8:00

the Constitution was all about. You do

8:02

things the right way. And sometimes you

8:04

win an election, sometimes your bill gets

8:06

passed, sometimes it doesn't. But

8:08

we always treat people with respect and

8:11

make sure their voice gets heard. Yeah,

8:14

I think anyone who's ever had

8:16

the experience of responding to an

8:18

email from an anonymous person on

8:21

the internet or calling someone.

8:24

And what usually happens is the person

8:26

is completely shocked that you responded and

8:31

often will apologize for how angry they were

8:33

in the email and say something like, I

8:35

didn't really think that

8:38

there was an actual human on the other side

8:40

of my vitriol. You talk to

8:42

a lot of journalists. We've all had that

8:44

experience, I'm sure. As a politician, you've

8:47

had that experience as well. It

8:49

immediately deescalates things

8:51

just like realizing it's another

8:53

human being. One

8:59

question that this initiative raises is, do

9:03

you personally ever take

9:05

an inventory of your own beliefs and

9:08

ask yourself whether you're wrong about anything?

9:11

Yes, quite often. I'm

9:13

a big fan of Adam Grant.

9:15

He has a book called Think

9:17

Again. It's, I made my

9:20

staff read it, my cabinet members.

9:22

Adam talks about this concept of

9:24

curiosity and how important curiosity is, which is

9:27

why, again, that question I think is so

9:29

important. Just being curious about the world. I

9:31

speak often about humility as well. Judges

9:35

learned at hand, talked

9:38

about this, that the spirit of liberty is the

9:40

spirit that is not too short is right. I'm

9:43

probably not quoting this exactly, but the spirit of liberty

9:45

is that spirit which seeks to understand the minds of

9:47

other men and women. That humility

9:50

that comes from questioning ourselves,

9:53

Oliver Cromwell said, I beseech you in

9:56

the bowels of Christ, think ye mistaken. asking

10:00

myself and trying to be curious, am

10:03

I right about this? I wanna be sure that

10:05

I'm right about this. I don't

10:07

think there's enough of that happening in

10:09

politics today, not just with politicians, certainly

10:12

with politicians, but with all

10:14

of us just personally, just asking ourselves, why

10:16

do I believe what I believe? And

10:19

am I sure that I'm right? Most

10:21

of the time the answer is yes. I've

10:23

reevaluated, I've thought about this, I've reexamined it

10:26

and yeah, I do feel this way.

10:29

It's interesting that politics is

10:31

the only career or

10:36

whatever job where we criticize people

10:38

for changing their minds. Usually when

10:40

people learn more and do things

10:42

differently, that's seen as a sign

10:45

of growth. In politics,

10:47

you're a flip-flopper or you don't have

10:49

a core. Now, far too

10:51

often politicians change their mind only because they're

10:53

chasing votes, not because they've actually thought about

10:55

what they're doing and I get that, but

10:58

I do think curiosity and humility are

11:00

two important attributes that we all need

11:02

a little more of today. Well,

11:05

you're right, because it extends to journalism as

11:07

well, because a kind of

11:09

easy gotcha strain of

11:11

journalism is to point out inconsistencies.

11:13

And sometimes inconsistency

11:17

is someone being hypocritical and sometimes

11:20

it's a genuine rethinking of something.

11:22

What's something you've changed your mind

11:24

about, Governor? So, gosh, I've changed

11:27

my mind about a few

11:30

things. I'm

11:33

trying to think of a really good example of a time where

11:35

I changed my mind. On

11:39

the immigration issue, that's

11:42

one where we've had a lot

11:44

of conversations recently, for

11:47

sure. We live in a

11:49

state that is very welcoming of the

11:51

state. That is very

11:53

welcoming of refugees and

11:56

we always have been. And I think that's an

11:59

important one. Worked really closely. closely to

12:01

help refugees. And that's been

12:03

kind of our mindset. And yet what we're seeing now

12:05

is we're being overwhelmed in

12:08

our state. And we're

12:10

pushing back on this

12:12

administration pleading with Congress to do

12:14

anything. We have to secure

12:17

the border. And although I've always talked about securing

12:19

the border, that's become an even higher priority right

12:21

now. I will tell you

12:23

another one, maybe that's even more impactful. I

12:25

gave a speech shortly after the Polk shooting

12:28

in Utah, where I talked about

12:31

growing up, I

12:33

treated some kids with disrespect. I wasn't

12:35

a bully, but just behind their backs

12:37

and made fun of some kids. Didn't

12:39

know that they were gay, found out

12:41

later that they were. And

12:43

certainly as I got to know more people,

12:47

that changed my heart in ways, I've

12:51

gotten to know good friends and amazing

12:53

human beings who are LGBTQ. And

12:55

of course, those sadly, we're

12:58

in a time where those culture wars are raging,

13:00

but treating them with love and respect is

13:02

something that I didn't do when I was

13:04

younger and something that I've gotten better at

13:06

over time. For

13:13

nearly four years, the American people have

13:15

faced the pain of high inflation and

13:17

global conflict. Now more than

13:19

ever, it's time to end

13:21

political gamesmanship and implement policies

13:23

that help benefit Americans. Let's

13:25

work together on solutions that

13:27

help address the consequences of

13:29

inflation and secure our energy

13:31

future. Visit lightsonenergy.com/energy leadership to

13:34

learn more. I'm

13:44

curious about the story

13:46

of the toast to

13:48

Biden. Did

13:51

the president talk to you about that afterwards?

13:55

Yeah, we've talked about that before. What did he say? Well,

13:59

he thanked me. for doing

14:01

it. I should note that the

14:03

chair of the National Governors Association, historically,

14:05

we have a dinner at the White House

14:07

and whoever is the chair toasts the president.

14:10

And so we had Democrats that toasted President

14:12

Trump. And of course, it was my turn.

14:14

Right. That was controversial that

14:17

they did. It was. And there was a

14:19

question about, you know, should you do this

14:21

or would you do this? And I

14:24

just think it's silly. It's so silly

14:26

that we can't do something like that.

14:29

You know, the president thanked me for doing it and said, I'm

14:31

sure this won't be good for you. And he

14:34

was right. You know, it wasn't good for

14:36

me. But but those are the dumb things.

14:38

Those are the things that shouldn't matter. Those

14:41

are I think we

14:43

need traditions and and

14:45

we need bipartisan organizations. The the NGA

14:47

is one of the last bastions of

14:49

bipartisanship where governors really do work together.

14:51

We work very closely together. Frank Luntz

14:53

said that governors are the last adults

14:55

in the room when it comes to

14:57

politics. And and I'm grateful that I

15:00

have so many great Republicans and Democrats where

15:02

we can steal ideas from each other. And

15:04

I'm grateful we have a place to meet

15:06

where we can have these traditions where I

15:09

get to toast the president and and and

15:11

still sue him many times. And that's OK.

15:13

We can we can disagree on these things,

15:16

but not not hate each other. You

15:20

won't be back in that role,

15:22

I assume, if Trump

15:24

is president. But if you were, would

15:28

you would would you

15:30

toast President Trump? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I would

15:32

have no problem with that at all. And

15:35

I will tell you, Jared Polis will be

15:38

the chair in a month in July and

15:40

he'll get that opportunity if Trump is reelected.

15:42

And so, again, you know, I assume that

15:44

Jared will do the same thing that I

15:46

did and the same thing that his predecessors

15:49

did before. All right. We're

15:51

recording this the day before

15:54

the Biden-Trump debate. So we're going to

15:56

going in a little blind and talking

15:58

about the Trump-Biden debate. in matchup because

16:00

if something happened Thursday night, we

16:03

obviously don't know anything

16:05

about it. With

16:07

that caveat, you have said

16:09

that you think Trump will win as

16:12

we sit here pre-debate. Do you still think that? All

16:15

of the polling suggests that Trump

16:18

is doing very well. It

16:21

doesn't seem like anything's moving people.

16:23

I think this is so baked. Either you

16:26

support him or you don't. By

16:28

now, I don't know what new revelations are going to

16:30

come out. I don't know that new court cases are

16:32

going to do anything to change that. President

16:35

Biden is not getting any younger. I think that's a

16:37

real problem. It's a real thing.

16:41

You can try to dismiss it, and certainly his

16:43

supporters do, but that's not going away. We can

16:45

all see it with our own eyes. We all

16:47

experience it. We all have family members. We

16:50

see what happens when you get over 80. I

16:53

don't think that people over 80 should be running

16:55

a country. I think

16:57

that's a huge mistake. I

17:00

made some of those jokes at the gridiron as well. I

17:03

told people, if I ran

17:05

for president in 2052, I would

17:08

still be younger than both of the candidates

17:10

today. That

17:12

tells you where we are right now. I

17:15

can't believe we ended up with these two candidates

17:17

again, but I do still think Trump has a

17:19

very good chance of winning. What

17:23

are you going to do about Trump

17:26

and the general election? With Larry

17:28

Hogan now leaving

17:30

the stage, he could be

17:32

back as a senator, but it's not a sure

17:34

thing. With Sununu

17:36

retiring, if

17:39

Trump is president, you're going to be

17:41

the designated anti-Trump governor,

17:46

one of the few statewide

17:49

elected Republicans who is not

17:51

on the Trump train.

17:54

Have you thought about what

17:56

that means in terms of your

17:59

role? in national politics? So

18:03

it is what

18:05

it is. We've been trying to figure this

18:07

out for eight years. There's nothing new here.

18:10

I will say, and while I

18:12

understand the reference and I know that's

18:14

kind of where people put me, I

18:16

also always

18:18

try to point out that I'm not

18:20

anti-Trump. I

18:23

have serious issues with some of the things he's done.

18:26

I love some of the other things he's done. I

18:30

try to treat everyone with dignity and respect.

18:33

You'll note at the gridiron, I

18:35

went off script at the end and

18:38

defended MAGA people, even though I don't

18:40

consider myself a MAGA Republican. I

18:43

think I'm far more interested in

18:45

why people are so supportive of

18:48

the president. I think that's important

18:50

to me. I

18:52

will help the president. I want the president

18:54

to succeed. I want President Trump to succeed.

18:57

And so I will do everything possible. As

19:02

hard as it is to kind of label somebody,

19:04

or easy as it is to label somebody, I'm

19:06

not a Liz Cheney or

19:08

an Adam Kinzinger. God,

19:11

that's interesting. I think that's important for

19:13

people to know. You don't self-identify with

19:15

that group. Right. Again,

19:17

because I don't think that's helpful.

19:20

And far too often, that group

19:22

turns into the very thing that

19:24

they're pushing against. And maybe

19:26

that is because we feel like we have to label

19:29

people, and there is no nuance today. But

19:31

it's like- Tell me why. Tell

19:34

me what's wrong with the Cheney,

19:36

Kinzinger, Bulwark, Tim Miller, I'm just,

19:39

you know, the

19:41

names. What's wrong

19:44

with that view of

19:46

Trump, that wing of, they still consider themselves

19:48

Republicans, of course, so that wing of the

19:50

Republican Party. What's the critique here? Sure. And

19:53

again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them. They're great

19:55

people. I really

19:57

love them. They're ideas. We're talking about

19:59

their ideas. We're disagreeing better. We

20:01

are. Look, again, I

20:03

think it's important to push back on things that we

20:05

disagree with, and I want people to be true to

20:07

themselves, and I've tried to do that. It would have

20:10

been much easier for me to just say, I'm voting

20:12

for Trump every four years and that's it.

20:15

I've written people in now since post-2012,

20:19

but I don't know

20:21

that they're changing anybody's minds. I

20:25

don't think they're changing hearts and minds

20:27

at all. I don't think that

20:29

I think they've lumped

20:32

everybody who supports Trump into

20:35

being just like Trump instead of

20:37

trying to understand them and get

20:40

to know them and have some

20:42

sympathy, some empathy, and

20:45

again, trying to help

20:47

them and our party

20:49

be better. And for

20:51

me, that's the biggest

20:54

issue. I

20:56

have a very optimistic view of who we are

20:58

and who we can be again and the

21:01

fact that some people have lost that

21:03

optimism. I want to try to

21:05

understand why, and I want to solve those problems

21:08

so that they don't feel. Look, there's

21:10

a reason they wanted to throw a brick through a window, and

21:13

just telling them they're terrible human beings

21:15

for supporting Trump isn't going to change

21:17

a single harder mind. Well,

21:21

what have you learned about, I mean,

21:23

it sounds like what you're saying is

21:25

you try really hard to listen

21:28

to his supporters. You're in a

21:30

very conservative state with a very active MAGA

21:34

contingent faction.

21:39

What have you learned that you think the

21:41

Kinzingers and the Chaneys don't

21:43

understand? Well, I've learned

21:45

that, so I grew up in a small

21:47

town. I went back to

21:49

raise my kids in that small town. 1,200

21:52

people, we've been there for 160 years on

21:55

the same farm that my great-great-great grandfather settled in.

21:58

Wait, how many greats? Great, great, great,

22:00

three greats. Yeah, yeah,

22:02

the first pioneers to come to Utah.

22:04

They came across, they covered wagons and

22:06

Brigham Young sent them to Fairview and

22:08

on that same farm, that is where

22:10

my house is. I'm still farming

22:13

the exact same land. Wow, so

22:15

you trace yourself back to the early

22:17

LDS. Yeah,

22:20

every one of my ancestral lions came

22:22

across the plains between 1847 and 1866.

22:27

So that's who we are. But

22:31

I only say that because these

22:34

are my neighbors, my

22:36

family members that are

22:39

Trump supporters and that

22:42

want Trump to be reelected. And

22:45

so I care

22:47

deeply, these are my people.

22:50

I've seen what happens when the old economy, I

22:52

live in coal country, so many

22:54

of my friends, dads and my

22:56

friends themselves and some family members have worked

22:58

in the coal mines. As those

23:00

coal mines are kind of shutting down, the old economy

23:03

is leaving, but the new economy

23:05

hasn't come yet. The promises that

23:07

have been made by both political

23:09

parties for years have never come to

23:11

fruition and people

23:13

are feeling isolated. The world is changing

23:15

so quickly. I think that

23:18

people feel unmoored. Their

23:20

moral values, faith,

23:24

we're losing faith and friendships. If you look

23:26

at church attendance is down across the country,

23:29

what are we replacing those close friendships

23:31

with? There's a sense of loss,

23:33

a sense of loneliness, a rise

23:35

in depression, deaths of despair,

23:38

all of those things. And so at

23:41

some point people do lash out.

23:43

And then you have a candidate who's

23:46

taking advantage of that. And

23:48

again, I think has done some good

23:51

things and some not good

23:53

things at all. I recognize

23:55

that, but I

23:58

think both parties could do better. at

24:00

trying to understand and deal with

24:02

those issues. I

24:06

think the defining feature of

24:08

the critique from Cheney and

24:10

Kinzinger is probably, is close

24:12

to Biden's critique, which is

24:14

about democracy and

24:16

respect for the rule of law

24:19

and institutions and all

24:21

of the stuff

24:24

that flows from what happened

24:26

on January 6th. What

24:29

would you say your differences

24:31

are with that

24:33

group of politicians and their view

24:35

about what Trump represents in terms

24:38

of his threat

24:40

to democracy? So

24:43

again, I don't know that they're wrong.

24:46

Obviously I've been very vocal about January 6th

24:49

and how awful that was.

24:51

Never come back on that

24:53

in any way. My

24:55

critique isn't so much in what they're worried

24:59

about, my critique is about how they go about

25:01

convincing people that there's a better way and

25:03

helping people to understand why

25:05

these things matter. And

25:08

that's really where I come down.

25:10

I look, if Trump was

25:12

president before, we made it. A

25:14

lot of people said we couldn't survive four years of

25:17

Joe Biden and here we are. Hasn't been great.

25:21

I have a tremendous amount of

25:23

issues and concerns with the policies

25:25

and the way things, they've

25:27

handled inflation and other issues, especially, I

25:30

mean the border is a disgrace. We

25:33

could talk about those all day. But at

25:35

the end of the day, we're resilient people and we will

25:37

get through the next four years. And then the

25:39

hope is that there is something else after

25:42

that, that there is something else out there.

25:44

The bench is very deep, especially in our

25:46

party. We have so many amazing candidates, some

25:48

of who ran this time, some who will

25:51

run next time. And I

25:53

just feel like those candidates won't be either

25:55

Biden or Trump. And I can't wait for

25:57

that day to come. But

26:00

I do have to say, I think we need

26:02

an optimistic vision of the country. I think people

26:05

are desperate. 70% of

26:07

Americans, according to the polling that

26:09

we've seen from More In Common and other groups,

26:12

hate what's happening in politics today. They're

26:14

desperate for something else. So that gives

26:16

me hope that there is a market

26:18

for something that is different. Neither

26:21

party is addressing that market. There's

26:23

a market failure happening right now,

26:25

but that market failure won't continue

26:27

forever. The first party to figure this out is

26:30

going to win by 20 points. You're

26:32

likely to run the

26:34

next open primary? For

26:37

president? No, for president?

26:39

No. No. This

26:42

will be my last election. We don't

26:44

have term limits in Utah, but I've

26:46

said very vocally, I'm done. I will

26:48

not be running for president. I want

26:50

nothing to do with Congress or Washington

26:52

DC. Really? You have no interest in

26:54

running for president? No. No. I

26:57

think you might have heard from Fairview, Utah do things like

26:59

that. Oh, come on. Well,

27:03

you might have said that

27:05

about being governor now. Well, sure.

27:08

That's true. But again, I understand

27:10

the state of where our party

27:12

is right now. And

27:14

Utah is an outlier and I'm grateful

27:17

that it is. I know

27:19

I couldn't get elected. I would have to change who

27:21

I am to get elected really

27:23

maybe anywhere else. And

27:25

I'm not interested in doing that. I have a

27:27

great life outside of politics and I can't wait

27:30

to get back to it. I wonder if you

27:32

could just sort of guide our listeners through primaries

27:35

Tuesday in Utah. You

27:38

won your race. Your

27:41

sort of breakdown of what happened

27:43

on Tuesday. There were at least four

27:45

or five interesting races

27:49

that are relevant, I think,

27:51

outside of Utah. Let's

27:53

talk about what's going on politically in

27:55

Utah and especially within the Republican Party.

27:58

Sure. Well, it's definitely an

28:00

interesting. time in the Republican Party, both

28:02

in Utah and outside of Utah. But

28:05

it's been well-documented that Utah's a little

28:07

different when it comes to our Republican

28:09

Party politics, maybe a little bit of

28:11

a throwback to kind of a Reagan-era

28:14

Republican Party. Certainly there are tensions within

28:16

that party here in the state of

28:18

Utah between kind of the Trump Republicans

28:21

and the more historically

28:24

conservative Republicans that we're used

28:26

to. And

28:30

we've seen that play out in the past few

28:32

elections. I think it was definitely on display in

28:34

this election. When it stags as his name, didn't

28:36

get above 30%. And

28:39

so I think my race

28:41

and that race and other races just

28:43

show that the Utah Republican Party is

28:46

still a little bit different, still a

28:48

little bit of an outlier. I think

28:50

in a very good way, in an

28:52

optimistic way, in a forward thinking, problem

28:54

solving, traditional conservative way, not

28:57

necessarily the populist way that we

28:59

see in other places in the

29:01

country. And Celeste

29:04

Malloy, who was endorsed by Trump

29:06

and Speaker Mike Johnson, beat back

29:09

this challenge from a more right-leaning

29:11

candidate, Colby Jenkins, who Mike Lee

29:13

endorsed. That was

29:16

Utah, too. In Utah,

29:18

three, the race to replace John Curtis,

29:20

Mike Kennedy, the more conservative candidate beat

29:23

case Lawrence, a

29:25

little more moderate. Is

29:28

there any trend you see in these primaries?

29:31

When we talk about, there's so

29:33

much conversation about the Latimer Bowman

29:36

race in New York, about

29:38

the progressives versus the moderates. And it's

29:40

primary season, so we're talking about these

29:42

fights within the parties. Do you see

29:44

the evidence on Tuesday

29:47

of either side in Utah

29:49

Republican politics having the upper hand? Well,

29:52

certainly. And again, I always kind of

29:55

push back on the moderate versus conservative

29:58

moniker. I

30:00

believe I'm the real conservative in the race.

30:02

If I said that, you're going to

30:04

be taken. I think we need a new

30:06

language for some of this stuff. We do,

30:08

and I'm not necessarily saying you, I just

30:10

think traditionally in the media, that's the way

30:12

these things get posited. I will tell you,

30:15

the Celeste Malloy race is a

30:17

good example of that. Yes, Trump did come in

30:19

at the end and endorse her, but she was

30:21

not the MAGA candidate in the

30:23

race, which was kind of interesting. Oh, right,

30:25

absolutely. I should have pointed that out. Yeah,

30:28

yeah, yeah. This was one where he went

30:30

with the sort of establishment choice. Correct,

30:33

so I think in Utah, and

30:35

again, this gets a little hyper-local,

30:37

but we have a convention system

30:39

where delegates, 4,000 delegates go

30:41

to a convention, and

30:43

then they get to vote on these candidates as well.

30:45

There is another path to the ballot, a signature path,

30:47

which many of us take. Most of

30:49

us do both the convention and the signature path,

30:52

which is what I did. What I can tell

30:54

you, the real takeaway from that

30:56

race is the candidates that did well in

30:58

the convention with the

31:01

more extremist delegates voting for

31:03

them did very poorly in

31:07

the primary. And so I

31:09

think that's kind of what we saw

31:11

in Utah, that Utah, that more traditional

31:13

conservative Utah Republican held

31:15

this election. Tell us a little

31:18

bit about your convention speech. I

31:20

encourage listeners to check it out

31:23

on YouTube. You got up there,

31:25

you had some teleprompters,

31:27

and you basically told the crowd, I don't know if

31:30

this was performative or this was real, but you said,

31:32

I'm not gonna deliver the speech that is

31:35

loaded on the teleprompter essentially, and you

31:37

kind of just gave remarks off the

31:39

cuff. Tell me, remind me, let

31:41

me know if that's accurate. And

31:44

what were you gonna say versus what you

31:46

ended up saying? Yeah, so that is accurate.

31:48

We had a more

31:50

traditional speech plan talking about everything we'd

31:52

accomplished over the past four years and

31:54

the reception, we knew that there would

31:56

be some of that, and certainly we're

31:58

used to it. Every governor-