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From NPR, this is Invisibilia. I'm

0:21

Yo-Wei Shah. Welcome to the

0:23

Goodbye Show. And,

0:26

you know, it's not like we want to say

0:29

goodbye. NPR is

0:31

stopping production of Invisibilia

0:33

because of a massive budget shortfall.

0:37

But that's the thing about goodbyes.

0:40

They are often forced upon you. Sometimes

0:43

rudely. And they're just

0:45

hard. So

0:48

our team is saying our goodbyes by

0:50

doing what Invisibilia does best.

0:53

Thinking hard about them. And

0:56

we reached out to you, our listeners, for

0:58

help. Hey there. Hello

1:00

Invisibilia. You asked about goodbyes.

1:03

And you did not disappoint. I

1:06

am currently in the middle of saying goodbye. My

1:08

goodbye is one that

1:10

everybody saw coming.

1:11

Trouble letting things go. I've

1:14

never let goodbyes. But who does really, right?

1:17

We heard an objection to using the word goodbye

1:19

in general. On Treaty 7 territory,

1:21

where I reside, the Blackfoot people do not

1:23

say goodbye. But instead, Gidamatsin,

1:26

which means see you later, because

1:28

goodbye is reserved for death. Speaking

1:31

of death, there was a lot of death

1:33

in our inbox. Dying family members.

1:36

Dying friends. Dying pets. I'm

1:39

in the process of saying goodbye

1:41

to my 19-year-old cat,

1:44

Sunfer.

1:47

Sorry.

1:49

There was a goodbye to a bad job. Felt

1:51

like a toxic relationship. To romantic

1:54

relationships. We had some wins.

1:56

We had some losses. The season

1:58

is now over.

2:00

And that's okay. Also

2:02

a goodbye to a breast implant that went bad.

2:04

I put the breast implant in a display, case,

2:08

jar, thing. And surprisingly

2:10

for NPR, we only got one haiku.

2:13

Bye for now, but not

2:16

forever. Wait, see, listen.

2:21

Then there's the listener who

2:24

did a very invisibility thing and

2:26

said goodbye to her childhood home by

2:28

recording her favorite sounds of it. Like

2:31

the way the stairs would creak walking up them.

2:36

The closing of her bedroom door. Or

2:40

something as small as a light switch. Likes

2:42

to switch quick. Got a lot

2:44

of gusto. The light, however,

2:47

was always a bit delayed and then eventually

2:49

stopped working entirely. But

2:51

the switch, it was a good

2:53

switch. So

3:01

today on the show, before NPR turns the lights off on us, we've

3:04

got stories from the team and

3:06

from you, our listeners, all meditations on

3:08

navigating these tricky moments of departure.

3:11

But first, a message from my co-host Kia. Okay,

3:18

let's get some of that sound of

3:20

boxes. Okay, let's get some of that sound

3:23

of boxes.

3:24

Okay, let's get some of that sound of boxes.

3:29

Kia's packing up to move right now, but

3:31

she wanted to say goodbye. This is just

3:33

a little note to say thank you to everyone.

3:36

I have a really deep gratitude to firstly

3:38

you, the listener, for

3:42

tuning in, for writing

3:44

us, for tweeting, for sending messages,

3:47

just really engaging with

3:49

the stuff that we make and letting us know

3:51

that you like it and appreciate it. I'm

3:54

so grateful for that. I'm grateful

3:56

for all the many, many people who have worked

3:58

and

3:58

helped me.

3:59

this show including

4:03

my co-host Yo-H.A.L. who helped

4:05

usher in this new era of invisibility.

4:08

Thank you to the people who first made this

4:10

show, Elise and Lulu and Hannah.

4:15

And yeah, I'm just over here packing boxes.

4:18

Endings

4:20

can be hard but they can also be

4:22

opportunities. And so that's how I'm

4:24

taking it. I'm taking this ending as

4:26

an opportunity for a completely new

4:29

and different

4:29

beginning and

4:32

I'm looking forward to it. Keep

4:35

in touch. Don't be a stranger.

4:38

You can

4:40

find me on the internets. Just

4:42

search Kia Miyaka-Nates or Miyaka-Nates.

4:46

You'll find me. On some

4:48

adventure near the water.

4:59

Of course Kia, you'll be by the water.

5:02

Thank you for helping me spearhead this new

5:05

era of invisibility. I'm

5:07

so excited to hear where this new adventure takes

5:09

you.

5:16

Okay, our

5:18

first story comes to us from

5:21

producer Andrew Mambo. Hey Andrew,

5:25

welcome to the Goodbye Show. Hey Yo-H.

5:28

I come bearing gifts. Oh, okay,

5:30

I love a gift. I got fun stories.

5:33

I went through the listener emails and during

5:35

this time, what I really needed was some

5:38

levity, some laughs. So

5:40

I kind of found myself diving into this

5:42

particular subset of funny

5:44

stories about goodbyes, which was the awkward

5:46

goodbyes.

5:47

There is something so delicious

5:50

about the awkward goodbye as

5:52

long as you are not the person responsible

5:54

for

5:57

everybody else involved. It's

5:59

truly a gift. Oh, yeah, they're

6:01

the best. That's why I want to share with you a few of

6:03

my favorite awkward goodbyes from listeners

6:06

You

6:06

ready? Yeah, let's do it Okay,

6:09

so we heard from one listener who

6:11

the morning after a cute guy stayed over. She

6:14

had to poop Uh-huh, and you know,

6:17

she's trying to be polite but also

6:20

you know, like

6:21

Trying to get the guy out the door makes

6:23

sense. Yeah, and he's just

6:26

kind of not getting the hint He's lingering

6:28

taking a sweet time in

6:30

the end. She finally ends up just yelling

6:32

at him to go

6:34

There's like me

6:36

in meetings that go long

6:39

and I have to pee But

6:41

like I can't yell because we

6:43

are in a workplace. So I just start bouncing on

6:46

my bouncing ball chair. I Don't

6:48

know if you've noticed.

6:49

Yeah notice you do that in

6:51

meetings sometimes. Well, that's what's happening I'm

6:54

doing a silent version of a yell Via

6:57

bounce. Okay Good

6:59

to know I'll make a note of that for this last week Yeah

7:04

All right So

7:05

another story we got was from a listener that

7:07

took place in high school and you know That's

7:09

already an awkward time. Mm-hmm. And

7:11

one day their dad tells them Hey, we're gonna be

7:14

moving away at the end of the school year. So

7:16

this person is kind of devastated They're leaving all their friends.

7:18

They decide they're gonna make the perfect goodbye and

7:21

they spend months making a stop-motion

7:24

Animated film

7:26

that they play on the last day of school.

7:28

It's the perfect goodbye All the friends

7:30

are like emotional and then

7:32

over the summer the dad comes back and says

7:35

hey actually we're not moving You're going back

7:37

to school And so they start the school year

7:40

and all the friends and everybody in the school keeps

7:42

being like didn't you leave? Why are you still here?

7:44

Oh

7:45

my god, that is a nightmare.

7:47

This person was just trying to

7:49

get an A and saying goodbye Like

7:52

doing it in the most thoughtful Nice

7:55

way ever right? They're probably

7:57

still processing that one, huh?

7:59

Yeah Super awkward.

8:01

Okay, this last story

8:03

is like next level. It's just straight

8:06

slapstick awkward.

8:07

This happened like 15 years ago. This

8:09

listener, Megan Sheehan, she was living in

8:11

San Francisco at the time. Her friend

8:14

Michael came to town. They were close

8:16

friends in high school and it actually hooked up a

8:18

little, and they kept in touch over

8:20

the years. So when he

8:22

comes to town, he invites her out to brunch

8:24

with his current boyfriend and a group of friends.

8:27

She's like, yes, of course. I'd love to see you

8:30

and meet your new boyfriend.

8:31

But she's a little nervous

8:34

because it's been a long time,

8:36

and she wants to make a good impression.

8:38

So she takes a little extra time getting

8:40

ready. I'm sure it took me an

8:43

hour or two to get ready. But

8:45

almost immediately, things kind of start going laugh.

8:48

Like back then, Megan was

8:50

a punctual person.

8:52

So she gets there, she's trying to be early,

8:55

but when she arrives, she sees that everybody's already

8:57

seated. So she's thrown off

8:59

her game from the jump. Right,

9:01

exactly. And then they order

9:04

pancakes with bacon

9:06

on the side, like bring the syrup,

9:09

like give me as much sugar

9:11

as you can, you know?

9:13

And the rest of the table's ordering salads

9:15

and grain bowls. What kind of brunch is that? Why

9:17

are you paying for brunch if you're only going

9:19

to get salad? I'm with you. Yeah,

9:22

I do think the salad people are coming

9:24

for you. So she

9:27

tries to chat with her friend's boyfriend, but

9:29

they have nothing in common, so the

9:32

conversation isn't going so great. It's just

9:34

kind of flat.

9:35

His body language was sort

9:37

of turned towards his friend.

9:40

It definitely felt like

9:42

he just wasn't really interested in chatting. Poor

9:45

Megan. Yeah, I know. So

9:48

the table gets cleared and brunch is coming to an end.

9:51

She's like, you know, this has not been great. It's probably

9:54

just going to leave. And she decides

9:56

to stop by the bathroom, and as she's coming

9:58

back from the bathroom...

9:59

she sees Michael's boyfriend, who

10:02

she had been having difficulty connecting with. She

10:04

decides to stop and say, hey,

10:06

it was really nice meeting you.

10:08

And then she doesn't

10:11

really have anything else to say after that. So

10:13

she's kind of just standing there awkwardly. And

10:16

so I sort of step

10:18

closer to him and

10:21

like just

10:23

sort of press my body up against his body,

10:25

like giving a hug, but without my arms.

10:31

So awkward.

10:34

Wait, wait, wait. So why didn't she

10:37

use her arms? She cannot tell you

10:39

why. She does not know. I just,

10:41

I think I sort of froze. Like

10:44

I was thinking, well, he's taller than me. So

10:47

he's going to kind of, you know, envelop

10:49

me a little bit with his arms. But

10:54

he wasn't going in for the hug. He was

10:57

just

10:58

standing there. So he doesn't

11:00

give her anything. He doesn't help the situation

11:02

at all. So I'm giving

11:04

him a full body press, you

11:06

know, with the front of my body against

11:09

the front of his body

11:11

with no arms. If he moved out

11:13

of the way, she would have fallen down. Like

11:15

that.

11:17

Okay. And then

11:20

I kind of stepped back and

11:22

I realized what just happened. And he looked so

11:24

confused.

11:25

So eventually she's like, oh God,

11:28

what have I done? And decides to just

11:31

leave and not like say goodbye

11:34

to anybody. She just runs

11:36

out of the restaurants. Wow.

11:39

She doesn't say goodbye to her friend, Michael. They

11:41

don't even talk

11:43

about it the rest of his trip there. And

11:46

she contingent her friendship, you know, they're still

11:48

in contact. They've never

11:50

talked about this happening.

11:51

They've never talked about it happening. She

11:54

has never talked about it. Looks like you're going to send him

11:56

the story. She's like, yeah, I think so. Like

11:59

that's.

11:59

to be her way of talking about it.

12:01

So awkward. It would be so much

12:04

less awkward if Meghan had

12:06

just talked to him about it years

12:08

ago. Oh

12:09

yeah, for sure. I mean like that's

12:11

the beauty of awkwardness is that it

12:14

becomes more awkward because you don't talk about it.

12:16

Uh-huh. Like it's just a gift and you need to just

12:18

take it and embrace it and hold it tight.

12:21

Well I feel for

12:23

Meghan and all of these listeners

12:25

because I am also awkward at goodbyes.

12:28

You know like there's always a moment where

12:31

somebody

12:32

has to initiate the goodbye. Like

12:34

this is over now and we are

12:37

moving on with our lives and

12:39

I just don't like being

12:41

that person and so there's

12:43

like that awkward dance of like who's

12:46

gonna do the goodbye, who's gonna initiate,

12:48

you know what I mean? You don't

12:49

want to take responsibility for being

12:51

the one to start the goodbye? Absolutely

12:53

not. I

12:54

just let the other person carry that burden.

12:56

Hmm. Uh,

13:00

well. Okay, well. Is that,

13:03

it feels like, is

13:06

that happening now? Like don't you feel

13:08

it? Someone needs to initiate

13:10

the goodbye? You have to do it. Um,

13:18

okay. Goodbye. Okay.

13:21

Bye, your way. Bye. Bye.

13:29

After the break, the dead grandma club.

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15:00

Waziah Nicole features

15:03

firsthand stories of individuals who

15:05

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and escaped to tell their story. Listen

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15:13

Hi Ariana. Hi, Yoe.

15:15

This is the first time that we

15:18

have tracked together. It is.

15:21

And I wish it were under better circumstances.

15:24

Me too. Me too. Yes,

15:26

Ariana Garably. You are a producer

15:29

of Invisibilia. What do you

15:31

got today?

15:32

So for me, the scary part

15:34

about saying goodbye is not actually

15:37

saying goodbye. It's the

15:39

part that comes after.

15:41

Like am I going to remember what I'm

15:43

supposed to about this experience

15:46

or this relationship? Which

15:48

is why I've always been the type of person to

15:50

hold on to stuff.

15:53

For example, a few years ago

15:56

my grandma's passed away and I'm obsessed

15:58

with this amazing stuff that's going on.

15:59

they left me, like a rug

16:02

from Iran that's in my living room, a

16:04

portrait of my Chinese grandma that's

16:07

on my wall.

16:08

Maybe you've noticed this huge ring

16:11

that I wear on my finger, which

16:13

I always wear, even though it gets in the way of cooking.

16:16

I have noticed.

16:17

But in this call-out, we got a

16:20

story from a listener that actually made me

16:22

question myself. Okay. The

16:25

listener, her name is Molly Divnani,

16:27

and last year she lost her grandma,

16:30

who she adored.

16:32

I have this memory of her throwing

16:34

her walker forward and then

16:36

walking to catch up with it, just a

16:39

busy, busy person. Oh

16:42

my God, how does that even work? That's

16:44

like from a Pixar movie. It's like, do you need

16:46

the walker? I feel like you don't need the walker.

16:51

So after she passed, Molly

16:54

went to India, where her grandma had lived.

16:57

And while she was there, one of the things that was happening

16:59

was that her family was cleaning up her grandma's

17:01

house, deciding what to throw

17:04

out, what to keep.

17:05

And that's when they all came

17:08

across a bag of nightgowns.

17:10

They feel pressed and a little

17:12

humid maybe. And

17:15

they're kind of stuck in their folded positions.

17:19

One of them is yellow and

17:21

has pink flowers on

17:23

it. Another

17:25

one is green, like a bright fluorescent

17:29

type of green, just her swag.

17:33

So Molly is absolutely entranced with

17:35

these nightgowns while her

17:38

aunt and cousin are also standing there and

17:40

just way less impressed.

17:42

And they were sort of joking around, smelling

17:45

it, how it smells like coconut oil. They couldn't

17:47

stand that she always had coconut oil smell

17:49

on her. But I could kind of put together, oh

17:52

my gosh, they're going to get rid of these. And

17:54

I just had this sinking feeling

17:57

of absolutely not.

17:59

I'm keeping these, these are mine. In

18:05

the moment, they were like, okay Molly,

18:07

you don't know what's going on, but

18:09

just take them. So, she

18:12

backs a bag full to the brim with the nightgowns.

18:15

Did you have to pay for an extra bag? Um,

18:19

I did, yeah. I sure

18:21

did. She takes the long flight

18:24

home, literally going

18:26

back to America with your familial

18:28

baggage. Yeah,

18:32

quite literally, yes.

18:34

She

18:36

gets back to the U.S. and she has this

18:38

plan. She wants to turn the nightgowns

18:41

into a quilt.

18:43

So, she pops the nightgowns in the trunk of her car.

18:45

She's going to take them to her mom's

18:47

house for help sewing. But

18:49

before she can get that far... I off

18:52

the cuff just mentioned this to my cousin, and

18:54

she's like, well you know, you know

18:56

you actually are supposed to like,

18:58

burn them, or what we do is just

19:00

give them away. So, Molly's

19:03

Hindu and her family does this thing where

19:05

they get rid of stuff after someone passes

19:07

away, because they want

19:09

the person's soul to be able to leave their

19:11

body and move on, which they can't

19:14

do if you have all their stuff around. Um,

19:16

and I was kind of like, oh shoot, you

19:18

know, I'm, I'm sorry I didn't

19:21

know that.

19:22

Why didn't you tell me before I packed the

19:24

bag of nighties, you know, home

19:27

with me? But you know, considering the

19:29

stakes, Molly's cousin is pretty chill

19:31

about it.

19:32

She's like, but it's okay, it's, I mean

19:34

it's, it's whatever you want, so... It's

19:37

more about what you believe in. Somehow,

19:40

it's kind of like, what do I believe

19:42

in? Oof! That

19:45

is, it would almost be easier

19:47

if the cousin was just like, you

19:49

need to burn them, or it's totally fine.

19:52

I know, and that's why

19:54

for weeks Molly is like, what

19:56

do I do? Do

19:58

I make the quilt? Oh, no. Oh my gosh,

20:00

it would be beautiful. It

20:03

would look so good on my couch. Or

20:06

do I take the Niteys out of my car and

20:08

donate them? Like what if her soul

20:11

is still in there? What if what they said is true?

20:13

And like she's just in the trunk? Like should I move

20:15

her up to the passenger seat or?

20:18

So what did Molly do?

20:21

Well, when I called Molly, she still

20:23

hadn't decided and we talked about

20:25

it a lot.

20:27

And eventually she said this thing

20:29

about keeping the Niteys that I just

20:31

couldn't get out of my head.

20:33

I can keep her handwritten

20:36

notes around. I can keep her nightgowns

20:39

around. But that's ultimately to try

20:41

to sort of stage the scene as though

20:43

she's here, right?

20:45

Yeah. I

20:48

think we've arrived at our answer. What's

20:51

the answer? I

20:53

mean, hearing myself talk about those two paths,

20:55

I

20:57

think it makes sense to, to

21:04

let the Niteys soar onto

21:06

their next home, you know? Because

21:12

I guess ultimately it's

21:14

letting go, but it's also reality.

21:18

And the reality is that she doesn't

21:20

need the things. The love

21:22

stays, you know? If I

21:25

want to remember her, that's

21:27

within myself. And I don't really

21:29

need a physical crutch

21:31

for that.

21:38

I think that's beautiful. Like

21:41

you're not going to use a crutch to

21:44

remember. You're just going

21:46

to trust that you will.

21:48

Yeah. So,

21:51

Aiyana. Yes.

21:54

Does that mean that you will

21:57

take off the huge ring? that

22:00

you wear all the time even though it gets in the way?

22:03

No, you can't make me. I

22:08

just see. So you have not absorbed the

22:10

lesson of your own story that

22:12

you reported. Okay, well,

22:15

I will share one thing, which is that

22:17

a few years ago I was

22:20

making, of all things,

22:22

a pinata for my friend's birthday.

22:26

And yeah, I like took the ring off to

22:28

do it.

22:29

I put it on the ground and I stepped

22:32

on it and

22:34

it like mushed down

22:37

into this like unwearable shape. No.

22:40

And I like picked it up and I was horrified.

22:42

And my friend generously

22:45

like went to work on it and she

22:47

made it wearable again and I was super,

22:50

super grateful. But I

22:52

guess like after like talking

22:54

to Molly, the

22:56

thing I realized was that I think

22:59

if that happens again, I'd be

23:02

a little less freaked out. Thanks

23:08

Ariana. Of course. Talk

23:11

to you soon.

23:12

Bye. Goodbye.

23:24

All right. Our next story is about a kind of goodbye.

23:26

We got a lot of messages about the

23:28

goodbye you regret. And

23:30

it comes from a listener who actually

23:33

hasn't listened to that many episodes. It's

23:35

about three to

23:38

four. Sorry. Because

23:40

I find that it's really involved.

23:44

You cannot do things with the background.

23:46

You can't listen to invisibility.

23:50

You have to really concentrate.

23:53

This is my mom, the queen who kills

23:55

with candor. She's also a hot

23:57

girl who always has the latest unwritten.

23:59

What's new in skincare? Wow, you look so

24:02

moisturized. Nailed

24:04

that. Or is that sweat? No, no,

24:06

no, no. Oh, this is my leg up. It's the sunscreen.

24:09

I love it.

24:10

I wanted to talk to my mom because she's

24:12

had a lot of practice saying goodbye, specifically

24:15

to her mom,

24:17

my grandma, Waipua.

24:19

My mom grew up an only child in Taiwan and

24:22

my grandpa died early on. So

24:24

from a young age, it was just her

24:26

and Waipua, the two of them,

24:28

which they took advantage of with their own

24:31

special rituals. Like

24:33

when my mom was a kid, Waipua liked to dress

24:35

her up like a doll, buy fabric

24:38

in the morning, and sit at the

24:40

sewing machine for hours to make my mom

24:42

a dress by the afternoon.

24:43

We don't really have a routine, you know, like,

24:46

oh, Daddy's coming home, so we need to make

24:48

dinner for everyone. So

24:50

she was just concentrate on making it

24:53

to finish it from start to finish. Well,

24:57

her routine would be you.

24:59

Yeah, that's dry. But

25:02

then when my mom was 22, she

25:04

broke up this duo. She flew

25:06

to the US to go to grad school and

25:08

live with my dad, who she'd been doing long

25:11

distance with. My mom says

25:13

back then, if you were lucky enough to skip town

25:15

for the US, leaving wasn't a question

25:17

mark. Everyone was on board at

25:20

the time. But still, I'd

25:22

always wondered what had gone down in that

25:25

goodbye. We never talked

25:27

about the actual moment of it. That

25:32

for me is really, really,

25:35

really scary. A

25:38

scary thought. In

25:42

the weeks leading up to the flight, my mom says

25:44

everything was a scramble.

25:46

Waipua was in Supreme Waipua mode,

25:49

taking my mom to get her hair curled, to look

25:51

like a movie star, going to acupuncture,

25:54

to jab needles in my mom's face for a sinus

25:56

problem.

25:58

There was no time to talk or think. much about

26:00

the separation, how she'd be leaving

26:02

Waipua to live all by herself,

26:05

not even the day of the flight. Yeah, then

26:07

we were in the taxi

26:10

and kind of tense moment

26:13

because we were both silent.

26:16

A lot of things are going through our

26:18

minds. Were you thinking

26:21

about Waipua at all?

26:25

Because the young people at that time,

26:27

I'm not as thoughtful

26:29

as I would now. So

26:32

I was more thinking of my own problem.

26:35

But of course, thinking, oh, she's

26:37

living by herself.

26:42

When they got to the airport, my mom was hoping

26:44

for another shot at goodbye.

26:47

But other family had now arrived.

26:49

My mom felt like she had to make small talk. And

26:51

before she realized, it was time to line up

26:53

at the gate. How did you actually end

26:56

up literally saying goodbye? Oh,

26:59

definitely hug and shed some

27:01

tears, of course. Cannot

27:04

really go deeper.

27:06

In other words, she felt like she

27:08

blew it.

27:17

Over the next four decades, my mom had

27:19

to leave and say goodbye to Waipua probably 25

27:23

times on visits back to Taiwan

27:26

or when Waipua visited us in Houston.

27:29

Growing up, I'm sure I witnessed many

27:31

of these goodbyes,

27:33

but they don't stick out in my mind.

27:35

Now as an adult, I feel for

27:37

her having to do this really

27:39

hard thing over and over again.

27:43

She's stuck in some kind of goodbye groundhog

27:45

day.

27:47

Did

27:47

you ever figure out a way to

27:50

make it less painful? I

27:54

was just basically using

27:57

avoidance strategies.

27:59

Not to think about it. Not to think about

28:02

it. The more you dwell

28:04

on it, the more you become more

28:06

depressed.

28:10

Good old fashioned avoidance. Right.

28:13

Good old fashioned.

28:20

Then the final goodbye, the big one.

28:24

In 2020, Waipou lost her appetite

28:26

and her blood pressure was off. Her

28:29

nurse at the nursing home took her to the hospital. What

28:32

was supposed to be a day of observation turned

28:34

into days, then a week, then

28:37

an oxygen tank.

28:39

My mom got on the first flight she could, but

28:41

she had to quarantine for two weeks when she landed.

28:44

She was just a few days from making it to

28:47

the hospital when the time came. So

28:49

they did a video call. When she

28:51

was in her oxygen tank,

28:54

she was looking at me so I could

28:57

have an eye contact with her. Hmm.

29:01

Of course, the only thing I think

29:03

is just, she must feel lonely.

29:07

If I'm there, you know, definitely will help her.

29:14

My mom had so much practice with goodbyes. I

29:16

thought she'd have something to tell me about how to

29:18

do them well. Some useful advice.

29:22

But

29:22

she didn't really have any. She

29:25

told me that saying goodbye always hurt.

29:27

And she never learned how to do it right with white paw.

29:30

Not during those 45 years, and

29:33

not that last time either.

29:36

If you could do it over and you could

29:38

have made it by her side, what

29:40

would you have said to her? We're done.

29:43

I will kiss her, of course. Pat

29:48

her or her head like

29:51

a baby, yeah. Hmm.

29:57

Hmm. But

30:02

then I had this memory with Waipua that

30:06

I thought might help my mom feel better about these

30:08

botched goodbyes.

30:10

So mom, there's this moment I

30:13

witnessed a while ago that

30:15

I never talked to you about. Decades

30:19

ago, when my mom and dad were long distance, my

30:21

mom made a cassette tape of herself singing for

30:24

my dad, and she made an extra copy

30:26

for Waipua. And a few years

30:28

ago, when our family was in Taipei

30:30

visiting, my grandma got out the tape

30:32

and played it for me. Backhand,

30:33

backhand, backhand. Oh yeah. Thank

30:36

you. Ta-da. My

30:38

mom is singing

30:45

You and Me, a

30:48

song originally composed

30:51

around the 13th century

30:54

in China

31:01

and

31:09

as we were sitting there listening to this tape,

31:11

I noticed Waipua's lips were moving to all

31:14

the words. She'd

31:16

listened to this song over and over

31:18

again and memorized every lyric.

31:47

When I told my mom about this moment,

31:49

it was like she'd been flattened by an emotional

31:51

dump truck. Wow.

31:55

So she must be listening a

31:58

lot. Wow.

32:01

Did you know that she listened to those songs? I

32:03

didn't know. I

32:05

didn't know. How does that

32:08

make you feel? Well,

32:12

yeah, I mean, of course.

32:17

By listening to my voice, my

32:19

singing, she must feel closer

32:21

to me.

32:22

Aww. You

32:29

know, when we talk about goodbyes,

32:32

I feel like people tend to focus

32:34

on what happens during the

32:36

literal parting of ways. You

32:39

know, like that airport scene. Right. The

32:42

hug, the kiss, the wave. But

32:44

this moment with Waipua, it

32:48

made me realize that that's just one

32:51

goodbye point in

32:54

the long arc of goodbyes. Right.

32:58

And that there are all these other goodbyes that

33:00

are largely invisible to the other person.

33:03

Mm-hmm. Like this goodbye

33:05

that Waipua was doing with

33:07

you. Right. By listening to your

33:10

songs and holding you close all

33:12

these years. Right.

33:16

I think that also counts.

33:31

There's one other thing my mom would have done

33:34

if she got into say goodbye in person. She

33:37

said she'd play YouTube.

33:39

YouTube of Waipua's favorite song,

33:42

Small Town Story by this famous Taiwanese

33:44

singer, Teresa Tang. But

33:47

surely my mom, who my

33:49

dad calls Shao Niao, little bird,

33:52

can do better than YouTube.

33:54

So I asked her to do her own invisible,

33:56

unofficial goodbye. Sing

33:58

another song for Waipua. Thank

34:01

you for dressing up for the occasion.

34:03

So beautiful. Ah,

34:05

you're always too nice.

34:07

Okay. Okay.

34:32

That's it. After

34:41

the break, lead reporter and

34:43

producer Abby Wendell

34:45

bring some Tupperware to the goodbye

34:55

party.

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36:18

Hey everyone, I'm Ramtin Adabluhi.

36:20

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36:22

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36:25

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Listen to the Through Line podcast

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36:40

All right, we have reached

36:43

our final goodbye of the episode. Oh my God,

36:45

you sound like we're at our own funeral.

36:49

It kind of is a funeral

36:52

for our show. Yeah,

36:56

hello, Abby Wendell. Hello, Yoisha.

37:00

So like, as you know, I'm from

37:02

the Midwest. And

37:04

we have a bit of a reputation about

37:08

our goodbyes. Are

37:10

you familiar? Okay, I'm not actually

37:13

familiar. I did see an email from

37:15

a listener who said something about Midwestern

37:17

goodbyes being famous for being really long

37:20

and drawn out, and like you can't really

37:23

get out of them. Yes. Is that right?

37:25

That is absolutely correct. It is

37:28

prolonged. It

37:30

likes to linger. It's

37:32

broken down into steps sometimes.

37:36

There's a sort of like whelp and a knee

37:38

slap and kind of like maybe a stretch

37:41

to indicate that you might be getting up off the

37:43

couch. Oh, that's the signal to initiate.

37:46

Yeah. Okay. But

37:47

then like the goodbye can last

37:50

anywhere from 30 minutes

37:52

to... 30 minutes.

37:56

Like hours. No. There's

37:58

going to be some sort of...

37:59

of obligatory taking

38:02

of leftovers. I saw one person

38:04

call this ensnarement cake, which

38:06

I thought was hilarious. — Insnarement

38:10

cake. — Yeah. — I love that. — Also,

38:12

there's like a stage where you're at the

38:15

foyer making plans for

38:17

the future.

38:19

The internet, not surprisingly, is filled with

38:21

scorn for the Midwestern goodbye. I've

38:24

seen jokes about, like, if you go to

38:26

dinner together, you can expect

38:28

for the goodbyes that take place in the parking

38:31

lot to last as long, if

38:34

not longer, than the actual dinner.

38:36

— Oh my god. That sounds like torture

38:39

to me. And also, I don't

38:41

know if you're aware of this, Abby Wendell, but there's

38:44

a joke about you on our team. — Oh

38:47

no. — I'm just about how it

38:49

is impossible to get out of meetings

38:51

with you. — Oh

38:55

god.

38:55

So, as a Midwesterner,

38:58

I've engaged with this goodbye, obviously.

39:00

You've been victim to

39:02

it, apparently. — Yeah. — You know, kind of

39:04

by default. Until this moment,

39:07

right? Like, this moment made me question it.

39:10

Like, does it actually have a value? Is

39:12

there anything redeeming about

39:15

it? And is it

39:17

the right kind of goodbye for

39:19

this particular moment? — Hmm.

39:22

So, I called up the guy that I

39:24

like to think about these kinds of questions with.

39:27

David, of course. — I'm

39:30

kind of like a story

39:32

psychotherapist, which feels

39:34

more like what I feel like I do, because I'm

39:36

not doing therapy for people,

39:39

right? It's, like, much more about, like, somebody needs

39:41

to put their story on the couch, and we, like, listen.

39:44

— Typically not. But yeah. — It's

39:47

not that it's never happened. — Uh-huh.

39:50

— I feel like that's a great descriptor, like a story

39:52

psychotherapist, with, like, a splash

39:55

of rabbi?

39:56

— Yes. Yes. There's definitely a certain

39:58

amount of... rabbinic knowledge

40:00

that's required for this job. So

40:03

for our listeners, this is David Goodhurtz.

40:06

He helps us do intellectual reporting and

40:08

research for our stories. He does so

40:11

much. Yeah, and he felt doubly qualified

40:14

to talk about this particular question

40:17

because he recently moved to

40:20

the Midwest, Ohio, actually. He's

40:23

like an hour and a half north of me. And

40:27

he reports already experiencing

40:30

some Midwestern goodbye

40:32

energy. I found a lime in my

40:34

car today. That was

40:37

not one that I bought. That was

40:39

like, someone was like, I had mentioned

40:41

something that someone was like, oh, you'll

40:43

need limes for that, you know? And then

40:46

it just sits in my car for the next month.

40:47

It's an ensnarement lime. Yeah. So

40:50

I asked David to do a little bit of research

40:52

and thinking about the Midwestern goodbye,

40:55

and like mulling it over. And

40:58

here's what he had to say.

40:59

I think people who come from the outside and look at it,

41:01

I think one of the reasons people hate it is because it looks so

41:03

denialist. Denialist. You know, it's just

41:05

like, just say goodbye and be done with it, you

41:08

know? But I think that it's

41:11

a very particular way.

41:13

It's all about leftovers. It really is all

41:15

about leftovers. It's you're gathering up

41:17

the leftovers of the night from

41:19

each conversation, from each person, something

41:22

you haven't yet

41:23

eaten, you know, from each person

41:25

there in order to say like,

41:28

well, but I'm still carrying these leftovers home

41:30

with me. So I haven't fully disappeared.

41:33

Some bit of this is still with me.

41:36

I'm thinking about my mom

41:38

and all the people out there

41:41

who have these goodbyes

41:43

in their life that they regret not doing,

41:45

you know, things they wish they

41:47

had done or said in a

41:49

goodbye.

41:50

And it feels like

41:53

the Midwestern goodbye. This

41:56

kind of like extra space and

41:58

room built in.

41:59

to apparently every farewell. I

42:02

mean, it's just like a catch-all

42:04

to prevent against that

42:06

feeling. So

42:09

I talked with one listener and she said

42:11

that the Midwestern goodbye is a goodbye that's

42:13

open to opportunity.

42:15

I think that that is

42:17

the value of the Midwestern goodbye. It's

42:20

not maybe the only goodbye that you should have in your arsenal,

42:24

but like it is a goodbye that has

42:26

a time and a place

42:29

for moments where there's a lot of

42:31

uncertainty where maybe like

42:33

you don't want to go and

42:35

maybe you don't actually have

42:37

to go. Like anything

42:40

could happen in that lingering. Are

42:43

you suggesting that we camp

42:46

out at NPR headquarters and

42:49

just get a bunch of Tupperware?

42:52

We need to start baking casseroles now. Okay,

42:55

that's the plan. Okay, got it.

42:57

But as you

43:00

know, that's actually not

43:02

the situation we're in. Yeah. And

43:05

at some point while I was talking with David,

43:08

he told me about this like very

43:11

different kind of goodbye that

43:13

might be more fitting. Just to get into my

43:15

rabbi mode for a second. This is

43:17

like so Jewish.

43:20

I like can't even believe that this exists actually, but

43:22

there's like a way to say goodbye to

43:25

a book that you really love reading. That

43:28

is like that you've

43:30

gotten a lot of lessons from. So like a track

43:32

date of the Talmud. It's called

43:34

the Hadran, which

43:37

means the we will return,

43:40

which is a prayer that you say. You

43:42

know, the thought here is you're reading a

43:44

book is always a way of engaging

43:47

with the community in this tradition

43:49

that the senses community is built

43:51

out of that shared argumentation

43:55

around a set of ideas and

43:59

visions. that really matter to

44:02

you or to the other people who would come with

44:04

you to read this tractate. And

44:07

I mean, and that was like one of the things that when I got to

44:09

invisibility, it was one of the first things that I was like, oh,

44:11

that's what's happening here. We're like putting

44:13

a tractate on the table and we're all Talmudic

44:15

dissecting it until there's nothing left

44:18

to say about it. And then we're gonna come back and do it tomorrow.

44:23

And so there's this prayer

44:25

that

44:26

you say,

44:28

we will return to you and

44:30

you will return to us. Our

44:33

mind is on you and your mind

44:35

is on us. We will not

44:37

forget you and you will not forget

44:39

us, not in this world

44:42

and not in the world to come.

44:45

And the idea is you're supposed to say

44:47

it allowed, at

44:51

the end of a

44:53

study session, and you're

44:56

also supposed to leave a little bit unread

45:00

so that you can come

45:02

back to it and it can come back to you.

45:05

But to me, there's something about that formula

45:08

that it's saying like, I won't forget you, right?

45:11

I'm gonna come back to you and

45:13

you won't forget me, but also

45:16

like I'm really leaving.

45:19

So when Davida and I began thinking

45:23

together about Talmudic

45:25

dissecting this goodbye,

45:29

which I've been calling the Talmudic

45:31

goodbye,

45:33

it really helped me realize that

45:37

it has something that the Midwestern

45:39

goodbye for all its

45:42

beautiful virtues just

45:44

doesn't actually have. There

45:47

isn't a moment where you really say,

45:49

you know what? Like, we gotta

45:51

let it burn. And

45:54

we really have to not end the denial necessarily,

45:59

but like. take a moment to mark

46:01

something that

46:03

is this burning, that

46:06

is this kind of like cleansing. That

46:08

to me is something that feels, it's missing

46:11

something of that element. Yeah. Like

46:13

to me, I can only experience the finality as

46:15

like a who knows. Right, right. But

46:18

not as a shared finality.

46:19

A who knows is a denial

46:22

of, no, we know. Yeah, yeah.

46:26

Things are ending and we're saying goodbye

46:28

now. Oh, when you said that suddenly

46:30

I just felt very, very sad. Yeah. Oh,

46:35

you're gonna make me cry.

46:38

I know, yeah, it's really sad. It's really

46:40

sad, yeah. I

46:44

mean, there

46:47

is something kind of like, there's

46:53

like a clinger on energy to the

46:55

Midwestern goodbye that

46:58

I find very sweet. Yeah. And

47:01

like not pathetic, but

47:03

like has shades of in

47:05

denial. Yeah. I'm

47:07

not letting you go. Right.

47:10

We'll meet again. Yeah.

47:11

And sometimes

47:14

what you need for a goodbye

47:16

is just, you

47:18

know, a dramatic ritual

47:21

of just sort of like ripping the bit, like

47:24

something cathartic rather

47:26

than the don't go, don't go, which

47:30

if you'll recall, invisibilia

47:33

used to do. I knew you were gonna go here. Yeah.

47:36

That is true. How could I forget?

47:39

Well, how could I not go here? So

47:43

yeah, at the end of every season, we would gather

47:45

together and have what we called a

47:49

coven party. Yeah,

47:51

cause we like would always burn something.

47:55

Sticky notes of to do lists,

47:57

interview transcripts. There was

47:59

a.

47:59

a certain amount of debauchery. Oh,

48:02

yeah. All of us like,

48:05

lounge in our chairs, cigarettes out,

48:08

drinks, double fisting. Remember

48:10

when we had a competition, the drinks of many colors?

48:13

Yes, we had a... Ha ha ha

48:15

ha ha ha.

48:19

What

48:22

do

48:22

you think? Should we plan a coven

48:24

party? Absolutely. Where

48:27

should it be? I feel like I'm in the middle.

48:30

And I have a solo stove. Like Thai

48:32

food, menu? Yeah,

48:34

Thai food. There's a good Thai place around us.

48:37

We need to decide on what the ritual of

48:40

what we're burning. I think something

48:42

Zoom related

48:43

would be fun. Yo, wait. You'll

48:46

notice I've now engaged us in a

48:48

proper Midwestern goodbye because

48:51

we are making plans for the future. Ha

48:53

ha ha ha ha ha. Oh,

48:56

I've been ensnared. I'm

48:59

a sitting duck for the Midwestern. I

49:02

mean, listen, you've been ensnaring

49:04

me this... Seven years. With

49:06

all the Midwestern goodbyes during meeting. So of course

49:09

I would be

49:09

ensnared once again. Seven year-long.

49:27

That's it for the goodbye show. Thank

49:30

you to everyone who wrote in with your goodbye stories

49:33

and messages of support, including

49:35

Natasha Allen, Ryan Kalon, Lala

49:37

Drona, Jessica Van Dyne, Marina

49:40

Fu, Claire Jones, Alison Laughlin,

49:42

Marissa Mann, Eric Ong,

49:44

Elisa Cole-Sikhar, Lauren Torres,

49:47

Jeffrey Meyer, Isaiah Prasad, Christian

49:50

Cobian and Kelsey Simkins. Loved

49:53

getting to go through all your emails and

49:55

they helped us in this moment.

49:57

A tear or two might have been short. Special

50:01

thanks to Alexandra Dixon, to Wyndham

50:03

Junot for reflecting on the Midwestern goodbye

50:06

with Abby, and to Daisy Wu

50:08

for helping ID a song from my mom's

50:10

cassette tape. This episode was produced

50:12

by the three A's, Abby Wendell, Andrew

50:15

Mambo, Ariana Garably, and me,

50:17

Yo-Weh Shaw. It was edited by Liza

50:19

Yeager. Invisibilia is also

50:22

produced by supervising editor Nina

50:24

Pautuk, supervising producer Liana

50:26

Simstrom,

50:26

executive producer Irene Noguchi, and

50:28

my co-host Kia Miyake-Netis. This

50:31

episode was mastered by Josh Newell. Our

50:33

technical director is Andy Huther. Legal

50:35

and standard support from Micah Ratner and

50:37

Tony Kavan. And our senior vice president

50:40

of programming is Anya Gruntman. Theme

50:42

music by Infinity Knives. Additional

50:44

music in this episode provided by Elizabeth

50:47

Delise, Connor Lafitte, and Running Dog

50:49

music. All

50:51

right. We have come to the

50:53

moment to actually say goodbye and

50:56

not just keep running down the driveway waving at

50:58

you. Goodbye. And

51:00

thank you to everyone across NPR

51:02

who helped us make Invisibilia and

51:05

share it with the world. Visuals,

51:07

marketing, RAD, engineering, IT,

51:09

social, audience engagement, legal, and

51:12

so many more teams. And

51:14

of course, thank you and all

51:16

the flowers to Elise Spiegel,

51:19

Lulu Miller, and Ann Gudenkopf

51:21

for

51:21

creating this weird, beautiful show.

51:24

And to former host, Hannah Rosen, and

51:26

to all the Invisibilians past

51:28

and present who made it go with

51:31

all your contributions.

51:34

Be

51:45

a Parker. Barry Hardiman.

51:47

Brendan Baker. Brent Pachman. Kara

51:49

Tallow. Carolyn McCusker. Chris

51:51

Benderev. Claire Marie Schneider. David Goodhurtz.

51:54

Deborah George. Eric Newson. Hannah

51:56

Rosen. Irene Noguchi. James Kim. Jeff

52:00

Rogers. Joe Nixon. Julie

52:03

Carley. Justine Yan. Karen

52:05

Duffin. Kat Chow. Kia Miaka-Nates.

52:08

Jake Arlo. Lauren Beard.

52:10

Lee Hale. Lena Sons-Kerry.

52:12

Liana Simstrom. Liza Yeager. Lulu

52:15

Miller. Luis Reyes.

52:18

Matt Martinez. Maria Paz-Boutiérrez.

52:21

Mark Bennett. Megan Kane. Nikaela

52:23

Rodriguez. Micah Ratner. Maki

52:25

Kapper. Neil Caruth. Nina Potak.

52:27

Nicole Beams-Jabour. Nick M.

52:30

Nevis. Oliver Wang. Lour Wozwoz.

52:32

Pablo Arroyes. Deséméxico. Te

52:35

amo invicibilia. Phoebe Wang.

52:37

Pranav Baskar. Rachel Carbonara. Rebecca

52:40

Ramirez. Reina Cohen. Sarah

52:42

Long. Shirley Henry.

52:43

Taylor Haney. C.O. Greenley. Travis

52:46

Larchuk. And me, Yoay Shah.

52:50

And last, but certainly not least, thank

52:52

you to every single one of you for listening

52:54

over the years, contributing your stories,

52:57

questions, corrections, and ideas, for

52:59

badgering your friends and family to listen to our episodes,

53:02

for just hanging with us. If

53:05

you wanna keep hanging, you can always revisit

53:07

the archive on NPR's website and wherever

53:09

you get your podcasts. We're

53:11

not sure what happens next for this feed, but

53:14

you should stay subscribed for now. Who

53:16

knows, maybe magic will strike. And

53:19

some of our team is staying on at

53:21

NPR to keep telling beautiful audio stories

53:24

and we'll share them with you. As

53:26

for me, I just started a newsletter and

53:28

you can find me on Twitter, Instagram,

53:31

all the things. Just search Yoay

53:34

Shah, you will find me. We

53:36

will put everybody's info on our website so

53:39

you can follow us to see what we make next.

53:42

Okay, we are actually at the end

53:44

now. See you soon, somewhere

53:47

out there. Support

53:49

for this podcast and the following message come

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54:07

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