them from tearing apart their fantasies

1:22:40

right so if the same same

1:22:42

motivation same structures

1:22:45

the same things that were developed

1:22:47

by v a natural selection but in one firemen

1:22:50

you go to the moon supposedly

1:22:52

and an assist assist costs in

1:22:54

another and another , made

1:22:56

you happy if you to depend on on

1:22:59

on a d on yesterday use a different dating

1:23:02

app than most people because the the

1:23:04

right right success yeah

1:23:07

i'm wondering if his way to apply that to have to an

1:23:09

institution you know to and slid in salute institution

1:23:12

really how can we make it so does your

1:23:14

of the things you cannot help about being

1:23:16

a person work well together and

1:23:18

get us closer to the thing that with him benefits

1:23:21

all of us with earnest organization i

1:23:23

feel like there's a way to the

1:23:25

to mess with those let levers

1:23:27

and somewhere

1:23:28

okay so i'm going put two things you

1:23:31

which i'm and i want

1:23:33

to end and you get to choose actually

1:23:35

neither i'm from your buck but they're they're

1:23:37

both related and know lead us in different

1:23:39

past am one is

1:23:41

something called the paradoxical fury of seems

1:23:43

and i wonder if you've heard of that

1:23:46

then the other thing that we could talk about

1:23:49

his the resistance

1:23:51

and kind how resistance works

1:23:54

which which of those things are you more are

1:23:56

you more interest labella i know more about resistance

1:23:58

but i'm actually always

1:24:00

eager to hear about things never heard of so hit hit

1:24:02

with this paradox

1:24:03

okay so the paradoxical theory of change

1:24:05

i'm so and that says i

1:24:07

i'm going do what we just talking about i'm going to throw stone

1:24:10

into the pond then and then we'll see what you make of

1:24:12

it i'm so

1:24:14

it it's an essay written by this

1:24:16

guy arnold guy arnold

1:24:19

beiser actually don't know how to pronounce his last

1:24:21

name i'm and he is a he's

1:24:23

a a gestalt therapists

1:24:25

your shoulders this the kind of school of

1:24:27

have no i'm not a therapist but the school

1:24:29

of coaching organizational development that i'm

1:24:31

embedded in i'm and

1:24:34

work in and the

1:24:36

idea is that any

1:24:38

time people want to make a change even they show

1:24:40

up in want make a change in themselves that

1:24:43

comes with some amount of resistance and

1:24:46

eat this eat definition right because

1:24:48

if we wanted to make change and we didn't resistance

1:24:51

than we would just make the same so there's some

1:24:53

kind of their some sort of henchmen

1:24:55

there were always sitting in with

1:24:57

cheese and the

1:24:59

paradoxical serious change says

1:25:02

is that i'm and i think this goes back

1:25:04

to our conversation about safety what

1:25:06

it says is it basically we really

1:25:08

need appreciate the value of

1:25:10

what is now before we

1:25:12

can move away from it we really need to deeply

1:25:14

appreciate the value what is that once

1:25:19

we do appreciate it we can understand

1:25:21

what we get from what is now and then we are

1:25:23

more aware of it and

1:25:25

were more open to making making and

1:25:27

and that's little abstracts i'd like to try

1:25:29

to share an example for wavelengths of his best

1:25:31

that so there have

1:25:33

been periods in my life where

1:25:36

i have and i'm not like i

1:25:38

feel little sheepish sharing this

1:25:41

because it's not like while others sure and then

1:25:43

you can you can decide their been peers my life

1:25:45

where i've eaten a lot of toast with a lot of butter

1:25:47

on , like night i will i like

1:25:50

after a long day i'll come home i'll eat

1:25:52

like four pieces toast six pieces

1:25:54

of toast and lot butter as i'm eating

1:25:56

the toast i'm not like on pretty good

1:25:58

happy about this arrangement know like like

1:26:00

i'm i'm interested in being a healthy person

1:26:03

right like i'm worried about my way to

1:26:05

have whole story about ways that i've i've

1:26:07

been live my life so

1:26:10

i don't really wanna do this and yet

1:26:12

here i am eating eating toast

1:26:15

and so what about

1:26:17

the same time i was in a lot of called peak

1:26:19

toast periods am i

1:26:21

was also learning about the paradoxical theory

1:26:24

teens and sounds like all right let's

1:26:26

like let's make this real

1:26:28

so why what

1:26:31

is happening here like what is the value

1:26:33

i get from eating toast so

1:26:35

obviously the toast is

1:26:37

delicious and the the six pass

1:26:39

of butter put on it are incredible so

1:26:41

there's like just like sensory experience

1:26:44

that i really enjoy there's

1:26:46

something deeper here right because like

1:26:48

if it were just to censor express me baby one

1:26:50

piece atos but i'm eating six pieces of toast

1:26:52

so what's what's happening here and after

1:26:55

, introspection and

1:26:58

i don't i don't think i was professional

1:27:00

on this but i might have or remember

1:27:03

when oh goodness like best

1:27:05

eating toast in this way it really

1:27:07

gives me sense of the

1:27:10

control it gives me a sense

1:27:12

that oh i can break rules because i

1:27:14

kind no i'm not i'm not supposed to eat toast

1:27:16

like this and it

1:27:18

gives me the sense that like you

1:27:20

know amidst all of this uncertainty

1:27:22

this uncertainty world and in my business and in my

1:27:24

life like this is something

1:27:27

that i get to just hold onto and this

1:27:29

is something i get to carve out for myself

1:27:31

and and just do and

1:27:34

as i kind of uncovered those

1:27:36

of reasons as i i

1:27:39

you know dug little bit deeper it

1:27:41

was it's just was very freeing

1:27:43

for me and it's like okay well query

1:27:48

hey weather i

1:27:50

actually need break the rules cause you

1:27:52

know i i

1:27:55

actually break the rules every day right like i'm on

1:27:57

a weird nontraditional career path like

1:27:59

the the you know sit by myself

1:28:02

for long time and think about my clients problems

1:28:04

or i have like deep conversations

1:28:06

where you know i'm coaching them

1:28:08

and like were crying or like

1:28:10

i'm doing you know flying

1:28:13

around world doing like weird sort

1:28:15

of work with organizations that organizations can't really describe

1:28:17

my clients my clients really describe but like

1:28:20

get something and very

1:28:22

meaningful out of that so actually

1:28:24

i spend all day breaking the rules and so

1:28:27

i just offer this because i

1:28:29

think it's really interesting and think it's interesting

1:28:31

that the beauty of hearing all sorts

1:28:33

things pop off my head that connect good he will

1:28:35

have great suits suits others bring it to

1:28:37

a close because that's what i want get soon so that

1:28:39

did it is it's like very occasionally i

1:28:41

will eat toast now in this

1:28:43

way almost never six pieces i'm

1:28:46

and and much more rare it's like oh

1:28:48

like i has kind is i

1:28:50

have on in uncovering the deeper reasons i

1:28:52

no longer need to reach

1:28:55

for the kind of the

1:28:57

superficial mechanism a kitten

1:28:59

now just reflect on the underlying reasons

1:29:01

and indeed you know this

1:29:03

to me is this lived experience

1:29:06

of this of this paradoxical theory of change

1:29:09

this

1:29:09

is so that's that that's the stone a thank

1:29:11

you i love it ah just use

1:29:13

write book called peak tourist office

1:29:17

or of the title of his bike as has be picked

1:29:19

her is this is hear is the

1:29:21

thing you are naturally

1:29:24

wandering into

1:29:26

the same place to did the deed canvassers

1:29:28

wandered into and the same

1:29:30

place to super small and hundred and two and

1:29:33

they both of those groups were absolutely

1:29:35

fascinated to discover that motivational

1:29:37

interviewing has already later ground groundwork

1:29:39

for all that stuff ah and cbt

1:29:41

ali of our offshoots of motivation interviewing

1:29:45

that's because you at

1:29:48

least many ways to preserve the the you're

1:29:52

talking about what works

1:29:54

in those persuasion techniques is

1:29:57

that i don't start at the

1:29:59

conclusions

1:30:00

or i don't wanna go have a battle of conclusions

1:30:02

the whole search pad after the line thing

1:30:05

we can try to get a cross that line and find

1:30:07

out

1:30:07

what your motivations what he drives what

1:30:09

are the things that are generating

1:30:12

the emotional reaction you're having right now

1:30:14

why did you quit work

1:30:16

i don't think it's the the parking garage is

1:30:19

a it's the there's

1:30:21

an old study that i love

1:30:23

is not the book they yeah they had

1:30:25

a job the

1:30:26

professor who had really sick

1:30:28

belgian accent and had professor

1:30:31

in some classes i give

1:30:33

people hop

1:30:34

tests and i was really a real hard

1:30:36

as and in other classes is

1:30:38

very laid back one of those easy

1:30:41

going professors like a learned not

1:30:43

learned and is here to talk and

1:30:46

they

1:30:46

will have these class evaluations where they'd say

1:30:48

or do you what you think of the professor

1:30:50

and course one time they do as specifically

1:30:52

what do you think of the accents and that

1:30:54

say the second best thing about a messy was the easy

1:30:57

going professor and the last i say

1:30:59

it is is the exit the drives

1:31:01

me insane this is the thing that happens

1:31:03

like winner but when person is

1:31:06

falling in love with someone every every little aspect

1:31:08

every other little nuances are reasons why

1:31:11

i when they are despise

1:31:13

that person when they're like in the verge of a break up

1:31:15

those are all the reasons why they're gonna break up

1:31:17

with apres it's highly in

1:31:19

therapy this is all part of the process

1:31:22

of of getting back to it's

1:31:24

so easy to come with justification

1:31:26

or explanation or rationalization for

1:31:28

what you think the on believe that

1:31:30

may not actually be the truth

1:31:34

motivation for it then of the true

1:31:36

reason so in

1:31:39

this instance if that's what happens in motivation

1:31:41

living as happens and sweepers maltese we haven't

1:31:43

and canvassing you patiently sit

1:31:45

with someone in way that allows them to

1:31:48

introspect can get past that

1:31:50

line in the peak toast

1:31:52

moment that's what you're doing right you're you're

1:31:54

like okay guess what is

1:31:56

going on here i am getting

1:31:58

these things are these drives

1:32:01

and motivations are being satisfied agency

1:32:03

affective seconds predictability

1:32:07

the identity also

1:32:09

some extremely primal things are

1:32:11

some very deep

1:32:13

, psychology stuff like no

1:32:16

calories ah yeah salt

1:32:18

sugar fat fat it probably would really

1:32:20

it is foundation there and

1:32:22

and build up from all these other things

1:32:25

that we've added on top that as we've

1:32:27

evolved as a species identity and seconds

1:32:29

and agency analyst or athena

1:32:32

those to satisfying all these things for you in

1:32:34

that moment once you have that

1:32:37

understanding you

1:32:39

can have from those things with

1:32:42

alternatives and you gave

1:32:44

yourself the power to do that that's

1:32:46

also what happens these moments where people change their minds

1:32:48

right often

1:32:50

times once person is given the gift

1:32:52

of understanding where where their why

1:32:54

they are eager to

1:32:57

cherry pick evidence for things that satisfies

1:32:59

there identity

1:33:01

or satisfy your need for predictability

1:33:04

are their need to lower their anxiety they

1:33:06

didn't given the freedom to find

1:33:10

other ways of doing that and when

1:33:13

comes to values especially that's one

1:33:15

that's how trolley beach and

1:33:17

make themselves roper and so the other people

1:33:20

i i spoke to and but the way they

1:33:22

the able to escape those are

1:33:25

pseudo cultish environments of as conspiratorial

1:33:27

environments was it turned out they had

1:33:30

values that were

1:33:32

important to them they were

1:33:34

unaware that there were other some

1:33:37

cultures other communities they

1:33:40

can affirm their values even

1:33:42

more so and they had to be given

1:33:44

at someone had offer a hand from

1:33:46

those places not push them away not

1:33:48

ridicule them at all for their of her hand say it's

1:33:51

cool be here a from your values become person

1:33:53

you truly are so all this

1:33:55

all this in sense that these are

1:33:57

the same fundamental psychological

1:33:59

mega them to play at loved it the

1:34:01

he can get their via toast think that's beautiful

1:34:04

a hint hint then

1:34:07

there's isn't gonna was in here too because yeah

1:34:09

the reason resist changes because

1:34:12

fundamentally if you update

1:34:14

your model reality when you shouldn't

1:34:17

you might become wrong which is dangerous

1:34:19

especially that could lead you to been getting eaten

1:34:21

are starving that

1:34:23

not updating when you should is also

1:34:25

dangerous you might stay wrong in a way

1:34:27

that could get you eaten north cause you

1:34:29

to start so the

1:34:31

brain works a tight rope into a change

1:34:33

your mind i carefully given

1:34:37

the variety of motivations and goals and

1:34:39

play and sometimes those motivation

1:34:41

goals are i just want to be held

1:34:43

i just wants the be touched i just

1:34:45

want to

1:34:47

feel in control i just want to

1:34:49

lower my anxiety there's

1:34:51

so many things that can play into where

1:34:53

you will decide to take a step on that tyro

1:34:56

and i find it

1:34:58

you to pull that the toast is really good

1:35:00

way to get into that conversation without having

1:35:02

to start with some

1:35:05

with or receipt coleen and serotonin

1:35:07

this serotonin this really great way to discuss it what

1:35:10

else is you know or acts as i i

1:35:12

as soon as i skipped over this at the beginning

1:35:14

because it was uncomfortable but i'll just go back

1:35:17

to it and make it really explicit it's

1:35:19

an uncomfortable thing for me to share this mean it's

1:35:21

such with which is also interesting right

1:35:24

it's the feel very vulnerable to share that said

1:35:26

mean we have so much in our culture about you

1:35:28

know eating and seem and all of this stuff

1:35:30

and it's

1:35:33

not like it's it's it's

1:35:35

a simple example to very sasol example

1:35:37

but it's not trivial example like clearly

1:35:40

something that got my attention and that

1:35:42

argue hide the they

1:35:44

occupied me and it

1:35:47

also guy thing comes down to you know you talked about

1:35:49

sidewalk a sort change and resistance but

1:35:51

also the tight walk of willpower number

1:35:54

the tight rope of willpower was think it's something

1:35:56

that's also so deeply

1:35:58

connected to change

1:36:00

you know we try use willpower to change

1:36:03

man can be muscle our way through for while

1:36:06

until , can't and i think that's

1:36:08

a that's a part that's been a part of my story

1:36:10

to pay up with with you and enough a

1:36:13

full transparency the i'm transparency the even

1:36:15

think about it but i'm we waited as

1:36:17

we built report and

1:36:21

i use you as if you couldn't hear a story

1:36:23

would be and i offered to non judgmental listen

1:36:25

to it all those the having satisfies

1:36:28

then i can now i can also

1:36:30

add another little commiseration i was over cooper

1:36:32

the last one hundred pounds like i'm

1:36:35

with you on this like every single thing

1:36:37

i eat brings with

1:36:39

it

1:36:40

a million triggers a any

1:36:42

thoughts of shame thoughts of

1:36:45

identity thoughts of reputation

1:36:47

management thoughts the

1:36:50

denying myself is also feels like

1:36:53

losing control our agency

1:36:55

and agency having to

1:36:57

eat the same type of the predictability didn't

1:37:00

know what do i value more do is a my health

1:37:02

my appearance what is a all

1:37:04

of it comes in there and it's not

1:37:06

trivial read the group

1:37:09

this is something we probably share with many people

1:37:11

in yeah so i can commiserate fully

1:37:13

with illness and it and in in

1:37:15

just telling the story and receiving story

1:37:17

and then you and i offering

1:37:19

perspectives on story it's demonstrating

1:37:22

the very thing that i'm proselytizing

1:37:25

i feel and i probably yes

1:37:28

yeah and it's you know it's so it's

1:37:30

so connected to my works coaching

1:37:33

and am working with you know

1:37:35

where know where leaders to help them see their strengths

1:37:37

and also help them see what happens

1:37:39

when those strengths are over expressed and

1:37:41

then organizations do that have

1:37:43

the same dynamic great organizations

1:37:45

have a real strengths

1:37:48

whether it's collegiality

1:37:50

or direct ness or even run

1:37:52

through centralized essentially me who run

1:37:54

through kind of millions of different

1:37:56

parameters of what organizations

1:37:59

value and the

1:38:01

paradox is that if you wanna

1:38:03

seen something if you want it seems the way you

1:38:05

are the where you work you've gotta focus

1:38:07

on creating safety around

1:38:09

what's valuable now because that's what people

1:38:11

don't want leave people don't wanna give up

1:38:14

thing that did they find valuable

1:38:16

and i think that's i think what your work

1:38:19

shows us in this book is just how deeply

1:38:21

rooted that is and

1:38:24

and also how am so

1:38:26

universal that is and and literally universal

1:38:28

and arse human primate way because

1:38:31

it's you know you

1:38:34

know are millions of years of of of evolution

1:38:36

and experience that have brought us to this point you've

1:38:39

written beautiful book and

1:38:42

i mean it's

1:38:44

just a privilege to talk with you about it because

1:38:46

your energy in your enthusiasm and

1:38:49

the way you bring these stories to life mean it's

1:38:51

not like it's not

1:38:53

like we're not read and dry scientific papers here

1:38:55

i mean you're talking about the researchers you're talking

1:38:57

about this the as the changes

1:38:59

these practitioners are making and people's lives

1:39:02

and you know so much to

1:39:04

say about your book it's impossible to summarize

1:39:06

but i do think that there is

1:39:09

there is a through line which is

1:39:12

human connection matters and empathy matters

1:39:15

and you know how to mine change

1:39:17

well in some sense the the change when

1:39:19

we stop trying to change them and start accepting

1:39:22

people for who they are and that's

1:39:24

what you're talking about here yeah i

1:39:26

think thank you so much for that didn't

1:39:29

know that would give come across as it at some

1:39:31

point i had

1:39:32

i reached a point running it was like i want

1:39:34

this the book i wanna i wanna write and it may

1:39:36

not be what people interviewed this is it