0:00

This year, I am focused on saving

0:02

and investing, but I still want to

0:04

do things like travel. NerdWallet

0:06

lets you compare top travel credit

0:08

cards side by side to maximize

0:10

your spending, some even offering

0:13

10 times points on your spending, which

0:15

means you could end up with a

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free flight or maybe a better hotel

0:20

room. So what could future you do

0:22

with smarter financial decisions? Compare and find

0:24

smarter credit cards, savings accounts, and more

0:27

today at nerdwallet.com. NerdWallet,

0:29

finance smarter. Reminder, credit is

0:31

subject to lender approval and

0:33

terms apply. I have a

0:35

big announcement! As part of

0:37

the celebration of the paperback release of

0:40

my latest book, Life in Five Senses,

0:42

I'm excited to hit the road. On

0:44

June 6, I'll be in

0:46

Atlanta, Georgia with Carris Books and

0:48

More at First Baptist Church of

0:50

Decatur. And on June

0:53

7, I'll be in Dallas, Texas

0:55

at Interrobang Books. I'll

0:57

talk about things like how the five

0:59

senses can contribute to our happiness, I'll

1:01

talk about the secret chapter I wrote,

1:04

and of course, why ketchup is magic.

1:06

You can get all the

1:09

details at happiercast.com/bookevents. That's one

1:11

word. Hello,

1:15

we're here for More Happier, a

1:17

podcast where we get more happier.

1:20

Today, we're revisiting an episode with

1:22

one of our favorite interviews from

1:24

the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast.

1:27

In our very first year of the

1:29

show, we talked to the terrific Drew

1:32

Barrymore about her best-selling book Wildflower, Personal

1:35

Symbols, and her fantastic Try

1:37

This at Home to help deepen connections

1:39

with children. We talked to

1:41

Drew in December of that year, so

1:43

this episode also covers end of

1:46

your rituals, procrastinating with holiday decorations,

1:48

and the joy of temporary tattoos.

1:51

We hope you enjoy the episode. Thanks

1:57

for watching! Hello

2:03

and welcome to Happier, a podcast where

2:05

we talk about how to build happier

2:07

habits into your everyday life. This

2:09

week we'll talk about having an end of the year ritual

2:12

and drum roll we will have an interview

2:14

with Drew Barrymore.

2:29

I'm Gretchen Rubens, writer studying happiness and

2:32

good habits in human nature. I'm in New

2:34

York City and with me is my sister

2:36

the sage, Elizabeth Kraft. That's

2:38

me Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and

2:40

producer living in LA and Gretchen I

2:43

am beyond excited to talk to Drew.

2:46

Yes. So I am beyond excited that

2:49

your paperback book came out. Better

2:51

than before is out in paperback.

2:53

How does it feel? It's great.

2:56

It's really exciting for a writer to walk into

2:58

a bookstore and see the book in the wild.

3:01

So no, it's very exciting to have it out in

3:03

paperback. And I think the cover looks

3:05

great. Oh thanks. Thanks. I

3:08

mean the other exciting news is that our live event

3:10

is coming up January 21st in San Francisco.

3:13

Tickets are selling. Visit slate.com/happier

3:16

if you can make it. We'd

3:18

love to see you in San Francisco. Tickets

3:21

are selling fast so come buy your ticket.

3:24

So Elizabeth this week our try this at home

3:26

tip is to have an end of the year

3:28

ritual. And it's a little funny that

3:30

we're picking this because actually neither one of us has

3:32

a good end of the year ritual. I

3:34

know but we heard about it and it sounds

3:36

like a good idea. Yeah, now one of the

3:39

ones I heard I wouldn't

3:41

argue myself. I have to say as an under buyer

3:43

I find this kind of shocking but I heard

3:46

about a woman who to mark

3:48

the new year takes everything out

3:50

of her refrigerator. She throws away

3:52

everything. The mustard, the pickles. She

3:55

goes all the way to bear shelves. And I would

3:57

never do that myself but I have to admit it

3:59

sounds kind of exhilarating

4:01

too. It does, and I mean

4:03

there are things in our fridge that are definitely

4:05

two years past expiration date. I mean I'll look

4:07

at some marmalade thing and I'm like wait, 2012?

4:11

I think I wanna have an end of the

4:13

original. What would it be? I don't know. I

4:15

wanna, maybe I'll do like a house cleaning where

4:17

I just go through every room and put every

4:19

single thing where it's supposed to be. I work

4:21

on this all the time, but somehow it never

4:24

gets done. But that's, I don't know, I would

4:26

love to hear from listeners if people have kind

4:28

of more interesting or exciting

4:30

or thought provoking end of your rituals

4:33

than just kind of clutter clearing, as

4:35

enticing as that sounds. Yeah, you know

4:37

I was thinking, I would love to

4:39

do like a photo book as an

4:41

end of your rituals. So you just

4:43

get those photos off the computer and

4:46

into some kind of book. But

4:49

I know that I will never do that, but

4:51

I was thinking I might be able to get

4:53

Adam to do it. So that's my secret plan.

4:55

That's a great plan. We'll see. So

4:57

that's kind of scrapbook, photo book, memento of

4:59

the year. That is a great idea, but you're right. It's

5:01

probably a fair amount of work. One

5:04

thing I do is I go through and write

5:06

all the birthdays in my calendar for the year, because I still use

5:08

a paper calendar. I still use a file effect. So that's a little

5:10

thing that I do. That's a ritual for

5:12

sure. It's important too, because otherwise I will

5:14

forget a birthday if

5:17

it's not written in my calendar. So

5:19

let us know if you have an interesting, try

5:21

this at home suggestion for an

5:24

end of the year ritual, because we're

5:26

on the hunt for a good ritual.

5:29

Let us know, Twitter, Facebook, email

5:31

at podcast at gretchenruehmann.com, or

5:34

you can go to happiercast.com/44, which

5:37

is the entry for this episode. So let us know.

5:40

And now our interview with Drew Barrymore,

5:42

who is joining us in the studio

5:45

in New York City. So exciting. Now

5:47

it's hard to sum up everything that Drew

5:49

Barrymore has done and is doing. She

5:51

got her first professional job at 11 months. She's

5:54

been a star since age six when she

5:56

was Gritty in E.T. And

5:58

she started movies like the... wedding singer ever

6:01

after, 51st Dates,

6:03

which by the way is a movie Jamie loves, Charlize

6:06

Angels. She's a co-founder of Flower Films,

6:08

a production company. And Gretch, I have

6:10

to mention she directed Whip It, which

6:12

is a movie you and I both

6:14

love. Then, you know,

6:16

like being a major Hollywood figure

6:19

wasn't enough to keep her busy.

6:21

She also started Flower Beauty, a

6:23

cosmetics line, and Flower Wines. And

6:26

she just published her second

6:28

book, which is excellent, Wildflower.

6:31

Hello, it's nice to

6:33

meet you. I'm Julia Goulia.

6:37

It's nice to meet you. I'm Mrs. Julia.

6:44

Ready? Yeah, excellent. Okay, hello

6:47

Drew Barrymore. Welcome to Happier. We

6:49

are so happy to have you

6:51

join us here in New York.

6:54

I can't believe I'm with B.

6:56

Gretchen. I'm tripping out right now

6:58

because I can't tell

7:01

you how much I love

7:03

your book for my best friend's bachelorette

7:06

weekend. Everyone was to contribute something in

7:08

the bags and I put the happiness

7:10

journal in there for all the girls.

7:13

And I have a story

7:15

for you, which is that you and

7:18

my in-laws, who I'm very

7:20

close with, belong to

7:22

the same establishment. And

7:24

every time I've gone there, I ask

7:27

my sister, who is a sister-in-law,

7:29

but we've just dropped the in-laws,

7:31

Jill, who's also a writer, like

7:33

Elizabeth. And I've

7:36

gone on like several stalking missions

7:38

trying to find you because

7:40

I wanted to meet you so

7:42

badly. And then this one particular

7:44

week I was doing a hashtag on

7:46

my Instagram called Amazing

7:48

Women Week. And I

7:51

wanted to find you and get a picture

7:53

of you so badly. And it was on

7:55

Halloween and I was asking everyone if you

7:57

were there and I probably seemed a little

7:59

creepy. because I've been stalking you

8:01

at this place for a long time.

8:04

So I'm very happy to get to

8:06

meet you finally. Oh, that's so great.

8:08

And Elizabeth. And I feel like I

8:10

know you guys from the world that

8:13

you've created and put out there and

8:15

been so giving with and ingratiating. Oh,

8:17

well, thank you so much. That's so

8:19

nice. Oh. Yeah. And

8:22

I know Jill, Drew, and I have to say shout out

8:24

to Odd Mom Out. Oh. I think

8:26

about Jill Kargbeth, great show. Yes. I

8:29

love her so much. I hit, I call it in

8:31

the book, The In-Law Jackpot. Yeah. And

8:33

she's the same. It's like sister-in-law jackpot. Ding, ding,

8:35

ding, ding, ding. Well, that was one of the

8:38

things that struck me about your book and about me

8:40

and Elizabeth is we all have really great

8:42

relationships with our in-laws. And talk about a

8:44

happiness booster. That makes

8:46

a big difference. It's

8:49

really glue. Yeah. It

8:51

binds you in a different way

8:53

when nothing has bound

8:55

me more than children. Any

8:58

relationship I've ever had. And

9:02

I thought that I couldn't be bound more

9:04

than like what I've had with my friends

9:06

because they were my chosen family and I

9:08

didn't have that family family. And

9:11

I just have such a bond and

9:13

such loyalty, such fierce, lion-like

9:15

loyalty with my friends. In fact, the book is

9:18

a lot of a love letter to a lot

9:20

of them. And

9:22

I just was telling Jill, my editor who's

9:24

here, we were texting last night and I

9:26

said, I wish I had

9:28

had my children sooner because I want

9:31

more time with them. But I wouldn't have been

9:33

ready and I wouldn't have been at the right

9:35

place. But I now know

9:37

what love is. So

9:39

this whole sort of new chapter of

9:42

blood family in-laws, like

9:44

this new glue, it's

9:47

extraordinary. And it's like

9:49

nothing I've ever known.

9:53

It's amazing. Well, it seems

9:55

like one of the things that you talk about

9:57

in your book is that you... in

10:00

many ways figured out what you wanted

10:02

for a happy life by

10:05

doing the opposite of what your

10:07

own experience was, which is a

10:09

very profound way to

10:11

think about what you want from a happy life. But

10:13

it's not a very pleasant way. Like I remember you

10:16

have this hilarious description in your book of

10:18

the kind of lunch box hunger

10:20

games at your school and how

10:23

your mom didn't pack you a lunch. Yeah. And

10:25

so you were kind of out there in the

10:28

wild and how sort of

10:30

traumatic it was and how even reverberates into

10:32

your kind of feelings. Now, I

10:35

am a seagull. Yeah. I am

10:37

an angry semi

10:39

like homeless seagull that

10:42

like really does have

10:44

a desperate look in my

10:46

eyes. Yeah. So how have

10:49

you thought about sort

10:51

of thinking about, okay, this is

10:53

what I didn't have. This is what I'm going to provide.

10:55

This is what I'm going to build in. This is what

10:57

I'm going to cement in for myself. Well, one of the

10:59

things in my homework that you gave me, so for

11:02

the tip aspect, which I'll answer when

11:04

you asked me, but it

11:06

has some connection to you talk

11:08

about picture frames so much in

11:10

your book. And I remember

11:13

when I was a kid that like,

11:15

I swear to God, I was so

11:17

bewildered by families that had picture frames.

11:20

And it was, and then it's like

11:22

when I saw the pictures hanging on the

11:24

wall of my husband's apartment,

11:28

you know, with his family and like

11:30

this whole life lived this, you know,

11:33

long drawn out generations of a

11:35

family. And it's like what hit

11:37

my intimidation button right back to

11:39

that sort of like weird

11:41

childhood. But the other side of

11:44

that childhood feeling was it

11:47

was intimidation because I just didn't have the picture

11:49

frames. Like I never had dinner with my mom

11:51

and my dad, let alone a picture of the

11:53

three of us. And I

11:56

always longed for it. Like I aspired,

11:59

it gave me a very positive feeling

12:01

too. I wasn't like, I don't know

12:03

what that's like and that just hurts

12:05

my feelings and why didn't I have

12:07

that. What's wrong with my life? I

12:09

really felt the opposite. I was like,

12:12

that looks beautiful. One day maybe when

12:15

I create my own family, I will do

12:17

that. It was

12:19

a really glowing, warm,

12:21

impressionable, imprintable feeling that I

12:24

had. It never made me

12:26

feel angry or bad. It

12:28

always made me feel like

12:30

that's a great way to

12:33

live. The way that you

12:35

talked about it in your book, which I

12:37

hadn't thought about and I

12:39

just think is the other side of

12:41

that coin of such incredible insight and

12:43

positivity is it just

12:45

is the constant reminders of the

12:48

memories and to

12:50

keep convincing

12:52

yourself when you

12:54

get distracted and lost and away

12:56

from the connective tissue of these

12:59

moments lived that are so grounding.

13:01

I just loved

13:03

that so much. It was like finding

13:05

another puzzle piece to something that has

13:08

been so impressionable to

13:10

me, picture frames of families in their

13:12

home. It's a big deal to me

13:14

and I just loved that your book

13:16

talked about that so much. Throughout the

13:18

book, it was woven through it. I

13:20

knew it was a thing for you. Drew,

13:23

I'm curious. Now that you have this great family

13:25

and you have all these things in place, are

13:27

there times where you still feel lost like, oh,

13:31

I didn't have this in my childhood. I don't know

13:33

how to proceed. Sometimes

13:36

I have that feeling and

13:38

it's usually when I'm questioning

13:40

myself or I feel like

13:42

I'm being questioned. That

13:46

can throw me into like, oh, God,

13:48

I just have no blueprint here.

13:50

It's really hard. I try

13:52

to remind myself that a

13:54

lot of parents feel that

13:56

way. There is no manual

13:59

and I was

14:02

very intimidated at

14:04

first when my baby, first

14:06

baby, was first born at

14:08

everyone talking about these instincts,

14:10

these profound

14:13

instincts that

14:15

every mother gets. And I

14:17

was like, it's not happening.

14:19

Or how do you get

14:21

them? And

14:23

if someone is telling

14:25

you how to do something which you feel like

14:28

is vital life saving information and you're like, is

14:30

that going to create an instinct? That just sounds

14:32

like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

14:35

And when will they kick in? And I was

14:37

so anxious for them to

14:39

kick in. And I was like, is

14:41

it going to be an overarching instinct,

14:43

like a rainbow that comes across on

14:46

me? Or is it going to be

14:48

like skittles on the floor? And like,

14:50

there'll be little instincts all over the

14:52

place about tiny details. That

14:55

was the thing that I felt

14:58

was like, is that going to

15:00

be a nature nurture? Am I

15:02

going to get them later because

15:04

I didn't have a

15:06

mom or a dad to pull

15:08

from in a memory sense? And

15:11

is my instincts going to take a while

15:13

longer because I'm really starting from ground zero?

15:16

Or is it

15:19

something that just takes a while

15:21

for every woman, like this

15:23

sort of mellifluous, ongoing,

15:27

very fluid process? And

15:32

I think it's a little bit

15:34

of both. I've discovered it is

15:36

something that comes upon you like

15:38

a slow wave, a nice large

15:40

blanket that

15:44

sort of wafts upon you. And then you

15:46

have those light bulbs, shocking

15:49

electric epiphanies here and there

15:51

where you go, wait, no,

15:53

no, I know what I'm supposed to do here.

15:56

And some is like, I'm feeling better. I'm

15:58

feeling like I can handle this. more

16:00

and it's a bit of

16:02

a dance that's

16:05

very elegant and waltz-like and then all of

16:07

a sudden it's like crazy

16:09

disco you know and

16:12

like electric another

16:14

minute and

16:17

it's nice when you do start

16:19

to connect with your instincts because

16:21

everybody tells you you're supposed to

16:24

have them and until you really

16:26

feel like you do and and then

16:28

they're ever-changing as your kid grows up

16:30

it's first it's survival and then it's

16:32

behavioral and it's constantly keeping

16:35

you on your toes kids just keep

16:37

you on your toes every second one

16:39

thing that worked an hour ago isn't

16:41

gonna work in the next hour it's

16:43

so wild that's that's true but yeah

16:46

I thought was something that I was very

16:51

aware of and and and

16:53

intimidated by and then appreciative

16:55

when they would come in

16:58

things and now

17:00

we're going to take a short break when

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at linkedin.com/Gretchen. That's linkedin.com/Gretchen

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to post your job

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for free. Terms

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and conditions apply. The

18:21

weather's getting warmer, so it's time to

18:23

say goodbye to jackets and sweaters and

18:25

hello to shorts and tees. I wanted

18:27

to update my wardrobe without spending a

18:29

fortune. And luckily I found Quince. Alyssa,

18:31

I got the Flownit Wide Leg Pant.

18:34

It's very light, it's perfect for the

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summer. It packs very easily. I recently

18:38

went on a trip with my family

18:40

and I took it with me. And

18:42

they were just the thing to wear on a

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free shipping and 365

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day returns. quince.com/Gretchen.

19:26

And we're back. Now, once I'm

19:28

obsessed with the issue of habits and

19:30

happiness, are there any habits that you

19:32

follow that you feel like consistently help

19:34

keep you happier, healthier,

19:37

more productive, more grounded? I mean, you do such

19:39

a gigantic, you have so many balls in the

19:41

air at all times. Are there habits

19:43

that you do that help you just keep

19:46

up with all that? I

19:48

think the fundamental is remembering how lucky

19:50

I am. And

19:53

I can get really caught up

19:55

in the BS or... frustrated

20:00

with how exhausted I am

20:02

or feel like, you

20:05

know, correspondence just never

20:08

– I mean, I'm convinced correspondence

20:10

in the tech world is an

20:12

avalanche. Like you push

20:14

them away with your little fingertips and you

20:17

like – your eyes peek out and then

20:19

someone kicks another email into you and you're

20:21

like, there goes my eyes again. God,

20:24

I will never get out of this

20:26

avalanche. We have to ban

20:28

reply all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Too

20:31

much. And it makes me feel

20:33

like a constant failure because when I'm

20:35

not on top of

20:38

things or ahead of things and

20:41

it's like even when I clean it

20:43

all up, it just gets – the

20:45

snow gets just all kicked all over

20:47

me again. And I'm like, oh, and

20:49

then I have to remember, okay, like

20:52

think about how lucky you are. Think

20:54

about how good life is. Think about

20:57

what you have. Is this correspondence a

20:59

number one important in your life? No,

21:01

it's like number seven at best. So

21:04

why is number seven making you feel

21:06

like you failed on every level? You

21:09

know, even last night I was in my

21:12

bed and I was like, I can't believe

21:14

I get to sleep in a bed. I

21:16

can't believe how lucky I am. I

21:19

am blessed. And it was – you

21:21

know, and then I was like, you really

21:23

should think about that more often like every night

21:25

how lucky you are. And I was like, oh

21:27

my God, I'm beating myself up because I don't

21:29

feel grateful enough for my gratitude. Oh my God.

21:33

I mean, I really – when

21:35

I saw the guy in the Da Vinci

21:37

code just cat an eye and tailing himself

21:40

in the back repeatedly with like long strands

21:42

of leather and metal

21:44

spikes, I was like, yeah, I love him. I get

21:46

him. That's like me at like

21:48

throughout the day. And I'm the

21:51

kind of person that like, you know, will

21:53

dare make a joke and if it doesn't land

21:55

I'm like, oh, I'm such an idiot. Like why

21:57

did I make that joke? Like that felt so

21:59

funny. flat and created an awkward moment.

22:01

You are such a loser." And

22:04

then I'm like, why am I? It's

22:06

a joke. That person's probably, if

22:08

they think I'm a loser, they're

22:10

probably onto the next thing about

22:12

themselves or other things. But

22:14

then I don't think that way. I'm

22:16

very... Okay. Happiness,

22:19

to me, is when everyone else is

22:21

happy. And

22:24

I feel like, and this goes back

22:26

to the correspondence, so it'll come full

22:29

circle and hopefully make some sense is,

22:31

when I clean the inbox, I feel

22:33

like everybody's been gotten back to, so

22:35

they feel addressed and content. That

22:37

makes me feel good. It's the

22:40

anxiety that they don't feel that,

22:42

that actually is the root of

22:44

the problem. It's not my failure.

22:46

It's that other people feel content.

22:48

When my kids are happy, when they're healthy,

22:51

that's a number one. So if emails are

22:53

number seven, the kids are number one. Okay, great. Now

22:56

I've got the priorities. When people are happy,

22:58

I am happy. But here must be a

23:00

special challenge for you because the fact is

23:02

you are this huge famous person

23:04

who everybody recognizes. And

23:06

so an average person would walk into a room and

23:08

there's a few people who would recognize them and maybe

23:10

have these expectations or want to have a

23:12

nice interaction with them. But

23:15

for you, it's like that level of

23:17

people who want to have a positive

23:19

interaction with you must just be sort

23:22

of unfathomable to the average person who

23:24

just knows who they know. And so

23:26

do you feel just depleted by that?

23:29

It adds another avalanche sometimes. However,

23:32

I think it has confounded

23:35

the notion that

23:37

we and the realization

23:39

that we are all energy like

23:41

people. And if I was

23:43

to have a negative exchange with someone, not

23:47

only will it make me

23:49

feel bad, but that person will carry

23:51

that negativity away from them with them.

23:53

And I just can't handle that. I

23:55

don't like that. And I don't think

23:57

it's necessary. And it is

23:59

exhausting. sometimes, sure, and you know, God, if

24:01

I'm having a fight with my husband or

24:04

something and someone comes up and they're like,

24:06

can I get a picture? And you're like,

24:08

I wish I felt comfortable enough to tell

24:10

you why I'm irritated right now. It

24:12

has nothing to do with you. I'm having a moment with, in

24:15

my personal life, can you please just

24:18

give me a, you know, mulligan here?

24:21

But you can't, you can't say that. So you

24:23

kind of just grit your teeth and get through

24:25

the moment and you're like, it's fine.

24:27

Like just take it, good, bye, done. You'll go

24:29

off and carry on with your universe and I'll

24:31

get back to mine and it'll all be fine.

24:34

But I also am lucky in that I

24:36

grew up with it. So it's very normal

24:38

to me. It's a little bit of that.

24:40

This is your destiny. And

24:43

it comes with a lot of gratitude

24:45

of you are just

24:47

no different than anyone else. That's

24:49

just a weird part of your

24:52

quilt. It's a weird

24:54

patch in your quilt and

24:56

you honor it and you say thank you

24:58

for it and you move on. And

25:01

it never goes in the pocket of my ego

25:04

and I know what's real and I know

25:06

what's important and it's been a really good

25:09

discipline for me in my life not

25:11

to get caught up in the BS

25:13

and to continue to make sure that

25:15

you know your behavior really does

25:17

affect other people. You

25:20

have an opportunity to send that

25:22

person away feeling good or bad.

25:25

Which do you choose? And

25:27

you know Drew, as you sort of

25:29

got to this place throughout this journey

25:31

to become who you are now and

25:33

have these insights, reading Wildflower, it seemed

25:36

like a pretty significant moment

25:38

in that process was when you

25:40

were building that fire. Yes. And

25:43

that word bound trip you took with

25:45

Cameron Diaz and Lucy Liu to promote

25:47

Charlie's Angel. Do

25:49

you want to set that up a little and maybe read?

25:52

Sure. Shall I read that passage you

25:54

mark? So you're struggling to make the

25:56

fire right? Yes. So

25:59

they... in the survival world they're

26:01

teaching you how to like eat leaves off

26:03

trees that are you know going to create

26:05

saliva in your mouth and of course I'm

26:08

like I'd rather die out

26:10

here and the other girls Cameron and

26:12

Lucy were just like teachers pets they

26:14

were loving every second of

26:16

it and I was outcast because I was

26:19

in such a just I was I was

26:21

losing it I lost it I didn't I

26:23

wasn't losing I lost it

26:25

completely and everything

26:27

had a survival aspect how you

26:29

learn to sleep outside at night and

26:31

use leaves as a blanket etc so

26:34

here was the moment we were learning to make

26:36

fire and it goes

26:38

something like this I'm reading from the

26:41

book but I

26:43

was thrilled and I could never have appreciated

26:45

it in the same way if I hadn't

26:47

been through what I had been through simple

26:49

as that everything has to

26:51

get taken away it has in

26:54

my life too everything went away when

26:56

I was 13 and I lost

26:58

my job my credibility and my

27:00

freedom and I had to rebuild

27:03

everything but like

27:05

with the fire I didn't give up I

27:08

may not have done it with grace but

27:11

I fought my way into something

27:13

better and more enlightened I

27:16

will have many more rounds to go in

27:18

life but this was a big one my

27:21

lesson here was that you do not

27:23

give up you hold

27:25

yourself accountable you stay

27:27

grateful and you hold on tight

27:30

to your friends that's

27:32

so beautiful and then a couple pages later

27:34

you say I'd grown up a little bit more

27:36

right at the point when I needed to and

27:38

I think that's the thing for a lot of us is like

27:41

now is when I need to step it up and

27:43

I can and like that that's such a beautiful moment

27:45

you know and another thing that really struck both Elizabeth

27:48

and me we were talking about this

27:50

this idea of personal symbols because

27:53

we we talked about personal symbols

27:55

ourselves my personal symbol is

27:57

the bluebird of course yeah and you

27:59

have flower symbol. You get

28:01

to write in like page two

28:03

of the book when you talk

28:06

about the bougainvillea that grew in

28:08

your West Hollywood apartment. It was

28:10

so effective and impressionable. Yeah. Well,

28:13

you created such a picture of like this sort

28:15

of gritty, urban, concrete

28:17

landscape and then this beautiful

28:19

wall of gorgeous flowers.

28:22

Yes. With the most incredible

28:24

color of vibrant

28:27

maroon fuchsia, purple,

28:29

red you've ever seen. And

28:32

then I just thought, you know what? Let's

28:34

just, everybody's a different flower, but some people

28:37

are a cabbage rose, some people are a

28:39

dandelion, some people, you know, are a sunflower.

28:41

Well, my spiritual master is St. Therese and

28:43

she says she's one of the little wild

28:46

flowers of the forest. Yeah.

28:48

Not a lily or a rose, but a

28:50

little wildflower. Yeah. Everybody's different. So I thought

28:52

in a what flower are you kind of

28:54

way? Maybe this is good because flower films

28:56

seems more like a garden. And

28:59

I loved Candide

29:02

and the end line

29:04

of Cultivate Your Garden. I thought this

29:06

is more ingratiating. This

29:09

is more encompassing. And you know,

29:11

I have a chapter called All

29:13

Ages Party in the book. I

29:16

love your happiness project because I feel

29:18

like you had a personal

29:21

notion. But what you did is you

29:23

cast a very wide net for

29:25

everyone to jump into. And and I

29:28

always wanted to do that with movies and

29:30

storytelling was some little aspiration

29:32

I had in my heart or Nan had in

29:35

her heart, we would build so that

29:37

really it's at the end of the day, it

29:40

isn't for you, it's for everyone else. But

29:42

it comes from you. And if it's personal, it'll

29:45

it'll be more meaningful and it'll be more human.

29:47

But I like when things are

29:50

about other people. And I feel like that's

29:52

what you did with your book. And and

29:54

and that's why I thought, Oh, flower films

29:56

is better than Daisy because it's the whole

29:58

garden. It's everybody I like. things that

30:01

are for everybody. Well and

30:03

I have to note you're wearing a floured shirt right now.

30:06

I know. It's covered with flowers which I love. I have.

30:09

And also flower is a noun and a verb which

30:11

I hadn't thought about that until you're talking about

30:13

you are allowing things to flower.

30:15

Oh I love that. Many flowers. Yeah

30:18

yeah yeah. Flower films, flower wine, flower.

30:20

I mean it's in wildflowers such a

30:22

great title. Oh my gosh. Thank you.

30:24

I give credit to Jill again my

30:26

editor who I worked so closely with

30:28

and perfect and I'm not posing myself

30:31

as some ornate fancy flower because I'm

30:33

not. I'm a funny

30:35

little wildflower you

30:37

know. Perfect. It's perfect. I'm free. You

30:39

can grab me off the side

30:41

of the road. You say dandelions are one of

30:44

your favorite flowers. I

30:46

love dandelions. I see those commercials of

30:49

spray, the hills and I think why? You

30:52

know I am in the first line

30:54

of defense of flowers and dandelions you

30:56

know. Yes. Don't and make them

30:59

the pawns all you want but like

31:01

I love them. How dare you. Now

31:03

one of the things we talk about

31:06

a lot is the tendencies and so you took

31:08

the quiz, the online quiz, to see your tendency.

31:10

So what do you think your tendency is? I was

31:13

trying to figure that out as I was reading

31:15

the book. Well according to your test I'm

31:17

gonna obliger. Elizabeth that's what

31:19

I said. You did? I

31:21

did. And what are you and

31:23

Elizabeth? I'm an upholder. Okay. I'm

31:25

an obliger. I just thought you

31:27

might be a rebel because

31:31

you know some of the things in your book and

31:33

there is sort of a rebel obliger affinity.

31:36

Yeah affinity that happens. It's hard because

31:38

and I was talking about this with

31:40

Jill and she said well you know

31:43

ask them about this is that

31:46

the test was was I'm sure it's

31:48

tricky for everyone because nobody's all one

31:51

thing but I

31:53

really get things done when it's for

31:56

other people. Yeah. Like I just I'm

31:58

a faciller. I've made that clear. I'm

32:00

happy when people are, they've,

32:04

neon always said you keep your promises

32:06

in life and in this world as

32:09

she's sprinkled so many brilliant seeds in wisdom.

32:11

She sounded like an upholder to me. She,

32:14

I mean, to me, she's everything.

32:19

Because it's funny, for someone who's

32:21

like that wise and that together,

32:23

I find those people aren't

32:26

always the funnest also. Elizabeth,

32:28

what do you think about that? Yeah,

32:30

I always get on Gretchen about

32:32

being a bit of a killjoy. Oh, really?

32:36

Yes. In a living way. Yeah.

32:38

There can be kind of an element of. Is

32:41

that from like cynicism? Is that

32:43

from like worry

32:45

or fear? Is that just from?

32:48

It's from marching through the to-do list. It's like,

32:50

we don't have time for this because we've got

32:52

five things we need to get done. So we're

32:54

gonna just, and that feeling can

32:56

get in the way. Whereas obligers

32:58

tend to be more like, hey, I don't know,

33:01

there is an element I think of. I mean,

33:03

Elizabeth, it's plenty more fun than I am, anybody

33:05

would say. Well, I think you're

33:07

a lot of fun. There are moments, there

33:09

are just moments. But it also seemed to me

33:11

like, you seemed like an obliger in a way

33:13

where obligers often really do

33:17

best when there's a lot of external accountability. And

33:19

you seem to me to be describing yourself as

33:21

a child who longs for

33:23

structure and wanted

33:25

to have people who, and you sought

33:27

out these mentors and these guides who

33:29

could help you provide structure. So

33:32

you went about it in a very systematic way,

33:34

even from a very young age, because there was

33:36

nobody close to you in your life who was

33:38

providing that structure for you. And since it's hard

33:40

for obligers to create it for themselves, you

33:43

were kind of lost and searching. And it seems

33:45

like a lot of what you've done is to

33:47

figure out ways to create sort of the scaffolding,

33:51

to create the life that then you're meeting the

33:53

expectations of others, which are really the expectations

33:55

that you have for yourself. And

33:57

that's kind of the central obliger. struggle

34:00

it's I'm very accountable when it comes

34:03

to others, but like I you

34:06

know, I I just really fall

34:08

off the wagon and Consistency

34:10

is my biggest issue when it

34:12

comes to myself. Yeah, like

34:15

health diet exercise Yeah,

34:17

you know Anything in that

34:20

sort of take care of oneself It's

34:23

it's the first thing to fall off

34:25

the table, but I everything with work

34:28

gets done I'm like how am I

34:30

like? How do I

34:32

have cellulite going from the back of my knee

34:34

up to my shoulders and yet everything on the

34:37

work list was checked off? But like somehow

34:39

like I literally haven't gotten to the

34:41

gym in three weeks Like this is

34:43

unacceptable and then I will go whole

34:45

hog. I'll be there, you know

34:48

Five days a week for three months

34:50

and then the next three months. I

34:53

like will barely You

34:55

know wiggle a toe. It's a consistency

34:58

is a giant issue for me and

35:00

my life personally Professionally

35:04

obligation wise to others to my

35:07

family to what it's like it's

35:09

it's infallible Yeah, and it just

35:11

shocks me and you know, maybe

35:14

listen I saw like this I

35:16

got in trouble a lot because I was

35:18

trying to say like you can't have it

35:20

all and I Think women

35:22

felt like what do you mean? Like that's

35:24

not acceptable and I'm like, no no no

35:26

no like it's Then I'm not

35:28

saying it right because I Pippi

35:30

Longstocking in my spirit There

35:34

is no glass ceiling for women in my

35:36

perspective. I can't even see one and they

35:38

just don't exist and we've already

35:41

punched through them and Everyone

35:43

like has all the opportunities that maybe

35:45

you have to create them for yourselves

35:47

They don't fall into your lap, but

35:50

everyone can do anything. So Mason

35:52

found me this quote Yesterday

35:55

that I really loved and I

35:57

just wanted to share it which is that you

36:00

You can do anything, but you

36:02

can't do everything. And

36:04

it's like that's what I

36:06

try to sort of

36:09

live by is that the

36:11

possibilities are endless. There is

36:13

no end to them, but

36:16

everything all at once isn't

36:18

like quantum physics possible. And

36:21

I don't know how it is for

36:23

men, but I mean as

36:25

mothers and jugglers, I can

36:28

be really hard on myself about

36:31

how much I'm pulling off and able to

36:34

accomplish. So I guess in

36:36

some ways I'm the first thing I do

36:38

throw off the list just so that I

36:40

meet the criteria of everything and everyone else.

36:43

And then I wonder why

36:45

I can't fit into my jeans. I'm

36:47

like, oh, because you ate spaghetti bolognese

36:49

to an episode of The Good Wife

36:51

last night and didn't get to the

36:53

gym. I think a lot of moms

36:56

relate to that exact same thing. I

36:58

shared the whole, haven't gone to the gym in

37:00

three weeks thing. And it sort

37:02

of made me think there's this thing you write in

37:04

the book. Just let me read this and then we

37:07

can talk about it. You say, now

37:09

I'm just me and nobody wants to watch

37:11

a woman strive to be a normal mother

37:13

of two. Or maybe they do.

37:16

Is there enough drama in that? Well, there

37:18

is, but it might not be cinematic. This

37:22

whole notion of now being a mother

37:24

and the drama in that is, of

37:26

course, enormous for all of us who

37:28

are mothers. But how you

37:30

think it's affected where you are

37:33

in your career is interesting

37:35

to me and interesting to me that it

37:37

feels like it makes me see why you

37:39

like the Happiness Project because Gretchen's work is

37:41

all about sort of

37:44

the everyday. And

37:46

it's about being present. And

37:48

then it's the everyday challenge of

37:50

how do I balance waking

37:53

up with the kids. Now

37:55

I'm running companies so that I can be the kind

37:57

of mom I want to be and still, because I

38:00

want to show my kids that work

38:02

is fun and work ethic is important.

38:04

They'll be interning very early on in

38:06

life and earning summer money and learning

38:08

to do laundry. All the things

38:10

that I was forced to do really

38:12

set me on a good path. It

38:17

was funny when people would look at me

38:20

when I was younger and be like, oh,

38:22

God, your life was crazy. I'm like, no,

38:24

actually, there were a lot of things that

38:26

kicked my butt in the right direction, actually,

38:28

maybe not in the right way, but the

38:30

end result was really good. It was a

38:33

lot of self-discipline and figuring out

38:35

how to do things for yourself and coming

38:37

up with philosophies of why it's so important

38:39

to follow through or show up or keep

38:42

your promises as Nancy

38:44

eloquently put. I

38:48

loved reading your book because I just related to

38:50

it so much like I'm out of wipes. How

38:52

did I let that? How did that happen? That's

38:55

the most important thing in the world.

38:58

I'm wedding a paper towel and

39:01

MacGyvering this moment. Yes, I'm beating myself

39:03

up and then I suck and all

39:05

this stuff, but it's so

39:08

relatable. Oh, my

39:10

God, I didn't bring a fourth bottle, so

39:13

I'm running to a store to get milk. How

39:18

do I keep myself happy? How do

39:20

I organize my life? How

39:22

do I make everything conducive as a parent? How

39:24

do I organize my day so

39:26

that I'm going with the

39:28

kids to all the things I need to with

39:30

them to get to the meetings I need to

39:32

get to, maybe squeeze something in that's personally

39:35

satisfying or healthy to do for

39:37

myself. Do you have

39:39

a try this at home that you would suggest

39:42

for other people? The only thing I have which

39:44

goes back to your picture frame things is that

39:46

I write in the journal to my daughters every

39:48

day. I

39:51

suggest to people to write letters

39:54

on your birthday or your child's birthday and keep them

39:56

in a box and then when they're 18, present

39:59

them with this series. of letters or

40:01

any type of written documentation

40:04

of what the day was or

40:07

where you're at in life or where

40:09

you observe they're at because then they

40:11

can put a where you've been and

40:13

where you're at now and look

40:16

back on it and even the most mundane things

40:18

like we stayed at home today and you know

40:20

just had a cozy snow day inside of our

40:22

living room or we went to this museum or

40:24

we you know traveled to

40:26

this place and whatever

40:28

it is or you know today you

40:31

spoke your first word and it was

40:33

bird and I

40:35

know that that sounds like the bigger stuff

40:38

I'm trying to reach into the mundane you

40:40

know it turns out you don't like corn

40:42

anymore right right their life through your eyes

40:44

in a series of years is a very

40:46

powerful thing well that's a beautiful try this

40:48

at home thank you so thank you so

40:51

much for coming this is such a pleasure

40:53

I feel like we could talk all day

40:55

now you've got lots of fabulous stuff to

40:57

do I don't know much for coming but

40:59

I feel like I just need to say

41:01

thank you so much to both of you

41:04

because you have built a temple about

41:07

commercializing and celebrating the

41:09

emotion of happiness which

41:13

I love the happiness

41:15

project and I have

41:17

carried your book with me through countries

41:20

and cities and savored it and cherished

41:22

it and learned from

41:24

it and related to it and

41:26

been inspired by it and it's

41:28

not easy to build something as

41:31

impactful as what you guys have done

41:33

and I congratulate you and I thank

41:35

you oh well thank you thank you

41:37

so much you

41:48

Elizabeth wasn't that fun so fun

41:50

you know she's exactly what I

41:53

expected from her book no I know

41:55

exactly what you mean like she's she's

41:57

full of energy and she's so interested

42:00

I'm interested in everything and I

42:02

love that line about the rainbows or skittles. Yes.

42:06

Yes. It's like perfect summing up. Is it a rainbow

42:08

or is it a skittle? Yes. Small

42:11

panko cookbook. This

42:19

message is sponsored by Greenlight. As

42:21

your kids get older, some things about parenting

42:23

get easier. They can dress

42:26

themselves. They can clean up after

42:28

themselves, allegedly. Other things

42:30

don't, like having conversations about money. The

42:32

fact is kids won't really know how

42:34

to manage their money unless they're actually

42:36

in charge of it. That's

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Jack has Greenlight and one thing I

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We're back. Okay, Demerits and Gold

45:31

Stars. Elizabeth, you're up for a Demerit. Okay,

45:34

Gretch. This week, my

45:36

demerit is once again

45:38

in the arena of

45:40

Christmas decorations. I've

45:43

mentioned that Adam and I are doing

45:45

work on our house. Right now, we're

45:47

working on our guest bathroom. In

45:50

the closet of our guest bathroom is where

45:52

I keep all the Christmas decorations. And

45:54

right now, there's a sheet

45:57

of plastic over the doorway

45:59

to the closet to protect it.

46:02

And somehow that plastic is

46:04

like this barrier to entry

46:06

for me in terms of

46:09

getting my Christmas decorations. So

46:12

I feel like I can't

46:14

get my Christmas decorations or I'm using

46:16

it as a loophole not to get

46:18

out my Christmas decorations. So

46:20

I haven't decorated. Well, this

46:22

has to do with the strategy of

46:24

inconvenience. And it turns out that we're

46:26

anytime something is slightly more inconvenient, it

46:28

acts as a major deterrent. Like

46:30

even something that you're like, why does it matter? It

46:32

doesn't it doesn't even matter at all. And yet it

46:35

does matter. And that's why if

46:37

there's something we want to do, we

46:39

want to make it as convenient as

46:41

possible. Yeah, I should mention that the

46:43

same there's also plastic separating the treadmill

46:45

from the rest of the room.

46:48

And that also has been a hindrance to my

46:50

getting on the treadmill. So

46:53

the lesson is cut through the plastic. Yeah, do

46:55

it now. But fortunately, you're gonna go

46:57

to Kansas City where our mother has more

46:59

Christmas decorations than anyone can possibly imagine.

47:01

And so you will be surrounded by

47:03

Christmas here. Good enough. Yes. And so

47:06

will Jack. So that'll be great. Yeah.

47:08

All right, that's my demerit. What's your

47:10

gold star this week? So I want

47:12

to give a gold star to temporary

47:14

tattoos. I just love temporary tattoos. This

47:16

is like a new thing. They didn't

47:18

really have them when we were little.

47:20

We were really into scratch and sniffs,

47:22

which I think there's a lot to be done with scratch and

47:25

sniffs. But I really love

47:27

temporary tattoos because they're they're like such

47:29

a fun, quick hit. Yeah, you

47:31

know, they're they're cheap. They're

47:33

temporary. So you know, it's like a low

47:35

commitment. But everybody,

47:38

I mean, my daughters get a huge kick out

47:40

of them. They both have huge collections of temporary

47:42

tattoos. And I just feel like, you

47:44

know, sometimes my daughter, you know, if she's got a

47:46

big game for lacrosse, or she's got a big test,

47:48

they'll put on a temporary tattoo for luck. And I

47:50

don't know, I just think they're a fun, inexpensive,

47:54

little lift. Yeah. And they're getting

47:56

more and more creative all the

47:58

time, like in more interesting. They used

48:00

to just be kind of like the twosy ones that

48:02

you would get in your gift bag for a child's

48:04

party. But I just think

48:07

that they're sort of like a great little

48:09

thing. So gold star at temporary tattoos. And

48:13

that's it for this episode of Happier. Remember

48:15

to try this at home. Cultivate

48:18

an end-of-the-year ritual. What's

48:20

your ritual? Let us know. We need

48:22

ideas. We need end-of-year rituals ourselves. And

48:24

thank you to our fantastic guests, Drew

48:27

Barrymore. And you know what? I wanted

48:29

to mention my favorite line in her

48:31

book. And I forgot to bring it

48:33

up, which was she said about an

48:35

anecdote of this very kind of haunting anecdote. She

48:37

said, I haven't thought about this in

48:40

so long, but even so, it

48:42

haunts me daily. And

48:45

I just resonated with

48:47

me so much. So anyway,

48:49

the book Wildflower, it's fascinating.

48:52

I think I read it in one day. So

48:54

anyway, it was great to have her on the

48:56

show. And thank you to our

48:58

producer, Henry Milosky. Also, thanks to

49:00

Andy Bowers and Laura Mayer of

49:02

Panably. Get in touch.

49:04

Gretchen's on Twitter at Gretchen Rubin

49:06

and I'm at Elizabeth Craft. Our

49:09

email address is podcast at gretchenrubin.com.

49:11

If you like this show, please

49:13

be sure to tell a friend

49:15

and subscribe to us on iTunes. And

49:18

remember, the paperback of Better Than Before

49:20

is in stores now. And if you

49:22

want to see a free chapter, get

49:24

a little teaser, go to happyocast.com/free chapter

49:27

to get a free chapter. Until next

49:29

week, I'm Elizabeth Craft. And I'm Gretchen

49:31

Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Hope to

49:34

see you in San Francisco on January

49:36

21st at our first live event onward

49:40

and upward. Well,

49:50

we hope you're feeling more happier after

49:52

this episode. We had so much

49:54

fun revisiting this fascinating conversation. It

49:56

was fun to go back to

49:59

that time. We hope you enjoyed

50:01

it. Remember, the best time

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to start a happiness project is

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