0:00

Hi, this is Sarah. If you like

0:02

this episode of Let's Talk About Sects, you

0:04

can listen to my audiobook, Do As I Say,

0:06

How Cults Control, Why

0:08

We Join Them, and What They Teach Us About Bullying,

0:11

Abuse, and Coercion. The audiobook

0:13

will be available on Audible, Apple Books,

0:16

Google, and Kobo from the 28th of June.

0:18

A link is in the show notes.

0:21

Carol Murchison spent many years in corporate

0:23

law and previously worked as a partner

0:26

in the Philadelphia office of Morgan, Lewis,

0:28

and Bockius, and as director of Morgan

0:30

Lewis Resources.

0:32

She has conducted dozens of workplace investigations

0:35

and taught investigative techniques to human resource

0:37

professionals at many Fortune 50 companies.

0:40

Since that time, she told me she's failed at

0:42

retirement on numerous occasions.

0:45

She has since joined McAllister Olivarius,

0:48

where she heads up a practice covering sexual misconduct

0:50

in religious, faith-based, and spiritual communities.

0:54

As an investigator, she has worked to uncover

0:56

sexual misconduct within the Shambhala

0:58

International Lineage of Buddhism, the

1:00

Sivananda Yoga Vedanta Centers, and

1:03

is currently assisting other spiritual communities

1:06

in bringing allegations of sexual misconduct

1:08

to light.

1:56

Welcome to Let's Talk About Sex, a

1:59

podcast about cults. around the world. I'm

2:01

your host, Sarah Steele. Before

2:03

we start a content warning, this episode

2:05

deals with trauma, sexual abuse and rape.

2:08

Please use your discretion as to whether this will be suitable

2:10

for you and those around you who may be listening

2:13

to.

2:14

Later on in her career, Carol Murchison

2:17

was asked to take her corporate background and

2:19

use it to conduct training for leaders of various

2:21

Buddhist communities. The response

2:23

she received, I'm told, was one of open hostility.

2:26

Certain religious leaders were not interested

2:28

in understanding how large corporations

2:31

worked to ensure their staff were safe and

2:33

what they could learn from them.

2:35

This led Carol to the realization that corporate

2:38

America, a segment of society not

2:40

known for its high moral and ethical standards,

2:42

was doing far better than religious America

2:45

when it came to stamping out abuse.

2:47

Since that time, Carol has worked with survivors

2:50

of abuse and misconduct across a number of

2:52

global spiritual and religious movements

2:55

and has extensive experience as both a litigator

2:57

and an investigator.

2:59

I was so interested to speak with Carol

3:01

about the approaches she's taken with some of these

3:03

organizations from a legal perspective, and

3:06

I'm sure you'll be just as keen to hear what she

3:08

had to share with me.

3:10

Carol Murchison, thank you so much for speaking

3:12

with me today. First up, can you

3:14

tell me a bit about your background and work history

3:17

and what took you from there to suing

3:19

cults? Well,

3:22

not a very straight path. In fact,

3:25

I am a lawyer and I was

3:27

an employment lawyer in the United States.

3:30

And so it meant for me

3:32

that what I did was, particularly

3:35

in the late 90s and early 2000s,

3:38

I began to help companies and corporations

3:40

deal with issues of

3:42

sexual harassment and sexual misconduct

3:45

in the workplace because that was becoming

3:47

very much the new thing

3:50

in employment law. And I did

3:52

that for a number of years. And

3:54

then after some time, I

3:57

began doing mostly investigations.

4:00

within companies and then after

4:02

the kind of the beginning of the Me Too movement

4:05

I got a call from someone whom

4:08

I ultimately Decided

4:10

to help on a pro bono basis. I

4:12

was retired by that time and

4:15

so I helped her by doing an investigation

4:18

into sexual

4:21

misconduct in a large Buddhist

4:23

community in Canada and It

4:26

turned out that there was indeed sexual

4:28

abuse that was happening From the leader

4:31

of the group and it made it was

4:33

a lot of press It was on the front page

4:35

of the New York Times and and then

4:37

all of a sudden I had a lot of people who

4:40

were calling me and saying Would

4:42

you do the same for me because I didn't

4:45

even know that it was a thing, you know I

4:47

didn't know that that's what was

4:49

happening to me and honestly,

4:52

it wasn't until

4:54

Well, I did that for four years all

4:57

pro bono and then I found that I

4:59

couldn't

5:00

Bring any accountability

5:03

without the hammer of the law

5:05

in back of me And so I joined a law

5:07

firm in London I work remotely

5:10

but I go over there every couple of months and

5:13

we are now litigating these cases

5:15

because it's the only Way

5:18

that we have found to

5:20

bring any kind of sense of justice or

5:22

accountability to survivors And

5:24

it is only then that I began

5:26

to recognize the

5:29

cult Nature of what

5:31

was going on then I began

5:34

to see the patterns you've outlined

5:36

them in your book perfectly

5:38

I saw the patterns and I thought what

5:41

I thought were Religions

5:44

are really cults that have weaponized

5:48

the teachings of the religions Yes,

5:50

that's exactly right and and also in many cases

5:53

not religions at all You know all groups that

5:55

eventually yes to say that they're religions,

5:58

but yeah, I think

5:59

people kind of, they're worried about religious

6:02

freedom, which of course is a major concern.

6:05

But there are areas where it's really not

6:07

a question of religious freedom. To me,

6:09

this is a question of control and abuse, right?

6:12

Right. Because look, we

6:14

have in the United States, and I'm sure around

6:16

the world, seen the kinds of abuses

6:18

that have been coming out

6:20

of the Catholic Church.

6:22

Right? We don't say you have

6:24

religious freedom to abuse

6:26

people. You have freedom

6:29

up to the point where you are

6:32

violating the law.

6:34

And that's what's happening in these

6:36

cases. In my case,

6:38

it was interesting because I did this

6:41

Buddhist investigation, and then I was

6:43

asked to do a yoga investigation.

6:46

So the beginning of it for me was

6:48

all within communities,

6:51

like Buddhism, like yoga or

6:53

Hinduism, that I understood

6:56

to be the exact opposite

6:58

of what was happening in these communities. Kind

7:01

of a light bulb went off in my head that

7:04

these are just, they go

7:06

down a path and they become

7:08

cult-like. And as you said, not even necessarily

7:12

do they start out as religions. As

7:14

you point out in your book, all kinds of environmental

7:17

organizations, social justice organizations,

7:20

they run off the tracks at some point.

7:23

Yeah, that's exactly right. And you

7:26

say there's only

7:28

religious freedom up until a point of where you

7:30

break the law. But so many people I speak

7:32

to who've come out of cults, they go

7:34

down to the police station and they tell

7:37

them what's happened to them. And they're told, actually,

7:39

no law has been broken in this

7:42

case. No crime has been committed. And so,

7:44

yeah, this is the case, even if they come out with

7:46

nothing, have lost decades of their life, finances,

7:49

suffered various kinds of emotional abuse,

7:52

sometimes statute of

7:53

limitations, restrictions, when

7:55

it comes to other types of abuse as well. So where

7:57

do you think the law is falling short

7:59

when it comes to these organizations.

8:02

Yeah, and you're absolutely right, the

8:04

law is falling short. So in my

8:06

particular practice, we deal with sexual

8:09

assault and sexual abuse in spiritual

8:11

communities, and sometimes not

8:13

even spiritual communities, but those others

8:16

that we've talked about, and that

8:18

is against the law, but you're right. Where

8:21

the law falls short, and you've identified

8:23

some of them, statutes of limitations

8:25

are too short. So what we

8:27

know is that it takes

8:30

years for people to

8:32

process what happened to them. And

8:35

the statutes are too short for

8:37

that to happen, for them to be

8:39

able to kind of engage in

8:43

the legal process in any meaningful

8:45

way. I think the second big thing

8:47

is that, at least in the United

8:50

States, we do not have a recognition

8:52

of coercive control, and

8:55

what these organizations, how

8:57

they manipulate people. So therefore,

9:00

as you said, when people are manipulated,

9:03

when they are emotionally abused, when

9:06

they are engaged in, and many

9:08

of these, in my experience, are

9:10

engaged in forced labor, where

9:13

people give up their livelihoods,

9:17

and then walk away with nothing,

9:19

the law does not recognize

9:22

that. And so that's

9:24

where we need to work on the advocacy

9:27

part, at least in my view.

9:28

Yes, exactly. And even

9:30

in countries where there are laws around coercive

9:33

control, all the ones that I've looked at, they only

9:35

ever really pertain to one-on-one

9:37

intimate partner relationships. So they're still, even

9:40

though they recognize coercive control as an issue,

9:42

they're not being applied when it comes to cults. So

9:45

I think it's great that there's movement in this area,

9:47

but even in other countries,

9:48

there's still a ways to go. I think

9:51

there absolutely is a long way to go, at

9:53

least in the United States. And

9:55

yes, we see those kinds of very

9:58

few states, but a few.

9:59

that do have the coercive control

10:03

in the domestic arena, but

10:06

I have not yet seen it applied

10:08

outside of that to the kind of group

10:11

dynamics in the cult situation.

10:14

Indeed. And I guess for people who aren't

10:17

maybe particularly familiar with the way that

10:19

the legal system works, when

10:21

there's not a criminal angle, this is where you

10:23

will often step in to look at options for

10:25

civil suits. So can you kind of

10:27

explain the differences between how those

10:30

types of lawsuits operate and what

10:32

kinds of things could fall within the civil

10:34

category?

10:35

Absolutely. So the

10:37

way that I think about it is that

10:40

in the criminal justice system, the

10:43

whole point is to protect

10:45

society, right? So we

10:47

have a government, we have district

10:50

attorneys or whatever we want to call them

10:52

in different countries, but they're operating

10:55

on behalf of the state to try

10:57

to take bad people who are violating

10:59

the law kind of off of the streets. And

11:02

that's a good thing. But in the

11:04

United States, at least what we know is

11:06

that we fail miserably

11:09

when it comes

11:11

to prosecuting rape.

11:14

So we do

11:16

not see much justice

11:19

in the criminal side of the justice system for

11:22

those people who have been sexually

11:25

assaulted. It's against the law,

11:27

it's

11:27

a crime, but the obstacles

11:30

to getting to the end of

11:33

the road

11:34

are very, very great.

11:37

They are things like, you must, as you

11:39

said, you must go to the police.

11:42

Well, a lot of people don't trust

11:45

that the police will understand

11:47

the situation or will believe them. And

11:50

that is borne out in probably

11:52

way too many situations.

11:54

Then the police have to do an investigation.

11:57

Then a prosecuting attorney has

11:59

to decide. to take up the case, then

12:02

the prosecuting attorney

12:04

is not your lawyer if you

12:06

are the person who has been sexually assaulted,

12:09

for example. They are the lawyer for

12:11

the state and they do

12:13

what they feel in their judgment is best

12:15

for the state. They may do

12:17

a plea bargain, they may drop the case,

12:20

and then you have to go to a jury. You

12:23

have to go and be cross-examined by

12:25

defense lawyers, and although we've gotten

12:27

better in understanding

12:30

the dynamics of rape, we're

12:33

not all the way there yet. And

12:35

then a jury has to decide that a person

12:37

is guilty beyond a reasonable

12:40

doubt, which is a very high standard

12:43

for a crime in which there are seldom

12:46

any witnesses.

12:48

That's the criminal justice system.

12:50

On the civil side, you have your own lawyer.

12:53

We are also suing for

12:55

sexual assaults, which are torts in

12:58

some states, which are called

13:00

out as being able to be sued in

13:02

a civil court in other states. And

13:05

we represent the

13:07

person themselves. In other words, our

13:10

ethical obligation is to do what is best

13:12

for them and what they want

13:14

to do. At the end of the whole road

13:17

in the civil justice system, the burden

13:20

is more likely than not.

13:23

So you can see that it's a much lower

13:26

burden of proof that you have

13:29

to achieve. And then

13:31

no one goes to jail,

13:33

which sometimes people want.

13:36

They want the perpetrator to go

13:38

to jail. And other times people

13:41

don't. And the end result of

13:43

the civil justice system is

13:46

generally speaking money.

13:48

Although I come

13:51

across clients more

13:54

and more these days who want positive

13:56

change within the organization

13:59

and they try to negotiate.

13:59

for that. Amazing.

14:02

And so, you have a

14:05

history of investigating big corporations.

14:07

Is that more or less difficult

14:09

than investigating cults? Well, it's

14:12

less difficult. I

14:14

think it's less difficult. And for

14:17

a lot of different reasons, I think that

14:19

because corporations

14:21

have been able to invest, you

14:23

know, what

14:24

millions, if not billions of dollars

14:26

into legal advice, and they

14:29

understand what the law is. And

14:32

most big corporations

14:35

have a healthy fear,

14:39

let's say, of the law. I never want

14:41

to say that people are doing this out

14:43

of the goodness of their hearts. You know, sometimes

14:45

it is. Sometimes it's because they think

14:47

it's the best thing. But other times

14:50

it's because they know that

14:51

there is liability if you

14:53

allow these things to go on. And

14:56

so I do find that

14:58

in my prior

15:00

career in investigating a corporation,

15:02

if I went in and said to the president of a company,

15:05

this is what I have found in the investigation,

15:08

there

15:09

might be hesitation, but there would be

15:11

no question about the fact that a person

15:14

who, for example, had sexually assaulted

15:16

someone would be fired.

15:18

That was just without question.

15:20

But that's not the case in

15:23

the organizations that you and I are talking

15:25

about. No, indeed, it's not.

15:28

You've looked into a few cults now

15:30

associated with yoga centers. But

15:33

a lot of people would be surprised to

15:35

learn that there are abuses in something Western

15:37

society mostly sees as such a beneficial

15:40

practice. Yes. Is this,

15:42

you've alluded to this already, but is this a big problem

15:44

in yoga?

15:45

I wouldn't have a way of judging whether

15:48

it's a big problem. But

15:50

I do have a number of cases

15:52

that are involving sexual

15:55

assault in yoga communities.

15:58

And I don't think that it's the

15:59

practice. You know, I don't

16:02

think it's necessarily,

16:05

although there have been instances

16:08

of people who were practicing yoga

16:11

and who were

16:12

assaulted while

16:14

in the practice, while in

16:16

a room full of people. But the

16:19

cases that I see are

16:21

more that

16:23

leaders, like the leaders

16:26

of cults, are abusing

16:28

their power, they're weaponizing

16:31

teachings, and they're usually

16:33

involving people who are isolated

16:37

in ashrams. So

16:40

for example, if I were

16:42

to go on a yoga vacation,

16:45

I might go to an ashram,

16:48

and I might pay to be

16:50

there and to take yoga classes and to

16:52

have, you know,

16:53

some kind of a relaxing vacation.

16:56

And that's great. That's

16:58

probably not a problem.

17:01

But for the people who staff that,

17:04

they are unpaid,

17:06

what are called karma yogis, they

17:09

are there working

17:11

with no salary

17:13

of any kind. And they

17:16

are isolated. And we begin

17:18

to see this cross a line into

17:21

some of these indicators that

17:23

we know about cults, a

17:26

leader, a

17:27

leader who can do no wrong, teachings

17:31

who tell you that you

17:33

have to do what the leader says,

17:36

that the leader knows more about

17:38

what is better for you than you

17:40

do, that if the leader

17:43

does something to you, like for

17:45

example, rapes you, that

17:48

it is because he

17:50

and it generally is he, although

17:54

not entirely, but

17:56

the majority, that

17:58

he knows better what is is

18:00

best for you. He's working out

18:02

some kind of tension. He's working

18:04

on your karma. And these

18:07

are all things that have the

18:09

possibility of happening in

18:11

yoga communities, in Buddhist

18:14

communities, in any religious

18:16

communities, and any of those

18:18

communities that are isolated and

18:21

have a kind of, maybe

18:24

a driving purpose. I think

18:26

you see that in your

18:28

experience of interviewing people

18:30

with cults.

18:32

Yes. And so much of what you said also

18:34

made me think of a lot of the kind of self-help

18:37

groups that I've looked at as well, and

18:39

these kind of big motivational

18:41

speaking groups. And Nexium, for

18:43

instance, so much of that same dynamic

18:45

is exactly what was going on there. And

18:48

also it makes me think of the issue

18:50

with the idea of the guru,

18:52

I suppose. Absolutely. Whether

18:55

you call it a guru, whether you call

18:58

it a leader, whether you call it a swami,

19:00

no matter what you are calling

19:02

it, when you are

19:04

asked to give away

19:06

all of your power to

19:09

another person who

19:11

is telling you that they know

19:13

what is better for your life than

19:16

you do. To me, that's a red

19:18

flag. At the same time,

19:20

I recognize that

19:23

it's awfully tempting, isn't it? We

19:25

live in an awfully complicated world.

19:28

And there are many days, I think, that

19:31

any of us would think, I just wish somebody would

19:33

come in and make a few decisions

19:35

for me so that I wouldn't have

19:37

to do it because I have decision

19:39

fatigue. And I think it goes

19:42

to what we

19:45

think of people

19:47

who get caught up in these cults, which

19:50

is that they are somehow incredibly naive,

19:53

or that they are, what,

19:56

dumb, stupid? I mean, whatever

19:59

pejorative that you'd

19:59

like to say, and yet that is not

20:02

at all the case.

20:05

It is the case that any of us

20:07

in

20:07

the right circumstance at the

20:09

right moment

20:11

could be lured into one of these situations

20:14

for the best of all possible reasons,

20:16

which is that we trusted the

20:18

person who was calling out to us.

20:21

Yes, I completely agree with you. I

20:23

think that's a message that I really try and get

20:25

across so much in my podcast

20:28

and through the book. I feel like it's a real self-protection

20:31

mechanism that people have to think of

20:33

the victims of these groups as having

20:36

a particular deficit in

20:38

what caused them to become involved because

20:40

it helps you to think that it would never happen to

20:42

you. But I always say, you just didn't

20:44

come across the right group for you at the wrong

20:47

time in your life or the wrong group for you at the

20:49

wrong time in your life.

20:51

Yeah, absolutely. I can't

20:53

agree more. The reality is

20:55

that

20:56

people who trust,

20:58

they are exhibiting the

21:01

element that we need to build civilization

21:04

and society. We should

21:06

be holding people up for

21:09

trusting. And the fact that they

21:11

trusted the wrong people for

21:13

me means that the

21:15

person who betrayed that trust is

21:18

the person that we need to be going

21:20

after. Why

21:23

are we always blaming the victims?

21:26

I mean, this is something that runs... I do

21:28

not quite understand that, but it's the same

21:31

thing in a way. Why aren't we saying

21:33

the people who are

21:35

wrong here are, of course,

21:37

the people who betrayed the trust of

21:39

people who

21:41

legitimately believed in

21:43

them. They are the ones that

21:46

we need to get justice and accountability from.

21:48

Yeah, I totally agree. And you may

21:50

have read in my book that I personally,

21:53

I got

21:53

ripped off by a con artist who was

21:55

very close to me personally. And

21:57

people, they really want to offer you...

22:00

advice, which I know is coming from

22:02

such a good place because they you

22:05

know, they feel for you and they want to make sure that it doesn't

22:07

happen to you again in the future, but it actually

22:09

comes across as a judgment of

22:12

that this is something that I did wrong. Yes,

22:14

and Yeah, all I did was

22:16

trust someone who I thought that I could trust.

22:19

Yeah. Yes, exactly and you

22:21

know, I have to tell you that I read

22:24

that in your book and I had never

22:26

thought of this before but in

22:29

fact,

22:30

I did something similar

22:32

and I will bet you that this is a

22:34

situation that a lot

22:36

of people may have had which is that I

22:39

trusted a contractor who

22:41

was working in my house

22:43

and Who needed the

22:45

money upfront to

22:48

supposedly buy the materials

22:51

and the next thing I knew He

22:53

had the money and he was gone

22:57

That was a long time ago And you know, I

22:59

hadn't associated in my mind

23:02

until I read that in your book that that

23:04

is exactly the same thing and

23:07

a perfect example, I mean I Was

23:10

a lawyer I knew better,

23:13

you know, we we do we we want

23:15

to blame ourselves Why did I do

23:17

that? Why didn't I see

23:19

and maybe in the back of

23:21

my mind there was some little Thing

23:24

about should I do this but

23:26

I kind of swatted it away you

23:29

know because I was anxious to get this work

23:31

done and I trusted the person

23:33

because they had been there working

23:35

in my house and Like

23:37

you I knew them and

23:39

I trusted them. And so I think if we

23:41

can help people Think

23:45

of the things where they have trusted

23:48

other people Haven't we

23:50

all trusted other people ex-boyfriends

23:54

ex-girlfriends ex-spouses

23:58

or partners we've

23:59

trusted people and they've betrayed

24:02

our trust and it doesn't make us

24:04

naive or Inferior

24:07

or in some way deficit

24:10

and in fact trusting people is something

24:12

that usually Gets brings good

24:14

things to your life. Yes, and so

24:17

we're rewarded

24:18

by doing that And in fact now

24:20

have I'm trying to think of the name of the book here

24:23

Malcolm Gladwell talking

24:26

with strangers

24:27

So if you read that

24:30

you will see he goes kind of has a long winding

24:33

road that he's taking but

24:36

ultimately he says the same thing

24:38

that Trust brings

24:40

us a lot of good things It is the thing that society

24:43

is based on and that it's people

24:45

who do not trust That

24:48

are a problem and then of course

24:50

the problem is the people who betray our trust

24:53

So he makes exactly the same

24:55

point about how much of

24:58

a value that is

25:01

for our world

25:02

Yeah, I think you're exactly you're exactly right

25:05

to say that that that is what our society

25:07

is built upon and I I Really dislike

25:09

the idea that I would as a result of

25:11

this become a really untrusting person

25:13

I don't want to be that person So I think yeah

25:15

There's still a lot of value in trust and but

25:18

there is a lot of value in learning a few of

25:20

the red flags that We can look out for

25:21

I suppose Absolutely

25:24

Absolutely, and so across

25:26

our societies there are laws that make corporations

25:29

and religious bodies accountable for their actions

25:32

So we expect these organizations to self

25:34

monitor and change course when things go wrong But

25:38

what tools can victim survivors use to hold

25:40

cults to account when they don't want to play

25:42

ball?

25:43

Well as we've said

25:45

before one of the problems is the law

25:47

has not recognized this as

25:50

a problem yet although

25:52

I would think in

25:54

this age

25:57

Where we have so much more

26:00

information and awareness

26:02

about cults that we might

26:04

begin to get some traction on

26:07

those things that we mentioned before,

26:09

statutes of limitations, other laws about

26:11

coercive control. In my

26:13

case, we are litigating

26:16

where we have a law. Every

26:18

state has a law on sexual assault.

26:21

And so we are using

26:24

that law to try

26:27

to bring some accountability for survivors on

26:30

the civil side, as we said, not

26:32

the criminal side. And we're

26:35

also using some

26:37

laws creatively in

26:40

the United States. So for example,

26:43

we have a human trafficking law

26:45

in the United States on the federal

26:48

side, not state by state,

26:51

although there are state by state laws. But

26:53

on the federal side, we

26:55

noticed in 2018 or 19 perhaps, that Harvey

26:58

Weinstein, you

27:02

probably remember him, he kind

27:04

of ushered in the Me Too movement,

27:06

right? So we noticed that he

27:08

was being sued for violating

27:11

the Federal Human Trafficking Act.

27:13

And I was surprised,

27:16

right? I said to myself, wow,

27:19

I did not remember that he was

27:22

moving people across

27:24

state lines. And then when we

27:26

looked into it, what we found out is that the law

27:28

does not require that you move people

27:31

across state lines. What it

27:33

requires is something that when

27:35

I tell you, I think you will see how

27:38

it fits hand in glove

27:40

with cult-like

27:42

organizations. And

27:44

that is this, that you entice

27:48

or recruit someone

27:51

into a sex act for

27:54

anything of value, and you

27:56

do it by fraud or coercion.

27:59

So in Harvey Weinstein,

27:59

case, it was that he

28:02

had enticed these

28:04

actresses and he had

28:07

enticed them into a sex act

28:09

by promising them something

28:12

of value. I'm going to get you

28:14

in front of a producer, for example.

28:16

I'm going to make your career. And

28:19

that promise was fraudulent.

28:22

And so since most

28:25

cults are engaging

28:27

in enticement

28:29

and recruitment and they

28:32

are using fraud and coercion,

28:35

even when they are talking about religious

28:37

teachings, in many cases they

28:40

have distorted the teachings

28:43

to be able to fraudulently

28:46

promise good karma,

28:49

you know, any kind of spiritual

28:52

enlightenment, those kinds of

28:54

things. And so we're trying to

28:56

use the Human Trafficking Act as

28:59

another kind of tool,

29:02

another tool that could

29:04

help us

29:05

to bring again some accountability

29:08

for our clients. It also

29:11

has a 10-year statute of limitations.

29:13

It's not long enough. I

29:16

will point out that Canada has no statute

29:18

of limitations on sexual assault. But 10

29:21

is better than 2 or 5. And so where the facts

29:23

fit that

29:28

kind of a law,

29:31

then we're trying to use that. We're

29:33

also using civil RICO claims, which

29:36

is a particularly, probably

29:38

a US-centric

29:40

act, which was designed to try

29:42

to bring down mafia organizations.

29:45

And so looking at patterns of

29:48

illegal activity. And

29:50

so in that case, again,

29:53

we're using the sexual assault, although we

29:55

are seeing also now some forced

29:57

labor claims. these

30:00

are important in organizations

30:03

that are building

30:05

huge empires of money on

30:07

the backs of people who are

30:09

working for nothing and then walking away with

30:11

nothing.

30:12

Yes, I'm really particularly interested

30:15

in those as well because I think that's an

30:17

area where we're also lacking in Australia.

30:19

We're looking at kind of exploitative

30:22

labor situations when it comes to immigrants

30:25

and farm work or trafficking

30:28

and sex trafficking, but there's

30:30

a real blind spot in my view when it comes

30:32

to cults and people who come out

30:34

of cults who've worked for nothing

30:37

for years, have nothing to show for it. Yet,

30:40

they're just seen as having been volunteers.

30:42

So, yeah, I find that

30:45

really interesting that you're working on that angle too.

30:47

Yes, and the volunteer thing is

30:50

a very difficult, you know,

30:52

religions depend on volunteers

30:55

and that's all good until

30:58

people are working

31:00

seven days a week, 14 hours a day

31:02

for nothing. And I think that the

31:04

law needs to recognize that that's not

31:06

a volunteer situation anymore. You

31:09

know, a volunteer is somebody who comes in maybe

31:11

a couple of hours a day, a couple of days a week

31:14

and does something. But to me,

31:17

the forced labor, as

31:19

you've said, what we're

31:21

seeing are cases of immigrants,

31:24

farm workers, and a lot

31:26

of coercion. So, the law is looking

31:28

there. The cases have a lot

31:31

of coercion, people who have their passports

31:33

taken, people who are kept under

31:35

lock and key, you know, like

31:38

imprisoned practically. But

31:40

the false labor, actually

31:43

the forced labor, excuse me, should

31:45

extend way beyond that.

31:48

These laws should be broad enough

31:51

to be able to look at

31:53

situations in many

31:56

of these communities where

31:57

people are being

31:59

worked.

31:59

to death so

32:02

called voluntarily.

32:04

But what we know about coercion

32:07

is that it's not voluntary.

32:09

There has been manipulation and

32:11

people are not able to make that decision. Yeah,

32:14

that's exactly right. I

32:17

wondered if you could talk a bit about how someone

32:19

goes about suing a cult when

32:22

the organizational structure is

32:24

unclear. It's a very

32:27

interesting and difficult question. So

32:29

it is possible, of

32:31

course, to sue, in our

32:33

case where we're suing on sexual assault grounds,

32:36

what I would call the sexual predator,

32:39

the person within the cult who's done the

32:41

assaulting. But often they

32:43

do not have any

32:44

money. And

32:45

as I said before, you know, kind

32:47

of the currency of justice in

32:49

the civil justice system is

32:51

money, although there are other things that

32:53

we can ask for as well. But

32:56

that's the primary thing. And

32:58

just as an aside, and maybe we should

33:00

talk about this, I think a lot

33:02

of people say, well, but I'm not interested

33:05

in the money. But I do feel

33:07

that people who come out of these cults broken

33:10

and who come out with nothing,

33:12

having given years of their lives

33:15

to be betrayed,

33:17

they deserve money. And I think that

33:20

the reparations is something

33:22

that we should be acknowledging that

33:24

people are entitled to in these

33:26

situations. So that was a little detour

33:28

there. But if we can sue

33:31

the predator, then that's one thing, but often

33:33

they don't have money. So often we

33:35

are trying to sue the organization as

33:37

well. There's another reason that

33:39

we do that. And it's because

33:42

in many of these situations, people

33:45

feel as harmed by the

33:47

organization as they

33:49

do by the assaulter.

33:52

They have tried sometimes

33:55

to bring this to light.

33:57

In the organization, they've been

33:59

shamed. shunned,

34:01

they've been gas lit, they

34:03

have been isolated, they have

34:06

been thrown out. And

34:08

so often the harm that's

34:10

been done by the organization is

34:13

as great as what has been done

34:15

by the person who did the assaulting. But

34:18

you have pointed out what

34:20

is a difficulty, which is there has to be

34:23

some kind of organization, and

34:26

there has to be, when we're

34:28

going back many years as

34:31

we are now in New York and

34:33

California where we have what's

34:35

called a look back window. So we're

34:38

taking cases that happened many,

34:40

many years ago in this one

34:43

period of time right now

34:45

until November. And

34:47

so we're going back in some cases to 1970. And

34:51

we're needing to look at was

34:54

there an organization, was there

34:56

leadership, was there notice?

34:59

Because the claim against the organization

35:01

is that you knew or should

35:04

have known and you negligently

35:07

failed

35:08

to take some kind of action, which

35:10

is the case always in these

35:12

cults is that people know

35:15

what's going on, right? But they

35:17

don't do anything about it.

35:19

And this kind of comes back to what you were

35:22

saying earlier about some people don't necessarily

35:24

want money, but they want change from within,

35:26

which I think is really ambitious

35:29

because so many of these groups I've looked

35:31

at, it's just, it seems to me impossible

35:33

to reform them. They're

35:36

just built on so much kind of exploitation

35:38

and manipulation. And it's dependent on who's at the

35:40

top, I suppose. But have you seen any movement

35:43

with people who are trying to get change to happen

35:46

within the organization?

35:48

There is some, I would

35:50

say there is some, but

35:52

it really does it in my

35:55

experience and in my view, it depends

35:59

on how

35:59

far down the road of

36:02

cultic manipulation

36:04

and exploitation that they've been. Because

36:07

as you know so many of them simply

36:09

regroup, rebrand, call

36:12

themselves by a different name, move

36:14

to a different place, and start all

36:17

over again. And so

36:19

what we do as lawyers and

36:22

what is our ethical obligation

36:24

to do is what our clients want.

36:27

And I think that sometimes even if

36:30

you don't have long-term

36:33

hope that they will in fact

36:35

reform themselves, I

36:38

think there can be some satisfaction in

36:41

having enough power to try

36:44

to insist on some change even

36:46

if it isn't long-lasting. Do you know what

36:48

I mean? Like it will give

36:51

you some of the power

36:53

and agency back that was taken

36:55

from you. I

36:57

can absolutely see that and I think

36:59

even if there are short-term gains to be

37:01

made and the ways that they might show people

37:03

who are still enmeshed in particular organizations

37:06

that they don't necessarily have to be behaving

37:08

in certain ways and that's a big win as well.

37:11

It is absolutely and you know

37:13

there is I have to say that if we have enough

37:18

people, if we

37:20

have enough change in the law and we

37:22

have enough people suing

37:25

cults, we may instill

37:27

some fear

37:28

into people that they will

37:30

know that it is possible

37:33

for the law to reach out to them.

37:36

So many of them in my experience are believing

37:38

that the law doesn't apply to them, you know, that they're

37:41

answering to a kind of different law and

37:43

you know I really think that our survivors

37:47

of these experiences find

37:49

it satisfying when they can bring the

37:52

law to these organizations

37:56

to say you know what you are

37:58

not above the law.

37:59

Yes, you're so right. Many of these groups

38:02

that I've researched, whether it's through

38:05

a religious belief or some

38:07

other kind of belief system, they

38:09

believe that they are outside of the law.

38:11

They believe that their belief system is superior

38:13

to the worldly laws. Or however

38:16

they frame this, it means

38:19

that they don't feel that they should be beholden

38:21

to

38:22

what the rest of society is beholden to in

38:24

terms of

38:25

the legal structures. And

38:27

that is just one of the things that I think makes

38:30

it, for me, seem like a lot of these organizations

38:32

would be

38:32

very difficult to reform from within.

38:36

And they even teach that you are able

38:39

to lie on behalf of the organization because

38:41

it's outside of the law.

38:42

Yeah, that's exactly right. So

38:45

yes, and of course, the very

38:47

thing, or one of the very things

38:49

that makes them cults, is

38:52

this idea that either

38:54

they are speaking directly to God, which

38:57

is extremely convenient when

39:00

you think about it. I mean, very

39:02

hard to argue with that, which

39:05

of course, is the whole idea, I'm

39:07

sure. And so

39:10

you can't reform

39:13

an organization that is built

39:15

on that kind of a foundation

39:18

because you have to either give up

39:20

the leader, as

39:23

often happens, or as what does

39:25

not happen often enough, put them in jail.

39:28

But even then, you're going to have people who are

39:30

still believing in them. It

39:33

really is an insoluble

39:37

problem if we are trying to

39:39

keep, it's like the whack-a-mole thing

39:43

where you're hitting them and they are bouncing up in

39:45

another place. I think that

39:47

a combination of

39:49

a reform of the laws and also

39:51

education, as

39:52

you said, helping people to

39:54

understand what the red flags

39:57

are so that we keep people

39:59

from doing it.

39:59

getting involved in them in

40:02

the beginning, that those

40:05

two efforts might bring

40:07

us some sense

40:09

that we're winning a battle against these people.

40:12

And it's just it's fantastic to know that there are

40:15

some people with your talents and skills who

40:17

are fighting that battle, I have to say. I

40:20

know that you've been looking a lot at the

40:22

sexual assault side of things, sexual

40:24

abuse side of things with these organizations.

40:27

And so in some areas of law in

40:29

the US, as early as the 1980s, there have

40:32

been rulings in corporate cases that recognize

40:34

power differentials, which can mean sexual

40:36

harassment has occurred even when the sexual

40:38

relations between an employee and a

40:40

boss were consensual. And

40:43

so I'm wondering, does the law apply a similar

40:45

standard to the the gurus many

40:47

of us have heard about who claim their sexual interactions

40:49

were consensual?

40:51

Well, I think that that that

40:55

theory of the power

40:57

imbalance in the workplace,

41:00

and the power imbalance kind of

41:02

equaling no ability

41:04

to consent, is one

41:07

in which we are absolutely trying

41:09

to transfer that to these other cases.

41:12

And in addition, I mean, it's

41:15

it's not that different when you think

41:17

about it. For example, the reason

41:20

that that's the case in the workplace

41:22

is because the US courts recognize

41:24

that a job is very important to people. You

41:27

know, it's your income, you know, it's

41:29

your livelihood, and you should

41:31

not have to put it at risk. Because

41:34

someone is making sexual advances

41:36

to you or suggesting that

41:38

you have sex with them so that you can stay

41:40

in your job. It's not that different

41:43

in the cult environment. It

41:46

is coercion, number one, it

41:49

is a power imbalance. And

41:51

it's a huge power imbalance when

41:53

you take the very things

41:56

that that we've been talking about here

41:58

as the red flags of cults. You know,

42:00

the person who can't be wrong,

42:03

the person who is said

42:06

you are taught that they know

42:08

better than you do what is right for you,

42:10

how could that not be

42:13

an impossible power imbalance

42:16

in that kind of situation, right?

42:18

So yes, we are using

42:21

those kinds of arguments and

42:24

we are heartened, I have to say,

42:26

by the recent trial

42:28

in New York of Eugene

42:30

Carroll who sued the ex-president

42:33

Trump because if didn't everyone

42:35

around the world follow that trial, I

42:38

don't know, but we certainly did here.

42:41

And what I saw as a

42:44

lawyer was that a jury

42:46

was not swayed by

42:48

the well you didn't scream

42:51

argument,

42:52

right? And so when I

42:55

see that, I think that in

42:57

fact culture is changing, the culture

42:59

of consent

43:01

is changing all around

43:03

us and we are now seeing

43:05

it filtered down, we hope, into

43:08

the jury box where

43:10

a jury of our peers does

43:12

not necessarily believe that

43:15

if you did not scream, you are

43:19

lying about being raped. And

43:22

so all of those things I think are positive

43:24

for us. I will also mention

43:26

that one of the reasons I mentioned

43:29

the human trafficking law, there's no

43:31

consent

43:32

in it. There's no issue

43:34

of did you consent to be enticed

43:38

or fraudulently recruited

43:41

into sex.

43:42

There is no issue of consent.

43:45

And so using that kind of law,

43:47

which we are hoping, you know, I feel

43:49

like knocking on wood, you know, we're

43:51

hoping that, you know, because

43:53

we're very early in our trajectory

43:56

of using that, but we see cases in the United

43:58

States where it's been used similarly. And

44:00

I think that it also

44:03

gives us some ways to expand

44:06

our idea of what trafficking

44:08

and forced labor is.

44:10

One hundred percent, and I really

44:13

look forward to seeing how that plays out. And

44:16

my fingers are crossed I'm knocking on wood at this end

44:19

as well. It

44:21

sounds really quite promising. Hopefully

44:23

it is. And so I

44:25

wondered, is there a path for

44:27

other

44:28

people working in the field

44:30

of law to be doing what you're doing

44:33

so everybody's not running to carol

44:35

murchison to take on these cases?

44:38

Oh, yes, there are. There

44:40

are many, many people

44:43

in the United States who are doing this. And

44:46

I suspect around the world as well,

44:49

because, you know, all we need

44:51

to see is a kind of creative

44:54

way of using the law. As

44:56

lawyers, we need people

44:59

to get out there and advocate for change

45:01

in the law so that we can use the

45:04

law so that we can take

45:06

the cases that we

45:08

need to take for this

45:10

whole

45:11

vast group of people

45:13

who don't have a legal remedy. So

45:16

yes, there are people who

45:18

are doing this. Works, lawyers,

45:21

yes, lots in the United States.

45:23

You know, there's a number of

45:25

cases going on in the United

45:27

States that we are watching outside

45:30

of our own law firm to see how

45:32

people are doing. We're watching

45:34

the human trafficking field. We're

45:37

watching La Luz del Mundo,

45:39

which is a big, huge cult in Mexico

45:41

that's being sued in the United States. There

45:44

are a lot of cases, small and

45:46

large, that are taking place. And

45:48

we have to hope that as

45:51

a society that we

45:53

can see that this is

45:55

an injustice that needs to be

45:57

dealt with within the legal system.

45:59

and within our legislatures, quite frankly.

46:02

It's just, it's fantastic to

46:05

speak to someone who's really doing so much

46:07

amazing work in this area because

46:09

I often, I'm just speaking to

46:11

people on the other end who have come out of

46:13

a cult and are experiencing a lot of trauma.

46:15

So it's, you know, I'm very interested

46:17

in what we can do to affect

46:20

change and to try and improve things. And I

46:22

absolutely see this as like a human

46:24

rights issue. And I mean, you

46:26

know, what an interesting thing you've decided to do

46:29

with your so-called retirement. Yes,

46:34

my so-called retirement, I've known as a

46:36

person who's been retired a number of times

46:39

in the past and failed. I'm

46:42

sorry to say, or I'm happy to say

46:44

actually, that I have failed miserably

46:46

at retirement. And I must

46:49

say

46:49

that I am inspired by

46:51

a story that someone told

46:53

me about how abortion

46:56

laws were changed in Ireland. And

46:59

what I've been told at least is that

47:01

a number of women, older

47:04

women, grandmotherly old

47:06

women with gray hair, when

47:08

contraceptives were illegal, went

47:10

to the police station with contraceptives

47:13

and turned themselves in. And no

47:15

one could, you know, quite bear

47:18

to prosecute them. And so

47:20

it led to a revolution. So I think that

47:23

those of us who are perhaps

47:25

as I have been struggling through retirement,

47:28

you know, our services and our talents

47:31

and skills are much needed.

47:34

So how lucky am I that I have found

47:36

the place to put that in service

47:39

of people who have

47:41

trusted and

47:42

been betrayed.

47:44

Indeed. And I

47:46

just wanna finish up on a question about

47:48

what has working with victim

47:51

survivors, these people who you just mentioned,

47:53

what has that taught you about cults and

47:55

their

47:56

tactics and their practices and the harms

47:58

that they inflict?

48:00

Well, I can say in terms of

48:02

the harms, to start with

48:04

that, that it is enormous,

48:07

the psychological damage that

48:09

is done to people. I think

48:12

that part of the harm

48:14

is that because of the way that

48:16

manipulation and coercion is used

48:18

in cults, that people come

48:21

out actually not understanding

48:23

what happened to them. And so

48:26

it is not uncommon that we will

48:28

have people who have been processing

48:31

the sexual assault that they endured

48:33

for years, not understanding

48:36

that they were actually assaulted. And

48:39

it really robs people

48:42

of their lives. On the other hand,

48:44

what I have also learned is

48:46

that the survivors that

48:49

I have dealt with are enormously

48:52

resilient, resourceful.

48:55

They have been through extraordinary

48:58

harm of

48:59

all kinds, not just

49:01

sexual harm, but as you've

49:03

mentioned, emotional

49:05

and financial. And in

49:07

a society where we tend

49:10

to look down on them as having

49:12

made a bad choice, as

49:14

if that was something that was their fault.

49:17

So I think they have a lot of things stacked

49:19

against them. But I see

49:21

people recovering. I think that that's

49:24

the main thing for me is that we

49:26

see our clients as enormously resourceful,

49:29

purposeful, dogged

49:31

in trying

49:34

to gain back some of that agency

49:36

and accountability that was taken from them.

49:39

So true. And I think a lot of the people

49:41

I speak with, the very reason that

49:44

they, if they joined rather than having

49:46

been born or brought up in a cult, so

49:48

many of the personal qualities

49:51

that caused them to be so devoted means

49:53

that they have so much to give, right? They

49:55

have this amazing devotion. Absolutely.

49:58

Yes. And to go back to what we saw,

49:59

started with that they are trusting

50:02

human beings, you know and that

50:05

you and I and every single

50:07

one of your listeners Could have

50:09

made the same decision

50:11

at any particular point

50:14

those kinds of transition points in our

50:16

lives Where we happen

50:18

to meet the wrong person and so

50:20

that's been their path But

50:23

they are the very qualities and in

50:25

fact that perhaps made

50:27

them Vulnerable to this

50:29

were the spiritual seekers

50:32

people who wanted to inquire

50:35

as to the meaning of life and

50:38

to Make a better world.

50:40

Those are all the positive things that

50:43

they still have to give us. Yeah,

50:45

that's exactly right Is

50:47

there anything else that you wanted to let our

50:49

listeners know or speak about

50:51

before we finish up today Carol? No,

50:54

I don't think so I would say that again

50:56

that I think the main thing that those

50:58

of us who have not been in cults Need

51:01

to do

51:02

is to support those

51:05

people who are coming out

51:08

understanding that the vulnerabilities

51:11

that they have are the same vulnerabilities

51:14

that we have and That they

51:16

need our support. They need services

51:19

from society they need

51:22

therapeutic care to be able to

51:24

process and that as a society

51:27

we should be helping to reintegrate

51:31

people back into

51:32

Society when they've had come

51:34

out of these terrible experiences. Yes,

51:37

and often they've been taught that You know those

51:39

in society are evil or bad or

51:41

not worth their time So I think we can do a lot

51:43

to prove to them that that is absolutely

51:45

not the case That's a

51:47

that's a very good idea that we

51:50

have the idea that we're going to prove that

51:52

all of that Was that was taught to them was wrong

51:55

and that people do care?

51:57

exactly Carol Mertissen.

51:59

Thank you Thank you so much for your time today. It's been an

52:01

absolute pleasure to speak with you. Thank

52:04

you so much. My pleasure as well.

52:35

Thanks so much for listening, and you can find

52:37

links to some of Carol's work in the show notes. You

52:40

can access early and ad-free episodes

52:42

and support the production of this independent podcast

52:44

via Patreon, patreon.com

52:46

slash LTASPod,

52:48

or with a one-off donation or merch purchase. You

52:51

can also grab a copy of my book, Do As I Say.

52:54

That link's in the show notes too.

52:56

If you've been personally affected by involvement

52:58

in a cult or would like to support those who have

53:00

been, you can find support with or donate

53:02

to cult information and family support

53:05

if you're in Australia via cifs.org.au,

53:08

and you can find resources outside of Australia with

53:11

the International Cultic Studies Association

53:13

via icsahome.com.

53:16

Let's Talk About Sects is produced and presented

53:19

by me, Sarah Steele, editing

53:21

and mixing by Matt Brazzell,

53:22

and with music by Joe Gould, whose wonderful

53:25

soundtrack album Nobody Joins a Cult

53:27

is out now. Thanks again

53:29

to Carol Murchison for taking the time to share

53:31

some of her work with me for this

53:33

episode.