0:00

When I started podcasting, an online

0:02

store was the furthest thing for

0:04

my mind. Now I'm selling my

0:06

group coaching on the regular and

0:08

it is just so easy. All

0:11

because I use Shopify. I'm

0:15

on this journey with me. Each week when you join

0:17

me, we are going to chase down

0:19

our goals, overcome adversity and set you

0:21

up for a better tomorrow. Hi

0:27

and welcome back. I'm so excited

0:29

for our guests this week. Dr.

0:32

Judy Ho, PhD, ABPDN is a

0:34

triple board certified and licensed clinical

0:36

and forensic neuropsychologist, tenured associate professor

0:39

at Pepperdine University and author of

0:41

Stop Self Sabotage, an avid researcher

0:43

and two time recipient of the

0:46

National Institute of Mental Health Services

0:48

Research Award. Dr. Judy maintains a

0:50

private practice where she specializes in

0:53

comprehensive neuropsychological assessments and expert witness

0:55

work. She's often called on by

0:57

the media as an expert psychologist and

0:59

is sought after for public speaking for

1:01

universities, businesses and organizations. Dr. Judy

1:03

received her bachelor's degree in psychology

1:06

and business administration from UC Berkeley

1:08

and her master's and doctorate from

1:11

SDSU UCSD joint doctoral program in

1:13

clinical psychology. Dr. Judy, thank you

1:15

so much for being here. Oh,

1:18

thank you so much Heather. And so

1:20

excited to join you. Thank you so

1:22

much for having me on your podcast.

1:25

Okay. I want to get into your

1:27

new book, The New Rules of Attachment.

1:29

And I want to start here for

1:31

anyone listening that's saying attachment. What is

1:33

attachment? You know, like, why do I even

1:35

care? Yeah, well, it's relevant

1:38

to everybody. It's a universal process that we

1:40

all go through. Our first attachment bonds as

1:42

human beings are crucial to our survival because

1:44

as babies and as young children, we literally

1:47

could not survive without an adult looking after

1:49

us and at least attempting to meet our

1:51

needs. And it's through these really early relationships

1:53

that we develop our sense of self, who

1:56

we are in this world, what we think

1:58

people are going to do. when we

2:00

say that we have a need or express a

2:02

desire. And also ultimately it goes into whether or

2:05

not you believe you deserve good things in this

2:07

life. Wow, okay, so that

2:09

does impact everybody. And I will

2:11

tell you, I was a psych

2:13

major a million years ago, right?

2:15

And so super familiar with the

2:17

impact of our childhood on our

2:19

lives, but I never really stopped

2:21

to think about that there were

2:23

these different attachment styles and that

2:25

it's universal and that this could

2:27

actually be something if I could

2:29

educate myself on that I could

2:31

empower myself more at work in

2:34

personal relationships forever and understand myself

2:36

better. So I'm so grateful you

2:38

wrote this book and brought my

2:40

attention to this. I started with

2:42

taking your quiz, which was incredible.

2:44

I'm gonna link your quiz for

2:46

everybody in the show notes. It

2:48

was frustrating, it was eye-opening and

2:50

it freaked me out because you

2:53

nailed it. And how many quizzes like this have

2:55

you gone through? And like, what are you seeing

2:57

when people take the quiz? I

2:59

think that people usually have a pretty significant

3:01

reaction to the quiz because maybe they thought

3:03

that they knew themselves or that perhaps they

3:05

understood how their attachment style was manifesting. And

3:07

I think through the quiz they're thinking, oh

3:09

my gosh, it's not just my romantic relationships.

3:11

I can see this showing up in different

3:13

areas of my life. A lot

3:16

of people also have this reaction that, well, I

3:18

thought that I was just one attachment style, but

3:20

actually once I looked at the quiz, actually it

3:22

was a combination of two styles. And that's actually

3:24

very common and something that people don't usually know

3:26

about themselves. And so I think that some of

3:28

the times people have told me that it was

3:30

really helpful for them to understand how attachment can

3:32

show up for them at work, in

3:34

their personal goal pursuits, in their friendships,

3:36

in their family relationships, in addition to

3:39

romantic relationships, and also most importantly in

3:41

their sense of self, how good they

3:43

feel about themselves and their self-esteem. One

3:46

of the reasons I love your new book

3:48

is because not only do you explain in

3:51

detail each one of the different attachment styles,

3:53

but when you, through the quiz, figure out

3:55

what you are because I wasn't sure what

3:57

I would be, right? And once you figure.

3:59

that out, you can go to that portion

4:01

of the book, read about

4:04

your attachment style. And then

4:07

my favorite part is that you share how

4:09

to heal it. And I'm on a personal

4:11

journey to heal myself to the highest level

4:14

that I can and reach the best version

4:16

of me while I'm on this planet for

4:18

sure. I'm so here for it. And this

4:20

is something this is work I've never done

4:23

and information I've never really accessed. Can you

4:25

tell us a little bit about some of

4:27

the journeys people are having as they are

4:29

doing this work? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I

4:32

think that mostly attachment really affects the foundation

4:34

of how we talk to ourselves, our self

4:36

talk. So when people struggle with negative self

4:39

talk, they oftentimes don't realize that the root

4:41

of that is attachment wounds that haven't been

4:43

resolved. And so I think a

4:45

lot of the transformation that happens with my clients

4:48

starts with recognizing that they have this negative self

4:50

talk that is just so pervasive, that's

4:52

causing all of this chaos and problems in

4:54

their lives. It's causing self sabotage, it's causing

4:56

them to feel bad about themselves, to struggle

4:58

with depression and anxiety. And that once they

5:01

understand where the roots are and learning to

5:03

have a more balanced self talk, I mean,

5:05

you're still going to have negative self talk

5:07

sometimes, it's just obviously very, very normal for

5:09

human beings to sometimes have our thoughts be

5:11

somewhat catastrophic or even demeaning to ourselves. But

5:13

it's really about removing those most painful pieces

5:15

of it. And why is that happening? And

5:18

why do you believe that you don't deserve

5:20

good things? Or why do you think you

5:22

have to behave in a certain way to

5:24

get love and care and support from other

5:26

people once they're able to release those types

5:28

of expectations and understand where they're coming from?

5:30

That's when they see the cascade of positive

5:32

outcomes in the different areas of their lives.

5:35

So I think we all understand

5:38

how attachment can show up for us

5:40

in our personal romantic lives, right? I

5:42

mean, that seems kind of

5:44

obvious, like you're either the clingy person

5:46

or you're the person pushing people away,

5:48

right? So we all have our own

5:51

understanding of that. But how does something like attachment

5:53

show up at work? Well, attachment

5:55

can show up at work because

5:57

when you have an insecure attachment

5:59

style, you're driven. by different motives

6:01

in terms of survival or thriving

6:03

in that world. So people with

6:06

avoidant attachment tend to be sort

6:08

of really focused in on their

6:10

achievements, essentially doing the best that

6:12

they can at their job, but

6:14

kind of at the cost of

6:16

any kind of personal relationships or

6:18

collegial relationships. They can struggle with

6:20

delegation. They can struggle with working

6:22

collaboratively in teams. And when

6:24

they do have stressors, when they do have

6:26

problems at work, instead of actually enlisting the

6:28

help of people around them who could assist,

6:30

they just end up going into themselves

6:33

in withdrawing, which of course actually holds

6:35

them back from more success at work.

6:38

And then somebody with anxious attachment, they're more

6:40

likely to predicate all of their behaviors on

6:42

how somebody else might be thinking about them,

6:45

whether it's a colleague or a supervisor, trying

6:47

to do the guesswork of, well, what do

6:49

they really mean by that statement? Or having

6:51

to have a little bit more hand holding,

6:54

needing more validation before they move forward. And

6:56

of course that can get in the way

6:58

of them having a better workplace environment,

7:01

as well as being able to

7:03

achieve their goals in their career if

7:05

they continue to behave in those ways. We

7:08

a different guest each week. Hang

7:11

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slash confidence So

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the minute I hear stuff like this, I'm like, oh

11:19

I want to go fix them I want to help

11:22

them. Is that a natural response or like best? I

11:24

know that's not the answer because i'm not a doctor

11:26

I'm not you but what is the best way once

11:28

you have this information to empower it to do something

11:30

good with it? Yeah, you know,

11:32

I think that of course, you know you

11:34

being in the helping profession you caring about

11:36

people That's going to be your natural inclination

11:38

It's like let me try to fix this

11:40

issue But I think that for

11:43

a lot of people who are struggling with

11:45

attachment or if they see it in somebody

11:47

that they care about It's really about understanding

11:49

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11:51

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welcome. But

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you know, in real time, that is so much harder because life is

32:57

happening and

33:00

you're going

33:06

well at work or maybe you're not feeling well,

33:08

or maybe you have a family member that's ill

33:10

and there's all of these stressors outside. I know

33:12

that my son is 16 and he'll be the

33:14

first one to say to me, you know, clearly

33:17

you have not been having a good day. I

33:19

can tell. And it's kind of holding that mirror

33:21

up to you to say, Oh, wait a minute.

33:23

I'm responding right now in ways. I'm not being

33:25

thoughtful around. I'm just reacting. And I know that's

33:28

when I'm at my worst. So what can you

33:30

do when you start realizing that you're trying to

33:32

control everything in a moment that makes no sense?

33:35

Yeah, I think that it's okay to kind of

33:37

recognize, Hey, you're human like this happened. And then

33:40

have an honest conversation with your child again,

33:42

in an age-appropriate way and say, Hey, you

33:44

know what? Like mama lost her cool a

33:46

little bit there. She's very, very stressed out,

33:48

but then also making it clear that, you

33:51

know, you're going to solve that problem for yourself,

33:53

right? Like not letting them become the parentified children

33:55

to solve your problems or fix your emotions, but

33:57

basically admitting, Hey, I'm having a bad day. So

34:00

I'm sorry if I lost my cool for a little

34:02

bit there, but don't worry, mama's gonna think about some

34:04

ways that she's gonna feel better and she will feel

34:07

better soon. You know, I think that that's really important

34:09

because sometimes kids will just take on that responsibility. Like,

34:11

oh, my mom told me that she's having a bad

34:13

day. Like, is that my fault? Should I be fixing

34:15

it? So it's just important for them to know, yes,

34:18

I'm having a bad day. Like, obviously that's apparent, so

34:20

hiding it wouldn't really help and it's important to talk

34:22

about it. But at the same time,

34:24

it's not your fault and I will try to save it

34:26

for myself. One of the things

34:28

that I remember having a chaotic childhood, which

34:30

I did, and then as I was a

34:33

teenager, seeing my friends who didn't have chaotic,

34:35

who had more like the picture perfect, you

34:37

know, parents married, loved the child so much,

34:39

supported them, were always there to encourage them

34:41

and help them. But then what I would

34:44

see, when I was younger, I

34:46

would feel very jealous. Like, why didn't I get

34:48

a family situation like this? Cut to, as an

34:50

adult, one of the

34:52

gifts I was given was resiliency as a

34:54

child. So when you're older, things don't seem

34:57

that challenging when you are faced with difficult

34:59

times. When I look back at my friends

35:01

who grew up in those idyllic situations, very

35:04

different attachment styles, of course, that

35:06

now as adults, when they're confronted with

35:08

really difficult things, like losing a parent

35:10

or, you know, losing a spouse or

35:12

whatever it may be, the

35:14

response is so incredibly different. Do

35:16

you see that the different attachment

35:18

styles each has their own pro

35:20

and con? Oh, absolutely. I

35:23

think that so many people just always think

35:25

about and harp on the problematic

35:27

aspects of each of the insecure attachment styles. But

35:29

actually, there are pros to all of them

35:31

too, you know? So I think that it's also

35:33

important to kind of honor yourself for where

35:35

you're at. Maybe you're not securely attached right now.

35:37

You can be if that's what you want

35:39

to do and want to put in the work.

35:42

But there are some pros to each of

35:44

the styles. And so disorganized attached, you know,

35:46

those are the people who are like constant

35:48

surveillance specialists. They're always going to be watching

35:50

out to make sure that no one's in

35:52

danger. Like they're very heightened all the time.

35:55

And as a result of them being in fight or

35:57

flight all the time, the positive is, well, they're always

35:59

watching. can

40:00

see the shift now or like I have a new

40:02

understanding or like I know what to do the next

40:04

time I feel distressed like this. And

40:06

so those shifts are going to encourage

40:08

you to continue so that those changes

40:10

become bigger and more persistent over time,

40:13

but they are designed for you to

40:15

recognize, oh, there's power in this right

40:17

after you do them. As

40:20

you begin to understand yourself more and more

40:22

and educate yourself on the various attachment styles,

40:24

are there certain styles that should not be

40:26

partners in business together, should not be in

40:28

a relationship together? Like what are your thoughts

40:30

on that? Yeah, you know, I think that

40:33

most people, if they're willing to at least

40:35

just recognize what's leading to people that they're

40:37

in relationships with in partnership with being triggered,

40:39

you can really work with every single style.

40:41

It's when you don't have that understanding that

40:43

you're like, well, forget it. I'm going to

40:45

throw up my hands because like this isn't

40:48

working. You can work on it

40:50

as long as you even just have the

40:52

recognition even before you start the healing process.

40:54

So I absolutely think that everybody can be

40:56

in relationship with another person in a partnership

40:58

with another person as long as you just

41:00

have the willingness to actively listen to what's

41:02

going on with them. Well, that

41:04

in this society, that's a big one. Being

41:07

willing to actively listen, that is so,

41:09

so, so important. Being willing to do

41:11

the work and be open-minded. So where

41:13

can everybody get the book? Well,

41:15

everybody can get the book at anywhere where books

41:17

are sold. Most people like to get it on

41:19

Amazon, but it is in a variety of places.

41:21

You can go to my website too, where there

41:24

is that quiz that we were just discussing, and there's also

41:26

more links for where you can buy the book too. And

41:29

what's your website? It's drjudyho.com. Guys,

41:31

check out this quiz, take the quiz.

41:33

I'm making my son take the quiz

41:35

tonight for sure. It is so eye-opening

41:37

and interesting to go through the process.

41:39

And I think the whole thing took

41:41

five minutes. Yeah, it doesn't take that

41:43

long as long as you're willing to

41:45

sit down and obviously be honest with

41:47

yourself as you're taking the quiz, but

41:50

it's cool because it hits on all these different areas of your

41:52

life. So it's also a way to understand

41:54

and to see, well, where is attachment wreaking

41:57

the most havoc? Like maybe it's not

41:59

in certain areas and you just have to. focus on some of the other ones.

42:01

Well, I want everybody to get the

42:04

book. It's the new rules of attachment,

42:06

how to heal your relationships, re-parent your

42:08

inner child and secure your life vision

42:11

by Dr. Judy. I'm so

42:13

grateful that you're here. I'm so grateful for

42:15

the work that you're doing to open everybody's

42:17

eyes, including mine, to our own shortcomings and

42:19

how we can embrace it and heal it.

42:21

Thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much,

42:23

Heather. It was great to talk to you. All right,

42:25

guys, until next week, keep creating your confidence. You know I

42:27

will be. I'm gonna make

42:29

the world over again. I decided to

42:32

change that dynamic. I didn't know I'd

42:34

fail out. I couldn't be more excited

42:36

for what you're gonna hear start learning

42:39

and growing. Innevitably, something will happen. No

42:42

one succeeds alone. You

42:44

don't stop and look around once in a while. You

42:46

can miss it. I'm on this journey with me.

42:50

This episode is brought to you by the Yap

42:52

Media Podcast Network. I'm Halataha, CEO

42:54

of the award-winning digital media empire, Yap

42:56

Media, and host of Yap Young and

42:58

Profiting Podcast, a number one entrepreneurship and

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and profit. On Young and Profiting Podcast,

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