0:00

Hi.

0:02

I'm Greyya, and this is the climate question

0:04

where we ask simply, what on Earth

0:06

can we do about climate change? Podcasts

0:10

from the BBC World service are supported

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by advertising.

0:24

You can picture it right? The year

0:26

end party. A time to see old

0:28

friends and family. time to reconnect

0:31

and

0:31

recharge. And it's all going

0:33

swimmingly. And

0:35

then remember

0:36

by the punch bowl, this global

0:39

warming, climate change. How do

0:41

loudly do I have to shout

0:42

it? Is a hoax? Awkward.

0:45

Right? What do you do? Well,

0:48

first, let's get the band going again.

0:59

Let's not let it ruin the night. There

1:01

is a positive way to deal with this,

1:03

and we're here to help. This is

1:05

the climate question from the BBC World

1:07

Service. I'm Neil Russel. Today,

1:10

we're asking, how do you engage

1:12

with climate deniers? And

1:16

rolling Debenair into the party.

1:19

We have the BBC's Marco Silva.

1:21

He's a climate disinformation reporter.

1:23

Welcome Marco. Hello. Remind

1:25

us what your job entails? Well,

1:28

in a

1:28

nutshell, I keep a close eye

1:30

on the people spinning lies, blowing

1:33

smoke about climate change all

1:35

around the

1:35

world. That is a full time job.

1:38

Yes. Pretty full on too, believe

1:40

me. I can imagine, and how can

1:42

you help people in their party predicament?

1:44

At home for the holidays, sitting around

1:46

with family and friends who may have

1:48

strong, but perhaps ill informed

1:50

views about climate change. Well, this

1:53

is something I've actually looked into

1:55

before as part of my job. And as

1:57

it turns out, there's a a bit

1:59

of scientific research out there

2:01

offering some very useful

2:03

advice. Wow. Okay. Well,

2:05

I can't wait to hear it, but First, I want

2:07

you to meet somebody. You can sit back.

2:09

Her name is Sarah Ott. We

2:15

start with Sarah growing up in

2:17

Florida, right down there in the southeastern United

2:20

States. It's the nineties. She

2:22

flicks on some cartoons. Ari,

2:24

CYCLE recycle.

2:27

C0NSERVE conserv.

2:30

The show challenged kids to get involved

2:32

in their communities. And Little Sarah

2:34

took it up. I always went around

2:36

in my neighborhood with my red wagon,

2:38

and I picked up litter. And then when

2:40

I brought it home to my mom, she

2:42

helped me sort it into recycling. She's

2:44

still doing this every year, though

2:47

I'm not sure if the red wagon is still part

2:49

of the mix. She was about twelve

2:51

years old when she first heard about climate

2:53

change and it really made an impression on her.

2:55

She made it the focus of her school science

2:57

project. And at the time, I remember

2:59

thinking, well, this is gonna suck for

3:01

people, you know, a long time from now.

3:04

You weren't This was like I

3:06

don't know, twenty years ago.

3:08

Like, this wasn't that long ago.

3:11

I think, you know, I just kinda

3:12

thought that it was SO FAR

3:14

IN THE FUTURE AND NOT GOING TO

3:16

EFFECT TO ME. Reporter: BUT HER FUTURE

3:18

WAS FULL OF SURPRISES THAT

3:20

EARLY INFORMED PASSION FOR CLIMATE

3:23

CHANGE would itself change.

3:25

When I got to say college

3:28

age, I started to

3:30

be around people who were more denial

3:33

list of science in

3:35

general. You know, just they don't think

3:37

that evolution is a thing or they don't

3:40

think that climate change is real. Mhmm.

3:42

And what kinds of things were people saying about

3:44

climate change then? I think it was mostly

3:46

just like, oh, climate change,

3:48

that's not happening. Like, we all know. Like, that's

3:51

just a joke. Right? And I was I was kinda

3:53

surprised. But after

3:55

a while, kind of beat you down, you know. And you're like, okay.

3:57

I guess it is just a joke

3:59

or not a real thing. Where's this

4:01

message coming from? Or is it just pervasive? I

4:03

heard a lot of it in my church community. I

4:05

heard a lot of dismissing about evolution.

4:08

I heard a lot of dismissing of climate change. I

4:10

heard a lot of dismissing of,

4:12

you know, radio carbon dating,

4:15

like all kinds of stuff that

4:17

I was simultaneously learning

4:20

about in my classes. She

4:22

was a zoology student. So it's interesting.

4:24

Right? By day, she was trying to

4:26

master the scientific method. By

4:29

night, she was surrounded by doubters.

4:31

She volunteered with college Republicans.

4:33

That's the party of Donald Trump, though it was

4:35

before he was on the scene. Sarah also

4:37

dated then married a conservative man,

4:40

and she was consuming conservative media.

4:42

So at that point in time, what was

4:44

available to me and what was on the radio

4:46

was Conservative Talk Radio. Including

4:49

the biggest name in Talk Radio, the

4:51

late Rush Limbaugh, the

4:53

awkward guest we met at the start of the

4:54

show. We we really live.

4:57

Folks, there are there are two worlds.

4:59

One universe is an entire lie.

5:02

Everything run dominated

5:04

and controlled by the left. Here

5:07

and around the world is a lie.

5:09

You didn't want to get him started on global

5:11

warming. Global warming, climate

5:14

change. How did loudly do I have

5:16

to shout it? Is a hoax?

5:26

You see what's happening to Sarah night, and

5:28

it'll be interesting to hear from Marco about

5:30

this in a moment. Her world is

5:32

full of climate denial. It's in

5:34

her car on the radio. It's in her church on

5:36

Sundays. It's across the table at home.

5:38

And it's there when she's out with friends or

5:40

volunteering. And at some point,

5:42

she said she came to believe the climate

5:44

change was a hope. A conspiracy

5:46

to somehow undermine

5:48

America. Do you know that the Fox News

5:50

channel is the

5:52

only television outlet to report

5:55

on climate gate. One of the

5:57

biggest things for me

5:59

was climate gate if

6:01

you remember that scandal at the

6:03

University of East Anglia.

6:05

Climategate was a scandal from two thousand

6:07

and nine. Someone hacked into a server

6:09

used by climate scientists at the University

6:11

of East Anglia and then leaked the

6:13

contents to conservative bloggers who

6:15

spun it as evidence that climate change

6:17

was fake. But then, Sarah

6:20

did something radical. She

6:23

changed the station. And

6:27

now more from NPR.

6:29

And I don't even exactly remember what was

6:31

said, but I remember the

6:33

way that the Newscasters

6:36

said it I don't believe that these

6:38

scientists are deliberately cooking the data,

6:40

but I do believe that if everything was

6:42

more transparent and it just

6:44

made so much sense in the moment

6:46

like it was so blatantly clear

6:49

that the whole climate gate scandal had been

6:51

completely misrepresented to

6:53

me on conservative talk radio,

6:55

primarily rush limbaugh. And I still

6:57

remember where I was on the road

6:59

that it all came crashing

7:02

down and I just said, I'm

7:04

being lied to and

7:06

it was an opportunity to kind of

7:08

bust out of that bubble and listen

7:10

to somebody else with a different

7:12

perspective. And that really

7:14

started me thinking, and I think that was the last

7:16

time that I ever listened to any conservative

7:19

radio.

7:19

It is a hoax. It

7:22

isn't real. It never was

7:24

real. You'll be back and

7:26

stay with us.

7:28

I mean, was that difficult in

7:30

your home or in your life?

7:32

Did you have to kind of come out? Yes.

7:35

It was hard. And

7:37

this is the part that, you know, I wanna

7:39

encourage everybody to have, like, a lot

7:41

of compassion for people who are coming

7:44

out of this, I don't know,

7:46

this frame of mind, this ideology

7:49

because it isn't easy. Like, it's

7:51

really hard to admit that you're wrong.

7:53

It's really hard to admit

7:55

that you are involved with people

7:58

and organization and you thought

8:00

that you were doing good and then

8:02

you see that it's not. It's

8:05

very painful. It's painful.

8:07

I felt and feel a lot of

8:10

shame about this point in,

8:12

you know, my life and my story

8:14

and it's embarrassing. But

8:17

just because something is painful and embarrassing

8:19

doesn't mean that we get a a pass

8:21

to not engage with the parts of ourselves

8:23

and the parts of our lives that are uncomfortable.

8:27

So, yeah, it was hard.

8:29

It was difficult. You know, I had

8:31

to have many conversations with my

8:33

husband. Did you lose

8:35

friends of it? Yes.

8:37

My entire social circle has

8:39

been blown up. Sarah

8:46

said it was at this moment that she rediscovered

8:48

her roots, her childhood

8:50

passion for nature. She became

8:52

an ambassador for the US National

8:54

Center for Science Education with a

8:56

specific mission to talk about climate

8:58

change in a part of the country where it's

9:00

socially controversial. How

9:03

powerful now is this urge

9:05

to talk about

9:07

climate change? Now that I've

9:09

started, it's like I cannot stop.

9:16

It took a lot of guts for me to start

9:18

talking about it because up

9:20

here where I live now in

9:22

North Georgia, I noticed

9:25

a staggering, astounding

9:28

silence around climate change

9:30

in my personal life. So I

9:32

just started talking about it and

9:34

pointing out weird little things that

9:36

shouldn't be

9:36

happening? Like what? So

9:39

there was one day and

9:41

I was dressed appropriately for the

9:43

winter, and it was like seventy one degrees

9:45

outside. It was completely

9:48

unseasonably warm. And

9:51

everyone around me is

9:53

so excited. Oh, the weather

9:55

is so nice. Oh, so

9:57

what a beautiful day and I'm outside

9:59

and I'm like, guys, this is not

10:01

normal. This is not what January should be like. And

10:04

this is really, really

10:06

terrifying. And

10:06

did people look at you and think, what are

10:09

you talking about? The sun is out.

10:11

I can go in short sleeves. No.

10:13

You know what? They said, you

10:15

know, You're right. I didn't even

10:17

think about it like that. And I was like, I

10:19

know. So

10:22

almost everybody that I talked

10:24

to about it was really supportive.

10:26

And that's the other reason why I can't

10:28

stop talking about climate change because at the time

10:30

before I started talking about

10:32

it, I felt pressure to

10:34

be quiet to not cause a

10:36

fuss, to not disturb, you

10:38

know, the peace. But

10:41

once I realized that probably

10:43

a lot of other people around me are

10:45

having these same ideas and these same

10:47

concerns, and they don't have

10:49

anybody to talk to either. And

10:51

that maybe if I'm brave and

10:53

courageous and take the first

10:55

step, maybe some people won't meet

10:57

me there. And they did by

10:59

almost ninety five

11:01

percent of the

11:01

time. What about the five percent? What

11:03

about them? I often get, like,

11:05

oh, we don't need to worry about it. We just need

11:07

to pray about it, and it'll be fine.

11:10

Or just downright

11:12

to the extra carbon dioxide

11:14

is gonna be good for the planet. It it

11:16

doesn't hurt anything. So I get a

11:18

lot of dismissal, I get some

11:20

denial, I get some what about is,

11:23

from people in that regard?

11:25

Marco Silva, you're a BBC climate

11:28

disinformation reporter, and you've been patiently

11:30

listening to that. What do you

11:32

make at Sara's story? I have to

11:34

say, I find it

11:36

in some ways inspiring because

11:38

as someone who covers this information, I'm quite

11:41

familiar with this journey

11:43

she describes here

11:45

from being someone

11:47

who believes in climate

11:49

denial to then

11:51

getting acquainted with the facts.

11:53

And it's often the case that people who

11:55

do that journey, that Sarah has made in the

11:57

opposite journey as well. So from

11:59

a fact based reality down

12:01

the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories,

12:04

This often, this journey

12:06

comes at a huge personal

12:08

cost for those friendships, those

12:10

relatives that perhaps no longer

12:12

want to to engage with

12:13

us. So listening to

12:15

her, I can't

12:17

avoid but feeling a huge

12:19

amount of sympathy and effect for

12:21

Sarah. Yeah, it is inspiring as you

12:23

say. Sarah said that five percent of the people

12:25

she encounters are determined not

12:28

to accept the

12:28

science. What do we know about the actual numbers

12:31

of people like this around the world?

12:33

So it's quite interesting because quite a

12:35

lot of search has been done has been

12:37

done all around the globe to try and

12:39

figure out how many climate

12:41

deniers are among us

12:43

in specific countries, in specific

12:45

continents. Thinking about the US

12:47

specifically, the Yale program

12:49

on climate change communication has recently

12:52

done a survey and they identified

12:54

what they called different audiences

12:57

within the American public. And one of those

12:59

groups, they called it the

13:01

dismissive. So those are essentially

13:03

people that believe global warming isn't

13:05

happening, that it's not

13:07

man made, that it's not a

13:09

threat, and can sometimes endorse

13:11

conspiracy theories. I think

13:13

it's fair to call these full blown climate

13:15

denier. And they estimated

13:17

that this particular audience,

13:19

the dismissive audience, represented

13:21

about nine percent of

13:23

the American public. And this is

13:25

especially staggering if you take

13:27

into account how overwhelming the

13:29

consensus is within the

13:31

scientific community about the basic

13:33

facts of climate change. Right.

13:35

There are Studies, one study in

13:37

particular suggests ninety nine

13:39

percent of scientific studies agree

13:42

humans are causing climate change.

13:44

It's real. But like denier

13:46

is not an American only thing.

13:48

No, absolutely not. Recent survey by

13:50

the climate action against this information

13:52

group has looked at how

13:54

this information is affecting the way we

13:56

perceive climate change. They looked at

13:58

Australia, Brazil, India,

14:00

Germany, the UK, And there,

14:02

they found that between six

14:04

to twenty three percent of the people in these

14:06

countries do not believe

14:08

in climate change or at least are

14:10

uncertain about where the climate

14:12

change is happening. So it's important to

14:14

say here, they aren't specifically

14:16

looking at climate denier.

14:18

They are looking just at how informed

14:21

the public is about it. But

14:23

still, the bottom line, when you

14:25

look at this study, what you

14:27

glimpse there is a very

14:29

still pervasive lack of

14:31

reliable information that

14:33

people trust here on climate

14:34

change. We're ultimately looking for

14:37

tips on how to engage with

14:39

people who hold these beliefs. And

14:41

I wonder because you look at this Every

14:43

day does the manner of denial vary

14:46

from place to

14:46

place? I think it's fair to say

14:48

that in different parts of

14:50

the globe, Each one of these

14:52

beliefs can take a

14:54

shape of its own depending on the

14:56

local culture or the local politics.

14:58

And I'll give you some examples.

15:00

In Africa, for instance,

15:02

my colleagues at BBC Africa looked at

15:04

how our audiences have

15:06

responded to some of our coverage on on

15:08

climate change. And one particular

15:11

theme that emerged in those comments

15:13

in their response to our coverage had

15:15

to do with this idea

15:18

that the west

15:20

is imposing this agenda

15:22

of climate action as part

15:24

of some

15:25

sinister plan to

15:27

hold the continent back. So

15:29

yeah, it's it's absolutely not unusual that

15:31

these beliefs gain a life and interpretation of their

15:33

own in different parts of the globe. Okay, that's

15:35

really interesting. We've been talking to the BBC's

15:37

Michael Kalokey. He's based in the Kenyan

15:39

capital in Nairobi, but it's from a village

15:41

outside of there. he was telling me about

15:43

the experience of climate change and

15:45

climate denial that he's seen.

15:47

In Caldorline, really, we've had a

15:49

difficult time. The

15:51

river has dried

15:52

up. The crops

15:54

basically have weathered. The

15:56

animals have really thinned out. So

15:58

it's been very because they are for

16:00

myself, my family, that's my

16:02

parents, and also my neighbors as

16:04

well. I had the opportunity also

16:06

to travel to the coast of

16:08

Kenya. And it's, you know, this is really

16:10

interesting because it's

16:12

juxtaposition of, I

16:14

would

16:14

say, really difficult sort of realities because

16:16

on one hand you have the beach

16:18

and you have the ocean and you

16:20

have this beautiful press teen area

16:22

and then you walk a few meters

16:25

and it's dry and desolate

16:27

and people are suffering and there's

16:29

no water. I mean, this

16:31

part of Africa is in the grips of a

16:33

horrific drought. Some places haven't seen

16:35

rain in almost five

16:37

years. It's affecting tens of millions

16:39

of people. Aid agencies say some are

16:41

facing starvation. Given

16:43

that context, Michael has

16:45

had some pretty interesting conversations

16:47

Hi.

16:52

What's your

16:52

name? My name is

16:54

Sharon. Sharon,

16:55

what are your thoughts on climate change?

16:57

I think up to this

16:59

point, I was thinking if it's real or

17:02

not. Why are

17:02

you fifty fifty

17:05

on that? I

17:05

can't really say why, but at

17:08

this point, I can say it's real.

17:10

But

17:10

you were doubting before. Yeah.

17:11

I'm just I'm just remembered how

17:14

kittambo, I mean

17:14

Long ago. Yeah, long ago when when

17:17

used to plan for the planting

17:19

season or when you know that this month is

17:21

going to be beans, they would actually

17:23

be beans. But right now,

17:25

it's unpredictable. You can't really

17:27

know when the rains are coming, when

17:29

they are not coming. So it's even hard for

17:31

farmers to even plan for,

17:33

you know, planting and sun like things. So I think yeah.

17:35

My name is Beth.

17:37

What are your thoughts on

17:38

climate change? It's

17:39

deteriorating. So do you think it's

17:41

real? Yes. It is real.

17:43

Because at times the hits in this nairobi is

17:45

not normal, you know. And that

17:47

has been what about because

17:50

Is it deforestation or forestation or something like that?

17:52

So I can't remember what it shows, but the

17:54

cutting down of trees are not planting again.

17:58

That in the long run affects how

18:01

climate is changing. My name

18:03

is Dan.

18:03

Dan, I'm good too. I'm

18:06

a visual director. I do

18:08

film production. For starters,

18:10

I don't believe climate change

18:12

exists. Why is because from

18:14

when I was like a little kid

18:16

or when I was

18:17

born, it's the same same thing. Yeah? What

18:19

do you mean by that? To

18:21

the climate is all around weather and all

18:23

those things here. So you see from one

18:25

hour smaller, it's the same same

18:28

seasons the same same

18:30

rainy days, the same same sunshine.

18:32

Maybe if you move to

18:34

certain different areas, and

18:37

travel maybe to coastal regions where

18:39

the altitude is different and all

18:40

that, then there's a bit of change. But

18:43

that stays there. When you come back

18:45

home, it's still the same same thing. But what do you

18:47

think then is causing these doubts

18:49

that we keep on experiencing in, you

18:50

know, in our country here? I have not

18:53

experienced

18:53

that doubts. I wouldn't

18:56

You

18:56

live in Kenya. Yeah. I live

18:58

in Kenya. You have an

18:59

experience I I see I see droughts

19:01

in the news. But you see, this

19:03

is like like the way I say it, if

19:05

I move to

19:06

Lorddoer, then I'll experience that drought, which

19:08

is a town in northern -- Yeah.

19:10

-- northern Kenya.

19:11

So that is how the climate

19:14

for that region is. It is another

19:16

season that it comes and then it

19:18

goes. Wow.

19:20

So when you were talking to

19:22

somebody like that who says there's

19:24

no drought in the midst of

19:27

this horrific scene

19:29

that you've painted for

19:30

us. How do you engage with that

19:33

person? Try and just get

19:35

them to see

19:38

and witness what people around

19:40

them are going through. And this is what I talk

19:42

to them about. You're just

19:44

pointing out to someone saying, you know what? Look

19:46

at Mount Kenya there. You see that ice and

19:48

snow cup on the top, you see

19:50

how small it's become from

19:52

when we were kids, and

19:54

then trying to get them to understand the

19:56

relationship between a

19:58

physical aspect that they can relate

20:00

to in their lives and climate change.

20:02

And that's for me is something that I think has

20:04

worked rather than talking to

20:06

people about scientific

20:08

terminologies that that really

20:10

many do not

20:11

understand. Okay, Marco, this

20:13

is your cue. You've been looking at the best ways

20:15

to engage climate deniers. What have

20:17

you found?

20:18

Yes, I have. And I think at this

20:20

stage, it's quite important to make

20:22

here a very clear distinction between

20:25

being wrong, ill informed about

20:27

climate change and being a full

20:29

blown climate denier. A

20:32

lot of people may not be very well

20:34

versed with the science, the facts of

20:36

climate change. To be honest, they can at

20:39

times be quite complex, quite

20:41

dense. Some people may have

20:43

genuine questions about the

20:45

subject. So with information,

20:47

with facts, those people

20:50

can be convinced. Climate

20:52

deniers, though, people who reject

20:54

the basic facts of

20:56

climate change are likely to be

20:58

more difficult to persuade, which is

21:01

why a number of researchers

21:03

and academics have looked into

21:06

exactly this topic before.

21:08

Professor Sandefendelini, Professor

21:10

of Social Psychology at the

21:12

University of Cambridge is one

21:14

of them he's been looking into this long and hard.

21:16

And when I spoke to him,

21:18

he gave me a couple of

21:20

tips. For instance, don't

21:23

challenge a climate denier

21:25

directly. Don't confront them.

21:27

Telling them that they're

21:29

this or that throwing insults

21:31

at them that their beliefs are

21:33

wrong, that sort of attitude

21:35

or strategy is only

21:37

likely to backfire. If you

21:39

do that, the chances are people are just going

21:41

to hold on to their views even more firmly.

21:43

Okay Marco, those are the donuts. What

21:45

are the dos? So

21:48

what to do instead? Be diplomatic,

21:50

ask questions, help

21:53

people, deconstruct eyes

21:55

question their own beliefs very

21:58

slowly. Meet people in their

22:00

turf. Find your common ground. I

22:02

once interviewed an American teenager

22:04

who managed to persuade his

22:07

dad clear climate denier

22:09

simply by appealing to

22:11

his faith. The father who was

22:13

a very strong believer

22:15

in the Christian faith who heard from

22:17

his son that perhaps the the thing that God would

22:19

want you to do would be to preserve the

22:22

environment to stop

22:24

climate

22:24

change. And so by finding

22:26

that common ground he managed to persuade his

22:28

dad. Yeah. That is really good

22:31

advice and good to keep in mind, especially when

22:33

you're dealing with family members, at least you

22:35

might have time with them. You

22:37

know, I was also talking to Sarah

22:39

about this, about, you know, tips she might have because,

22:41

of course, she's an ambassador for

22:43

this issue. So

22:45

I would say the first thing you have to do is

22:47

you need to be in relationship with

22:49

that person. Like, you need to be someone

22:51

that they trust you need to be

22:54

trustworthy. You

22:56

want to foster a sense of wonder.

22:58

You want to foster a sense of curiosity,

23:00

like it's a mystery that you

23:02

can solve together. And even

23:04

if you're different people and you

23:07

have different say ideas

23:09

about

23:09

politics, there are shared values in

23:12

which you can

23:13

connect. Now, if you

23:15

don't know the person and therefore what their values

23:17

are, you may need to have other

23:19

tools ready. One of the things that

23:21

I really recommend is having

23:23

a climate store A PERSONAL CLIMATE

23:26

STORY JUST AT THE

23:26

READY. Reporter: FOR INSTANCE THAT FREECISH

23:29

WARM WINTER WEATHER SHE TOLD US ABOUT

23:31

EARLIER OR that her grandfather was

23:33

a coal miner to demonstrate that she's

23:35

not against fossil fuel workers and to

23:37

recognize that they need to be taken care of

23:39

as we transition to renewables. And

23:41

so on. So I have these stories at the ready, but

23:43

when you're telling a personal story, it

23:45

kind of bypasses that part of your

23:47

brain that will respond to

23:50

threats. AND PERSONAL STORIES CAN GO

23:52

A LONG WAY.

23:52

SO THERE'S A LOT YOU CAN DO TO ENGAGE WITH

23:55

CLIMATE AND IARS, BUT SARA SAYS

23:57

THERE ARE LIMITS. You

23:59

may not be the person to talk about climate

24:01

change to every person. There are people in

24:03

my own family who I don't talk

24:05

about it with because I I

24:07

can't engage with them. Honestly,

24:09

there have been people I've had to block from

24:11

my own family who will not stop

24:14

harassing me. About climate change and climate

24:16

denier, and that's painful.

24:18

But having my support system

24:21

makes me able to

24:24

withstand that. That just means the

24:26

world to me because it means that I'm

24:28

able to engage

24:30

with people. And then sometimes,

24:32

you have to walk away. So it's okay.

24:35

It's okay. Marco,

24:36

what are you what are you making that? Well, I think

24:38

it's a very valid point the one she makes

24:41

you can't necessarily persuade everyone.

24:43

Not everyone agrees you

24:45

ought to try and win calamity nighs

24:47

over by using your powers

24:50

of persuasion people, academics,

24:52

climate researchers do feel it's

24:54

so important to tackle climate change

24:57

right now that there's just really no

24:59

point in wasting a lot of

25:01

time trying to change, say,

25:03

Adenaiah's mind. Their

25:05

view is that your far better off trying

25:07

to prompt those who are sitting on the fence

25:09

into

25:09

action. Right. So that gives you perhaps

25:11

a target to go after at that

25:14

little party we were imagining at the beginning of the

25:15

show. Exactly. But again, that's just a

25:18

view. Mhmm. And there are certainly those who

25:20

say that, you know, if we were to have a shot

25:22

at tackling climate

25:23

change, we're going to need everyone. Yeah.

25:25

I mean, that's my impression. And I suppose

25:27

what I'm taking away particularly

25:29

from Sarah's story is that, like,

25:32

key is compassion. That's

25:34

her story. Right? I mean, there's compassion

25:36

for the people you're talking to that they may be

25:38

coming from a world or a set of

25:40

circumstances that you might not know very much

25:42

about and that they

25:44

themselves may not have had very much

25:46

control over and that

25:48

we shouldn't demonize people for the situations they

25:50

find themselves in. And also I suppose

25:52

to have some compassion for

25:54

ourselves. Right? It's not up to each

25:56

of us to change people's

25:58

minds. You know, some people have different views and

26:00

that's life. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my

26:02

my experience tells me that you can

26:05

never really anticipate

26:08

what drove people into believing

26:10

in some of these false

26:12

hurts. So yeah, absolutely. When

26:14

you approach People who espouse these

26:16

beliefs do so in a compassionate

26:18

manner. There's no point in the insulting. There's

26:20

no point in aggravating people. Build

26:23

communication, and

26:23

yeah, show some empathy towards them.

26:26

Right. Cheers to

26:26

that, Marco. Thank you very much.

26:29

Thank you.

26:29

Cheers also to

26:31

this week's team producer Nora

26:33

Morrison researcher Richard Tisdale

26:36

production coordinator Nator, Siobhan Reid,

26:38

series producer, Alex Lewis,

26:40

editor, Rigid Carney

26:42

and our sound engineer, Grand

26:44

Putty Fund.

26:46

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