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Sounds Music Radio podcasts,

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Oh and welcome to You're dead to

1:29

me. The Radio For Comedy podcast the

1:31

takes history seriously. My name is Greg.

1:33

Jenna on the public is doing author

1:35

a broadcaster. They were jumping into a

1:37

Ford Model to and motoring back the

1:39

nineteenth century America to learn all about

1:41

the blue, be successful Black hair care

1:43

entrepreneur madam Cj Walker and to help

1:45

us we have to very special guests

1:48

in History Corner. She's the L. Herbert

1:50

Hulu University Professor of African Studies at

1:52

Brown University in America. She researchers the

1:54

cultural and racial implications of beauty fashioned

1:56

hundred dormant. as well as race capitalism and

1:58

education you may have read when many books

2:00

including Hair Raising, Beauty, Culture and

2:02

African American Women is Professor Noeliwe

2:05

Rooks. Welcome Noeliwe. Thank you so much

2:07

for having me. Absolute pleasure to have

2:09

you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning

2:11

comedian and writer. You'll have heard her loads on

2:13

BBC Radio 4 and on all

2:15

the podcasts, including The Guilty Feminist and her own

2:18

show Keeping Athena Company. You may have seen her

2:20

on the telly on Mock the Week and of

2:22

course you'll remember her from her starring roles in

2:24

our previous episodes about the Haitian Revolution, Matsumusa and

2:26

Injinga of Indongo Matamba. And Athena Koblanu. Welcome back

2:28

Athena. Fourth time looking. I know. Thank you for

2:31

having me back. Thank you. Well,

2:33

we love having you on. Today we're on

2:35

American History. So I'm curious, are you comfortable

2:38

in 19th century American history, 20th century American history? I'm

2:41

going to say you've made a mistake

2:43

today. You've hired two experts. Oh no.

2:45

I have seen the Netflix

2:48

account of Madam C.J. Walker's life with

2:50

Octavia Spencer. So I kind of feel like that

2:52

no one's going to be funny today. It would

2:54

just be two people, you know everything about her

2:56

life. Sorry. I

2:58

guess I'll try and be funny. I don't know. So

3:00

what do you know? You're

3:07

listening from the US. You're probably going to

3:10

know about Madam C.J. Walker. I think she's

3:12

quite a big deal stateside. If you're a

3:14

fan of the Guinness World Records, you might

3:16

know that Madam C.J. Walker was the first

3:18

American woman to be a self-made millionaire. But

3:21

how did Madam C.J. Walker rise from rags

3:23

to riches? What did she splash her cash

3:25

on? And when exactly did

3:27

Jesus Christ himself get into the haircare business?

3:30

Let's find out. So

3:32

Professor Noliewe, we don't

3:34

meet many babies called Madam, so that's not

3:36

going to be her name at birth. So

3:39

who was she and what was her origin

3:41

story, please? Yes, no, she was not

3:43

named Madam at birth. She

3:46

was actually named Sarah, Sarah

3:48

Breedlove. And she was born

3:50

in December of 1867 in

3:52

Delta, Louisiana. Her family were

3:55

sharecroppers, which was a system

3:57

that meant that they formed the land they lived

3:59

on. and then paid rent to the

4:01

people who actually owned the land. When

4:03

she was born, she was the only one who

4:06

was not born into slavery. She was the first

4:08

one in her family that was actually born free

4:11

and is considered a US

4:13

citizen at birth. And her

4:15

birthday was only days before

4:17

the five-year anniversary of Abraham

4:19

Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, which

4:21

had freed the enslaved black people

4:24

of America in January

4:26

of 1863. Do you

4:28

know when your little siblings get an easier

4:30

life than you? That's the ultimate version of

4:32

that, isn't it? Yeah. Surely at

4:34

that point you celebrate it, right? Would

4:37

her siblings have celebrated the opportunity she

4:39

would therefore have? She and her siblings

4:41

do not appear to have been close.

4:44

And unfortunately, it's not clear how close she

4:46

was. With her parents, they died within

4:48

18 months of each other. And

4:51

so she was orphaned at the time. She was

4:53

about eight. She had to move in with one

4:55

of her older sisters and her sister's husband,

4:58

a man named Jesse Powell. Even

5:00

though Sarah was only 11 when

5:02

all of this was going on, he

5:05

demanded that she economically contribute to

5:07

the household income. So it's a rags to

5:09

riches fairy tale that we're hoping to get

5:11

in the end, but it's beginning with an

5:13

orphan girl working for her keep, only 11.

5:16

What kind of job do you think she was doing at 11 Athena? Oh,

5:19

God, I can only imagine. I mean, I don't think

5:21

I had paper rounds in those days. I

5:23

feel like it would be something laborious,

5:25

something that is bad for your nails

5:27

and your hands. Good instincts. It was

5:29

laundress. It is the lowest

5:31

of the low, but at least she's escaped from

5:34

her cruel brother-in-law. I mean, how do you think

5:36

she then tries to get away from him? Okay,

5:38

let me get into the mind of a young person who

5:40

has a horrible job and wants to get away. It's

5:43

not a man, is it? They don't just, please

5:45

don't say it's a man. Like, oh, no,

5:47

it is. She finds a guy and goes,

5:49

you'll do. Have you read the

5:52

script? Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what happens. She's

5:54

a very Cinderella move. She marries the first

5:56

man she sees. Not a handsome

5:58

person. Don't do it, Sarah! No. Glass

6:00

slipper required. Unfortunately also she's only

6:02

14. Oh no. So I

6:04

have to honk my problematic marriage glaxon. And

6:07

she marries her not so Prince Charming. Nellie

6:10

Wade does this man live up to my

6:12

Disney expectations? This is the frog that never

6:14

turns into a prince. Oh

6:17

no. Her Prince Charming

6:19

was named Moses McWilliams.

6:21

They stayed married a few years. By the time she

6:23

was 18, she and

6:25

Moses had one daughter, Lillia, the only child

6:28

that she would ever have. And

6:30

then in 1888, Moses died. Sarah

6:33

ends up a widow and a single mother

6:35

at the age of 20. I'm

6:37

clinging to the fact that she's going to

6:40

end up successful in a millionaire. But we're

6:42

still a long way from that happy ever

6:44

after. So where does this young single mother,

6:46

this young widow, what does she

6:48

do with her life next? No leeway. So Sarah

6:50

and her young daughter, Lillia, get

6:52

on a steamboat heading north up

6:54

to St. Louis. Sarah moved

6:56

into one of the poorest areas in the

6:59

city and took a job as a laundress.

7:01

Again, work she knew how to do. So

7:03

for much of the next decade, she worked six

7:05

days a week as a washer woman and went

7:08

to church on her Sunday day off. Because obviously

7:10

at the beginning, we said she was born into

7:13

freedom, right? But there doesn't seem to be

7:15

a lot of freedom, does it? Like she

7:17

doesn't seem to have a lot of life

7:19

choices. It's just the same America with different

7:21

paperwork. Yeah. You know, the admin is a

7:23

little different. So 1889, she's moved up to

7:25

St. Louis. Is that Missouri? Yes.

7:27

Yeah. I know that because of Nelly. Okay,

7:30

cool. But

7:33

in 1894, and 27, she finds herself a new fella. He's

7:37

called John Davis. No leeway.

7:39

Is John Davis a higher

7:41

standard of man? Very soon

7:43

after she got married, she regretted

7:45

the marriage almost instantly. John

7:48

struggled a lot. He couldn't quite find

7:50

work. She still had to work as

7:52

a laundress. He also had another girlfriend

7:54

on top of all of this. Times

7:57

have always been tough. It's not just now, guys.

8:00

The times have been tough for 150 years. I

8:02

feel good about that. Yeah, he's got another

8:04

lady. But to make it even worse, like the little

8:07

bit of money that Sarah is making as a laundress, he's

8:10

taking it and dividing it between

8:12

both women. And then more

8:14

seriously, because it gets worse, he

8:17

was an alcoholic and he was abusive when

8:19

drunk. And then in 1903,

8:21

he claimed that Sarah had deserted him,

8:23

despite him being the one with the

8:25

girlfriend. And this was the

8:27

end of Sarah and John's

8:30

six-year relationship, and she went

8:32

back to being called Sarah

8:34

McWilliams. This woman cannot catch a break. She can't

8:36

catch a break, and I think the great poet in there has

8:38

just said, to the left, to the left, you know. I've packed

8:40

your stuff. It's in a box. She should

8:42

have done that before he did it to her, and it's a

8:44

lesson for us all. Well, in

8:46

1902, Sarah, she has dumped John Davis. She's

8:48

in her mid-30s now. Prime. Prime.

8:51

She's flirty. Singular mingling. Yeah,

8:53

and she meets another man, and

8:55

this guy is called Charles Joseph

8:58

Walker. CJ Walker. Are you

9:00

getting good vibes? At this stage, no. As she

9:02

might not know the story, at this stage, I'm

9:04

like, why are you still meeting men? But

9:06

it sounds promising, because I'm assuming

9:09

that this is the Walker of

9:11

her Walker name. Yes, this is

9:13

her last marriage, so there's at

9:16

least that. And Charles was, in

9:18

the census, describes him as a

9:21

newsman, and it's likely that

9:23

he worked for one of St. Louis's

9:25

three black newspapers, probably a newspaper at

9:27

the time called the Clarion. He

9:30

was known, people around who were writing about

9:32

him at the time, said he had a

9:34

lot of charisma, and that he had a

9:36

lot of drive. He was a working man.

9:38

So, so, how soon do you think about it? My mom

9:40

always said, beware of a charming man. I

9:43

can't explain that. Beware of a charming man. Unfortunately,

9:47

your mother was not there for Sarah

9:49

at the time. This

9:51

is when Sarah, as

9:53

we know her, takes the first step on

9:56

the path to become Madame CJ Walker, and

9:58

the start of that journey is being killed. a sales

10:00

agent for another black beauty entrepreneur

10:03

called Annie Malone. No, leeway is

10:05

that right? Yes. Yes. So

10:07

in St. Louis in 1903, Sarah

10:10

starts working as a sales agent

10:12

for a woman named Annie Turnbull

10:14

Malone selling hair care products

10:16

door to door to other black women. Sarah

10:19

had dangerous and she had psoriasis of

10:21

the scalp as did other black women.

10:24

And so she wanted to show her

10:26

hair instead of having it wrapped up

10:28

all the time. She wanted healthy hair,

10:30

a healthy scalp and white owned companies

10:33

in this period while pretending to be

10:35

black owned often told black

10:37

women, you know, you should just straighten your

10:39

hair or use our products for your hair.

10:42

But Malone and later, Madam Walker,

10:44

the niche that they came up

10:46

with was providing products that actually

10:49

nourished and helped manage black hair

10:51

and not just control it. What

10:53

door to door sales generally a

10:56

thing or was that innovative as well at

10:58

that time? A woman a few

11:00

years before named Estee Lauder. Oh,

11:02

yeah, I know her. Yeah, my

11:04

mum, yeah, she's my mum likes her stuff. Unfortunately,

11:07

she had actually started this as an

11:09

immigrant woman as a way of making

11:11

ends meet on the East Coast in

11:13

the US. She was sort of the

11:16

first but Malone and Walker are the

11:18

first black people. Sarah, who now

11:20

we might want to start referring to Madam

11:22

Walker, perhaps she often would tell a compelling

11:24

origin story of where she learned the formula

11:26

for her own hair sales for her scalp.

11:28

Do you want to guess what the story

11:30

is? I want to say that she got

11:32

a vision, but I think who would give

11:35

you the vision? There's nobody there's no kind

11:37

of spiritual God that is like, Hey, you

11:39

want better hair? But at the end of

11:41

the day, like hair lines are important. I

11:43

mean, my hair lines go and I wouldn't

11:45

mind the vision now to be honest. Jesus

11:48

Christ himself comes to her in a dream. He

11:50

has great hair. He has great hair. Whatever. Even

11:52

like whether you see a black Jesus or white

11:54

Jesus, the one consistent thing is the hair is

11:56

good. Yeah. Yeah. No, leeway. I'm

11:58

familiar with Christ offering salvation but not

12:00

so much salve. Black people are hilarious. What

12:03

are you just telling me? He

12:05

told me he had to deal with my ends.

12:07

Yeah. So tell us about Black Jesus and his

12:09

hair care routine. So

12:12

Sarah said that one night she

12:14

was praying for a solution to

12:17

her hair problems, her hair falling

12:19

out, having dandruff, psoriasis. That

12:22

evening she had a dream and

12:24

Black Jesus, Jesus who as he

12:26

appeared to her was a Black

12:28

man and gave her a secret recipe

12:30

for a hair salve. She

12:33

got the ingredients, made up the recipe, tried

12:35

it on herself, tried it on her friends

12:37

and family. It worked wonders,

12:39

hair grew forth, scalps were

12:41

healthy. So all of this

12:43

happened while Sarah was still working

12:45

for Annie Malone. Now Annie

12:48

became angry and challenged the

12:51

story of Jesus giving.

12:53

No. It sounds so legit. Annie wanted the world

12:55

to know that Sarah stole the recipe from her.

13:03

The real reason for the success of

13:06

both women's products was likely their

13:08

promotion of a regime of regular

13:10

shampoos and scout massages. Both of

13:13

their products used a sulfur-based formula

13:15

that neither had invented, but both

13:17

became fierce rivals for the rest

13:19

of their career after this supposed

13:22

betrayal. Okay

13:24

so after her divine encounter in July

13:26

1905, Sarah boarded a train for

13:29

Denver with a pocket full of dreams and a

13:31

bag full of Annie Malone's hair care products. To

13:35

what extent is she heading out on

13:37

her own and what extent is she

13:39

going to be there selling Annie's

13:41

products? She also opened a small

13:43

workshop and started to focus on

13:45

making and selling her own products

13:47

door-to-door. She probably had

13:49

good customer networks because she

13:51

had been selling Malone's products.

13:54

By January of 1906 she and

13:57

Charles Walker were married and she started marketing

13:59

her own products. her Walker's Wonderful

14:01

Hair Grower. And that's

14:03

the first time she starts calling herself

14:05

Madam C.J. Walker. The

14:07

Walker business was multifaceted, it

14:09

manufactured haircare products, sold them

14:11

door to door, trained sales

14:14

agents, did mail orders, and

14:16

also taught haircare at salons that

14:18

they opened. Wow. So

14:20

she left Denver in about 1906. Sarah

14:24

and Charles arrive in Indianapolis around

14:26

1910, and

14:28

they get a warm welcome from

14:30

the local black community, and there's

14:32

great industrial conditions there. So

14:35

they established their headquarters, and

14:38

one of the reasons that they actually

14:40

left Denver was because of its small

14:42

black community. It was also, because as

14:44

soon as Walker started to do well

14:47

in Denver, Annie Malone came

14:49

along and set up a rival

14:51

salon right across town. I need

14:53

that. Let it go. So they

14:56

picked up and moved to Indianapolis, and

14:58

things went well. Yeah, I mean, Annie, as

15:00

I understand it, was in the same street?

15:02

Is that right? Yeah, yeah, right next door,

15:04

actually. Yes, she came and bought a bigger

15:06

place, literally, right next door. What's

15:08

really sad here is there's space for both

15:10

of them to be millionaires,

15:13

but she was cut... Yes, it was the

15:15

resentment, it was an avenger. Yeah. By

15:18

1911, the company's thriving, and

15:20

it becomes incorporated, too. It becomes a registered

15:22

company. That's a big deal for

15:24

a woman whose family were enslaved, and she's come

15:26

from a hard, scrabble

15:29

life. It's a part of why she's so

15:31

popular, is because it really is a big

15:33

turnaround story. So by 1911, Madam has

15:35

a factory in Indianapolis. She

15:38

is 950 sales agents. She's

15:42

got thousands of customers, multiple

15:44

hair parlors, and a substantial

15:47

personal net worth, and she had

15:49

really made it as a businesswoman.

15:52

But while the business is doing

15:54

great guns, Noliwe, we once again

15:56

have to say the men in

15:58

her life... appointments.

16:00

Yeah, so she was a business

16:03

genius obviously, but her marriage

16:05

radar might not have been great.

16:07

So the way the story goes

16:09

is that while he was on a business

16:11

trip in 1912, Charles

16:13

met a woman named Dora

16:16

Larry and Dora actually ran

16:18

the Walker salon on the

16:20

campus of Tuskegee University in

16:22

Birmingham, Alabama. While

16:25

there, Dora convinced Charles that Sarah

16:27

was treating him badly and

16:29

that he should join forces with

16:31

her. It's on him, alright, it's

16:34

not Dora. Okay, like oh I didn't I

16:36

didn't want to do it but she told me you were horrible.

16:38

No. Find

16:41

another excuse. So of

16:43

course it didn't take long for Sarah

16:45

to discover that Charles and Dora

16:48

were having this affair and

16:50

she confirmed it by actually listening

16:53

through the keyhole at their hotel

16:55

room in Atlanta. We're

16:57

told that she came very close to

16:59

almost shooting Charles, but she thought better

17:01

of it, but she did go

17:03

back to Indianapolis immediately and begin

17:05

divorce proceedings. One

17:08

of the things that she carried out

17:10

of the divorce was the name CJ

17:12

Walker, Madam CJ Walker, and the branding

17:14

because it was so much a part

17:16

of her business and her branding. So she

17:18

dumped him but kept the name. I came

17:20

into this room thinking, surely

17:23

I'm gonna leave liking men more. So

17:27

Sarah Walker, she's keeping the name.

17:29

She dumped her cheating husband. The

17:32

business is thriving. In a previous

17:34

episode, we did the Harlem Renaissance

17:36

and we spoke about

17:38

Lelia, her daughter throwing these big

17:40

lavish parties in Harlem and really

17:42

living the life. So

17:45

now, Lelia, does Lelia learn

17:47

from her mum? Is Sarah starting

17:49

to splash their cash and post

17:51

these kind of lavish soirees? How

17:54

affluent are we talking? So, you

17:56

know, they both like to live a life of luxury

17:58

and they start to be a part of the relationship. spent money

18:00

on cars and real estate, including

18:03

a home on 136th Street in

18:05

New York and Harlem. Madam

18:07

Walker started throwing lavish parties every

18:09

April when Lillia visited the

18:11

Indianapolis headquarters, where she hosted

18:14

prominent black musicians, dancers, poets,

18:16

and performers. But

18:19

by this point, Madam Walker wanted

18:21

to be seen as wealthy, influential,

18:23

and important. And black newspapers and

18:26

magazines helped to propagate this image

18:28

of her. Was she a good

18:30

employer? The thing about most of

18:32

the people in her business is they end

18:35

up being sort of freelancers, or

18:37

what the term would be, and franchise would

18:39

probably be a better way. You sort of paid

18:41

some money to the company, you got some of

18:43

the products, but it allowed people

18:45

who had a certain kind of drive, a

18:48

certain kind of charm, and who

18:50

wanted to have some freedom around their

18:53

economic life, any black woman could

18:55

buy into it and start to

18:57

build a base. So it

18:59

wasn't so much that she was everyone's boss,

19:02

her model was much more about just empowering

19:04

her workers to stand on their own, and

19:06

they were quite fond of her. It's Annie

19:08

Malone, isn't it? Like, Annie Malone wanted it

19:10

all for herself, right? But

19:13

Madam CEO Walker's gone, actually, you can

19:16

have it, just give me a percentage

19:18

of what you sell, right? But there's

19:20

a certain element of real anxiety for

19:22

Sarah because she doesn't feel she belongs.

19:25

Imposter syndrome, imposter syndrome alert.

19:28

We all have it, mine is to a slightly lesser scale.

19:30

I've got a six burner hob, and some sort

19:33

of, do I deserve these two extra hobs and

19:35

I don't use? I often

19:37

question what I did to deserve such a big

19:39

cook up. No,

19:41

leeway, I think we have here

19:43

someone who's come such a long way

19:46

from her childhood of poverty, and

19:48

now hanging out with these brilliant people, a

19:50

lot of whom are intellectuals. How

19:53

does she get around this fear of

19:55

being in their company and feeling like

19:57

she's not educated? I mean, she was...

20:00

someone who just hadn't even had the

20:02

benefit of the most rudimentary kind of

20:04

formal education. So she hires

20:06

a tutor in secret, a

20:09

woman named Alice Kelly, who was

20:11

also the forelady in one of

20:13

her factories. Because she

20:15

wanted to be involved with the

20:17

Black intelligentsia, she had to figure

20:19

out how to ingratiate herself with

20:22

leaders like Booker T. Washington. In

20:24

January 1912, Washington held

20:26

a gathering that was called the

20:29

Negro Farmers Conference. Walker

20:31

wanted to go and speak about her

20:33

products, but she received a very curt

20:36

refusal from him. So she

20:38

showed up at his home to hand him

20:40

a letter, because she wanted to persuade him

20:42

the letter speak, and she wanted for him

20:45

to know that she thought of herself as

20:47

a former farmer who had made something of

20:49

herself. And she wanted to highlight the

20:51

work she was doing for the Black community. And

20:54

this work, this gumption worked for her, and

20:56

she got to speak for 10 minutes. At

20:59

the one in 1914, she was

21:01

given the title of the foremost

21:03

businesswoman of our race. So

21:06

Madam C.J. Walker, the foremost businesswoman of

21:08

our race. Pop that on

21:10

your letterhead, that's great, isn't it? Yeah, I

21:12

mean, I don't know how you qualify that.

21:14

I'd probably take exception there. That's

21:16

like, well, I mean, imagine that on your

21:19

email signature. I guess

21:21

Annie Malone would be furious to hear that. Well,

21:24

you know, that's well, I wanted to be.

21:29

Yeah, you wouldn't even conceive that

21:31

that exists as a title. OK, so

21:33

Madam Walker, she wants to do good. And

21:36

that charitable element of giving to a certain

21:38

extent is good for the brand, but it's

21:40

genuine, too. Absolutely. She did a lot of

21:43

charity work. We know she did a lot

21:45

of charity work because she told us she

21:47

did a lot of charity work. She

21:50

contributed to the NAACP

21:52

National Association of Colored

21:54

People's anti-lynching campaign. She

21:57

regularly distributed food baskets

21:59

to. poor neighbors around Christmas.

22:02

She actually talked about and saw

22:04

her company as a form of

22:06

philanthropy. And she believed that

22:08

by giving black women sales jobs and

22:11

teaching them to be hairdressers, that she

22:13

was helping them to avoid lives

22:15

of hard labor in domestic service or

22:17

in factories. And so from 1917,

22:20

she also held annual conferences

22:22

to encourage her sales agents

22:24

to support political causes. And

22:26

they would spend mornings discussing

22:28

business and afternoons discussing politics

22:30

in the public sessions. I'm

22:33

a big fan of giving

22:35

loudly. If I buy a

22:37

10,000 pound jumper,

22:39

and that logo is on my

22:41

shirt, that should be quiet. But if I give 10

22:44

grand to the anti-lynching league, I need to tell people

22:46

about that. I think we should all be loud about

22:48

how much we give. And people are like, what have

22:50

you given me recently? And I'll be quiet now. But

22:52

I don't have anything. Just the hope. That's all I

22:55

have. The six-burner-hop. Available from your house.

22:58

I mean, in 1917, we've

23:00

got her holding this annual convention where she's

23:02

teaching politics in the afternoon. But we also

23:05

get America entering the First World War. How

23:07

does our philanthropist respond to

23:09

this new national crisis? Really

23:12

what she did is she started to

23:14

give money to improve conditions for black

23:16

servicemen who were serving under

23:18

conditions of Jim Crow segregation in the

23:21

military. By the end of September

23:23

of 1917, she attended

23:25

the National Equal Rights League's annual

23:27

convention. And here she's rubbing

23:30

shoulders with women like Ida B. Wells

23:32

and others. And she discussed the

23:34

continued silence from the White House

23:36

on issues about race and racism

23:39

in the U.S. And

23:41

like other black intellectuals in America, she

23:43

made plans to attend the Paris Peace

23:45

Talks after the war to

23:47

advocate for global and national black interests,

23:49

though she didn't actually end up going.

23:52

The question I want to ask is, Madam C. Gibb Walker,

23:54

does she get a sort of peaceful retirement? I'm guessing the

23:56

answer is no. She works until the very

23:58

end. This company is... her everything

24:00

when you think about where she came from and near

24:03

the end of her life where she was, she wanted

24:05

to protect it. In 1918, she made $276,000 more or

24:07

less, which was

24:12

an increase of over $100,000 from the previous year. Then

24:14

by 1919, Madam Walker embarked

24:20

on her final tour where she again

24:22

fell ill. And in May of 1919,

24:24

she slipped into

24:26

a coma and on the 25th of that

24:28

month, she died. Sarah's last words

24:30

on her deathbed, I want to live to

24:32

help my race. So I

24:35

think we get a sense of her psychology

24:37

there. Yeah. Nellie Way, how did the world

24:39

react to the death? Because I think, you

24:41

talked about the word celebrity earlier, was

24:43

she famous? Was she a celebrity? Was she beloved

24:45

by this point? She was

24:47

completely beloved in part because of

24:50

all of the charitable work, in

24:52

part because she was featured

24:54

in black newspapers all over the country.

24:57

And then the Walker hairdressers

24:59

were parts of black communities all over the

25:01

country. So when she died,

25:03

it reverberated around

25:06

the nation. Even the

25:08

mainstream white press noticed her death

25:10

and wrote about her significance, but

25:12

black newspapers made a special occasion

25:14

of it. They talked about all

25:16

of her contributions to hair care,

25:18

her contributions to the rights of

25:20

black people in the United States

25:22

and her contributions to the advancement

25:24

of women's rights. You can tell quite

25:26

a lot in People Die, how people respond. Yeah,

25:29

absolutely outpouring. But I guess, Mike, the

25:31

question I have is how comes I

25:33

know Estee Lauder, but I don't know

25:35

Madam C.J. Walker in the same way? Like

25:37

what happened to all of it? Well, the

25:40

money went to A'Lelia and A'Lelia spent quite

25:42

a lot of it. The one thing I

25:44

want to

25:47

ask A'Lelia is we mentioned the

25:49

beginning, the literal million dollar question,

25:52

was Sarah Walker

25:54

the first female self-made millionaire

25:56

in American history? So when

25:59

she died... her actual net worth was

26:01

right around $600,000 all in, like everything on the

26:03

table. The

26:06

new ones, window! They're

26:13

part of the show where Athena and I

26:16

get scouts massages and as no leeway can

26:18

take to the conference stage to tell us

26:20

something that we need to know about Madame

26:22

CJ Walker. No leeway you have two minutes

26:24

take it away please. So for

26:27

my nuance I suppose what I

26:29

most want everyone to understand is

26:31

the significance of what Walker was

26:34

able to do and really

26:36

being an innovator in the black

26:38

beauty space but more starting

26:41

a business that at its

26:43

marketing core every ad early

26:45

on, every engagement, every

26:48

newspaper article talked about how

26:50

black women deserve to be treated

26:52

well. How a visit

26:54

to the Walker beauty salon

26:56

should be an opportunity for

26:59

black women to be massaged,

27:01

petted, made out over, made

27:03

to relax. She talked about how

27:05

hard black women worked and that

27:07

the opportunity that Walker agents while

27:10

earning money for themselves through

27:12

beauty and haircare could support

27:14

their sisters, could possibly be

27:16

one of the few spaces

27:18

in American society that provided

27:21

this sense of rest and

27:23

comfort and care for the

27:25

hardest working black women, working the

27:27

worst jobs, the least paid jobs

27:30

regularly. That's a real kind of

27:32

intervention and it is different than

27:34

what Annie Malone did in terms

27:37

of her advertising, in terms of

27:39

how she told people her products

27:41

were better than others but also

27:43

in addition to what she was able

27:45

to do for the clientele who when

27:47

she started this company, 90% of

27:50

black women, the only jobs open

27:52

to them were in agriculture, some

27:54

kind of farming, going back to

27:56

Walker's early years being a

27:59

sharecropper, working. for low wages,

28:01

never able to actually get ahead

28:03

and buy anything for yourself of

28:05

note, she made it

28:07

possible for black women to not have to serve

28:09

as domestics or agricultural

28:11

workers. She started an

28:13

entire beauty culture,

28:16

beauty industry for black

28:18

people and whatever else we think about

28:20

her, we really, really have to make

28:22

sure we understand that is a significant

28:24

intervention. Beautiful, thank you so

28:26

much Noly Way. All that's left for me to

28:29

do is say a huge thank you to our

28:31

guests in History Corner. We have the incredible Professor

28:33

Noly Way Rooks from Brown University. Thank you Noly

28:35

Way. Thank you for having me. And

28:38

in Comedy Corner, the amazing Athena Koblenu.

28:40

Thank you Athena. Thank you. And

28:43

to you lovely listener, join me next time as we

28:45

comb through more history looking for more fascinating stories. But

28:47

for now, I'm also going to launch my own History

28:49

Media platform. I didn't steal the idea from Dan Snow.

28:52

Take me in a dream. Bye. From

29:01

BBC Radio 4, Scott Lidster, you've

29:03

directed another terrible film, The Fifteenths,

29:05

in as many years. When are

29:07

you going to stop? No

29:09

Room. I simply told them that they

29:11

were taking another commission on race and ethnic disparities. They

29:14

said, well, as long as Tin, Tin, Tin, Tin and

29:16

Tin were on the team, they'll have everything sorted before

29:18

the two biscuits are right. No Room. Jack

29:21

wasn't familiar with my BAFTA award-winning

29:23

style of walking around my guest's

29:25

house before the interview starts and

29:27

saying uncomfortably forced and awkward, boring

29:29

things. Michael Spicer, No Room.

29:31

It's a sketch show with

29:34

lots and lots and lots and lots

29:36

and lots of Michael Spicer. Look them

29:38

on BBC News. Gail

29:43

Katz told friends she was leaving her

29:45

husband Bob, then went missing. On Season

29:48

1 of The Girlfriends, Bob's ex-girlfriends came

29:50

together to bring him down and seek

29:52

justice. I can't believe this. Now

29:54

on Season 2, host Carol Fisher is

29:56

back, working to solve the mystery of

29:58

another missing woman. It's almost like it's become

30:00

this moral obligation to find

30:02

her. Listen to The Girlfriends, Our Lost

30:05

Sister, on America's number one podcast network,

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