0:00

This episode contains sensitive

0:02

topic discussions, including racism

0:04

and violence. Listener discretion

0:06

is advised. This

0:10

is a Global Player original podcast.

0:21

Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure, a

0:23

podcast project conceived exclusively to let me

0:26

spend more time with interesting people than

0:28

I would ever be able to do

0:30

on the radio show. This

0:32

week's guest, Nick Lells, the Chief

0:35

Executive of Hope Not Hate, the

0:37

UK's largest anti-racism and anti-extremism movement,

0:39

welcome. Hello. It's a weird one,

0:41

this, for me, because

0:43

there's obviously an awful lot of ground

0:45

to cover. A lot of the work

0:47

that you do hinges upon secrecy, hinges

0:49

upon covert operations, albeit

0:51

that you oversee rather than

0:54

conduct them yourself so

0:56

much. And I don't want to

0:58

do anything in the course of this

1:01

conversation that kind of exposes you or

1:03

your organization too much. Now, I know

1:05

you're perfectly capable of deciding what

1:07

questions you're going to answer and what questions

1:09

you're not going to answer, but it's called

1:11

Full Disclosure, this podcast, and you can't really

1:13

do Full Disclosure, can you? Not least because

1:15

of threats that you face on a personal

1:17

and familial level from some of the people

1:19

that you have exposed over

1:22

the years. Yeah, I guess over the years

1:24

you get used to kind of

1:26

putting up a guard, so you get used

1:28

to saying certain things and you get used

1:30

to holding certain things back. But I have

1:32

to say that this is probably the first

1:34

podcast or first interview about myself. Yeah. You

1:36

know what I mean? I mean, obviously- As

1:38

opposed to the work. Yeah, yeah, we speak

1:40

about the organization or whatever, but- Well, thank

1:42

you. So, yeah. But we'll begin at the

1:44

beginning then. I mean, there's not a lot

1:46

of biographical detail about you out

1:48

there, as you would know, partly as a consequence

1:50

of what you've just described. But I

1:53

guess the most formative experience

1:55

of what your life has

1:57

subsequently been dedicated to probably happened.

2:00

seven years before you were born in

2:02

1961 when your mum came

2:04

here from Mauritius. That's right yeah so she

2:06

like many other people who you know who

2:08

lived who got brought up in the British

2:10

Commonwealth came to seek a better life over

2:13

here so she came with her brothers and

2:15

sisters and you know and I think it

2:17

was her experiences or things

2:19

that happened to her when I was

2:21

very young growing up in Hounslow in

2:23

the kind of 70s that has probably

2:26

shaped what I do now. I mean

2:28

I remember one occasion

2:31

my grandmother and my dad's side used to live

2:33

in Surrey and we didn't have a car in

2:36

those days and we would go to Shepherd's Bush

2:38

to catch the I think it was a 715

2:40

Greenline bus to

2:42

Guildford or something and I remember one day

2:44

you know my mum my sister and I

2:46

were kind of walking to

2:48

the bus stop bus station and then

2:50

she got abused on the street and

2:52

you know that always was

2:55

the exact words it was kind of you know

2:57

it was obviously kind of racist it was kind

2:59

of abusing her sticking two fingers up at her

3:02

whatever and then a couple of years after that

3:05

you know I grew up in a kind of political

3:07

household with a small pea so you

3:09

know we'd always watched the news my parents always

3:11

watched the news and we'd watched the news in

3:13

those days and I remember the National Front party

3:15

political broadcast in 1979. Now I had no concept

3:17

of how small

3:20

or big they were you know but I never

3:22

forget them saying that they would send home people

3:24

who weren't born in Britain within six months of

3:26

winning the election. Now you know at the age

3:28

of 10 or whatever however I was there and

3:31

it was kind of it was a real fear

3:33

it was a fear that my mum was going

3:35

to get dragged and sent home no idea that

3:37

they had like one and a half percent of

3:39

the votes. It's on the telly it's in your

3:41

house. It's there and then you know when I

3:44

was about eight or nine we moved to Shrewsbury

3:46

which was then a kind of a very white

3:48

town lovely place to grow up as a kid

3:50

but you know and I remember at school in

3:52

the early 1980s there was kind of the the

3:54

British movement which was even obviously more hard line

3:56

than the National Front said that they were going

3:59

to have a march in Shrewsbury. Shrewsbury and you

4:01

know a lot of the kind of lads

4:03

at school You know in the kind of

4:05

who involved in gangs decided to kind of

4:07

identify with the racism and everything and yeah

4:10

And again, it's like, you know, I don't

4:12

particularly look dark or whatever But it was

4:14

an absolute fear of mine, you know, we

4:16

used to go on holiday I'd get tan

4:18

very very easily very very very quickly. I

4:20

would sit inside the tent I've the tender

4:22

worried about being dark skin and then and

4:24

then get an abuse Yeah,

4:26

and it's kind of you know

4:29

And it kind of haunted me in

4:31

a way and some that's something Yeah, look back now and

4:33

some of it was a logical but that's how I felt

4:35

at the time So I get

4:37

that and it becomes obviously quite a big you

4:39

don't realize it at the time It becomes quite

4:41

a big part of who you are I just

4:43

want to know a little bit more about Nick

4:45

who who wasn't becoming racially conscious I mean what

4:47

would do were you good at school? Did you

4:50

like school? Were you a good student? No, I

4:52

wasn't actually I kind of Partly

4:54

I had quite protruding teeth

4:57

So my nickname at secondary school was was

4:59

was bugs II bugs II I was gonna

5:02

say goofy Yeah, and and and you know,

5:04

and it was kind of I needed glasses,

5:06

right? But obviously I don't I didn't want

5:08

to have glasses and goofy teeth So

5:10

I didn't have glasses right so I couldn't

5:12

see the board Oh bless so I would

5:14

kind of act up in class to kind

5:16

of excuse not being able to see anything

5:19

right and the teachers know

5:21

did I

5:23

kind of glided through I mean, you know,

5:25

I kind of and I left school with

5:27

I mean those days It was all levels.

5:29

I left school with two old levels. Yeah,

5:31

because I'd literally you know, not engaged not

5:33

engaged No, I haven't employed. I love sport.

5:35

Yeah and cricket especially crickets But you know,

5:37

but then in those days you tend to

5:39

find that if you're into some sport you're

5:41

into most of them Hmm, so I still

5:43

love playing sport, but I wasn't very good

5:45

academically. So what how did you end up

5:47

at university then? So So

5:50

I went to my local tech college. I wasn't

5:52

really shows pretty yeah I wasn't I wasn't allowed

5:54

into the sixth form because I think I was

5:56

one of four people from the school not that

5:58

in six that hurt? I

6:00

mean because you've got that weird dichotomy now of

6:03

the person in class pretending to be taking the

6:05

Mickey out of everything but to be one

6:07

of four people who's not allowed into the sixth

6:09

one that's got a smarter bit. Yeah

6:11

but I mean I think it was

6:14

at this time that my parents were

6:16

splitting up and it's like I think

6:18

for me it was I

6:20

found it kind of hard to face

6:23

up to some of this as well so for example I

6:25

lied about how many O-levels I got to other people and

6:27

to my family I thought I might have four but of

6:29

course in truth but they published them all in the local

6:31

paper so when it said two I

6:33

must be there over there. Did you get away with

6:35

it? I think I

6:37

think they probably were surprised when I said

6:40

four but I went to local tech and

6:42

that was actually I mean a it was

6:44

a good experience I started doing subjects I

6:46

liked doing I had quite a bad stutter

6:48

when I was young. Gosh. When

6:51

I was at primary school in London I had to

6:53

go to speak therapist once a week and

6:55

I wasn't hugely confident and I

6:57

mean even now when I'm really nervous

6:59

or really tired you know I start

7:01

struggling and there's certain words I know

7:03

that there's certain words that I'm going

7:05

to struggle on so I think about

7:07

other ways of saying it I break

7:09

a word down to two and say

7:11

it very quickly. Gosh. So you know

7:13

words begin with M N W

7:16

sometimes. Yeah quite tiring. Yeah and I

7:18

think you know probably you know you

7:20

didn't realize it at the time but

7:22

low self-esteem low confidence and actually it

7:25

was only that only really changed when

7:27

I was kind of 16 17 years

7:30

old and I began to get involved

7:32

in politics and a I found something

7:34

I really enjoyed but you know I

7:36

found some confidence in public speaking and

7:39

I started doing subjects that actually I

7:41

quite enjoyed doing and again I wasn't

7:43

particularly very good academically but I did

7:45

well because I was doing subjects I

7:47

enjoyed and hence I went to. Did

7:49

you talk to your mum about ethnicity

7:51

did you have conversations about stuff? Not

7:53

not not the time years later because

7:55

I remember when I I mentioned it

7:57

to her not that long ago

8:00

actually. I mean she's moved

8:02

back to Mauritius now and both her

8:04

and my dad were kind of quite

8:06

surprised about it. They remember me

8:08

sitting in the tent and

8:11

on holidays I'd say I don't like the

8:13

sun. But they didn't know why. You know

8:15

and I'd just make an excuse. I suppose

8:17

given what you've just told us about your

8:19

teeth and your spectacles and

8:21

your stutter, the idea of adding

8:24

something else to the list of things that

8:26

you could be picked on for becomes much

8:28

more acute doesn't it? And I was quite

8:31

small. I mean I remember my final year

8:33

at school when I was 15 I was

8:35

only five foot one. And so it's kind

8:38

of you know I wasn't a big lad so

8:40

I felt vulnerable anyway. Luckily it wasn't a violent

8:42

school there wasn't much kind of physical trouble but

8:44

it was a school where people teased each other

8:47

a lot and were very sarcastic and everything. But

8:49

you know I went from a junior school in

8:51

one area town to a secondary school in the

8:53

other so I didn't know any fresh start. And

8:56

of course you know I remember

8:58

this one lad. Everyone had nicknames. And

9:00

I remember this one lad called Beaky

9:04

and he said oh is it okay if we call

9:06

you Bugsy? I mean it was very polite. They asked

9:08

me if it was okay and of course not wanting

9:10

to be left out or picked on. I said yeah

9:12

yeah no it's fine. It's kind of weird because I

9:14

very occasionally see some of these some of the people

9:17

I went to school with and you

9:19

know they say oh alright Bugsy. Well it's an

9:21

affection. I mean it's a nickname. Even though it

9:23

might be built on difference it's

9:25

not said with any viciousness. But you you

9:27

sound like a child who really wanted to

9:29

fit in. Yeah I mean you know I

9:32

had a happy childhood. I had friends. I

9:34

had as I say I did lots of

9:36

sports. I was a widdin' team. Great leveler

9:38

isn't it. You know and you know but.

9:41

When I asked about talking to your mum

9:43

did you talk to her about the abuse

9:45

that you'd witnessed her receiving? Or about your

9:47

fears of a National Front victory

9:49

in 79? Did you have those conversations? Yeah but

9:52

I mean it's kind of I

9:54

mean both mum and dad they couldn't really remember

9:56

them. You know what I mean. I mean there was a kind

9:58

of vague recollection about the National Front. I didn't

10:00

do it at the time. That's what I'm asking.

10:02

You didn't say, mum, I'm really worried you're going

10:04

to get deported. No, no, no. I mean, in

10:07

terms of the National Front political broadcast, I don't

10:09

think I did. I mean, when I raised it

10:11

with them years later, it was kind of news

10:13

to them. Gosh. So you've got this sort of

10:16

quite, it's an inner life that you're describing, really,

10:18

isn't it? You've got this sort of inner fear

10:21

that's born of racism, but it's

10:23

not something you're having explicit conversations

10:25

about with anybody. No. And I

10:27

think, I mean, I'm just thinking

10:29

aloud now, so perhaps I'm totally

10:31

off the mark. But it

10:33

might kind of also

10:35

explain why I kind of have

10:38

been able to do what I've done in later

10:40

life. So I can compartmentalize things. I

10:42

can not be different things to different people, but I

10:44

mean, in the sense of I can put things in

10:46

a box and I don't talk about them outside that

10:49

box. And I've done that all

10:51

my life, you know, and some of it

10:53

I know isn't a particularly great trait, you

10:55

know what I mean? But, but it's effective.

10:57

That's how I've always been. Tell

11:02

me more about this sort of dawning political

11:04

consciousness than around about the sixth form. Yeah.

11:06

So this, this would have been the mid

11:09

eighties. So minor strike, red wedge, you know,

11:11

when lots of young people were kind of

11:13

getting involved in politics. Now, for me, I

11:15

got involved in a couple of things. First

11:17

and more kind of lay putt young, young

11:19

socialists, which was in Shrewsbury. We

11:21

had a lay party of only like 205 people,

11:23

but there were about 50 people and young socialists.

11:25

And it was connected to the scooter club. So

11:27

there were a lot of Northern soul discos. So

11:30

there was a big social side to it. But

11:32

I also got involved in the anti apartheid movement. And

11:35

by that meant I used to hitchhike down

11:37

to London, 16, 17

11:39

years old, either to go on marches

11:41

or sometimes to go outside the South

11:44

African embassy city. Anti apartheid used to

11:46

have a nonstop picket. And I remember

11:49

one occasion I got top, them

11:51

were playing Rangers in the preseason friendly. And

11:53

of course the Scots took over Trafalgar square

11:55

where the South African consulate or embassy was.

11:58

And I remember getting in, getting Headbutted

12:00

by a rangers fan for my troubles. So, you

12:02

know and to your part. I was really close

12:04

I guess because of the racism thing I felt

12:06

that a lot and you know I wasn't involved

12:09

in anything locally, but I traveled to London But

12:11

I got involved in my local Labour Party young

12:13

socialists and we were always a bit kind of

12:17

You know, we were we were young and you

12:19

know kind of this this was dead exciting and

12:21

I think the old like laypipe Oh my god,

12:24

you know, there was more than one election count

12:26

I think that you said and where we were

12:28

escorted out of the hall by the police after

12:32

Some chairs got exchanged for the young tourists who

12:34

were the farmers But you know me I mean

12:36

that was that was fun times It was it

12:39

was good time to be kind of active and

12:41

then then I went to uni but by that

12:43

stage I'd got involved in a left-wing group who

12:45

I'd met at Probably young

12:47

socialist conference or whatever. I wanted to

12:50

go to Leicester to do the football

12:52

hooligan studies Okay, I was an undergraduate

12:54

course. Yeah in the

12:57

sociology department Because

13:01

I was fascinated because it was youth culture,

13:03

you know And a lot of I mean

13:06

I was never involved in that but a

13:08

lot of my friends who I grew up

13:10

with in Shrewsbury always comes everything came ten

13:12

years later than everywhere else and so in

13:14

Shrewsbury It got you know The kind of

13:16

hooligan group got set up in the mid

13:18

80s and I was just fascinated with the

13:21

culture of it Not the violence or

13:23

anything like that and it was a course

13:25

run by sociologist called John Williams I read

13:27

a couple of his books and I was

13:29

just really fascinated but I wanted to go

13:31

there So you've played down your academics, but

13:33

actually You've got

13:35

a curiosity about things O

13:40

level when I retook my level then

13:42

a level but the group that I was in sent

13:44

me to Sheffield They told me to go to Sheffield

13:46

and I obediently went. What do you mean the group?

13:49

Well, I was in a small tropskiest group inside

13:51

the low party and they told me that I should

13:53

go to Sheffield We need someone in Sheffield. Yeah. Well,

13:56

they kind of have a little base. It was one

13:58

of their key areas. So I obediently went

14:00

to Sheffield where I think you met Jerry

14:03

Gable. Yeah so that was probably

14:06

1989 I was kind of drifting out

14:08

of this kind of left-wing group I was

14:10

never interested in the theory I was always

14:12

active I loved activism. Like a cause but

14:15

not an intellectual. Well particularly kind of you

14:17

know 1905 permanent revolution

14:20

or 1917 or this or that or the

14:22

class nature of the Soviet Union I mean

14:24

that never really interested me but

14:26

the kind of social justice

14:28

and racial justice and I met

14:30

Jerry I brought well actually I kind of I

14:33

became a sabbatical in my first year at

14:35

university and I organized a meeting with Jerry

14:37

Gable at Sheffield. I met him. For people

14:40

who don't know the founder and editor of

14:42

searchlights. That's right. That's right and that evening

14:44

after the meeting a few of us kind

14:46

of gathered around and he was staying at

14:49

one of his staying at a friend's house

14:51

actually and he kind of

14:53

said oh you know have you thought about setting up a little little

14:56

group and in those days I mean first of

14:58

all anti-fascism there's a lot going on on the

15:00

streets something is much more violent than it is

15:02

now and I was never really

15:05

into all that but he kind of said do

15:07

you want to set up a research group you

15:09

know and we said well what will that involve

15:11

and he said well you know can you get

15:13

one of your friends to join the British National

15:15

Party or whatever and literally three weeks later myself

15:17

and a mate of mine we got someone inside

15:19

the British National Party and then within three three

15:21

four months we had two other people in various

15:23

groups. Why did you not do that yourself? Because

15:26

I well first of

15:29

all I was quite well known. Yeah yeah and I

15:32

probably didn't have the kind of courage I mean they

15:34

these were these were quite violent days this was kind

15:36

of combat 18 days and I

15:39

guess it was part I mean look it

15:41

was partly boyzone it was like spies putting

15:43

people inside but I mean you know we

15:45

had some real impact and and I guess

15:48

then when I moved down to London in 93

15:50

I began volunteering at searchlight and I did a lot

15:53

of you know and and that was the work I

15:55

did for several years it was kind of

15:57

running sources you know it was about in

16:00

getting people to infiltrate, turning

16:02

people. And it set the tone for almost

16:04

all that's followed, hasn't it, really? Those

16:07

experiences. We need to remind

16:09

ourselves, or I need to remind you, that

16:12

a lot of the stuff that you have

16:14

been doing for 30 years or more is

16:17

gonna be shocking to some people listening to

16:19

this. They're not gonna know about what has

16:21

happened, what you have contributed,

16:23

what your organization has contributed

16:25

to scuppering, and we'll

16:27

get on to some of the later

16:29

successes that you've enjoyed. But tell us

16:32

about the threat that the British National

16:34

Party posed, because there's a tendency perhaps

16:36

to think of slightly pathetic figures have

16:38

been cut by some of the prominent names,

16:41

like Nick Griffin from that kind of background.

16:43

But this is a sinister and serious threat

16:46

that you were animated

16:48

by. Yeah, I mean, throughout the

16:50

1990s, the

16:52

threat was really physical. There

16:54

were groups like Combat 18 that were moving towards

16:56

terrorism, Blood and Honor, the skinhead group. But it

16:59

was all about- This is white supremacy. Yeah, yeah,

17:01

yeah, yeah, sorry. And it was all about kind

17:03

of physical violence. And in those days, there was

17:05

violence all the time. We

17:07

put people inside, and every week, they're

17:09

coming back with stories about people bragging

17:11

about attacking people, saying who they wanted

17:13

to attack, et cetera. The key thing

17:15

really happened. I mean, we had the

17:17

election of the Labour government in 1997. In

17:20

2001, we had some

17:23

race riots in the north of England, Oldham,

17:25

Burnley, and Bradford. I was on the streets

17:27

in Oldham on the day of the riot

17:29

there. I was on the streets on the

17:31

day of the riot in Bradford. And I think

17:33

a couple of things happened. First of all,

17:35

in all three of those instances, the public

17:38

kind of recollection of those events, they were

17:40

Asian riots, and we called them Asians. But

17:43

they were all preceded by some

17:45

fire right activity, or football hooligan

17:47

activity. And in the case of Oldham, it

17:49

was kind of Combat 18, and

17:51

Burnley, football hooligans, and Bradford,

17:54

Combat 18, National

17:56

Front. And I think two key things happened. First

17:58

of all, I think, particularly for people living in

18:00

London, there was a view that multiculturalism was working.

18:02

And this kind of shattered that illusion because actually

18:04

in the north of England, people were leading parallel

18:07

lives. And there was a lot of kind of

18:10

simmering, distrust, this,

18:12

you know, dislike, even hatred between

18:14

groups, and particularly my young people,

18:16

there was a gang culture, and

18:18

places like Oldham. So I think

18:20

that was one thing. And secondly,

18:23

obviously, a few few months later,

18:25

we had the the 9-11 terrorist

18:27

attack. And suddenly, the kind of

18:29

far right narrative moved from anti-immigration,

18:31

anti-assylum, and probably, you know, racism,

18:33

court racism to anti-Muslim. And suddenly,

18:36

the Asian community became Muslims. All

18:38

of them. Yeah. And as

18:40

a consequence of all that, the British

18:42

National Party, who had been a completely,

18:44

as you say, pathetic peripheral group, suddenly

18:46

started doing well. And in a way,

18:48

despite themselves, you know, and within a

18:51

year or two, they were winning 30-40% of

18:53

the vote in kind of working class estates

18:56

in the north of England. Yeah. So I

18:58

by that stage, I mean, I'd already done

19:00

kind of 10-12 years in kind of anti-fascism,

19:02

but it'd been on the research side, which

19:05

had been adequate up until that point. But

19:07

I think for myself, on one or two

19:09

others, we realized that what we were doing

19:11

wasn't enough. And at the

19:13

same time, I think we also

19:16

became quite critical, certainly I became quite

19:18

critical on how, as

19:20

I saw it, the kind of traditional

19:22

anti-racist organizations, anti-Nazi League, anti-racist alliance, how

19:25

they dealt with these groups. Partly, it

19:27

was just about condemning everyone for being

19:29

a racist. And secondly, all

19:31

the demonstrations, all the pro, they're all happening

19:33

in city centers. Yeah. No one was going

19:35

into these communities. And I think, you know,

19:37

it was quite obvious to me, and it

19:39

wasn't, you know, wasn't a real shock that,

19:42

yeah, of course, racism was playing a part

19:44

in it. And there was a kind of

19:46

dislike, either Muslims or immigrants more generally, but

19:48

it was also a cry for help. It

19:50

was also people who felt ignored. And,

19:52

you know, many of the places that

19:54

the BNP did well, I mean, we

19:56

call them left behind communities or whatever,

19:58

Redwall now, but. It was these

20:01

places that were largely one-party towns, Stoke,

20:03

Barking and Dagenham, Burnley, or whatever, where

20:05

there was the Labour Party who had

20:08

really stopped engaging in these communities. These

20:11

communities that were kind of post-industrial, often

20:13

the point of being living there had

20:15

gone. The steel work had gone, the

20:17

coal mining, coal mines had gone, and

20:20

people were doing kind of part-time work,

20:22

night shifts, traveling further and further, and

20:24

the identity of these communities was starting

20:26

to fall apart. And I think that

20:29

for me and a few others, we

20:31

just felt, look, we needed a different approach, and

20:33

we needed aid to treat people with respect, and

20:36

that we needed to actually engage with

20:38

people. Well, that's the big change then,

20:40

is that you are helping,

20:42

you want to help these people

20:44

who are susceptible to this ideology,

20:46

as opposed to shout at

20:49

them. Yeah, I think that, you know- It's

20:51

the difference between protest and policy almost. Totally,

20:53

and I think the thing is, is that

20:55

A, there was often a grain of truth

20:57

in there of frustrations, and

21:00

B, actually, and it continues to be. Policy

21:02

is the only way out of this. You

21:04

know, and I think that if you look

21:06

at the kind of, the whole Brexit thing

21:08

in 2016, that

21:10

was a continued manifestation of this anger.

21:12

It suddenly became a place to articulate

21:14

it, you know? And I think that

21:16

at the time, and you know, there

21:18

was a frustration at the time, but at the time,

21:21

we always knew that all we were doing was holding

21:23

the line, in the hope that

21:25

the political establishment, whether it was Labour, Libdem,

21:27

or whoever, would kind of fill the void.

21:29

And actually, we were lucky that generally,

21:32

the British National Party were quite useless,

21:34

and they were bad at organizing, they

21:36

were bad at elections, they had loads

21:38

of obviously, racist and criminals that we

21:40

could expose. So generally, when it came

21:42

to elections, we can out-organize them. But

21:44

there was always that frustration that all

21:46

we were doing was propping up a

21:48

kind of rubbish system, and

21:51

to a certain extent, that continues to this day. Let's

21:54

go back to the... role

22:00

of informants. This is where

22:02

people who will be familiar with your

22:04

sort of public, with the organization's public

22:06

profile, won't know that much about actually

22:09

getting people into these

22:11

organizations. And some

22:13

people come to you, some people are turned. So

22:15

some people come from where you come from, which

22:18

is you're on a crusade. And some

22:20

people are part of, including some of your colleagues

22:22

at HOPE not HATE, were part of the far

22:25

right and sort of saw the

22:27

error of their way. So what are they

22:29

called kind of, what missions are they on?

22:31

They're trying to find, because some of the

22:33

stuff that's happened recently involves conspiracy to murder,

22:35

it involves all sorts of terror plots. But

22:38

in the early days, what kind of information were

22:40

they bringing back to you? Well, I mean,

22:42

so I mean, across this whole period of

22:45

my activity, I think I've probably dealt with

22:47

either directly or in collaboration with a colleague,

22:50

about 180 people inside these

22:52

different groups. Either, as you say, we

22:55

put in, most of them are people that we've turned.

22:58

In the early days... How do you turn

23:00

someone? I know that there's going to be

23:02

180 different answers to that question, but how

23:04

does it work? What's the process? So I

23:06

mean, it's probably a combination. It's either people

23:09

approach us. And again, they can approach for

23:11

a whole load of different reasons. Yeah, and

23:13

they could be acting in bad faith. They

23:15

could be trying to infiltrate you. Yeah. And

23:17

that has had, well, I mean, that's attempted

23:19

to happen. But either people, they could fall

23:21

out with someone. So they want to dish

23:24

dirt on someone. Either that they have, they've

23:26

realized the error of their ways and they

23:28

come to what they see as kind of

23:30

make amends to kind of think that they

23:32

can offload and then they might stay in

23:34

for a little bit or whatever. Some people

23:36

will literally come to us and say, give

23:38

us 200 pounds and I'll give you... I'll dish it.

23:41

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, so there's

23:43

a whole variety of reasons. In a

23:45

smaller number of cases, we've put people

23:48

inside. And you know, I mean, this

23:50

is incredible. I mean, you know, there's

23:52

one young man who we call Arthur,

23:55

who was inside for 11 years and

23:57

it was during the most violent times,

23:59

you know. I mean he himself, you know,

24:01

he would be mixing around with people in combat

24:03

18, the violent end of the British National Party,

24:05

he got hit in the head with a hammer

24:08

himself. But in that 11 years he went to

24:10

400 meetings, rallies, concerts,

24:12

all written up, all, you know,

24:14

would write up notes about it

24:16

after all catalogued. But he was

24:18

one of the people who identified

24:20

the London nail bomber. David Copeland.

24:22

Yeah. We get to that.

24:25

What motivates someone like Arthur? I mean, what

24:27

is his mission statement, as it were? So

24:29

he was an anti-fascist who read

24:31

about someone who had been an

24:33

informer at Ray Hill, who had

24:35

been an art scene interned. And

24:38

you know, he himself would admit there was a sense

24:40

of adventure there as well. But he felt that as

24:42

an individual, that was the best thing that he could

24:45

do. And what is

24:47

he trying to prevent, if you see what I

24:49

mean? So I think it's

24:51

a combination. One is to get information

24:53

about what people are up to. And

24:55

particularly about criminality and plots and violence.

24:57

And you know, we had someone else

25:00

who was the number three in Combat 18.

25:02

And we literally, me and him, we stopped

25:05

two bombing campaigns, one of which

25:07

was international in nature. We stopped

25:09

a riot, a cricket match two weeks

25:11

after the Olden riots, where 40 Combat

25:13

18 planned to invade the

25:15

England-Pakistan cricket match at Old Trafford with a

25:17

Combat 18 flag to try to entice the

25:19

Pakistan fans on to have a fight on

25:22

the pitch. You know, I mean... How do

25:24

you stop that? So

25:26

in that case, we contacted the police and

25:28

they were all, you know, 41 people were

25:31

arrested as they arrived at the

25:33

turnstiles. Yeah, and

25:35

none of that received any public attention. I was about

25:37

to ask you about that. That must be very frustrating

25:40

because these are just two examples. And

25:42

there's many, many, many more. That must be

25:44

very frustrating. When

25:46

you, especially laterally, when the people that

25:49

you're pitched against tend to

25:51

get quite an easy ride in some corners of the

25:53

British media. Yeah, I mean, I think

25:55

at the time... It's

25:58

also a really good story. It's

26:00

a little confusing that it doesn't go. Totally. I mean,

26:03

I mean, particularly when you're dealing with people

26:05

inside, you have to protect there. I mean,

26:07

like, I mean, Arthur's a classic example. He

26:09

would have been entitled to

26:12

probably half the £70,000

26:14

reward for identifying Copeland.

26:17

He said, no, I want to carry on. I want to

26:19

stay undercover. You know, how

26:21

did that happen? How did he identify?

26:23

Because he knew Copeland

26:26

from his BNP days. Right. And this was

26:28

the incredible thing. The police had no record

26:30

of Copeland being involved in the far right.

26:32

Even though he'd been an activist out in

26:34

East London, been out on public activities, whatever.

26:36

Well, this is a fantastic shorthand for the

26:39

value of the work that you've done, that

26:41

you and your colleagues have done. You're keeping the

26:43

archives that you might have expected the intelligence services

26:45

to have in play. And I think,

26:47

I mean, I think, you know, in recent years, there

26:49

has been a sea change in terms of the violent

26:52

end. But I think

26:54

certainly back then, I mean, they really,

26:57

they really weren't watching this area. And

26:59

I remember I got invited to some

27:01

event. It was one of these secret

27:04

events at Windsor Castle, looking at the

27:06

threats of terrorism over the next 10

27:08

years. And I got invited by the

27:11

organisers. And there was this man there who

27:13

had a, you know, I mean, everyone

27:15

had their name bad, right? And he just

27:17

had the silhouette with a question mark. Like,

27:20

you know, I mean, it's like, anyway,

27:22

he, let's

27:25

just let's say he was a

27:27

senior ranking person in MI5, who

27:29

became even more senior. Okay. I,

27:31

we all broken up into workshops.

27:33

And I was there. And he,

27:35

he probably didn't know who I was.

27:37

But he just went on this diatribe about

27:40

how these liberal interested politicians were making them

27:42

look at the far right. And these were

27:44

just hooligans. And it was just like, you

27:46

know, made it like a couple of us

27:48

were just like looking there. But it was,

27:50

you know, he was angry about it. It

27:53

wasn't, oh, well, look, we've got these other

27:55

threats. And we know this, like, these people

27:57

don't pose a threat. These people are just

27:59

hooligans. liberal politicians, you

28:01

know, and that was the mindset at that

28:04

time. So, so he knew Copeland from his

28:06

DMP day. Yeah, so he'd been active. And

28:08

because we write up records every time they

28:10

go on, you know, one of our sources

28:12

go on a meeting or an event, we

28:15

kind of do a debrief. And literally, you

28:17

know, we had four or five arch lever

28:19

files just full of reports. So so when

28:21

the police put out the CCTV image and

28:23

it was on the front page of the

28:25

Evening Standard, he was in his like he

28:28

was shopping his local supermarket. He saw the

28:30

Evening Standard and he saw, I know that person. Good

28:32

Lord. And, you

28:35

know, in his very humble way, he's going,

28:37

well, I think it's him. I'm not sure, but I

28:39

think it's him. And of course it was. But we

28:41

were able then to go back through our records and

28:44

he attended this meeting, he attended that meeting. This

28:46

was the address we had for him. So, you

28:48

know, we had a catalog, a detailed catalog. And

28:50

as I say, at the time, the police had

28:52

no record of him being involved in the far

28:55

right. So while other people, I think one of

28:57

his workmates rang

28:59

in and gave his name as well, we

29:01

were the only people who made the

29:03

connection with the far right. OK. But I

29:06

mean, you know, but and this this

29:08

story has been told, hasn't it, both

29:10

in the book that you wrote and then

29:12

in the Netflix documentary as well. Yeah.

29:14

So that that level, I suppose,

29:16

a story like that will attract the

29:19

interest because the plot reached fruition. Yeah.

29:21

So it's different from foiling a plot. Yeah.

29:24

Yeah, yeah, totally. And often it's the foiling

29:26

the plots that don't really get told. So,

29:28

for example, there was another case, you know,

29:30

like over the years I've mentioned it in

29:32

passing, but there was a loyalist

29:36

paramilitary who committed one of the worst

29:38

killings of innocent Catholics, got sent to

29:40

prison for life, got let out on

29:43

the Good Friday agreement. He came

29:45

to London to join up with Combat

29:47

18. And this was a

29:49

very serious person that, you know, had been

29:52

involved in the murders of six people. And

29:54

for us, this was just a nightmare, the

29:56

idea that this is going to happen. So

29:58

in that situation. We had a photo of

30:00

him in London and I think

30:03

we gave it to one of the

30:05

Sunday papers, Mail on Sunday or something like

30:07

that, without some of the other story that

30:10

we had, some of the reasons why he

30:12

was there, whatever. Obviously that

30:14

potentially broke his Good Friday agreement, that

30:16

kind of put the spotlight on him.

30:19

He then backed out of whatever he was

30:21

going to do or whatever his kind of

30:23

offer was. So sometimes there are things that

30:25

happen that we can't tell the

30:27

whole story at the time, either because it will

30:30

expose where we got the information

30:33

or it's just some things

30:36

we can't legally prove. We know that there was

30:38

going to be a terrorist. There

30:41

was another occasion when there was going to

30:43

be a meeting of

30:45

Combat 18 key

30:47

leaders from across Europe to

30:49

literally plan an international terrorist

30:52

bombing campaign. And again, we

30:54

tipped off the authorities and

30:57

the Brits who were going

30:59

out there and they were the kind

31:01

of main people in this network got

31:03

stopped at the Austrian-Slovak border because of

31:05

our information. And they got held,

31:08

the meeting then didn't really happen and then they

31:10

got let go. So and again,

31:12

it wasn't something that we could speak about the time,

31:14

but you know. It's

31:17

like a fuse is burning and you're putting out the

31:20

fuse, which is not in and of itself very

31:22

exciting. But if you haven't put the fuse out.

31:25

Yeah. And there are other times where I

31:27

say it's far more mundane, but it can also, you know,

31:29

in a different way. I mean, I

31:31

mean, so at the height of the BMP

31:34

campaign in Barking and Dagenham or as they

31:36

were emerging, they ran an

31:38

election campaign and they'd made this DVD that

31:40

they were circulating to every house. Now housing

31:42

was a big issue. They were talking about

31:44

the lack of affordable housing. Barking

31:47

and Dagenham was the cheapest housing in London. So

31:49

a lot of councils across Europe dumped

31:52

their problem families in Barking and Dagenham

31:54

in private rented accommodation and caused local

31:56

people then couldn't afford housing or whatever.

31:59

And the BMP put out this DVD. And

32:01

it had this woman there with a little

32:03

baby and her father and it was like,

32:05

I can't get a counselor house because of

32:07

all these immigrants and the baby was crying.

32:09

We had someone inside Barking the Dagenham

32:12

BMP who straight away said, well, probably

32:14

there is that baby's crying because it's not hers. And

32:17

actually she lives in North London. So

32:20

within 24 hours, we could get a

32:22

leaflet out, push it back at this and

32:24

say that they're lying. So

32:26

sometimes, it's the criminality. I mean, another time

32:28

and I actually, I look at this as

32:31

one of my biggest kind of successes was

32:33

after the riots, Oldham was like the front

32:35

line. You know, the BMP were really pushing

32:37

in Oldham and I kind of virtually moved

32:39

up there or working there a

32:42

lot of the time. We put three people inside

32:44

Oldham BMP. We knew everything that

32:46

they were doing. We had the canvas returns

32:48

with everything. But then we

32:50

also knew that the deputy organizer

32:53

at the time had to do everyone knew that

32:55

he was dodgy. He didn't quite know how. And

32:58

literally we spent months photographing every meeting. I

33:00

was in the back of a van just

33:02

voting, a building and building it. And then

33:04

we found out that he was not only

33:07

a convicted armed robber with 47 convictions, but

33:10

he'd got conviction for rape. And

33:13

we held on to it until

33:15

three weeks before the council elections.

33:18

And then we dropped it and won the

33:20

Sunday newspapers. And we had a leaflet that

33:22

we handed out around the school gate, basically

33:24

saying, and I'm mean, it was most shocking.

33:27

I look back at it though. It was basically saying many of

33:29

you would have got a leaflet from the

33:31

BMP in the last few weeks. The chances

33:33

are it was handed to you by a

33:36

convicted rapist. And

33:38

then it says that, you know, it ended up saying

33:40

the next time the BMP come to your door, beware,

33:42

you could be staring into the eyes. And

33:45

the thing is that just destroyed them. Not

33:47

only because of that, but rather than saying

33:49

we didn't know, because actually they probably didn't

33:51

know because he kept that secret. They then

33:53

said, Oh, he was clearly a searchlight plant

33:55

to, you know what I mean? And it

33:58

just, it just rolled out. destroyed

34:00

them in Oldham and they've never won

34:02

a council seat in Oldham despite the

34:04

riots the year before. How much danger

34:07

are you in then when you're on

34:09

a manoeuvre like

34:11

that when you're in the van or

34:13

you're watching? Yeah I mean I

34:16

mean I probably did things then I wouldn't

34:18

do now. I remember one particular day it

34:20

was a really hot day and literally myself

34:22

and a photographer we were down to our

34:24

boxes it was like 90 degrees outside

34:26

it was even hotter in the van

34:28

and these people some of them who

34:31

were involved in what the judge

34:33

said triggering the riots that led

34:35

to the Oldham riots hmm were

34:37

literally coming up to the van peering in but

34:39

obviously they couldn't see in fortunately. So you

34:42

know there have been times when either I've I

34:44

say I've gone too far but I put myself

34:46

into situations as I say I wouldn't do that

34:49

now I mean in 2004 was so

34:53

convinced that we had to stop Nick

34:55

Griffin becoming an MEP and we did

34:57

this story about his bodyguard at the

34:59

time who I named

35:01

for it was a gangland hitman and I named

35:03

him for five murders and then I get called

35:05

in by the police to give me an Osborne

35:08

warning and tell me not to go to Liverpool

35:10

or whatever. So

35:12

there's that. So basically that there was a credible

35:14

threat to my life. Yeah.

35:18

And you know at that

35:20

stage I mean I was younger and you

35:22

know a bit blasey about things but I've

35:25

always thought I've had other things

35:27

happen to me and you know whatever but

35:30

I've always thought that that's nothing compared to the

35:32

people who go inside because

35:34

you know I mean I've become a hate figure because

35:36

of what I do and you know my name is

35:38

now known and you know a lot of online

35:41

abuse etc. I

35:43

just gently ignore it all I don't really

35:45

look at it. But that's nothing to if

35:47

any of the people who we have inside

35:50

are found because in a sense that's personal

35:52

trait you know their personal treachery

35:54

and you know and always

35:56

the concern is that innocent

35:59

people. connected to me get then

36:01

caught up in it that's that's far more

36:03

than that would have become more acute yes

36:06

you've got older and you know I mean

36:08

we had a situation literally

36:10

just a few weeks ago where someone was

36:12

sent to prison for four years from among

36:15

other things targeting

36:18

my house and I mean by

36:20

the time his conviction was 18 I think it

36:22

was 17 at the time you know kid with

36:24

autism who who just had a

36:26

love of computers and obviously knew his way

36:28

around the dark web and everything like that

36:30

and you know and I think that's probably

36:33

what's really scary is that anyone can do

36:35

anything you know I mean he it seems

36:37

I mean we never know it seems that

36:39

he basically paid an agency

36:42

300 pounds to get to get my details I

36:44

mean it's as simple as that you know to

36:46

get my NHS details yeah for example and so

36:48

yeah but I think in in the

36:50

modern world you know I'm very careful what I put

36:52

on social media and stuff but but in the modern

36:55

world he just can't really hide

36:57

anymore yeah I mean that is just

36:59

a net that's a changing world issue

37:01

rather than a changing outlook issue for

37:04

you and and indeed your engagement has

37:06

changed as well with growing out of

37:08

searchlight looking more at the underlying causes

37:10

of the far right and the research

37:12

and community engagement side of things trying

37:14

to reach the people who are susceptible

37:16

to the propaganda one of the reasons

37:19

you've become what you call is what

37:21

you call a hate figure is because

37:23

you're perceived as only going after white

37:25

supremacists and that's not fair because it's

37:27

not true well I

37:30

mean even even

37:32

in the last 48 hours we've had

37:34

a massive pile on against me particularly

37:36

against us but because we're also going

37:38

after George Galloway yes I've been Rochdale

37:40

and it's like you know to us

37:42

I mean obviously he he's not a

37:44

Nazi but he's divisive and dangerous for

37:47

different reasons and he's highly sectarian and

37:49

you know what he's kind of provoking

37:51

so we've had a massive pile on from certain

37:55

people you know and again on social media it's

37:57

so easy to kind of think that there's one

37:59

what people think, all these people are important

38:02

and they aren't. But I mean, over the years,

38:04

we've gone after, you know, Al-Majeroun, we've gone over,

38:07

you know, gone after his book to here. You

38:09

know, we're not specialists in these sorts of things,

38:11

but particularly groups like Al-Majeroun, who in a way

38:13

operate like a kind of white, or operated like

38:15

a white gang. We could

38:17

understand them kind of better. What's

38:20

the abiding theme then? If we had to,

38:22

you know, people coming fresh to your work

38:25

as a consequence of this conversation, we

38:28

hope not, we go after organisations

38:31

and individuals who... Who are

38:33

trying to exploit

38:36

frustrations, to create

38:38

divisions, and in a

38:40

way set groups against each other. And I

38:42

think also, so for example, when we were

38:45

fighting the English Defence League when

38:47

they were marching through our streets, the

38:50

reality was that they were tapping into

38:53

real or perceived issues. Be

38:55

it about Islamist extremism or terrorism,

38:58

be it around issues around grooming,

39:00

or Asian gang violence in certain towns. And

39:02

you couldn't just, if you were to win

39:04

the kind of hearts and minds of ordinary

39:06

people in those towns, you couldn't ignore those

39:08

issues. I remember that, I mean, it was

39:11

a really kind of important moment for us,

39:13

for me and a mate of mine. We

39:15

were in a rovarum, probably about 2010. There

39:18

was an English Defence League march around grooming.

39:22

Which was a real issue. Yes,

39:24

absolutely. We were talking about 1400 people. And

39:27

1400 vulnerable people, primarily. And there was this march,

39:29

and there was a kind of anti-racist,

39:32

anti-fascist counter-protest, where they literally stood on

39:34

the side of the street and just

39:37

shouted Nazi scum at these people. And

39:40

there was literally a coach load of

39:42

people that had come from Maltby, the

39:44

old mining village. And these

39:46

people came, they weren't EDL people. Many

39:49

of them had been low-piped people. Most of them

39:51

had been through the strike for a whole year.

39:54

They marched at the back, and they were some

39:56

distance away from the EDL. Because

39:58

one of their daughters had been abused. And

40:00

what they saw is their party the

40:02

Labour Party had let them down the

40:05

Labour Council let them down So they

40:07

were out of frustration Maltby seven miles

40:09

from Rotherham they got a coach Yeah,

40:12

I mean, I mean, this is the kind of the pro-colism of it

40:14

all and they they marched slightly

40:16

separately But they wanted to show that their

40:18

anger and of course they came past the

40:21

demonstration And some of these

40:23

people had been out campaigning with us

40:25

against the BMP a few years before And

40:28

they marched past these protesters who all shouted

40:30

Nazi scum but that yeah, and these people

40:32

were furious They're good trade unionists and they

40:34

said if that's what you think about us

40:36

We're gonna quicken up and we're gonna join

40:38

this much And I remember

40:40

myself and Akali we had a beer with a few

40:42

of them a few of them who we knew and

40:44

we're trying To understand why they were there and everything

40:47

And they were just saying look you just you've

40:50

forgotten about us and you don't care you as

40:52

in the You know progressive

40:54

world and I kind of they were right

40:57

and they were right and and you know Whether it's

40:59

you know the consequence of you know, you

41:02

know Like Luton you can't just go into

41:04

Luton and attack the English Defense League and

41:06

say nothing about you know And Jim Choudry

41:08

now madre, ooh, you know You can't go

41:10

into Tower Hamlets and say no to

41:12

the far right marching through there and say nothing

41:15

about his but to hear Oh some of the

41:17

other bad things that are happening there and I

41:19

think it comes down to most British people Believe

41:22

a sense of fairness and that

41:24

most British people are not extreme They don't

41:26

like extremism But what they don't

41:29

also don't like is you just saying from one

41:31

point of view and not saying the other and

41:33

I think and of Course that's got us into

41:35

a lot of hot water with some on the

41:37

left or but but equally it doesn't

41:39

butter any parsnips with The

41:42

people that are opposed to you because they ignore the

41:44

fact that you've done Yeah the balance

41:46

you they ignore the fact that you cite The

41:48

other side of the coin as it were and

41:50

pretend that you're dedicated solely to going after them

41:52

Which brings us in a way to it's not

41:54

I mean, it's the 20th anniversary of hope not

41:56

a but it brings us to your annual Report

41:59

when you talk about the average

42:01

British person or what the attitude

42:04

to extremism is. You

42:06

warned this year in March that

42:08

the radical right is growing in

42:11

confidence but there was also some, there

42:13

was some grounds for encouragement from this report

42:15

as well. I mean I think that where

42:19

the majority of the public is on many

42:21

of the issues is vastly different from when

42:23

I was a kid for example. You know

42:25

I mean even the far right, they don't

42:27

talk about a white only country anymore. No.

42:29

You know what I mean? And actually most

42:31

people do. Well then you say that Nick.

42:34

What do they mean when they say we want our

42:36

country back? So they don't explicitly

42:38

say. Yeah, yeah. But in the

42:40

sense of they know that they

42:42

can't win power with that sort of

42:44

rhetoric. Of course they believe it

42:47

themselves but you know most people, not

42:49

everyone of course, but most people have

42:51

friends from different ethnic groups and there's

42:53

more and more people who are in

42:55

relationships with you know. And they're not,

42:57

you know, it's the reality you're talking

42:59

about three generations now in some

43:01

cases of people. You know but you can't undo

43:03

that even if some people

43:05

would want to. But at the same

43:08

time I think both the national and

43:10

the global challenges are growing. You know

43:12

there is, I think that, and it's

43:14

been happening with kind of post-industrialization

43:16

but then the financial crash in 2008 really

43:18

speeded up. People

43:20

feeling that the system isn't working for them.

43:22

Yes. You know that power is moving away.

43:24

And I think that's a lot the Brexit

43:27

thing. You know. But again it's got

43:29

that kernel of truth in it. That things

43:31

are working for them. They have been left behind and

43:33

then if the right character comes along and whispers in

43:35

their ear that it's all the fault of the Polish

43:37

builders or it's all the fault of the Muslims or

43:40

it's all the fault of the, then

43:42

that's when the Tinder can ignite. Yeah and

43:44

I think even if you look at the

43:46

kind of the climate change,

43:48

you know the climate change, because of

43:50

course that's increasing movement to people. It's

43:52

creating resources, scarcity of resources.

43:55

It's going to create a kind of nationalism

43:57

over natural resources. It's a big fear for

43:59

the people. future. Yeah and I think

44:01

increasingly and so for example I hope

44:03

not hey we're increasingly saying that we

44:06

can't just fight kind of extremism a

44:08

on our own now but also it's

44:10

so intertwined with other issues now and

44:12

that actually we have to work together

44:14

with other people I mean you know

44:16

what happens if Donald Trump becomes president

44:18

of the US I'm look at

44:20

France now I mean it's just you know it's teetering

44:23

it's horrific yeah. Which that probably

44:25

brings us to Nigel Farage doesn't

44:27

it in terms of where we

44:29

are contextually and chronologically. Hope not

44:31

hate's under no illusions or rather

44:33

hope not hate is clear in

44:36

identifying him as part of the threats

44:38

and the problems we've been talking about.

44:40

Some people listening to this may not

44:42

think that's fair. Well I mean

44:45

I think that it's a combination of

44:47

what he says and what he

44:49

does but also what is he

44:52

tapping into and it's exactly

44:54

the same audience in a

44:56

slightly more polite or

44:58

polished version to the British National Party.

45:01

Yeah we look at the Brexit debate

45:03

and it's about identity it's

45:06

about Great Britain you

45:08

know we look Nigel Farage you know he'll

45:11

make these throw away comments around Muslims or

45:13

you know immigrants the fifth

45:15

column all these things and again

45:17

it's what he's triggering in others

45:19

he doesn't need to necessarily say

45:22

the harsh stuff but that's where that's that's

45:24

where they are. And then and then it

45:26

turns out that you know a

45:28

significant proportion of his candidate list are

45:30

friends on Facebook with this

45:32

Rakes character. And also I

45:35

mean I've you know I've noticed that even in

45:37

the last couple of weeks as he's getting more

45:39

confident it's becoming harder on some of these

45:41

issues as well. You know and I think

45:43

that when he gets a chance and we saw

45:45

that you know random after Donald Trump got elected

45:47

and you know I mean he was saying stuff

45:50

in the US which is far more extreme than

45:52

he was saying here. And I think that he

45:54

fits in I mean two or three years ago

45:56

he was kind of you know singing the

45:58

virtues of far-right growth. Groups all across

46:00

Europe now. He's trying to distance himself

46:02

from some of them now But that's

46:04

his natural home and it's only

46:07

because he sees politically Oh, I can't

46:09

be so you know, kind of like, you know can't be

46:11

so public about my support for X or Y group But

46:13

he's got on record about them and I think with with

46:15

Marine Le Pen but also with the IDF They

46:21

got a few wrong ends in there and you

46:23

know, just like Le Pen she's tried to distance

46:26

herself from the AFD He was he was he

46:28

was cheerleading them, you know, a couple of years

46:30

ago and you know, and I think that's That's

46:33

the danger because it's you look at each of

46:36

these figures whether it's you know, forage Le

46:38

Pen Maloney You know, oh well, maybe in power,

46:40

you know, and there's a line from the economist

46:42

for example Oh, well give them a bit power

46:44

and it puts them in a bit of a

46:46

straight jacket It doesn't when you start getting two

46:49

three four of these people in power together They're

46:51

gonna start flexing their muscles and you know

46:54

They have to put on a more polite

46:56

more respectable a softer image to get into

46:58

power But are you telling me that Le

47:00

Pen is really running France. She's not gonna

47:02

do horrific things Where

47:04

does Putin fit into all of this? Well, I mean

47:07

we're quite clear that part of

47:09

the jigsaw that we're up against

47:11

is Authoritarian regimes,

47:14

you know and he plays fast and

47:16

loose with kind of you know race

47:18

when it suits him He actively sets

47:20

out to kind of undermine democracies to

47:22

wind up divisions, you know I mean

47:25

and not enough has been done not

47:27

just around brexit and the brexit vote

47:29

but in 2017

47:31

when we had a number of terrorist

47:33

attacks in London and Manchester Russian Russian

47:36

bots were actively trying to

47:38

promote Tommy Robinson and we've got

47:40

the accounts. We know the accounts were

47:42

actively trying to wind things up promoting

47:45

division promoting disharmony and

47:48

It is an absolute scandal that the government

47:51

for its own political reasons have not Investigated

47:53

this because it you know, they've been caught

47:55

doing this in other places They haven't been

47:57

caught and it's gonna go on and we

47:59

got China as well. I mean look at

48:01

China. Yeah, you look at what they're doing

48:04

in Jingjiang province in doing to the week

48:06

Uyghurs and You know part

48:08

of our anger at people like George

48:10

Galloway and some some of these groups

48:12

on the left is that they just

48:14

Excuse all this stuff because it's binary

48:16

because it's binary because my

48:18

enemy is enemy You know because these people

48:21

are anti anti US imperialist So it's you

48:23

know, and I think that

48:25

it's this mixture of you know Authoritarian

48:28

regimes right-wing regimes,

48:30

you know religious extremism This is

48:32

a really dangerous mix and and

48:34

in a way liberal democracy It

48:36

is teetering because it's no longer

48:38

an economic powerhouse in the 60s

48:40

70s and 80s People

48:43

over the world in a way had to follow because

48:45

in a way that was the way to it You

48:47

know economic advancement and it's no longer We're

48:52

nearly out of time we should stress that hope not

48:54

hate relies on Donations really

48:56

to operate both from individuals and

48:59

and institutions. I know that Brendan

49:01

Cox joke joke Cox's widow made

49:04

The organization one of the beneficiaries of

49:06

her memorial fund but but you also

49:09

need donations from normal people Yeah,

49:11

I mean it's I'm always very embarrassed to talk

49:13

about that sort of thing But

49:16

actually we are you know, we can do

49:18

our work because of support from our supporters

49:20

and speaking of your work

49:22

we touched on some of the Successes

49:24

of hope not hate some of some of the

49:27

achievements that let's talk about one more you mentioned

49:29

it at the anniversary

49:31

party about threats to an MP

49:33

that you'd been involved in bringing

49:35

to light and and seeing the

49:38

culprit jailed Yeah, so in

49:40

December 2016 the then home

49:42

secretary and Barad prescribed

49:45

a far-right group National

49:48

action and it was the first

49:50

kind of far-right group to be as prescribed as

49:52

a terrorist organization since the end of World War

49:54

two To all intents and purposes the

49:57

group then disbanded as a result of that.

49:59

We knew that it hadn't. Someone inside

50:01

the group up in the

50:03

northwest of England came to us in April

50:05

of 2017 and said, look, I

50:08

need to find a way out of this because if

50:10

I don't, I'm going to either end up in prison

50:12

or I'm going to end up dead. And so we

50:15

were going through a period over a number of weeks

50:17

because we didn't know who this person was. And we

50:19

thought, you know, is this a trap over

50:21

a number of weeks, over two or three months,

50:23

we were kind of debriefing this person. Lots of

50:25

names we didn't know, but he was still inside

50:27

the organization. And in early July, he came

50:30

to us and he said, I've just been

50:32

at some event. We've had a

50:34

meeting with a meetup every Saturday. I've had a, we've

50:36

had a meeting and there was this young lad there

50:39

who said that he was going to kill his MP.

50:42

And, you know, we looked

50:44

at the person's Facebook account and he was

50:46

getting more and more aggressive in his language.

50:48

And basically we had to go to the

50:50

police and it was days

50:52

away from happening. He was going to kill his MP,

50:54

take hostages, and then try to

50:56

kill a police officer, the police officer who

50:58

was investigating him for child porn and online

51:01

grooming. And he was one of the leaders

51:03

of this kind of group started off in

51:05

the BMP, moved to national action. So we

51:07

went to the place and we said to

51:09

our bloke inside, this is going to change

51:11

your life because you know, you're going to

51:13

have to give evidence, but this is so

51:15

important. And I'll tell you what was, you

51:17

know, just very quickly, what was really interesting

51:20

is that we went to the police and

51:22

we said, look, we have this information, this,

51:24

this is happening. And we had several weeks

51:26

of real hardship with the police, whether police,

51:29

they wanted our source without any conditions that

51:31

you wouldn't get prosecuted because he was in

51:33

an illegal organization. They then tried to kind

51:36

of, you know, talk badly about us who,

51:38

you know, shouldn't have anything to do with

51:40

us or whatever, to the point that I

51:42

had a phone call from a sergeant in

51:45

counter terrorism threatening to arrest me for engaging

51:47

under the terrorist act. There's no provision for

51:49

journalists for engaging with someone with a prescribed

51:51

organization. And it was like we had to

51:53

take the decision that after after what happened to Joe

51:56

Cox and the fact that we'd saved this person's life,

51:58

this MP's life, they weren't going to You know,

52:00

we say we took a gamble. I mean we were quite

52:02

confident, but we said Arrest us then

52:04

because we're not until we get a deal with the

52:06

Attorney General We're not going to hand over our our

52:09

sauce until we you know, he he gets um immunity

52:12

Yeah, and in the end after

52:14

a lot of you know, a lot of doing and throwing

52:17

they they kind of relented We got the deal with the

52:19

Attorney General He gave evidence and

52:21

now someone's serving 25 years in prison and

52:23

literally it was days away from happening and

52:25

you know things like that You

52:28

know, I mean obviously that's the exception rather than a norm

52:30

But of course it makes you feel that actually we

52:32

do something of value Have you have you spoken

52:35

to that MP about it? Have you

52:37

had any contact personally? No, but

52:39

they know oh, yeah Yeah, yeah, they

52:42

kind of know um I

52:45

think it traumatized the MP so much

52:48

that For whatever

52:50

reason I think that she just didn't want to

52:53

talk about it ever again. It's never over

52:55

is it Nick? No So

52:57

when do you hang up your hat? I

53:00

don't know. I'm I'm 56 years old now. I'm

53:02

kind of I've done this for 35 years I

53:06

mean in the sense, this is my life Yeah, this

53:08

is what i've always done and I still feel I

53:10

mean even the last few weeks I mean out campaigning

53:12

and I love it. I love it But at the

53:14

same time it does get harder and I think I

53:16

think the when when I first started Nazis were Nazis

53:18

And we even when we were fighting the BMP you

53:21

could beat them at a ballot box and we would

53:23

win Now you kind of feel

53:25

that you're trying to hold back a tide

53:27

and it is more difficult and more important

53:29

Yeah, and and I think that's right But

53:31

and I think that that keeps me going,

53:33

you know, and I think you know, obviously

53:35

I can't do can't do this forever But

53:37

as long as I can I will Nick Loews. Thank you

53:53

This is a global Playa

54:00

original podcast.