0:07

Hello and welcome to Being Well. I'm Forest

0:09

Hanson. If you're new to the podcast, thanks

0:11

for joining us today. And if you've listened

0:13

before, welcome back. I've been

0:15

looking forward to doing this episode for

0:18

literally years. I'm joined today by my

0:20

wonderful partner and an associate

0:22

therapist, Elizabeth Ferreira. So Elizabeth, how are

0:24

you doing today? I'm doing great.

0:26

I'm really glad that you're here. Yeah, I

0:28

am too. And I'm glad we're sitting

0:31

down having this conversation. Yeah. So

0:33

we wanted to talk about relationships today and we've wanted

0:35

to do an episode like this forever

0:38

in part because hello, we're in a

0:40

relationship, but also because people come to

0:42

you to talk about a

0:44

wide variety of issues. You focus on

0:46

somatic interventions and particularly on helping people

0:48

with trauma. A lot of

0:50

trauma is relational in nature, which means

0:52

a lot of the time people are

0:54

talking to you about their relationships, either

0:57

their current relationships, past relationships or hey,

0:59

relationships that they want to create in

1:01

the future. And so I wanted to start by just

1:03

running an idea by you that I've been thinking about

1:05

a little bit. Who? Exciting.

1:11

So I think that a lot of the

1:13

time people are carrying around this myth that

1:16

we perpetuate about relationships, that a

1:18

relationship solves your problems. Someday

1:20

your prince will come, you will find

1:23

the person who is going to deliver you from

1:25

your circumstance, whether your circumstance is a life circumstance or

1:27

it's something going on inside of you that you don't

1:29

like. And hey, when you meet that

1:31

person, everything will just click, it'll be beautiful and we'll

1:33

figure it out together. In my experience,

1:35

it's almost exactly the opposite of that. Relationships

1:38

reveal your problems. Even if they're

1:40

with an incredible person, I think

1:43

that we both had a lot

1:45

of problems that were revealed by

1:47

our relationship, even though we

1:49

have a great relationship that I'm super happy with.

1:52

Yeah, no, I think you're

1:54

spot on that when we're

1:56

in relationship with another person, they're...

2:00

able to witness us sometimes better

2:02

than we can witness ourselves. And

2:04

I think to some degree, the

2:06

healthy impulse of a relationship is

2:09

to reflect back to your partner, hey, look

2:12

at it. Yeah,

2:15

totally. But in that natural

2:17

kind of impulse, we can do a

2:19

lot of harm to each other and

2:21

it can create a lot of conflict

2:24

that actually challenges or

2:26

threatens the attachment. And

2:28

so it's sort of like, hmm,

2:30

well, how do you hold

2:32

up a compassionate mirror for your partner

2:35

and make that reflection without

2:38

being like, you're a mess

2:40

and you need to fix yourself and God damn

2:42

it, I'm so sick of this. And

2:45

I think that if somebody hears that, they might naturally

2:47

think something like, well, does that mean that I need

2:49

to be a perfectly mentally healthy person

2:51

before I get into a relationship? And clearly that's

2:53

not what we're saying here, right? I wasn't. Yeah,

2:56

I still have not. So we're still working

2:58

on that one. Yeah. But

3:00

I feel that you need to have

3:03

enough self-awareness to be able to separate

3:05

out whose problem is this that

3:07

we're dealing with right now, whose material is

3:09

coming into the room right now. Is this

3:11

my material? Is this your material or is

3:14

this material that we have together based on

3:16

the way that we're interacting inside of this

3:18

relationship? And I don't

3:20

know if that self-awareness is like the number one

3:22

relational skill that I would mention

3:25

to people, but it's not the very,

3:27

very short list. I would say it's a pretty

3:29

big one. Yeah. So yeah, I'm with you

3:31

and I want by no means what we're saying

3:33

to contribute to that sort

3:36

of myth that once

3:39

you're healed, which I have

3:41

no idea what that word means anymore,

3:43

whatever that means, like

3:46

once you reach that unattainable thing that clearly

3:48

you are not now, that

3:50

then you will be worthy of

3:52

a relationship. And

3:54

I think every human being

3:56

is innately worthy of being

3:58

in a kind, compassionate, passionate, loving,

4:01

healthy relationship, no matter where

4:03

they are on their healing

4:05

journey. So kind of

4:07

within that, just speaking back

4:09

to that foundational

4:11

ability to be self-aware.

4:14

And how I define that is there's

4:17

a part of you that's able to

4:19

observe what's happening while

4:21

you are a participant in that action. Like,

4:24

can you kind of witness yourself? Are you able to hear the

4:26

tone that's coming out of your mouth? A

4:29

lot of the time when we talk about self-awareness, it's

4:31

in the frame of you need

4:33

to be aware of your own content.

4:35

And that is a really big part of it. But

4:38

sometimes you also need to be aware of when it's

4:40

the other person's content. And so people can kind of

4:42

err on either side here. There are definitely people who

4:47

get into a relationship or are just in an

4:49

intro. And we're using the word relationship really broadly

4:51

here, by the way. This could be the relationship

4:53

you have with your mom or with your partner

4:55

or with your- Your dog,

4:57

yes. Or with your boss at work, whatever it

4:59

is. Like our issues can get exacerbated by any

5:01

kind of relationship. So you might be in one

5:04

of those dyads, one of

5:06

those relationships, and start

5:09

to feel some uncomfortable feelings inside, some

5:13

painful feelings in your stomach, some weird feelings,

5:15

some weird feelings of anxiety, some

5:18

fears are starting to bubble up. And

5:20

you attribute those as problems that the

5:22

other person is causing. This

5:24

person is causing my anxiety. They're causing

5:26

my fear. They're causing my frustration. So

5:29

that's one kind of problem. When in truth,

5:31

that issue is located inside of you somewhere.

5:33

You have a pattern around anxiety that's coming

5:35

forward right now because of what's happening inside

5:37

of the relationship. There

5:40

are also plenty of people who feel those feelings and

5:42

they go, this is all me. This is all me

5:44

all the time. When the truth is that there is

5:46

something that's happening in the other person that

5:49

is causing them to feel that way.

5:51

So either way is possible here. And

5:53

I'm wondering what you think helps

5:55

people develop that discernment. first

6:01

curiosity is what

6:04

is it like to explore the opposite?

6:07

So if someone comes in and is

6:09

saying, it's all my fault, I'm the

6:11

problem, I keep blah, blah,

6:13

blah, it's like, are

6:15

you also able to explore how maybe

6:18

your partner might be

6:20

contributing to this experience? And

6:23

vice versa, if someone comes in as

6:25

really like blaming and maybe shame each

6:27

other partner and is like, it's all

6:29

their problem, right? You see,

6:32

okay, well, how much can we

6:34

tolerate perhaps? Seeing

6:36

if we can observe what the

6:39

opposite is like, like, oh, well, what

6:41

might you be bringing into the relationship?

6:43

What might you be coming in

6:45

and not in a judgmental or shameful way, but

6:48

just to be authentically curious about it?

6:50

Because often when we're in relationship, our

6:53

parts start to play with each other, you know,

6:56

thinking that, and I come

6:58

from the sense that the self

7:00

is multidimensional, made up of many

7:03

parts. Very IFS-y. Yeah. So if

7:05

there is a point of tension or conflict, do

7:08

you go, ooh, or do you go, ooh,

7:11

this might be an opportunity to learn more about

7:14

myself. I think that stance of curiosity

7:16

is a huge part of it. Like

7:18

speaking personally, as you are

7:20

very familiar with, I had

7:22

a lot of view when I was

7:24

a younger person, and I still have

7:27

a lot of view. I have a

7:29

view driven human being. I have a

7:31

perspective on the rights and the wrongs

7:33

and all of the ways in which we

7:35

should or shouldn't be behaving. You have

7:37

that gift of justice. Oh, thank you. That's a

7:39

very sweet and kind of way to put

7:41

it. So thank you, Elizabeth. I think

7:43

that for a long time, it might have

7:45

had a justice orientation, but it was delivered in

7:47

like really shitty wrapping paper. And I

7:50

had a lot of attachment to those views. We talked about

7:52

attachment to view a lot in Buddhism. And

7:54

I was just really wrapped up in those stances. And

7:56

as time has gone on, I've developed a little bit

7:58

more space in the world. them. It's still a

8:01

tendency that I have and it's just

8:03

like a part of who I am. And

8:05

I don't dislike that tendency. By

8:08

developing a little room around it has

8:10

been immensely helpful for me as time

8:13

has gone on. And so that idea

8:15

of exploring the opposite, you

8:18

have to be open to the possibility

8:20

that the opposite is true in order

8:22

to explore it, right? And so that's

8:24

just like a really useful practice for

8:27

life in general, but definitely for a

8:29

relationship. So I know what's

8:31

the version of that for you. So

8:34

I have a part that

8:37

can feel like my

8:40

partner can't attune to me. Like

8:42

can't give

8:44

me what I need. Can't, you

8:46

know, divine from the wa,

8:49

like how I'm feeling. You

8:51

know, can't read the room. Can't read the bones.

8:54

And I think, you know, this

8:56

definitely showed up in our relationship, but

8:58

it showed up in previous relationships that

9:00

I had where I

9:03

would feel very

9:07

left out or I'm a

9:09

little shy for some reason

9:11

today to say abandoned, but it was

9:13

sort of like I

9:16

took it as a clear signal of, oh, this

9:18

person just isn't for me. Like,

9:20

oh, this is wrong. This isn't going

9:22

to work. And it fed into my

9:25

own sort of limiting beliefs that I'm

9:27

just a really complicated person that

9:29

is never really going to

9:32

find a healthy relationship because most of

9:34

the time I don't really like anybody, you

9:37

know? And that was coming from a resentment

9:39

of having never felt met by someone that,

9:41

you know, that no one

9:43

could ever really enter my world and join

9:46

me. I was always the one joining out. What

9:50

helped you interrogate that? Well,

9:54

you're probably not going to like this. That's

9:57

fine because, well, I think it might be surprising. surprised

10:00

by how all of the same picture are here actually.

10:02

Because I think that over time, I

10:04

certainly have become better at reading

10:07

you, interpreting what you need, being

10:09

sensitive and responsive, like all of

10:11

those normal good relationship animals, right?

10:14

But man, I think the bait change has been in you and

10:16

in your accepting

10:19

the good enough partner, to put it a

10:21

certain kind of way rather than the perfect

10:23

partner that doesn't actually exist. And it feels

10:26

like you've gotten more okay

10:28

over time with

10:30

me being 80% right and

10:33

that being enough. Is that a fair

10:35

read? I

10:38

think so. I'm

10:40

feeling what you're putting down, it's feeling true. You

10:42

know, yeah. I'm vibing

10:44

in the right direction. Good job babe, you're doing

10:46

it. Thanks. So

10:51

to get back kind of like to your question,

10:55

and maybe working our way backwards, I think

10:57

what also helped with that

10:59

too, was that as

11:01

you became less rigid on

11:04

what was right and wrong, it

11:06

allowed me to advocate

11:09

more for what I actually needed. Because

11:12

I no longer felt like I was gonna be judged. You

11:14

were bumping into the last few, yeah. Yeah, I didn't

11:17

feel like I was gonna be told, oh no,

11:19

Elizabeth, that's not how you be, that's not what

11:21

you do. And instead you

11:23

started to go, I believe you, I

11:25

believe what you're asking for and I will give it

11:27

to you. And that really allowed

11:30

me to start to feel, because now

11:32

I was really getting what I needed,

11:34

that when it was the 80% there,

11:37

it was like close enough.

11:40

It gave us both grace, I feel.

11:43

Right on. But I think what really

11:45

helped me in this kind of harkens

11:47

back to that self-awareness piece, was

11:50

there was a certain point in our relationship, the

11:53

great chaotic moment that

11:55

was COVID-19 and

11:58

the pandemic and everything. Yeah,

12:00

and I was a mess.

12:03

I was not okay. My

12:06

whole life flipped upside down. Everything

12:09

that had been a part of my identity I

12:11

felt was ripped out from under me. And

12:14

so there was a lot of

12:16

me being pushed into a very

12:19

tight, condensed, transformational process.

12:21

And what honestly helped

12:23

me was starting to

12:26

view myself through that more

12:28

psycho-spiritual lens and doing

12:30

that shadow work

12:33

piece of going, why

12:35

does it bother me so much when

12:38

my partner says this?

12:40

Or why am I becoming

12:43

so far inside of myself

12:45

when X, Y, and Z

12:47

come up? And I

12:50

thought, well, I can't change my partner. I have

12:53

no power over that, but

12:55

what do I have the power over? I

12:57

can change myself. And

12:59

that was where I found my agency. And it's

13:01

also what drove me to look

13:04

with more force inside

13:06

of myself. And what

13:08

I really realized were there were these

13:11

abandoned wounded parts of me that

13:13

I couldn't even attune to, that I

13:15

didn't like, that I was like, ugh,

13:18

I don't like that part. And

13:20

for a year, I tried to just cut them

13:23

out, be like, no, but the

13:25

little shits kept coming back.

13:27

And I'm still working on

13:29

it, but you learn to

13:32

be more self compassionate and

13:34

then attune to those parts.

13:37

And then you don't feel like

13:39

you're applying so much pressure on

13:41

your partner to do something that

13:43

you can't even do with yourself. Great

13:46

answer. Super deep

13:48

and thorough. There's one piece of it that

13:51

stood out to me, and it was just a comment

13:53

you made in passing that we talk about all

13:55

the time inside of our relationship, but might be

13:58

new to people listening or watching. You

14:01

said, to paraphrase, I can't change myself, or

14:03

I can't change my partner, but I know I can change myself.

14:05

Yeah. And

14:08

I smiled and nodded, even

14:10

though we are in what I would describe as

14:13

a very open-minded, malleable, receptive

14:15

to the other person's input kind of

14:18

relationship. Even so, that's 100% the case.

14:22

You cannot change the person that you're with and

14:25

continue to be with somebody off of the hope

14:27

that they are going to change in the exact

14:29

ways that you want them to change. It's kind

14:32

of a full-seran tier. That's kind

14:34

of the paradox. If I take

14:36

all of my psychic energy, and I

14:38

don't just mean in the wooey psychic,

14:40

but, you know, the internal psychological processes,

14:43

if I take all of that and I externalize

14:46

it on my partner, trying to

14:48

get you to change, nothing is

14:50

going to happen. Because you're going to become

14:52

defended, you're going to have a part that

14:54

goes, I don't want to give her what

14:56

she wants, she's a whiny little hmm. And

14:59

so, you know, and then I'm going to, there's

15:02

that conflict. But if I

15:04

come in with softness, and

15:07

I put my currency of vulnerability

15:09

on the table, and

15:12

I go, hey, I am

15:14

changing in these ways, the

15:17

kind of amazing thing that happens

15:20

is that you change. Because

15:23

we're in a system together, and that force

15:26

can't help but be channeled. So

15:29

it's sort of this, in my, you know,

15:31

weird and wonky, neurodiverse brain, kind of goes, I

15:35

mean, that's kind of the way, is I got to go first. If

15:37

I want you to change in a way, I need to change in

15:39

it first. And then,

15:41

at least my experience is, you

15:45

end up changing in the ways that I need or that I want. Totally. And

15:48

it's really easy. There's

15:51

no vulnerability in going to somebody and saying,

15:53

here are all the ways that you're doing

15:55

it wrong. Yeah. That is

15:57

a zero on the zero to one. 100

16:00

scale of vulnerability, that is a zero. But

16:03

going to somebody else and saying,

16:05

hey, here's what I'm seeing

16:07

inside of myself. Here are the things

16:09

that I'm planning on doing about it. And this is the

16:11

result that I hope that we get out of it. That

16:14

is an infinitely more vulnerable position to put yourself in.

16:16

And I think that's part of the reason that people

16:18

don't do it as much is that it's, you're

16:21

just putting like so many more cards on the

16:23

table. You're so much more revealed with the other

16:25

person. And certainly

16:28

early on in relationships, you're basically

16:30

meeting somebody's ad agency. You're

16:33

meeting their mask, you're meeting their manager, you're

16:35

meeting their PR department, the

16:38

whole thing. And then it takes a while to get

16:40

down to those levels where more and more of the

16:42

real parts of a person start to come online. There

16:47

are very few people on the

16:50

planet who really enjoy being vulnerable.

16:53

I'm not one of them. Some people,

16:55

I'd relatively small subset of people

16:57

like being vulnerable because it draws

17:00

attention their way. And that

17:02

creates interpersonal resources for them that they

17:04

can use in a variety of different ways. But

17:07

in a relationship, if you want it to be deep

17:09

and meaningful and connected, you kind of have a few

17:11

options here. You can either be authentic

17:13

and vulnerable and face the pain of that. You

17:16

can come to peace inside of yourself

17:18

that the true you is never

17:20

really gonna be seen or met by your partner because

17:22

you haven't expressed it to them clearly. Or

17:25

you can just repress it and

17:27

get really resentful and pissed off. And

17:30

you're kind of constantly frustrated that you're not

17:32

being met in those ways that you

17:34

want it to be met or those ways that you

17:36

were describing earlier. But one of the

17:38

hardest things is to actually tell people what you want. Yeah,

17:41

and isn't it interesting how we

17:43

literally try every other avenue other than

17:45

being vulnerable? Oh yeah, it's wild. Because

17:47

being vulnerable is painful. It

17:50

sucks. It's like looking to my open

17:52

wound and please love me. That

17:55

is a very vulnerable place to be.

17:57

And it can be at least...

18:00

in my experience, I always have to

18:02

move through the river

18:04

of pain before I can be

18:06

vulnerable every single time. And

18:09

I think that partly is due to the

18:11

fact I have complex trauma, and

18:14

I've had a lot of relational wounding,

18:17

but it's always there. Even if

18:20

the reward at the end feels

18:22

great, it's like every single time,

18:26

here I go back in the boiling water again.

18:29

And but with

18:31

that, I think if

18:33

you want to truly be intimate with a

18:35

person, you have to be

18:38

vulnerable first. And

18:40

it never works if you're trying to

18:43

make the other person be vulnerable. And

18:47

it makes me think about

18:49

somatically that kind of difference,

18:51

right? Like between penetrating energy

18:53

and like spacious welcoming energy.

18:56

And I feel sometimes we

18:59

can have a charge,

19:02

right? And I hate

19:04

to kind of use this word, but I don't know what else

19:06

to use it. Maybe you can find a different one, but it's sort

19:08

of that forced vulnerability.

19:13

It's very clearly like someone's trying to pull

19:15

it out of you. I

19:17

know what you mean for sure. Yeah, my

19:19

system will immediately go, no.

19:22

But if someone is just kind

19:24

of spacious and wide and just

19:26

is vulnerable, it's way easier for

19:28

a system like mine to then

19:31

soften and relax and kind of

19:34

join in that vulnerability that way. So

19:38

some people aren't vulnerable in their relationships today

19:40

because they've never had a good experience of

19:42

vulnerability. It's literally never gone well for them

19:44

or like conflict has never gone well for

19:46

them in the past. It always

19:49

led to an explosion. It always created more of a

19:51

problem. It was never resolved in a way that felt

19:53

good for the person. So

19:56

we're big

19:58

animals, we're big dogs at the end of

20:00

the day. that gets programmed into us behaviorally.

20:03

I know that you do a lot

20:05

of work with people around complex PTSD

20:07

and trauma related issues, many of which

20:10

are relational in nature. And

20:12

I'm wondering what you've seen help people

20:14

start to get enough

20:16

space around those patterns where they can actually do something

20:18

about them, where they can essentially like learn a different

20:20

way of being over time. I

20:23

feel it's about supporting

20:25

the person to

20:28

have a vulnerable relationship with

20:30

themselves, to be

20:32

able to hold themselves being

20:36

honest, observing, compassionate.

20:41

And, you know, in

20:43

the room with me, so to speak,

20:45

it's the therapist or the coach, whatever

20:47

role I'm taking on, most of the

20:49

time I feel like I'm just being

20:51

there to witness. But

20:54

what I'm witnessing is someone perhaps for

20:56

the first time dare to be truly

20:58

vulnerable with themselves. And

21:01

I feel just having someone

21:03

witness that can

21:05

be a really powerful

21:08

transformational force. And

21:10

sometimes we need a little bit of

21:12

help getting there either by

21:15

a reflection or

21:17

a little bit of mirroring, right?

21:20

But I feel that

21:22

is what starts to help people

21:25

is that they

21:27

can soften in that vulnerability in the

21:29

room with me, in the

21:31

room with themselves. And it starts

21:34

to build a degree of presence

21:37

in that kind of space. So

21:40

I don't like to say the window of tolerance

21:42

because I don't know, that just sounds horrible. I

21:45

like to see window of presence, right?

21:48

So you're building your

21:50

capacity to be vulnerable.

21:53

And then you get to practice

21:55

kind of outside. Like

21:57

what's it like? You know, don't dump

21:59

all the treasure on one person all at once,

22:01

of course not, you know, like you

22:04

gotta earn this. But something

22:09

small like, hey, I would really like

22:11

to spend more time with you. Or

22:13

I like that too, would

22:16

you like to do this together? Like

22:18

making little bits, little small things. And

22:22

for someone with trauma, those aren't

22:24

little small things. Those are really

22:26

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22:28

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23:40

We've all been in situations where we felt like we

23:42

needed to bend the truth a bit. Maybe

23:44

it was with that nosy neighbor or

23:46

distant relative who started asking questions that

23:48

were just a little too personal. While

23:51

you may have to fudge it sometimes

23:53

when dealing with other people, you shouldn't

23:55

feel that way when talking to your

23:57

doctor. Enter ZocDoc, the place where you can find the

23:59

best. Um,

26:00

and I just

26:03

popped out. I normally

26:05

wouldn't show them that, but that just popped out

26:07

of me. No, what I

26:10

have meant was, what

26:12

I meant was that normally

26:14

like, I'm the very practical

26:16

ABC person and you're more the

26:19

sort of big spacious person. So.

26:22

And I splatter it at the wall. I see what sticks. Yeah. So

26:24

giving me a beautiful little practical transition. I was

26:26

like, oh, right there. And then of course I,

26:28

and then I just immediately blew

26:30

it up of course, but hey, what you going to do?

26:33

So anyways, so it's easy to have a

26:35

great relationship when everyone's on the same page about

26:37

everything. When everything's going super smooth, when you want

26:39

the same things, when you need the same things,

26:41

all of that stuff. That

26:43

relationship does not exist. That

26:45

is not a real relationship. Relationships are defined

26:48

by how you manage conflict, how you manage

26:50

differences. And one of the things that you've

26:52

said to me recently that I think is just right on and

26:54

stuck with me is that relationships are

26:56

defined by whether or not you can disagree well.

26:58

Yep. So what

27:00

skillful are you at identifying differences and

27:03

being okay with them? Whatever

27:05

okay looks like for you and your partner

27:07

or you and the person that you're going

27:09

through this with. And

27:11

something that really stands out to me is

27:15

something you just did, which is

27:17

when you were giving that kind of role

27:19

play depiction of what that, how that person

27:21

communicated, they were quite specific about

27:23

how much of what

27:26

they needed, they needed. You said,

27:28

oh, I would like this little thing from

27:30

you. This is it pretty

27:32

specifically. And I think that would be really

27:34

great. Often when

27:36

we complain or when we express a

27:38

need to use the language that's a

27:40

little bit kinder, we do

27:42

it in this big amorphous way. It's

27:46

totally unbounded. You just don't listen

27:48

to me. That

27:50

might be true, but I can't do

27:52

a lot with that information other

27:54

than like try to be a better listener. But

27:57

I'm going to interpret that through my lens.

28:00

what good listening means. That could be

28:02

very different from your lens of what

28:04

good listening means. So now all of

28:06

a sudden we're in the world of

28:08

having this definitional problem. What does it

28:10

mean to be a good listener? Different

28:12

people define that in different ways, right?

28:15

But you know what I can really act on? Forrest,

28:17

I want five minutes a day from

28:19

you where you're just sitting

28:21

next to me and you're only focused

28:23

on me. And I can

28:25

just talk about whatever I need to talk about.

28:28

Okay, I can sign up to that. Five minutes a

28:30

day, it's not a lot of pain

28:32

point for me. Maybe it really

28:34

serves my partner, whatever it is. That's a

28:36

pretty pedantic example here. Yeah. But it's a

28:38

simple example of the kind of thing that

28:40

often becomes a stumbling block for people. And

28:43

I think that, because now we're getting

28:45

also into wants and needs. And

28:48

it's really hard, I think,

28:50

for most people to ask

28:54

for what they want and ask for what they need. And

28:56

we're so bad

29:00

at it that that's how

29:02

the resentments come in. Because

29:04

we try to say it kind

29:06

of in a roundabout way or

29:09

we try to allude to it. Well,

29:11

only if you want to, that kind

29:13

of stuff. And we're not direct

29:16

and we're not clear because the risk is if

29:18

we are direct and we are clear, you could

29:20

say no. You could say,

29:22

wow, that sounds really

29:24

dumb. Or you could

29:26

be nasty with it. And I

29:28

think that's the underlying fear is,

29:31

well, if I actually say it,

29:34

it's going to be rejected again. And so,

29:38

I think that when

29:41

we're in a relationship with a person who's

29:44

trying, someone

29:47

who kind of in that scenario just

29:49

described when you don't listen to me,

29:51

okay, well, you can kind of start

29:53

to see they are trying their best.

29:55

They just were missing each

29:57

other. There's a misattunement happening. through

32:00

that process actively. You're just kind

32:02

of stuck in one moment

32:05

where it was all unstable, and

32:07

you're having a really hard time internalizing the feeling

32:09

of like, oh, that actually went okay. And

32:13

that's easier said than done, particularly if you

32:15

have a trauma history inside of relationships, ways

32:17

are said than done. But

32:19

still, it's something that we can lean into actively

32:22

as a process. Ask yourself just the question like,

32:24

hey, when was the last time I thought about

32:27

what was actually stable with this other person?

32:29

And really went back through the Rolodex of

32:31

instances together and went, huh,

32:33

what can I learn looking at this

32:35

whole picture of interactions rather than focusing

32:37

on any single one of them? I

32:41

think that process of

32:43

updating requires connection.

32:48

Because often those moments are moments

32:50

when a part of us is

32:53

felt wronged or abandoned or totally

32:56

missed by our partner. And

32:58

so that moment

33:00

in time can have

33:02

an emotional trigger to it. And

33:06

I feel like those

33:08

get cleared up in a relationship when

33:10

the other person can hold space for

33:13

the other person who's holding this to be like,

33:16

I need to lay

33:18

this on the table. That at

33:21

that time when this happened, it really hurt me.

33:23

Or being more direct, you

33:27

really hurt me when that happened. And

33:30

I feel like that

33:34

dance also

33:36

helps strengthen a relationship, and this

33:38

isn't just partnered relationships, it can

33:41

be friendships or whatever, of

33:43

that it's safe to be vulnerable with this

33:45

person. Like I'm not making you

33:48

responsible for my pain, but I

33:51

need you to at least witness it. I

33:53

need you to be able to let it pass

33:55

over you and through you and

33:57

trust that you're not going to now hold it and

33:59

resent me because because I'm trying to move past this

34:01

point. And that's like another

34:04

thing that sometimes can happen. Yeah, someone opens up and

34:06

they're like, you really did this. And then the person's

34:08

trying to be spacious and open, but then they're like,

34:10

oh, now I'm mad

34:12

and like resentful. And

34:14

it's like, okay, how can we reach that

34:17

compassionate place of

34:20

I'm holding space for my partner? What

34:22

does my partner need from me in

34:24

this moment? And one of the

34:27

kind of things I think is helpful is

34:29

that often when we're in a moment of activation or

34:32

high degree of like disagreement or stress, we're

34:35

not really 32 year old Elizabeth.

34:39

And I dare not say your age for us. But

34:42

even- Because I'm that old,

34:44

because I'm that in the ground. I'm just 36,

34:46

it's okay. I didn't know if you named it.

34:48

No, I'm open about

34:50

being ancient. Okay, yeah. And a boomer.

34:55

No, you just an old millennial. Anyway,

34:58

my point is that often it is

35:00

the little Elizabeth and

35:03

the little forest going at

35:05

it. Yeah, absolutely, 100%. And

35:07

something that you said there that I really want to pull out

35:10

is, what does my partner

35:12

need from me right now? Yeah. Or

35:14

how can I support my partner right now? A

35:17

really, really, really critical part of that that I kind

35:19

of alluded to earlier, but I just want to talk

35:21

about a little directly right now, is

35:23

there is a huge gap

35:25

between, oh, they said that they

35:29

want to be soothed. This

35:33

is how I would want to be

35:35

soothed. So I'm going to do that

35:37

for them because that's what soothing looks

35:39

like. Versus

35:42

actually thinking, huh, what

35:44

does this person want? Maybe I should ask them, how

35:46

would you like to be soothed? And they may or

35:49

may not be able to answer that question. If they

35:51

can't answer it, there might be a lot of different

35:53

reasons for that. And then you kind of have to

35:55

play the guessing game together. But

35:58

that's just a thing that I... people do over and

36:00

over again that creates a lot of problems for them

36:02

is that they try to soothe their partner by doing

36:05

what would be soothed in for them, or they try

36:07

to support their partner by doing what would be supportive

36:09

for them. When the truth

36:11

is that you need to figure out what is

36:13

actually supportive for you, not like what would

36:15

help me out in the same situation. Yeah.

36:20

And because I can't help myself, that

36:23

is extremely difficult for folks that

36:25

have relational or developmental

36:27

trauma. Because just

36:29

speaking from my own experience, I

36:32

remember there would be times when you would kind of

36:34

ask me that. And it

36:37

would feel horrible because

36:39

inside I didn't know how to

36:42

tell you what I really needed

36:45

and it felt very

36:47

penetrative. You know, like

36:49

that, like, well, what do you want? You

36:51

know, like, okay, what do you need? It

36:53

was kind of scary. The

36:57

little Elizabeth in me was like,

37:00

I got to hurry up and find the right answer

37:02

because this feels, what if I give the

37:04

wrong one? And

37:07

over time, making

37:10

small little bits, and I think

37:12

you maybe have felt this, but

37:14

that was really

37:16

difficult for me in our

37:18

relationship to actually tell you

37:20

specifically what I need.

37:23

Yeah, for sure. And in

37:25

many ways it still is, but I just

37:28

got to name it because this memory just keeps popping up.

37:30

But one time I was

37:32

real in the soup of stuff

37:35

and I was feeling really dysregulated

37:37

and just

37:39

totally overwhelmed. And

37:42

when I get that way, I seek

37:44

isolation. I'm like, because

37:47

it's the only way I've ever known how to

37:49

self soothe. And here's,

37:51

you know, my loving partner clearly

37:54

can see I'm not doing okay and

37:56

want to do that. And

37:58

I didn't. You didn't have to

38:00

ask you. You just got

38:02

up, you grabbed the hairbrush, and

38:05

you started just brushing my hair. And

38:08

it was this click moment because

38:12

that moment was achievable because of all

38:14

the other moments of me

38:16

pushing to really be vulnerable, being

38:19

like, talking doesn't help me, you

38:21

know, just immediately move into touch. And

38:24

you tracking that when you brush my

38:26

hair, deeply soothing experience for me, right?

38:30

And so those moments, I

38:32

feel, are only attainable because

38:36

I did a lot of work

38:38

to be able to reveal myself, be

38:40

vulnerable in that way to show you these

38:42

are the elements of what

38:45

actually soothes me and helps me. Yeah,

38:47

that's the magic part of that is

38:50

that I was not, this was not a

38:52

moment of mind reading. Yeah. It

38:54

was a moment of accrued experience with a

38:56

person based on effective

38:58

communication. Yeah. And the

39:01

moments that end up looking like mind

39:03

reading after many years of being

39:05

in a relationship together, and we've been in a relationship

39:08

for seven years, there are many people

39:10

listening to this who've been in relationships for

39:12

much longer periods of time than that, but

39:14

like, okay, that's enough time to accrue some

39:16

experience with each other and really learn about

39:18

what does and doesn't make you feel better, you know?

39:21

And so, and that was the result of that. And

39:23

it was really beautiful moment. I think it was meaningful

39:25

for both of us in different kinds of ways, because

39:27

I got to feel like a dog with a job.

39:29

I got to feel like I did a good, you

39:32

know? And that was like very satisfying for me. I

39:34

like feeling like I am capable and effective inside

39:36

of my life. And then me being

39:39

able to tell you that's it, you

39:42

know, saying that that's exactly what

39:44

I needed. Thank you so much,

39:46

like giving that reassurance, because that's

39:48

also vulnerable too, you

39:50

know? Totally. When you can drag your partner

39:52

just once, leave me alone. And you're like,

39:55

we're playing, like, we're not. Just slide

39:58

in there. Oh, okay. So

40:01

something I think that we should talk a

40:03

little bit about here is that we're painting

40:05

a picture of a certain kind of relationship.

40:07

Yeah, we have a specific relationship works well

40:09

for us. Yep we've definitely changed a lot

40:11

of people over time and and some of

40:14

that growth has been a lot

40:16

of that growth has been driven by the nature of

40:18

our relationship, but That's just

40:20

us. We're just two people and there are a

40:22

lot of different ways To

40:24

have a very happy very satisfying relationship and sometimes

40:26

what can happen when you listen to like podcasts

40:29

of people talking about their relationship There's a lot

40:31

of pedestal and happens. Yeah, this is the right

40:33

way to do it and Our

40:36

kind of soft relational style may or may not

40:38

be for you and I think that's totally fine

40:41

When I was prepping for this conversation I looked up

40:43

a little bit the research because I couldn't help myself

40:46

From the Gottman's on relationship styles and

40:48

they'd outlined these five different styles of

40:50

relationships Three are more healthy two are

40:52

more unhealthy But something

40:54

I just want to draw attention to the

40:56

specifics of it aren't so important here But

40:59

there are three different kinds of relationships that they

41:01

put in the healthy category One

41:03

of them is conflict avoiding another one

41:05

is sort of more I forget what they call it but it's

41:08

more relational what we're describing kind of like softer

41:10

and more validating I don't think it actually might

41:13

be validating But the the

41:15

third one the third one's called like

41:17

volatile. Yeah, basically. There's a lot of

41:19

engagement There's a lot of not

41:22

necessarily arguing but Conversations

41:24

become debates very rapidly. It's kind of what

41:26

I do with my family Yeah, where we

41:28

just get into it. We really like exploring

41:30

an idea and like sometimes Yeah, we start

41:32

arguing with each other, but we're laughing the

41:35

whole time We're having a grand old time

41:37

as we're doing it but to somebody on the outside it

41:39

might look like a debate Yeah has broken. I looked that

41:41

way to you a little bit certainly it

41:43

still kind of does. Oh, yeah I

41:45

haven't gotten there yet. I I'm sitting there going.

41:48

Oh my god This feels

41:50

horrible. Is this like what's happening

41:52

right now? Like this feels like an argument,

41:54

but everybody's laughing Yeah, this is I'm in

41:56

the uncanny valley. What's going on? But it

41:58

it totally works for

42:00

us and everyone's quite content as near as

42:03

I can tell, at least everyone's quite content

42:05

with that way of being. And there's a

42:07

lot of positive rapport, lot of

42:09

positive emotion, and there's not a lot

42:11

of hostility or contempt or the other

42:15

salient negative emotions that the governments highlight. And

42:17

I just wanna pull that out to give

42:19

an example of something that's a little bit different

42:21

than what we've talked about so far, but that

42:23

can still really work for people. Right,

42:26

and if you think about it,

42:29

anger and passion are really close with each other.

42:32

And some couples really thrive on

42:34

that energy. But I think

42:36

part of the reason why it thrives is that they're

42:40

able to take that force and

42:42

go, we're coming together to solve

42:44

this problem. We are a team

42:47

and how do we fix this? We

42:49

might have some debates going back and forth. I

42:52

might say something, but like, most

42:56

of that tension and power is

42:58

moving in force, is moving towards,

43:01

this is the conflict, how do we solve this

43:03

conflict? And that actually

43:05

sows the couple closer together because

43:08

they're taking maybe more natural attributes

43:10

that they have and

43:12

they're coming together to solve a problem. We're

43:15

getting toward the end of the conversation, toward

43:17

the end of the episode. And

43:20

I would love to leave people with

43:23

some very direct things

43:25

here. Mm-hmm. And so if you're comfortable talking

43:27

about it, what I would love is

43:30

one thing that you think that

43:33

you do very differently now than you

43:36

did at the beginning of our relationship

43:38

that's affected it in a positive way.

43:42

I have really set

43:44

down my protection around pleasing. I'm

43:46

not as preoccupied with pleasing you

43:48

or being nice. I'm

43:54

more leaning into compassion. and

44:00

kindness and kind of

44:02

being okay if you're a little frumpy or

44:05

upset, you know? Sometimes the

44:07

dog's got to cry it out. Yeah.

44:09

A little bit, sometimes I'm just in mood, yeah. Yeah. And

44:13

within that, that requires me

44:15

to attune to myself, regulate

44:18

myself and trust

44:20

that this little

44:22

moment is not

44:24

a threat to our attachment, it's not

44:27

a threat to our relationship. In fact,

44:29

it helps support the relationship because I'm

44:31

giving you space, I'm giving you room,

44:34

and I'm also showing you that I

44:36

can hold your rage, I can hold

44:38

your anger, that I'm not a wimp,

44:41

I'm not a wisp that's gonna fall

44:43

over. Yeah. And when it's

44:45

appropriate, I'm gonna call you in, to

44:48

be like, hey, did

44:51

you hear how that sounds? Or

44:54

hey, you wanna try again? Totally.

44:59

Yeah, I think it's so interesting how you

45:01

set up a difference

45:03

there between kindness and pleasing.

45:06

Because they can kind of feel like they're

45:09

next door neighbors to each other. And do

45:11

you wanna take a second and kind of peel that apart

45:14

a little bit? Yeah, so pleasing

45:16

is I will put on the

45:18

mask, I will front the part

45:21

that you like. I

45:23

will agree with you, I

45:25

will appease this part of you that's

45:27

rolling in, oh yes, absolutely, you're so

45:29

right. I'll be the one that falls

45:31

on the sword. It's

45:34

a little bit in that fawning

45:36

kind of place. But

45:39

I'm trying to appease you, I'm

45:41

trying to move myself in a

45:43

way, or form myself in a

45:45

way, so that it's

45:48

easier for me to be with you.

45:50

That's really the context. Yeah. But

45:52

that's not kind, you

45:55

know? Because something important may never be

45:57

revealed because I'm doing all of this.

46:00

this internal work for you. What

46:02

is kinder is allowing you to witness the

46:05

impact that behavior has on me, even

46:08

if I don't like it. Or

46:10

in other times, me kind of going a little

46:13

bit more firm or standing in

46:15

to, again, hold

46:18

up my end of the relationship to be

46:20

like, I'm gonna be a mirror for you

46:22

so that you get to look at this. I'm

46:25

taking responsibility for my stuff, but also,

46:29

yeah. We're looking at you

46:31

too. And I think that doing that

46:33

maybe counterintuitively has given me an experience

46:35

of you as being more sturdy. Yeah.

46:38

And more, I don't

46:40

feel like I need to be

46:43

over-regulated as much, because I don't

46:45

need to be as concerned about whether or

46:47

not, I mean, and look,

46:49

I think that part of it is my

46:51

disposition is I'm not a very explosive person

46:53

or something like that. No, absolutely not. We're

46:56

talking about a- Yeah, yeah, I

46:59

mean, the range of intensity here is like

47:01

from a one to a four by a

47:03

large, that's my big range, right? But

47:06

I can go there and

47:08

be confident that it's not gonna overwhelm you.

47:10

It's that you're gonna be able to do

47:12

that, because sometimes we just need to express

47:14

ourselves. Sometimes I'm just feeling pissy about

47:16

something and I gotta just get it out of

47:18

my system. And it's

47:21

the getting out of the system that

47:23

resolves the problem. There's not an actual

47:25

problem here. There's just some energy that's

47:27

built up in the system that needs

47:29

to be released. Yep. Yeah. And can

47:31

your partner hold that with you? Like,

47:33

are we able to be with it

47:36

together? Yeah. One piece that

47:38

I wanna just say before we close

47:41

is that I've really come

47:43

to understand that love is a

47:45

choice. And it's not

47:48

like, I met you, well,

47:51

I might break the veil here, but it's

47:53

not like I met you and

47:56

immediately it was like, I am madly,

47:58

deeply in love with this person. And

48:01

I mean, you were pretty great from the start, but

48:05

it was that I made

48:07

a choice. I

48:09

would choose to love you, even

48:12

if that meant at

48:14

some point, our relationship would end or

48:17

whatever. And I

48:19

feel like that's what has really allowed

48:22

me to experience such

48:24

a nourishing relationship in the form

48:26

that we have it, was

48:28

because I didn't fall

48:31

into the trap of the princess in

48:33

the high tower and these

48:35

feelings are just gonna come. It was

48:37

an active practice to love

48:39

you. And

48:41

I think that's what makes a relationship

48:43

special is that that's my agreement to

48:45

you and every day I

48:48

practice loving you. Yeah, well, for

48:50

starters, likewise. And

48:52

I think you're highlighting, in

48:54

some ways, the conditional nature of relationships.

48:58

That's an active choice you're making. You

49:00

can choose not to not do that. That's

49:02

up to you. That's up to everyone

49:05

who's listening. It's all okay. You get

49:07

to be a choice. And that

49:09

choice gives you freedom. It gives you freedom and

49:11

it gives you control. If

49:13

you're just a prisoner to waiting

49:15

around, hoping

49:18

that you suddenly feel that way one day, that's

49:21

embracing a lot of luck. That's embracing a lot

49:23

of random chance. The more that we're able to

49:25

kind of claim agency in life and

49:28

take more responsibility for our outcomes, the better those

49:30

outcomes tend to be. I

49:32

did want to also answer that question that

49:34

I asked you earlier that way you've changed

49:36

that has benefited the relationship. Definitely

49:39

the first thing that I said early

49:41

on in the episode about relaxing around

49:43

rigidity, huge one for sure. Either

49:46

tied for first place with that or

49:48

maybe even in some ways more important.

49:51

But I think they kind of go hand in hand is I

49:54

essentially did not really

49:56

express wants and needs.

50:00

in the first half of our relationship.

50:02

When I did, it was

50:05

in a framework of, I'm

50:08

disappointed or bothered by what is

50:10

not happening as opposed to what

50:12

I would like if it did

50:14

happen. And I think that's a

50:16

big way that I've changed my

50:18

communication around my wants that

50:20

has been super beneficial for

50:22

us. It has also required way more,

50:26

it's also been a long slope process and it's required

50:29

a lot more vulnerability as we were talking about than

50:32

I've typically displayed inside of my relationships. And

50:35

I think it's one of the reasons that

50:37

things have ended up going really well for

50:39

us is because we've both become much more

50:41

comfortable with that expression of what we want.

50:43

Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. And before

50:46

I felt like I

50:48

was in a dark room having to feel

50:51

around, man, what does this man want? What

50:53

does he need? You know? And

50:56

then I'd be like, is this it? And you'd

50:58

be like, yeah. And I'm like, yeah, you know,

51:00

I was kind of lost in it. And so

51:02

it's been really refreshing because, oh,

51:04

I can do that. Like,

51:07

yeah, no problem. You know, I

51:09

like to be a dog with a job. Dog with

51:11

a job, man, dog with a job. Yeah,

51:14

I wonder how to close this. This has been like

51:16

a really wide range of conversation. We've explored a lot

51:18

of different things. I felt really great about it just

51:20

because I like talking with you about this sort of

51:22

stuff. I hope that people got some

51:25

value out of it. This is a, we

51:27

were a little bit fuzzier with

51:29

the exact topic. We just wanted to talk

51:31

about relationships and what we find helpful inside

51:33

of them, which maybe led to

51:35

a slightly more, slightly less like bullet pointy episode

51:37

than normal. If you'd like this kind of thing,

51:40

please let us know. We'll definitely do more of

51:42

it. Or if you would

51:44

like things that are formatted in a slightly

51:46

tighter way more, great. Please tell us that

51:48

too. Is there anything that you want to just

51:50

add at the end here, babe? Or anything you think

51:52

we should talk about for five minutes? I

51:55

think one piece is

51:58

that it's important that you like your partner. Yeah,

52:01

jeez. It's really difficult when you don't like

52:03

them. To open up part of what you're

52:06

saying there, I think that a lot

52:08

of people, they say, I

52:10

really love this person. But

52:13

you look at how they act and it doesn't

52:15

seem like they like them that much. They might

52:18

love them, but man, do you actually enjoy being

52:20

around them on a day-to-day basis. And it's

52:23

just shocking how rare that is,

52:25

I think. Yeah. I just think

52:27

it's important that you like your

52:30

partner, that you like the person you're

52:32

in a relationship with, that

52:35

life is too short in some ways

52:38

to try to shift

52:41

ourselves to be with

52:43

people that fundamentally either were

52:46

incompatible or we just don't like each

52:48

other very much. And

52:50

a piece of what you're saying, I think, is

52:52

that you like the person you are when

52:54

you're in a relationship with that person.

52:57

Do they make you feel small? Do they make you

52:59

feel grand and spacious? Do they make you

53:01

feel smart? Do they make you feel dumb? Again,

53:05

to go back to the very beginning, a lot

53:07

of this is about self-awareness. Are you

53:09

feeling these ways, maybe these negative or

53:12

painful ways, because of something they're doing

53:14

or because of just being in a relationship is activating

53:16

for you on some level? There are a lot of

53:19

fair answers to that question. But if

53:21

it truly is their behavior that's making you

53:23

feel this way, that's a big red flag.

53:26

You're so smart, Elizabeth. I just like talking with you

53:28

about stuff. Wow.

53:33

I wasn't prepared for that.

53:36

That level of authenticity is just

53:38

kind of like taking my surprise at the end.

53:40

It's totally true. And I think that part of

53:42

the reason that I don't want

53:44

to do the thing people do at the end

53:46

of podcasts with their partner where they just get very gushy about

53:48

it and all of that. Oh, fuck it. But

53:53

I just think that it's so great that we can have

53:55

a conversation about this. And one of the things that people

53:57

often say that they really like about the podcast is that

53:59

they is one of their favorite parts

54:01

is just like getting to see me interact with my

54:04

dad in the way that I do. And because we

54:06

have a great relationship and I hope that for

54:08

people out there who are, you know, maybe

54:12

frustrated with their relationship life in different

54:14

kinds of ways. Good relationships

54:16

are out there. You can be

54:18

functional with another person. It's not all

54:20

just the grimest

54:22

part of the social media underbelly and what

54:24

they show you with relationships. Like you really

54:26

can find ways of being in the world

54:28

with another person that feel very rewarding to

54:30

you.