Mark Penn is best known for two things: his devotion to centristpolitics and his former role as the top pollster and strategist for Billand Hillary Clinton. Lately, he’s added a third: a barrage of polls thatshow a large majority of Americans are crying out for an alternative toTrump and Biden. 

On this episode of Deep Dive, he talks with host and Playbook co-authorRyan Lizza about his relationship (or lack thereof) with No Labels – agroup promoting a third-party candidacy – the recent GOP primaryresults, his controversial polls, and why he thinks that Nikki Haley maystill have a big role to play in this year’s election.

Ryan Lizza is a Playbook co-author for POLITICO.Mark Penn is the CEO of Stagwell and former Clinton strategist.Kara Tabor is a producer for POLITICO audio. Alex Keeney is a senior producer for POLITICO audio.