0:05

Hi and welcome back to the Marketing

0:07

Lawcast . I'm your host , jennifer Goddard

0:09

, with my guest today , troy

0:12

Werner of the Werner Law firm . Welcome

0:14

, troy . Thanks , jennifer , it's

0:16

so great to see you and see you in

0:18

your new Texas

0:20

office . Yes , how

0:23

long have you been open there in Texas ?

0:26

So we've been open for about

0:28

a year . We're in Frisco , Texas

0:30

, so we're about a half hour

0:32

north of Dallas .

0:34

Awesome . Well , just to give our

0:36

listeners a little bit of background about who

0:39

you are and your law

0:41

firm , why don't you tell

0:43

us a little bit about your practice

0:45

? And I know you took over your dad's law firm

0:47

, so just kind of give us a little bit of history

0:49

to bring everybody up to speed .

0:52

Before we dive into today's episode , a special

0:54

shout out to our sponsor , quidproquo

0:56

. Are you a law firm looking to scale or

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1:00

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1:07

Sure , sure . So I'm from

1:09

Santa Fe , california . My

1:11

father started our firm there in 1975

1:15

. It's about 45

1:17

minutes north of Los Angeles , a

1:19

nice suburb there . He

1:22

started it as a general practice . It

1:24

was a small town at the time so

1:26

he did a little bit of everything . There

1:30

was a hitching post outside of the office

1:32

when he started , so he would

1:34

have a bunch of random clients

1:36

. Some of them would hire

1:38

him through just bartering , offering

1:41

him random stuff . But it

1:43

was much different for him

1:45

than when I started back and

1:47

joined the firm in 2009 . So

1:50

it had been a general practice all that

1:52

time . When

1:54

I passed the bar and got sworn

1:57

in , I was thrown into court

1:59

the next day doing criminal

2:02

defense , family law , civil litigation

2:05

, evictions all of that . But

2:09

over the

2:11

course of my career I realized I really

2:13

loved estate planning . I was more suited

2:16

towards my talents , what I enjoyed doing

2:19

talking to clients . So since

2:21

then I've really shifted

2:23

the practice to estate planning

2:25

and probate . My dad

2:27

retired in 2013,

2:30

. So I've been running the firm the last 10

2:33

years , so I've been blessed to be able to

2:35

really guide it into those

2:37

areas that I like .

2:39

So one of my first questions , troy , is

2:41

I know some of our listeners are

2:44

kind of in the position where your dad

2:46

was . They've got a law firm and they're

2:48

hoping that their son or daughter will

2:51

come into that law firm . But then

2:53

sometimes that sort of backfires

2:55

and the child says , oh , I'm never going to be

2:57

a lawyer . So what was it that kind

2:59

of drew you into that ?

3:02

Yeah , I

3:04

got this question a lot . I really can't

3:06

pinpoint it . I

3:09

wish I knew exactly everything

3:11

my dad did , because my wife

3:13

and I have a four-year-old son that I'm

3:15

hoping might take over our firm someday

3:18

but he really

3:20

didn't push me into

3:22

it or pressure to do

3:24

it . He let me know that it was available

3:27

, that he was

3:29

going to retire at

3:31

some point soon and that if

3:33

I was interested in taking

3:35

it over , that it was available to me . I

3:39

had a great childhood . We

3:42

were really lucky to have

3:44

just the success that he

3:46

had and I benefited from it and

3:49

I wanted to be

3:51

successful like him and provide that to

3:53

my family . So as I was

3:55

going through undergrad and all

3:57

undergrads they just really don't know

3:59

what they're going to do with the rest of their lives it

4:02

seemed like a really good opportunity to

4:05

take it over and also

4:08

he was going to retire soon

4:10

. So it was going to be a missed opportunity

4:12

if I didn't actually

4:14

take advantage of it at that time

4:16

.

4:17

So as you were growing up , did you work in the law

4:19

office at all ?

4:23

I worked there briefly in high school

4:25

just with random file clerk

4:28

stuff . I was

4:30

a cross-country and track runner and our

4:32

route would run past my

4:35

dad's office . My

4:37

siblings and I I have a brother and sister we

4:39

were always in the office . I

4:42

remember , probably

4:44

when I was six , sitting on

4:46

the couch in my dad's office watching him

4:49

work . So it was very

4:51

cool ultimately , and years

4:53

and years later , to be in that

4:55

office , that being my office and the same

4:57

couch being there . So

5:01

, yeah , it was a good experience

5:03

.

5:04

That's a very it's a very cool and very

5:06

inspiring story . I'm sure your

5:08

dad's really super proud of you

5:10

and what you've accomplished . Speaking

5:12

of which , we talked a

5:15

little bit about how your firm

5:17

has grown just over the past

5:19

few years . Can you tell us a little bit

5:21

about how many people

5:24

you have and the area

5:26

that you serve and how your firm has grown

5:28

so well ? I mean , you're really a business

5:30

person as well as a lawyer .

5:32

Yes , yes , that's

5:34

really what I've focused

5:36

on the business part of it for the past

5:39

seven , eight years . The

5:42

first

5:44

five , six years

5:46

of my career really felt like I was just learning

5:49

how to practice law . I was just in the business

5:51

, I was helping clients , which was great

5:53

, but looking at the business

5:55

ends of things , we were just sort of

5:58

starting . We were studying

6:00

. We had six or

6:02

seven employees . Since

6:07

then there's a couple of books that

6:09

I read that really helped me the

6:11

E-Mith , revisited , I read a

6:14

while ago . Traction

6:16

I recently read . It

6:19

really helped me

6:21

learn and focus a lot more on

6:23

the business and setting goals and setting

6:25

up policies and procedures to

6:28

make things flow more smoothly

6:30

and to be able to focus on marketing and

6:32

what our goals were

6:35

and really all of that Just

6:38

a bunch of little things over

6:41

the years has helped us grow to

6:43

where we are right now . We've

6:46

over doubled our revenue

6:48

in the past

6:51

five years or so . We have

6:53

a staff of about 15 . We

6:56

serve Santa Fe

6:58

, our main office , which is about 45

7:01

minutes north of LA . We have

7:03

satellite offices throughout the area , so we

7:05

serve all of LA . That's

7:07

been a big part of it too , but we've

7:10

really set up a great

7:12

business that I'm

7:14

proud of . I'm excited about continuing

7:16

to grow .

7:18

Yeah , that's so important because one

7:20

of the things that is unique about

7:22

your law firm is you really

7:25

focus and enjoy

7:27

having that probate client . It

7:29

sounds to me like one of

7:32

the keys to the success . There are

7:35

all those systems that you've put in place

7:38

. Tell me a little bit about

7:40

that because , like I said earlier , a lot of our clients

7:42

don't want to do probate . That

7:45

caught my eye , that that's a

7:47

focus for you .

7:49

Yes , I can understand

7:51

why they don't want to do probate . I've

7:54

felt the same way in the past . Probate

7:58

in California especially it's a

8:00

monster . It

8:02

can take over a year to complete

8:04

. There's 500

8:06

plus steps to go through

8:09

. There's a lot

8:11

that can happen over the course of

8:13

a year and you're

8:15

not always in control of everything . Clients

8:17

can go sideways , clients

8:20

can disappear . It's

8:22

hard to keep those files on track

8:24

, whereas the state planning most

8:27

of the time you're done with those files

8:29

in a month . Clients are motivated

8:31

, they're happy to get this stuff done

8:33

. You have happy

8:36

clients and you're done with it . But

8:39

that's really why

8:42

I've started to focus a lot on

8:44

probate as well , because there are not

8:46

a lot of good

8:49

probate firms in the Los Angeles

8:51

area . A lot of firms

8:53

do it on the side because

8:56

it's related to a state

8:58

planning and they feel like they need to

9:00

provide that service , but they don't love it

9:02

. They don't have the system

9:04

set up . Attorneys

9:08

in general , to be honest

9:10

, they do not have the best customer

9:12

service . We don't have the best

9:15

rapport and

9:17

reputation for providing

9:19

customer service to clients

9:21

. I really want to change

9:23

that . Probate

9:26

and the clients that we're dealing with

9:28

. They've just typically

9:30

lost a loved one . They're

9:32

dealing with that grief and they're

9:35

suddenly realizing that

9:37

they cannot access mom or

9:39

dad's bank account to pay

9:41

the mortgage . They're

9:43

talking to a realtor and they're realizing that

9:45

they cannot sell the home without going

9:48

through probate . They're already

9:50

not in a good mental

9:52

state to deal with a complicated

9:54

legal issue . Now they're

9:56

stuck having to go through what I think is

9:58

a really intimidating thing of finding

10:01

a lawyer , hiring a lawyer , going through this process

10:04

. Our goal is really

10:06

to make things simple and

10:08

straightforward for our clients . We

10:12

want them to feel like they're

10:14

understanding the

10:16

next steps all throughout the process

10:18

. I want them , when

10:20

they hear horror stories of people going

10:23

through probate , I want them to think , hey , I

10:25

didn't really have that experience . Yeah

10:27

, it wasn't ideal to have

10:30

to wait , but it

10:32

was just a process , so

10:35

there's just not a lot of

10:37

firms providing that We've set up

10:39

systems to really start to finish

10:41

. We have staff helping

10:44

them throughout the whole case . So

10:46

I'm really happy with how we've set

10:48

that up . We've

10:51

really done a good job setting

10:53

up our factory in that .

10:56

There's a challenge on two fronts

10:58

, it sounds like to me . The

11:00

first one is getting your systems in place so

11:02

that everything runs smoothly and you don't

11:04

miss deadlines and you get all those 500

11:06

steps done . But

11:08

the other is you kind of hinted at this the

11:12

hiring . You've got staff

11:14

that are dealing with folks who are not

11:16

in the best place emotionally

11:18

. How have you approached that

11:20

hiring challenge ?

11:23

Yeah , I love traction

11:26

the book traction

11:28

because it talks a lot about

11:31

having the right people in the right roles

11:33

and really setting the

11:36

core values for your firm . I

11:38

think about office space and you see the work

11:41

posters on the wall like honesty

11:43

and integrity all that stuff that

11:45

is somewhat meaningless , but

11:49

when we hire now , we

11:51

are really looking for people

11:53

that number one are

11:55

empathetic and want to help people

11:57

. They have a desire to help people

12:00

. I've been really blessed to

12:02

be able to find great people to

12:05

add to our firm and add to our team

12:07

over the years , and I think that

12:09

that's really the common theme is

12:11

that they have

12:13

that drive to help people

12:16

and

12:18

that resonates with

12:20

our clients . I

12:23

think , just generally , as lawyers

12:25

, we're blessed to be able to

12:27

be in a career that

12:29

we get to help people directly every

12:32

day A

12:34

state planning attorney specifically . We're not

12:36

dealing with clients who are giant

12:38

companies and these are

12:40

clients people that may need an

12:43

attorney once or twice in their lives . It's

12:45

a scary thing , so we

12:47

get to help them through a very , very

12:49

scary and intimidating process

12:52

. So to have staff that

12:54

have that same mindset has

12:56

been really valuable .

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and set up a clarity call to

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get started today . Now

14:03

, when you are interviewing people , do

14:05

you use

14:07

any kind of assessments , or do you just kind

14:09

of get the feeling from those folks that

14:11

they're going to be a good fit , or what's your

14:14

process ?

14:15

We should start using personality tests

14:17

. I've seen some of my colleagues

14:19

use them and they say great things about

14:22

them . We have

14:24

a really structured

14:28

application process . We

14:31

have applicants do a written interview with

14:34

a lot of questions geared towards sort

14:36

of getting those insights

14:38

into their character . We'll

14:42

conduct Zoom or in-person interviews

14:45

with both myself and a couple

14:47

of my staff members , so

14:49

we try to get a sense for that stuff

14:51

through that . There's

14:54

only so much you can do at the end of the day . Having

14:57

those specific traits

14:59

in mind really helps us

15:02

eliminate candidates

15:04

that may otherwise seem good but may

15:06

not be the best for that position

15:08

.

15:09

Right , exactly , and having all of that working

15:11

from your systems and processes to

15:14

supporting the client

15:16

, with someone who does listen

15:19

and is empathetic , that's really the

15:21

key for the profitability in

15:23

that probate area .

15:25

Yes , yes . We've

15:27

seen so many more five-star

15:29

reviews since we've been

15:32

improving these processes and

15:34

procedures and really focusing our staff

15:36

on okay , this is our goal , this

15:38

is what your role is . This is what

15:40

you're there to help the client with , so

15:43

clients overall are happier

15:46

. It's getting us a lot more five-star

15:48

reviews . That's getting us more clients

15:50

, so it's great to see this all snowball

15:53

into really

15:55

the success of the firms today .

15:58

And so we talked at the very beginning

16:00

that you're sitting in your Texas office

16:02

. Tell us a little bit about this move to

16:04

Texas and what your plans are there .

16:07

Yeah , yeah . So I

16:09

grew up in California , lived there my whole life

16:11

. It's really different

16:14

when you have a kid

16:16

. My wife and I have a

16:18

four-year-old son I mentioned , and

16:20

we're at the point a couple of years

16:23

ago where we had to

16:25

decide okay , do we want to raise him

16:27

here in our hometown in

16:29

California , or where

16:31

do we think the best place to raise him would

16:34

be ? We

16:36

moved to Texas last

16:39

year , mid-last year . We

16:42

love it so far . It's great

16:44

. With estate

16:46

planning . It's a good opportunity , I

16:48

think , to spread

16:51

into a different market as well . So

16:54

and that was really the driving force

16:56

behind it is really

16:58

deciding where we

17:00

want to spend our time as a family

17:02

and also to

17:04

be able to take advantage of the

17:07

business opportunity .

17:08

As I love that that is a family-driven decision

17:11

and because of the freedom that

17:13

you have being a lawyer and having your

17:15

own firm , you could choose that's

17:18

really a huge blessing

17:20

.

17:21

Yes , and one of the things , I

17:24

wouldn't have thought that this was possible a

17:27

few years ago , before

17:29

COVID , and we were

17:31

sort of cloud-based but

17:33

a lot of it was still based

17:36

in office , but COVID

17:38

, we were not in the office for eight

17:41

months , so we

17:43

were able to see that virtual

17:46

could work , that this could work . So

17:49

, yeah , we were able to take

17:52

what we learned from that and

17:54

I'll apply . I have two staff

17:56

members here with me in our Texas

17:59

office . We have

18:01

half of our staff in California . We

18:03

have some staff members that are full

18:05

virtual , so

18:07

it's been an interesting thing to

18:09

basically make

18:12

that work and productive . It's

18:14

different , but through Zoom

18:16

meetings and visiting the offices

18:18

, it's really worked out great .

18:20

It's a real hybrid model , and

18:23

that seems to be what's working best

18:25

is not fully one or

18:27

the other , but that hybrid . So you still

18:29

have some personal interaction

18:32

. You saw that personal touch

18:34

, but you're able to access

18:36

so many more resources . Yeah

18:39

, yeah . So

18:42

there's an aspect of

18:44

this that I think a lot of people will be interested

18:46

to learn . Since you've grown so and

18:48

you're expanding , what

18:50

are you doing for your marketing ? What

18:53

are some of your secrets for

18:55

success on the marketing front ?

19:00

So I joined I hired you

19:02

all Entity Marketing Solutions

19:04

just about a year ago . I've

19:07

loved the marketing

19:10

part of the law of

19:12

running the business since I started

19:14

in the beginning and I've always

19:16

been focused on organic

19:18

Google search results , on

19:20

SEO , on being

19:23

top three search

19:25

results when selling looks for Santa

19:28

Frida probate lawyer . So that's

19:30

really what my focus has been

19:32

since the beginning of

19:35

my career and

19:38

I was with another marketing firm

19:40

for a long

19:42

time for five , six years before I

19:45

shifted to you . But you

19:47

all just make it easy . The

19:51

big thing is just the amount of content

19:53

good content that we're able to

19:55

put on our site with

19:58

SEO and terms

20:01

built into that . I

20:04

didn't see that offered anywhere else

20:06

. I was really

20:08

happy with our website before

20:10

we shifted over . I thought , going

20:13

into hiring and joining you all , that

20:15

I was really just doing it for the blog

20:18

content . But

20:20

you all did a great job with

20:22

revamping our site . I love

20:25

it . I didn't even know we needed

20:27

to revamp it , but it looks so much better

20:29

. The

20:31

content is great . We

20:34

can see the results already for

20:37

the Los Angeles area . So

20:41

that's really what we've been focused on

20:43

setting up those systems

20:45

to make it as automated

20:48

as possible ever right A system

20:50

helping to just

20:52

make sure things are running smoothly . But

20:56

also Google reviews . We

20:59

are very much focused

21:02

on Google reviews and

21:05

getting those from our clients , having

21:08

a good system to request those , figuring

21:11

out the most effective ways to get those

21:13

, and that makes a

21:15

big difference .

21:17

Oh , absolutely . I know that we are

21:19

constantly working with our clients

21:21

to help get more Google reviews

21:23

, and sometimes attorneys

21:25

can be a little bit nervous

21:28

about trying to get those reviews

21:30

because they're afraid they're gonna get a bad review . Have you ever

21:32

had a bad review ?

21:34

Yes , of course . I

21:37

mean we've been

21:39

around for a long time . I'm

21:42

lucky in that our

21:44

five-star reviews just dwarf

21:47

any made reviews . But

21:50

there's always going to be people

21:52

that you cannot please

21:55

. A lot of them are from people

21:57

that aren't even our clients and

21:59

we just have a handful of bad

22:02

reviews . But it might be a

22:04

beneficiary in a probate case

22:07

that we have no connection with at all

22:09

, but they just feel that the

22:11

probate process takes too long . So

22:13

it's just random stuff like that , but

22:16

you just respond to them with grace

22:18

. I think that if

22:20

you're responding to them and like

22:22

when I'm looking at a business and looking

22:24

at their reviews , I can sort of tell

22:26

, okay , this is the ones to review , but it

22:29

wasn't really a legitimate reason

22:32

to leave that , and then the business

22:34

owner responded promptly

22:36

and gracefully

22:38

. So I think that could

22:40

sometimes get a

22:43

client when you have a 4.9

22:45

instead of a 5 . And they can see

22:48

that , okay , then this is sort

22:50

of a real company psychologically .

22:52

They have some bad stuff

22:54

and you're not wrong . You know , actually

22:56

, studies support that that

22:59

4.7 , 4.9

23:01

is much more believable to

23:03

people when they're looking at those reviews , and

23:05

I always tell people exactly what you

23:07

just said . How do you respond to

23:10

this fear of getting a bad review ? Be

23:12

proactive about getting lots of good reviews . Yeah

23:15

, that's the main thing right there . And

23:18

, of course , when you're given stellar customer

23:20

service , like you guys are , you're going to get those great

23:23

five star reviews .

23:25

Yeah , I read something to and

23:28

there are a lot of clients

23:30

where we're not sure whether

23:33

they'll leave a five star review or not . So

23:36

we used to and you

23:38

have an inclination to want to ask the

23:40

A plus clients , the

23:42

ones you know will leave a five star review

23:45

. You ask them and then there's

23:47

a lot of clients in that middle ground where you're

23:49

not really sure . You think and

23:52

you did a good job for them

23:54

, but they weren't

23:56

really vocal about it . But

23:59

giving them an opportunity to either leave

24:02

a review or leave feedback , and

24:04

having the opportunity for them

24:06

to leave feedback , sibli

24:09

could avoid

24:11

a potential one star review if

24:13

they feel that they have that outlet

24:15

to actually leave a response

24:17

and they get that out of the system instead

24:20

of to you privately , instead

24:23

of leaving it publicly on

24:25

Google . So and there's

24:27

a benefit to sending

24:29

them out anyways- Absolutely

24:32

so .

24:33

what's next for you and the Werner law

24:35

firm ?

24:37

So we're really

24:39

just building on what

24:41

we have worked

24:43

on over the past couple of years . We've

24:47

I feel like we've set up our

24:49

factory very well for probate

24:51

. We've set up our marketing on

24:53

a great trajectory . We're

24:55

getting five star reviews in . So

24:58

we're basically setting goals for

25:01

2024 on

25:03

marketing to be able to get

25:05

enough leads , to get enough probate

25:08

and the safe planning cases to

25:10

be able to have

25:13

our staff handle those cases

25:15

. So we've set up all these I

25:19

call them rocks all

25:22

these specific benchmarks

25:24

for all of our different

25:26

parts of our firm to hit , and

25:29

the goal is to figure

25:32

out what's working , whether we're hitting those or

25:34

, if we're not hitting those , what we need

25:36

to do to to make that happen

25:38

.

25:39

Will there be more states where

25:41

you expand to beyond Texas ?

25:45

I don't think so . I think we're good

25:47

. I've

25:50

had the opportunity to

25:52

do that , but I think I've been off

25:54

on my plate .

25:57

So one more thing , troy . If

25:59

there's some attorneys

26:01

listening who are striving

26:03

, you know they're not to that level where

26:05

you are right now and they're thinking how do I

26:08

get from where I am ? Maybe

26:10

I'm a solo practitioner with like one person

26:12

working in my office . How

26:14

do I move forward ? What would be some of your

26:16

best pieces of advice for them

26:18

?

26:20

Sure , I mean back 2016

26:23

, 2017, . I was frustrated

26:25

as a law firm owner . I felt like

26:27

I was basically working for

26:29

my staff , that I was

26:31

working long hours and

26:34

I wasn't

26:36

honestly getting paid enough to deal with

26:38

all of that stuff . So I

26:40

really shifted my mindset

26:42

slowly to figuring

26:44

out how to run it more effectively

26:46

as a business , and

26:49

there's a lot of content out there . I

26:51

mentioned traction . I mentioned that you have revisited

26:54

, but it's a lot of baby steps

26:56

you can take when you have the time to

26:59

slowly build up your law firm . You

27:02

all use lawmatics . I think

27:04

that that's great . So you're doing a CRM

27:07

program to track leads , having

27:09

practice management program just

27:12

to be able to track

27:14

the status of your cases . That gives you

27:16

peace of mind . But

27:21

all of these are tools to really help build the policies and procedures of your law

27:23

firm to keep it on course

27:25

. So you're

27:27

just slowly working on the

27:30

parts of your law firm that you

27:32

know are thriving

27:34

and you're putting stuff in place

27:36

to make them more effective

27:39

. And then you just move on to the next

27:41

and the next and the next and you slowly build

27:43

it up and suddenly you

27:47

have a much different law firm and

27:49

things are going a lot smoother

27:52

.

27:53

Well , I think that attitude

27:56

of running it like it's a business

27:59

and realizing that there's more to a

28:03

successful law firm than just being

28:05

a great lawyer . I

28:07

know a lot of lawyers

28:10

who are just absolutely great

28:12

lawyers but they struggle in their

28:14

business and sometimes

28:16

they don't really like that idea

28:18

of having to be a businessman

28:21

. But what you've kind of proven

28:23

is that if you get a hold of all those business

28:25

processes , you have a lot more freedom

28:28

. It's not a

28:30

cage , it's actually a gateway .

28:33

Yes , absolutely , and part

28:36

of building that business is

28:38

identifying the things that

28:40

you love doing in the business and the things

28:42

that you just

28:44

are . Drudgery for you , that you drag

28:46

, you're not good at it sucks

28:49

the life out of you . So the goal is

28:51

to figure out systems

28:53

to delegate those areas to

28:55

someone else or minimize the amount of time

28:57

you have to spend in those areas so

29:00

you can really focus on the parts of the firm

29:02

that you are great

29:04

at and you love . So I've been able

29:06

to do that personally . It's taken

29:08

a lot of work , but I've gotten

29:11

there , so that's really the ultimate

29:13

goal .

29:14

I think that's great advice . It

29:16

certainly has been a pleasure to have you

29:18

on the podcast today , Troy , and it's

29:21

a pleasure to have you as a client

29:23

in our client family . I always hear great

29:25

things from your coaches and the folks

29:27

that are working with you that you know . Troy

29:29

really does approach this from

29:31

a business standpoint and he's a go-getter

29:34

, so just a joy to have you

29:36

here and have you in our client

29:38

family .

29:39

Yeah , no , I've really appreciated

29:42

just being a part of this

29:45

From the get go . You all have made

29:47

it easy . I'll give a shout out to Amber

29:49

. She's been great to work with

29:51

too , so I'm really happy

29:54

with just

29:56

how you all have set things up and

29:58

you all have great content

30:01

which messes with what

30:03

we've been doing , so it was just a great

30:05

show Awesome .

30:07

Okay , well , thank you so much , troy

30:09

. Thank you for being with us and until

30:11

next time , I'm Jennifer Goddard with

30:13

the Marketing LawCast . Be sure to subscribe

30:16

, like and share with your friends , and

30:19

we'll talk to you next week . Okay

30:23

, let me stop the recording

30:25

.

30:27

That's a wrap for today's episode and

30:29

a big thank you to our sponsor , QuidProQuo

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