0:00

This is the BBC. A

0:30

firm yes to start. Or

0:36

tap the banner to go to monday.com. No

1:00

purchase necessary. And at 11.59 E.T. on 24.24. Open

1:03

to legal residence at the 50 U.S. and D.C. 18

1:05

years of age or older. Sponsor as 1-800-FLOWERS-INC.

1:07

For free entry method official rules, visit www.1-800-FLOWERS.COM

1:09

slash sweeps. BBC

1:15

Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

1:20

Hello, and welcome to You're Dead To Me,

1:22

the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history

1:24

seriously. My name is Greg Jenner.

1:26

I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster.

1:28

Today we're jumping into our Ford model

1:30

team and motoring back to 19th century

1:32

America to learn all about the brilliantly

1:35

successful black hair care entrepreneur, Madam C.J.

1:37

Walker. And to help us, we have

1:39

two very special guests. In history corner,

1:41

she's the L. Herbert Ballou University Professor

1:43

of Africana Studies at Brown University in

1:45

America. She researches the cultural

1:47

and racial implications of beauty, fashion and adornment,

1:50

as well as race, capitalism and education. You

1:52

may have read one of her many books, including

1:54

Hair Raising, Beauty, Culture and African American Women. It's

1:57

Professor No-Lee-Way Rooks. Welcome to Lee-Way. Thank you so

1:59

much. much for having me. Absolute pleasure

2:01

to have you here and in comedy corner she's

2:03

an award-winning comedian and writer. You'll have heard her

2:06

loads on BBC Radio 4 and on all the

2:08

podcasts including The Guilty Feminist and her own show

2:10

Keeping Athena Company. You may have seen her on

2:12

the telly on Mock the Week and of course

2:15

you'll remember her from her starring roles in our

2:17

previous episodes about the Haitian Revolution, Matsumusa and Injinka

2:19

of Indongo Matamba. It's Athena Kaplanu. Welcome back Athena.

2:21

Four times lucky. I know, thank you for having

2:24

me back. Thank you. Well we

2:26

love having you on. We discovered last time round

2:28

you self-identify as a history nerd.

2:30

I do yes but now I'm afraid

2:32

you're going to ask me questions aren't

2:34

you to make me prove it. Why

2:36

not us? Why not us? Why not

2:39

us? Yeah, say we're on American history

2:41

so I'm curious are you comfortable in

2:43

19th century American history, 20th century American

2:45

history? I'm gonna say you've made a

2:47

mistake today. You've hired two experts. Oh

2:49

no. I have seen the

2:52

Netflix account of Madam C.J. Walker's

2:54

life with Octavia Spencer so I kind of feel

2:56

like that no one's gonna be funny today. It

2:58

would just be two people you know everything about

3:00

her life. Sorry. I

3:03

guess I'll try and be funny. I don't know. So

3:05

what do you know? This

3:12

is the So What Do You Know? This is where I

3:14

have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might

3:16

know about today's subject. If you're listening from the US, hello

3:19

welcome, thank you, you're probably going to

3:21

know about Madam C.J. Walker. I think she's quite

3:23

a big deal stateside but I

3:25

think probably less well known outside of America.

3:27

If you're a fan of the Guinness World

3:29

Records you might know that Madam C.J. Walker

3:31

was the first American woman to be a

3:34

self-made millionaire. But how did Madam

3:36

C.J. Walker rise from rags to riches? What

3:38

did you splash the cash on? And

3:41

when exactly did Jesus Christ himself get into

3:43

the haircare business? Let's find out. So

3:46

Professor Noliewe, we don't

3:48

meet many babies called Madam so that's not

3:50

going to be her name at birth. So

3:53

who was she and what was her origin story

3:55

please? Yes, no, she

3:57

was not named Madam at birth. She's actually...

4:00

named Sarah, Sarah Breedlove. And she

4:02

was born in December of 1867

4:04

in Delta, Louisiana. Her

4:08

family were sharecroppers, which

4:11

was a system that meant that they farmed

4:13

the land they lived on and then paid

4:15

rent to the people who actually owned the

4:17

land. When she was born, she was

4:19

the only one who was not born into slavery.

4:22

She was the first one in her family that

4:24

was actually born free and

4:26

is considered a US citizen

4:28

at birth. And her birthday

4:30

was only days before the

4:32

five year anniversary of Abraham

4:34

Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, which had

4:36

freed the enslaved black people

4:38

of America in January

4:41

of 1863. Athena,

4:43

she was born free, but

4:46

her siblings hadn't been. Do you know when

4:48

like your little siblings get an easier life

4:50

than you? That's the ultimate version of that,

4:52

isn't it? Yeah. I wonder what that does

4:55

for the family dynamic, you know, but surely

4:57

at that point you celebrate it, right? Like

4:59

would her siblings have celebrated the opportunity she

5:01

would therefore have? She and her siblings do

5:04

not appear to have been close. And

5:06

unfortunately, it's not clear how close she was

5:08

with her parents. They died within

5:10

18 months of each other. And so

5:13

she was orphaned at the time she was

5:15

about eight. She had to move in with

5:17

one of her older sisters and her sister's

5:19

husband, a man named Jesse Powell. When

5:22

as an older person, Sarah talked

5:24

about her childhood, she talked about

5:27

him as cruel in

5:29

ways that seem to be a euphemism

5:31

for different kinds of

5:33

serious abuse. The

5:35

family soon moved across the river to Vicksburg,

5:38

Mississippi, but the white community

5:40

there wasn't really enthusiastic about

5:42

all of the legal gains that black

5:44

people had made. And so

5:47

using both politics, elections, and

5:49

just naked violence, they really

5:51

tried to roll back the ability of black people

5:53

to vote, the ability of black people to own

5:55

land, the ability of black people to go to

5:58

school. A lot of black people just. picked

6:00

up and left that area of the

6:02

country and this included all three of

6:04

Sarah's brothers. Jesse, the

6:06

person describing this cruel, even

6:08

though Sarah was only 11 when all

6:10

of this was going

6:13

on, he demanded that she

6:15

economically contribute to the household

6:17

income. That's tough. So it's a

6:19

rags to riches fairy tale that we're hoping to

6:21

get in the end, but it's beginning with an

6:24

orphan girl working for her keep only 11. What

6:26

kind of job do you think she was doing at 11 Athena? Oh

6:28

God, I can only imagine. I mean, I don't think

6:31

I had paper rounds in those days. No. I

6:33

mean, now you'd get a Saturday job, wouldn't you? I feel

6:36

like it would be something laborious, something

6:38

that is bad for your nails

6:40

and your hands. Good instincts. It

6:42

was Laundress. So she's doing the

6:44

scrubbing, the labor, the cleaning the clothes.

6:47

It is the lowest of the low, kind

6:49

of the worst job you can get on

6:51

the ladder, but at least she's escaped from

6:53

her cruel brother-in-law. I mean, how do

6:55

you think she then tries to get away from him? Okay. Let

6:58

me get into the mind of a young person who has

7:00

a horrible job and wants to get away. It's

7:02

not a man, is it? They don't just, please

7:04

don't say it's a man. Like, oh no,

7:06

it is. She finds a guy and goes,

7:09

you'll do. Have you read

7:11

the script? Yeah, yeah. That's exactly what

7:13

happens. Very Cinderella move. She married the

7:15

first man she sees. Not a

7:17

handsome person. Don't do it, Sarah. No. No.

7:19

Glass slipper required. Unfortunately also

7:21

she's only 14. Oh no. So

7:24

I have to honk my problematic marriage

7:26

collection. So she's only 14 and she

7:28

marries her not so Prince Charming. Nellie

7:30

Wade, does this man live up to

7:32

my Disney expectation? This is the frog

7:34

that never turns into a prince. Oh

7:37

no. Her Prince Charming

7:39

was named Moses McWilliams,

7:41

probably at least in his twenties. They

7:44

stayed married a few years. By the time she was

7:46

18, she and

7:48

Moses had one daughter, Lillia, the only

7:50

child that she would ever have. And

7:52

then in 1888, Moses died. Sarah ends up a widow

7:56

and a single mother at the age

7:58

of 20. But her

8:01

name is now Sarah McWilliams. This

8:04

is the worst fairy tale ever, Athena. It is,

8:06

but does she move away with this guy? Because

8:08

even though she's with him, surely she's still

8:10

around like these brothers who are horrible to

8:13

her. She doesn't love Vicksburg, but she's left

8:15

the home of all family members. I'm clinging

8:17

to the fact that she's going to end

8:19

up successful in a millionaire, apparently, according to

8:21

the Guinness Book of World Records. But

8:23

we're still a long way from that happy

8:26

ever after. So where does this young single

8:28

mother, this young widow, what does she do

8:30

with her life next? No leeway. So

8:32

Sarah and her young daughter, Lilia,

8:34

get on a steamboat heading north

8:37

up to St. Louis. What

8:39

they're doing is following in the footsteps of

8:41

Sarah's brothers who were well established there, and

8:43

they worked as barbers. They worked in a

8:46

black community there as barbers. Sarah

8:48

moved into one of the poorest areas in

8:50

the city and took a job as a laundress,

8:52

again, work she knew how to do. It

8:55

was considered the lowest status, the lowest

8:57

form of work. But this

8:59

is the work that was available to her, and

9:01

so she had to also, because

9:04

it didn't pay very much, keep moving house. So

9:07

for much of the next decade, she worked

9:09

six days a week as a washerwoman and

9:11

went to church on her Sunday day

9:13

off. She was very, very religious and

9:15

was always a member of an African

9:17

Methodist Episcopal Church throughout her entire life.

9:19

Because obviously at the beginning we said

9:21

she was born into freedom, but

9:23

there doesn't seem to be a lot of freedom,

9:25

does it? She doesn't seem to have a lot

9:28

of life choices. What I said

9:30

earlier about, oh, her brothers might have looked at

9:32

her as like, oh, you've been born into a

9:34

new America. But it's actually just the same America

9:36

with different paperwork. The

9:38

admin is the thing that's different. But

9:41

I've got a question because I thought she didn't like her

9:43

brothers, but she went up to be in the

9:45

same town as them. So what was the

9:47

incentive to have proximity to them? Your

9:50

family is family. You might need a kidney. You might need

9:52

a kidney. So 1889, she's moved up

9:54

to St. Louis. Is that Missouri? Yes.

10:00

know that because of Nelly. Okay cool. Six

10:05

days a week working in laundry, Sundays

10:07

of church but in 1894

10:09

aged 27 she finds herself a new

10:11

fella who's called John Davis. I'm

10:14

feeling more hopeful Athena. I mean

10:16

you know that she was with her 2021.

10:18

Yeah. So six years so she that meant

10:20

she would she looked like she must have

10:22

been those six years you know done some

10:24

wheel swiping you know whatever the equivalent was

10:26

swiping was back then so she didn't just

10:28

jump into the next guys trying to find

10:30

the word. That's appropriate. At the end? Yes.

10:33

I was just like, don't

10:35

say pants. Next guy's bloomers.

10:37

Yeah six years. I'm assuming

10:40

that there was some quality

10:42

control wear. Nelly wait is

10:44

John Davis a higher standard

10:46

of man? Very soon after she

10:48

got married she regretted the marriage

10:50

almost instantly. John struggled

10:53

a lot he couldn't quite find work.

10:55

She still had to work as a

10:57

laundress. He also had another girlfriend

10:59

on top of all of this. Times have

11:01

always been tough. It's not just now guys. Times

11:05

have been tough for 150 years. I

11:07

feel good about that. He's got another

11:09

lady. But to make it even worse

11:11

like he the little bit of money

11:13

that Sarah's making as a laundress he's

11:16

taking it and dividing it between both

11:18

women so he's taking the money and

11:20

using Sarah's money to support and

11:22

then more seriously because it gets worse

11:25

he was an alcoholic and he was abusive

11:28

when drunk and then in 1903 he

11:31

claimed that Sarah had deserted him despite

11:33

him being the one with the girlfriend

11:35

and this was the end of

11:38

Sarah and John's six-year relationship

11:40

and she went back to being

11:42

called Sarah McWilliams. Someone cannot catch a break.

11:44

She can't catch a break and I think the great

11:46

poet in there just said to the left to the

11:49

left you know. I've packed your stuff. She should have

11:51

done that before he did it to her and it's

11:53

a lesson for us all but I think not

11:55

to be serious about it. There's something to

11:57

be said about when people are very working

11:59

class. and poor, it's hard for them to

12:01

be good partners. They don't have any money. They

12:03

probably have grown up with their own struggles and traumas

12:06

and PTSD and all these things. Not that, by

12:08

the way, I still blame the men. But

12:11

just to contextualize her struggle, she's a hardworking

12:13

woman, you know, she's independent. She obviously wants

12:15

to be in a situation where she's in

12:17

some kind of heteronormative situation with a partner

12:19

that is more secure and she can't catch

12:22

that break and that's really sad. But I

12:24

know it works out, doesn't it? I know

12:26

it works out. We're clinging to that, aren't

12:28

we? Yeah, absolutely. It's gonna work out, right?

12:30

Or maybe she showed them that she never

12:33

needed them in the first place. Maybe.

12:35

Well, in 1902, Sarah, she has moved

12:37

on, she has dumped John Davis, and

12:40

she's in her mid-30s now. Prime. Prime,

12:42

she's flirty. Yeah. 30-something, she's

12:44

thriving. Singular mingling. Yeah,

12:46

and she meets another man, and

12:49

this guy is called Charles Joseph

12:51

Walker. CJ Walker. Are

12:53

you getting good vibes? At this stage, no, assume I

12:55

don't know the story, at this stage, I'm like, why

12:57

are you still meeting men? I

13:00

was like, but it sounds promising because

13:02

I'm assuming that this is the walker

13:04

of her Walker name, unless it's her

13:06

brother. Oh. That would

13:08

be weird. She goes through all the Walkers.

13:10

She goes through the phone book going, are

13:12

you single? No. Are we related?

13:14

Yeah, I think you're, I think a spot on

13:17

there. Noly Way, this is the Walker

13:19

that will become her family name. He's

13:21

made something of himself. This is a

13:23

relationship that's gonna go somewhere, is that

13:25

fair? Yes, this is her last

13:27

marriage, so there's at least that. And

13:30

Charles was, and the census

13:32

describes him as a newsman,

13:34

and it's likely that he worked for

13:37

one of St. Louis's three black newspapers,

13:39

probably a newspaper at the time called

13:41

the Clarion. He was known

13:43

at people around who were writing about him

13:45

at the time, said he had a lot

13:47

of charisma, and that he had a lot

13:49

of drive, he was a working man. So,

13:52

so, so, my mom always said, beware of

13:54

a charming mom. I

13:56

can't wait to put that in there. Okay, beware of

13:58

a charming man. Unfortunately, your mother

14:00

was not there for Sarah at the time. But

14:04

things are starting to look up for her

14:06

because, you know, he wants to build a

14:08

future she does. He's working. They're there together.

14:10

He has charisma. And so

14:12

she is a new, better relationship, a strong

14:14

community at church still. And he

14:17

is more free time because by this point, Lilia,

14:19

her daughter, is away at boarding school.

14:22

And as a religious woman, she seems to

14:24

have been invested in a Christian ideal of

14:26

self-improvement, as well as being motivated to do

14:29

more for the general black community.

14:31

Lilia Bundles, who is her

14:33

biographer, says this is when

14:36

Sarah started to work to

14:38

improve her circumstances. This

14:40

is when Sarah, as

14:42

we know her, takes the first step on the path

14:44

to become Madam CJ Walker. And

14:46

the start of that journey is being

14:49

a sales agent for another black beauty

14:51

entrepreneur called Annie Malone. No, leeway. Is

14:53

that right? Yes. Yes.

14:57

And so in St. Louis in 1903,

14:59

Sarah starts working as a sales agent

15:01

for a woman named Annie Turnbull

15:03

Malone selling hair care products door

15:05

to door to other black women. Sarah

15:08

had dandruff and she had psoriasis of

15:11

the scalp, as did other black women.

15:13

And so she wanted to show her

15:15

hair instead of having it wrapped up

15:18

all the time. She wanted healthy hair,

15:20

a healthy scalp. And white-owned companies in

15:22

this period, while pretending to be

15:24

black-owned, often told black women, you

15:26

know, you should just straighten your hair,

15:28

use our products for your hair. But

15:31

Malone and later Madam Walker, the

15:34

niche that they came up with

15:36

was providing products that actually nourished

15:38

and helped manage black hair and

15:40

not just control it. What door

15:43

to door sales generally a thing

15:45

or was that innovative as well at that

15:47

time? No, this is a

15:49

woman a few years before named

15:52

Estee Lauder. Oh, yeah. I know her.

15:55

Yeah, my mum, yeah, she my mum likes this stuff. Unfortunately,

15:57

she had actually started this as an.

16:00

immigrant woman as

16:02

a way of making ends meet on the

16:04

East Coast in the US. She was sort

16:06

of the first, but Malone and Walker are

16:09

the first black people going door to door

16:11

in black communities. You can't do that now. People don't

16:13

ask for a door now. Who is it? Oh, God, don't

16:15

answer the turn off

16:17

the lights. She did it at the right time. She'd

16:19

waited 150 years. She's not

16:21

being a millionaire. But also you said, Nolewa,

16:23

there were white businesses pretending to be black

16:26

businesses to sell to the black community. I

16:28

guess if you're door to door and you

16:30

show your face, people can see you're

16:32

from the community. Yes,

16:34

that is true. Well, there we go.

16:36

Okay. Sarah, who now we

16:38

might want to start referring to Madam Walker,

16:40

perhaps, she often would tell a compelling origin

16:43

story of where she learned the formula for

16:45

her her own hair salves for her scalp.

16:47

Do you want to guess what the story

16:49

is? I want to say that she got

16:51

a vision, but I think who would give

16:54

you the vision? There's no

16:56

kind of spiritual God that is like, Hey, you want better

16:58

hair? At the end

17:00

of the day, like hair lines are important. I mean,

17:02

my hair lines go and I wouldn't mind the vision

17:04

now, to be honest. Was it like, you

17:06

know, like an accidental like discovery like Marmite, right? The

17:08

Marmite one is like someone tasted a residue, like for

17:10

some reason and they said it was delicious. Why they

17:13

put it in their mouth? No idea, but they did

17:15

and we're all grateful. So

17:17

was it just she just accidentally put something in her hair and

17:19

she woke up and her hair doubled in length. You

17:21

were closer with your vision. No,

17:24

it's impossible. Yeah,

17:26

none other than Jesus Christ himself comes to

17:28

her in a dream. He had great hair.

17:30

He has great hair. Whatever. Even like whether

17:32

you see a black Jesus or white Jesus,

17:34

the one consistent thing is the hair is

17:36

good. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm familiar with

17:39

Christ offering salvation, but not so much

17:41

salves. Black people are hilarious. What did

17:43

he just tell you? Oh, he told

17:45

me he had to deal with

17:47

my ends. Yeah. So tell us about black

17:49

Jesus and his hair care routines, please. So

17:53

Sarah said that one night she

17:55

was praying for a solution to

17:57

her hair problems. falling

18:00

out, having dandruff, psoriasis. That

18:03

evening she had a dream and

18:05

Black Jesus, Jesus who as he

18:07

appeared to her was a Black man and

18:10

gave her a secret recipe for a

18:12

hair salve. She got the

18:14

ingredients, made up the recipe, tried it

18:16

on herself, tried it on her

18:18

friends and family. It worked wonders, hair

18:21

grew forth, scalps were healthy. And

18:23

all of the ingredients she

18:25

needed for it were accessible right

18:28

there in St. Louis since it

18:30

was second only to New York

18:32

City in the number of pharmaceutical

18:34

houses and chemical suppliers during the

18:36

period. So all of this

18:38

happened while Sarah was still working

18:40

for Annie Malone. Now,

18:42

Annie became angry and challenged

18:45

the story of Jesus giving

18:48

birth. No. It

18:50

sounds so legit. Annie

18:53

wanted the world to know that

18:56

Sarah stole the recipe from her.

18:58

The real reason for the success of

19:01

both women's products was likely their

19:03

promotion of a regime of regular

19:05

shampoos and scout massages. Both of

19:07

their products used a sulfur based

19:10

formula that neither had invented, but

19:12

both became fierce rivals for the

19:14

rest of their career after this

19:16

supposed betrayal. Da da da. Can

19:18

I ask a question? I

19:20

think we can establish who was telling

19:23

the truth by understanding what the ingredients

19:25

were. So my question is, where the

19:27

ingredients, frankincense, golden milk,

19:29

could you say where it probably

19:31

was Jesus? So is that the

19:33

case? I love the idea that Jesus would give them

19:36

this as a baby and the rest of

19:38

his 33 years trying to re-gift them. It's like

19:40

I've just been carrying around three metric tons of

19:42

frankincense I don't need. Yeah, so

19:44

hallelujah, praise Jesus, he has saved

19:46

her or Sarah has stolen the

19:48

recipe from her boss. You

19:51

choose. Have you ever had a divine

19:53

dream? I

19:55

dream every night, manically and vividly,

19:57

and God forbid any of those

19:59

dreams. Come to basically I've never

20:01

had a decent vision, but I'd like my visions

20:03

to have more practical use in my life Okay,

20:05

well you need to be a laundress six days

20:08

a week for ten years and then on the

20:10

Sunday. I have two kids Okay,

20:16

so after her divine encounter in July 1905

20:19

Sarah Bordered

20:21

a train for Denver with a pocket full of

20:23

dreams and a bag full of animal owns her

20:25

care products So

20:27

what extent is she heading out on

20:29

her own and what extent is she going to

20:31

be there selling Annie's products? She definitely

20:33

borrowed the business idea But she

20:36

did make her own products and

20:38

then when she got to Denver

20:40

She went back to cooking and

20:42

washing jobs to make ends meet One

20:45

of the people who she she most likely

20:47

worked for was a chemist and he helped

20:49

her Come up with her own

20:51

formula that bore no relationship to Annie

20:53

balloon She also opened

20:56

a small workshop and started to

20:58

focus on making and selling her

21:00

own products door to door She

21:03

probably had good customer networks

21:05

because she had been selling

21:07

Malone's products by January of 1906

21:10

She and Charles Walker were married

21:12

and she started marketing her

21:14

Walker's wonderful hair grower through

21:17

newspaper Advertisements and that's the

21:19

first time she starts calling herself Madam

21:21

CJ Walker She quickly

21:24

found success and her husband was

21:26

helpful not just because he gave her

21:28

both of his names Young

21:30

Lillia also took on the Walker

21:33

surname and joined her mother's business By

21:35

age 21 becoming a key member throughout

21:38

her life. The Walker business

21:40

was multifaceted It manufactured care care

21:42

products sold them door to door

21:44

trained sales Agents did mail

21:46

orders and also taught hair

21:49

care at salons that they opened

21:51

Wow. I've got a question

21:53

Yeah patents or patients. Yeah,

21:56

where does that come into it because

21:58

somebody has any recipe for a

22:00

hair formula and it works, isn't

22:02

there a bit of paper or is it

22:04

that it's like the world west and nobody, you

22:07

can't patent hair stuff? Yeah, there was

22:09

no actual patents on any of

22:11

these. What the fight was over

22:13

from Annie Malone's perspective was that

22:16

the marketing and infrastructure ideas

22:18

were exactly the same. So Walker

22:20

claiming that she was the first, that she was

22:23

the inventor of going door to door, that she

22:25

was the first black woman to invent hair

22:27

care, beauty culture. That's what Malone

22:29

was most upset about. Okay,

22:32

we could spin Sarah as a bit of

22:34

a villain here but I don't think I

22:36

want to. I feel like she's had a

22:38

really, really hard life and she's found something

22:40

she's good at, she's finally making money doing

22:42

a thing that matters and we

22:45

can see one of the products too. Is it going

22:47

to be like a before and after? Do

22:49

you want to describe that for the listener? Yeah,

22:51

well first of all I'm going to say they

22:54

still package black women's hair products in the same

22:56

way. So what I can

22:58

see is the beautiful yellow tin and

23:00

I can see somebody with hair with

23:02

so much volume. Literally she has just

23:04

stepped out of the salon and it's

23:06

thick and it's straight but I still

23:08

see texture and it says Madame

23:10

CJ Walker's wonderful hair grower.

23:12

Take my money. Take my money.

23:16

So, Leeway, is this Sarah on the tin

23:19

or is this a model? Do we know?

23:21

No, no, no, that's Sarah. That's a young

23:23

Madame Walker there and then later you'll see

23:25

a Lilia, her daughter, becomes one of the

23:28

main models. So there's literally

23:30

the earliest times when you had a black

23:32

woman's image on sort of like the Oprah

23:34

of hair manufacturing. Her

23:37

celebrity, her face, is as much

23:39

of a selling point as is

23:41

the product. Yes, she is the product. It's her

23:43

name, well it's her husband's name but it's her

23:45

name, it's her face, it's her product. It's Annie

23:47

Malone's business model but it's her product. She

23:50

looks like she's saying, I dare you to buy something

23:52

else. See if you go in, I dare you to

23:54

pick up something else. I've seen that face before and

23:56

it's that Athena, you forgot to take the chicken out

23:58

to freeze her face. But

24:01

also the crucial thing there, it says

24:03

manufactured in Indianapolis. Is that where she's

24:05

moved her company? Why Indianapolis? So

24:07

she left Denver in about 1906 and

24:11

she travels around and she's

24:13

popularizing her products and Sarah

24:16

and Charles arrive in Indianapolis

24:18

around 1910 and they

24:20

get a warm welcome from the

24:22

local black community and there's great

24:24

industrial conditions there. So

24:27

they established their headquarters

24:29

and because Indianapolis had a pretty

24:31

large black population, this was crucial

24:33

to their success. One of

24:36

the reasons that they actually left Denver

24:38

was because of its small black community.

24:40

It was also because as soon as

24:42

Walker started to do well in Denver,

24:45

Annie Malone came along and set

24:48

up a rival salon right across

24:50

town. Let it go. So

24:53

they picked up and moved to Indianapolis

24:56

and things went well. Yeah, I mean Annie, as I

24:58

understand it, was in the same street? Is that right?

25:01

Yeah, right next door actually. Yes, she

25:03

came and bought a bigger place literally

25:05

right next door. Although Walker said that

25:07

when Annie Malone did not run her out

25:09

of Denver, she was pulled to better

25:11

opportunity. Okay, okay. What's

25:14

really sad here is there's space for

25:16

kind of both of them to be

25:18

millionaires, but she was, yes, it was

25:20

the resentment. It was like

25:23

vengeance. Yeah, there was a proper

25:25

business rivalry that went beyond simply

25:27

quarterly sales figures. Madam C.J. Walker

25:29

survived the rivalry and by 1911,

25:31

the company is thriving and it

25:34

becomes incorporated too. It becomes a registered company.

25:36

That's a big deal for a

25:38

woman whose family were enslaved and she's

25:40

come from a hard, scrabble life.

25:42

Yes, yes, it's quite a turnaround.

25:44

That's a part of why she's so popular is

25:47

because it really is a big turnaround story. So

25:50

by 1911, the company is incorporated

25:52

and Madam has a factory in

25:54

Indianapolis. She is 950 sales agents.

26:00

She got thousands of customers, multiple

26:02

hair parlors, and a substantial

26:05

personal net worth, and

26:07

she had really made it as a businesswoman.

26:09

So what are the Christmas parties like? Because

26:12

that's a lot of people you've got to

26:14

entertain. It

26:16

just feels like, was this growth exponential?

26:19

Yes. In 1912, she'd earned $11,000 in a

26:21

year. But

26:25

by April 1913, she'd already earned that in

26:27

four months. So she's trebling her

26:29

figures year on year almost. It's really, really

26:31

fast growth. But while the

26:33

business is doing great guns, Nolye Way,

26:35

we once again have to say the

26:38

men in her life, bit of disappointment.

26:40

Yes. She was a business

26:42

genius, obviously, but her marriage radar

26:45

might not have been great.

26:47

So the way the story goes is

26:49

that while he was on a business trip in

26:51

1912, Charles met a

26:54

woman named Dora Larry. And

26:56

Dora actually ran the Walker Salon

26:59

on the campus of Tuskegee

27:01

University in Birmingham, Alabama.

27:04

While there, Dora convinced Charles that

27:07

Sarah was treating him badly, and

27:09

that he should join forces with her.

27:12

It's on him. All right. It's not

27:14

Dora. Okay. Like, oh, I

27:16

didn't want to do it, but she told me you were horrible. No.

27:20

Find another excuse. She

27:23

told him that Sarah's treating you badly,

27:25

and that Charles should leave Sarah and

27:27

join forces with her both personally and

27:30

professionally. She wants to go into hair

27:32

care because she worked for Madam Walker.

27:35

She now knew how to make and

27:37

do Walker's hair treatments. So

27:39

of course, it didn't take long for Sarah

27:42

to discover that Charles and Dora

27:44

were having this affair. And

27:47

she confirmed it by actually listening

27:49

through the keyhole at their hotel

27:51

room in Atlanta. Again,

27:53

we're told that she came very close,

27:55

almost shooting Charles, but she thought better

27:58

of it. go

28:00

back to Indianapolis immediately and

28:02

begin divorce proceedings. One

28:05

of the things that she carried out of

28:07

the divorce was the name CJ Walker,

28:09

Madam CJ Walker and the branding because

28:11

it was so much a part of

28:13

her business and her branding. So she dumped

28:15

him but kept the name. Yeah,

28:17

like Tina. Tina Turner. Yeah. I

28:20

came into this room thinking, surely

28:23

I'm going to leave liking men more.

28:25

Surely. You know, that's all. And I always hang

28:27

out with Greg and think men are okay. You

28:30

know, and now it's like, oh gosh, you know,

28:32

I mean. But what, like

28:34

she made him, right? Like he's

28:36

probably attractive to Dora because of

28:38

what she did for him, right?

28:41

Can I tell you my conspiracy

28:43

theory? Yes. Dora was hired

28:45

by Annie Malone to destroy

28:47

the marriage and to produce him and to break

28:49

up the marriage and to break up the business.

28:52

That's my, I can't prove it,

28:54

but that's my belief. Yeah, at a

28:56

time when women aren't supposed to be more dominant

28:58

than men and maybe he just wasn't progressive enough

29:00

to want to have to live with a woman's

29:02

money. Back then, I imagine he would have been,

29:05

he would have felt emasculated maybe not to make

29:07

excuses for him. They're just to contextualize his behavior.

29:09

No, I like that you've brought an empathy to

29:11

exploring why some of the men in her life

29:13

maybe are up. You've got to. Otherwise you'll be

29:16

looking for that firearms, you know. Yeah, but

29:18

she nearly shot him. So let's be honest, it could have

29:20

gotten worse. She could have been in jail running

29:22

her business from behind bars. So

29:25

Sarah Walker, she's keeping the name.

29:27

She dumped her cheating husband. The

29:29

business is thriving. And in 1913,

29:31

along comes the introduction

29:33

of a brand new federal income tax,

29:36

which obviously is important to pay your

29:39

taxes, but no, leeway does she pay

29:41

her taxes or does she sort of

29:43

keep it all hidden from the tax

29:45

man? I think it's a little bit

29:47

of both. Oh no. I like

29:49

the sound. So what exactly does she

29:51

do? Like exactly word for word please?

29:55

Well her lawyer advised

29:57

her to quote unquote keep

29:59

a little more. mum about

30:01

her annual income. Since

30:04

the new tax was on personal earnings

30:06

that are greater than $3,000.

30:08

Since the annual wage at the time

30:11

was only about $800, Madam

30:13

Walker would have been one of only a

30:15

small number of citizens who had to even pay

30:17

the tax and she would have even been

30:19

a smaller percentage who would have had to pay

30:22

the tax at a higher rate. So he

30:24

said, just keep it to yourself. Look,

30:26

you say tax evasion, I

30:29

say reparations. Yes, thank

30:31

you. And

30:37

if HMRc is listening,

30:39

yeah, I'm going into hiding. You

30:41

might not see me for a while. Well,

30:44

she's probably bringing in, we think, something like $35,000 a

30:47

year. So the tax rate is 3000 to

30:50

the cut off. So she's 10 times, you

30:52

know, she's on the marginal tax rate there.

30:55

I'm not going to mess, but I agree. It's quite hard to

30:57

hide $32,000 probably. What would you spend your money, you know,

30:59

1913 stuff, what would you spend

31:03

your cash on? Oh, you know, a horse and cart,

31:05

a big

31:08

house, a horse and cart. Well, I'm

31:11

just thinking it's a Model T Ford. Oh,

31:13

of course it is. Right. So I'd buy

31:16

10 of them in different colours. Oh, convert.

31:18

Well, obviously, they didn't have a roof. So

31:20

whatever is the equivalent of a convertible car

31:22

when cars don't have roofs, let

31:24

the seats go back or something. In

31:27

a previous episode, we did. How

31:33

did Hitler's sexuality shape his worldview?

31:35

Why did the Black Death lead

31:37

to the rise of the witch

31:39

trials? And what are some of

31:41

the sources scandals involving kings and

31:43

queens at Hampton Court? I don't

31:45

know about you, but this is

31:48

the history I want to hear

31:50

about. If you do

31:52

too, then join me, Tate Lister,

31:54

every Tuesday and Friday to find out

31:56

the answers to all of these questions

31:58

and more. Listen to... A twig-sachine

32:00

to the history of sex, scandal and

32:03

society, wherever you get your podcasts, brought

32:05

to you by History Hit. So,

32:31

you know, they both like to live a

32:33

life of luxury, and they spent money

32:35

on cars and real estate, including

32:38

a home on 136th Street in New York and Harlem. They

32:42

were among the first black property owners in

32:44

that area, and Sarah, now known

32:47

as Madame Walker, moved there in 1916. Lillia

32:51

also spent a lot renovating the

32:53

house and the salon that opened in

32:55

Harlem, and she decorated with the finest

32:57

art and furniture. Madame Walker

33:00

started throwing lavish parties every

33:02

April when Lillia visited the

33:04

Indianapolis headquarters, where she hosted

33:06

prominent black musicians, dancers, poets

33:09

and performers. She

33:11

enjoyed treating Lillia, but there was

33:13

always a condition attached that seemed

33:15

something like, I've brought you this

33:17

expensive present, now I need you

33:19

to do something business-related for me. But

33:23

by this point, Madame Walker wanted

33:25

to be seen as wealthy, influential

33:27

and important, and black newspapers and

33:29

magazines helped to propagate this image

33:31

of her. So basically,

33:33

it's like you get to have nice

33:36

things, like here's a new watch, but

33:38

you've got to take out the trash.

33:40

Like that. Business-related,

33:42

so maybe you've got to open a new salon

33:44

in Michigan for me. Oh, right, you've got to

33:46

help me evade the sex. So

33:50

by this point, Lillia was the model for

33:52

the Walker company, and she had the best

33:54

hair ever, and they were constantly trying to

33:56

drag her into studios to shoot, and Lillia

33:58

came up with a new look. kept pushing

34:00

back. She wanted to live her life,

34:02

have parties, be grown. And so

34:04

some of the bribing had to do with,

34:06

come take this picture so we can keep

34:08

the money, you know, rolling in. I'm

34:11

not feeling sorry for the daughter. You

34:14

can have whatever you want. Just do a little

34:16

thing every now and again for the business.

34:18

Have your picture taken. Imagine if Kim Kardashian

34:20

was like, no, mum, I'm not doing it.

34:22

Get your cameras out of the house. So

34:24

I kind of feel like this daughter, is she

34:26

like... Parents often look at their middle class kids

34:28

and like, oh, you've got no idea. You

34:31

know, is this what's happening here? Is Madam

34:33

C.J. Walker looking at her daughter and going,

34:35

I washed sheets for this? Yeah, sent you

34:38

to school and... Yeah, you're right. And of

34:40

course, Sarah or Madam C.J. Walker, she's now

34:42

known, because that's just her name now. She's

34:45

taken it. She's going to build herself a

34:47

booty... Correction, she's earned that. She's earned it.

34:49

She acquired it in a business deal. She

34:51

is going to build herself a

34:54

house, a dream house. What

34:56

do you think it's going to look

34:58

like, Athena? What's the aesthetic design you

35:00

think? I think she's tasteful. Okay. It's

35:02

not going to look like... Barbie Dream

35:04

Castle? No, something regal,

35:07

palatial. I'm going to say

35:09

Taj Mahal. Oh, wow. Okay.

35:12

We can see a couple of photos, actually.

35:14

When I first saw this, I immediately thought

35:16

of Uncle Phil's house in Fresh Prince of

35:19

the Year. Yes. Oh, yeah.

35:21

I mean, that is tasteful, actually. Did

35:23

it describe it for us? It literally

35:25

looks like Uncle Phil's house in Fresh

35:27

Prince of the Year. You're absolutely right.

35:29

It's got columns, Roman columns. And

35:32

it's got a balcony at the top. I can see

35:34

the back of the house. Now, she

35:36

is clearly throwing at the time this

35:38

picture has been taken a massive party.

35:40

We're talking, like, you know, J.Z. does

35:42

that lunch every

35:45

year, like the annual J.Z. lunch everyone goes to.

35:47

It's like that, but there's no room for nibbles.

35:49

There's no... It's standing room only. I'd love to

35:51

know what's happening here at this time. Yeah. It's

35:53

packed. It looks like the White House in the

35:55

front, and it looks like a kind of Italian villa in

35:57

the back. You are spot on. The house was

35:59

called called Villa Laguaro. It was

36:02

located in a place called Irvington, New York.

36:04

It took some years to build, but it

36:07

was finished in 1918 and

36:09

designed by a black architect

36:11

called Wertner Gandy. And

36:13

it was in a really fancy area.

36:15

Literally the Rockefellers, who are

36:18

millionaires many times over, live

36:20

right up the road. And

36:23

the way it got its name,

36:25

Villa Laguaro, was celebrity Italian opera

36:27

singer Enrico Caruso came and visited

36:30

the property with Lilia because she

36:32

hung out with people like that.

36:34

When he came, he said he

36:37

was reminded of his homeland. So

36:39

that's where the word Villa came from.

36:42

The house cost a fortune and

36:44

garnered criticism. But Sarah said it

36:46

was built as a monument to

36:48

black success and what could be

36:50

achieved. And so in this

36:53

image that you describe where there is

36:55

hardly any room to move, this

36:57

is all of the Walker employees, as

36:59

many as could make their way to

37:02

the East Coast. It's all of the sales people,

37:04

the folks who go door to door, people who

37:06

work in different offices around the

37:09

country. She threw a massive party

37:11

for all of them so they could see

37:13

what they were working so hard for, what

37:15

they were building collectively, but also just as

37:18

a way to say thank you. Was

37:20

she a good employer? Because

37:23

some employers will treat you nice one day

37:25

of the year and then the rest of

37:27

the time they'll be just horrible to you.

37:30

Like did people wake up in the morning

37:32

and think I'm so happy to go to

37:34

work for Madam C.J. Walker? The

37:36

thing about most of the people in her

37:38

business is they end up being sort of

37:40

freelancers or what the term would be, as

37:42

franchise would probably be a better way. You

37:45

sort of paid some money to the company,

37:47

you got some of the products, but it

37:49

allowed people who had a certain kind of

37:52

drive, a certain kind of

37:54

charm, and who wanted to have

37:56

some freedom around their economic life.

37:58

Any black woman could buy into

38:00

it and start to build a base.

38:03

So it wasn't so much that she was everyone's

38:05

boss, that they were coming into the Devil Wears

38:08

Prada kind of thing, coming into the office and

38:11

people are yelling at them. It

38:13

was more, her model was much

38:15

more about just empowering her

38:17

workers to stand on their own and they

38:19

were quite fond of her. It was very

38:21

successful in that regard. It's Annie Malone, isn't

38:23

it? Annie Malone wanted it all for herself,

38:25

right? But, you know, Madam CEO Walker's gone,

38:28

actually, you can have it, just give me

38:30

a percentage of what you sell, right? And

38:32

then you can come out to my house,

38:34

but don't steal the cutlets. Because

38:36

if I'd had that many of my employees in my house, I'd

38:38

have had a metal detector. You

38:41

have to be real, I am your boss, you're going

38:43

to nick something. Right. Security guards in the bedroom. I

38:46

suppose what's quite interesting is we have Madam

38:48

Walker throwing these lavish parties, and

38:51

Lelia, or later Allelia, throwing these celebrity parties

38:53

where the opera singers and celebs and actors

38:55

and playwrights and poets and intellectuals all hanging

38:57

out. She's the

38:59

hostess with the mostest, but there's a

39:02

certain element of real anxiety for Sarah

39:04

because she doesn't feel she belongs.

39:07

Impostor Syndrome, Impostor Syndrome alert.

39:09

We all have it. Mine is to a

39:11

slightly lesser scale. You know, I've got a

39:13

six burner hob and some sort of, do

39:15

I deserve these two extra hobs that I

39:17

don't use? I, you know, I often question

39:20

what I did to deserve such a big

39:22

cook up. You know, it's not quite the

39:24

same thing as having a house of columns,

39:26

but I think, yeah, she's only one generation

39:28

removed from slavery, as we

39:30

said. So I'm actually pleased

39:32

to hear that she's questioning

39:34

her purpose. And I think

39:37

it's rational. I often, whilst I'm making my

39:39

spaghetti, stare at my cook up with a

39:41

real guilty. You

39:43

know that guilty, because that's literally the only

39:45

trappings of my life. That's it. That's the

39:47

one victory. Six hobs. No,

39:50

leeway. I think we have here

39:52

someone who's come a such a long

39:54

way from her childhood of poverty and

39:56

now hanging out with these brilliant people,

39:58

a lot of whom intellectuals.

40:01

How does she get around this fear

40:03

of being in their company and feeling

40:06

like she's not educated? Yeah, I

40:08

mean she was someone who just hadn't

40:10

even had the benefit of the most

40:13

rudimentary kind of formal education. So she

40:16

hires a tutor in secret,

40:18

a woman named Alice Kelly who was

40:20

also the forelady in one of her

40:23

factories. Because she wanted

40:25

to be involved with the Black intelligentsia,

40:27

she had to figure out

40:29

how to ingratiate herself with leaders

40:32

like Booker T. Washington. In

40:34

January 1912, Washington held

40:37

a gathering that was called the

40:39

Negro Farmers Conference. This was

40:41

at Tuskegee Institute, a school that he had founded,

40:44

HBCU founded for for newly free

40:46

black people. Walker wanted

40:48

to go and speak about her products,

40:50

but she received a very curt refusal

40:52

from him. So she showed up at

40:54

his home to hand him a letter

40:56

because she wanted to persuade him to

40:59

let her speak and she wanted for

41:01

him to know that she thought of

41:03

herself as a former farmer who had

41:05

made something of herself and she wanted

41:07

to highlight the work she was doing

41:09

for the black community. And

41:11

this work, this gumption worked for

41:13

her and she got to speak for 10

41:15

minutes. But then later that year Walker

41:18

was snubbed again at the 13th

41:20

annual National Negro Business League Convention

41:23

in Chicago. She was

41:25

only one of a few delegates to

41:28

arrive in a chauffeur driven Model T

41:30

car, but she discovered

41:32

that while three other hair

41:34

care manufacturers had been chosen

41:36

to speak, she hadn't. But

41:38

by the 14th conference Booker

41:41

T. Washington welcomed her with open arms and

41:43

gave her a chance to speak. At

41:46

that one, at the one in 1914, she

41:48

was given the title of the

41:51

foremost businesswoman of our race. So

41:53

how much of this struggle for

41:55

acceptance was actually just because she was a

41:57

woman and how much of it was because

41:59

she wasn't felt to be educated because I feel

42:01

like it's probably both. Yeah, I

42:03

definitely think it's both. You just didn't

42:06

have people at the higher echelons of

42:08

the business world who didn't have a certain

42:10

level of education, but

42:12

also to have a woman who was completely

42:15

in charge because remember at

42:17

this point, Charles is out of the picture. So

42:19

no one can start saying, oh, he's

42:21

really the brains of the operation. Everyone

42:24

knew that this was her. She was doing

42:26

it on her own and it was unsettling

42:28

to some, certainly. So Madam C.J.

42:30

Walker, the foremost businesswoman of our race,

42:33

pop that on your letterhead. That's great,

42:35

isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I

42:37

don't know how you qualify that. I'd probably

42:39

take exceptions. Imagine that

42:41

on your email signature. I

42:45

guess Annie Malone would have been furious to hear that.

42:48

Well, you know, that's... Well,

42:50

I wanted to be... Yeah,

42:53

you wouldn't even conceive that that

42:55

exists as a title. OK, so Madam

42:57

Walker, you know, she wants to do good

42:59

and that charitable element of giving to a

43:02

certain extent is good for the brand. Let's

43:04

be honest, it is good to be seen

43:06

to be generous, but it's genuine too. She

43:08

absolutely, she did a lot of charity work

43:10

and she wasn't quiet about it. We know

43:13

she did a lot of charity work because

43:15

she told us she did a lot of

43:17

charity work. Among other

43:19

things, she gave a thousand dollars

43:21

for a new YMCA to be

43:24

built in Indianapolis. She

43:26

contributed to the NAACP,

43:28

National Association of Colored

43:30

People's anti-lynching campaign. She

43:32

regularly distributed food baskets to

43:35

poorer neighbors around Christmas. She

43:38

actually talked about and saw her company

43:41

as a form of philanthropy. And

43:44

she believed that by giving black women

43:46

sales jobs and teaching them to be

43:48

hairdressers, that she was helping them

43:50

to avoid lives of hard labor in

43:53

domestic service or in factories. And

43:55

so from 1917, she also held

43:58

annual conferences to encourage them. sales

44:00

agents to support political causes

44:03

and they would spend

44:05

mornings discussing business and afternoons

44:07

discussing politics in the public

44:09

sessions. Yeah absolutely approved but

44:11

a reminder that charitable donations

44:13

are tax deductible. Just in

44:15

case anyone's thinking about how

44:17

to lower that bill. She's

44:20

using her money to help people who need it

44:22

you know YMCA and I mean it's the anti-lynching

44:24

campaign that's really I mean that's that's a hugely

44:26

important oh it's massive and so I didn't shut

44:28

up but I'm a big fan of giving

44:30

loudly. If I buy a ten

44:33

thousand pound jumper and that logo is

44:36

on my shirt that should be quiet

44:38

but if I give ten grand to the

44:40

anti-lynching league I need to tell people about that

44:42

I think we should all be loud about how much

44:44

we give and people like what have you given recently

44:46

and I'll be quiet now. But I don't have anything,

44:49

just a hop that's all I have. The six-burner hop.

44:51

Available from your house. I mean we then

44:53

in 1917 we've

44:55

got her holding this annual convention where she's teaching

44:57

politics you know in the afternoon but we also

44:59

get America entering the First World War. What took

45:01

you so long? We've been fighting this since 1914

45:03

but still you know I'm over

45:05

it. How does our philanthropist

45:08

respond to this new national

45:11

crisis? Really what she did is

45:13

she started to give money to improve

45:15

conditions for black servicemen who were

45:18

serving under conditions of Jim Crow segregation

45:20

in the military. She

45:22

bought $4,000 worth of war bonds. By the end

45:26

of September of 1917 she attended

45:28

the National Equal Rights League's annual

45:30

convention and here she's rubbing shoulders

45:33

with women like Ida B. Wells

45:35

and others and she discussed the

45:38

continued silence from the White House

45:40

on issues about race and racism

45:43

in the US. And

45:45

like other black intellectuals in America she

45:47

made plans to attend the Paris Peace

45:49

Talks after the war to

45:51

advocate for global and national black interest

45:53

though she didn't actually end up going.

45:56

Yeah so she's really putting her money

45:58

where her mouth is you know she's

46:00

foremost businesswoman of her race. And on

46:02

that global perspective too, it's really interesting

46:04

that she had that ambition to go

46:06

to Paris and have that global almost

46:09

pan-African perspective rather than just

46:11

talking about the African-American perspective

46:13

maybe. And it's really interesting that she wanted to advocate

46:16

for black service people because one

46:18

could say that if you're a pro-black American,

46:21

you'd want to wash your hands with the

46:23

war. Nothing to do with

46:25

me. But actually she said, well, no, there

46:27

are still people who get swept up

46:29

into it and they're people I

46:31

care about. And that's really progressive. You

46:34

are very nuanced around your activism, which

46:36

is I think really instructive.

46:38

The question I want to ask is does

46:40

Sarah, Madam Seajeboelker, does she get a

46:42

sort of peaceful retirement? I'm guessing the answer is

46:44

no. She works until the very

46:47

end. This company is her everything when

46:49

you think about where she came from and near

46:51

the end of her life where she was, she

46:53

wanted to protect it. She was

46:55

on a promotion tour in

46:58

November of 1916 and

47:00

she and her traveling companion were

47:03

trying to cross some railroad tracks

47:05

that were nearly hit by a

47:08

train in northwest Mississippi. Her blood

47:10

pressure soared off the charts and

47:13

a doctor told her that she needed

47:15

six weeks of rest. She

47:17

ignored him and continued to tour.

47:19

And then in late 1917, a doctor diagnosed her

47:24

with nephritis, which is an

47:26

acute kidney inflammation. And he

47:28

told her to just cease

47:30

work indefinitely, but she ignored

47:32

him as well. And by 1918 had embarked

47:35

on a Midwestern tour

47:39

that was supposed to last for three months.

47:42

Despite all these health problems, she was doing

47:44

better than ever financially, which is part

47:46

of what drove her on. In 1918, she

47:49

made $276,000 more or less, which was an increase of over $100,000 from the previous

47:51

year. Then by

47:58

1919, Madam

48:00

Walker embarked on her final tour

48:02

where she again fell ill and

48:05

in May of 1919 She slipped

48:07

into a coma at Villa Laguaro and on

48:09

the 25th of that month she died

48:13

Tragically Lillia had been sent away in business

48:15

and Madam Walker had not wanted her to

48:17

be told to come home So

48:19

Lillia missed both her mother's death

48:22

and her mother's funeral It

48:25

sounds like she was a workaholic and Once

48:28

she gets a certain amount of wealth you do earn the

48:30

right to listen to your doctor's and it's

48:32

really interesting that she didn't feel like she Earned that

48:35

right and I think there's so many

48:37

stories in history where people are just too rich But

48:39

also if she was trying to use that money for good Then she

48:42

needed that money to then give it to the elsewhere I mean it's

48:44

that thing but then it's almost like you take that rest and then

48:46

there's more money to be made Right, that's

48:48

really sad. Lillia wasn't there which is

48:50

very very sad But Sarah's last words

48:52

on her deathbed I want to live to help my

48:55

race So I think we

48:57

get a sense of her psychology there Yeah,

48:59

Nellie way how did world react to the

49:01

death because I think you talked

49:03

about the word celebrity earlier Was she famous was

49:05

she a celebrity was she beloved by this point?

49:08

She was completely beloved in part

49:10

because of all of the charitable

49:12

work in part because she was

49:15

featured in black newspapers all over

49:17

the country and and then

49:19

the Walker hairdressers were parts of

49:22

black communities all over the country, so When

49:25

she died it it it Reverberated

49:27

around the nation, but it's her

49:30

funeral was held at Villa Laguaro

49:32

and people attended from just all

49:34

over the nation And it

49:37

was grand in a way and it was

49:39

also very religious Which

49:41

really was in keeping with the ways that

49:43

Walker wanted her life to be portrayed Even

49:47

the mainstream white press noticed her death

49:49

and wrote about her significance But

49:51

black newspapers made a special occasion of

49:53

it They talked about all of her

49:56

contributions to hair care her contributions to

49:58

the rights of black people in

50:00

the United States in her contributions

50:02

to the advancement of

50:04

women's rights. You can tell quite a lot in

50:07

People Die, how people respond. Yeah, absolutely

50:09

outpouring. But I guess, Mike, the question

50:11

I have is how comes I

50:13

know Estée Lauder, but

50:16

I don't know Madam C.J. Walker in

50:18

the same way? What happened to all of it?

50:20

Well, the money went to A'Lelia, and A'Lelia spent

50:22

quite a lot of it, I think, hardly

50:25

again. But the one thing

50:27

I want to ask, actually, A'Lelia is, we mentioned the beginning,

50:30

the literal million dollar question, was

50:33

Sarah Walker the first

50:36

female self-made millionaire in American

50:38

history? So when she died,

50:40

her actual net worth was right

50:42

around $600,000, all

50:45

in, like everything on the

50:47

table. The press persisted, though,

50:49

in saying that she was

50:51

a millionaire. In truth,

50:54

it's probably the

50:56

case that Annie Malone was

50:58

the first person. Malone! She

51:00

made a man! Let's not

51:02

forget, Madam C.J. Walker did like

51:04

to underestimate her income. Yeah, that's true. How

51:09

much is the lawyer hiding in here? Is that true? But

51:12

he wants window! So

51:19

they're part of the show where Athena and

51:21

I get scalp massages, and as

51:23

I know, no leeway can take to the conference

51:25

stage to tell us something that we need to

51:28

know about Madam C.J. Walker. No leeway, you have

51:30

two minutes, take it away, please. So

51:32

for my nuance, I suppose what

51:34

I most want everyone to understand

51:36

is the significance of what

51:39

Walker was able to do in really

51:41

being an innovator

51:43

in the Black Beauty space, but

51:45

more starting a

51:48

business that at its marketing

51:50

core, every ad early on,

51:53

every engagement, every newspaper article

51:55

talked about how Black women deserve to

51:58

be treated well. how

52:00

a visit to the Walker

52:02

beauty salon should be an opportunity

52:04

for black women to be massaged,

52:07

petted, made out over, made

52:09

to relax. She talked about

52:11

how hard black women worked and

52:13

that the opportunity that Walker agents

52:16

while earning money for themselves

52:18

through beauty and hair care could

52:20

support their sisters, could

52:22

possibly be one of the

52:24

few spaces in American society

52:27

that provided this sense of

52:29

rest and comfort and care for

52:31

the hardest working black women working

52:33

the worst jobs, the least paid

52:36

jobs regularly. That's a real

52:38

kind of intervention and it is

52:40

different than what Annie Malone did

52:42

in terms of her advertising, in

52:44

terms of how she told people

52:47

her products were better than others.

52:49

But also in addition to what

52:51

she was able to do for the clientele

52:54

who when she started this company, 90%

52:56

of black women, the

52:58

only jobs open to them were

53:00

in agriculture, some kind of farming,

53:02

going back to Walker's early

53:04

years being a sharecropper, working

53:07

for low wages, never able to

53:09

actually get ahead and

53:11

buy anything for yourself of note. She

53:14

made it possible for black women to not

53:16

have to serve as domestics or

53:19

agricultural workers. She started an

53:21

entire beauty culture,

53:24

beauty salon, beauty

53:26

industry for black people and whatever

53:29

else we think about her, we really,

53:31

really have to make sure we understand

53:33

that is a significant intervention. Beautiful.

53:36

Thank you so much, Nolly. What do you think of

53:38

that, Athena? I think that we

53:40

talk about the trickle down economy, right?

53:43

The idea that you can be extremely

53:45

rich as long as it is of

53:47

benefit to people. And

53:49

it sounds like she achieved that.

53:51

And she sounds genuinely committed to

53:54

understanding the condition of black Americans

53:56

in America and how she

53:58

can contribute to making it better. You know what,

54:00

I love women. It's about women. It's

54:02

like I want women to work. I

54:04

want women to still get. It's a

54:06

very feminist stance actually. It's not sort

54:08

of girl boss. It's like a boss

54:10

of women to be boss of more

54:12

women to help women which I like.

54:14

Yeah, it's solidarity isn't it? Definitely, yeah.

54:17

I'll shut up as the man in the room. So

54:20

what do you know now? Okay,

54:27

time now for the, what do you know

54:29

now? This is our quickfire quiz for Athena

54:31

to see how much she has learned. Athena,

54:33

you're averaging 9 out of 10 across the

54:35

platform. Oh, you're averaging now? Is there a

54:37

table? There's a table. There's a table. But

54:39

you are a high flyer, so are you

54:41

feeling confident? Okay, so I was thrown because

54:43

I've learned I'm allowed to have a pen

54:46

and paper, but I forgot to take notes

54:48

and sit halfway through. Before, I just had

54:50

to keep all their memories in my

54:52

brain, but I forgot to keep the memories because I thought

54:54

I had a pen and paper, then I forgot to write

54:56

notes. So my batting averages are

54:58

going to go down a little bit. Okay,

55:01

we've got 10 questions for you. Let's see

55:03

how well you do. Question one. What

55:05

low-wage job did Sarah have for much of

55:07

her early life? She was a

55:09

laundry worker. She was a washerwoman

55:12

laundress. Yes. Question two. Where did the name

55:14

Madam C.J. Walker come from? Her

55:16

husband. Yes. Yeah. Right. Charles

55:19

Joseph Walker. Question three. How did Walker claim

55:21

she developed the formula for her hair care

55:23

product that she sold? Out, a vision from

55:25

Jesus Christ himself. Absolutely. Question

55:27

four. What was the name of Walker's rival

55:29

and former boss who claimed that Walker had

55:32

stolen her business? Annie Malone.

55:34

Annie Malone. Yeah. Question

55:36

five. What was the name of the lavish mansion that Walker

55:38

had built in 1918? Villa

55:41

Duaro. Yeah. Very good. Well done. I'll write that

55:43

one down. That's fair. Question

55:45

six. Name two charitable causes that

55:47

Walker donated to in her lifetime? The

55:51

NAACP and the YMCA.

55:54

Yes. Word salad. All the letters. Very

55:56

good. Question seven. What was

55:58

the name of Walker's daughter? who helped

56:00

to run her business and modelled

56:02

for their products. A-lay-z-a-r. Yeah, A-lee-lee-a.

56:05

A-lee-lee-a, excuse me. That's right. Question

56:07

eight. What honorary title was Madam Walker

56:09

given at an African-American business conference in

56:12

1914? This is going

56:14

to be a word salad of the actual title, but

56:16

it's thought to be like the most preeminent businesswoman of

56:18

her race. Yeah, the foremost businesswoman of her race. Yes,

56:20

you can have that one. Question nine. What financial hit

56:22

did Walker take after a new thing was passed in

56:24

1913? Oh, it was

56:27

tax. You had to pay taxation. It was,

56:29

you were allowed to earn $3,000 a year, and

56:31

you had to pay tax above that, and she was

56:33

earning way more than that. She absolutely was, and that's

56:35

very good from memory, wasn't it? When it comes to

56:37

tax, I'm like, you were very happy to know exactly

56:39

it was. This for a perfect 10 out of 10,

56:42

when she died in May 1919, how

56:45

much was Walker worth? Whoa,

56:47

look at you! Yes! 10 out of 10! 10 out

56:49

of 10! And you know what? That one thing I

56:51

wrote down as well, if I had written that down, it

56:53

would have been nine out of 10. Noir-o. Yeah. There we

56:55

go. I was holding my breath like the whole thing.

56:57

Well done, Athena. Thank you so much, Noly-Wei. That was

57:00

wonderful. And listener, if you want to hear more

57:02

of Athena, we have episodes on Mansa Musa, The

57:04

Haitian Revolution, and In Jenga of Ndongo Matamba. All

57:06

fascinating stories, all quite different. And

57:08

for more on A'lelia and Booker T. Washington, you

57:10

can try our episode on the Harlem Renaissance. And

57:13

if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review.

57:15

Share the show with your friends. Subscribe to Your

57:17

Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never

57:19

miss an episode. But all that's left for me

57:21

to do is say a huge thank you to

57:23

our guests in History Corner. We had the incredible

57:25

Professor Noly-Wei Rooks from Brown University. Thank you, Noly-Wei.

57:28

Thank you for having me. And in Comedy

57:31

Corner, we have the quiz queen herself.

57:33

You're amazing. Athena Koblenu, thank you, Athena.

57:35

Thank you. I feel vindicated in

57:38

feeling like the queen of your dead to

57:40

me. Absolutely. Maybe you can get yourself a

57:42

seventh burner hob. Finally, finally. And

57:45

to you lovely listener, join me next time as we

57:48

comb through more history, looking for more fascinating stories. But

57:50

for now, I'm also going to launch my own History

57:52

Media Platform. I didn't steal the idea from Dan Snow.

57:54

In case you made a dream. Bye.

57:58

Bye. This episode

58:00

of Your Dead To Me was researched by Andrew

58:02

Himmelberg. It was written by Emmy Rose Price-Giffello, Emma

58:04

Negus and me. The audio producer was

58:06

Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Caitlin

58:09

Hobbs. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price-Giffello

58:11

and me and our senior producer was Emma

58:13

Negus and the executive editor was Chris Ledyard.

58:27

Hello, I'm Dr Michael Moseley and

58:29

in my BBC Radio 4 podcast

58:31

Just One Thing, I'm investigating some

58:34

quick, simple and surprising ways to

58:36

improve your health and life. So

58:38

which will you try? Maybe

58:41

some green tea to boost

58:43

your brain power. Time's up. We're

58:45

doing the plank to lower

58:47

your blood pressure. How

58:50

about snacking smartly? Delicious. To

58:52

benefit your heart health. So

58:55

to benefit your brain and body in

58:57

ways you might not expect, here's just

58:59

one thing you can do right

59:01

now. Subscribe to the

59:03

podcast on BBC Sam. Being

59:10

a winner on Valentine's is easy. It's flowers.

59:12

Don't forget the flowers. Enter early at 1-800-flowers.com

59:14

and you'll be entered for a chance to

59:16

win $10,000 cash, a

59:19

bouquet that's guaranteed to wow and a chance at winning

59:21

$10,000 cash. Just

59:24

go to 1-800-flowers.com/ACAST.

59:26

That's 1-800-flowers.com/ACAST. No purchase necessary. End

59:28

at 1159 E.T. on 2424. Open

59:32

to legal residents at the 50 U.S. and D.C. 18 years of age

59:34

or older. Sponsor as 1-800-Flowers Inc. For

59:36

free entry method official rules

59:38

visit www.1-800-Flowers.com/ weeks. How

59:41

did Hitler's sexuality shape his worldview?

59:44

Why did the Black Death lead

59:46

to the rise of the witch

59:48

trials? And what are some of

59:50

the sources scandals involving kings and

59:52

queens at Hampton Court? I

59:55

don't know about you, but this is the

59:57

history I want to hear about. do

1:00:00

too then join me, Tate Lister, every

1:00:02

Tuesday and Friday to find out the

1:00:05

answers to all of these questions and

1:00:07

more. Listen to Betwixt the Sheets, the

1:00:09

history of sex scandal in society, wherever

1:00:12

you get your podcasts. Brought to you

1:00:14

by History Hit.