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Slows. mintmobile.com. BBC

1:00

Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

1:30

Mediaeval Literature and the Director of the Centre for

1:32

Medieval Studies at the University of York. She

1:34

specialises in the literary culture of England from

1:36

the 9th to the 12th century and, handily

1:39

for us, she's particularly interested in medieval English

1:41

queens. It's Professor Elizabeth Tyler. Welcome, Elizabeth. Hi.

1:43

Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Oh, we're delighted

1:46

to have you here. And, in comedy corner, she's

1:48

a stand-up comedian, actor and writer. You'll have seen

1:50

her on all the television shows, including Live at

1:52

the Apollo, Mock the Week, Frankie Boyle's New World

1:54

Order, perhaps you've seen her on tour or read

1:57

her hilariously honest memoir, The Other Mother. But... the

2:00

challenges of parenting. I've got the audiobook, it's

2:02

excellent. Maybe you've heard her podcast, WTB, which

2:04

I think has a slightly ruder name when

2:06

fully pronounced, but I won't say what it

2:08

is. It's Jen Brister. Welcome to the show,

2:11

Jen. Oh, Greg, it's an absolute pleasure. I

2:14

have to do the contractually obligated

2:16

question with Batedbreath. Do you like

2:18

history? I do, actually. I'm intrigued by

2:20

history. Like when I was young, I thought, oh,

2:22

what's the point? Why are we learning about

2:24

things that have happened? And I'm thinking, maybe

2:26

we should go back. Let's delve back and

2:28

see what we can learn from history. Yeah.

2:31

What about medieval history? I know zero. Now,

2:33

I did study it. I mean, I

2:36

say study. Do you study when you're at primary

2:39

school? I did sit in a room while

2:41

someone talks at me about medieval history. Okay.

2:44

You know the usual, William the Conqueror

2:46

and the Battle of Hastings and all

2:48

of that. But I think

2:50

it really started and ended there. My

2:52

knowledge of medieval history is blank, so

2:55

I'm very intrigued. So what do you

2:57

know? This

3:04

is where I have a go at guessing what

3:06

you, our lovely listener, will know about today's subject.

3:08

And like Jen, when I say Emma of Normandy,

3:10

I think everyone's going to be thinking, Emma who?

3:12

You've possibly heard of her son, King

3:15

Edward the Confessor. His

3:17

death in 1066 led to the Little Cuffuffle,

3:19

known as the Norman Conquest and the Bayard

3:21

Tapestry, which of course is what our artwork

3:23

is based on. But Emma herself, absolute

3:26

tumbleweed. There's

3:29

no movies. There's, I mean, there's a trilogy

3:31

of historical novels by Patricia Bracewell. Emma popped

3:33

up in a recent series called Vikings Valhalla

3:35

that's on Netflix. But that's kind of it.

3:37

Oh, have you seen that? I think so.

3:40

Yeah. Oh, okay. We

3:42

saw another show. It's also like probably

3:44

factually completely incorrect. Is it called Last Kingdom

3:47

or? Oh yeah, that's slightly earlier. Oh, is

3:49

that slightly? Slightly earlier. But

3:51

that's right. Roughly the right era. So that's

3:53

good. So okay, Jen's got some little

3:56

things firing in the background there. But who

3:58

was this fairly unknown medieval English quiz? How

4:00

did she end up being Queen of England

4:02

not once but spoiler alert twice and

4:05

what was the dating scene like for royal women

4:07

in the 11th century? Let's find out Professor

4:10

Elizabeth let's start with some historical context because

4:12

this is complicated stuff So we often define

4:14

the medieval period on this show is lasting

4:17

1,000 years from

4:19

the fall of the Western Roman Empire To

4:21

the Protestant Reformation when

4:23

in that thousand years do we find Emma?

4:25

Where does she pop up? So Emma

4:28

lived a thousand years ago. So roughly in

4:30

the middle of medieval history She was born

4:32

probably 985 and died in 1052 So

4:36

that's bang in the middle of medieval history In

4:38

fact, that's so bang in the middle that

4:41

she was a teenager for the first

4:43

millennium It's also wild how

4:45

long she lived. Yeah, the

4:47

century I mean she lived to what would be

4:49

considered quite a ripe old age. Wouldn't you? That's

4:52

what a 67 probably

4:54

yeah, I mean that's like in medieval

4:56

Asia. That's probably like 325 So

5:00

she's born in 985 probably and then

5:02

we're talking here about Normandy

5:04

so Jen, what do you know about medieval

5:07

Normandy? Well, I'm assuming it's

5:10

Normandy so Normandy is that not what

5:12

was France was known as as Normandy. Am I

5:15

completely you're looking at me like no, don't know

5:17

that no judgment Love

5:20

is that you've absolutely picked the right answer but

5:22

it's not true. So this is the problem in

5:24

medieval history Elizabeth Normandy not

5:27

France France and Normandy complicated concepts

5:29

a thousand years ago France wasn't

5:31

France yet So we need to

5:33

go about 200 years before Emma's

5:35

time and look at what Charlemagne

5:37

did He had built a huge

5:39

Frankish Empire which included France and

5:41

Switzerland some of Germany Austria

5:43

and Italy But his descendants

5:46

couldn't hold it together and by the

5:48

time we're looking at Emma the

5:50

Carolingian dynasty that had pulled all

5:52

that space together was replaced by

5:54

the Capetians and They ruled

5:56

about two-thirds of what would become modern

5:59

France But it's not France as we

6:01

know it still. And the king,

6:03

he wasn't much more than an equal to

6:05

various counts and dukes. So he had very

6:07

little power and kind of hung out in

6:10

Paris. So Normandy was, so

6:12

was it a region rather than a country?

6:14

Right. So that's, so what we've

6:16

actually, we've got a little bit more complication. So you

6:19

see, you've watched maybe the last kingdom. Yes,

6:21

I have. I mean, let's not go to that for life. But

6:24

do you want to guess how the Vikings might be

6:26

involved in Normandy? The Vikings,

6:29

they invaded Normandy, they held

6:31

big parties. Yeah, no. So

6:34

the first Duke of Normandy, who wasn't actually

6:37

a Duke yet, the Count of Normandy, was

6:39

called Rollo. And he

6:41

invaded in what, 9-11? And

6:44

he what steals the land? He and

6:46

his friends are hanging out there settling.

6:49

And finally the king, this not very

6:51

powerful king, feeds him territory and

6:53

makes him account. He has to

6:55

convert to Christianity in return. You

6:58

know, the king's hoping Rollo's going to play ball

7:00

and be just a normal French count. And

7:03

the territory's named Normandy because Rollo was

7:05

a Nordman, a man from the north.

7:08

But of course it doesn't work out so

7:10

smoothly. I mean, I could have

7:12

predicted that. Listen, I don't, I mean, like

7:14

I would have just met one Viking and gone, I'm

7:16

not, I'm pretty sure I can't trust you guys to

7:18

do anything. Yeah. They didn't look like they

7:20

played ball. So Normandy is

7:22

named after. The Nordmen. The

7:26

Vikings. Yeah. And Rollo

7:28

is Emma of Normandy's great granddaddy.

7:31

So that's why we've mentioned him. So

7:33

she's a descendant from a Viking. But

7:35

what does it mean to be a Norman

7:38

then, Elizabeth? She's got this Viking

7:40

heritage, but she's sort of living

7:42

in northern France-ish,

7:44

speaking French. Yep.

7:47

So we're very much talking about this

7:50

French-Frankish, meek Scandinavian kind of

7:52

identity. And the Normans, they learn

7:54

French, but they're very keen on

7:56

their Scandinavian heritage, and they seem

7:58

still to speak Danish. Do you

8:00

know what? I was in Normandy recently. They love

8:02

a blonde beer. I'm not saying that goes that

8:04

bad that far, but they absolutely did. Do you

8:06

know that? They couldn't get a Pilsner for love

8:08

Normandy in Normandy. Okay, so they didn't

8:10

even speak French at that time. I had no idea.

8:12

They're learning French, so they're bilingual probably, aren't

8:15

they? If you are in that region of

8:17

France, Normandy or even in Boston, they

8:19

have a dialect then, even today,

8:21

don't they? Yeah, different pronunciation, just

8:24

like in England. Yeah. Although Brethorn is an older

8:26

language. It goes back to the Iron Age. It's

8:28

actually a Celtic language and it's linked to Brethonic,

8:30

but we won't go into that. We've got to

8:32

go one language at a time, you're absolutely killing

8:35

me. We're only on page two. Okay.

8:39

Our Normans are sort of distinct culture

8:41

of their own. So they're speaking French

8:43

and Danish. What else is distinct

8:46

about them? Emma's dad, for example, what do we know

8:48

about him? He's actually

8:50

trying to revive their Scandinavian identity

8:52

as a way of creating cohesion

8:54

among quite a disparate group

8:56

of people in Normandy. He's trying to persuade

8:59

them, they're all Normans, to kind of get

9:01

them to hang together. And you see that

9:03

in the way he's buried. The historian, Polly

9:05

Ann Stafford, who wrote a wonderful book about

9:07

Emma, she talks about how

9:10

he has a Christian grave in

9:12

an abbey, but it's put on

9:14

the cliffs above Fecant Harbor so

9:17

that it's also a bit like the burial

9:19

of a Viking warrior. And in

9:21

fact, they're reviving that Viking identity

9:24

in this point. Okay, so it's a fusion of

9:26

things and his funeral is also a fusion of

9:28

things, which is interesting. But Emma's

9:30

Scandinavian heritage doesn't just come from her dad,

9:32

Richard, Count of Normandy, it also comes from

9:34

her mum. She's one of nine

9:36

children, Elizabeth, but we think we know who

9:38

her mum is. Is it Gunnar? Yes, we

9:40

think we know who her mum is. Yeah, her

9:43

mum is Gunnar. Absolutely. A thousand years ago, it's

9:45

hard to know whose people's mums are sometimes. Yeah,

9:47

and sometimes they tell us different

9:49

stories. So Gunnar was Richard's second

9:51

wife. So Richard's first wife

9:53

was called Emma. And of course, we're going

9:56

to have a whole game through this whole

9:58

podcast about... Richard

10:01

is her dad. Richard is her

10:03

dad and he's the first Duke of Normandy.

10:06

Richard the first. Her brother is also going to

10:08

be Richard. Oh no, come on. Everybody's

10:11

that same name. Everyone's either Richard

10:13

or Emma or Elskeefu. Oh,

10:16

sorry, what was the last one? Elskeefu, we'll get to that, don't

10:18

worry. May fact

10:20

didn't continue, Elskeefu. That

10:24

marriage to Gunner is actually kind

10:26

of part of that revival of

10:28

the Scandinavian identity of the Normans

10:30

because she's from a more recently

10:33

arrived Danish family and she probably

10:35

speaks Danish. So we

10:37

know very, very little about Emma's

10:39

childhood but I think we can

10:41

situate it in this place where

10:43

there is this interaction of Scandinavian

10:45

and Frankish but actually this revived

10:48

sense of we're Norman, we're Northmen. Okay,

10:50

so the Normans are different. They're proud

10:52

to be different. And Emma's primary

10:54

language would probably have been French

10:57

but we think she can also speak

10:59

Danish. And Latin, do you think? Educated?

11:01

No, I don't think she can. She's not

11:03

educated. That's a very British thing

11:06

to say, not educated, it's all bilingual

11:08

but sadly. She's

11:10

not given that schooling that we might

11:13

assume would be given to a royal

11:15

child. Okay, and the transformative event in

11:17

Emma's young life, Jen, was when she

11:19

was aged 17 and she

11:21

is married off. So quite an

11:23

important chap, King Ethelred II of England in the year

11:25

1002. I've heard of King Ethelred.

11:28

Have you? What have you heard? Probably whatever

11:30

I picked up from some Netflix drama.

11:34

Is he the chap that had

11:37

terrible stomach issues? Oh, that's Alfred.

11:40

Yeah, I think Alfred's the one with the

11:42

hemorrhoids and the piles. So he

11:44

had terrible piles. Okay, great. I

11:46

didn't want to bring

11:49

up piles this early on in the show

11:51

actually, but here we are. And so King

11:53

Ethelred is before King Alfred. After. So yes,

11:56

I'm mixing up my shows. Okay, so perhaps

11:58

I picked this up from another. classic

12:00

show, historically probably incredibly inaccurate, it's called

12:02

Vikings. I have heard of it. Right,

12:04

there we go. So I've known about

12:07

King Ethelred through watching that show and

12:10

he tried to create a

12:12

relationship between the Vikings and

12:15

the English. No, okay. You're

12:18

doing very well to navigate these incredibly difficult

12:20

things but no, we're into 1002 which is

12:24

a different Ethelred, number two. So

12:26

let's do the basics. He is 36, Emma is 17. You're

12:31

wincing, Jen. Right. Yeah.

12:34

Yeah, okay. I'm honking my problematic marriage collection as I

12:36

so often do on this show. We've had worse but

12:38

that is still creepy. She's

12:40

17, she's farmed off to go and marry

12:42

the King of England. A very powerful man,

12:44

Emma's dad had been known as Richard the

12:46

Fearless. Jen, do you know

12:49

what Ethelred's epithet or nickname was?

12:52

Ethelred the Goa? I don't know. He

12:54

is 36 and she's 17. I

12:56

don't know. Who knows?

12:59

No, the name that he's given by history is

13:01

Ethelred the Unready. Have you ever heard that

13:04

phrase? I've never heard that but if he's not

13:06

ready at 36, God help him. He's

13:08

never going to be ready, is he? Come

13:10

on, mate, grow up. Where

13:13

does he get this name from, Elizabeth? So

13:15

it's a joke and it

13:17

means, if you say unready, that means

13:19

ill-advised because the word rad in old

13:21

English means advice. So

13:24

he's called Ethelred the

13:26

Ill-advised but there's a

13:28

pun there because his name,

13:30

Ethel Rad, means well-advised. So

13:33

it's a joke. Oh,

13:35

right. Well-advised, the poorly advised and

13:37

it's hard to resist. It is a good gag,

13:39

okay. It's an absolute banger and

13:41

a shock. If I

13:43

was coming out, I'm telling you in the next

13:46

special, if you hear that, was he not considered

13:48

to be a great king? Was he sort of

13:50

not respected or was he very much respected but

13:52

everyone was out there to take a joke? Yeah,

13:54

I mean it all starts out kind of badly.

13:57

So he's got a half-brother, Edward.

14:00

The Martyr, who's not a martyr when

14:02

he starts out. So

14:04

he's got this half-brother Edward the Martyr. And

14:08

Ethelred's ambitious mother bumps him

14:10

off so that her son,

14:13

Ethelred, can rule. Ethelred's only

14:15

ten at the time, so we can't

14:17

blame him for it. But it kind

14:19

of hangs like a cloud over his

14:21

reign. Things just weren't on-aught

14:23

on his side. Ethelred comes to power and then

14:26

he has to face just constant Viking invasions. And

14:28

what he does is he pays them off. He's ten!

14:30

What's going on? Well, he gets older. I've

14:33

got two kids who are nine. I can barely get

14:35

them to pee in the toilet. I'm not expecting them

14:37

to run a country. What are we talking about

14:39

here? This is insane. It was quite a long

14:41

reign actually, but he's just constantly bedeviled by Vikings.

14:43

So, Jen, what do you think England

14:45

was like a thousand years ago? Emma's just shown up.

14:48

She's crossed the channel. She's shown up in this new

14:50

country. She doesn't think language. What do you think it's

14:52

like for her? It's not great for foreigners now, isn't

14:54

it? I can't imagine it was brilliant back then. I'm

14:57

going to say she wasn't welcomed with open arms. Also,

15:00

she's very young. She's

15:03

only 17. She's a woman. I

15:05

can't imagine she had a great deal of agency or

15:08

a great deal of authority or Orndy's power. I

15:10

mean, I might be wrong. I'm hoping that eventually

15:12

she comes into her own as she becomes a

15:14

woman. But certainly on moving there, I would

15:16

have thought it would have been a bit

15:18

of a steep learning curve. But Emma's really

15:21

focused on this agency thing. She's after it.

15:23

England at this time is powerful, Elizabeth.

15:25

It's wealthy. Tax rich. It's

15:27

a land of great art and culture,

15:30

intellectuals and beautiful objects. But

15:33

its recent political history, absolute chaos.

15:36

Yeah, absolutely. Because what we call

15:38

England, and we just take England

15:40

for granted, was really made up

15:42

of four main kingdoms, Wessex, which

15:44

is where Ethelred's hanging out, and

15:47

East Anglia and Mercia and Northumbria.

15:49

And they had been independent, and

15:51

they never forgot this. But the

15:53

Viking invasions in the mid-800s totally

15:55

redrew the map, and you end

15:57

up with just the Wessexans. left,

16:00

the Vikings have knocked everybody else off,

16:03

and anybody else who might be left, the West

16:05

Saxons have knocked off. So you end

16:07

up around 900 with

16:09

just one English king left, and

16:11

that's Alfred. And that kicks off

16:14

a whole century where his dynasty

16:17

is trying to make England into one

16:19

kingdom. And it's Alfred's famous

16:21

grandson, Adelstan, who really

16:23

starts to make that happen.

16:26

And it's Adelstan who's the first king

16:28

of the English. And that's not till

16:30

927. And even that falls apart straight

16:32

away, and they've got to try it

16:34

again. You're looking at a space

16:37

that's not securely England. That's

16:39

new. And so when

16:41

we speak of England, Scotland

16:43

is having its own thing going on. It's

16:45

got its own history and its own kings

16:47

and its own drama. Is

16:49

that the same for Wales as well?

16:52

Yes, Scotland and Wales have their own

16:54

thing going on, but the English kings

16:56

would love to make Scotland and Wales

16:58

part of England. Same old, same

17:00

old, right? So England

17:02

in 927 is second stone in very much the

17:04

borders we think of it today. So what's

17:07

interesting is that modern England's geographical boundaries

17:09

are kind of there a thousand years

17:11

ago. But Englishness is

17:14

a project. I think part of that project

17:16

is that in some ways there

17:18

was a sense of being English, but that

17:20

didn't mean they expected to be ruled in

17:22

one kingdom. And they talk in different ways.

17:24

There's lots of different dialects. And

17:26

I think it's also important to remember

17:29

at this point, there's loads of people

17:31

within that territory that the West Saxons

17:33

have made England who aren't

17:35

English speakers. So you have people who speak

17:37

Britannic. So those are people in Cumbria

17:40

and Cornwall and on the

17:42

borders with Wales. And then you've

17:44

got this whole space, the Dain law

17:46

that Alfred and his descendants reincorporated

17:49

into England. So that's Yorkshire, Icinglia,

17:51

the five boroughs of the Midlands,

17:53

where they're speaking north. So it's

17:56

a really multilingual place with

17:59

also these ancient kingdom identities

18:01

going on so it can fall

18:03

apart in numerous directions. So

18:06

it's a place of change. So Emma has walked

18:08

into a pretty much brand new country, pretty much

18:10

brand new identity. She's got to learn a new

18:12

language. She's only 17. Oh, you've got to learn

18:14

another six languages. What are you talking about, learning a

18:16

new language? The poor woman's turned up and they're like,

18:18

what language are you speaking? Oh, you don't know Norse.

18:20

You don't know... She knows Norse. You know Danish. She

18:23

knows Norse. That's her advantage. So Elizabeth,

18:25

how does this marriage work? How do you arrange

18:27

a dynastic marriage in the year 1002? Yeah.

18:30

So I mean, these are

18:32

high politics between really important

18:35

families and there's negotiation between

18:37

families and then there's a

18:39

kind of formal betrothal and

18:41

there has to be giving a

18:43

gift and dowry and only then

18:46

does this young woman travel and

18:48

there's a very public marriage

18:51

ceremony before there's any consummation, anything

18:53

happening in the bedroom, but that's

18:55

really important too. And then

18:57

of course Emma also gets consecrated as Queen, but

18:59

it's not a love match. You

19:01

know, a King doesn't have any choice about his marriage

19:03

either in many ways. So,

19:06

you know, she's been trained as a

19:08

diplomat really. Why does England

19:10

and Normandy, why is this dynastic match

19:12

useful to them? Because they

19:14

both have problems with Vikings in

19:16

the English Channel and the

19:19

Normans have for a long time

19:21

been sheltering the Vikings who are

19:23

attacking England and Ethelred is trying

19:25

to get that situation under control

19:27

by coming into some kind of

19:29

arrangement with Richard II. So

19:32

it's an alliance against the Vikings, but it

19:34

doesn't last. We've had Richard the fearless, we've

19:36

met Ethelred the unready, we've

19:38

now got Emma the Peace Weaver. That's the

19:40

nickname that we give her, Emma the

19:42

Peace Weaver, because by uniting these two power

19:45

bases, she's weaving peace, which is quite charming, I

19:47

think. What would you want your nickname to be

19:50

from outsiders and what do you think would be

19:52

the honest one you would get? God, I mean,

19:54

something like the Peace Weaver would be incredible. Somebody

19:56

that represents unity

19:59

and... somebody that represents something

20:01

calm and you know reason,

20:05

fairness but in truth I think

20:08

my nickname would be Jenny Agro.

20:10

Just the aggravated one would probably

20:12

be my nickname. It's quite catchy

20:14

though, Jenny Agro. Yeah Jenny Agro,

20:17

here she comes, put your earmuffs

20:19

on. Yeah I think

20:21

that would be more like that. So it's good to

20:24

know, you seem very chill today so I'm not getting

20:26

those vibes but you know. Yeah I mean I'm just,

20:28

because I haven't been sold off to some 36 year

20:30

old bloke in another country. Yeah fair enough, that's

20:32

fair. Okay so Elizabeth, does Emma

20:34

the peace weaver succeed in her

20:37

peace weaving mission? Ooh not

20:39

really, it seems actually she stirs up

20:41

more trouble. You go

20:43

girl. It's alleged that

20:45

the Danes attacked Exeter in 1003

20:47

which was part of her dowry

20:49

so it's her city as a

20:52

retaliation for those closer relationships

20:55

between the English and the

20:57

Norman so that's not a good start and

21:00

certainly she had a Reeve with her, her

21:02

senior servant was blamed for this and

21:04

it was also blamed on him being a

21:06

bit French too so we're already twitching

21:08

around about, you know not only are they

21:11

twitching about her being maybe a bit

21:13

Scandinavian, she's also a bit French

21:16

and then Ethelred had massacred

21:18

a whole lot of Danes in 1002

21:21

so that raid on Exeter might also have been

21:23

in retaliation for that.

21:25

I mean yeah I can

21:27

see why massacring is really going to wind

21:29

up people isn't it? It's not cool, it's

21:32

called the St Bryce's Day Massacre, it's a

21:34

very famous moment in medieval history. He basically,

21:36

he rounds up every able-bodied Viking man of

21:39

a certain age and they are slaughtered without

21:41

warning and the trial, his fear is that

21:43

the men who live in England are helping

21:45

the invading Vikings and he slaughtered them all

21:48

and it's horrific. Oh god that's dreadful.

21:51

It's even more dreadful because you've

21:53

got this long established settled Danish

21:55

population in England. There have been people there for

21:57

150 years at least, haven't there? Bishop

22:00

of Canterbury was from one

22:02

of these Danish families. Things get even more

22:04

complicated now, you won't believe this, but Ethelred's

22:07

first wife had been

22:09

called Elf-Givu. Ethelred had been married

22:11

before. And he made Emma

22:13

change her name to Elf-Givu.

22:16

Elf-Givu. It's not as

22:18

catchy. So his first wife dies. He

22:22

marries, he's got a second wife, a young wife, Emma.

22:24

Her name is quite clearly Emma. He's introduced her as

22:27

Emma. She's very much named Emma. And he's

22:29

like, do you know what? How about Elf-Givu?

22:31

Changing it to that

22:33

is just my first wife. Put on

22:35

the dress. Oh, you look just like her. I

22:37

feel like, is that the vibe that you just

22:40

wanted? I mean, it's a very odd thing to

22:42

do to give your dead

22:44

wife's name to your new wife. Is

22:46

this usual? It's a

22:48

sort of an anglication process. Is it sort

22:50

of make her a bit more familiar to

22:52

the English? So Emma was not a traditional

22:54

type of name? Emma's a Viking name. No,

22:57

Emma's a Frankish name. Her father, Richard

22:59

I, was first married to a

23:02

princess, a Frankish princess named Emma

23:04

of Paris. And then Emma

23:06

is born to Richard I and

23:09

Gunnar, his second wife, but she's

23:11

named after his first wife. Right.

23:13

Okay. So Elf-Givu is a good

23:15

name. God, being English is

23:17

so niche, isn't it? This is what

23:20

I'm learning from medieval history, is that

23:22

being English is like about 0.001% of

23:25

the population of this country are actually

23:27

English. It's an idea. It's an idea.

23:29

It's an idea, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So

23:31

Elizabeth Elf-Givu is her new adopter name,

23:33

but she keeps being called Emma in

23:35

certain records. In some records, yeah,

23:37

but she's more often called

23:39

Elf-Givu, which means elf gift too. So you should

23:41

keep that in mind as you're talking about

23:43

her. You've got all these elf gifts

23:46

running around. Does that

23:48

mean gifted by the elves or gifted

23:50

to the elves? That's a good question.

23:52

I think from the elves. Sorry.

23:55

It's so complete and it's a normal idea.

24:00

His name. Said the way as

24:02

up as. A case it normally use name

24:04

else t this build him up what was I

24:06

mean obviously i'm thinking of told him but wouldn't.

24:08

Wouldn't and no one else to be else.

24:10

The sort of magical forest people who are

24:12

powerful but you don't a message them they

24:14

can harm you you can be else shot

24:17

which is which you get us a mystery

24:19

pain like appendicitis they would explain as L

24:21

shot. The elves are to be respects his

24:23

bus I feared Elizabeth Emma has done her

24:25

juicy of marrying the read the unready on

24:27

a not yet ready old have yet to

24:29

be on ready. I don't know what he's

24:31

the same here is Ethel read the seconds

24:33

at say that and as job I suppose

24:35

is to have children to have an hour

24:37

That's what Queens. Of for does seem manage

24:40

this into the she pulled out a prince.

24:42

Oh yes it does and pretty

24:44

quickly. So Edward that are in

24:46

for the confesses gonna turn up

24:48

later was born sometime between ten

24:50

and three internal five and then

24:52

says another son alfred sister to

24:54

and n a spare. House

24:56

the same side. well yes is no limit

24:58

I know said. Yes he nailed

25:00

it and a daughter got decent

25:03

gift of god god he says

25:05

ah lots and is hop yeah

25:07

I the gods gift or not

25:09

my soul on a i ssssss

25:11

our. Edward

25:14

and Alfred says that good sort of military names.

25:16

Of the in those I mean Edward and Alfred. Ah,

25:19

successful military kings, great

25:21

great grandfather, whatever. Alford

25:24

and then his son Edward who pissed

25:26

the Vikings out. So no pressure and

25:28

it might seem obvious to say but

25:30

emus importance as clean comes in part

25:32

from the sunset. See bore. Later

25:34

to descend suggest that when she was

25:36

pregnant with Edward, there was an oath

25:38

sworn that if it's if the child

25:41

was a boy, that he would become

25:43

the king. Which is not a given

25:45

of his time in history. They don't have the

25:47

can harden sauce ruled the first born son is

25:49

automatically kidding. Is that right? Know. Because

25:51

he wants he wants a sudden his the. Strongest

25:53

Lion King. ryan's so he let

25:56

them fight it out be the

25:58

oh really so that was there

26:00

you wasn't like that natural succession for

26:02

your firstborn that you would naturally succeed

26:04

and become heir to the throne because you've got

26:06

twins you've got twin boys Jen haven't you I've

26:09

got twins so they'd have to fight it out

26:11

they'd have to be a wrestling

26:13

match yeah that's

26:15

really interesting so why

26:20

was that decided then because

26:22

the firstborn is just could be anyone could be

26:24

an absolute numpty so you want

26:27

the best a long stay royal best for

26:29

the role why didn't they keep that tradition

26:31

whole firstborn as the Norman's the Normans

26:34

they come in they ruin everything she has an heir

26:36

and a spare Emma they

26:39

are Alfred and Edward I guess that gives

26:41

her a bit more stability and power absolutely

26:43

and she has this sort of lovely Latin

26:45

name yeah she's called con

26:48

la terana regis which means she

26:50

who is at the king's side

26:52

we're gonna watch out for

26:55

that because she's learning a lot about how

26:57

to be king of England which is going

26:59

to teach someone else later interesting let's

27:01

just drop that little hint okay

27:03

so this cozy family scene that

27:05

we've established it's disturbed quite dramatically

27:07

in the year one thousand thirteen

27:10

so if we jump forward ten

27:12

years Jen we get

27:14

another surprise Danish invasion and

27:16

they don't just trash Exeter this time they

27:19

steal the entire kingdom oh my

27:21

goodness yeah Ethel red is booted off the

27:23

throne he loses his throne the new king

27:25

of England has a fantastic name he's called

27:28

Swain forkbeard doesn't just have a great

27:30

name and great facial hair he also

27:32

has Denmark and Norway so this is

27:34

third kingdom and guess

27:36

how long this new mighty imperial

27:39

kings Swain the forkbeard rules England

27:41

for Jen I'm gonna say a

27:44

massively long three

27:46

years five weeks Your

27:56

name's a Can Forkbeard and yeah, he

27:59

drops dead immediately. The a week with been

28:01

oh sure how this you taught his dad says

28:03

stories a full of his horse is crushed by

28:05

his horse and we the could The crucial question

28:07

is Ethel read these not been kills see still

28:09

hanging Ali still hanging around as he gonna run

28:11

out what were his Emma where are her kids

28:13

were is Ethel whether this point. So Emma

28:15

and the kids those to rates

28:17

in Normandy of course, and Ethel

28:19

read follows. And. It's hard to

28:21

know if this was a temporary tactical

28:23

retreat. I mean, it couldn't have been

28:25

fun hanging. Out for esl. read where he

28:28

doesn't speak the language. I did. I. Know

28:30

it's to rise. I can speak through

28:32

Emma seats for the table. the time.

28:34

Yes. Play that out over his head.

28:37

He's off their in Normandy. We don't

28:39

know if it's tactical retreat or an

28:41

abdication. But. After Spain sudden

28:44

death the question arises city

28:46

make a comeback for his

28:48

fame. Son could eat didn't

28:50

succeed. He would think with

28:52

that kind of absolutely apoplectic

28:54

shame or thing knock. Sauce.

28:56

By fuck they'd be reliant. Listen, I've gotta

28:58

hide and for been for got around that

29:00

for the. Candidate I my size

29:03

to somebody. Does he go Now I'm

29:05

going back. To

29:07

back Keen to get away from his

29:09

in law school but the Danes have

29:11

chosen. Can eat a Hussein's. Son

29:13

so there's a whole tussle between

29:15

can eat an esl read and

29:17

also it comes out on top

29:19

temporarily and ten fourteen but then

29:21

he dies into and sixteen. And

29:24

when he dies, he's replaced

29:26

by his oldest surviving son.

29:29

Who's. Edmunds Ironside really good

29:31

name. Really good name but. Remember

29:33

he is Not Amazon his son

29:36

of a D Soon number one.

29:38

Remember her? Oh I'm so sorry.

29:40

So I got confused. Between the

29:42

thought Edwards and the other Edward his

29:44

Edward the Confessor as Edmunds illnesses as

29:47

an ebay and harden I came oil

29:49

which makes a sound like a team

29:51

to Texas. So new age Greg sorry

29:53

I was was a new business yes

29:56

other illicit substances me. that m

29:58

as oldest son edward He's only

30:00

11 or 12, so he's got no hope

30:02

of being the candidate chosen to take on

30:04

the Danish fleet. And all this

30:06

time, we're not actually sure where Irma is. Is

30:09

she in London? Is she in Normandy? And

30:12

what role she played in

30:14

opposing Knut? Their legends

30:16

told later that she led heroic resistance.

30:19

Who knows? And so Knut

30:21

and Edmund are battling it out. And

30:24

after the Battle of Ashdown in 1016,

30:26

they agreed to divide the kingdom. But

30:29

five weeks later, Edmund died. Hang

30:31

on. Five weeks later again.

30:33

Suspicious, isn't it? What is wrong with these guys?

30:35

Once is careless. Choice is a pattern. That feels

30:37

like a sort of... This is my new conspiracy theory. Every

30:40

five weeks, you know, the evil England. Oh,

30:42

okay. All right. So Edmund

30:45

are inside. He's dead suddenly. Five weeks later, the

30:47

Knut grabs the whole kingdom. And

30:56

this then leaves Emma exposed

30:58

because her husband is

31:00

dead. Her children are threats. She's a

31:02

threat. So is

31:04

that something that Knut is

31:07

worried about? I've heard of

31:09

this guy. I've heard of King Knut. I've got a

31:11

feeling he's not a guy to be messed with. I'm

31:14

hoping you're going to tell me, Elizabeth,

31:16

that Emma goes gun blazing and takes

31:18

her 12-year-old son and points him

31:20

under her armpit. And away they go and takes on

31:22

King Knut. Is that what happened? No. So

31:26

they go off to hide out in

31:28

Normandy. Oh, what? So Edward and his

31:30

little brother Alfred head off to Normandy.

31:33

Knut is trouble because what he does

31:35

is he murders another prince named Eadwig,

31:37

whose Ethelred's last remaining son was Elky

31:40

Fu the first. So

31:42

he's trying to get rid of all these people. And

31:45

then Edmund Ironside had young children

31:48

when he died. And

31:50

his infant son ends up

31:52

in Central Europe, where he

31:54

eventually marries a princess from Kiev.

31:57

Emma was rightly worried

31:59

about it. Her own sons

32:01

and she. Didn't send them as far away

32:03

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32:38

Malcolm Gladwell Here, the Season under

32:40

visions history for looking at the

32:42

dreaded phrase news Hollywood And here.

32:45

One. The describes the Purgatory were

32:47

once promising scripts go to

32:50

tie it up and. Call

32:53

that every minute of and smash them

32:55

puppets be a project to probe their

32:57

hard because it ever got. The

33:00

stories were so good and could

33:02

use some of them and revisionist

33:04

history. Lesson. On the i

33:06

heard radio app apple pie cas or wherever

33:08

you listen to. The.

33:14

So what do you think? Emma does

33:16

next? And her husband is dead. The

33:18

man who defeated her husband is dead.

33:20

The son of Batman is now the

33:22

King of England. What he think she

33:24

does. Well I imagine she

33:26

tries to find an alliance. And

33:29

maybe she tries to find

33:31

an alliance by marrying somebody

33:33

that could help her get

33:35

her son on the throne.

33:37

Nice. So he does. This

33:41

so now I'm going to be either.

33:43

Is she marries right? Yeah I k

33:45

say we've mentioned his name a lot

33:47

email we answered it. Still,

33:50

Married to need to sit. on

33:53

a young assess assess oh my

33:55

goodness sun is out there are

33:57

some attacks yeah she marries can

34:00

He sounds very rugged. Is

34:03

this a marriage of, again, so I imagine

34:05

this is a marriage of convenience, but is it also

34:07

a marriage of anything more? Elizabeth,

34:10

tell us, because this is one of

34:12

history's sort of great surprise

34:15

romances, I think. Yeah. It

34:18

doesn't start out that way. She

34:20

marries Knut, and there's

34:22

two different accounts of that.

34:24

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle just says,

34:26

very unceremoniously, Knut had her

34:28

fetched to be his bride. The

34:30

Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. In the end. Oh,

34:33

please. I don't trust them. Okay. But

34:36

later, Emma has her own

34:38

account written about all that

34:41

went on, and she claims that Knut

34:43

wooed her. But it's also

34:45

fun. You know, earlier, we were kind

34:47

of squeamish that Emma was so young

34:49

when she married the older Ethelred. Now

34:51

the tables are turned. She's

34:53

a teenager, and she's in her 30s. She's

34:56

a cougar. Oh, my goodness. Great. Listen,

35:00

we can't have double standards, but let's do

35:02

it anyway. So

35:04

she's bagged herself a young Nordic

35:07

man, a young Viking. A

35:09

teenage boy, really. Right. Okay.

35:13

So, I mean, look, I don't want

35:15

to make huge generalizations here, but I'm

35:17

imagining quite easy to manipulate, Elizabeth. Am

35:19

I right? Well, keep listening. Yeah, she's

35:21

got more power now. She's

35:24

much more sophisticated. She's a

35:26

woman of the world. Yes. Yes. She

35:29

has things to teach him. Yes, right. Yes. She's

35:32

been a queen already. She's a mother. She's

35:34

lived in two countries. She knows how stuff works. She's

35:36

speaking a lot of languages. Remind me again.

35:38

So this is how many years? This is

35:40

1016, is it? Yeah, 1016. So

35:43

1016, she, Ethel, whatever his

35:45

face is gone, bye-bye, all those have. And

35:48

now she's with the King Knut.

35:50

Her second king? Her second

35:52

king. Yummers. And so they

35:55

are going to now rule,

35:58

presumably, England. Not

36:00

Normandy as well. Do they have Normandy?

36:03

No, he hasn't got Normandy. He's got

36:05

Scandinavian territory. So he's got Norway and

36:07

was it Denmark? And England. So

36:09

Norway, Denmark and England. This is incredible scenes.

36:11

She's done so well. And

36:13

now she's also in a position

36:15

where she has much more power

36:17

and influence than she had in

36:20

her previous marriage. Absolutely. No, and

36:22

we credit her alongside an Archbishop

36:24

called Wulfsten with in a way

36:26

teaching Knut how to be an

36:28

English king. You have to

36:30

write law codes. You have to write

36:32

letters. You have to strike coins. You

36:34

have to behave in a certain way towards the

36:36

church. And she's there to help

36:38

him and to explain it to him in Danish.

36:41

I love that he is reliant on her

36:43

to translate a lot of stuff because honestly,

36:45

she could say anything and he's not going

36:47

to know. So is this a happy relationship?

36:52

Well, there is a slight catch. Oh, OK. Knut,

36:55

the teenage boy, already married. Wait,

36:59

sorry, what sort of married? Sort

37:01

of. And also guess what his wife's called? Oh,

37:03

my God. It's not called Emma, is it? Elsiezy.

37:05

I thought that was going

37:08

to be... Wait a second. I thought it was an

37:10

English name. So

37:12

now we've got three Alskeefus. So this

37:14

is Elskeefus 3. I

37:17

can't keep up with the Alskeefus. I never heard

37:19

of that name and now this says... They're coming

37:21

through. That's fantastic. This is

37:23

a northern, a Mercien. Midlands, yeah.

37:26

A Brummie, a Brummie Alskeefu. Exactly. Right,

37:29

OK. Wow, three Alskeefus in a row. And

37:31

why is he married her? Because he's

37:34

young. What's he gaining from that

37:36

marriage? Well, he's coming into

37:38

England from the Trent. So having

37:40

a power base in

37:42

the North Midlands is really important to

37:44

him. And she comes from a family

37:47

that had been kind of disaffected during

37:49

Ethelred's reign. So it's a good power

37:51

base for him, that early alliance. And

37:54

they have two sons, Svein,

37:57

another Svein, and Harold. But she, Elskeefus, is a very

37:59

good power base. Ughifu doesn't have the

38:01

same political cachet that Emma has. And

38:04

so since 1017, Knut

38:07

sidelines Ughifu in order

38:09

to marry Emma. But he

38:11

doesn't set her aside. She's

38:14

not repudiated. And in fact, in 1030,

38:16

she's sent with her son, Spain, to

38:19

rule in Norway. But

38:21

she's never consecrated Queen, whereas Emma

38:23

is consecrated Queen. That makes her

38:25

tough wife. To be honest, the women

38:27

in the story are doing surprisingly well.

38:29

All considered, a lot of the men

38:31

are dying off her horrifically or accidentally.

38:34

Every five weeks, it seems. So

38:38

is Knut the king of Emma's heart? If

38:40

you read Emma's account of it, which

38:43

also had Knut having to

38:45

woo her, definitely she

38:48

talks about them taking delight in

38:50

each other. Ooh. And

38:52

this is firsthand from Emma.

38:54

We're going to talk more about that

38:57

later. She does leave a really interesting

38:59

account. But just because it's firsthand from

39:01

Emma doesn't necessarily believe it. Yes.

39:05

Okay. They are married until 1035, nearly 20 years.

39:09

And Knut's death in 1035 leaves

39:11

the yet more contenders scrabbling for the throne.

39:13

There's no peaceful handover of power here, Jen.

39:16

Wow, she's outliving a lot of these men.

39:18

Yeah, yeah. I mean, men don't

39:20

live long in medieval England, do they? So

39:22

was he murdered? No, he dies of

39:24

old, he dies of sort of just normal things

39:27

that kill your age. Okay. So he's not

39:29

murdered, he's not bumped off. He's a very

39:31

powerful king, Knut. He's often called Knut

39:33

the Great, which is rare in English history. So

39:36

the wannabes in waiting, Elizabeth, who have we got?

39:38

You mentioned Harold. Is that Harold

39:41

Harefoot? Yeah, but we forgot

39:43

to talk about Emma and Knut's

39:45

son. Oh, of course. Yes.

39:48

Part of the reason she and Knut are so happy is they've had

39:50

a son called Har the Knut. Har

39:53

the Knut. It's spelled hard. Har

39:55

the Knut. Yeah, it's spelled Har-

39:58

We mean hard nut. Oh, Har- half

40:00

a canoe, which means

40:02

hardcore canoes. So if you imagine canoeing with

40:04

hardcore, that's this guy. He's canoeing times two.

40:09

He's canoeing steroids. Okay. I

40:12

think that's what they hoped for. That's not

40:14

what they got. Anyway.

40:17

So they've got half a canoe world

40:19

floating around as well. And then you've

40:21

got Harold in Spain, but you've also

40:24

got Edward and Alfred. You've got five

40:26

of these. Oh no. All

40:29

making a play. So,

40:31

you know, when Canute dies,

40:34

it's absolute chaos and slaughter

40:36

of the would-be kings. I mean,

40:38

look, do we all get

40:40

to a point where we go, do you know what? I

40:43

mean, do you want to be king? Let's just,

40:45

I've got this lovely house in all these. Let's

40:47

hang there and have a lovely time. You never

40:50

have to work. You can get married if

40:52

you want, if you don't. I mean, what is this desperate

40:54

urge to be king of this country when it just

40:56

means that you're probably going to be dead in five weeks. I don't

40:58

know if you've seen what happens to these other guys. I

41:00

feel the same, but they do seem determined

41:02

to be king. All right. Talk us through

41:05

the slaughter, Elizabeth. Who survived this bloodthirsty Royal?

41:10

First, you get Harold

41:12

on the throne. That's Canute's

41:14

second son with Elphgefu

41:17

of North Hamlet. Oh, right.

41:19

Sorry. Right. So, and

41:22

Elphgefu returns from Norway

41:24

in order to back her

41:26

son. Meanwhile, Emma

41:30

is backing her son, Hae the Canute,

41:32

but he's off in Denmark. So,

41:35

Harold comes out on top

41:38

of the stage. Emma is totally stressed and

41:40

buggers off to Flanders to get out of

41:43

the way. Right. I don't

41:45

blame her. But she's really rooting for Hae the Canute

41:47

to return. She circulates

41:50

all sorts of rumors about Harold

41:53

not being the true son of

41:55

Elphgefu and Canute, but

41:57

instead a bastard born to serving

42:00

maid, and that the father is

42:02

a humble cobbler. So these rumors

42:04

are like, not only is he

42:06

not Knutson, he's not even El

42:08

Kifu's son. So what does El

42:10

Kifu do at this point? She

42:12

must be like, how dare you

42:14

think that my son knows? Yeah.

42:17

She didn't leave us an account,

42:19

but it's really interesting, this use

42:22

of slander and gossip.

42:24

Real health-wise, it's medieval England, isn't it?

42:27

Yeah, it's too big. But it's her political

42:29

tool. I mean, it's still... Undercutting the

42:31

legitimacy of the rival boy. Leaking a

42:33

story to the Sussex, whatever it was,

42:35

to the Wessex press. But we're

42:37

still not done. Okay. Keep going, they've gone.

42:40

We're still not through the chaos, sorry. So

42:43

there's not only this Harold and Haida

42:45

Knut thing going on with Harold on

42:47

the throne. Some sources

42:49

say that Emma plotted against

42:52

Alfred and Edward too, that

42:54

she lures them back to

42:56

England, her own boys, in

42:59

order to have them disposed of in favor of

43:01

Haida Knut. Wait

43:03

a second. And Haida Knut, Edward and Alfred

43:06

did land in southern England in 1036 with

43:08

an army of mercenaries

43:13

hoping to claim the throne. But

43:15

Alfred soon was captured in Guildford,

43:17

blinded, and he ended up dead

43:19

in Ely. How

43:21

did he get from Guildford to Ely? I thought I want

43:23

to know. I know. So

43:26

Emma blames Harold, Harold blames Emma, and

43:28

then there's a guy named Godwin who

43:30

gets a lot of flack for it

43:32

as well. Who knows? Yeah, he's the

43:34

earl of Guildford, isn't he? He's the guy who

43:37

captured them. What is her

43:39

motivation for trying to dispose of her

43:41

two first-born sons? She really

43:43

wants Haida Knut on the throne. And it's

43:45

not clear. She claims that she didn't lure

43:48

them back. But she spends a lot of

43:50

energy claiming she didn't lure them back, which

43:52

makes you think she does protest in that.

43:54

Is this countergossip? Is this a retaliation for her

43:56

spreading the gossip about the other guy being the

43:58

son of a servant? girl or whatever

44:01

it is or a cobbler. I mean I could get El

44:03

Skivu luring these young men across to

44:05

have them murdered but if your own like

44:07

it just I don't know just feels like

44:09

it goes against the instinct of any mother

44:11

to murder your own children. Yeah. Just wild.

44:14

So Alfred is blinded and dies of his

44:16

injuries later or else Edward survives and will

44:18

become Edward the Confessor and Harold Hairshot,

44:23

Harthacanute are still scobbling out. So

44:25

but Harold has taken the throne.

44:27

Yes. But Harthacanute is going I'm

44:29

gonna take it from you. Yeah but

44:31

it takes a long time to come

44:33

back from Denmark is the problem but

44:36

he does come back and Harold Hairshot

44:38

dies and Harthacanute becomes king and

44:40

he digs up Harold's body from his

44:42

grave and has it thrown in the marsh. Oh!

44:45

So petty. It's

44:47

a harsh in the marsh. Yeah. How many weeks later

44:49

is this Elizabeth? No this is 1041. We're

44:55

a bit further down the line. So he manages to

44:58

hold on to the throne for six years Harold. Yeah.

45:00

Is that right? Yeah. 1035 to 1041. You're doing very

45:02

well for the dates here. You're

45:04

doing better than I am. I've

45:06

written some very very scratchy notes

45:08

down here which I am constantly

45:10

looking at to make myself look vaguely like I

45:13

know what's going on because I actually don't. So

45:15

Harold dies. Yep. 1041 from just general

45:20

just general medievalness.

45:23

So we're left now with either

45:25

Edward the Confessor and

45:29

Harthacanute. That's right. Yeah.

45:31

Is there somebody else that

45:34

I'm missing? Swain or no? No. Swain? Swain

45:37

kind of disappears. Oh forget Swain. Good for

45:39

you Swain. Go and live your life there.

45:41

Yeah yeah just go and become a

45:43

holiday rep in Iona or something. Yeah

45:45

why not? So we're really only looking

45:48

at Harthacanute and not Harold. Edward. He's

45:50

dead but Edward the Confessor. Okay and

45:52

so who now is Emma reaching for?

45:55

Well Emma two of her sons Harthacanute's

45:57

on the throne but it seems that

45:59

Harthacanute is is not well. And

46:02

Emma persuades him to invite

46:04

Edward back to co-rule

46:06

with him. So you

46:08

have Heide Knut and Edward as co-kings.

46:11

At this point, is Edward going, mum, you already asked me

46:13

across once and it didn't bode well for Alfred. Do you

46:15

know what? I think I'm going to swerve this and I'm

46:17

going to say where I am. Or does

46:20

he go, no, you're my mum and

46:22

I trust you? He definitely doesn't trust

46:24

her, but he does come back and

46:26

Heide Knut and Edward rule together. But

46:29

if you look at what Emma has to

46:31

say about it, Heide Knut, Edward and

46:33

Emma rule together. Oh, okay.

46:35

I'm getting involved. Yep.

46:39

She sounds like one of those mums

46:41

that will be always involved. Yeah. But

46:44

you're not marrying her, are you? So

46:46

wow, she's pretty powerful. I mean, not

46:48

likeable, but very... She's come

46:50

a long way from the 17 year old.

46:52

She's really worked out all the machinations of

46:54

being at that level quite

46:56

quickly, really. How old

46:58

is she at this point, Elizabeth? I'm guessing 56.

47:01

56? Wow. Again, that's like 128 in medieval Europe. She's

47:03

like, I just want to

47:07

tell her life. And she is like,

47:10

in terms of the royal family in England, is

47:12

the longest serving member.

47:15

So is she liked by the

47:17

English? That's

47:19

a good question. She's not liked by

47:21

Edward, who deprives her of

47:24

her wealth and moves her out.

47:26

And the English accent chronicle has something to say about

47:29

that as well. He says that he

47:31

got rid of her because she formerly had

47:33

been very hard to him, her

47:35

son, in that she did less for

47:38

him than he wished both before and

47:40

after he became a king. And we end

47:42

up with Edward the Confessor becoming king. He

47:45

is the guy who accidentally brings about the whole 1066

47:48

biotapestry, battler Hastings thing that

47:51

you studied at school when you were. Yes, we're full circle.

47:53

Back to the start of the episode. I know we're going

47:55

to talk about this in the nuance window, but just where

47:57

do we get our sources from? Is it the Anglo-Saxon chronicle?

47:59

Anything else? the vital source we need to know about. There's

48:01

later 11th and 12th century writers, but

48:04

the text that we've been talking about

48:06

that's been lurking behind is

48:08

a text called the Encomium Amiragina,

48:10

which just means, that sounds very

48:13

fancy, it just means in praise

48:15

of Queen Emma. Written

48:17

by, there we go, she comes

48:20

in this text. It's

48:22

written in Latin, which is a really interesting

48:24

reminder that you can have a Latin text

48:27

that you can't read because people can read

48:29

it to you in your own language. And

48:32

Latin's especially useful when there's lots of

48:34

different languages floating around. Yes, it's

48:37

the lingua franca of the educated classes and the

48:39

church, isn't it? So if you write it in

48:41

Latin, the important people can read it. But

48:43

she can't read her own autobiography. But

48:46

actually, it's not her autobiography. This is

48:48

what's, it's a story about Fane Canute

48:50

and Hither Canute from her perspective.

48:53

And she got someone in from the outside

48:55

from Flanders to write it. And

48:58

it's full of really wild lies,

49:00

including that Edward is Canute's

49:02

son. Okay. Which

49:05

nobody believed, especially Edward. So we don't

49:07

even necessarily believe that this was a

49:09

wild romance between her and Canute either.

49:12

Yeah, right. It's a great

49:14

story. I mean, we've praised Emma's

49:16

political operating skills, but the sad end of

49:18

the story is that Edward is terrified of

49:21

her and acts against her. As soon as

49:23

he comes to power, he shuts her down,

49:25

doesn't he, Elizabeth? Absolutely. That's

49:27

when he takes away her treasure the whole bit.

49:30

She's totally sidelined. Yeah. So what happens to Emma

49:32

then? Where does she end up? Is it

49:34

a kind of nunnery type situation? No, I

49:36

don't think she lives in a nunnery, which is

49:38

unusual. Lots of them do. Maybe

49:40

they didn't want her, but she's

49:42

retired to Winchester. So she's poor

49:45

and she's living in Winchester. Not

49:47

poor. But she doesn't have the

49:50

wild amounts of treasure that she

49:52

thinks would be appropriate to her status. And

49:55

they're tending Canute's grave. She dies in

49:57

1052 and is buried in the forest.

50:00

next to Knut. But there is

50:02

an epitaph, there is a poetic

50:04

epitaph for her which

50:07

suggests that she had a reputation that

50:09

wasn't all bad and the poet

50:11

writes, she had kings as

50:13

sons and kings as husbands. This

50:16

is the theme. She shone forth

50:18

in the glory of her progeny

50:20

of kings. She excelled in virtue,

50:22

even the ranks of her glorious

50:24

ancestors. That's pretty good.

50:26

It's not bad on the tombstone, isn't it? So she

50:28

died 1052. We think

50:31

she was probably in her mid to late 60s, we're

50:33

not totally certain. She did very well. Did very well,

50:35

as you said, lived to 325 in modern people in

50:38

dog years. She was buried next to Knut in

50:40

the church. This is the St. Swithan's church in

50:42

Winchester. So she was buried side by side with

50:45

her second husband who had been her mortal enemy.

50:48

But she obviously loved because she

50:50

did so much to elevate

50:52

their son. She did so much to

50:55

make sure that whatever the reality was,

50:57

that everyone believed that they had this

50:59

love match. That was really important to

51:01

her, even to the point where she wanted

51:04

to be buried next to him. So yeah, it

51:06

was obviously an important relationship for Emma. Whether or

51:08

not it was happy, we would guess we will

51:10

never know. But she

51:13

felt like it was important. I mean,

51:15

she's quite the woman,

51:17

really. I'm kind of amazed

51:19

that I've never, never

51:22

heard of her. Never heard

51:24

of her, given how much influence and

51:26

power that she had during

51:28

that time. Hey, when's

51:30

Netflix going to be commissioning this drama?

51:32

That's what I want to see. Exactly.

51:34

That's just what I was thinking. Guys,

51:37

tap me up. I'll be there. But you

51:39

want to win? This

51:41

is

51:47

where Jen and I learn how to spell Elskeevu.

51:49

It's got a lot more vowels than you think.

51:52

And we give two minutes to Professor Elizabeth to

51:54

tell us something we need to know about Emma

51:56

of Normandy. Elizabeth, without much further ado, take it

51:58

away, please. to talk

52:00

about is how Emma's political power

52:02

is presented in that encomium that

52:05

we've been talking about, that account of Fane,

52:07

Knut, and Har the Knut, that

52:09

she had commissioned to protect her interests

52:11

when it all fell apart. And

52:14

we've been worrying that this has all

52:16

been about the men in Emma's life

52:18

and not about her. And

52:20

this was on her mind too, and she had something

52:22

to say about it. At the

52:24

end of the encomium, she's depicted

52:27

as co-ruling with Har the Knut

52:29

and Edward, not behind the scenes.

52:31

And indeed, if you look at the

52:34

illustration that comes at the beginning of

52:36

the encomium, it is Emma sitting on

52:38

the throne and Har the Knut and

52:40

Edward peeking out from behind a curtain.

52:43

But it gets better. The monk who

52:45

wrote the encomium was really learned, and

52:47

his history is partly based on Virgil's

52:49

Aeneid. Emma can't read

52:51

Latin, but doesn't mean she doesn't

52:54

know the stories that are in

52:56

Latin texts. The encomium parallels Knut

52:58

to the mythical Aeneas who sailed

53:00

across the Mediterranean to found Rome

53:02

from the ruins of Troy way

53:05

back in the midst of time. The

53:07

encomium also compares Knut to Julius

53:09

Caesar, who conquered Gaul, made it

53:12

to Britain, defeated Antony and Cleopatra,

53:14

but ended up murdered by Brutus. But

53:16

in all of this, it's Emma who

53:18

was the survivor, and she's not left

53:20

out of this Aeneid business. The

53:22

encomiest compares her to Octavian,

53:25

that is Augustus, the first

53:27

Roman emperor, and the man

53:29

Virgil wrote for. While dead Knut

53:31

and dying Knut were all in the

53:34

past, she was the present and the

53:36

future. And all this is really

53:38

interesting take. It's Emma's take on what it

53:40

meant to be a wife and mother of

53:43

kings, and it definitely wasn't

53:45

about being the power behind the throne.

53:48

The encomiest wasn't bound by gender

53:50

roles in imagining her power. Emma

53:53

is mother and emperor. Oh,

53:55

fantastic. Thank you. That is really

53:57

fantastic. Thank you. Emma is Octavian.

54:00

Octavian is the heir who takes over

54:02

from Caesar, becomes the first emperor and

54:05

actually is the greatest

54:07

of the Roman emperors. So actually

54:09

Emma herself is saying, yep, that's me. Yeah.

54:12

And do you know what? Fair play

54:14

to her because I really believe that

54:17

given how little power women were allowed,

54:20

she understood what her influence was and she wanted

54:22

people to know. I'm the one telling these guys

54:24

what to do. I mean, whether like, well, I

54:26

guess we'll never know whether that was a reality

54:28

or not, but that is, I can imagine that

54:30

that was a big part of her truth anyway.

54:32

Yeah. It's a motherhood story, but it's

54:34

also a political agency story. You said agency at the beginning

54:37

of the episode. Yeah, for women, you know, and

54:39

also I think it's interesting that a woman of

54:41

such influence has been forgotten. So

54:43

thank you for talking about her and bringing her

54:45

up. It's fantastic. So what do you know now? All

54:49

right. Well,

54:54

it's time now for the, so what do you know now? This is

54:56

out there. This

55:00

is our quickfire quiz for Jen, who clearly

55:02

is, I mean, how are you feeling about

55:04

this? You have taken more notes than any

55:06

comedian we've ever had on the show. Yes,

55:08

but can I read them? I mean, there's

55:10

a couple of things here. One thing just

55:12

says Regis. I don't know what that means.

55:14

That means King in Latin. Okay, right. She's

55:16

a noise. All right. I've got 10 questions

55:18

for you. Question one. Where was

55:20

Emma born? Probably in the year 985. She

55:24

was born in Normandy

55:26

in the Capetions. You remember

55:29

the Capetions. Very good. Capetions.

55:31

Yeah, she wasn't technically Capetion, but well done for

55:33

remembering it. Yeah, Normandy is correct. Question two. Which

55:36

unlucky English king did Emma marry in the year 1002? She

55:40

married Ethel Red, what

55:42

was his name? Ethel Redby.

55:44

Ethel Redby, the unready. Yes,

55:47

very good. Well done. You're

55:49

like a lawyer in court here checking

55:51

your brief. Looking over my reading boxes.

55:53

Question three. Name

55:55

two of Emma's five children from her

55:57

two marriages. I mean Alfred and

55:59

Ethel. Yeah, very good. You could

56:01

have God Gifu, Harthakannut and Gunhilda as

56:03

well. Question four, Emma married two kings,

56:05

both of whom had previous wives, named

56:07

what? Oh gosh, um,

56:10

Alskeet-fu. Yep, well done. Question

56:12

five, what were the two competing stories

56:14

told about how Emma and Kanhut got

56:16

together? I think she had one version and

56:18

they had another. One was that she was fetched.

56:20

Yes. And the other was that

56:23

she was wooed. Very good. Well done. You got it. Question

56:26

six, what scandalous rumour

56:28

did Emma allegedly circulate to

56:30

undermine Harold Harefoot's reign? Not

56:32

only was he illegitimate, but that Alskeet-fu, the

56:35

other one, as she would always be known,

56:37

it was actually a cobbler's wife that

56:40

was the mother. Yeah, very good. Well remembered.

56:42

Question seven, when Emma's son Harthakannut became king

56:44

in 1040, what did he do

56:46

to the body of his half-brother Harold, who had

56:48

recently been buried? He dug it up and chucked

56:51

it in the marsh. He did, the harsh marsh. The

56:53

harsh marsh. Question eight,

56:55

upon becoming king, what did Edward the Confessor

56:57

do to his terrifying mother? He

57:00

didn't trust her, so he banished her

57:02

to Winchester, where he obviously left her

57:04

enough money to live on, but took

57:06

away all her riches. You

57:09

think so? Wow. Question nine, Queen Emma was

57:11

buried next to her second husband Kanhut, in

57:13

which city in Hampshire? Winchester. And

57:15

this for a perfect turn, what was the

57:17

encomium? Am I red in the eye? That's

57:20

its Latin name. It was written by a

57:22

Flanders man in Latin to sort

57:24

of say that she, Emma,

57:26

was great, a bit like

57:28

Octavius, the son of Julius

57:30

Caesar. Yeah, the nephew of Julius

57:32

Caesar, but well done. Brilliant. Yeah, brilliant. Incredible. Ten

57:34

out of ten, Joan Brista. Oh my

57:37

goodness, I am so bad at quizzes, but it turns out when you've got

57:39

it all written down, you can get ten out of ten.

57:42

You did very, very well. Thank you. And

57:45

you were giving me Flanders man and all

57:47

sorts of extra information. Well done. And listener,

57:49

for more consequential context, following on from Emma

57:51

and Edward the Confessor, you can check out

57:53

our episode on the Baya Tapestry, which is

57:55

a really fun one with Lusandas. And for

57:57

Powerhouse Mums, we've got episodes on Eleanor of

57:59

Akitaine. and Agrippina the Younger, you don't

58:01

want to mess with either of those. And remember,

58:03

if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review,

58:05

share the show with your friends, subscribe to Your

58:07

Dead To Me on BBC Sound so you never

58:09

miss an episode. I'd just like to say a

58:11

huge thank you to our guests in History Corner

58:13

from the University of York. We had the incredible

58:15

Professor Elizabeth Tyler. Thank you, Elizabeth. Oh, thank you

58:18

for having me. It was a blast. I hope

58:20

Emma is now everyone's favourite emperor.

58:22

Oops, Queen. And

58:26

in Comedy Corner, we have the brilliant Jen Brister. Thank you, Jen.

58:28

Oh, Greg, thanks for having me. I've really enjoyed it. It was

58:30

lovely. I'm 10 out of 10. You pulled out the bags there.

58:32

I know. Listen, I'm going to be carrying that around with me

58:34

for the rest of the day. I'm just going to be saying

58:37

10 out of 10 Jen. Get

58:40

it printed on a t-shirt. Yeah, exactly. And to you

58:42

lovely listener, join me next time as we fetch, or

58:44

should that be woo, another enticing

58:46

historical topic. But for now, I'm off to

58:48

go and grow myself an awesome fork beard.

58:50

Bye! Bye! What

59:29

did it take to be crowned king in medieval Scotland?

59:31

Well, you had to get your hands on the

59:33

throne. That was a really dangerous business. And

59:35

then you had to keep the crown on

59:37

your head and keep your head on your

59:39

body. It was pretty brutal. He has to

59:41

defend the kingdom against these would-be usurpers. It's

59:43

a rebellion. If you wanted your family to

59:45

stay on the throne, you need to be

59:47

just as effective in the bedroom as on

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Revisionist History, we're looking at the dreaded

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