2:00

Once you see these patterns, you see them

2:03

in the office. They're often very obvious with

2:05

children at a very young age. Like they're

2:07

really kind of easy to spot once you

2:09

notice the pattern. And so what's great about

2:11

that is that then you can harness

2:14

that in order to achieve an aim,

2:16

whether for yourself or for somebody else, instead of getting

2:18

lost in this thing of like, well, one

2:20

person's right or one person has the better way.

2:23

It's like, well, we can all

2:25

learn from each other, but maybe if this doesn't work for

2:27

you, what are some other ways to try it? Understanding

2:31

people who are different from us, understanding

2:34

our kids who are different

2:37

from us, is one of the hardest things in life.

2:40

If you're like me, there's a certain way you go about the

2:42

world. So for me, I tend to

2:44

kind of like rules. I like knowing what's

2:46

expected from me and I have expectations for

2:48

myself. And when people tell

2:51

me, hey, I'd like you to do something,

2:53

as long as it's reasonable, I'm happy to

2:55

oblige. I'm actually happy to know what they

2:57

expect. Well, I know I have a kid

2:59

and I have certain friends who

3:01

are completely different. Like, why are you

3:03

asking so many questions? It's not that

3:05

complicated. And one

3:07

of the things I've recently unpacked

3:10

was a new way to understand these

3:12

differences. And it has been mind-blowingly helpful

3:15

to me. And I can't wait to

3:17

share it with you. Today

3:19

on the pod, I'm talking to Gretchen

3:21

Rubin. She is one

3:23

of today's most influential and thought-provoking observers

3:26

of happiness and human nature. She's

3:28

the author of many New York Times

3:30

bestselling books, and she hosts

3:33

the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast.

3:36

I can't wait for you to hear our

3:38

discussion on the different tendencies people have and

3:40

how to use that information in a very

3:43

practical, helpful way in your real

3:45

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keep a New Year's resolution or your

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8:05

So depending on whether we meet

8:07

or resist, outer and inner

8:09

expectations, that's what makes us an

8:11

upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or

8:13

a rebel. So when you

8:15

look at someone who's an upholder, they

8:18

readily meet outer and inner expectations. So

8:20

these are the people who meet the

8:22

school deadline and remember to pack their

8:24

gym clothes without much fuss. They wanna

8:26

know what other people expect from them,

8:28

but their expectations for themselves are just

8:30

as important. So their motto is,

8:32

discipline is my freedom. So this is

8:34

like Hermione Granger. Then

8:36

there are questioners. Questioners question all

8:39

expectations. They do something if they

8:41

think it makes sense. So they

8:43

resist anything arbitrary, ineffective, unjustified, that

8:46

doesn't have a purpose. They tend

8:48

to love to customize. They're

8:50

very focused on reason. So these are

8:52

the people, you know, you're like, Hugh

8:54

has too many questions, because what's

8:57

happening is if it meets their inner standard, if

8:59

it makes sense to them, they will do it

9:01

no problem. But if it fails their inner standard,

9:03

they'll push back. So their motto

9:06

is, I'll comply if you

9:08

convince me why. Then

9:11

there are obligers. Obligers are people who

9:13

readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle

9:15

to meet inner expectations. And I'll just

9:18

say, this is the biggest tendency for

9:20

both men and women. This

9:22

is the biggest tendency. You either are an obliger,

9:24

you have many obligers in your life. So these

9:27

are people who are like, why can I keep

9:29

my promises to other people, but I can't keep

9:31

my promises to myself? These are people who are

9:33

really good with external expectations, but when it comes

9:35

to something that they want to do for themselves,

9:38

they struggle. They're really great at going the

9:40

extra mile for other people, but

9:43

they often become very frustrated with themselves.

9:45

And the secret for them is to

9:47

create outer accountability, even for something that's

9:49

an inner expectation. And so

9:51

their motto is, you can

9:54

count on me, and I'm counting on you to

9:56

count on me. And

9:58

then finally, rebels, rebels resist. all

10:00

expectations outer and inner alike. And Becky, I have

10:02

to say, I was thinking about the Rebel Tendency

10:04

some episodes of years ago because somebody was describing

10:06

a child and I'm like, that might

10:08

be a Rebel child. So Rebels do

10:10

what they wanna do in their own

10:12

way, in their own time. They can

10:14

do anything they want to do, anything

10:16

they choose to do, but

10:19

if you ask or tell them to do something,

10:21

they're very likely to resist. And typically they don't tell

10:23

themselves what to do. They're like, I'm not gonna sign

10:25

up for a 10 a.m. swim class on Saturday because

10:28

just the fact that somebody's gonna expect me to show

10:30

up is gonna annoy me. And I don't know what

10:32

I'm gonna feel like doing on Saturday anyway. So

10:35

their motto is, you can't make me and

10:37

neither can I. And

10:39

then when you know these tendencies, it

10:41

really can help you be a more

10:44

effective parent and more effective at managing

10:46

yourself because I mean, and you talk

10:48

about this all the time, people are

10:50

different and to manage ourselves, we

10:52

have to know ourselves. There's

10:55

so many things I wanna jump into. One of the things

10:57

I love and I love about your site and I love

10:59

the way you profile also other people and you do this

11:01

in the book is you don't

11:03

have judgment. You're not like, everyone should

11:05

be this. Absolutely. We have our tendencies,

11:07

there are pros and cons. And to

11:09

me, actually, I often say this to

11:11

friends, my favorite adult friends are

11:14

just the people who know themselves and they can

11:16

kind of have levity with themselves, they can talk

11:18

about that. Obviously I

11:20

believe we can change, but to some degree,

11:22

it's like, hey, this is me. And I'm

11:24

also curious about myself and non-defensive, but

11:27

I love that your book takes that approach,

11:29

which for everyone listening, you should

11:31

know there's like no shame. Like you will actually

11:33

just be like, wow, this is really useful as

11:35

a framework and then set of strategies, no one's

11:37

trying to change me. I'm just gonna become like

11:40

a more effective me. Well,

11:42

absolutely. And that's one thing I tell people over,

11:44

because people are like, well, what's the best tendency

11:46

or the most successful tendency? I'm like, it's

11:49

not that one tendency is better than the others

11:51

because they all have strengths and weaknesses and the

11:53

strengths are the weaknesses, right? They go together. Always.

11:56

But it's the people who know themselves and they're like, well,

11:58

I know what I need. to

12:00

succeed or I know what is likely to trip me

12:02

up and therefore I'm gonna set up my circumstances and

12:04

my schedule and my surroundings in a way that's gonna

12:06

help me achieve my aim. And one of the things

12:08

that's nice about the tendencies is I think a lot

12:10

of times people feel very, they

12:13

feel very discouraged or they feel like, why is

12:15

it that other people can be adults? And like,

12:18

I just can't like, everybody else can

12:20

just get up and go for a run every morning. Why can't

12:22

I do that? Like what's wrong with me? And it's like, oh,

12:24

a lot of people are in the same boat. There's

12:26

so many solutions that people have come up

12:28

with. You do not need to change. This

12:31

is just a thing. There's good aspects to it. There's bad

12:33

aspect. And now you can focus on like, how

12:36

to move forward to get what you want instead of feeling like

12:38

there's something wrong with you. Love that. I had a harness. So

12:40

let's jump into one of these tendencies, the obligers. I hear about

12:42

this group a lot. I hear about a lot of from moms.

12:45

I have the PTA meeting. I have my

12:48

kids soccer practice. I have carpools planned out

12:50

in my calendar to the wazoo and forever.

12:52

I've told myself one day a week, I

12:54

wanna take a walk around my

12:56

neighborhood without my kid. Or

12:59

I want to meet a friend. Like there's

13:01

something for me and why can't I do

13:03

it? And I feel

13:05

like this might be a bludger ask. Yes.

13:08

Yes. So from your framework, yeah,

13:11

like can you walk through this a little

13:13

bit or how, I've kind of said the

13:15

things you figured out could help this person

13:17

harness their strengths to get what they want.

13:20

Yes. So

13:22

what you described is like exactly what obligers

13:24

will express. They often say, I can't draw

13:26

boundaries. I'm really bad at self care. I

13:28

come through for other people, but why can't

13:30

I like take time for myself or whatever

13:33

it might be? So the key

13:35

to remember is that you need to create

13:37

outer accountability, even for an inner

13:39

expectation. So you can't think about self care or

13:41

priorities or putting yourself first. You have to think

13:43

about, well, how can I create outer accountability? So

13:45

let's say you wanna go for a walk in

13:47

the park. How would you create outer accountability for

13:49

that? You might go with a friend who'll be

13:51

disappointed if you don't show up. You might take your

13:54

dog who's gonna be really disappointed because it's a highlight

13:56

of your dog's day. You might think of your duty

13:58

to your future self if you come to the... end

14:00

of the year and you haven't been doing this, you're

14:02

going to be really disappointed with yourself. Maybe you're not

14:04

going to have those benefits that you would have had

14:06

in terms of mood regulation, energy, being out in the

14:09

sunshine, all these things. You might think of your duty

14:11

to be a role model for someone else. I want

14:13

to show my children, I want to show the people

14:15

around me what it looks like to take time for

14:18

yourself. If I don't do it, then they're going to

14:20

think, talk away but actions are louder than words and

14:22

I don't see you doing that. I need to model

14:24

the behavior. You talk a lot about modeling behavior. I

14:26

need to model the behavior that I'm talking about. In

14:29

these ways, you create outer accountability even for

14:31

an inner expectation. Sometimes, I'm like, just feel

14:34

like it's somehow weak that

14:36

they shouldn't need to rely on outer

14:38

accountability. I'm like, you're the biggest group.

14:40

There's a ton of people who need

14:42

outer accountability. There's nothing wrong with that.

14:44

Just figure out what works for you.

14:46

Because for some people taking a

14:48

class is a really great way to get outer

14:51

accountability. For some people, that doesn't work. So you

14:53

really have to tinker it to yourself, but realizing

14:55

that the outer accountability is what is needed even

14:57

for an inner expectation. There's

14:59

two things that come to mind. Number one is there's

15:02

no morality. There's no morality here. There's no

15:04

better, there's no morality. Something

15:06

I say to parents a lot when they're stuck with their kids, and

15:08

it just made me think of this, is the

15:11

solution is always in the problem. My

15:14

kid is always saying, boop, boop, boop at the table.

15:16

I'm like, stop. Well, what if I just told them,

15:18

let's go to the bathroom and say, boop, boop, boop.

15:21

Feel free, say it all you want. I'll say it

15:23

too, and then we'll get that out of our system.

15:26

The solution is in the problem. What

15:28

you're saying is if someone's saying, my

15:30

problem is I can't engage in self-care,

15:32

I'm so good at doing things for

15:34

other people and bad for myself, I

15:36

love the light bulb of like, wait

15:38

a second, I just heard what I'm

15:40

good at. So maybe that's my solution.

15:42

The impact on my body, whether I

15:44

take a walk because I've just

15:46

said, I deserve it, or I take

15:48

a walk because I told my friend I wanted to,

15:50

and I made them text me to get it done.

15:53

That's great. The walk is

15:55

the walk. My body doesn't

15:57

feel that different. a

16:00

means to an end and the idea that

16:02

we, you're saying like, obligers have natural

16:06

ability, a tendency

16:08

ability to get

16:10

certain things done. Let's use that for your

16:13

benefit. Absolutely. So my

16:15

type is upholder. That's

16:17

the one that readily meets outer and inner expectations and

16:19

there's pros to that and cons to that. But we

16:21

often give each other bad advice because we're coming from

16:24

our own tendency. So it used to be that obligers

16:26

would say to me things like, well,

16:28

now I exercise because I know I need to stay

16:30

healthy for my kids. I would be

16:32

like, well, don't do it for your kids, do it

16:34

for you because this is important for you. You don't

16:36

need to bring somebody else into it. But I realized

16:38

that's actually a really good pattern of thinking for

16:40

obligers that's really helping them to do

16:43

something for themselves because they're invoking that

16:45

outer accountability. So who am I to

16:47

tell somebody that what they're doing is

16:49

wrong? It works for them. So again,

16:51

it's like people are often

16:54

being like, well, you shouldn't do that or you should do

16:56

that. It's like, well, maybe you should or maybe you shouldn't

16:58

because you might be coming from a very different place. You

17:00

know, I think that's pointing out like

17:03

a really big blind spot for me too because,

17:06

okay, reveal, I am also an upholder. I

17:11

kind of thought that. I have to

17:13

say, I suspected that. You know

17:15

what? I feel like I

17:17

have parts of others. I don't have that big of

17:19

a part of an obliger. I'm going to be honest,

17:22

that part's not that big. It used to be, but

17:25

I definitely have a part of me. Maybe that's

17:27

not a rebel, but I definitely have a questioning

17:29

part of me. But, you know, I was actually

17:31

talking about my husband. He's like, that motto, discipline

17:33

is my freedom. He's like, Becky, that is literally

17:35

you. Like that is exactly you. Right. So I

17:38

talk about self care a lot. And to me, one of the

17:40

key things our kids need is a parent

17:42

who feels sturdy and that to me

17:44

always involves tapping into our non-caregiver parts.

17:46

If the only part of us left

17:49

is caregiving of others, that

17:51

always gets in our way. Ironically, of being a good caregiver

17:53

because we're so overwhelmed and depleted, et cetera. And one of

17:55

the things I say a lot is people will say to

17:58

me, I go out to dinner with my friends. because

18:00

it's really good for my kids

18:02

to see. And hearing you say

18:04

this, I think my natural reaction would

18:06

be like, I'd feel like I need to

18:08

motivate them. Like, what? Like, you just deserve

18:10

dinner. Like, you just, you know. But I

18:12

love what you're saying. That's like very Becky

18:15

centric. Like, okay, Becky, you're just speaking

18:17

to yourself. Like, you're not speaking to

18:19

a mirror. You're speaking to someone different

18:21

from you and maybe respect that this

18:24

is their framework and that's useful. And

18:26

like, who am I to change that

18:28

narrative? Well, and when I was

18:30

writing about happiness, like I was always struck by

18:32

people who would just, something that

18:35

would seem easy to me would be a struggle

18:37

for them or they would have a completely different

18:39

approach to it. And then finally I started to

18:41

see that there were these patterns. And once you

18:43

see these patterns, you see them in the office.

18:45

They're often very obvious with children at a very

18:47

young age. Like, they're really kind of

18:50

easy to spot once you notice the pattern.

18:52

And so what's great about that is that

18:54

then you can harness that in

18:56

order to achieve an aim, whether for yourself

18:58

or for somebody else, instead of getting lost

19:00

in this thing of like, well,

19:03

one person's right or one person has the better

19:05

way. It's like, well, we can

19:07

all learn from each other, but maybe if this doesn't

19:09

work for you, what are some other ways to try

19:11

it? So let's move to kids. Let's, you know, I

19:13

don't know, your kid, I said, why do

19:15

I have to, why do I have to? Why do I

19:17

have to? Like, you know, I'm knocking at cavities,

19:19

right? Like we have these like difficult moments. I'm

19:22

wondering if kids, if those are questioners,

19:24

like I want to do what I want to

19:26

do and you better convince me, you know,

19:28

or if those are rebels or like, let's

19:31

walk through some like difficult parenting moments with

19:33

kids in terms of the tendencies. Yes.

19:35

So if you have an upholder child, these children

19:38

are pretty easy and like, they are the ones

19:40

that are going to be focused on getting their

19:42

homework on time and like feeding their fish. One

19:45

thing you will see kind of negative, that can

19:47

be negative for upholders is they can get like

19:49

really uptight. Like the teacher says that I

19:51

have to read for half an hour tonight. And yeah, we went

19:53

to see grandma and grandpa and it's

19:56

11 30 at night, but I need to read because

19:58

my teacher says I have to. It's hard for them

20:00

sometimes to. understand when rules need

20:02

to be adjusted. The teacher will

20:04

never know. So

20:06

you as an adult need to frame it. But

20:09

the thing is you don't want to say things

20:11

like the teacher will never know. That's not reassuring

20:13

to an upholder. An upholder is like, we are

20:15

respecting the expectation and say, the teacher will understand

20:17

that if you are exhausted, you will not be

20:20

able to learn in class tomorrow. I promise you

20:22

that if you ask your teacher what she would

20:24

think you should do, she would say, get a

20:26

good night's sleep and then you'll be, you

20:29

want to frame it in what resonates with

20:31

them. Because a rebel parent might be like,

20:34

oh, it's great. Like, who cares? Like, let's stick it

20:36

to the teacher. And it's like, to an upholder, they'd

20:38

be like, oh my gosh. I can't, you know, they

20:40

can't handle that. And then they can also sometimes be

20:42

like, it's hard for them to like, schedules change. They

20:44

can be rigid, even as children,

20:46

certainly as adults, I'll say that as an

20:49

upholder. So for them, they're

20:51

the ones that are pretty easy to

20:53

manage in terms of meeting outer and

20:55

inner expectations because that's, you

20:57

want to make sure that they don't sort of get

20:59

too hard on themselves. Too rigid and too hard. Too

21:01

rigid and too hard on themselves. And you want to

21:04

give them like a lot of like notice, like this

21:06

is what's going to happen this weekend. Like they tend

21:08

to really respond well to that. Questioners need reasons. They

21:10

need to have a reason for what

21:12

they're doing. And if they understand the reason, they will get

21:14

on board. If they don't have a reason, they will not

21:16

get on board. And a very poignant example I heard of

21:18

this was a questioner man was telling

21:21

me how when he was young, he was on the

21:23

soccer team and he loved soccer. He played goalie and

21:25

he had a great coach. Then they got

21:27

a new coach and the coach was like, okay, I have

21:29

all these, you know, all these drills that everybody's going to

21:31

do. And this kid went up

21:33

to him and said, hey, I don't think

21:35

I should do those drills because I'm a goalie and I have

21:37

such a different position that I'm playing. And the coach was like,

21:40

listen, kid, I'm the coach. Everybody does

21:42

these drills. And the kid quit

21:44

because he's like, that doesn't make any sense. But

21:47

if the coach had said to him, hey, I get

21:49

it. It seems like you really have a

21:51

different position, but I've studied the training of

21:54

all the best teams and they show that

21:56

accuracy and speed and endurance are important no

21:58

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learning program out there at the

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best price. examples

34:00

I heard of a rebel child is, so I have

34:02

a podcast happier with Gretchen Rubin, and sometimes people have

34:04

questions. And a woman said, I'm an

34:06

upholder. I have a little, little kid who is a

34:08

rebel. How do I get her to understand that there

34:11

are some things you just have to do? Like you

34:13

have to wash your hands after you use the potty.

34:16

And my answer to her was like, you don't have

34:18

to wash your hands after you use the potty. You

34:21

don't. And your little girl has figured this out, and you cannot

34:23

stand by her side for the next 75 years

34:25

and make her do it. So you're going to have

34:27

to help her as a rebel decide that for her

34:29

own reasons, this is what she wants to do. It's

34:32

part of her identity. It's part of consequences, whatever. So

34:35

the interesting thing though is she emailed back

34:37

and she said, oh, that was really helpful

34:39

to me as an upholder dealing with rebel.

34:42

But here's how it played out. So this

34:44

mother and daughter had gone to the mother's

34:46

grandmother. So this was the little girl's great

34:49

grandmother's house who was very, very frail and

34:51

had just gotten out of the hospital. And

34:54

her daughter was running around and

34:56

she said, I realized I couldn't say to my daughter,

34:58

you have to stop running. I

35:00

can't make her stop running. And so she said to her little

35:03

girl, great grandma is so

35:05

frail. It would be so terrible if she

35:07

fell or something bad happened to her. She

35:09

needs her protectors. Can you

35:11

be one of her protectors? And

35:13

the little girl said, yes, I

35:16

can be one of her protectors. And then she

35:18

was so gentle with her great grandmother because it

35:20

went to this idea of identity and choice. This

35:22

is who this little girl wanted to be. It's

35:24

what she chose. She was from

35:27

freedom and choice. She was choosing

35:29

to act in a certain way,

35:31

but just ordering them kind

35:34

of ignites the spirit of resistance. And so that

35:36

can be really hard as a parent because we

35:38

spend a lot of times telling our kids what

35:40

to do. Yes. And I don't

35:42

know if one of my kids is full

35:44

rebel, but definitely has that. And to me,

35:47

saying to him, I wonder how we can

35:49

solve this problem. I wonder

35:52

if anyone in this room has an idea.

35:54

It's very different. Exactly is choice. That's exactly

35:56

right. Yeah.

35:58

So with rebels, what helps? is you give them choice

36:01

and freedom. So do you want to do it now

36:03

or later? Do you want this one or that one?

36:05

Part of it is identity. Oh, you're an animal lover.

36:08

You're a musician. You're so creative.

36:10

Like you're an athlete because then

36:13

actions follow identity. You can help them as a

36:16

parent, like lean into an identity. Or you give

36:18

them information consequences choice, which is like, if

36:20

we leave by 8 a.m., you won't get in

36:22

trouble. If we leave after 8 a.m., you will

36:24

get in trouble. It's up to you. Do

36:27

you feel like those kids though? Because I feel like those

36:29

kids, you give them those consequences and they

36:31

kind of like put their finger up at you. They're like,

36:33

I don't care. I remember my youngest

36:35

being like, it was not my proudest moment as parents.

36:38

Definitely not what I stand for. Not because I think

36:40

it doesn't feel good for kids. Because I actually think

36:42

long term it doesn't, it's not effective.

36:44

But I remember saying to him, it was something like,

36:47

I am going to take away all of your stuffed animals

36:49

if you don't, you know. And it's not like they were

36:51

comfort objects, but you freaking loved his stuffed animals. And

36:54

I will never forget Gretchen. I think he

36:56

was four. He walked

36:59

into his room, this child, my third child. He

37:01

opens his closet. I'm witnessing this. He pushes

37:04

a stool, like a little step

37:06

stool there, steps on it, takes

37:08

down a mini suitcase, puts

37:11

all of his stuffed animals in it, zips

37:13

it, and wheels it to me. And

37:15

he goes, here you go. I

37:17

was like, wow, I just got played. Oh my goodness, I

37:19

just got played. He was like, oh, you want to take

37:22

away my stuffed animals? I will just,

37:24

I will make that easier for you

37:26

to show you how much you do

37:28

not exert any power over me

37:30

in that way, right? That

37:33

is such a compelling

37:35

example. Wow. He

37:37

was four? Four. I mean, this child, I can't

37:39

even tell you, is, I mean, is my third.

37:41

So he gets less, he is

37:43

just so competent. Like, he doesn't ask for

37:45

help with anything. He's like, his life story

37:47

is like, I can figure this out by

37:49

myself. And he can in a way that

37:51

he sometimes like prepares breakfast for his 12-year-old

37:53

brother, like literally, but at the same time,

37:55

because that is such a part of his

37:58

identity, his competence. Yes. Where.

38:00

Like, here, to me, even,

38:02

like, I don't like these threats of punishments.

38:04

Like, I just think there's better ways. But

38:07

I have found with him, where my older

38:09

one, my upholder, he's so guilt-prone that the

38:11

threat of, it's not the punishment. He just

38:13

would be so upset that I'd be disappointed

38:16

in him that he'd want to avoid that

38:18

distress, but not good later

38:20

on, people-pleasing stuff. But, right, like, for

38:22

my youngest, a rebel, like, I

38:25

don't even think it would work. I've seen it

38:27

not work. But here's the thing, though, that's the

38:29

difference between punishments and consequences. So, taking away his

38:31

stuffed animals is a punishment. But a consequence is

38:33

like, this is just the natural thing that is

38:35

gonna happen. If you are late, you will be

38:37

in trouble, because your coach says everybody has to

38:39

be there on time. Got it. Not like, I'm

38:41

making you in trouble. Like, if you get late,

38:43

your coach might not start. Like, just that's information

38:45

for you to digest. Right. It's like, if you

38:47

don't hand in your book report, then

38:49

you're gonna get a really bad grade. And if you get

38:52

a really bad grade, then you're not gonna be able to,

38:54

like, go on the class trip. It's like, and then you

38:56

can't rescue. You know what I mean? I

38:58

mean, it's something where, like, a lot of times, we want to swoop in

39:00

at the last time. Like, okay, honey, you can stay up until 10.30, finishing

39:03

it, because I know it's really important. And it's like, no,

39:06

because you had a week to do it, and

39:08

part of the assignment was to, like, partner, you

39:10

know, to do it along the way. Whatever. So,

39:13

we can't rescue. That's what

39:15

adult rebels will say. Do not

39:17

rescue a rebel child. They

39:19

learn consequences as they

39:22

happen. And if you protect them

39:24

from consequences, well, then that works for them

39:26

great. And

39:28

I think that is so right, and this is helping me

39:30

put so much more context to things that I have figured

39:32

out with my youngest, like, are really helpful. And

39:35

what's interesting, though, Gretchen, is I really do

39:37

see this softening of that tendency. So, that's

39:39

why, like, you and I could have many

39:41

more discussions out there. I really do feel

39:43

like what happened at four, like, even that

39:45

hardening, it's really not there in

39:48

the same way. He's still him, and I'm

39:50

obsessed with him, because he's gonna be a

39:52

leader one day, right? But one of the

39:54

lines, especially when he was younger, that always

39:56

helped. He'd be like, let's say, you

39:58

know, I don't know.