1:59

to 1422, very specific. It's

2:02

Dr. Adam Chapman. Welcome Adam. Hi, Greg.

2:04

Lovely to have you here and in Comedy

2:07

Corner. She's an award winning comedian, writer, podcaster

2:09

and broadcaster. You may have seen her on the telly

2:12

on things like Have a Good News for You, Live at the Apollo,

2:14

Would I Lie to You and Frankie Boyle's New World Order.

2:17

Best of all, of course, you'll remember her from our episode

2:19

on Medieval Animals. It's Welsh Wonder

2:21

Woman, Kiri Pritchard-McLean. Welcome back, Kiri.

2:24

Oh, I'm so glad to be back. And

2:26

I'm so excited to be talking about

2:28

this because I mean, it was

2:30

so funny that you put those rules in for your podcasts. And

2:32

I was really disappointed because as a historical

2:35

basic bitch, I'm very interested in both those subjects.

2:37

Well,

2:40

you are, I'm not gonna call you basic

2:42

at all, you are representative of most

2:44

people. Everyone loves these stories.

2:46

But we decided when we started the show, we wouldn't

2:49

do those because everyone else does them so well. So

2:51

we're trying to do different stuff. But today

2:53

we are slightly bending our rules. And

2:55

we know from last time when you're on the show that you really

2:57

enjoyed history at school, you even put

3:00

history into your recent stand up show. So

3:02

I'm guessing we have two experts on the podcast

3:04

today. Should we just go straight to the quiz? No need for the

3:06

chat? Yeah, I'd

3:08

like myself. Yeah. All

3:11

right, but what do you know about the Tudors before

3:13

they become the kind of glamorous, messy

3:15

dynasty that everyone is so obsessed

3:17

with?

3:18

Yeah, I think they're North Whalian. Because

3:20

I mean, it's quite Welsh to claim people

3:23

as your own. If you've passed through Wales,

3:26

a service station at one point, we will go,

3:28

you know, they're Welsh.

3:29

Well,

3:31

famously to my era, I'm from the Anismore on the island

3:33

at the top of Wales, which is where Dorm French

3:35

grew up. And everyone's like Dorm

3:38

French is from Anglesey, Dorm French is from Anglesey, even

3:40

though every time she's spoken about it, she talks about how much she

3:42

hated her time here as a child. But

3:44

it's good enough for us. So yes,

3:48

I think they're North Whalian. But that's

3:50

all I know, really.

3:51

So what do you know?

3:55

We'll

3:57

start

3:58

as ever with a supporting

3:59

you know. This is where I have a go at guessing what

4:02

our lovely listener will know about today's subjects

4:05

and given the deluge of requests we get

4:07

from listeners for more Tudor history and

4:09

of course the pervasiveness of the Tudors on the school

4:11

curriculum and in popular culture I'm

4:14

gonna bet my house that our listeners know

4:16

who the Tudors are. Even those of you listening

4:18

overseas they are just everywhere

4:21

whether it's Hilary Mantel's Wolf Hall series of

4:23

novels and the TV adaptation, the bazillion

4:26

TV dramas and movies like the Tudors and whatnot,

4:28

the endless TV documentaries, the sheer

4:30

number of stately homes you can visit all

4:33

of which claim to have been visited by Elizabeth

4:35

I. The Tudors are the Ed

4:37

Sheeran of historical dynasties. They are famous,

4:39

they are ginger and you cannot escape them. They will

4:41

find you. And of course

4:43

they have a brilliant foundation story. Henry

4:46

Tudor comes out of nowhere, wins a shock victory

4:48

at the Battle of Bosworth, kills King Richard

4:50

III, ends the Wars of the Roses, gives Shakespeare

4:53

his biggest hit or one of his biggest hits and

4:55

everyone goes hooray the Tudors are here but

4:58

does that story really start here? Of

5:00

course it doesn't. So how did an obscure

5:03

Welsh family end up as Britain's

5:05

most famous monarchs who we deliberately ignore

5:07

on this podcast? Let's find out. Right,

5:11

Henry Tudor, he wins his battle in 1485, that's

5:14

the big year that school kids are meant to learn

5:16

certainly in England but we're not doing 1485 really

5:19

as our start point. Our start point is

5:21

the 1200s which is miles away

5:23

from 1485 so is this when we first

5:26

meet the Tudors? No, for

5:28

a very simple reason. Tudors, you

5:30

know, we adopted a surname for a dynasty

5:33

and that's only coined after all dead. This

5:35

is all to do with James I, James

5:37

VI for Scotland and England who

5:40

decides that what he needs to do is

5:42

to big up his own ancestry

5:44

and to impose a 17th century idea of what that

5:46

should look like because he's descended

5:48

from one of Henry Tudor, Henry VII's

5:51

daughters. So the surname

5:53

does not exist, it's invented later on because

5:55

the Welsh don't have surnames in

5:57

the period. House of Tudor

5:59

is some

5:59

something which is indented after its goal.

6:03

So Welsh naming, as I said, is patronymic. You're

6:05

named after your father. I mean, Kiri knows this

6:07

because her surname, Pritchard, Ape Richard.

6:10

So that's probably developed sometime in the 16th

6:12

century or later because Richard is not a name

6:14

you find in medieval Wales at all, really. Or even

6:16

Richets, which is the Welsh form.

6:18

And you didn't want to be called by that

6:21

Welsh name because

6:22

it means nothing. It's strange to English ears. And

6:25

Henry Tudor was only called Henry Tudor by his opponents

6:27

when they wanted to belittle him. And they wanted to say, this

6:30

man is of no consequence. This man has no importance.

6:32

It's not a name he ever used himself.

6:34

Henry Tudor is not Henry Tudor in

6:36

his lifetime. Oh, I mean,

6:39

immediately we've derailed the whole branding of the episode.

6:42

Sorry. Okay,

6:44

so the people we're discussing today are not actually

6:46

Tudors. And even they were Tudors, they didn't want to be called

6:49

Tudors. Good start. Right. All right. And

6:51

Kiri has suggested North Lelian as

6:53

our origin point for these Tudors, but

6:55

not Tudors. Is Kiri on the money? Yeah,

6:58

she's absolutely Bob-on. The progenitor of the

7:00

family is from Abigaille. He's got

7:02

an Ethel de Charn. He comes from the region

7:04

sort of East of the Erecon, which is known in

7:06

the 13th century as the Four Cantrefs.

7:08

They're modest landowners. You know, they've some local

7:11

importance. But then, you

7:13

know, the powerful world prince, the great Llewelyn

7:16

Voor, brought

7:16

the region under his control. And he's

7:18

expanding Gwynedd. Gwynedd is the top left-hand

7:21

corner of Wales. And he brought the region

7:23

into control. And he needs someone to run it. So

7:26

he gets in with Llewelyn,

7:28

but he's in the service of Llewelyn the Great until from 1215

7:31

until his death in 1240. And

7:34

he was the chief minister. He was the disdain

7:36

or steward. He represented Llewelyn

7:38

in negotiations with English King, kings,

7:41

plural, and had at least six

7:43

sons. And they all followed him into the service.

7:46

It becomes

7:46

a hereditary post. So

7:48

Kiri was spot on with the geography, North Wales,

7:51

Anglesey, kind of Wales, Snowdonia. And

7:54

I mean, the family are working for Llewelyn

7:56

the Great. Then in the late 1200s,

7:58

we get

7:59

My ancestors are supposed to be English, so hello!

8:04

Never far away, are you? Yeah, no, sorry. We've

8:06

come for your land. Terribly sorry. Could we have

8:08

it, please? Have you ever heard of Edward

8:10

Longshanks, Kiri? I'm guessing perhaps you have.

8:12

Yes, I have. But I have

8:15

just heard. I don't know that much information.

8:17

Oh, really? Yeah. I feel like

8:19

maybe not a good guy.

8:21

No, he's

8:23

not Edward the Lovely. No. I

8:25

mean, he's got various nicknames, but I mean,

8:27

Longshanks means he's Longshanks, Longlegs. But

8:30

he's kind of the baddie. He's the villain, right? I

8:32

mean, certainly for the Welsh in

8:34

the late 1200s, he's

8:36

the conqueror. He's coming into crush the

8:39

Welsh, and he famously builds huge

8:41

castles to defend the land that he has taken.

8:44

Harlech and Conway and Bomeris and sort of these glorious

8:46

buildings that you can go and visit. So we've

8:49

had, Adam, these not quite

8:51

Tudors, I'm calling them proto-Tudors.

8:54

We've had them working for the Prince

8:56

of, you know, Cluwellen the Great and his descendants,

8:58

the Princes of Uguenath. And

9:00

then suddenly, he comes in English King, who's now ruling

9:03

everything.

9:04

So do they switch sides? Do they

9:06

join the resistance and fight back? I

9:08

mean, they're right to cynics. So they switch sides.

9:11

They become established in Anglesey at this

9:13

point. And one of the reasons that

9:15

Cluwellen of Greford, the last Prince of Gwyneth, the

9:17

last Prince of Wales, loses is because

9:20

his elites switch sides. They decide, well, actually,

9:22

it's going to be more trouble

9:24

than it's worth sticking a little bit. And we could lose everything.

9:26

We don't want to do that. So

9:28

pure naked self-interest. And this

9:30

is the Tudor story. It's all about what

9:33

they can get for themselves. Got to say,

9:35

they did all right in the end. But sure. So

9:38

they betrayed the Welsh princes. No doubt

9:40

about it. They absolutely did. They

9:42

back up with the first. They get rewarded for

9:44

it.

9:45

Obviously, Eber I,

9:46

being Eber I, says I'm going

9:48

to plant my own mates in all the positions

9:51

of power, all the positions of authority, the sheriffs,

9:53

the justices, even

9:55

quite low level officials are English.

9:57

But of course, they don't want to go there. So the who.

9:59

their deputies. Their deputies are these proto-tudors

10:02

and their mates, their relatives, their hangars on.

10:05

They are the people doing the hard work. They're big

10:07

winners.

10:07

Are they sort of that irritating

10:10

level of middle management that you have to

10:12

work with? You know, when you have a Saturday job

10:15

and then the people who are absolutely drunk on the power

10:17

that they get to do the rotor one week, is that what

10:19

the tutors are? Absolutely. Okay.

10:22

I have to say, having a sort of passing

10:25

relationship with our local council on Anglesey,

10:27

how much has changed? I feel like

10:29

their descendants are still doing okay

10:31

around here. Okay.

10:34

So the early proto-not-quite-tudors

10:36

have turned against their Welsh forefathers

10:39

and they've jumped ship and gone, you know what? Actually, the cushy life

10:42

is working for the English king. So Kiri,

10:44

I'm very sorry if we've angered you already with our

10:47

anti-patriotic dragging

10:49

you into the murky waters

10:51

of the 13th century.

10:53

Do you know what though? So my surname is Pritchard,

10:55

which is the Welsh side, and the McLean, which is my mother's

10:58

side. And

10:58

when I went to the McLean castle on the Isle

11:01

of Mull, the whole history of

11:03

the McLean's is constantly swapping

11:05

sides to just act in their

11:08

own interest. So I think between the Welsh side

11:10

and the Scottish side, I'm the most

11:12

disloyal opportunistic. Genetically,

11:15

it's all there for me. So expect

11:17

to see another podcast exclusively about

11:19

the tutors and World War II.

11:21

Okay,

11:24

so they're not yet tutors, keeping

11:27

power between them for several generations. And

11:29

we get a particular pair of brothers, Huel

11:32

Abgoronri and Tudor Abgoronri.

11:35

Adam, immediately, the name Tudor shows up

11:37

there. I'm very happy, but it's his first name, which

11:39

is slightly confusing, not his surname. So

11:41

Huel and Tudor, they're

11:44

brothers, but they're also

11:45

pretty ruthless, aren't they? These

11:48

people in the 14th century, it doesn't matter where you are,

11:50

actually anywhere in Europe, the people in power are

11:52

bastards. They are not nice

11:55

people.

11:55

What does that feel like? I can't

11:57

possibly imagine. These two.

12:00

by two positions of power. So Tidde up gone we is

12:03

secular side and Huel his brother is

12:05

a cleric but they're clearly figures thieves

12:07

they clearly work together and between

12:09

them they occupy all the leaves of power

12:12

they know where all the money is and they can

12:14

do pretty much what they like. Yes

12:16

we've got Huel up gone and chewed

12:18

her up one week but actually apparently it's Tidde and

12:21

so church and state one's a cleric one's a sort

12:23

of local you know politician and

12:25

then Tidde marries really well you said

12:27

to the sister of Owain Glendour. No

12:29

it's

12:29

it I got that wrong it's the aunt of Owain Glendour.

12:32

The aunt of Owain Glendour okay. They're all called

12:34

Tidde and Garonwie and there's

12:36

multiple generations and I get very

12:38

confused happily this

12:40

happened at the time so I feel guilty

12:43

about that. Did she know which one she'd married maybe

12:45

she was confused.

12:46

We've all used that excuse around here

12:48

everyone everyone's called Christo

12:50

Dowie and I'm like I didn't know which Dowie it was

12:52

whoops.

12:53

Okay

12:55

so Tidde has married into the family of

12:57

Owain Glendour the great leader of Welsh independence

13:00

we did a podcast on him if listeners want to check it out he's

13:02

a big deal he's fighting back against the English but

13:05

Kiri I want to focus on these two brothers Huel

13:07

and Tidde what do you think they're getting

13:09

up to they've got plans afoot.

13:12

Two brothers in North Wales drunk on

13:14

power there's never not a power grab whether

13:16

that's like in the nightclub

13:18

you know outside the kebab shop I can just

13:21

see I can feel it brewing yeah

13:23

and if there's a how well involved and absolutely.

13:26

Well I think power grab is one way of putting it

13:28

the other way of putting it is just outright murder.

13:30

Yeah pretty much in 1345 on February the

13:32

14th yes Valentine's Day

13:36

Henry Schaldeford the attorney

13:38

of the Chamberlain of North Wales was

13:41

killed on his way from Denby to Glavin

13:44

and there's some doubt about what happened

13:46

he had a bodyguard of four people

13:48

they seems to be attacked and the attacks

13:51

took place near guesswork well near Huel's

13:53

house and the people leading

13:55

the gang of assassins that's what they

13:57

were were led by Tidde.

13:59

This happens on the road towards Carnarvon.

14:02

And the numbers of people involved, it's 60

14:04

or 80, somehow, two of the bodyguards

14:07

escape. And this is how we know what happened. Other

14:09

versions say the murder took place at Quel's house after

14:12

dinner. Oh, right. So that kebab shop

14:14

analogy is not entirely misplaced.

14:17

I'd have gone for after eight mints, but absolutely

14:19

fine if you want to do a murder. So

14:22

they had their own Savalte Sia massacre. That's the

14:24

thing. Oh, yeah. Obviously, the ink's going

14:26

to absolute panic, but well, I don't

14:28

think they're too hard touchable.

14:29

They can't actually be got rid of. So

14:31

they're just in prison for a bit. Highlands have been launched

14:33

in Cornwall, and Tiddeir heads are imprisoned

14:36

in Chester, and the consequences are formidable.

14:38

A brief period in prison, they kept the lands, they kept the money,

14:41

and we just pretend it didn't happen. We've got

14:43

a St. Valentine's Day massacre involving a sort of

14:45

local Welsh mafia, and they get away

14:47

with it,

14:48

which means presumably there's a sort of Welsh Jack

14:50

Lemmon and Tony Curtis trying to run away disguised

14:52

as female jazz musicians. That's

14:55

how I'm seeing this story. That's a somewhat

14:57

like it hot joke for people who haven't seen the movie. Go

14:59

check it out, it's an absolute masterpiece. Anyway, moving

15:01

on. So our brothers are, they're bumping

15:03

off an Englishman, which sounds like there's

15:05

a changing dynamic, and obviously, O'Anglin

15:08

Dour is going really well from initially his push for

15:10

independence, but then it goes kind

15:12

of wrong, and O'Wayne's got three

15:14

cousins, Meredith, Rhys

15:16

and Willem. They are the sons of Tiddeir,

15:18

and they're joining the uprising.

15:20

They're ganging up with O'Anglin

15:22

Dour against the English. They

15:24

take Conway Castle in 1401. How

15:27

do they do it, Kiri? It's an incredible plan. Oh,

15:30

interesting. I love Conway Castle. It's where I,

15:32

in the church hall opposite is where me and my girls

15:34

do a dance class once a week. How

15:36

did they take Conway? Did

15:39

they go there on a very weird day that

15:41

occurs every year? Did they go there on pirate day where

15:43

all the locals dressed as pirates? Oh, lovely. And

15:46

everyone's defenses are down because everyone's just

15:48

in a feel-good spirit. Is that what happened?

15:50

It's not far

15:52

off, actually. They went on Good Friday

15:54

when everyone was in church, and they just wandered in and

15:56

went, yep,

15:57

we'll have it now. Wow.

16:00

This is full sitcom stuff isn't it? It's

16:03

like a plot for Ammonie Fools and Horses. These

16:06

are Welshmen doing repairs on the English Castle.

16:09

That is deemed to be completely normal and completely plausible.

16:11

Right, yeah. In the middle of a rebellion. Exactly

16:14

that. In the middle of a war for Welsh independence

16:17

and Welshmen shopping and go hello we're here to fix

16:19

the fridge or whatever.

16:19

It's nearly the start of a very low budget pornography

16:22

film. You know that's

16:25

watching Jean-Léonie's mending? Wow

16:27

that's a big wrench.

16:29

There's an uprising joke in there but I'm not

16:31

gonna make it. Hey, okay. Obviously

16:34

things start out really well for Oengling Dour and then

16:37

they go horribly wrong, the whole thing falls apart,

16:39

the uprising. And these three Tudor

16:41

cousins, Meredith, Gwillam and Rhys,

16:44

did

16:44

they return to their kind of cushy lives or

16:47

did they get punished properly this time Adam?

16:49

Well only one of them survived so yeah. Right, okay.

16:51

Maureen Meredith is the only one that actually lives past the

16:54

end of the rebellion.

16:55

Rhys and Gwillam lose everything.

16:56

And then get executed. But distant

16:58

cousins get their laughs. Oh

17:01

okay. It sort of stays in the family

17:03

because again they switch sides. So

17:05

it's like cousin Greg in succession. He's sort of this

17:07

weirdo outsider who suddenly gets all this

17:09

power and all this influence. They decide to settle down

17:11

to a quiet life but Meredith survives but

17:14

he's got nothing. So they lose everything and

17:16

he has a son Meredith. He's got a son.

17:18

He's called

17:20

Owen up Meredith up Tiddia.

17:22

Again there's a slight Tudor Tiddia kind

17:25

of name in there so I'm going to call them a proto-Tudor

17:27

but we'll call him Owen Tudor for short.

17:30

And his father has lost everything as

17:32

you've said so you know he's having to start from square

17:35

one. He's back to the beginnings again. So

17:37

he used to become a mid-level servant. He

17:39

works for an English knight called Sir Walter Hungerford.

17:41

I

17:42

mean that's if you're going to name an English knight that's

17:44

what you're calling him isn't it? Hello Sir

17:47

Walter Hungerford here. Is that my BMW?

17:49

It is yeah thank you. So

17:51

Owen is down on his luck but he's young

17:54

and he's hot Kiri. So how do you think

17:56

he scrambles up the social ladder? He's

17:58

going to marry well right? young and sexy

18:01

because sure that's what I've done. I've

18:05

used my looks and slapped my way to the top.

18:08

And also because he does have a sense of dynasty,

18:11

right? The family has history and will be well known

18:13

so that has social currency at

18:15

least.

18:15

I mean you're spot on. I mean in terms of landing

18:18

an impressive girlfriend, do you want to guess who

18:21

she is? I mean she's pretty impressive. Is

18:23

it Shirley Bassey? It is Shirley Bassey, yeah.

18:27

No, I mean it's even more glamorous

18:29

than Shirley Bassey if you can imagine it. It's the Queen

18:31

of England. What? Yeah.

18:36

The Dowager Queen of England, the mother of

18:38

the king. How is this mid-level

18:41

servant

18:42

the son of a Welsh rebel, how has he

18:44

scored that level of, she's

18:46

the Queen of England? This is

18:49

so Mills and Boone, it's unbelievable.

18:52

The powerful

18:54

queen and the stable boy, it's such

18:57

a sexy tale.

18:58

Yeah, we're back to our porn again, aren't we? Yeah,

19:01

yeah, yeah. Adam, this is Catherine

19:04

of Valois. She's

19:05

French, she's the imported

19:07

queen who married Henry the Fifth,

19:09

like the great Henry the Fifth

19:11

and has given birth to Henry the Sixth who is now the reigning

19:13

king. How has this happened? The really embarrassing

19:16

thing as a historian to say is we don't really know

19:19

because having the Fifth dies in 1422,

19:21

having agreed with Charles

19:24

the Sixth basically through military force, winning

19:26

Aswingu was part of that of course, and

19:28

marrying his daughter Catherine is

19:31

the other part. The thing that

19:33

should have happened had Henry lived, had

19:35

he not got dysentery and

19:37

shot himself to death, was he

19:39

would have been the next king of France. Of course

19:41

when Henry dies, this all gets a bit difficult because

19:43

there are rival French princes

19:46

wanting to do France as an independent country.

19:48

You've got a queen, she's the mother of the king you've got

19:50

who is what,

19:51

he's nine months old. Yeah, he's a baby. Henry

19:54

the Sixth is a natural baby. He's

19:56

literally a Napist. So the big

19:58

problem with having the Sixth early reign is what

19:59

not actually running anything, is he? Because

20:02

he can't control his own bladder. And of course, the

20:05

mother is French, which presents problems

20:07

if there's still a war going on with the French.

20:10

So what happens is she's sort of minding her own business,

20:13

raising her son,

20:14

and supposedly, somehow

20:17

about this time she meets Owen

20:20

at Merit at Tadeer, as he then was.

20:22

It becomes Owen Tadeer later because it seems

20:25

to write Owen Tadeer in the paperwork. But

20:27

we don't

20:28

quite know how they meet.

20:30

There's lots of stories. First of occurring story

20:33

of a Welshman falling into a lap of the Queen whilst

20:35

dancing in a pub. The story

20:37

is generally based at the pub in Wales, which is completely implausible.

20:40

It's going to be anyway, it's going to be in the Thames

20:42

Valley somewhere. Slough, maidenhead, something

20:44

like that. Yes.

20:46

Be still my beating heart. It's

20:49

a popular story because Chronically, William Bewuster

20:51

says at the point when Owen was about to be

20:53

beheaded after losing a battle, he apparently said

20:55

that his head was the same head that once been the

20:57

lap of a Queen. Oh,

20:59

his last words go. That's quite special. It's pretty good,

21:01

isn't it? It's definitely good. It's better than, please, not

21:04

the face. So

21:08

that's one story. The other story is

21:11

also kind of charming. I

21:13

mean, Kiri, as a romance novelist, what

21:16

other story would you conjure up, the meet cute

21:18

between the stable boy or actually

21:20

he's in charge of her wardrobe, we think, and

21:23

the Dowager Queen of England?

21:24

Well, do you know what? If it's anything like the love stories

21:26

I know where an English person and

21:29

a North Wales person fall in love, is she's

21:31

come to visit her caravan for a holiday.

21:34

And then at the bar on the campsite,

21:36

eyes meet, there's a

21:38

karaoke, they go and sing, and

21:41

then I go and spoil it all by saying something. She goes, I love

21:43

you. And then that's it. It's

21:45

a long lasting sort of summer relationship

21:48

that happens to change the course of history

21:50

in the UK. Is that right?

21:51

Oh, I love that story. If only that were

21:53

true. The

21:55

story we've got, yeah, I mean, we've got the falling

21:58

in the lap story, which is good, which is a nice one.

21:59

because that's sort of drunkenly stumbling in a pub. Great,

22:02

love it. Probably in Slough. But the other one

22:04

is, it's quite specific Adam, it involves a cheek

22:06

injury. What? Yes, yeah.

22:08

And touch with the sort of pride and prejudice Colin first this

22:11

world as well, which is, you know, Queen

22:13

Catherine saw a young Welshman bathing and

22:15

arranged to meet him. This guy is one of her mates.

22:18

So the couple met and kissed and she got a slight, I'm

22:21

not sure how you got an injury on your cheek kissing. I just

22:23

don't, don't expect you to. I mean kissing.

22:25

But later on, Owen

22:28

saw the Queen of a wound on her cheek and realised who's

22:30

that Welshman had been snogging actually

22:32

was.

22:33

Wow. So it's like a glass

22:35

slipper. Yeah. But it's an open wound

22:37

on the face. Yes, yes. Yes,

22:40

Cinderella, but with like weird facial

22:42

injuries somehow. I mean, you

22:45

know, maybe I'm not brilliant at kissing, but I've never injured,

22:47

I've never scratched anyone's face while kissing them. You're

22:49

not doing it right, mate. You're not doing

22:51

it right. Apologies to my wife. But

22:54

so Catherine and Owen are getting on.

22:56

And in fact, you know, I called Catherine the Dowager

22:59

Queen, which makes a sound like a sort of down to nappy

23:01

character, like Maggie Smith

23:03

or something. She's 28. Like

23:05

she is gorgeous. And I mean, she's

23:08

basically a quilf, you know, a queen I'd

23:10

like to furnish. Why

23:12

are you laughing? Furnish is the verb

23:15

because he works in the wardrobe. But like she's

23:17

gorgeous. She's young, she's glamorous. She's got a, you know,

23:19

a one year old, but they're roughly, they're

23:22

both in their twenties. It's, you know, classic romance. But

23:24

what's quite surprising, Adam, is that this is

23:27

not a sort of summer holiday romance in a caravan,

23:29

as curious as I'm told. This

23:31

ends up with like a marriage. The King

23:33

of England is a child, so he can't say anything about

23:35

it. But everyone

23:36

else, they must be furious about this. So

23:38

is it a secret marriage? The marriage of the

23:40

Dowager Queen is a commodity. Yeah. She's

23:43

got land, she's got state, she's got money,

23:45

she's got diplomatic cachet, and arrangements

23:48

have been made, supposedly

23:50

to have been engaged with Eben Beaufort, who

23:53

is one of the children

23:55

of the bastard children of Edward

23:57

III. So there's a royal connection there. The Beaufort family

23:59

will come back.

23:59

them late when there was an Act of Parliament

24:02

banning a Queen's marriage about the King's permission. Obviously

24:04

King is like two. We just

24:07

don't know what happened

24:09

but we do know a marriage took place.

24:11

Absolutely clear about that and we know it was legitimate.

24:14

It was never challenged but it was for fairly

24:16

obvious reasons secret but it

24:19

must have been discovered at the point that

24:21

she'd had children. Yeah I

24:23

mean you said like secret for a bit but

24:26

then they end up with kids. Yeah. I mean

24:28

you can't just stuff them in a cupboard and hope no one

24:30

notices. Like you know the

24:32

Queen of France that you know the Dowager Queen of England

24:34

has had children with another man who is a sort

24:36

of mid-level Welsh servant the son of a Welsh

24:39

rebel. This story is absolutely

24:41

bonkers and the sons I

24:43

mean we know three sons and a daughter but the daughter

24:45

doesn't have a name that we're all over because you know because girls

24:48

don't count Kiri. Mm-hmm

24:50

I know it well. So what

24:51

are the sons Adam? The eldest is Edmond.

24:54

It's a very English name you know. A

24:56

former patriot state of England. The next

24:58

oldest is Jasper

24:59

and the third is Owen.

25:02

Owen gets packed off to Westminster Abbey to

25:04

become a monk but

25:05

the whole story of the Tudors

25:08

is about dynastic marriages. Yeah. The

25:10

women have the power, the women have the authority, women have

25:12

the status because let's face it you know you're

25:15

dealing with someone who's got you know a

25:17

long

25:18

lineage in a Welsh context. What does

25:20

that count for anything?

25:22

And it's all about marrying well. It's

25:25

so interesting because I had lazily

25:27

and in quite a sexist way assumed that it

25:29

was only women who were marrying

25:31

well to advance their circumstances because I just assumed

25:34

that women wouldn't have any power so

25:36

they were the ones who would need to sort of push

25:38

their families, increase the dynasty

25:40

and increase the power. So it's really interesting

25:42

to me that a Welsh lad has done good

25:45

like that and married for

25:47

power. I've got a lot of respect for him.

25:48

Let's not forget she's all so hot, she's

25:50

a quilf. She's all so hot. Let's

25:53

not diminish the fact that she's you know in her late

25:55

20s and absolutely got nothing else to do. She's

25:57

just you know walking around Winter Castle going yeah!

25:59

You know, someone else is raising my son

26:02

probably, he's probably with his tutor. I, you know, I've

26:04

got my tutors, my tutors are free, I can hang

26:06

out with a Welshman. I can go to Zumba class

26:08

on a Wednesday, I don't know. So

26:11

Edmund and Jasper Tudor. Well,

26:14

they're not called Tudor, that's the thing. I

26:16

mean, they're named after, I mean,

26:18

they're generally named after where they're born. So we

26:20

call them Tudors, we call them Edmund and

26:22

Jasper Tudor. They will become big names

26:25

in the history books, but they're not quite Tudors

26:27

yet. But they are now the half brothers of the King

26:29

of England.

26:29

These brothers, Edmund and Jasper, are

26:32

they getting the top level fantastic

26:34

education because they're the rightful sons

26:37

of the Dowager Queen? Or are they a bit

26:39

of an awkward embarrassment and actually they're just sort of sent

26:41

to, you know, Sunday school to learn, you know, one

26:43

to 10 and that's it? Yeah, well, a

26:45

bit of both actually, because you've

26:48

got the whole problem of, we don't really

26:50

want to explain how that happened and

26:52

that's awkward. So

26:55

they do the sort of pragmatic thing, which is to say,

26:57

well, we're going to put them in the care of the nuns of Barking Abbey.

27:00

Handy for London, keep an eye on them. Barking

27:02

is an important royal foundation, really old royal foundation,

27:05

and

27:05

it's very wealthy so they can afford,

27:08

the nuns can afford to keep them. They give them an education,

27:10

the crown's paying, they're provided with an education,

27:12

they provide, they don't have any land and they don't have

27:14

any status.

27:15

But by 1452, they

27:17

are adult enough that they need to do something

27:19

with them. You can't just let them sort of swan around forever.

27:23

So what Harry does, he nobles them. He

27:25

makes Jasper Earl of Pembroke

27:27

and Edmund becomes Earl of Richmond. Earl

27:29

of Pembroke and Earl of Richmond, I mean, to

27:31

be an Earl is incredibly powerful. Duke

27:34

is probably the only thing that's arriving in

27:36

terms of power. So these two

27:38

20-somethings have been handed land,

27:40

status, armies, they can raise

27:42

taxes on their lands and they're in their

27:45

20s, they're a fighting age and suddenly

27:47

they're going to need them because in the

27:50

1450s, mid-1450s, we get a war breaking out,

27:52

Kiri. It's a pretty famous dynastic

27:54

war. Do you know which one it is?

27:56

No. I mean, I'll know

27:58

it when you say it. Right

28:00

now, no idea. There's

28:02

a brand of family sharing chocolates

28:05

that you could go to as your reference

28:07

point. Oh, right, the

28:09

War of Quality Street. Is it roses?

28:13

It

28:13

is the Wars of the Roses, yeah, absolutely.

28:16

In 1455 we get the Wars of the Roses. Game of

28:18

Thrones is based on the Wars of the Roses. That is your

28:20

go-to reference point. It is a 30-year

28:23

civil war. It is brutal. And

28:26

it's a struggle between two houses. The House of

28:28

Lancaster, that's sort of where the Tudors

28:31

are going to be based, and then the House of York,

28:33

which is where

28:34

you'll get your rich at the third. And

28:36

this is a time not just of battles and

28:38

bloodshed and wars, but also, as

28:40

Kiri said, advantageous marriages,

28:42

Adam. So we have our two earls,

28:45

our two brothers, and they're going to marry

28:47

well as well. So the

28:49

marriage is important because the whole business

28:52

of the claim Henry Tudor, so

28:54

we're going to have to call him, even though he didn't call himself

28:56

at that at the time, was to pursue,

28:59

was based on who his mum was.

29:01

And his mum is Margaret Beaufort, and

29:04

she was married to Edmund Tudor, Earl

29:06

of Richmond, the older brother, in 1455. She

29:09

was only nine at the time. And she'd

29:11

already been married once to the son of

29:13

the Marquess of Suffolk. Marquess of Suffolk gets

29:15

murdered in 1450 and thus leaves

29:18

his son without many prospects. So a null in the

29:20

marriage is quite easy to do. Yeah,

29:21

I mean, Kiri, your head's in your hands. I'm so sorry.

29:24

This is, you know. So

29:26

her second marriage to the person

29:28

she'd been granted in Wardship to... I mean,

29:30

Wardship's like a sort of back-up parent,

29:33

right? I mean, that's... Yeah, it's another

29:35

way of getting them income. So she's granted in Wardship

29:37

with all her lands, all her estates, and

29:39

the Beaufort's, don't forget, are the bastard

29:42

descendants of Edward III and one

29:44

of his mistresses. Just let Danny die.

29:46

So Beaufort's have gone

29:49

through a similar journey to what the Tudors are going through. But

29:51

they were a generation earlier, so they've become established. They've got

29:53

lots of land, lots of money, lots of estates.

29:56

Her second marriage is to Edmund Tudor.

29:58

wars

30:00

going on, the War of the Roses. So they're on the

30:02

Red Rose side, the Lancastrian

30:04

side. And I hadn't

30:07

realised that I thought wars are just on

30:09

the battlefield. So is there also a

30:11

parallel sort of strategy

30:13

where you're also sort

30:14

of getting your ducks in a row in terms of the political

30:17

stuff of marrying well? And that's why you've got

30:19

a nine-year-old being symbolically married

30:21

because it's just a way of accruing

30:23

power.

30:23

Absolutely. But yeah, well, it's actually 12.

30:26

She's actually married. I've been 12

30:28

and having a divorce under your belt. Just

30:30

like being a couple of marriages deep. It's

30:33

quite full on.

30:34

But the point of familial

30:36

connection is really important. The Yorkists

30:38

marry between themselves. The Lancastrians marry

30:40

between themselves. Those political groupings

30:43

are confirmed by social connection. It

30:45

makes it much harder to switch sides than anything else.

30:48

And Paul Margaret is a victim in this.

30:50

She becomes an extraordinary woman. In

30:53

her maturity, she sort of incredibly bosses it. But

30:55

at this point, she's 12 years old and

30:57

Edmund is a selfish

31:00

and kind

31:01

of cruel, really, in what he's going to do here. He

31:04

forces her into a betrothal at the age of nine,

31:06

which is horribly young. He then marries

31:08

her at 12, which is young by medieval standards,

31:11

too young even by medieval standards. And

31:13

then she is forced to give

31:16

birth at the age of 13. In fact,

31:18

by that point, he has already died.

31:20

He dies while she is pregnant. So she

31:22

is widowed and a mother by the age of 13, which

31:25

is horrifically young. And the

31:27

damage it does to her body is horrible and lifelong

31:30

and she'll never have children again. But she does

31:32

survive and Margaret Beaufort will become

31:34

incredibly powerful, important

31:36

politician later in the story. But

31:38

it's a really sad bit of history here, Kerry. So

31:41

this poor young girl has to go

31:43

through all of that alone pretty much. But the

31:45

child will become the first tutor king. So

31:47

when Edmund dies, what happens

31:50

to Margaret? She's alone in South Wales

31:52

initially,

31:53

and then she gets married again. So

31:56

she's been divorced once widowed once,

31:58

gets married again.

31:59

Henry Stafford, who is again

32:02

on the Lancastrian side, and

32:05

her son is initially placed in the care of Jasper.

32:07

This begins a long, lifelong connection

32:09

between Henry and Jasper.

32:11

So Uncle Jasper, right? Uncle Jasper,

32:13

yeah. But as Henry grows up, she

32:15

stays in contact with

32:17

her son through letters. But in the meantime,

32:19

Henry VI regime is falling apart.

32:22

So he's the Lancastrian king, and he suffers from

32:24

severe mental health problems, and

32:26

can't actually rule in person. This is one of

32:28

the reasons the Wars of Roses happen.

32:30

So you get the York aside, coming

32:32

to try and claim the throne

32:34

too. They're called York because the primary

32:37

claim is Richard Duke of York.

32:39

He wins a bloody battle at Toden

32:41

in Yorkshire in 1461. And another one at Mortam's Cross,

32:46

after which Ointudr, who's still about,

32:48

we forgot about him, but he's captured and

32:50

he's beheaded. And of course, he's therefore

32:53

the deposed king's stepdad, which

32:55

is a bit weird. So the stepdad

32:58

of the king, the guy who'd married the queen of

33:00

France, or the daughter of the king of France, he's been

33:02

executed after a battle. So we're now

33:04

into proper, like violent bumping

33:06

off your rival's territory, Kiri. So

33:09

Owen is

33:09

gone, he's dead. But Jasper

33:11

escapes. So he's safe. Jasper

33:13

heads off, ends up in exile

33:15

in France, and spends the next 20

33:18

years of his life basically coming, oh, there's a sort

33:20

of asian preocator. He comes in, he makes raids,

33:22

he's usually in Wales, makes a nuisance to himself,

33:24

it all goes wrong and he runs away. And this

33:26

happens two or three times. Henry,

33:29

meanwhile, is sent off

33:32

to be raised by one of Edward the Fourth, who's

33:34

the Yorkist king, Edward the Fourth's

33:36

most important battalion is also Welshman, William

33:39

Lord Herbert. And Herbert's based in

33:41

Raglan, in south east Wales, in Monmouthshire.

33:45

And Herbert's interesting because he

33:47

is another Welshman on the make. He's another

33:50

person who's trying to achieve status and power

33:52

and authority through his own efforts. You

33:54

know, he'd fought in the wars in France, he'd

33:57

basically run, he'd like the Tudors, the

34:00

to the north Wales he came to dominate

34:02

safe and southeast Wales he ran all the

34:04

martial or chips all those little bits of the on

34:06

the borders he pocketed

34:08

off the money and find

34:11

his feet yep there's a pattern here one of the poets

34:13

at writing

34:15

time calls him yellow went the devil

34:17

of Gwent which

34:19

is so if they don't like you they have to at least say

34:22

that you've got power

34:22

yeah you still get a badass nickname which is all

34:25

that matters yeah it's pretty cool actually yeah

34:27

the devil of Gwent is a great name yeah so Henry

34:30

spends the next 10 years of his life in the

34:32

care of William Herbert Herbert ends up

34:34

dead because he finished in the losing

34:36

side of a battle in 1469 and then shortly afterwards

34:41

ever the fourth is deposed him in the sixth comes

34:43

back from exile

34:45

briefly and Henry's put again

34:47

in the care of Jasper it's come

34:49

full circle it's come full circle so

34:52

Henry six is back on the throne Edward the fourth

34:54

has been booted off the throne Jasper has

34:56

returned from his foreign exile uncle

34:58

Jasper I mean I want to ask Kiri I

35:00

mean apart from Hollywood vampires and

35:03

Englishmen who wear red trousers have you ever met a Jasper

35:05

have you ever encountered a Jasper it's quite a rare

35:07

name it's a good name

35:08

it's an amazing name but

35:11

yeah no I haven't do you know what despite

35:13

the fact that I'm partially privately educated yet

35:15

to meet a Jasmine I really thought it'd be in my wheelhouse

35:18

yeah yeah and weren't many jasmas in

35:20

my Welsh primary school as it goes

35:22

well there weren't many

35:23

just in the 15th century item it's a really

35:25

rare name I mean he's kind of flying

35:27

the flag for jasmas there's loads of Owens

35:30

yeah you can't confuse Jasper anybody else

35:31

which is great because it is incredibly confusing because

35:34

everyone has the same name so Jasper is

35:36

about the only thing I can hang on to exactly

35:39

I'm glad it's not just me just clinging to this Jasper

35:41

like the one Jasper in the script okay good yeah

35:44

I mean it is an unusual name but where does it come

35:46

from well

35:47

it's French probably isn't the J

35:49

sound in Welsh no Kerry it's

35:51

it's Jasper s I

35:54

a s b a r

35:55

oh that's quite nice and

35:58

it's called the year of Pembrokal the King's

36:00

uterine brother he's sometimes called. The

36:02

King's uterine brother! Oh wow! That's

36:05

so visceral!

36:08

That's like King's brother from another mother

36:10

or same mother. No, same mother, it's the same mother. Same

36:12

uterus. Okay, that's a... Same uterine,

36:15

come on! What would be

36:17

your medieval epithet, Kiri? We've had

36:19

the devil of Gwent and we've had a uterine brother. What's

36:22

your medieval? How would you be

36:24

labelled by your enemies or friends?

36:26

Devil of the uterine, I think. My

36:30

biology and my extreme temperament

36:32

coming together into one nickname. I

36:35

mean, I can only think of you as... Because you're a McLean, I

36:38

only think of you as a sort of die-hard hero. I

36:40

imagine you in a vest just kicking ass

36:42

with a machine gun

36:43

and a Santa hat. I'm forever fighting

36:45

terrorists, yes.

36:47

All right, so Jasper is very powerful

36:49

now. He's returned to power because Edward

36:52

IV is booted off the throne and the Lancastrians

36:54

are back in power. Briefly, that's the key

36:56

thing. Very briefly, spoiler

36:58

alert, Edward IV gets back into power,

37:00

so you get your swapping of the kings back and forth. And

37:03

Jasper is renowned for his ability to run away,

37:06

which is a tremendous skill to have. We've

37:08

already heard about him running away at Mortimer's Cross in 1461, where

37:10

Owen has been caught and

37:12

executed. But he's got other excellent

37:15

escapes in his CV. What

37:17

else has

37:17

he done, Adam?

37:18

In 1468, so seven years later, he comes back

37:20

with a fishing expedition, if you like. The

37:23

king of France props him up with, I think, three ships

37:25

and 50 men.

37:26

He lands in North Wales, somewhere in Barmouth,

37:29

probably, and then spends the next couple

37:31

of months rampaging around North Wales. Quite

37:34

hard to rampage with three ships and 50 guys, though, isn't

37:36

it? It's basically a stag do. It's

37:38

not really rampaging. Well,

37:40

yeah. But of course, bear

37:42

in mind, he was a lot of pembroke.

37:44

He did have Welsh land. He had lots of Welsh connections.

37:47

So basically, he wrote round his mates.

37:48

So he managed to raise a few thousand men.

37:50

They went on the rampage in

37:53

summer of 1468. Bear in mind, there is also

37:55

a Lancastrian stronghold in North Wales at the time.

37:57

The Karach Castle is held fourth.

38:00

Lancashtrians. So

38:01

in 1468, over the fourth decide

38:03

he's had enough of this Lancashtrian

38:06

outpost and at the same time apparently completely

38:08

unconnected Jasper rocks up and has

38:10

a go in the face of an enormous Royal

38:12

Army led by William Herbert

38:14

which we're probably Henry tagging

38:17

along that's the weird thing Herbert has probably

38:19

got Henry with it you know age 10 or

38:21

whatever. Oh wow, work experience okay

38:24

yeah. Jasper rocks up and spends

38:26

his time running away from William Herbert and William Herbert's army

38:29

in the meantime Burns Denby gets to Denby and

38:31

says I will try to take the castle

38:33

it's impossible Denby is enormous it's

38:35

on a really great lump of rock

38:37

so does the easy thing Burns the town

38:39

holds a few mock trials in the name of

38:42

Henry the sixth and then runs

38:44

away disguised a peasant back

38:46

to France where he remains for

38:48

the next 15 years.

38:50

Wow okay so it's

38:52

not gone that well and Jasper is is

38:54

he got his eye on the English throne or is

38:56

he sort of doing it on behalf of his nephew?

38:58

It seems to be very much on behalf of his nephew. How

39:00

old's the nephew at this time then? 10, 11? Yeah.

39:03

If you have a nephew and and they're a 10 year old and

39:05

they're like I want to be king don't go and fight battles

39:08

for them that's the kind of obnoxious behavior

39:10

as an uncle you need to bring into line

39:12

and not encourage.

39:13

They need a Saturday

39:15

job they need to learn how to earn their own money

39:17

how to do the washing up and hoovering.

39:20

So we've got Jasper who's sort of

39:22

skilled at running away we've heard about you know he runs

39:24

away from Pembroke Castle in 1471 he's disguised as a peasant

39:28

at one point he's pretty light

39:30

on his feet is a nice way of putting it and

39:33

he's called Jasper so he wears red trousers at least in my

39:35

own words but again it all goes wrong

39:37

for him we get Edward IV back on the throne

39:39

which means Jasper has to leg it again and he's

39:41

not legging it to France he legs it to Brittany

39:44

Brittany is independent of France Kiri

39:46

it's a separate duchy and

39:49

Jasper brings Henry with him right he

39:51

brings his nephew with him what's it like

39:53

for them when they get there is it like you know welcome

39:55

to Brittany your new home or is it like oh

39:58

god all right you can stay in the barn

39:59

It's somewhere in the middle because of course

40:02

for the Dukes of Brittany this is a politically

40:04

difficult place for him to be.

40:06

Because you're stuck between the King of

40:08

France anyway and you've

40:11

got the trouble going on in England and we don't really

40:13

want to get involved if it's all possible because

40:15

that puts us in a pencil point between two powers so

40:18

you could actually do a series out. I mean Henry's put

40:20

in a tower. I mean, Kiri, imagine a kind of medieval...

40:22

Imagine like Shrek and a princess in

40:24

a tower. He's basically put in one of those, like

40:26

a sort of large, tall, thin building

40:29

and he's like, you stay there. And he's there for 14 years,

40:31

Kiri.

40:32

Oh my gosh. That's not going

40:34

to... Especially you've got a spoiled 18

40:37

year old who'd been told that he absolutely should have

40:39

ambitions for the throne. I don't think that's going to

40:41

chill him out, is it?

40:45

No. He's spending all his youth kind of

40:47

going, will I ever be king? Will I ever get back

40:49

to Wales, back to England? It's like staying

40:51

in an Airbnb beyond, you know, it's nice for a

40:53

week for a couple of weeks. It's glamorous. And then you're

40:55

like, oh God, I've seen the local shop

40:57

enough times. So we

41:00

have this important moment really, 1483, Francis, Duke of

41:04

Brittany, he unfortunately, his health deteriorates,

41:07

but it now is forcing people's hands.

41:09

And meanwhile in England, Edward IV dies.

41:12

The King of England is dead. So

41:14

the time

41:15

for action is now, Kiri. It's 1483, where

41:17

it's all kicking off and we get into

41:20

Richard III territory. What do you know of Richard III, Kiri?

41:23

Just that his name is... Wait, is

41:25

he the one who's found in the car park? Yeah.

41:28

Okay. So he was found

41:30

in a Tesco in Leicester. And

41:34

did he have a problem with his back as

41:36

well?

41:36

Yes. I mean, Shakespeare makes him

41:38

a hunchback, but we obviously know that it's

41:40

more scoliosis because they found his body.

41:43

But he steals power

41:45

according to Shakespeare. He's got these nephews,

41:48

the princes in the tower, and then they

41:50

suddenly vanish

41:51

and disappear. And then suddenly there's

41:53

a king and it's the brother of Edward

41:55

IV, Richard III, Duke of Gloucester,

41:58

isn't it? I think. So he's...

41:59

sort of, some

42:02

would say usurper. I'm not going to touch this with the barge

42:04

pole because people who like Richard III get

42:06

very passionate in their emails. So I'm

42:09

going to stay well away from there. All I'm going to say is suddenly

42:11

Richard III is king and the princes in the tower have

42:13

vanished.

42:15

And Henry and Jasper are like,

42:18

right.

42:19

That's, this is it. This is the moment. Launch

42:21

the invasion fleet. And it goes

42:23

great, Kiri, apart from the fact it doesn't. They

42:26

sort of immediately,

42:27

they just, they hit bad weather. And

42:30

they have to go home again, back to their 14-year-old castle. So

42:33

Adam, is there a sort of sequel invasion? Yes.

42:36

And Richard III's reign is incredibly

42:39

unstable. It's subject to lots of different, several different rebellions.

42:41

Jacob Buckingham leads one. He doesn't

42:43

end well for him either. And in 1485,

42:45

two years later,

42:47

Jasper and Henry see, there's an opportunity there. Their

42:49

instability creates a chance. So

42:53

they get a fleet together. The few thousand hired French

42:55

mercenaries, the king of France, footing the bill,

42:57

certainly. Ooh, nice. No, no, no, no. And

42:59

unstable England is good for France. Yeah,

43:02

I was going to say, the king of France is stirring the pot, isn't he?

43:04

He's like, right, my mortal enemy can have

43:06

some soldiers and some ships. Off you go. Go

43:08

cause some havoc. Yeah, good. So they

43:10

land in Milford Haven, in Pembrokeshire, Jasper's

43:13

stomping around, so Jasper has contacts there,

43:15

of course. So this is

43:17

southwest Wales? A long way from

43:19

anywhere, of course, which is one of the problems with it. But

43:21

they're able to draw the wealth support and recruit

43:24

as they go around Wales. And

43:26

they pick up support from Henry's

43:28

mother, fourth husband. So

43:32

Margaret both puts onto her fourth husband and

43:35

he lends it. OK, classic. William

43:37

Stanley, who is part of Richard III's

43:39

court,

43:40

but also hedging his bets because he's

43:42

married to Henry's mother, which

43:44

is awkward. And they

43:46

march through

43:48

Wales, up through Shrewsbury, into the English

43:50

Midlands and pick up support

43:52

as they go along.

43:54

Richard, of course, is doing the same at the same

43:56

time from his supporters

43:58

and they meet just outside Leicester.

43:59

Bosworth Field on the 22nd

44:02

of August, 1485, final battle of the Wars of the Roses

44:04

and

44:05

it's,

44:06

well we all know who wins. Shakespeare. Yeah,

44:09

sorry, yeah. But

44:11

yeah, so Henry wins the battle. The invaders win

44:14

a short victory, but it's a product of decades

44:17

of work. Jasper probably did the landing

44:19

on the battlefield. Jasper had the experience in practice, but Henry

44:21

had, you know, Henry was a presence there. But

44:24

Jasper had done the hard work in surviving

44:26

and in riding his life. I don't know. But

44:28

it feels like giving him a lot of credit for a man who, I mean,

44:31

why instinct was about Jasper's has

44:33

failed upwards.

44:34

They're just sort of like running

44:36

away at the right bits, nearly going

44:39

to war, but they're being a storm and having to turn back.

44:41

I think he has been very lucky.

44:44

He has, but ultimately survivors

44:46

are the people who just, you know, they

44:48

just managed to live long enough

44:50

for everyone else to die. He's

44:53

just sort of waiting for the right moment and they get

44:55

lucky. I mean, it's a shock victory. I mean, Richard

44:57

III probably should not be dying in battle.

45:00

He should be sort of staying out of it and staying safe. But

45:02

he, you know, wades in and gets his head caved

45:04

in. And, you know, suddenly

45:07

Henry VII gets to pick the crown out

45:09

of the mud, pop it on his head and go, hello, I'm the new

45:12

king. You're welcome. And suddenly,

45:14

can you imagine what that must be like for Henry, Kiri?

45:16

He's been in a tower for 14 years on his

45:18

own. And then suddenly he's the king of England.

45:21

That is so, it's impressive. I know

45:23

from just 18 months in lockdown, I wasn't

45:25

ready to go out and do anything.

45:27

The

45:29

only thing I would have been ready for is an incredibly traumatic

45:32

and chaotic and bloody wall. Maybe that's why

45:34

I must have tricked that by just trying to ease myself

45:36

into doing the big shop. But I'm

45:40

interested in that because this war

45:42

of the roses has been so protracted and, you

45:44

know, it's probably with the lifespans and, you know, basically

45:46

a generation. Did actually Henry coming

45:48

in, did everyone sort of breathe out and go, right, well, this is

45:51

an element of stability here.

45:52

Well, this is where we get the mother. This

45:54

is where Margaret Beaufort comes to the fore. We

45:57

said that she'd had a very traumatic childhood, married

45:59

often.

45:59

you know, well, betrothed at nine. But

46:02

now the mums come forward

46:04

and go, right, let's sort this out. Classic mums.

46:07

It's been 30 years of war. Because

46:10

the mother of Henry, Margaret Beaufort,

46:13

she gets in contact with the mother of

46:16

the kind of Yorkist side. Elizabeth Woodville,

46:18

is that right? That's right. Yeah. And Elizabeth Woodville

46:21

is Eber the Fourth's widow. Our daughter is Elizabeth

46:23

York.

46:24

So Henry would marry Elizabeth's daughter,

46:26

Elizabeth. This unites the two rival

46:29

throne. It unites the Yorkist claim. The Yorkist

46:31

claim had that, incidentally, has its own Welsh history and connection

46:33

there, ultimately related to the Morethmers

46:36

to Clullenbore.

46:37

What did I say? We will claim absolutely

46:40

anyone as Welsh. And you better believe they

46:42

did. They played this

46:44

card really hard in the 1450s, 1460s.

46:47

Margaret Beaufort was

46:49

able to say, well, let's just resolve this problem

46:51

by marrying Henry to

46:53

Elizabeth.

46:54

Their children would unite the claims. And

46:57

that solves the problem of

46:58

who's going to succeed.

47:00

But it's a brilliant bit of branding, is it? Because we get the famous

47:03

Tudor rose, the red and the white petals,

47:05

which is the combination of the white rose of York,

47:08

the red rose of the Lancastrian family. In

47:10

comes Henry the Seventh with his Yorkist

47:13

wife, Elizabeth of York. And that's

47:15

it.

47:15

The wars of the roses, done, sorted. The mums

47:18

have nailed it. They've got in there and gone, all right, we

47:20

know how to solve this. We can't have any more of this

47:22

nonsense.

47:24

I've got this sort of low key theory anyway

47:26

that sometimes as

47:28

a woman, I've got a male partner, I'll ask

47:30

him to do like the washing up and he does such a bad job

47:33

that I know he's doing it. So I won't

47:35

ask him again. I'm sure that actually

47:37

women run the world for years and

47:40

then said, go on, boys, you do it. And the boys are doing such

47:42

a bad job of it that they won't get asked again.

47:44

And really the mums are going to come through any

47:46

second now and sort the world problems out. So the

47:49

students are a great example of that.

47:51

I believe that's called weaponized incompetence. I've

47:54

heard people on Twitter talk about

47:56

male incompetence as a deliberate strategy

47:59

of like, you know, you know, No, get what I've done. Anyway.

48:01

Of course, Liz Truss completely goes against my theory

48:03

of weaponizing competence being a gendered thing. Henry

48:07

Tudor, he is king before the age

48:09

of 30. He's accomplished quite a lot. He's

48:12

married the daughter of his

48:14

political enemies. We have the Tudor

48:16

dynasty, which means, Kiri, I can now

48:18

officially stop this podcast because we can't get into

48:21

the Tudors because of our rules. So the

48:23

podcast must stop now. So it's time for the

48:25

new ones window. The new ones window.

48:28

Adam, this is where

48:30

you get two uninterrupted minutes

48:33

to

48:36

tell us anything we need to know. Kiri and

48:38

I go and put on our red trousers like Jasper. I

48:40

mean, I've made up that fact. That's not a true historical fact.

48:42

I've just, please don't, listeners, please don't imagine

48:44

he's wearing red trousers. Adam, you have two

48:47

minutes to tell us something we need to know about

48:49

the rise of the Tudors, if that's what they were called.

48:51

So without much further ado, take it

48:53

away, please.

48:54

The key question is how well Stiffing Henry Tudor actually

48:57

was obviously, you know, practical

48:59

terms, not very. It's got one Welsh grandparent, but

49:02

it's got one French grandparent and two English.

49:05

So how Welsh does that make him? Well,

49:07

in the 15th century, actually more worst need to think because

49:10

that Welsh ancestry is what secures

49:12

him,

49:13

legitimacy, excuse me, an unestablished

49:16

lineage, which he doesn't otherwise have. And

49:18

why is that important? Well, partly because there

49:20

is no such thing as Wales in the period. Wales

49:22

consists of lots of beats. The, what's

49:24

weak way, who are we historians don't call the principality

49:27

and you've got 40 odd martial law trips and just actually 40 big

49:30

estates, the bits of private property. But

49:32

there is a Welsh identity and that Welsh identity is cultural,

49:34

it's political, it's based on language. So

49:37

lots of people thought Henry was Welsh.

49:39

And the poets were chief among them. The poets are

49:42

political actors in their own right. They are

49:44

there as spin doctors, spinning the political interests

49:46

of the big guys, the likes of William Herbert,

49:48

the likes of Jasper, the likes of Henry. And

49:51

of course they're acting in their own self just because they get paid for

49:53

this. And they have solar kits, they

49:55

go around and visit their patrons. And they say, could we have this from you?

49:57

Could we have this from me? And here's the political currents that

49:59

are. going on today and here's who's

50:02

ruling the roost. They emphasise

50:04

and stress that King Henry, King

50:06

Harry

50:07

is trying to unify Wales. What

50:09

they really want is Wales to be one country, one

50:12

nation.

50:13

Lord Dora Vets the idea,

50:14

Henry delivers it. Amazing. Thank

50:17

you so much, Kiri. He's a proud

50:19

Welshman after all. I mean, he's not necessarily

50:21

a Tudor, but he's a Welshman. You can have him.

50:23

Yeah, he sounds like me massively

50:25

overstating despite the fact that

50:27

I was born in England and have an English mother,

50:30

people like, I'm Welsh mate. I'm Welsh for the day

50:32

I die because I see it as fortuitous

50:34

in my career. I mean,

50:36

he'd have spoken

50:38

Welsh. I was the pig. I was so interested in

50:40

that because in Brittany as well, it's the Brethonic

50:42

as well that they spoke in that dialect.

50:45

So everywhere he's hopped around is sort

50:47

of been, because also that side of England as well

50:49

is the route is all in the Brethonic.

50:51

So it's amazing to hear

50:53

that he would have been, what did he conduct

50:55

himself bilingual? I presume.

50:56

Well, I mean, trilingly, because he's had

50:59

French as well. Oh, of course. Yeah. English, French

51:01

and Welsh. I mean, he spent 10 years at Raglan

51:04

in the care of William Herbert. He sees the most Welsh

51:06

place imaginable. It produces

51:08

vast amounts of poetry, vast amounts

51:11

of patronage.

51:12

And it's not like I'm at a university in Cardiff. Welsh

51:16

is the language of that court. He enjoys Welsh things.

51:18

He employs Welsh servants. He gives them a bonus

51:21

on St David's Day. You know, he gets

51:23

gifts of cheese and flanponina and

51:25

a Gloucester. He gets given most

51:27

flan mead sent up to

51:29

him from his friends and contacts in Wales.

51:31

He's in it for the perks, basically. So

51:34

what do you know now? Let's

51:41

crack on now with the What Do

51:43

You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz

51:45

for Kiri to see how much she has learned.

51:48

And Kiri, you are holding your face in dread.

51:51

If in doubt, I'm going to say Owen. That's

51:54

not a bad guess. We've got 10 questions. Are

51:56

you feeling confident? No, no, because

51:59

I'm I understand.

51:59

so much more than when we started but it's still

52:02

there's this sort of eight men who are tangled into

52:04

one thing for me so let's see how we get on.

52:06

That's fair enough there's been a lot of names and also I've

52:09

mangled some horrible pronunciations today and I'm so

52:11

sorry to the people of Wales for my crimes

52:13

I am trying my best honestly. Okay question

52:15

one in the 1200s the first people

52:18

who are not yet tutors rose to power

52:20

serving as administrators for which Welsh royals?

52:23

I already don't know. It begins

52:25

with G. Oh not Gwyneth. Yes!

52:28

Okay so

52:30

sorry. Question two on what

52:33

day of the year in 1345 did

52:35

Tiddio ap Gonry lead a gang

52:37

to kill an English lawyer called Henry Schalford?

52:40

Was it February the 14th? Valentine's

52:42

Day. It was question three the

52:44

early tutors who weren't tutors lost everything

52:47

backing which Welsh leader against

52:49

the English?

52:50

Is it Oenglindor? It

52:52

was Oenglindor. Question of four you're doing

52:54

great. Despite being a servant Owen

52:56

Tudor landed himself the Dowager Queen

52:59

of England as a wife according to legend

53:01

how did they hook up?

53:02

He fell into her lap in a pub

53:05

or she saw him do like a Mr Darcy

53:08

in a pond and be like I want to have a date with him.

53:10

And then injured her cheek somehow.

53:13

Question five Edmund and Jasper Tudor

53:15

were step brothers of King Henry the sixth what

53:18

noble title did he give them when they

53:20

were in their 20s? Wait

53:21

was this is this a uterine

53:23

thing? Like. But

53:26

what noble title was it? Not Duke but

53:29

it was Earl of Pembroke and Earl of Richmond.

53:32

It was yeah brilliant well done. Question

53:35

six super wealthy Margaret Beaufort

53:37

was tragically young when she was forced to

53:39

marry Edmund Tudor how odd was

53:42

she when she was betrothed to him? Was it nine?

53:44

It was nine and they married at 12

53:47

yes horrible horrible stuff. Question

53:49

seven Jasper Tudor had a talent for escaping from

53:51

battles in which civil war was he

53:53

fighting? Think chocolates.

53:55

Oh war of the roses. Question

53:59

eight

53:59

After escaping from the siege of Pembroke Castle

54:02

in 1471, where did Jasper

54:04

and Henry Tudor flee to for 14

54:06

years? Brittany. It

54:08

was Brittany. Question nine, how

54:10

did Margaret Beaufort and Elizabeth Woodville

54:13

put an end to the Wars of the Roses?

54:14

Henry married the York

54:17

woman. Yes, another. And he sort of united

54:19

families. Yes,

54:22

Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor married to

54:24

unite their houses and this for a perfect 10,

54:26

Kerry. In what year was Henry

54:28

Tudor crowned Henry VII of

54:31

England, beginning the Tudor dynasty?

54:34

I don't know. 14 something

54:36

towards the end of the 14th. Yeah,

54:40

1480. I mean, I'm going

54:43

to say six because I was born in 1986. Oh no, 1485.

54:46

Nine

54:50

out of ten is a very strong score. Well done. We've

54:52

had an incredibly complicated rummage through the Tudors

54:55

who weren't Tudors. Thank you so much, Kerry.

54:57

And listener, for more on Welsh hero

55:00

Owen Glendoor, check out our episode with the

55:02

lovely Ellis James or for more historical

55:04

escape artists, you know, if you want your Jasper

55:06

sequel, check out the episode we did on

55:08

Jack Shepherd, the 18th century criminal celebrity.

55:10

He's very funny. You'll find them all on BBC

55:13

Sounds. And remember, if you've enjoyed this podcast,

55:15

please leave a review, share the show with your friends.

55:16

Subscribe to You're Dead To Me on BBC

55:19

Sounds so you never miss an episode. But

55:21

all that's left for me to do is say a huge thank you

55:23

to our guests in History Corner. We had the

55:25

charming Dr. Adam Chapman from the Institute of Historical

55:28

Research. Thank you, Adam. Thank you, everybody.

55:31

And in Comedy Corner, we had the magnificent Kiri Pritchard-McLean.

55:34

Thank you, Kiri.

55:34

Thank you so much for having me. I've

55:37

loved that. My brain is throbbing,

55:39

but in a very lovely way. That might

55:41

be a

55:42

stroke. So get that checked out. I

55:44

can smell toast. Is that okay? Oh no.

55:46

Okay. Okay. And to you lovely

55:48

listener, join me next time as we hack away

55:50

at the roots of another historical family tree.

55:53

But for now, I'm off to go and sign a 14 year

55:55

lease on a chateau in Brittany. Sounds lovely.

55:57

Bye.

56:01

You're Dead To Me was a production by The Athletic for

56:03

BBC Radio 4. The research was by Caitlin

56:05

Rankin McCabe. This episode was written by Emma Neguse,

56:07

Caitlin Rankin McCabe, Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow

56:10

and me. It was produced by Emma Neguse and

56:12

me. The assistant producer was Emma Rose Price

56:14

Goodfellow, the project manager for Isla Matthews

56:16

and the audio producer was Steve Hankey.

56:29

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and a royal dynasty plotting its return.

57:45

Stream Europe's Royals Revealed on

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BBC Select. Find out more at bbcselect.com

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forward slash Europe's

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Royals.